Is 'no weapons' an option?

[Celdryn]

<p>I've heard conflicting things. Some people think I'm crazy for going barefisted, others say its the way to go. A third group said "avoid weapons unless you can get your hand on fabled ones."</p><p>My monk is level 44 and has maxed out his STR AA line. I put the rest of the points in AGI and STA to finish the 50 points for the brawler tree.</p><p>So, do I continue to avoid weapons?  I dont know if Im just getting the wrong kind, but every time I wield a weapon, my damage goes down A LOT.</p><p>So, I don't know who to believe. I've been playing the Monk for about a month now and before I hit 50 and start going on raids, I'd like to understand a bit more...so a little help would be greatly appreciated.</p>

[Gladiia]

<p>My monk has a closing time, and a twin calamity (70 legendary and 70 fabled) weapon stored in a backpack.  I still get more DPS bare fisted.  others here will tell you they get more with wepaons, but it seems they have EoF fabled weapons with fabled adorns on them.  That said, your doing the right thing not using weapons for now.</p>

[Khandor]

I've been struggling with this too since returning, I've always used weapons, but when I leveled my Monk I was playing long before AA's came out at all. And now I'm returning when the weapons I have are the Soulspur and the kara of the four winds (level 65 and 63 legendaries) and my AA spec is Int and Wis all the way down.. and I've tried going bare fisted and I coulda swore I did a tad bit more damage (like, 20 points per hit) but I really can't be sure since I don't have a parser. But to me with my equipment it didn't seem that big of a difference, but I hear otherwise.

[Aull]

<p>Well my cousin has a lvl 70 monk and he just flat out rocks barefisted!!! I cannot stress how awesome barefisted is especially for a monk. With all that haste and 96% chance to double attack plus makes your base autoattack damage higher I could see nothing else to use. At first he was shy to the whole barefisted approach, but now he can't see using anything else and is very pleased with the move. </p><p>I seen a monk that is set up with 4.4.8.8 strgth and 4.4.8.8.1 in intel, and with that set up once he gets his health below 30% and gets the bonus to crit more it is just flat outrageous damage. I must say it was a sight to behold. Yes he told me that he uses weapons just to work the skills up, but when on the raids he goes barefisted. Honestly, I feel that you should try it out and forget the weapons for now. </p><p>I believe that monks are probably the best all round class there is. I play a bruiser and he is cool to play as well, but since bruisers can't haste themselves like a monk the barefists are just not as powerful, but they it does help bruisers too. LOL now if a bruisers refresh timers on their combat abilities was lessened some they would be some nice dps too.   Thanks for your time and your posts.    Enjoy!!</p>

[Khandor]

heh, and that's another thing, just to get that bonus you gotta go to 30% health, I'm still having trouble hitting that % without dying from pulling too much aggro or something. My intercept button is hit a lot in groups. I'm gonna have to get myself a parser and compare unarmed to fist weapons myself and see.

[Kael Grace]

<p>I've been considering the same question, as a level 33, 42 aa monk.   I've got the str tree maxed and have started down the wis tree.   A few questions for you monk veterans:</p><p>Q1:   will the end line wis ability (crane flock?) add many more attacks through its 15 secs of double attack to the already 96% doubled barehanded attacks?   ??</p><p>Q2:   when you crit barehanded, is the crit level really all that high?    Say i had the endline Int ability for 100% crits below 30 health --    If I had some high damage range weapons, that would be a bunch of massive crits.   But I don't know how much a barehand crit is.  Anyone?</p><p>Q3:   I can currently get my haste up to 59% but that still leaves a 1.7 sec delay on the fists.   at level 70, how fast can you get the barefist attacks?  </p>

[mattmandude]

<cite>Gladiia@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>My monk has a closing time, and a twin calamity (70 legendary and 70 fabled) weapon stored in a backpack.  I still get more DPS bare fisted.  others here will tell you they get more with wepaons, but it seems they have EoF fabled weapons with fabled adorns on them.  That said, your doing the right thing not using weapons for now.</p><p> Humm, that's pretty interesting, because I leveled to 70 barefisted, and I got a noticeable amount of DPS increase when using a closing time and a fist of pain... and now I use scale wrapped baton/fist of pain (have a fist of bashing, but waiting to get the SoD weapon before I make the transition to 2.5 delay), and there is with out a doubt an increase in DPS...</p>I really think all just need to learn how to time your CA's... you'll want to actually pay attention to them since you'll be swinging more often (going barefisted acts like a 2-hander).And like it's been stated before,it's a great idea to level up to 70 using the STR AA, and then you want to get some nice fabled weapons to get more DPS.</blockquote>

[Couching]

The barefist is a 2h weapon, damage rating is about 60-63 (with 20dps you got from str line) depending on your strength.It's always easier to time CA on a 2 h weapons. Or losing less auto attack on 2h even you just spam your CAs.That's why some players who was lving up with str line will get less dps with 2 DW weapons at lv 70 since they have no experience how to time CAs between 2 weapons.In fact, with 53+ DR DW weapons, it beats barefist a lot in dps especially fighting yellow and orange mobs since we didn't have bare fist bonus on our offensive stance.

[Couching]

I did an experiment today. With  4 4 8 on str, sta and int line, with bare fist, I have only 1454 atk, 38 dps mod, I have average 539 dps on lv 50 epic guard, the hit ratio is 100%. (just auto attack)With same setting but changing to the twin calamities and closing time, I have 1577 atk, 18 dps mod, the average dps on the same lv 50 epic guard is 550 dps, the hit ratio is 100%.See, even with 100% hit ratio, the twin calamities and closing time is better, not to say, we will not get 100% hit ratio on blue to orange mobs. The bare fist really sucks on dps comparing to good legendary weapons combo not to say fabled.If you can't get better dps on legendary or fabled weapon combo, it's mainly because you didn't time your CA correctly and lose damages from auto attack.Str line sucks even for leveling up, if money isn't an issue, get a pair of master crafted weapons with adornments, you will have much better survivability in solo and better dps on yellow to orange mobs in group..

[Killerbee3000]

what you need to make weapons clearly better than barehanded is dropped ones with procs... cudgel of pain + ancient velium claws ftw... especially considering that you can slap a power procing adorn on it...

[x0rtrun]

Couching, the Str line isn't nearly as bad as you make it sound. You just have a hate on for it because you can't use it with weapons. For what it is, and what it allows you to do, it's actually very good. With it I'm getting a DPS mod, double attack, and a 700 dmg hit with a crushing debuff for 50 power. In group I parse between 700 and 1000 DPS while tanking in middle stance. When just DPSing I hit 800 to 1100. I'm nearly always in the top 5 of the parse in raids and top 3 in groups. And it didn't cost me a thing to get it. I've respeced to legendary dual wields and 2 handers, but it's either a close tie, or a clear victory for the Str line. And don't tell me I'm just missing out on auto-attacks either.

[Couching]

X0rtrunks, If you want to defend how good str line is, just say it, don't involve me as part of your reason.The reason why str line sucks is plain and simple. We don't get bare fist skill bonus in our offensive stance.Any none noob monk knows how important weapon skill is for hit ratio while fighting blue to orange mobs.Not to say, there isn't any proc on bare fist.I have even tested on lv 50 epic and I am really disappointed on str line comparing to closing time and twin calamities.I have everything listed of my test bench. What did you have to support your statement? Nothing.All what you said is that I am a hater of str line and you did better dps with str line than legendary weapons.I am here to share with monk community of my test result. You like str line? Fine, go for it, it's none of my business.You can have better dps without str line and you refuse to learn how to play this game effectively. It's your choice.But don't try to confuse others.EDIT: Moreover, we can get crushing, slashing and piercing from gears but not fist skill. I can have 437 crushing skill but only 350 fist skill in offensive with gear. The hit ratio between 437 and 350 is huge. Not to say, my test is on lv50 epic, I have 100% hit ratio with fist. Though, in realty, you will have less hit ratio on blue to orange mob with less weapon skill. If bare fist can't deal more damage with 100% hit ratio than closing time and twin calamities, how can it deal more damage with less hit ratio than closing time and twin calamities while fighting blue to orange mobs?

[x0rtrun]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have everything listed of my test bench. What did you have to support your statement? Nothing.All what you said is that I am a hater of str line and you did better dps with str line than legendary weapons.</blockquote>I have parses: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=384884" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=384884</a>And I'm working on some more.What do you have? Show me some actual data.All I'm saying is it doesn't suck as bad as you claim it is. At worst, it holds it's own, which is pretty good considering it's free.

[RoguePyro]

I've been following this thread and am interested in the opinions on this for a lvl 70.However, I'm only lvl 62, and am wanting to know which is best leveling up? Sadly, we're not all maxed out 70s. I know before that it was said stay bare fist until you find weapons that were rating 56+  or so, but with the new changes... what about the leveling monk? Sorry if this derails the original topic <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[x0rtrun]

Rogue - It would seem from parses that I've done that bare fists can be at least equal to legendary weapons. I'll be doing some parses with a pair of Closing Times so we'll see how they can compare. At about ~60gp each, they're probably the easiest nice legendary to obtain. I'd say if you have more AAs than money, go with Str and build up your other gear. If money isn't as tight, get some nice weapons with adornments.

[Couching]

<cite>x0rtrunks wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have everything listed of my test bench. What did you have to support your statement? Nothing.All what you said is that I am a hater of str line and you did better dps with str line than legendary weapons.</blockquote>I have parses: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=384884" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=384884</a>And I'm working on some more.What do you have? Show me some actual data.All I'm saying is it doesn't suck as bad as you claim it is. At worst, it holds it's own, which is pretty good considering it's free. </blockquote>Are you kidding me?I have parse as well in my post.  Do you have problem in reading?Moreover, your parse was comparing to a legendary 2h weapon.What I said is that fist is worst than a good legendary DW combo, now, you were trying to against my test by a legendary 2h weapon?In fact, it sucks since your test is a green mob. If your test is a blue to orange, you will miss a lot more with fist.For Rogue, fist sucks since you can't get any bonus from our offensive stance. Moreover, dps isn't everything to level up. If you solo a lot, a pair of mastercraft weapons with adornment is much better since you can get at least 200-300 more hp, 30+ str, 30+ agi with similar dps as fist. EDIT: Besides, even your test has proved that Bo of flowing blood is even or even better than str line. Why? Because if you don't have str line, you can get 16% Crane whirl. The average of CW is about 30 dps, not to say crane flock. Or you can spec to agi line with 12% haste on CAs.  Anything is much better than the 28 dps difference between bo staff and str line in your test.

[Killerbee3000]

i'd say for someone who cant make it past mastercrafted gear str line is the way to go.... but, with decent legen / fabled wepaons avalaible at the broker for low prices str is just not an option at lvl 70.. just my 2 cents though...

[RoguePyro]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>For Rogue, fist sucks since you can't get any bonus from our offensive stance. Moreover, dps isn't everything to level up. If you solo a lot, a pair of mastercraft weapons with adornment is much better since you can get at least 200-300 more hp, 30+ str, 30+ agi with similar dps as fist. </blockquote>The to hit bonus was something I had not really taken into consideration. I'm probably going to go ahead and get a pair of mastercrafted weapons tonight. I think I'll start a new thread to get opinions on other things..there's a lack of information on weapons and such for folks leveling up it seems. Thanks!

[jrolla777]

i posted this the other night when i was thinking about the bare-hand/fists skill and was told i was wrong when i said we should get +fists in off: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=386734" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=386734</a>

[Couching]

I think you are right since we have less atk with bare fist. Clearly, the atk is adopting fist skill rather than crushing, otherwise, the atk shouldn't be different between fist and crushing weapons.

[x0rtrun]

Don't forget that the Str line also has a rather substantial crushing debuff with presure point. Perhaps compensating for the lower fist skill (if it's even used at all). We really don't know what skill bare fists use. The lower attack rating could be from many things, and the fist skill in the skills window may just be a carry over with no real implication on game mechanics. Until I see a dev post explaining how it works it's hard to really say. I do not doubt that a weapon combo will end up being better than the Str line. That's not my argument. I'm merely saying that it holds its own against weapons AND it's free, which makes for a very attractive alternative to a leveling monk, since you can use the cash you would have spent on weapon upgrades on other gear. It may not be optimal damage, but it's certainly an option. You gotta give me that. Whether the str line would be better off modified in some way is an entirely different discussion. I'm not a Str line fanboy, i'm just playing devils advocate here. How 'bout rather than arguing with me, you work with me and provide some parses like I have in that other thread of orange etc mobs so we can see the difference. I'm going to redo my parses with the bo of flowing blood, a pair of closing times, and bare fists and we can see how they all compare again. If you could do the same with a higher mob, that would be really helpful. If you do, try and follow my original methodology so we can try and get some form of comparability. Then we can see from the data how the Str line compares to real weapons. It's one thing to believe and say something, it's another to actually see and know it.

[skimpy82]

<cite>x0rtrunks wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't forget that the Str line also has a rather substantial crushing debuff with presure point. Perhaps compensating for the lower fist skill (if it's even used at all). We really don't know what skill bare fists use. The lower attack rating could be from many things, and the fist skill in the skills window may just be a carry over with no real implication on game mechanics. Until I see a dev post explaining how it works it's hard to really say. I do not doubt that a weapon combo will end up being better than the Str line. That's not my argument. I'm merely saying that it holds its own against weapons AND it's free, which makes for a very attractive alternative to a leveling monk, since you can use the cash you would have spent on weapon upgrades on other gear. It may not be optimal damage, but it's certainly an option. You gotta give me that. Whether the str line would be better off modified in some way is an entirely different discussion. I'm not a Str line fanboy, i'm just playing devils advocate here. How 'bout rather than arguing with me, you work with me and provide some parses like I have in that other thread of orange etc mobs so we can see the difference. I'm going to redo my parses with the bo of flowing blood, a pair of closing times, and bare fists and we can see how they all compare again. If you could do the same with a higher mob, that would be really helpful. If you do, try and follow my original methodology so we can try and get some form of comparability. Then we can see from the data how the Str line compares to real weapons. It's one thing to believe and say something, it's another to actually see and know it.</blockquote>I have to agree with 'trunks statement that for the leveling monk where money is an issue, then str is definitely a nice free dps boost. That money I save from splurging on weapons, goes in to adept 3's and nicer armor/avoidance factors, allowing me to tank a bit better. My monk is only 36 right now, but has about 35-40 aa built up, can't remember the exact number. Anyhow, I can solo very well (I think) and I am still able to tank at a reasonable level (I feel) but I definitely think as I get higher up, and get more grouping chances, that I'll be replacing the fists/str line with gear and changing my AA's at that time.

[x0rtrun]

I did some more parses along the lines of the original ones in the thread i linked earlier. This time with a pair of closing times and came out like this: Spec'ed STR 4/8/8/8/2 and INT 4/4/8/3 Bo of Flowing Blood: 5405.02 / 15 = 360.34 Closing Time x2: 5864.26 / 15 = 390.95 Fists: 6618.46 / 15 = 441.23 I redid all the parses on the same mobs just to keep everything comparable. I was holding off on posting the results until I could get another set of parses against a higher con mob (at couching's suggestion) and then I was going to do another set of parses respecing to a more weapon-friendly build. But until then, you can see that fists at the very least can compete with those weapons. I'll post again when I have the rest of the parses done.

[Couching]

It is not a fair comparison since 30 points are wasted on str line. For better comparison, DW should be spec like int 448, wis 448, agi 448 or int 44862, wis 44872Either one will deal more dps than str 48882 int 4483.You will get about 35-40 dps from CW and about 40 extra dps from agi line from faster resue CA.Or you can spec 448 on int, wis and sta.You will get 35-40 dps from CW and 30 dps from mantis bolts. The total dps is higher than str 48882 and in 4483.

[x0rtrun]

That's why I'm going to respec tomorrow and rerun the parses to get a solid comparison. I'll spec for max passive dps since we're testing weapon damage only. CA casting haste would be nice for burst damage, but you're still constrained by your power pool. As it stands, fists are parsing 400-500 ish DPS. We'll see how weapons can compete when properly spec'd.

[TomB]

<p>Just to toss my two cents here as well. I have no parses atm but at level 59 currently. I've used Fists throughout leveling up to this point and with mostly Adept 3 skills I have been able to solo quite well and tank very well for my group. I solo ^^^ mobs 4 levels below me normally while remaining in mixed stance. I never use offensive as I can't see it being used for soloing exp mobs and I just use Def. when Group tanking. </p><p>I do not know what I'd do with weapons at this point...I do know a friend of mine has a bruiser specced differently of course but he out dps' me just by a hair with MC weapons with additional adornments. I guess he could solo better but he seems to be roughly on par with me. Also he is level 58 to my 59.</p><p>Also one thing I'd like to ask, I see many mentions of doing much better dps with weapons that take advantage of Offensive mode but what about mixed or defensive? Plus one should not forget the strength line gives plus 20 to dps naturally plus if you add in the ripost chance and the end line Chi which has been reduced to 10 minutes reuse, it's not too bad. </p><p>Maybe with some good weapons in mixed stance I'd solo better? Well I'm curious about that but not rdy to swap until around 65-70. </p><p>I'm specced all the way down Str and Int. I hear that one benifit to weapons is the crit damage will be for much more then the crit of fists which I guess is a tradeoff for the higher autodamage of fists?</p><p>Well not sure what I even contributed here but was bored at work and wanted to type something =).</p><p>Have a great day everyone!</p><p>Timmet on Nektulos....feel free to look me up and say hi, always looking for good groups and new friends.</p><p>Tom </p>

[mattmandude]

I don't see where the argument is, everyone has been saying/agreeing that fists are a good option for people unable to afford fabled weapons... and we've been saying that for a long time.

[RoguePyro]

Okay, how about the next logical question...when to switch? What do we look for? What weapon rating, proc, example and all... I'm very interested especially in the rating over the examples. I keep seeing Twin Calamities, soulfire kama, yada yada yada... I'm sure there's more out there than just 4 or 5 weapons that equal or beat fists with the Str AA on.

[mellowknees72]

<cite>RoguePyro wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've been following this thread and am interested in the opinions on this for a lvl 70.However, I'm only lvl 62, and am wanting to know which is best leveling up? Sadly, we're not all maxed out 70s. I know before that it was said stay bare fist until you find weapons that were rating 56+  or so, but with the new changes... what about the leveling monk? Sorry if this derails the original topic <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>My husband went with the STR line on his lowbie monk, and when I saw how well it worked for him, I re-spec'd into that line myself.</p><p>It worked really well for me levelling up - I spend a lot of time soloing or in a duo with one of his characters.  Once I hit 70, I found a really awesome weapon that I wanted to use, so I changed it up a bit and went with the AGI line instead.</p><p>Honestly, the main difference that I find between going bare-fisted with the STR line and using weapons is pretty much just a lack of stats that can be gained from the weapons.  Honestly, I never once felt like I was really missing out on much by not having those stats.  I didn't die more often or miss more often or anything really noticeable along those lines.  But then again, I'm an anti-social loner type.  A lack of stats might have more of an impact on someone who raids and parses and all of that.  I'm just happy punching stuff by myself or with my friends and I don't really care about what my exact DPS is...so, you know, that's where I'm coming from with my experience with the STR line. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[zaltar]

Since this is still on the table I`ll throw my 2 cents in also.I switched to str line around mid tiers and the difference was like night and day.I was emphasizing the wis line before that but was not happy with the results I got.The main things I really like are pressure point and chi.Having both of these abilities made a tremendous difference in my success.It`s amazing how fast I can do damage when chi is activated and the recast on pressure point makes it a very useful addition.It took a little getting use to not having my staff but the str line really delivers.

[Ramius613]

<cite>RoguePyro wrote:</cite><blockquote>Okay, how about the next logical question...when to switch? What do we look for? What weapon rating, proc, example and all... I'm very interested especially in the rating over the examples. I keep seeing Twin Calamities, soulfire kama, yada yada yada... I'm sure there's more out there than just 4 or 5 weapons that equal or beat fists with the Str AA on. </blockquote><p>Basic guideline for switching from fists to weapons, once you have a weapon that has a > ~60 DR (can someone please post the new DR since they changed with LU 38.)  While you've seen the same suggestions for weapons, there is a reason, that is about all we have for truly good fabled weapons.  Check out the Monk  Fabled gear post at the top of the monk forums.  It lists a lot of the gear that Monks can get (mostly KoS stuff).  EQ2flames also has a list in their monk forums for fabled gear as well from EoF.  All in all though there are maybe 10-15 decent monk fabled weapons in the game.</p><p>Also look for weapons that have the same delay, this will help with the timing of CAs between attacks, which helps with your DPS.</p><p>Procs that do damage are always good, + to crush/pierce/slash also are good.  Adornmentwise, this is kind of split, some say +crush/pierce/slash, while others recommend the proc for mana/hp.</p>

[x0rtrun]

Alright, my parsing is basically done now. Here's a quick run down of what I did:You can check out my gear and such from the other thread:<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=384884" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=384884</a> I parsed against both lvl 60 ^ drakes in the tenebrous tangle and lvl 67 ^ doomwings in the bonemire.I was in offensive stance with all buffs on including burning blaze. I had about 106 haste i believe. I only used auto attack.For fists i was Spec'ed STR 4/8/8/8/2 INT 4/4/8/3For weapons I was spec'ed STA 4/4/8 WIS 4/4/8 INT 4/4/8Weapons were Closing Time x2 and the Bo of Flowing BloodI did 15 rounds of combat with each weapon and averaged the results.<span style="font-family: courier new,courier;">          lvl60^    lvl67^Bo        436.07    412.70CT        443.87    422.12Fists     441.23    403.32Ideally I'd parse a lvl 71+ mob to continue the data points, but I think we can probably extrapolate it pretty well.The fists hold up very well against lower level mobs. So if you fight greens, you lose nothing.As the mob level increases, the effect of our lower fist skill becomes evident as the dps curve falls pretty sharply. This more than anything shows just how screwed over we are by having the fist skill capped so low and our stance not boosting it. If they fixed that, fists would remain viable much longer.We also see that the bo of flowing blood holds its own very well against the closing time versus higher conned mobs. 2hb seems to be alive and well.Other things to keep in mind that aren't shown in the numbers is the amount of damage I took. When spec'ed str/int I took far less damage most likely due to the parry and riposte skills. When spec'ed max DPS don't expect to be tanking very well (obviously but it's important to keep in mind). Soloing would probably be much easier if you balanced offensive/defensive AAs.I also really missed having pressure point. The CAs granted from sta/wis/int are really weak by comparison.Now these tests aren't definitive, but they are a valid comparison. In my opinion, the fist option remains viable right up until the end. If you can't afford fabled or adornments, feel free to save your cash and go with fists. Especially if you do a lot of tanking of lower conned mobs. The possible 5% bonus to riposte and 360 parry is awesome. Personally, I'll probably end up going back to fists if I find I'm taking a lot more damage when tanking. Also consider that the expansion will be increasing the number of AAs in each tree by 20, allowing many more combinations to become possible.EDIT: I updated the BO DPS figure after redoing the parses. From 426 to 412. I think this is a bit more accurate and makes more sense in relation to the other data points.</span>

[Couching]

Nice test.It pretty much matches what we have discussed, fist is fine in solo green mobs/none heroic mobs but not blue to orange heroic or epic mobs.For level capped players, it's pretty easy to get bo staff or closing time from Unrest. I haven't been in any pick up group which isn't NBG.

[mattmandude]

<cite>x0rtrunks wrote:</cite><blockquote><i>Alright, my parsing is basically done now. Here's a quick run down of what I did:You can check out my gear and such from the other thread:<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=384884" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=384884</a> I parsed against both lvl 60 ^ drakes in the tenebrous tangle and lvl 67 ^ doomwings in the bonemire.I was in offensive stance with all buffs on including burning blaze. I had about 106 haste i believe. I only used auto attack.For fists i was Spec'ed STR 4/8/8/8/2 INT 4/4/8/3For weapons I was spec'ed STA 4/4/8 WIS 4/4/8 INT 4/4/8Weapons were Closing Time x2 and the Bo of Flowing BloodI did 15 rounds of combat with each weapon and averaged the results.<span style="font-family: courier new,courier;">          lvl60^    lvl67^Bo        436.07    426.85CT        443.87    422.12Fists     441.23    403.32Ideally I'd parse a lvl 71+ mob to continue the data points, but I think we can probably extrapolate it pretty well.The fists hold up very well against lower level mobs. So if you fight greens, you lose nothing.As the mob level increases, the effect of our lower fist skill becomes evident as the dps curve falls pretty sharply. This more than anything shows just how screwed over we are by having the fist skill capped so low and our stance not boosting it. If they fixed that, fists would remain viable much longer.We also see that the bo of flowing blood holds its own very well against the closing time versus higher conned mobs. 2hb seems to be alive and well.Other things to keep in mind that aren't shown in the numbers is the amount of damage I took. When spec'ed str/int I took far less damage most likely due to the parry and riposte skills. When spec'ed max DPS don't expect to be tanking very well (obviously but it's important to keep in mind). Soloing would probably be much easier if you balanced offensive/defensive AAs.I also really missed having pressure point. The CAs granted from sta/wis/int are really weak by comparison.Now these tests aren't definitive, but they are a valid comparison. In my opinion, the fist option remains viable right up until the end. If you can't afford fabled or adornments, feel free to save your cash and go with fists. Especially if you do a lot of tanking of lower conned mobs. The possible 5% bonus to riposte and 360 parry is awesome. Personally, I'll probably end up going back to fists if I find I'm taking a lot more damage when tanking. Also consider that the expansion will be increasing the number of AAs in each tree by 20, allowing many more combinations to become possible.</span></i><span style="font-family: courier new,courier;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I'm a little confused by the AA thing, they're adding to the cap for each tree so you can add 70 in the KoS line and 70 in the EoF line? Does that mean the cap is being raised to 140 AA?? If that's the case, that would be great. </span></span></span></blockquote>

[x0rtrun]

WRT AA points, that is indeed the case. Check the dev tracker for a post by aerelik that confirms it. He also mentions that spell consolidation will not be in the expansion and reiterates that we will be getting (almost) all of our spells upgraded in t8 as well as a brand new spell at 80.

[Almeric_CoS]

<p>Pressure Point is really worth re-visiting.  Currently I'm AGI/INT down to the endline powers in a tank build, and  I've considered using Achievements 51-70 in the Stamina line to get the extra avoidance bonuses.  Mantis Star's stamina debuff is also really handy as it'll take a big chunk of max hitpoints off a mob, but maxing out Pressure Point's crushing debuff might be even better.  Could use the new 20 points (once earned) to go 4 8 in STR and 4 4 in STA....lead a fight with Mantis Star, immediately follow up with Pressure Point, and subsequently beat the living tar out the mob.</p><p>As for the rest of the STR line, its future utility really depends on whether or not the Kunark devs are paying attention to it.  STR was great during KoS, but Faydwer upped the weapon standards and STR line never got adjusted to compensate.  I still think it performs very strongly, and the riposte bonus LOOKS to be uncontested avoidance, which is always extremely helpful.  Losing 20 DPS might be worth it if you're getting hit that much less.</p>

[BChizzle]

<cite>x0rtrunks wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-family: courier new,courier;">Other things to keep in mind that aren't shown in the numbers is the amount of damage I took. When spec'ed str/int I took far less damage most likely due to the parry and riposte skills. When spec'ed max DPS don't expect to be tanking very well (obviously but it's important to keep in mind). Soloing would probably be much easier if you balanced offensive/defensive AAs.</span></blockquote>This is completely inaccurate.  By going a DPS build you are able to kill faster thus limiting the amount of times you get hit and also the amount of time you are in combat without your temps up. 

[x0rtrun]

Why is it inaccurate? You're going on a logical assumption that the data doesn't seem to support. You may think that you can kill the mob a lot faster with pure dps spec, but in reality the fights lasted very close to the same amount of time. between 30-45 seconds. The fights spec'ed fists took on average 35 secs, but i took far less damage. I only ever got into orange. When speced DPS I was routinely into the red after each fight and even had to mend a couple times to keep from dying. Maybe if I had been burning through the mob with CAs it wouldn't be as pronounced, but you really do lose a lot of defensive stats from not going down further in the AA lines. For instance, I lost about 13% parry skill when spec'ed dps. I'd recommend picking two lines and going down until the defensive stats rather than spreading equally into 3 lines, unless all you do is DPSing in group or raid.

[x0rtrun]

<cite>Almeric@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Pressure Point is really worth re-visiting.  Currently I'm AGI/INT down to the endline powers in a tank build, and  I've considered using Achievements 51-70 in the Stamina line to get the extra avoidance bonuses.  Mantis Star's stamina debuff is also really handy as it'll take a big chunk of max hitpoints off a mob, but maxing out Pressure Point's crushing debuff might be even better.  Could use the new 20 points (once earned) to go 4 8 in STR and 4 4 in STA....lead a fight with Mantis Star, immediately follow up with Pressure Point, and subsequently beat the living tar out the mob.</p><p>As for the rest of the STR line, its future utility really depends on whether or not the Kunark devs are paying attention to it.  STR was great during KoS, but Faydwer upped the weapon standards and STR line never got adjusted to compensate.  I still think it performs very strongly, and the riposte bonus LOOKS to be uncontested avoidance, which is always extremely helpful.  Losing 20 DPS might be worth it if you're getting hit that much less.</p></blockquote>I'd love to be able to lead with Presure Point, except that it is a fists only ability. Meaning you'd either have to stick all with fists (maxing out double attack to make it worthwhile) or have to set up a macro to un-equip your weapons, cast the ca, and re-equip your weapons. The delay from in combat equipment changes might make any gains moot.At this point, to avoid an entire AA line from going obsolete in RoK, the devs either have to fix the fists skill cap and stance bonuses so it can compete, or completely alter the line to work with weapons. Maybe cripple it by 50-75% or so when you have weapons equipped.

[BChizzle]

<cite>x0rtrunks wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why is it inaccurate? You're going on a logical assumption that the data doesn't seem to support. You may think that you can kill the mob a lot faster with pure dps spec, but in reality the fights lasted very close to the same amount of time. between 30-45 seconds. The fights spec'ed fists took on average 35 secs, but i took far less damage. I only ever got into orange. When speced DPS I was routinely into the red after each fight and even had to mend a couple times to keep from dying. Maybe if I had been burning through the mob with CAs it wouldn't be as pronounced, but you really do lose a lot of defensive stats from not going down further in the AA lines. For instance, I lost about 13% parry skill when spec'ed dps. I'd recommend picking two lines and going down until the defensive stats rather than spreading equally into 3 lines, unless all you do is DPSing in group or raid.</blockquote>Wrong.  Most gear gives bonus to parry deflection def etc and I am not even talking fabled here.  With the avoidance curve the amount you are losing in your aa trees is of very little consequence vs cutting out 10-20 seconds of being hit.  Take a look at the actually difference, what is it 5-7% avoid?  Also when you factor in mit stance and tsunami the less time you spend fighting without those up the less you are going to get pounded.  Even with your own stats (13%) lets say a 35 second fight vs a 45 second fight that represents an almost 30% increase in duration of the fight which would mean you would need the aa stats to increase your avoidance almost 30% to even it out.  This doesn't even begin to factor in the fact we can chain our stifle, daze, stuns which will dramatically reduce our damage on a short fight.

[x0rtrun]

Let me be clear: These parses are from me standing still just auto-attacking. The amount of damage I took was greater when using weapons than it was when using fists. Fight duration was pretty random between all encounters, but from the DPS numbers we see that on average, the higher the DPS, the shorter the fight, since total damage stays the same. This is fact. And the only thing I can show. You're still making the assumption that a higher DPS and shorter fight duration will directly mitigate the effects of lower defensive abilities. You'd have to do a lot more parses of real world fights over and over comparing total received damage to total DPS output. Until then it's just a theory based on assumptions and anecdotal evidence. However, in a real world situation where you're using all your abilities to win the fight it might not make as much of a difference especially in relatively short fights. In longer fights where your CAs are cycling a few times, you stand to take a lot more damage while you stand there auto-attacking waiting for your abilities to refesh. In really short fights you're right. You can totally dominate the mob in under 30 seconds and your avoidance won't matter much because the mob barely has a chance to take a swing. This is fine if all you do is quick solo stuff. Again, it also depends on what your role of choice is. If you aren't tanking, more dps is always better, but if you are tanking, I'd rather have more defensive skills to keep me alive, especially since the loss of DPs is very small compared to the potential gains. You can disagree with me, but to come out and say I'm flat out wrong is kinda silly. We both have valid points, but it's just a matter of what context they are valid in.

[BChizzle]

<cite>x0rtrunks wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let me be clear: These parses are from me standing still just auto-attacking. The amount of damage I took was greater when using weapons than it was when using fists. Fight duration was pretty random between all encounters, but from the DPS numbers we see that on average, the higher the DPS, the shorter the fight, since total damage stays the same. This is fact. And the only thing I can show. You're still making the assumption that a higher DPS and shorter fight duration will directly mitigate the effects of lower defensive abilities. You'd have to do a lot more parses of real world fights over and over comparing total received damage to total DPS output. Until then it's just a theory based on assumptions and anecdotal evidence. However, in a real world situation where you're using all your abilities to win the fight it might not make as much of a difference especially in relatively short fights. In longer fights where your CAs are cycling a few times, you stand to take a lot more damage while you stand there auto-attacking waiting for your abilities to refesh. In really short fights you're right. You can totally dominate the mob in under 30 seconds and your avoidance won't matter much because the mob barely has a chance to take a swing. This is fine if all you do is quick solo stuff. Again, it also depends on what your role of choice is. If you aren't tanking, more dps is always better, but if you are tanking, I'd rather have more defensive skills to keep me alive, especially since the loss of DPs is very small compared to the potential gains. You can disagree with me, but to come out and say I'm flat out wrong is kinda silly. We both have valid points, but it's just a matter of what context they are valid in.</blockquote>You are wrong and you don't have a valid point.  First please show me a solo fight that lasts longer than 20-30 seconds.  Second show me non raid heroic fight that lasts that long outside of some end named in instances.  Our avoidance is contested and we are already on the high fast degrading end of the avoidance curve when we are offensive stance let alone defensive, meaning the very little you can add from your aa's amounts to pretty much nothing while the dps you get from craneflock crits etc amounts to a huge difference in dps.Your whole argument about standing still using auto attack to kill stuff as the basis for making the claim monks should take the parry and riposte aa's lacks in actual application because monks tank through disabling the mobs they are fighting not just avoidance.

[faxoff]

replying directly to the first post, the answer is YES! your information isn't far from accurate either, there are a select few legendary weapons which are good enough to use over barehand spec but otherwise, you are best going 448 str/agi/int for the recast reduction (this is actually pretty big), the double attack when barehand, and the melee crit. for a list of select few legendary weapons to use once you get to 70 send me a tell (See my sig) and i will list a few good ones i have seen/use. its not the weapons tier tag (leg fabled treasured ect...), its the damage stats on the weapon that make it good, like high end damage with a lot of melee crit, delay, ect... . just because it says legendary doesnt mean you dont want to use it. just a tip though, avoid weapons period, with a delay of 1.6 or lower, if you can help it. with monk haste usually clocking in at 100 self buffed at level 70, your swing time is faster than the amount of time it takes for you to use a combat art, thus causing you to loose dps when hitting certain combat arts which hit for less than auto attack damage unless timed properly with your delay/swingsanother good place to look is the channel crushbone.allmonks (this is the world wide monk channel, you dont need to type crushbone if you are on that server). im always in there when im online so if you ask a question im almost gauranteed to see it

[x0rtrun]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>x0rtrunks wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let me be clear: These parses are from me standing still just auto-attacking. The amount of damage I took was greater when using weapons than it was when using fists. Fight duration was pretty random between all encounters, but from the DPS numbers we see that on average, the higher the DPS, the shorter the fight, since total damage stays the same. This is fact. And the only thing I can show. You're still making the assumption that a higher DPS and shorter fight duration will directly mitigate the effects of lower defensive abilities. You'd have to do a lot more parses of real world fights over and over comparing total received damage to total DPS output. Until then it's just a theory based on assumptions and anecdotal evidence. However, in a real world situation where you're using all your abilities to win the fight it might not make as much of a difference especially in relatively short fights. In longer fights where your CAs are cycling a few times, you stand to take a lot more damage while you stand there auto-attacking waiting for your abilities to refesh. In really short fights you're right. You can totally dominate the mob in under 30 seconds and your avoidance won't matter much because the mob barely has a chance to take a swing. This is fine if all you do is quick solo stuff. Again, it also depends on what your role of choice is. If you aren't tanking, more dps is always better, but if you are tanking, I'd rather have more defensive skills to keep me alive, especially since the loss of DPs is very small compared to the potential gains. You can disagree with me, but to come out and say I'm flat out wrong is kinda silly. We both have valid points, but it's just a matter of what context they are valid in.</blockquote>You are wrong and you don't have a valid point.  First please show me a solo fight that lasts longer than 20-30 seconds.  Second show me non raid heroic fight that lasts that long outside of some end named in instances.  Our avoidance is contested and we are already on the high fast degrading end of the avoidance curve when we are offensive stance let alone defensive, meaning the very little you can add from your aa's amounts to pretty much nothing while the dps you get from craneflock crits etc amounts to a huge difference in dps.Your whole argument about standing still using auto attack to kill stuff as the basis for making the claim monks should take the parry and riposte aa's lacks in actual application because monks tank through disabling the mobs they are fighting not just avoidance.</blockquote>Wow, I'm done with you. You're obviously 100% right. I'm sorry for ever thinking something you don't. I am worthless. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> quit being a [I cannot control my vocabulary].If you think there's no point to taking any defensive AAs that's your opinion. It doesn't make you right though. Let me put it to you this way. I tank a lot. I don't have Tier 1 DPS. No matter what I'm spec'ed I probably won't be the main major damage contributor for my group if it's a reasonably well put together group. As a tank, it's my job staying alive. In my COMPLETELY VALID OPINION I believe that doing defensive will help me stay alive more than the few extra DPS I could wring out from AAs. You are welcome to disagree with me, but I don't see a Developer tag on you, so you're really in no position to tell me I'm wrong.

[Skai]

<cite>x0rtrunks wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-family: courier new,courier;">As the mob level increases, the effect of our lower fist skill becomes evident as the dps curve falls pretty sharply. This more than anything shows just how screwed over we are by having the fist skill capped so low and our stance not boosting it. If they fixed that, fists would remain viable much longer.</span></blockquote>I'm curious as to where do we know that "crushing" doesn't affect fist skills? Mousing over the crushing skill indicates that it affects fists and the fact that the atk stat changes depending on the stance seems to indicate the same thing.

[mattmandude]

<p>Any plus crushing doesn't affect fists, and it has something to do with the fists skill being part of the old combat system, and when the revamp came around with crushing/piercing/slashing, fists weren't applied to either. I may not be exactly right on the details, but it's something like that.</p><p> Also from experiance, back when I was leveling up with fists, I specifically remember having a hell of a time hitting white-organge heroics. And if you look further back in the topic, one of the tests shows that fists+offensive stance lost a lot of DPS to weapons+offensive stance. The reason being crushing not affecting fists =)</p>

[Couching]

We have fist skill along with crushing, slashing, and piercing in our persona window. Not to say, when you use your fist, your atk drops a lot.

[Skai]

So it's a bug that the description of the crushing skill says it includes fists and that changing stances around change the attack stat?And no offense to the person who did the parse earlier in this thread (certainly more than I have done) but 15 rounds of combat is a very small sample to draw conclusions with.

[Couching]

I would say it's a description bug since our atk drops a lot with fist. It implies that atk is calculated by fist skill rather than crushing.

[Skai]

I would be curious if xortrunks(spelling?) could post his atk number with fist and with closing time.  In all honesty, I'm more inclined to believe that the 125 drop in atk you observed earlier in the thread are just the results of the calamities having an higher innate atk.

[BChizzle]

<cite>x0rtrunks wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Wow, I'm done with you. You're obviously 100% right. I'm sorry for ever thinking something you don't. I am worthless. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> quit being a [I cannot control my vocabulary].If you think there's no point to taking any defensive AAs that's your opinion. It doesn't make you right though. Let me put it to you this way. I tank a lot. I don't have Tier 1 DPS. No matter what I'm spec'ed I probably won't be the main major damage contributor for my group if it's a reasonably well put together group. As a tank, it's my job staying alive. In my COMPLETELY VALID OPINION I believe that doing defensive will help me stay alive more than the few extra DPS I could wring out from AAs. You are welcome to disagree with me, but I don't see a Developer tag on you, so you're really in no position to tell me I'm wrong.</blockquote>I don't think you are worthless, but you are wrong.  And I don't need a developer tag, they obviously don't play monk so most players qualify better to speak on the issue.  Now as far as u wanting defensive aa's to live longer that is fine, I was just saying your statement that it is 'better' to have them is completely and utterly false.  But I am pretty sure once you play your monk a little longer than a month at 70 and start to get going you will come to the same conclusion.

[x0rtrun]

Skai - 15 fights is enough to show a pattern. The exact numbers might change a bit with more fights, but the pattern probably wouldn't. The pattern is what's important anyway, since the numbers will vary depending on gear, stats, etc etc. There are several ways they could get around the fist skill thing if they so chose. They could simply eliminate the fist skill all together and have it use crushing.They could fix the cap and add some +fists skill items. They could change fists from simply being barehanded to having actual fist wrap weapon items that have stats and use either crushing skill or a fixed fist skill. This would itemize fists giving us back stats, and bring it in line with other weapon options.But more likely, they'll just leave it like it is, and it'll be a semi useful alternative for broke leveling monks, which I guess is better than nothing.

[mattmandude]

<p>Over the summer when they made the change to the strength line so you didn't need to use weapons, they truly were headed in the right direction. It was just that the bonues you got in the line were [Removed for Content] near worthless due to how much points you'd put into them (any less and it was waisted points, fill the line, and they were still waisted).</p><p>Unfortunately, they didn't boost up the line afterwards, they just removed what they changed completely and put the old system in =/ Which makes me sad, because they had the right idea...</p><p> But now there's no word about them revamping the STR line at all =(</p><p> Maybe if we all logged in to test and did a /feedback stating the above</p>

[x0rtrun]

The only time I could feasibly see an AA system revamp coming would be if things get a little more unbalanced after RoK and they have time when they finally do spell consolidation. Another 20 points in the tree will help out a lot because you'll be able to actually get more of the lower useful defensive abilities. This seems odd to me for a tank class. If we go down three lines we can get 3 offensive abilities, but to do the same with the defensive abilities you can only go down 2 lines before you run out of points.

[RoguePyro]

You know, we need to get this stickied..or better yet, someone should start a new one and copy in the relevant points. I'd do it but I know I wouldn't maintain it. This question gets asked too much for it to just be addressed on each new thread...a stickied one would work best. Any volunteers?

[x0rtrun]

it's being rolled into an updated FAQ as we speak.

[RoguePyro]

Hah, with a link to this post I'm betting. Thanks trunks

[NeVeRLi]

I think if you have the gold to spend then using fists is not good ideal, you miss out on the adornments and imbuements, and also you lose alot stats.

[x0rtrun]

Primarius, yeah that's kind of the point. Not everyone has the cash for adornments and fabled. I personally can't afford any t7 adornments or fabled weapons. They're about 3 or 4 times more expensive than i could afford. For casual players who lack the cash/time, the str line is extremely attractive.

[Couching]

No offense, but the closing time, the weapon you have tested and compared with bare fist, is about 70g in crushbone. For t7 treasure adornment, it's less than 20g as well.There isn't any reason that a lv 70 brawler can't afford those weapons and adornments.For a casual player, wis and int lines are a much better choice than str with int or str with wis lines for soloing and grouping.You can get 12% uncontested avoidance from str line but it's less efficient for monk with int and wis line.Even you get hit more without the extra avoidance from str line, hit tsunami and crane flock with extra 75% critical from int line final ability, you can kill harder mobs/named than having str line.

[ottugi]

I'm not sure why cost is such an issue. From just harvesting, rares that are most common are rare pelts.Fuel cost to make a mc will be less than 10g whole lot less if lower than T7.

[RoguePyro]

So how we looking post-ROK? Personally I'm still using Str line and fists..found absolutely no weapons yet.<div></div><div>(And bump for informational purposes)</div>

[Gladiia]

<p>Someone some while back told me the reason I did more damage with the str line over a fabled and a legendary dual wield weapons was because I wasn't timing my attacks good enough.  I think they were right.  With RoK out, I grabbed on of the 72 2h MC weapons.  6 second delay.  Aside from the lack of procs, the weapon was marginally better than the twin calamity and the closing time.  Still the procs on the dual wielders I would have to say made them better.  Despite....I do more damage with the MC weapon than I did with the str line.</p><p>So I guess it really is about how well you time your CAs.  Props to those that can time a 0.95 (or less with agi line) second CA cycle with a 1.0 -1.1  second swing speed on dual wield weapons - I don't get how you do it without losing damage from lack of CAs.  I couldn't find a feasable way to get haste high enough to bring attack speed on dual wield weapons to less than the 0.95.</p>

[Kaleyen]

I tested out the STR line and found I lost 200-300 DPS when using the STR mob.  This test was done against yellow standard mobs, I fought against 10 mobs and took the average.The weapons I was using at the time were the Fists of Bashing and Fists of Pain...two weapons you can find on the broker.

[RoguePyro]

We've already found that the two fists will beat STR in dps at 70 and all... the question now is what about higher? What level were you for the test, and what were the mobs?

[Kaleyen]

76 killing level 78 mobs.  All mobs in the test were 78.

[x0rtrun]

I bet any money that if the mobs have been even con or lower the fists would have performed equal or better.

[Gladiia]

<cite>RoguePyro wrote:</cite><blockquote>We've already found that the two fists will beat STR in dps at 70 and all... the question now is what about higher? What level were you for the test, and what were the mobs?</blockquote>My most recent was at 72 against 72-74 mobs. 

[RoguePyro]

Yes I'm reviving this dead horse again. I'm planning on putting together a post thats sticky worthy since this is a question that crops up every day or two and I think needs to have a seperate note up top. <div></div><div>Anyone have anything to add now days, since we've thoroughly explored RoK and are epic weapon equipped? (Well some are)</div><div></div><div>So far, after all the info thats gone back and forth it seems the consensus has become that Str is a good option for leveling up, unless you want to take the time/money to acquire top fabled/legendary weapons for your tier. </div><div></div><div>Now the question is where is the break even point NOW? Upper 60s, or is it upper 70s now? Personally I'm sticking with Str until I get my epic done, then plan to respec out and equip epic and fist of bashing until I get something better, or finish SoD. </div><div></div>

[Ocello]

Has anyone PROVEN yet that the barehanded uses the fists skill yet or otherwise?  It only makes sense to me that when you use your barehands and you get the skill-up message across the screen that says "You have increased your crushing 370/375" (or whatever) that they do indeed use the crushing skill, not fists.  Have you ever seen Fists skill up?  No, because it uses crushing, simply put.Also, if you look at brawler weapons, such as the soulfire and the epic, it does say "Fists" at the very top, below the stats but above the damage and delay.  Pretty sure the fists skill is on the persona window to simply give brawlers the ability to use these special "fists" items, whereas no one else can./bow

[x0rtrun]

<cite>Ocello wrote:</cite><blockquote>Has anyone PROVEN yet that the barehanded uses the fists skill yet or otherwise?  It only makes sense to me that when you use your barehands and you get the skill-up message across the screen that says "You have increased your crushing 370/375" (or whatever) that they do indeed use the crushing skill, not fists.  Have you ever seen Fists skill up?  No, because it uses crushing, simply put.Also, if you look at brawler weapons, such as the soulfire and the epic, it does say "Fists" at the very top, below the stats but above the damage and delay.  Pretty sure the fists skill is on the persona window to simply give brawlers the ability to use these special "fists" items, whereas no one else can./bow</blockquote>This is totally possible, but there's no way to prove anything other than to have a dev come and tell us how it works. I like your explanation though and think it's probably correct. You don't get fist skill ups, but it does increase as you level.

[Solu]

Proof not so much but eveidence yes.  If you bounce between defensive and offensive stances which decrease/increase crushing... unarmed fist miss more often vs rarely miss.  So more crush reduces my misses while increasing my to-hit.  I'd say thats evidence if not proof that unarmed fists use crushing.

[Tuda]

<cite>RoguePyro wrote:</cite><blockquote><b>Yes I'm reviving this dead horse again. I'm planning on putting together a post thats sticky worthy since this is a question that crops up every day or two and I think needs to have a seperate note up top.</b>  <div></div><div>Anyone have anything to add now days, since we've thoroughly explored RoK and are epic weapon equipped? (Well some are)</div><div></div><div>So far, after all the info thats gone back and forth it seems the consensus has become that Str is a good option for leveling up, unless you want to take the time/money to acquire top fabled/legendary weapons for your tier. </div><div></div><div>Now the question is where is the break even point NOW? Upper 60s, or is it upper 70s now? Personally I'm sticking with Str until I get my epic done, then plan to respec out and equip epic and fist of bashing until I get something better, or finish SoD. </div><div></div></blockquote><p>As a new monk on the block, I am finding that many stickys here are not maintained or updated anymore since 2007 (many well before the last GU / expansion - which makes me wonder if they are out of date, are the OP`s long Gone from Monkish things, or eq2 all together? </p><p>I wont know if its out dated until go through the content myself - I am not a quality "sticky thread" writter so I am glad to see some monks of higher tier still wanting to freshen up this place for us youngins.</p>

[Teyaha]

<cite>Solude wrote:</cite><blockquote>Proof not so much but eveidence yes.  If you bounce between defensive and offensive stances which decrease/increase crushing... unarmed fist miss more often vs rarely miss.  So more crush reduces my misses while increasing my to-hit.  I'd say thats evidence if not proof that unarmed fists use crushing.</blockquote><p>this, combined with their awesome monk specific animations and +5 crushing, seems to make frogloks the ideal race for min/maxers.</p><p> i would imagine pairing it up with a warden or dirge who also increases crushing would help tremendously with bare fist dmg?</p>

[mattmandude]

I'm sorry guys, but I'm still a firm believer that the strength line is a waist of time at level cap. Especially since the hand of serenity is so easily obtained. The line sucks. I don't care that poor/handicapped monks like it, it's been useless every minute of my playing after like the 20th day (when I hit 70).

[Solu]

Well if you can tell me a of a weapon that can match my fists that you can get solo or for little coin along the way to 80 I'm all ears.  Everytime I drop STR for AGI or STA with weapons I can get on my own or from the broker my dps drops like a stone.  STR/WIS/INT for now, STR/WIS/INT/x come 70.