Question for the guards

[Buzzing]

<p>I really don't want a big debate about what is the better tank class.... I have argued with so many it isn't funny anymore.</p><p>I am my guilds raid tank, I am a pali and granted we don't have a full raid force as of yet so have not been able to try anything into EoF (x2 in cmm aside) I can two or three group most everything in KoS and have been doing ok for our little guild.</p><p>My question is (and please don't abreviate =( I am a pali =P) what is the real reason people say you are the uber tanks. I know there is a temp buff that gives Mit and if you are sta line you can get some mean double attacks for your agro.</p><p>Am I really doomed to never see the hardest raids simply for being a pali?</p>

[lCUBANOl]

basically

[Yourbestfriend]

Paladins are a terrible [Removed for Content] class.

[Ep]

pally has nothing to aid them in tanking, no spells geared towards tanking no ca's nothing. a pally just stands there and hope he doesn't die. guardians control spike dmg, which none of the other 5 tanking classes can do, well honestly brawlers will never be considered an epic tanking class and unless a guild cannot find 1 of the many hundreds of guards or even a zerker on thier server, they'll grumble and take a crusader tank. of course if your a guild leader and a crusader thats really the only way any guild would ever suffer the indignity of having a crusader tank for them.pure and simply sure other classes can almost sorta do it, but will never compare in terms to how well a guardian can control spike dmg.

[Tyrion]

<p>It's amusing the Guardian class is defined almost entirely by what DoF introduced.</p><p>Tower of Stone and Reinforcement blow any other tank's skils out of the water. *shrugs*</p><p>For the OP though, you can do it, and if you want to MT, of course you can. All fights "would" be easier with a Guardian, that's all. If you're a skilled player and know how to play a tank, you could pick up any of the six tanking classes and shine, so don't think it's all over just because you're a crusader. Heh, if possible, the best thing you could do would be to level up a Guardian to level 70, or at least play a level 70 Guardian for a while, then you'd notice the differences.</p>

[Barok]

<p>yes you will always be less than a guardian for raid content. the guardian is built for raid tanking plain and simple you are not. sounds like your guild is a casual style raiding guild so you will do fine as a pali i would think . only problems i would see is when your guild gets to full blown raid setup and you head to the tougher zones. that is when a guardian shines. the CA's we have are built for raiding.</p><p>BUT...</p><p>pali's excell at thing we do not. imo its hard to beat a crusader class in group/instance running. good tanking abilities , fair dps , superior agro management , and in general a fun class to play. dont get me wrong i love my guardian but when away from the MT setup we dont really shine as much and have to work a little harder to do our job.</p><p>all in all . id say play what makes you happy and as long as you can get the job done play a pali. you sound like you really enjoy your pali so stick with it. as your guild grows pick up a guardian that knows the class well and let them MT and you go to OT/MA .</p>

[Buzzing]

<p>Well it's nice to see I get the same old "I'm a guard you suck" responce here too. I know you have a couple temp buffs but honestly we actually have things that will help that people overlook from aa and other aspects. Thanks for the help and hope to see you guys again some time.</p>

[Kinesthesia]

Buzzing,I had the pleasure of joining a recent Deathtoll raid of yours with one of my alts.  Please feel free to send me a tell in game some time, I'm usually on my Guard (Celonglaer) or my Ranger (Celebros) and I would be glad to answer your question.

[Dragonlancer]

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well it's nice to see I get the same old "I'm a guard you suck" responce here too. I know you have a couple temp buffs but honestly we actually have things that will help that people overlook from aa and other aspects. Thanks for the help and hope to see you guys again some time.</p></blockquote>Perhaps you should make a guardian toon, test drive it awhile, and compare the toons. It seems you came here to our forums looking for an answer and you got it, but it seems you did not like the answer.

[Bantel]

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>My question is what is the real reason people say you are the uber tanks.</p></blockquote><p>When tanking the hardest encounters, it's the spike damage that kills the tank. We have some nice tools to manage those spikes, <b>none of which can be interrupted</b>. Here are some commonly used ones. There are more.</p><p>Tower of Stone - absorbs 3 attacks</p><p>Block - AA that absorbs 1 attack</p><p>Dragoon's Reflexes - AA 100% parry for 12 seconds</p><p>Two very strong short term mit buffs.</p><p> Can you tank anything in the game as a Paladin? Probably. It may take a little longer to beat a given encounter, as you will take more deaths while learning the encounter (managing that spike damage).</p><p>The real truth is that perception IS reality. The perception of most players is that Guardians are the preferred MT, therefore Guardians ARE the preferred MT.</p>

[Buzzing]

<cite>Dragonlancer99 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well it's nice to see I get the same old "I'm a guard you suck" responce here too. I know you have a couple temp buffs but honestly we actually have things that will help that people overlook from aa and other aspects. Thanks for the help and hope to see you guys again some time.</p></blockquote>Perhaps you should make a guardian toon, test drive it awhile, and compare the toons. It seems you came here to our forums looking for an answer and you got it, but it seems you did not like the answer. </blockquote><p>Kind of...</p><p>I came in hopes of a thoughtful reply; one that could explain those buffs or even if the avoid you get is better off some how. Anything besides the same old "you blow because your a pali" explination I always get. I know that a guard was designed more to be the MT then a pali class. What I really want to know is how? I have looked at self buffed Mit, avoid, resists, HP and they are the same as me. (avoid is a bit less when using a buckler but not much)</p><p>I know there is some temp buffs that boost mit and avoid and 30 secs is actually a fairly long time. All I am wondering is how much does that help really. I have been told that me having spells is a disadvantage because I can be interupted but I'm really not interupted much? </p><p>What I have noticed from raiding (both with my pali and my warlock with guards and zerkers as tanks.) I really don't have much issue with agro at all threwout the fight. Amends is basically always on an assassin parsing around 2.5k+, the con to that is if I die. I have seen the guard or zerk drop mid fight before and they can regain agro much faster then I can as I have to ninja my amends as fast as I can and hope he isn't dead before I get there (point for the guards =P) The two classes take the same amount of damage (ran parsers for several raids). I have noticed the boosted mit can hold the spike damage at bay for a period of time and that seems to help, my guess is the mit and avoid boost. I know that a well placed amends is just as effective at giving my healers enough time to get me up in a pince and if not the ten second stoneskin does the trick everytime (no damage for ten secs means full health no matter the mob)</p><p>I'm not saying we are better for the MT spot I just want to know why it is that people say I won't hack it in EoF.</p><p>P.S. Tanked threw first two names in mmis the other day in my current gear witch is a pluss for me =P</p>

[Buzzing]

<cite>Klug@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>My question is what is the real reason people say you are the uber tanks.</p></blockquote><p>When tanking the hardest encounters, it's the spike damage that kills the tank. We have some nice tools to manage those spikes, <b>none of which can be interrupted</b>. Here are some commonly used ones. There are more.</p><p>Tower of Stone - absorbs 3 attacks</p><p>Block - AA that absorbs 1 attack</p><p>Dragoon's Reflexes - AA 100% parry for 12 seconds</p><p>Two very strong short term mit buffs.</p><p> Can you tank anything in the game as a Paladin? Probably. It may take a little longer to beat a given encounter, as you will take more deaths while learning the encounter (managing that spike damage).</p><p>The real truth is that perception IS reality. The perception of most players is that Guardians are the preferred MT, therefore Guardians ARE the preferred MT.</p></blockquote><p>lol sorry was typing before I saw yours =P</p><p>Thank you!! I got a real and thoughtful reply to my question =) That is what I wanted to and I really appreciate it</p>

[Bantel]

<p>Glad to be of service.</p><p>And, for what it's worth, my favorite off-tank is a Paladin grouped with a Warlock. </p><p>Nothing can grab and hold multiple mobs better <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Buzzing]

Hehe thank got love them warlocks, think a pali may be there only chance to see the end of those fights >.<

[Kinesthesia]

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>base avoid in raid mobs doesn't mean anything is why. So def and agi add to something most raid mobs negate. Parry and Block are the two uncontested avoid stats. They are also the hardest ones to build meaning you need to be able to take more hits</blockquote>I'm not sure I entirely agree with what you said, but it leads into a comparison of Guardian and Paladin buffs.The Paladin Defensive stance, Faithful Benediction increases Defense by 28 and Wisdom by 144. The Guardian Defensive Stance, Steadfast Stance increases  Defense and Parry by 28.  The Paladin avoidance buff Resolute Faith increases defense by 14.4.  The Guardian avoidance buff Call of Armament increases parry by 14.4.  The Paladin group buffs Call of Duty and Ardent Belief increase strength, wisdom and offer a divine damage proc. The Guardian group buffs Call of Armament and Call to Siege provide 24 defense to the group (including the Guard of course) and increase melee skills by 23.Net of those four permanent buffs (all calculated at Master):Paladin Defense 42 Parry 0Guardian Defense 52  Parry  42There is a flip side, Paladins buff themselves with raw hit points, and Guards self buff stamina.  Paladins get Amends, while Guardians merely get Moderate. But for raid tanking ...  including the temporary buffs mentioned previously ... and the AA lines which offer even more defense and more parry ...

[Snorm]

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I really don't want a big debate about what is the better tank class.... I have argued with so many it isn't funny anymore.</p><p>...</p><p>My question is (and please don't abreviate =( I am a pali =P) what is the real reason people say you are the uber tanks. I know there is a temp buff that gives Mit and if you are sta line you can get some mean double attacks for your agro.</p><p>Am I really doomed to never see the hardest raids simply for being a pali?</p></blockquote><p>The real reason is mostly that guards gear up easier because of the buffs we get and the fact that we don't have to focus on anything except tanking when looking at gear. Also, when learning mobs, the get out of jail free cards are nice.</p><p>I haven't raided with a pally in some time, so my knowledge is a little rusty, however just looking at the stats... A tricked out pally with all the gear in the game, with the right group, should be able to tank anthing in the game. The major weaknesses I would expect would be issues dealing with mem-wipes or stifling mobs. Our SK tanks just fine. Similarly with our monk.</p><p>The block AA that pallies get is amazing. It improves block by 25% I believe, which means that you should be able to clear 30% block with any fabled KoS shield and the legendary SoD. That goes a long way towards making up the difference between a guards damage soak abilities. In most situations, a pally can hold better aggro, but you really only need enough aggro to hold the mob. A guard, even with a tower on, can do that fine with a reasonable raid setup.</p><p>Most all the crusaders I've looked at have just horrific avoidance. In terms of survivability, clearing 60% avoid in a raid setting helps a lot, but you have to remember that block is the most effective avoidance in the game outside of the parry/riposte adorns, which don't add up to all that much total avoid. Meaning, if a guard has 62% avoid with a buckler, and you have 58% with a tower, but your block is 4 times his, you will have more effective avoidance. So, your milage may vary from my personal experience.</p><p>There are other ways to manage spike damage, they just depend on other players being on their toes. All tanks get an intercept. It helps a ton if used correctly. Dirges also have an intercept if they take the right AA lines.</p><p>As a pally you can run with a more defensive build and MT group if you can depend on ammends for aggro. I would try somethign like Pally, Templar, Defiler, Warden, Ammendee, Dirge, with the Ammendee being whoever can push the best DPS in that group. Assassin, swash, or sorcerer are all reasonable candidates. Swash would be nice as you can still get AE avoidance from their AA line and have the dirge go down the sta line for the double attack and intercept.</p><p>Take the aviodance buff from a brawler or the OT, mit from another crusader if available... The block AA that templars can get adds some nice survivability as well.... </p><p>The short of it is that I don't think that survivability is really that huge an issue for any of the tanking classes. Guards tank wearing bucklers in offensive. I dual wield a lot of times these days on trash... I hit ToS more because I can than because I need to.</p><p>Snorm -- 70 Guard</p>

[Buzzing]

<cite>Snorm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I really don't want a big debate about what is the better tank class.... I have argued with so many it isn't funny anymore.</p><p>...</p><p>My question is (and please don't abreviate =( I am a pali =P) what is the real reason people say you are the uber tanks. I know there is a temp buff that gives Mit and if you are sta line you can get some mean double attacks for your agro.</p><p>Am I really doomed to never see the hardest raids simply for being a pali?</p></blockquote><p>The real reason is mostly that guards gear up easier because of the buffs we get and the fact that we don't have to focus on anything except tanking when looking at gear. Also, when learning mobs, the get out of jail free cards are nice.</p><p>I haven't raided with a pally in some time, so my knowledge is a little rusty, however just looking at the stats... A tricked out pally with all the gear in the game, with the right group, should be able to tank anthing in the game. The major weaknesses I would expect would be issues dealing with mem-wipes or stifling mobs. Our SK tanks just fine. Similarly with our monk.</p><p>The block AA that pallies get is amazing. It improves block by 25% I believe, which means that you should be able to clear 30% block with any fabled KoS shield and the legendary SoD. That goes a long way towards making up the difference between a guards damage soak abilities. In most situations, a pally can hold better aggro, but you really only need enough aggro to hold the mob. A guard, even with a tower on, can do that fine with a reasonable raid setup.</p><p>Most all the crusaders I've looked at have just horrific avoidance. In terms of survivability, clearing 60% avoid in a raid setting helps a lot, but you have to remember that block is the most effective avoidance in the game outside of the parry/riposte adorns, which don't add up to all that much total avoid. Meaning, if a guard has 62% avoid with a buckler, and you have 58% with a tower, but your block is 4 times his, you will have more effective avoidance. So, your milage may vary from my personal experience.</p><p>There are other ways to manage spike damage, they just depend on other players being on their toes. All tanks get an intercept. It helps a ton if used correctly. Dirges also have an intercept if they take the right AA lines.</p><p>As a pally you can run with a more defensive build and MT group if you can depend on ammends for aggro. I would try somethign like Pally, Templar, Defiler, Warden, Ammendee, Dirge, with the Ammendee being whoever can push the best DPS in that group. Assassin, swash, or sorcerer are all reasonable candidates. Swash would be nice as you can still get AE avoidance from their AA line and have the dirge go down the sta line for the double attack and intercept.</p><p>Take the aviodance buff from a brawler or the OT, mit from another crusader if available... The block AA that templars can get adds some nice survivability as well.... </p><p>The short of it is that I don't think that survivability is really that huge an issue for any of the tanking classes. Guards tank wearing bucklers in offensive. I dual wield a lot of times these days on trash... I hit ToS more because I can than because I need to.</p><p>Snorm -- 70 Guard</p></blockquote><p>Thats more or less the point I wanted to see. I have no doubt at all that your ability to take hits is better then a pali trying to do things the same way. My group setups is actually exactly what you posted and with the dirge hate buff and amends up I don't have to parse worth a crap to hold agro. So I tank trash with my 2H (more to make my healers work lol) and names I have my trusty tower shield with 1300+ shield block. I'm glad to have a few answers to my questions and know exactly why it is you take better hits. Most all the tricks a pali can do do control spike damage a guard can to (Lay on hands and DA aside) so over all you don't need the best raiders to get the job done. More or less I'm just glad to see I'm not doomed to never seeing the real stuff if I get the right set up.</p><p>Thank you all for the input</p>

[Wilin]

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hehe thank got love them warlocks, think a pali may be there only chance to see the end of those fights >.<</blockquote><p>Guardians can keep warlocks alive too. In fact, my warlocks go crazy and usually parse over 4K each on multi-mob EoF encounters and never pull aggro.</p>

[Wilin]

<cite>Celonglaer@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Paladin Defensive stance, Faithful Benediction increases Defense by 28 and Wisdom by 144. The Guardian Defensive Stance, Steadfast Stance increases  Defense and Parry by 28.  The Paladin avoidance buff Resolute Faith increases defense by 14.4.  The Guardian avoidance buff Call of Armament increases parry by 14.4.  The Paladin group buffs Call of Duty and Ardent Belief increase strength, wisdom and offer a divine damage proc. The Guardian group buffs Call of Armament and Call to Siege provide 24 defense to the group (including the Guard of course) and increase melee skills by 23.Net of those four permanent buffs (all calculated at Master):Paladin Defense 42 Parry 0Guardian Defense 52  Parry  42There is a flip side, Paladins buff themselves with raw hit points, and Guards self buff stamina.  Paladins get Amends, while Guardians merely get Moderate. But for raid tanking ...  including the temporary buffs mentioned previously ... and the AA lines which offer even more defense and more parry ...</blockquote><p>A couple of clarifications here for Buzzings sake.</p><p>First, no guardian MT or any MT for that matter should be casting their avoidance buff on someone. It's far better to get someone else to put their avoidance buff on the MT and the buffs won't stack. So comparing those buffs is irrelevant to the scope of this discussion which is MTing.</p><p>If a pally is on the raid, I get their avoidance buff because it is the best in the game assuming that they are specced correctly for shield block. I average about 12% of all attacks on me blocked by the pally.</p><p>Next, there was no mention of the guardians' group hit point buff. Yes, it's raw hit points for the entire group. About 800 of them for each person including the guard on top of the self STA buff.</p><p>And no mention that guardians can automagically save one person from dying in the MT group every few minutes by clicking one button. And you don't even need to know which one it will be.</p><p>I've said it elsewhere but here it is again. Pallies don't suck. My pallies have tanked just about everything that I have, but they needed more healers for the spike damage than I needed. In some cases, I know they have to use miracles to get through the same stuff that I tank without using any deity abilities.</p><p>Good luck though. There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to tank the same stuff as long as your raid is willing to let you. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Kinesthesia]

<cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>First, no guardian MT or any MT for that matter should be casting their avoidance buff on someone. It's far better to get someone else to put their avoidance buff on the MT and the buffs won't stack. So comparing those buffs is irrelevant to the scope of this discussion which is MTing.</p><p>If a pally is on the raid, I get their avoidance buff because it is the best in the game assuming that they are speced correctly for shield block. I average about 12% of all attacks on me blocked by the pally.</p></blockquote>I have gone back and forth on the avoidance buffs trying it both ways.  I'm curious how you calculated the 12% blocked by the Paladin.  Does this get logged separately (I mean separate from other attacks you have avoided).If you don't have a raiding Paladin (which I don't), who is your second choice for avoidance buffs ?

[Snorm]

<cite>Celonglaer@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wilin wrote:</cite>I have gone back and forth on the avoidance buffs trying it both ways.  I'm curious how you calculated the 12% blocked by the Paladin.  Does this get logged separately (I mean separate from other attacks you have avoided).If you don't have a raiding Paladin (which I don't), who is your second choice for avoidance buffs ? </blockquote><p>It's logged as 'MobX tries to hit, but PallyBoy blocks' or something similar. I don't have the exact text in front of me.</p><p> We don't run with a pally.. I personally take the avoid from our monk generally, or the ST if the monk is in full offensive. However, I haven't precisely compared the actual avoid gain from either in their various gear builds.</p><p>Snorm -- 70 Guard</p>

[Buzzing]

<p>I don't give 800 HP to my group, but I do give myself about 900 hp in a buff and give the entire raid 700 mit. I have a diety but actually never remember to prey for the spells -shrug-</p><p>as for saving someone in my group, my group NEVER gets any agro unless I'm dead. I get 32% of groups agro for 20 seconds every 2 mins and 41% of any persons agro I choose. I never have to save them but if I did I would just LoH or rescue.</p><p>I have never had much of an issue with spike damage unless half the raids healers were afk without there tags. </p>

[Sir_Halbarad]

<cite>Celonglaer@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>First, no guardian MT or any MT for that matter should be casting their avoidance buff on someone. It's far better to get someone else to put their avoidance buff on the MT and the buffs won't stack. So comparing those buffs is irrelevant to the scope of this discussion which is MTing.</p><p>If a pally is on the raid, I get their avoidance buff because it is the best in the game assuming that they are speced correctly for shield block. I average about 12% of all attacks on me blocked by the pally.</p></blockquote>I have gone back and forth on the avoidance buffs trying it both ways.  I'm curious how you calculated the 12% blocked by the Paladin.  Does this get logged separately (I mean separate from other attacks you have avoided).If you don't have a raiding Paladin (which I don't), who is your second choice for avoidance buffs ? </blockquote>My choice is our bruiser... even in offensive stance she saves my [Removed for Content]... alot <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Replying to the original topic... and sorry if this may sound lame... and repetitive since so many people before me said it already.The key to 95% of all epic fights is the pull, positioning and stabilization of the mob... The first 10 - 30 secs you need to survive the initial damage, to get everybody in their spots and to debuff.The Guardian has the best tools for this. Tower of Stone, Plant, Guardian Sphere, Reinforcement combined with the short term mitigation buffs and sentry watch just give you the right tools to survive and keep aggro.That's the reason why the Guardian tanks better. In Raids. In Exp Groups other Fighters are better. Paladins being one of them. You can't have every fighter doing everything the same... at least not in my opinion. /drops 2 coppers

[Buzzing]

Yes but if the key is living the first 30 secs of a fight DA owns. 10 seconds of no damage bliss.

[Herme]

PM sent to you buzzing

[Wilin]

<p><cite>Celonglaer@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I have gone back and forth on the avoidance buffs trying it both ways.  I'm curious how you calculated the 12% blocked by the Paladin.  Does this get logged separately (I mean separate from other attacks you have avoided).If you don't have a raiding Paladin (which I don't), who is your second choice for avoidance buffs ? </blockquote><p>I got that number from repeated ZW parses. In ACT, you can get an Avoidance Report that will show you how often the other person blocks for you. I think it also shows parries by anyone else but they are so rare, that it's negligable. I get about 11-12% of all attacks blocked by a pally and about 4% blocked by a SK. I haven't parsed ZWs with the brawler buff since they don't have much uncontested unless they are in def stance and they usually aren't.</p>

[Wilin]

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't give 800 HP to my group, but I do give myself about 900 hp in a buff and give the entire raid 700 mit. I have a diety but actually never remember to prey for the spells -shrug-</p><p>as for saving someone in my group, my group NEVER gets any agro unless I'm dead. I get 32% of groups agro for 20 seconds every 2 mins and 41% of any persons agro I choose. I never have to save them but if I did I would just LoH or rescue.</p><p>I have never had much of an issue with spike damage unless half the raids healers were afk without there tags. </p></blockquote><p>700 mit on the entire raid? Raid Armament only works on non-fighters in the raid, not the entire raid...unless there's another spiffy ability out there.</p><p>Your group might never get aggro, but they do take damage from AEs. People die from other things than direct aggro. And then there are mobs that memwipe and target healers randomly. Mobs that memblur and wipe you off their hatelist but keep the squishies. Maybe you haven't fought those before though.</p><p>It's awesome that you want to show off your spiffy pally abilities. I was just listing them, not comparing them. The previous list of guardian group buffs was not complete, so I completed it.</p>

[Buzzing]

<p>Wasn't trying to compare much just letting you know. The 700 mit is not for the fighters but that means my group still gets it. I have fought things that memwipe and things that have massive aoe's and do have people die at random, But that has never been what has killed me or the raid.</p><p> I know for a fact that a guard is your over all better choice for a raid tank. This had been said since the launce of this game. I just wanted to know if a well played pali can pull it in harder zones. The honest truth is that they can, it just means you need an above average player to do it and it won't work with all of them.</p><p>-bow- Grats to all the guard raid tanks... I'll see you in the end =D</p>

[Bravesinger]

<p>To me it looks like you have some serious inferiority complexes. You want to prove to us, that you don't suck as much as paladins usually do. But since you have only killed the first 2 named in MMIS my guess is, that you haven't been fighting the truely tough encounters yet, like avatars and end bosses. It is in those situations, that spike damage occurs, and where you have to be able to use the tools guardians have to stay alive during the huge spikes of damage.</p><p>The 2 first named you have killed in MMIS are mobs you never die to. They are just as easy as ordinary trash. Have you ever considered why you haven't killed Mayong and the rest of MMIS? Could it be, that it is the MT class that makes it so much harder for you? I don't think you will try the toughest encounters before EoF goes live and the lvlcap increases. When that happens all mobs in T7 will be way easier. But GL tanking. As long a you are confindent you have the right class for a raid MT I am sure you can do ok.</p>

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<p>The main differences I see are:</p><ul><li>Guards get stoneskin (ToS, Stone Sphere) whereas Paladins get heals. Stoneskin scales up versus epics (e.g. can soak 10k+ damage). Heals don't scale up versus the mob, so are rather ineffectual against an epic.</li><li>Guards get more max hitpoints. Your hp are often the buffer between success and a wipe, so more hp means more margin for error for the healers and room for sudden spikes (not to mention more raw healing from %-based heals).</li><li>Guards have the ability in Reinforcement to get aggro extremely quickly from a dead start or memwipe. Amends, in comparison, whilst being a good tool to maintain aggro, is of little use in recovering it on a badly timed memwipe or after a rez.</li><li>Guards can protect their MT group better, with a groupwide on-death heal/taunt, groupwide damage interception, single target interception, single target hate reduction, and single target avoidance - not to mention groupwide hp, defense, and mitigation buffs. Dead healers = dead tank, so this is a significant advantage.</li></ul><p>That said I'm sure you could clear every instance with a Paladin tanking. But assuming everything else is equal, it will simply be harder than with a Guardian.</p>

[MaCloud1032]

<cite>Bravesinger wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>To me it looks like you have some serious inferiority complexes. You want to prove to us, that you don't suck as much as paladins usually do. But since you have only killed the first 2 named in MMIS my guess is, that you haven't been fighting the truely tough encounters yet, like avatars and end bosses. It is in those situations, that spike damage occurs, and where you have to be able to use the tools guardians have to stay alive during the huge spikes of damage.</p><p>The 2 first named you have killed in MMIS are mobs you never die to. They are just as easy as ordinary trash. Have you ever considered why you haven't killed Mayong and the rest of MMIS?<b> Could it be, that it is</b> <b>the MT class that makes it so much harder for you?</b> I don't think you will try the toughest encounters before EoF goes live and the lvlcap increases. When that happens all mobs in T7 will be way easier. But GL tanking. As long a you are confindent you have the right class for a raid MT I am sure you can do ok.</p></blockquote>Its the statments like this that make the other tank classes question them selfs.  in my raid alliance I have tanked everthing our gaurd has.  Just because a SK is up there will not hold back a raid.  I have tanked many of our first kills.Recently I rolled a gaurd yes there are a lot and i mean a lot of tools that you have at your disposal.  I mean gaurd is tank on easy mode.The only classes i realy play are tanks.  Once i get my gaurd to 80 i will probly run up a bruiser then a zerker.

[Bravesinger]

<p>Please read the line again: I said it would be HARDER, not that it would be impossible. I am not sure what contested/end-mobs you have tanked, but I am sure that your healers will see a huge difference if you compare the difference in damage a SK takes versus a guardian. Once a mob has been completely debuffed thay are usual quite easy. But the hardest part is often the first 10-20 secs, and here the guardian has some very effective tools to make those initial secs so much easier for the healers. And the same happens when 2 AEs are hitting at the same time.</p><p>I have never seen/heard of a sk/pally tanking the toughest avatars or contested Mayong (before they are nefed) simply because all hardcore guilds use guardians/berserkers as MTs. </p>

[demonwr]

i have seen  an sk tank the hardest mobs and i do mean avatars and end bosses it may not be the ideal class or the easyest but it can be done. and bw i play a gard

[Aull]

<p>Guards are just flat out the best imho when it come to the ability to take the hits and save the group members once aggro is lost. They are the best at this and should be! I must admit that I do not play a guard but have some friends that have betrayed for the simple reason that guard just have great abilities if things get out of hand. Paladins amends is also awesome and we have a great paladin in our guild who tanks our raids when the guards are not available and he does a great job. It was said before that learning the class you play is the single most important thing, and yes the abilities may not be there for certain classes to do some of the content, but with a reliable group that knows who ever maybe tanking short comings most of it can be done. Just get a group that will benefit you and you benefit the group and it is awesome.</p>

[Buzzing]

<cite>Bravesinger wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>To me it looks like you have some serious inferiority complexes. You want to prove to us, that you don't suck as much as paladins usually do. But since you have only killed the first 2 named in MMIS my guess is, that you haven't been fighting the truely tough encounters yet, like avatars and end bosses. It is in those situations, that spike damage occurs, and where you have to be able to use the tools guardians have to stay alive during the huge spikes of damage.</p><p>The 2 first named you have killed in MMIS are mobs you never die to. They are just as easy as ordinary trash. Have you ever considered why you haven't killed Mayong and the rest of MMIS? Could it be, that it is the MT class that makes it so much harder for you? I don't think you will try the toughest encounters before EoF goes live and the lvlcap increases. When that happens all mobs in T7 will be way easier. But GL tanking. As long a you are confindent you have the right class for a raid MT I am sure you can do ok.</p></blockquote><p>no the real reason is that I have killed the first two names in mmis with a PU raid, our guild does not have a major raid force and honestly I have nothing to prove. I just hate people that try to say they are better just because they are....</p><p>I have gotten many thoughtful replies in here and I am satisfied with that.</p>

[lCUBANOl]

<cite>Darksavanna@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bravesinger wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>To me it looks like you have some serious inferiority complexes. You want to prove to us, that you don't suck as much as paladins usually do. But since you have only killed the first 2 named in MMIS my guess is, that you haven't been fighting the truely tough encounters yet, like avatars and end bosses. It is in those situations, that spike damage occurs, and where you have to be able to use the tools guardians have to stay alive during the huge spikes of damage.</p><p>The 2 first named you have killed in MMIS are mobs you never die to. They are just as easy as ordinary trash. Have you ever considered why you haven't killed Mayong and the rest of MMIS?<b> Could it be, that it is</b> <b>the MT class that makes it so much harder for you?</b> I don't think you will try the toughest encounters before EoF goes live and the lvlcap increases. When that happens all mobs in T7 will be way easier. But GL tanking. As long a you are confindent you have the right class for a raid MT I am sure you can do ok.</p></blockquote>Its the statments like this that make the other tank classes question them selfs.  in my raid alliance I have tanked everthing our gaurd has.  Just because a SK is up there will not hold back a raid.  I have tanked many of our first kills.Recently I rolled a gaurd yes there are a lot and i mean a lot of tools that you have at your disposal.  I mean gaurd is tank on easy mode.The only classes i realy play are tanks.  <b>Once i get my gaurd to 80</b> i will probly run up a bruiser then a zerker.</blockquote>About time dude! Watch out Venekor!!!