TS buffs useless?

[littleman17]

<p>By tradeskill buffs, I mean the ones you get time to time like Sage's insight. They are extremely useful for the combine that you proc it on, but does absolutely /nothing/ past that. In fact, I seem to experience /more/ failures (-50 durability with no progress) if I continue to work while the buff is up...</p><p>Since these are about the only thing that breaks the utter monotony of tradeskilling, could we please make them useful aga...for the first time?</p>

[Asteroid]

If you're getting -50 durability hits then you aren't actively using your counters while you craft. My suggestion would be to start using 1 or 2 counters (the non-power ones) every "round" and see how you do. After you've grown accustomed to doing that, you might want to consider crafting the way a lot of people do it ... using all 3 counters every round (I.e., button mashing). The Insight reactions do help some. If you look at the buff, it grants you +25 to whatever skill you're using (Artistry, Artificing, Chemistry, etc).

[Jesdyr]

<cite>Shadowfire wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you're getting -50 durability hits then you aren't actively using your counters while you craft. </blockquote>Umm really? Let me say that as someone with well over 100k faction from rushorders between my characters, -50+ durability hits are very common. I expect at least 1 for every 2 items I make (min).  If you use your +progress skills together you will see if often as well.Edit --  guess I should comment on the OP.  Truth is the effects of +25 skill are fairly low. You should see less failures over time, but with the way the RNG is, it ends up not really doing much for you. I know I tend to see less "OMG the RNG hates me!" streaks when I have the insight buff up, but the normal bad rounds still happen about as often as they do without it.

[Looker1010]

<cite>Shadowfire wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you're getting -50 durability hits then you aren't actively using your counters while you craft. My suggestion would be to start using 1 or 2 counters (the non-power ones) every "round" and see how you do. After you've grown accustomed to doing that, you might want to consider crafting the way a lot of people do it ... using all 3 counters every round (I.e., button mashing). The Insight reactions do help some. If you look at the buff, it grants you +25 to whatever skill you're using (Artistry, Artificing, Chemistry, etc).</blockquote><p>Umm no. Just no. I'm a long time crafter who works proactively with her counter buttons and I also see no difference crafting with or without that pink "belt" around me. It is, in fact, one of my biggest crafting disappointments.</p><p>All of my gals have a +10 tool from the Village of Shin quests equipped when they craft, along with a +3% chance of success item made by a fellow guildie who is a 350 tinker. So you'd think +25, +10 and a +3% chance of success increase would mean fewer catastrophic events, right? Doesn't work that way, at least for me.</p>

[Calthine]

Insight just adds skill, it doesn't guarantee you won't get a critical failure.

[Tokam]

<cite>littleman17 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>By tradeskill buffs, I mean the ones you get time to time like Sage's insight. They are extremely useful for the combine that you proc it on, but does absolutely /nothing/ past that. In fact, I seem to experience /more/ failures (-50 durability with no progress) if I continue to work while the buff is up...</p><p>Since these are about the only thing that breaks the utter monotony of tradeskilling, could we please make them useful aga...for the first time?</p></blockquote>Nah you just aren't being analytical enough to see the benefit you get from getting less failure events (and thereby leaning harder on your +prog spam).I reckon it cuts my writ time down by around 30 secs, certainly Id never be able to get close to 3:00 for a writ without it.

[Calris]

<cite>Shadowfire wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you're getting -50 durability hits then you aren't actively using your counters while you craft.</blockquote>Incorrect. I've been hit by those even when I counter everything. If they're happening a LOT, yeah, that's the problem, but they do still pop up even when you do everything right.

[littleman17]

<p>Actually Toka, no, I focus mainly on keeping my durability up and hardly ever spam my progress buttons because I can't afford to 90% of the time. I get hit with 5 or more -50 durability things nearly every combine regardless of what I do. Can't tell you how many times I've gone oop trying to counter the massive durability loss... thank goodness my necro is my sage, so he hardly if ever runs out of power for long.</p>

[Calthine]

<cite>Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shadowfire wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you're getting -50 durability hits then you aren't actively using your counters while you craft.</blockquote>Incorrect. I've been hit by those even when I counter everything. If they're happening a LOT, yeah, that's the problem, but they do still pop up even when you do everything right.</blockquote>This is one of the few times when we're discussing Arts I won't say "it's all in how you use them".  That chance of success (or failure) is a weighted randomizer, weighted by what you do during the round and what modifiers you have used or are wearing.  But you can still get them.  Um...  Domino's discussion of Tradeskill mechanics from Fan Faire is...  I have a link somewhere...  <a href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=1057" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">part of this panel discussion</a>.

[Terron]

<cite>Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Incorrect. I've been hit by those even when I counter everything. If they're happening a LOT, yeah, that's the problem, but they do still pop up even when you do everything right.</blockquote>Counter everything <> do everything right It is more important to spam the arts than to counter events.

[Calthine]

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Incorrect. I've been hit by those even when I counter everything. If they're happening a LOT, yeah, that's the problem, but they do still pop up even when you do everything right.</blockquote>Counter everything <> do everything right It is more important to spam the arts than to counter events.</blockquote>I'll disagree with that, because correctly countering an event sets the base results for the round back to "normal" -10, 50.  You can get some dandy results correctly countering and then applying two more arts selectively.

[Jesdyr]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Incorrect. I've been hit by those even when I counter everything. If they're happening a LOT, yeah, that's the problem, but they do still pop up even when you do everything right.</blockquote>Counter everything <> do everything right It is more important to spam the arts than to counter events.</blockquote>I'll disagree with that, because correctly countering an event sets the base results for the round back to "normal" -10, 50.  You can get some dandy results correctly countering and then applying two more arts selectively.</blockquote>There is a difference between a good crafter and a great crafter. Terron might be a good crafter, but I would say Calthine is a great one. I would like to point out that not only will the counter set the base result back to normal, but the exact art you use to counter can have various effects. Some will always produce a critical success Others will heal you (kinda worthless) or give you back some power. This is one thing that will most likely go away with the revamp. The new arts will only lessen the impact of the players skill while crafting. I guess it isnt really a bad thing, but I kinda pride myself on being a great crafter, now things are going to be made simple which to me means less fun.

[Asteroid]

Every single one of you missed what I was saying completely.  If you do not use any counters at all, and the round is a failure, you get exactly a -50 durability hit. If the round is a success, you get -10 durability and +50 progress. If the round is a critical success, then you get +100 progress.If you look at what the OP said -- "<span class="postbody">In fact, I seem to experience /more/ failures (-50 durability with no progress) if I continue to work while the buff is up."If the OP was using counters, his failures would be around -65 durability with some (+30-70) progress.</span>

[Calthine]

<cite>Shadowfire wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every single one of you missed what I was saying completely.  If you do not use any counters at all, and the round is a failure, you get exactly a -50 durability hit. If the round is a success, you get -10 durability and +50 progress. If the round is a critical success, then you get +100 progress.<span class="postbody"></span></blockquote>Not necessarily, there are three levels of failure, as I recall.

[rumblepants]

<p>The skill bonus to me has little impact on my success/failure rate aside from its first one or two initial automatic successes. I'm guessing it's because there is some extreme variable in their equation that's making that bonus very trivial. *shrugs*</p>

[Mikkahl]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shadowfire wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every single one of you missed what I was saying completely.  If you do not use any counters at all, and the round is a failure, you get exactly a -50 durability hit. If the round is a success, you get -10 durability and +50 progress. If the round is a critical success, then you get +100 progress.<span class="postbody"></span></blockquote>Not necessarily, there are three levels of failure, as I recall.</blockquote>Yes, I know I have seen a -100 durability critical failure occasionally.

[Asteroid]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shadowfire wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every single one of you missed what I was saying completely.  If you do not use any counters at all, and the round is a failure, you get exactly a -50 durability hit. If the round is a success, you get -10 durability and +50 progress. If the round is a critical success, then you get +100 progress.<span class="postbody"></span></blockquote>Not necessarily, there are three levels of failure, as I recall.</blockquote>I've seen 4 things happen in a round without a reaction, without using counters. Critical Failure, Failure, Success, and Critical Success. Those would be -100 durability, -50 progress; -50 durability, 0 progress; -10 durability, +50 progress; and 0 durability, +100 progress. If there's a 3rd level of failure out there, I've never seen it. And with how much I craft, thats hard to believe.

[Mikkahl]

<cite>Shadowfire wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you're getting -50 durability hits then you aren't actively using your counters while you craft. My suggestion would be to start using 1 or 2 counters (the non-power ones) every "round" and see how you do. After you've grown accustomed to doing that, you might want to consider crafting the way a lot of people do it ... using all 3 counters every round (I.e., button mashing). </blockquote>So many disagreed with this, when it is simple math.  For example, if you had just spammed 2 buffs that give +10 durability each when the -50 durability hits, then instead of a red -50 roll up you would only see -30.  So, spamming doesn't prevent critical failures, it just makes them less severe.  And, if you never spam the durability buffs at all, you are getting -10 durability most of the time.  So we spam a little to keep durability from falling (and to build up the invisible "reserve" above 100%), and we spam a lot when we get multiple critical hits.

[Mikkahl]

<cite>Shadowfire wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shadowfire wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every single one of you missed what I was saying completely.  If you do not use any counters at all, and the round is a failure, you get exactly a -50 durability hit. If the round is a success, you get -10 durability and +50 progress. If the round is a critical success, then you get +100 progress.<span class="postbody"></span></blockquote>Not necessarily, there are three levels of failure, as I recall.</blockquote>I've seen 4 things happen in a round without a reaction, without using counters. Critical Failure, Failure, Success, and Critical Success. Those would be -100 durability, -50 progress; -50 durability, 0 progress; -10 durability, +50 progress; and 0 durability, +100 progress. If there's a 3rd level of failure out there, I've never seen it. And with how much I craft, thats hard to believe.</blockquote>OK, I can believe there's only two levels of failure, and 2 of success.  But the -10 durability / +50 progress level is just the "normal" average round - I don't think it is identified as a success or failure.

[Calthine]

10/+50 is "normal".  According to Domino at the Fan Faire <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=1057" target="_blank">Mechanically Speaking</a> panel, there are four other possibilities:  crit success, normal success, normal failure, or crit failure.  My mistake.

[Asteroid]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>10/+50 is "normal".  According to Domino at the Fan Faire <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=1057" target="_blank">Mechanically Speaking</a> panel, there are four other possibilities:  crit success, normal success, normal failure, or crit failure.  My mistake.</blockquote>I believe the "normal success" as outlined in the article is the -10/+50 event. The -50/+0 event would be the "normal failure".

[Terron]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Counter everything <> do everything right It is more important to spam the arts than to counter events.</blockquote>I'll disagree with that, because correctly countering an event sets the base results for the round back to "normal" -10, 50.  You can get some dandy results correctly countering and then applying two more arts selectively.</blockquote>I don't think there is a real disagreement. If you just counter events you are unlikely to get pristine. If you just spam arts you can get pristine almost every time. So spaming arts is more important. I was not saying that doing both is not better, or that countering is unimportant.

[Somniloquy]

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Counter everything <> do everything right It is more important to spam the arts than to counter events.</blockquote>I'll disagree with that, because correctly countering an event sets the base results for the round back to "normal" -10, 50.  You can get some dandy results correctly countering and then applying two more arts selectively.</blockquote>I don't think there is a real disagreement. If you just counter events you are unlikely to get pristine. If you just spam arts you can get pristine almost every time. So spaming arts is more important. I was not saying that doing both is not better, or that countering is unimportant. </blockquote>I counter always and use steady application of arts.  Neither seems more or less important.  Sometimes you will get hit with a stream of 3 or 4 failures regardless and can lose a pristine sometimes, not often if dura has been built up enough to start with but lets face it, when just grinding out basics, does anybody remain that diligent for every single handcrafted combine ?  I certainly don't.  Countering really helps a lot, and is also an opportunity to pile on some progress or bolster durability with no risk and regularly missing them is missing a point.  Getting a nice amount of events requiring the - % success art, in particular, speeds up a combine immensely.To the OP.  I'm sorry but a +25 buff is like 5 ts levels for a few minutes.  My higher level toons go get a rush order the moment they get that buff for a nice trouble free writ.  It does not guarantee success but turning White recipes into blues and  blues into greens (effectively) makes a significant difference over the whole time of the buff.

[Mikkahl]

<p>Since the changes in events a few updates ago, the best reason to counter events is that there are some severe events that take a HUGE hit on your power pool if you don't - I've seen up to 80% loss.  Then, you will be hard-pressed to have enough power to spam the arts.</p><p>If, on the other hand, you counter that same event, you will not only not take a power hit, but you might even get back a little more power than you otherwise would.</p><p>And countering events can give you a little extra durability or progress, on top of what the spam would ordinarily get.  And I often see some of that extra benefit apply to the following tick as well.  Likewise, not countering an event can cause bad things on that tick and the next.</p>

[Asteroid]

My prime reason for always countering events is that if you successfully counter the event, that round is an automatic success.