Shard of Fear : No mobs see invis. [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

einar4

10-04-2007, 12:34 PM

<cite>Ookami-san wrote:</cite><blockquote>Cool.... since we're going to nerf the zone for stealth classes...Let's make no taunts work in the zone... that'll effectively nerf the zone to tanksOh... and let's make it so that no heals work in the zone... that'll take care of the healers...And we can't make sure all damage spells are 100% resisted... that should nerf the finger wagglers...Oh... and let's make pets unsummonable in the zone and make debuffs impossible to land...Did I miss anyone?</blockquote> Well, lets see. Taunts are contested skill checks Healers can be stifled. Damage spells can be resisted/mitigated Pets can be killed But stealth should be a get-through-the-zone-free card?

Freliant

10-04-2007, 12:37 PM

Haven't been in the zone yet, but I for one do not intend on skipping trash, unless its a quick run. Once Rok comes out, I will not skip anything.

Runewind

10-04-2007, 02:19 PM

<cite>Ikarri@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ookami-san wrote:</cite><blockquote>Cool.... since we're going to nerf the zone for stealth classes...Let's make no taunts work in the zone... that'll effectively nerf the zone to tanksOh... and let's make it so that no heals work in the zone... that'll take care of the healers...And we can't make sure all damage spells are 100% resisted... that should nerf the finger wagglers...Oh... and let's make pets unsummonable in the zone and make debuffs impossible to land...Did I miss anyone?</blockquote> Well, lets see. Taunts are contested skill checks Healers can be stifled. Damage spells can be resisted/mitigated Pets can be killed But stealth should be a get-through-the-zone-free card? </blockquote>I think the issue was that the OP was suggesting making stealth USELESS in the zone, see?<cite>Darkhain@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's too easy to walk in this zone with a group stealth or invis, would be better to put all see invis/stealth ability.</blockquote>So putting SOME see invis mobs wouldn't be a bad idea but if you make them ALL see invis/stealth than stealth is useless which is what, I believe, Ookami was responding to.

Bre

10-04-2007, 02:44 PM

SOE is aware of the lack of see invis mobs in the zone. I as a scout found it refreshing, but recognize and understand the need for see invis mobs. Although I do hope they don't go overboard with them. I don't think the zone is fully implimented yet, kind of a phase one thing right now imo.Brega - 70 Ranger, Test Server

Kaiser Sigma

10-04-2007, 02:47 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why not just hide the loot in the trash mobs. Named only give AA and quest updates. If you want access to the zone's loot table you need to kill everything. </blockquote>Because trash mobs dropping loot is the worst idea ever. Look at Throne of New Tunaria as a fine example of how borked up the random system is. Stealth on some or all mobs is fine. As far as I recall, you couldn't stealth / invis in Nizara or Unrest and if the zone is as easy as they say then either trash sees stealth / invis or we have a new Nektropos Tribulation.

Morrias

10-04-2007, 03:34 PM

Well, I dont think it will matter for a brawler or well, anyone that can run, those mobs hardly do any dmg, that zone seems WAY to easy..

Wilin

10-04-2007, 04:45 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why not just hide the loot in the trash mobs. Named only give AA and quest updates. If you want access to the zone's loot table you need to kill everything. </blockquote>You mean itemize all of the class armor on random mobs in the Plane of Fear so you have to kill all of the mobs to get all of the armor drops? That has never happened before...while they are at it, why don't they put each class'es armor on specific subsets of mobs. Nah... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Cusashorn

10-04-2007, 07:43 PM

The zone is still being reworked. the GM's have it set on easy right now to settle out some things.

Cocytus

10-04-2007, 09:42 PM

Yeah, stealth is already pretty much useless in EQ2, why should we ever start making exceptions that make it useful?

Willias

10-04-2007, 11:52 PM

wait, whatStealth is used for special attacks. Since there's group stealth, you can't have it be too useful in dungeon situations, or you just have people using stealth to get to named mobs while ignoring everything else.

Wilin

10-05-2007, 12:38 PM

<cite>Willias@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>wait, whatStealth is used for special attacks. Since there's group stealth, you can't have it be too useful in dungeon situations, or you just have people using stealth to get to named mobs while ignoring everything else.</blockquote>Kinda like people using FD to get to named mobs while ignoring everything else. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Aela@Test

10-05-2007, 12:41 PM

Xanrn

10-05-2007, 01:23 PM

Monks get Group FD on a 15 minute timer that has the habit of killing people.

Cusashorn

10-05-2007, 02:19 PM

It's called Fall of the Phoenix. At master 1, it applies a 90% feign death success rate on each individual member of your group. People can still "Fall to the ground" while others successfully feign. Only monks get this skill, and it's a 15 minute timer. It also last 3 minutes and then you stand up. You can't use it to move an entire group past content.

Wilin

10-05-2007, 03:03 PM

I'm not even talking about the monk's group FD. That will get you killed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Oakum

10-05-2007, 03:18 PM

<cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Willias@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>wait, whatStealth is used for special attacks. Since there's group stealth, you can't have it be too useful in dungeon situations, or you just have people using stealth to get to named mobs while ignoring everything else.</blockquote>Kinda like people using FD to get to named mobs while ignoring everything else. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>While players do use FD to train groups/raids past mobs they don't want to or can't kill, their is always a chance of it failing for those with quick reuse timers or the player being stunned. Stealth and invis both remove any danger at all where the mobs can't see us until we want them to. If you are not a brawler/sk/necro and want to use fd all you have to do is be a tinkerer for a secondary tradeskill. Of course everyone over lvl 30 can stealth or invis with totems so thats even easier for anyone that wants to use them but doesn't have them as a spell/ca ability.

Ookami-san

10-05-2007, 03:34 PM

<cite>Ikarri@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote> Well, lets see. Taunts are contested skill checks Healers can be stifled. Damage spells can be resisted/mitigated Pets can be killed But stealth should be a get-through-the-zone-free card? </blockquote>Not saying stealth should be a get-through-the-zone-free card, but a little more use of a CLASS DEFINING skill would be nice for a change.How often do you see people complaining the the mobs aren't immune to taunts, or the mobs aren't immune to DD spells or DoTs, or the zone is too easy because it allows conjurers to summon pets, etc.?!I get sick of people without certain skills complaining that it makes things easier for those that have them. Guess what... if my swashy had taunts and could wear plate... it'd be EASIER for me to solo things. In fact, if I could play songs while wearing plate casting massive DDs while my pet pummeled things and I healed myself... that would make it easier too... oh wait... I can't do any of that stuff... so.... let's nerf the zone so no one else can heal, cast, summon, taunt or tank...It'd be a nice change to see certain zones where certain classes or archtypes could shine. You don't tho... because of whiners... it's too easy (cry a river)... people can stealth thru (cry a river)... I want to be a class that doesn't have stealth (whine)... so why should anyone else be able to do things I can't (whine)...So you can't do everything in the game.... SUCK IT UP! That's life. Find a class you like and play it.... if you want to try a different class... do it... just stop the whining!Geez!

Sapphirius

10-05-2007, 04:06 PM

<cite>Oakum wrote:</cite><blockquote>While players do use FD to train groups/raids past mobs they don't want to or can't kill, their is always a chance of it failing for those with quick reuse timers or the player being stunned. Stealth and invis both remove any danger at all where the mobs can't see us until we want them to. If you are not a brawler/sk/necro and want to use fd all you have to do is be a tinkerer for a secondary tradeskill. Of course everyone over lvl 30 can stealth or invis with totems so thats even easier for anyone that wants to use them but doesn't have them as a spell/ca ability. </blockquote>TeeHee! That 4% failure rate gets me into more trouble than anything else in that game. The time I most need my FD is the time when that 4% decides it wants to play.

KBern

10-05-2007, 04:14 PM

<cite>Ookami-san wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ikarri@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote> Well, lets see. Taunts are contested skill checks Healers can be stifled. Damage spells can be resisted/mitigated Pets can be killed But stealth should be a get-through-the-zone-free card? </blockquote>Not saying stealth should be a get-through-the-zone-free card, but a little more use of a CLASS DEFINING skill would be nice for a change.How often do you see people complaining the the mobs aren't immune to taunts, or the mobs aren't immune to DD spells or DoTs, or the zone is too easy because it allows conjurers to summon pets, etc.?!I get sick of people without certain skills complaining that it makes things easier for those that have them. Guess what... if my swashy had taunts and could wear plate... it'd be EASIER for me to solo things. In fact, if I could play songs while wearing plate casting massive DDs while my pet pummeled things and I healed myself... that would make it easier too... oh wait... I can't do any of that stuff... so.... let's nerf the zone so no one else can heal, cast, summon, taunt or tank...It'd be a nice change to see certain zones where certain classes or archtypes could shine. You don't tho... because of whiners... it's too easy (cry a river)... people can stealth thru (cry a river)... I want to be a class that doesn't have stealth (whine)... so why should anyone else be able to do things I can't (whine)...So you can't do everything in the game.... SUCK IT UP! That's life. Find a class you like and play it.... if you want to try a different class... do it... just stop the whining!Geez!</blockquote>I kind of see what you are saying. It is annoying how useless the designers have made steath and invis, but do you really see stealth as your CLASS DEFINING skill?

Windowlicker

10-05-2007, 04:29 PM

I'm sorry but there's no way a zone like this should have no see-invis mobs in it. Not only should it be completely riddled with see-invis mobs, but it should literally be impossible to move through it without taking down a minimum set of required content."Stealth" is not class defining. If it was, then only ONE or TWO classes would have it. As it stands, all scouts have this ability. It already comes in more then handy in this game without being able to waltz through this instance. I say this as someone with a 70 Dirge, and a nearly 40 Swash.Especially something that is currently top level content in this game.Beyond that, the last thing Scouts need is the ability to walk around in a zone like this without taking aggro. As it stands Scouts are literally the #1 class that tends to not follow the tank, not follow the group .. and get themselves and the group killed by wandering around touching things they shouldn't.Nerf it I say, Nerf it hard.

Wilin

10-05-2007, 05:13 PM

<cite>Oakum wrote:</cite><blockquote>While players do use FD to train groups/raids past mobs they don't want to or can't kill, their is always a chance of it failing for those with quick reuse timers or the player being stunned. Stealth and invis both remove any danger at all where the mobs can't see us until we want them to. If you are not a brawler/sk/necro and want to use fd all you have to do is be a tinkerer for a secondary tradeskill. Of course everyone over lvl 30 can stealth or invis with totems so thats even easier for anyone that wants to use them but doesn't have them as a spell/ca ability. </blockquote>Agreed.Don't forget rogues though. They can FD too if specced.

Cocytus

10-05-2007, 05:52 PM

I just think it's stupid that the point of stealth is not to be seen, and yet the only occassions where you can't train past mobs, or you'll die....Are the occassions where things see stealth.If that's how it' s going to be they need to rename it to "Stealth attack preparation" since it has no other useful function.

Kendricke

10-05-2007, 05:59 PM

The zone is far too easy for release at this point. Difficulty across the board needs to be ramped up. Absolutely there need to be more see-invisibility and see-stealth creatures in here. There should be some level of ...well, fear. With a totem that costs less than a gold, I can currently walk essentially anywhere I want right now with impunity. That's right. In your face (er, whatever) Cazic! I can waltz around your puny Shard without ANY FEAR AT ALL. I'm not scared. I'm not even breaking a sweat. I can dance a jig at the feet of every nastry critter in here. WOOHOO! That's right. WOOHOO!

Gareorn

10-05-2007, 05:59 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite> <blockquote>As it stands Scouts are literally the #1 class that tends to not follow the tank, not follow the group .. and get themselves and the group killed by wandering around touching things they shouldn't.</blockquote>Could you please point us to the specific statistics please? I'm not saying I don't believe you, but that is one incredible claim if you can't back it up with some real data.

Magic

10-05-2007, 06:20 PM

I recently created an Arasai Brigand simply because of the stealth ability. I consider stealth to be class-defining in my case. There are times when all I want to do is go through a zone without having to fight, since I'm a soloist who enjoys exploring. But if I do choose to fight, I want to be able to sneak up behind my target and attack from there in hopes of keeping the fight brief. I cannot do that if the mob sees through stealth. I can understand the logic of scout mobs seeing through stealth since scouts know what to look for. The same applies to the inviz classes.I'm glad that there are no mobs there that can see inviz. Let's see how long it stays that way.

Iseabeil

10-05-2007, 06:34 PM

Stealth, or rather group stealth used to be pretty much a class defining ability. Before SoE started play bowling with the classes I generally went /anon on my swashie in tier5 (somethin I did on my healers in tier3) because of repeatedly getting /tells and ninja-invites. Why? Because of group stealth and how it made life so much easier when goin to naggy. That was back then tho, today stealth is about as usefull as a tin arrow versus Avatar of Mischief.Anyways, I dont think the disagreement is that no mobs should see stealth, but the notion from OP that all mobs should see stealth. SoS is a fairly boring zone, but one thing I really liked was how you with selective killing could open up 'lanes' of non-see invis mobs, due to some but not all seeing. Of course, when you finally have your nice pathway, some idiot comes and kills them and the see invis ones spawn *grins*Dont make stealth essential or gam breaking, but give it some use beyond allowing you to use stealthed attacks.

Rayche

10-05-2007, 06:38 PM

What's wrong with allowing stealth to work?I mean, it might let your scouts... wait for it.... SCOUT the area before you move?Are you worried about all those darned scout plat farmers? Don't worry... all the plat farmers made Wizards.

Bre

10-05-2007, 10:11 PM

Guys, there is no way that SOE is going to let this go live with no see invis mobs. It just isn't gonna happen. It would make it too easy to just jump from name to name with no risk. And I say that as a ranger who absolutely delights in acting like a scout. Brega - 70 Ranger, Test Server

Guy De Alsace

10-05-2007, 10:17 PM

Problem is there is no middle ground. You're either in stealth or you arent. It either works or it doesnt work. I liked the part in the Hooloh hat quest where you had to sneak to the top of the Nest of the Great Egg for your update.This required a new approach since if you got too close to a mob they would see you. I'd like stealth to work in a similar way.

Sapphirius

10-05-2007, 10:31 PM

<cite>Iseabeil wrote:</cite><blockquote>That was back then tho, today stealth is about as usefull as a tin arrow versus Avatar of Mischief.</blockquote>Ya know, with all the problems that Bristlebane's avatar causes, I would laugh if the secret to beating him really was using tin arrows. Sorry. I have a seriously warped sense of humor. I couldn't help but giggle about it.As for the stealth debate... Stealth is not "THE" class defining ability of a scout, but it is one of the class defining abilities, just as feign death is one of the class defining abilities of a monk/bruiser, but now literally anyone can feign death. However, I'm kind of in agreeance with the others here. Every other class defining ability has a failure rate including feign death. Stealth does not. The mob either sees through it, or it doesn't. Currently, there is not a single mob in the zone that sees through stealth, and this should be fixed. I'm not saying make every single mob see through it, but you should have a couple at least be able to see through.What? Do they all stand around totally clueless with their thumbs up their rear? You're telling me that there shouldn't or couldn't even be one single mob in there that isn't more situationally aware than his colleagues?If you're going the route of needing stealth to position yourself etc. and how mobs shouldn't see you in stealth at all, then I think there should be a limit on how long stealth lasts. After all, if you're standing behind someone, eventually their hackles are gonna raise when they get the feeling something's watching them. They may hear you breathing, whatever. They may see your footprints tracking on the ground, or feel the brush of air as you pass. Moving around with all that gear on is work, and chain and metals weapons are both noisy and heavy. Eventually, you need to breathe deeper than normal for air. If you can track things that are stealthed or invis, why can't they?By the way, making a few of the mobs see through isn't just going to change things for scouts. It'll change it for mages too, as well as anyone else who may be using totems.

Necodem

10-06-2007, 04:17 AM

This is Shard of Fear, it shouldn't be a easy zone, mobs should be really really more powerfull. And they should see invis/stealth to avoid the fast farming groups ( or even solo). It's not because mobs see stealth that rogues will be useless, in a group you can still in stealth and attack, and do your freaking useless backstab.Some people ONLY want the zone to stay so, because it will be easy for them to kill all named and finish the instance in no time.And it should be more difficult than Nizara.

Sunlei

10-06-2007, 04:35 AM

well sure nothing sees invis. and there is no loot atm, why? because it's test and those things (see invis. and the real loot) get added when the zones go live. its enough of a 'free peek' at the new zone without making it to hard for test server people to even zone in. don't worry after you all kill a bunch of the mobs they can easy adjust just how tuff they are and they will <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> now they can just have the kill logs to study, so go ahead kill kill, say its to easy hehe if Fear will be more than a shadow of it's real self , once it's live you're gonna need a "break-in group" remember those? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Zarafein

10-06-2007, 04:42 AM

Some see stealth patrols would be nice, almost all see stealth like unrest wouldn't be so good imo. Detection when you get to close to someone or even use of the environment and so on(stuff like splinter cell,metal gear, tenchu....) would be great, but i doubt this will happen with all the other stuff they have to do.

Bre

10-06-2007, 08:22 AM

<cite>Sunlei wrote:</cite><blockquote>well sure nothing sees invis. and there is no loot atm, why? because it's test and those things (see invis. and the real loot) get added when the zones go live. its enough of a 'free peek' at the new zone without making it to hard for test server people to even zone in. don't worry after you all kill a bunch of the mobs they can easy adjust just how tuff they are and they will <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> now they can just have the kill logs to study, so go ahead kill kill, say its to easy hehe if Fear will be more than a shadow of it's real self , once it's live you're gonna need a "break-in group" remember those? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Test doesn't get a shot at the real loot untill a zone goes live? That's a new one to me. I'm kinda puzzled here so I really would like to hear an explanation for this. Brega - 70 Ranger, Test Server

Ramius613

10-06-2007, 03:39 PM

Ok, while I agree that some mobs should see invis, making them all see invis is kind of over the top. I look at stealth/invis as an archetype skill. The same way that fighters taunt, healers heal, and mages cast spells. Yes there is crossover between other classes being able to accomplish those things, but for the most part when I think scout, I think invis.Making a zone hard is not going to make it better. It's about the content inside that makes it interesting. Someone mentioned that SoS is a boring zone, and I do have to agree that now, after being out for a year and a half, with us being at 70, that is true. I still think that it is one of the best dungeons in the game though, because when it first came out, when everyone was 60, it was a challenge, and it also had a TON of quests, offered better gear compared to what we had, and scaled with difficulty the deeper you went.With EoF, the new dungeons lacked a lot of that. I blame most of it on the fact that they made the expansion from 1-70, so they had a lot to focus on, and not enough resources to give everything the attention it deserved. Nizara also falls into this category. Nizara is hard, and to a point of being rediculous vs the rewards one would receive from going in there. First, it is a PITA to navigate. Second, with the social aggro set up the way it was, if you didn't have a mezzer, your tank would need the finesse of a Russian balerina in order to pull one a group of mobs without also bringing down the entire zone on top of your heads. Now having to pull that way is fine every once in a while, but with Nizara, it was almost every time. The end boss in Nizara was a challenge, and you needed a good group with a good strategy to take her out, and I have no problem with that. The content (gear, quests, etc) was lacking though, and that does not help to give reason to go into a zone. Yes I have cleared it on more than one occasion, but the desire to go there is pretty much nil, imo.Unrest was a good instance. However, once you had gotten your class hat, chest piece, and whatever other shiny item out of there, again no reason to go back. I like Unrest, and now that it is a persistent zone it is much better, because with the amount of time it took when it first came out, it wasn't viable for a lot of people to run that play on a limited schedule.Castle Mistmoore, falls into the Nizara category, very difficult with not a lot of reward (with the exception of League gear, shoulders, pants, and a couple Sig quests) . It will probably be a good zone to grind XP once RoK comes out, but other than that I don't think it offers that much.In conclusion, my hope is that they make the Shard of Fear challenging, while also offering enough rewards to make people want to keep going back into it.

Zarafein

10-06-2007, 03:55 PM

Hm for me no dungeon had a faster interessting to boring ratio than sos, maybe it's just the art of this dungeon which made me sick for some reason.

Kendricke

10-06-2007, 07:10 PM

Sapphirius

10-06-2007, 07:52 PM

<cite>Lhangion@Innovation wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hm for me no dungeon had a faster interessting to boring ratio than sos, maybe it's just the art of this dungeon which made me sick for some reason.</blockquote>Claymore did it for me. I loved SOS until I did the Claymore line twice on Venekor. Now I'm dragging through it on one of my LDL girls and one of my AB girls. I'm sick of it... POA comes in as a close second as my least favorite because I'm sick of seeing it.

MrWolfie

10-07-2007, 12:19 PM

<cite>Darkhain@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is Shard of Fear, it shouldn't be a easy zone, mobs should be really really more powerfull. And they should see invis/stealth to avoid the fast farming groups ( or even solo). It's not because mobs see stealth that rogues will be useless, in a group you can still in stealth and attack, and do your freaking useless backstab.Some people ONLY want the zone to stay so, because it will be easy for them to kill all named and finish the instance in no time.And it should be more difficult than Nizara.</blockquote>Nope.This is a casual game. Heroic encounters should be balanced for a 3-character group of the same level , playing for under an hour, in treasured gear.And my opinion is as valid as yours is.

Couching

10-07-2007, 01:39 PM

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkhain@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is Shard of Fear, it shouldn't be a easy zone, mobs should be really really more powerfull. And they should see invis/stealth to avoid the fast farming groups ( or even solo). It's not because mobs see stealth that rogues will be useless, in a group you can still in stealth and attack, and do your freaking useless backstab.Some people ONLY want the zone to stay so, because it will be easy for them to kill all named and finish the instance in no time.And it should be more difficult than Nizara.</blockquote>Nope.This is a casual game. Heroic encounters should be balanced for a 3-character group of the same level , playing for under an hour, in treasured gear.And my opinion is as valid as yours is.</blockquote>Even it is heroic encounter, there should be difference between each encounter. Some are easier and some are harder.We have enough easy encounters already.

EtoilePirate

10-07-2007, 01:56 PM

<cite>Brega wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sunlei wrote:</cite><blockquote>well sure nothing sees invis. and there is no loot atm, why? because it's test and those things (see invis. and the real loot) get added when the zones go live. its enough of a 'free peek' at the new zone without making it to hard for test server people to even zone in. don't worry after you all kill a bunch of the mobs they can easy adjust just how tuff they are and they will <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /> now they can just have the kill logs to study, so go ahead kill kill, say its to easy hehe if Fear will be more than a shadow of it's real self , once it's live you're gonna need a "break-in group" remember those? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Test doesn't get a shot at the real loot untill a zone goes live? That's a new one to me. I'm kinda puzzled here so I really would like to hear an explanation for this. Brega - 70 Ranger, Test Server</blockquote>Especially as part of what we test is the loot. "11 out of 12 groups got the theoretically ultra-rare spawn, and we didn't?""Well, we killed six nameds and got nothing but treasured loot...""This chest keeps lodging itself in a mountain halfway across the zone..."Test gets the real loot, too. Sometimes in all sorts of fascinating incarnations. It's just that no-one but us cares. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Windowlicker

10-07-2007, 02:33 PM

<cite>Gareorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite> <blockquote>As it stands Scouts are literally the #1 class that tends to not follow the tank, not follow the group .. and get themselves and the group killed by wandering around touching things they shouldn't.</blockquote>Could you please point us to the specific statistics please? I'm not saying I don't believe you, but that is one incredible claim if you can't back it up with some real data.</blockquote>I don't even know why I'm responding to this, because it was so far out in left field that it made my head hurt reading it. Are we playing the same game? Have you made it past level 20?You need to look around a bit more if you haven't noticed this. It's so frequent there are even comic strips that touch on it.Here's your statistical proof Chuckles:<img src="http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/2118/ftw18rn0.jpg" alt="" border="0" />

Vis

10-07-2007, 02:39 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite> <blockquote>As it stands Scouts are literally the #1 class that tends to not follow the tank, not follow the group .. and get themselves and the group killed by wandering around touching things they shouldn't.</blockquote>I couldn't agree more with this observation. Based on my experience scouts tend to wander off and OH MY we have adds!Not saying all scouts do this, just a sizeable portion of them.

Gareorn

10-07-2007, 03:01 PM

A. It's not factual, it's an opinion. B. Reading it in a comic strip doesn't make it true. C. It's improper to introduce conjecture aimed at insulting an entire archtype. D. Doing so makes you look silly.

Sapphirius

10-07-2007, 03:04 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gareorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite> <blockquote>As it stands Scouts are literally the #1 class that tends to not follow the tank, not follow the group .. and get themselves and the group killed by wandering around touching things they shouldn't.</blockquote>Could you please point us to the specific statistics please? I'm not saying I don't believe you, but that is one incredible claim if you can't back it up with some real data.</blockquote>I don't even know why I'm responding to this, because it was so far out in left field that it made my head hurt reading it. Are we playing the same game? Have you made it past level 20?You need to look around a bit more if you haven't noticed this. It's so frequent there are even comic strips that touch on it.Here's your statistical proof Chuckles:</blockquote>I so love those comics. Hehehe. It's not statistical proof so much as it is an observation, and one that I happen to agree with. It seems like most of the adds I've gotten have occured because the scout wandered off to look at things thinking, "I'm in stealth. I'm safe to have a look see."I think the urge scouts have to wander off and bring adds comes from the the feeling they get that they should be wandering around "scouting" the area... even if said area doesn't need scouting. Then they meet Johnny Q. Uber Mob who sees trough invis and stealth and spots them, either because they've gotten careless or just plain silly.

The_Real_Ohno

10-07-2007, 04:29 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gareorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite> <blockquote>As it stands Scouts are literally the #1 class that tends to not follow the tank, not follow the group .. and get themselves and the group killed by wandering around touching things they shouldn't.</blockquote>Could you please point us to the specific statistics please? I'm not saying I don't believe you, but that is one incredible claim if you can't back it up with some real data.</blockquote>I don't even know why I'm responding to this, because it was so far out in left field that it made my head hurt reading it. Are we playing the same game? Have you made it past level 20?You need to look around a bit more if you haven't noticed this. It's so frequent there are even comic strips that touch on it.Here's your statistical proof Chuckles:<img src="http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/2118/ftw18rn0.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="800" height="700" /></blockquote>LOL That comic is awesome! Good laughs!BTW I see more Inqs and other classes besides Scouts that roam and get adds all the time! Shame on all u to be blamin us Scouts!

Windowlicker

10-07-2007, 04:42 PM

<cite>Gareorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>A. It's not factual, it's an opinion. B. Reading it in a comic strip doesn't make it true. C. It's improper to introduce conjecture aimed at insulting an entire archtype. D. Doing so makes you look silly.</blockquote>A. It's factual when we're discussing stealth. Scouts are the only classes with stealth. Because most of the scout classes rely on stealth for one or more attacks, they spend MORE time in stealth then out. B. Yes it does. Especially when people find the comic amusing. Would it be as amusing if you swapped the ranger for any other class? No it wouldn't.C. I like insulting archtypes. But in case you haven't noticed, I wasn't exactly insulting anyone was I? Just pointing out something that happens VERY frequently. I say this as a Tank, and I say this as a Scout.D. I'm a very silly person.

Gareorn

10-07-2007, 06:10 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>D. I'm a very silly person.</blockquote>If you say so. You're also unable to provide proof of your outrageous claims. Punching out.

Althena

10-08-2007, 01:18 PM

Grats to those of you that have fabled and relic gear - but please do not make this another zone that only a small percentage of people, that have time to waste away 40 hours a week playing, have time or gear to do.

Kizee

10-08-2007, 01:29 PM

Sapphirius

10-08-2007, 02:00 PM

<cite>Bladewing@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Grats to those of you that have fabled and relic gear - but please do not make this another zone that only a small percentage of people, that have time to waste away 40 hours a week playing, have time or gear to do.</blockquote>I don't think people are asking for a group zone that only raid-geared people can enter. They're asking for a group zone that is an actual challenge. Some people actually like being pushed to and beyond their limits to achieve something that may seem impossible. What is wrong with have just one zone out of the many that are coming out and the many that are already here that actually provides this challenge? Halls of Fate? 65s in treasured gear are clearing it. Unrest? It's more of a giant riddle than a challenge. Once you figure out the riddle, it's easy peasy. Plus, they made it persistant so that you don't have to do it in one sitting. Nizara so far is the only zone that provides an actual challenge to a group, and even then, I have gone in there with groups who were not raid-geared and in a less-than-optimal setup... and cleared the zone.As it stands right now, this zone is no challenge at all to anyone. Anyone remember the Plane of Fear in EQ1? OMG! You couldn't move in there without wiping, and if you were anywhere within range of a fearling, it was too late. They saw you, and they were bringing friends. I lost count of the number of times I had to have my corpse retrieved for me by SOE because I literally couldn't get to it. Having the Shard of Fear as easy as it currently is is a disappointment and a let down, especially to those who remember how Fear used to be.

Althena

10-08-2007, 03:14 PM

Then you are not reading the same post I am - scroll back a few pages and read - unrest difficulty zone is fine - doesn't need to be much harder than that - just my opinion - and at least I can give one without making personal attacks like the person 2 posts above - you don't know me, you have never played with me and you don't know my friends.

Kizee

10-08-2007, 03:22 PM

<cite>Bladewing@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Then you are not reading the same post I am - scroll back a few pages and read - unrest difficulty zone is fine - doesn't need to be much harder than that - just my opinion - and at least I can give one without making personal attacks like the person 2 posts above - you don't know me, you have never played with me and you don't know my friends.</blockquote>Well don't bring the raid gear/non raid gear debate into this thread. Every instance is doable with treasured/legendary equipment and thats what SoE balances around.IMO the only thing hard about unrest was figuring out the puzzles. The mobs are not overly tough.

Couching

10-08-2007, 04:29 PM

This game is all about progression and the progression should be based on risk = reward. Even for casual players, they still have progression from treasured grear to master crated gear to legendary gear or even to fabled from pick up raids.Should shard of fears be hard or not? It's quite simple.Are there going to drop better loots than unrest or not? If it is, then shard of fear should be harder than unrest. If not, it should be easier.Same logic, should shard of fear harder than Nizara? I would say yes, otherwise, SoE should upgrade loots from Nizara.

Sapphirius

10-08-2007, 04:32 PM

<cite>Bladewing@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Then you are not reading the same post I am - scroll back a few pages and read</blockquote>I did read, and it's you who are apparently not reading the same post as I am. Nowhere do I see the words written that this should be a zone only for people wearing raid gear. In fact, I read through the post three times before typing this. What I see is, and I quote, "This is Shard of Fear, it shouldn't be a easy zone, mobs should be really really more powerfull."There is a difference between requesting that a zone actually be a challenge and requesting that a zone should only be for raid-geared players.

Vollux

10-08-2007, 05:30 PM

I would like to see Shard of Fear a zone where it is impossible to move past content unless you are prepared to switch out from Stealth to Invis. Areas were the mobs can see Stealth but Not Invis then another area with mobs that See Invis but not Stealth. Heck why not throw in a few See Stealth & Invis wanderers just for an occasional 'heart in your throat moment'.

Cocytus

10-08-2007, 05:50 PM

I'd like to point out as it stands, brawlers do more scouting than scouts do. The only scouting scouts ever do is along the lines of, "Ok, we can go left into this room right next to us with a possible named or move forward. Hey is the named up? No, ok let's move on"Whereas brawlers feign-train through CMM and check on Mayong Mistmoore and all his underling nameds. Or train through EH to see what nameds spawned.Give me a break. Instead of making it so mobs see stealth, how about disabling group stealth in the zone? They disabled evac in Unrest and in one other t7 instance I can't remember atm. Why not just disable group stealth and group invis? And any invis that doesn't come from your knowledge book?

Sapphirius

10-08-2007, 06:11 PM

I fail to see how you could possibly be opposed to having one or two mobs in the zone that see through stealth or invis. Plus, I don't want to see the nightmare of coding that the developers would have to go through to have the zone distinguish between group and single invis/stealth and invis/stealth granted through items instead of spells/combat arts. Disabling evac in Unrest is one thing. No one could evac regardless of class or how the evac was done (spell/combat art/escape root/smoky vial/etc.) There was no need in Unrest to distinguish the type of evac or where it came from because you couldn't evac. Period.If you can give me a good, acceptable, and logical reason for why there should never ever ever be a single mob in the shard of Fear that can see through stealth/invis, then I'll drop out of the matter entirely. However, since I doubt one exists, you'll most likely be seeing a lot people in this thread who feel like I do. There should be a few mobs (not all and not most, just a few) who can see through stealth and invis.

Willias

10-08-2007, 07:24 PM

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Give me a break. Instead of making it so mobs see stealth, how about disabling group stealth in the zone? They disabled evac in Unrest and in one other t7 instance I can't remember atm. Why not just disable group stealth and group invis? And any invis that doesn't come from your knowledge book?</blockquote>Then stealth totems still exist and are still a problem.Quite frankly, SoE should add in a new stealth skill for scout classes that should be a super-stealth. One that is self-only, and fewer mobs can see through.As it is now, scouts don't get to "scout" because EVERYONE has access to stealth in some form.

MrWolfie

10-09-2007, 08:02 AM

<cite>Kizee@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the people that don't raid play it up and say its worse than it actually is. When me (templar) and my 2 friends (coercer, zerker) didn't raid (we all had treasued/legendary gear)we used to trio every instance besides niz back when HoF was hard.</blockquote>So, it's just a coincidence that all the people who complain that this game is too easy are raiders?You included.

MrWolfie

10-09-2007, 08:14 AM

<cite>Willias@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>As it is now, scouts don't get to "scout" because EVERYONE has access to stealth in some form.</blockquote>LOL. Scouts don't "scout" now, because there's *nothing* to scout FOR.What you want is proper content that perhaps lays random unseen Traps, that will cause bad things to happen should anyone fall in, get caught or trigger.However, they also need to avoidable by careful and/or skillful players irrespective of class. Since no content aimed at the majority of players should REQUIRE the presence of a specific archtype or, indeed, a full group.Let me know when you've figured out a way to do that, and not have it be trivial.

Necodem

10-09-2007, 08:46 AM

We want hard difficulty content, we already got a lot of easy heroic zone and the last hard heroic content was Nizara. It should be a really diffuclt zone like it was in EQ1.And for now the invis/stealth is breaking a part of the difficulty. For now it's a quick farm zone like nek3, and even doable in solo.And put some really good drops.

Kizee

10-09-2007, 09:08 AM

Tyrion

10-09-2007, 10:02 AM

This thread makes me laugh. Stealth is hardly useless. Stealth/Invisibility and the ability to Feign Death are the two most powerful abilities in the game.Is the former triviliazed to an extent by the use of Totems? They sure are, and putting bigger re-cast restrictions on said totems would be fair. What amuses me most though is that people want to "scout" in this game. Ummm, you're kidding me right? I'm sorry, but the extent of scouting in this game is clicking your Track button. This game simply has too many static spawns (and pre-set patrol paths that are always the same) in ALL zones, and you can reach a point where if you memorize a zone's lay-out, understanding where encounters stand and patrol follows shortly after, thus nullifying the need to scout at all.Scouts and Mages and any Fighter or Priest classes that can stealth/invis have an enormus one-up in terms of utility, allowing them to bypass substantial amounts of content in countless zones. The majority of overland zones can be stealthed through in their entirety, and I can think of a few dungeons where it certainly makes life easier, it not trivial. Expecting to run through a "difficult" heroic instance with stealth and getting past all of the encounters would defeat the purpose of the instance itself: a time sink. Everyone loves a challenging encounter/ring event, but we also know that having to blast our way through some mobs to get to them is the name of the game; don't expect it to change anytime soon.

liveja

10-09-2007, 10:35 AM

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote>Heroic encounters should be balanced for a 3-character group of the same level , playing for under an hour, in treasured gear.</blockquote>Nice sarcasm.

Siclone

10-09-2007, 10:37 AM

I see allot of silly posts here, but this one is one of the best.stealth invis is one of the most powerful abilities? lol I will keep it short, cause not worth my time to address this in a serious manner.Every single class can invis. lol every one! you cant do anything while invised.....all invis does, is slow your movement speed. all mobs in instance zones and dungeons, see invis,,,,the only thing invis is good for is traveling over land where there are allot of non see invis mobs, however, more often then not is simple easier to train them, cause its faster and eaiser. invis is stupid in this game,,,it should have been modeled after EQ1.....they do invis right there

liveja

10-09-2007, 10:43 AM

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, it's just a coincidence that all the people who complain that this game is too easy are raiders?You included.</blockquote>I have some raid gear, but I am not a raider. It's been well over 2 months since I've been in a raid zone.Nonetheless, IMHO, EQ2 is too easy.Your over-generalization fails.

liveja

10-09-2007, 10:48 AM

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>all mobs in instance zones and dungeons, see invis</blockquote>You might want to clarify this statement: which dungeons? which mobs?Because, see, I *know* you're not going to claim that ALL mobs in ALL dungeon/instance zones see thru stealth.Edit: BTW, I can disarm trapped chests, loot mobs, open doors, & activate most quest widgets while stealthed. Who says I can't do "anything" while stealthed?

Necodem

10-09-2007, 11:00 AM

Here are some ideas for invis/stealth :-while in stealth/invis you don't know if target see you or not ( all target remains with the aggro aura on their names, as if you were not in invis/stealth)-mobs have a chance to see invis/stealth generated all X seconds (like 5s ) and with X% chance ( like 25% )-or stealth/invis have a chance to break every X seconds with X% chance and the chance to break for solo classs stealth/invis < grp stealth/invis < totem/itemand against the FD :-lots of mobs ( especialy roamers) in there have a chance to proc a AE fear

Terron

10-09-2007, 11:04 AM

<cite>Ookami-san wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I get sick of people without certain skills complaining that it makes things easier for those that have them. Guess what... if my swashy had taunts and could wear plate... it'd be EASIER for me to solo things. In fact, if I could play songs while wearing plate casting massive DDs while my pet pummeled things and I healed myself... that would make it easier too... oh wait... I can't do any of that stuff... so.... let's nerf the zone so no one else can heal, cast, summon, taunt or tank...</blockquote>Your swashy has a taunt. It does not make it any easier to solo things because aggro control is useless solo.

Kendricke

10-09-2007, 11:46 AM

I don't need nor want every dungeon to be filled with night on impossible difficulty. I like dungeons that don't require as much skill or gear, such as Kaladim, Obelisk of Blight, Achadecism, Crypt of Valdoon and so forth. Even Unrest isn't terribly difficult - it just takes a while for some players.But we're not talking about dungeons that shouldn't require as much skill or gear here. We're talking about part of the home of the God of Fear, Cazic-Thule the Faceless. You know, the Shard of FEAR - the native home of the Dracoliche, Fright, Dread, Terror, and the entire Amagaldyan race. Yeah, I want my Shard of Fear to be difficult. I would like to think that the denizens of a Plane are a tad harder than the Nayad of Nizara, even. I'd certainly think they should be more difficult than mere Shadowed Men and Kobolds. But that's just me. I guess I like the idea that the first steps into a home of the Gods since they blew up the moon and shattered the ccontinents should be a tad...well, hard.

Norrsken

10-09-2007, 11:52 AM

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the people that don't raid play it up and say its worse than it actually is. When me (templar) and my 2 friends (coercer, zerker) didn't raid (we all had treasued/legendary gear)we used to trio every instance besides niz back when HoF was hard.</blockquote>So, it's just a coincidence that all the people who complain that this game is too easy are raiders?You included.</blockquote>I have not raided since pre-dof, and I still think the game is too easy.I dont think the answer is mobs that hit like freight trains, everything see invis and stuff like that. the base of the problem is, every last [Removed for Content] mob use the same combat script. Its all exactly the same, but with different names tagged to the damage you recieve. No mobs kite, no mobs root and nuke, and virtually no mobs heal. Or call fo raid.Its all just "Arg, me see you! Me run you!"... and that kind of AI belongs in the 80ies.And its not just eq2 that suffers from this [Removed for Content] AI, its every last MMO I ever tried.

hobi

10-09-2007, 12:09 PM

one thing that seems to not not have been brought up but perhaps i missed it. is the fact if every thing was made to see vis/stealth assasins/rangers or prob other scout classes only played the two . would make ranges/assasins useless to even have in a group as most of thier dps comes from ca's that require them to be stealth/invs. so if any thing they i can afew wanders along with some here and there but not the majority as some suggested.just my 2 cents

fbi

10-09-2007, 12:12 PM

<cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the people that don't raid play it up and say its worse than it actually is. When me (templar) and my 2 friends (coercer, zerker) didn't raid (we all had treasued/legendary gear)we used to trio every instance besides niz back when HoF was hard.</blockquote>So, it's just a coincidence that all the people who complain that this game is too easy are raiders?You included.</blockquote>I have not raided since pre-dof, and I still think the game is too easy.I dont think the answer is mobs that hit like freight trains, everything see invis and stuff like that. the base of the problem is, every last [I cannot control my vocabulary] mob use the same combat script. Its all exactly the same, but with different names tagged to the damage you recieve. No mobs kite, no mobs root and nuke, and virtually no mobs heal. Or call fo raid.Its all just "Arg, me see you! Me run you!"... and that kind of AI belongs in the 80ies.And its not just eq2 that suffers from this [I cannot control my vocabulary] AI, its every last MMO I ever tried.</blockquote>My understanding (I'm not a programmer) is that advanced AI routines are CPU intensive, and the CPU in online games are busy doing things like path finding, relational database tracking (unique identifiers and such), reporting the locations of the players, etc. Even with today's advanced CPUs I still don't believe it's possible yet to have non-scripted advanced mob AI. Which leads me to wonder how you make something "hard" (without using scripting) for fully mastered/fabled folks while not making it well nigh impossible for those that aren't .... (idle speculation on my part, as I won't/can't do this or any zone intended for full groups .)

Sapphirius

10-09-2007, 12:58 PM

I'm still waiting for a good reason as to why there shouldn't be even one see-stealth/invis mob in the zone.

liveja

10-09-2007, 01:19 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm still waiting for a good reason as to why there shouldn't be even one see-stealth/invis mob in the zone.</blockquote>Once it goes live, I'd imagine there will be quite a few, as there should be.

Sapphirius

10-09-2007, 01:28 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm still waiting for a good reason as to why there shouldn't be even one see-stealth/invis mob in the zone.</blockquote>Once it goes live, I'd imagine there will be quite a few, as there should be.</blockquote>Well then, that kind of make the whole debate a moot point doesn't it?

liveja

10-09-2007, 01:52 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well then, that kind of make the whole debate a moot point doesn't it?</blockquote>Yep.

Willias

10-09-2007, 03:33 PM

<cite>Ryos@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>one thing that seems to not not have been brought up but perhaps i missed it. is the fact if every thing was made to see vis/stealth assasins/rangers or prob other scout classes only played the two . would make ranges/assasins useless to even have in a group as most of thier dps comes from ca's that require them to be stealth/invs. so if any thing they i can afew wanders along with some here and there but not the majority as some suggested.just my 2 cents</blockquote>Last I checked, a mob being able to see through stealth or invis does not prevent you from being so. Mobs seeing through stealth wouldn't have any effect on CAs.

miliskel

10-09-2007, 04:06 PM

<cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the people that don't raid play it up and say its worse than it actually is. When me (templar) and my 2 friends (coercer, zerker) didn't raid (we all had treasued/legendary gear)we used to trio every instance besides niz back when HoF was hard.</blockquote>So, it's just a coincidence that all the people who complain that this game is too easy are raiders?You included.</blockquote>I have not raided since pre-dof, and I still think the game is too easy.I dont think the answer is mobs that hit like freight trains, everything see invis and stuff like that. the base of the problem is, every last [I cannot control my vocabulary] mob use the same combat script. Its all exactly the same, but with different names tagged to the damage you recieve. No mobs kite, no mobs root and nuke, and virtually no mobs heal. Or call fo raid.Its all just "Arg, me see you! Me run you!"... and that kind of AI belongs in the 80ies.And its not just eq2 that suffers from this [I cannot control my vocabulary] AI, its every last MMO I ever tried.</blockquote>i like the idea, but maybe some invis mobs in the game please? i think i saw a few in lavastorm, abotu 3 of them and none ever since, i mean , how about a dragon the spawns somewhere random in stealth?root and nuke mobs, they are half way there, the mob roots u but it doesnt go away and nuke u , perhaps script it to do so when it casts its root spell and start a new casting order, more of a random script to there attacks would make the game so much better <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Freliant

10-09-2007, 04:24 PM

Fear mobs now have See-Invis and a larger agro radius post last patch. Kill difficulty is still the same (roughtly the same difficulty of Unrest). Moving around the zone-in area will probably get you agro from patrols, and there are less "safe spots" than before... still enough to do a descent run through the zone.You ask for more difficulty, you get more difficulty.

Giland

10-09-2007, 05:07 PM

Why not make it adjustable ?Normal, difficult, end gamer onlyMake all loot the same regardless of difficulty.Then everyone is happy. Those who want a ultra tough dungeon, knock yourself out.Each level of difficulty, add +2 to the level range of the mob, increase dps 100%.Problem solved, everyone is happy.On a side note...ADD A MIDRANGE BOW THAT SUMMONS T8 ARROWS !Something to fill the huge gap that exists in bows.

LordPazuzu

10-09-2007, 05:07 PM

These mobs are supposed to be extra-planar entities. It makes sense the that more powerful ones should be able to see invis or certain species of mob should get it as a racial trait. It makes sense that some of them should be able to cast it as a spell even. These are supposed to be very powerful entities on their home plane. It's supposed to be a piece of a divine realm. I'd go so far as to say Cazic-Thule could alter the reality of it so far as to make entire spell/ability lines useless. I think it would pose an interesting challenge if each class had an important ability line that was simply inoperative while in the zone. It would force players to play creatively."how about a dragon the spawns somewhere random in stealth?" That would be awesome. Reminds me of Woushi from EQ1. He'd spawn in the druid ring in Wakening Lands and cast Treeform on himself. He'd then proceed to blast the crap out of players as they teleported in.

Sapphirius

10-09-2007, 05:17 PM

Ugh! I remember that! Running around and then THWAP! Huh? Run around again and THWAP! What was that? Read the combat logs, and you think, "What's a Woushi?" After another thwap or two, you look up and see this dragon the exact same color as the trees above you following you around.As for scaling the difficulty to you can pick when you enter the zone? The devs did that with Splitpaw. Their response after Splitpaw was released was "never again." I'm assuming this to be for good reason and for reasons other than just loot and people farming the place.

Cocytus

10-09-2007, 07:47 PM

I actually liked one of the earlier ideas - SUPER STEALTH.In eq1, rogues had an AA called Shroud of Stealth.I think giving scouts an ability like this would be better. Very few mobs except for like, end-of-the-zone-bosses (usually raids, though I can understand instances seeing through as well), and it was only useable, of course, on yourself (the rogue).They really need to give scouts something like that.

MrWolfie

10-10-2007, 07:32 AM

<cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have not raided since pre-dof, and I still think the game is too easy.</blockquote>If it's so easy, how come one in every ten mobs has killed you?(according to your own signature).

MrWolfie

10-10-2007, 08:03 AM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, it's just a coincidence that all the people who complain that this game is too easy are raiders?You included.</blockquote>I have some raid gear, but I am not a raider. It's been well over 2 months since I've been in a raid zone.Nonetheless, IMHO, EQ2 is too easy.Your over-generalization fails.</blockquote>No it doesn't. If you have raid gear, you are or have been, a raider. Not only does your opinion on heroic content have no value to me, I would go as far as to say that if you do heroic content with more than three people I'd be likely to disagree on what you find "easy" versus what I do.<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>But that's just me. I guess I like the idea that the first steps into a home of the Gods since they blew up the moon and shattered the ccontinents should be a tad...well, hard. </blockquote>And your definition of "hard" obviously differs from mine and quite probably from a great many players' too. There are those who would want it even more difficult than you, because opinions differ. Who's right?You may talk a good argument, but this game is supposed to be casual, and if there's one thing *you're* not, it's casual.Personally, I believe that Nizara is a mistake (and so are guilds and raids, tbh) and tha t level should dictate difficulty. Sure, mobs can have special attacks or tricks, but they've got to be overcomeable by any skilled player of any class. And that's half the trouble, there's NO TACTICS in EQ2. It's just zerg the mobs with good gear and as many characters as you can. Mash those buttons!What does adding see-invis to the mobs in Shard do to alter this concept? Nothing whatever. In fact, it only reinforces it.

liveja

10-10-2007, 09:42 AM

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not only does your opinion on heroic content have no value to me</blockquote>Whether or not my opinion on any aspect of this game has "value" to you, or to anyone other than myself, is entirely irrelevant.However, if you wish to play that little game: your opinion of what constitutes a "raider" has no value to me. I guess that puts us at an impasse.Have a nice day.

Sapphirius

10-10-2007, 11:57 AM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not only does your opinion on heroic content have no value to me</blockquote>Whether or not my opinion on any aspect of this game has "value" to you, or to anyone other than myself, is entirely irrelevant.However, if you wish to play that little game: your opinion of what constitutes a "raider" has no value to me. I guess that puts us at an impasse.Have a nice day.</blockquote><huggles>?After she's already stated that her opinion is as valid as yours, she claims your opinions are invalidated because you have a couple pieces of fabled. That right there invalidates any arguements she could present from this point forward... especially seeing as most EOF legendary is as good and often better than KOS fabled.

MrWolfie

10-11-2007, 08:25 AM

Just what's this thread about?1.That shard of fear isn't hard enough for people in fabled equipment?2.That scouts should get super stealth?3.That nothing sees invis in SoF?4.That the entire game is too easy?My question is: so what?1. People who raid have no rights to complain that the game is too easy. They made their bed, now they gotta lie in it.I find it especially laughable when their own stats show they die in every 1 out of 10 encounters. Yes, some of my characters have fabled equipment. Yes! That means I have raided!! However, I'm not the one complaining that the game's too easy. I'm capable of setting my own challenges and dying = failure afaic.I also hardly ever do content with a full group. In fact, 90% of my time is spent duoing.Heroic content is not designed for people wearing fabled equipment. It's not even designed for full groups (or shouldn't be, according to con messages). That's just how it is. Although, if there were NO RAIDS at all, this wouldn't be a problem for anyone.2. So, while SoF isn't hard enough (allegedly), there are some people who want extra skills. This makes sense. Not.Currently, there is no reason for a Scout to "scout". There are no mechanisms in this game which require anyone to scout ahead. And unless *any* class has a way to do it, neither should there be. No class should be an imperative requirement.3. So nothing sees through invis in SoF. Big deal. Does adding see invis to a few mobs really make the instance more difficult for a full group? Will it make a group change its tactics? Not in the least. Adding see invis hasn't improved this zone, nor added any challenge for groups of the right l evel ~ it certainly hasn't changed the way Nozomi (for example) will play this zone. Has it?4. Again, who is telling us that the game is too easy?Well, if you're not a raider, have no fabled equipment and do everything with three people or less, then maybe it is too easy. But, if you're like me, or worse, you are a confirmed three nights a week raider, you (AND I) have no qualifications to state that it's too easy. I duo and I think the game is fine.If you're going at it mob-handed, then your experiences may differ.<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>After she's already stated that her opinion is as valid as yours, she claims your opinions are invalidated because you have a couple pieces of fabled. That right there invalidates any arguements she could present from this point forward... especially seeing as most EOF legendary is as good and often better than KOS fabled.</blockquote>Bingo.His opinion. My opinion. Your opinion. All as valid as each other. That is to say, on the subject of this game being too easy, having no value whatever. Unless you're a true casual player, which I doubt *anyone* posting here is ~ especially anyone TESTING ~ opinions that it's too easy are tainted by our experience, the resources we can call upon and the equipment we wear. How many times do you see players asking the most mundane questions in chat about the game. Easy stuff that could be gleaned from the patch notes even. They are the people this game is aimed at. You/We are in the minority. The question you have to ask yourself is not is it too easy for you, but is it easy enough for them? And what can we make trickier, what improvements can we make to the ADVENTURE that don't alienate, but stimulate!For me, simply adding see invis to a bunch of mobs isn't an answer to anything. It's not going to affect my main (a monk), it's not going to affect Nozomi, and whatever class Flaye plays, I highly doubt it's not going to affect him either. So what was the point?

Necodem

10-11-2007, 08:46 AM

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just what's this thread about?1.That shard of fear isn't hard enough for people in fabled equipment?2.That scouts should get super stealth?3.That nothing sees invis in SoF?4.That the entire game is too easy?My question is: so what?1. People who raid have no rights to complain that the game is too easy. They made their bed, now they gotta lie in it.I find it especially laughable when their own stats show they die in every 1 out of 10 encounters. Yes, some of my characters have fabled equipment. Yes! That means I have raided!! However, I'm not the one complaining that the game's too easy. I'm capable of setting my own challenges and dying = failure afaic.I also hardly ever do content with a full group. In fact, 90% of my time is spent duoing.Heroic content is not designed for people wearing fabled equipment. It's not even designed for full groups (or shouldn't be, according to con messages). That's just how it is. Although, if there were NO RAIDS at all, this wouldn't be a problem for anyone. Heroic content IS designed for full group.Fabled equipment helps, but it doesn't makes all differences. People in full legendary EoF stuff do all instance so easily. And we already got too many easy instance.2. So, while SoF isn't hard enough (allegedly), there are some people who want extra skills. This makes sense. Not.Currently, there is no reason for a Scout to "scout". There are no mechanisms in this game which require anyone to scout ahead. And unless *any* class has a way to do it, neither should there be. No class should be an imperative requirement.I agree with this point.3. So nothing see through invis in SoF. Big deal. Does adding see invis to a few mobs really make the instance more difficult for a full group? Will it make a group change its tactics? Not in the least. Adding see invis hasn't improved this zone, nor added any challenge for groups of the right l evel ~ it certainly hasn't changed the way Nozomi (for example) will play this zone. Has it?Adding see invis/stealth mobs will avoid the one who'll try to complete the instance in no time.4. Again, who is telling us that the game is too easy?Well, if you're not a raider, have no fabled equipment and do everything with three people or less, then maybe it is too easy. But, if you're like me, or worse, you are a confirmed three nights a week raider, you (AND I) have no qualifications to state that it's too easy. I duo and I think the game is fine.If you're going at it mob-handed, then your experiences may differ.Again heroic content is supposed to be done by a full group ( not all content but at least dungeon), so you're saying that you're doing all this content in a duo, that just mean it's too easy.</blockquote>

MrWolfie

10-11-2007, 09:57 AM

<cite>Darkhain@Venekor wrote:</cite>Heroic content IS designed for full group.I'm sorry, that's just not true. The game itself confirms that heroic content is balanced for three people of the right level.Fabled equipment helps, but it doesn't makes all differences. People in full legendary EoF stuff do all instance so easily. And we already got too many easy instance.This does more than "help". <img src="http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/5779/snap009tm2.jpg" alt="" border="0" />Not to mention that of the three of my characters at level 70, only two of them have any EOF legendary, and then only one or two pieces. Not complete sets. Casual players won't be running around with complete sets either.Adding see invis/stealth mobs will avoid the one who'll try to complete the instance in no time.Which has nothing to do with you. What other people do, how other people implement their characters' skills in the pursuit of enjoyment is not your domain. You're not complaining that this zone is too easy FOR YOU. You want to stop someone else doing something you can't, or don't want to. The changes you've asked for have not made this zone any harder for you. Again heroic content is supposed to be done by a full group ( not all content but at least dungeon)(Not according to the game. Three or more, it says. More is OPTIONAL.)So you're saying that you're doing all this content in a duo, that just mean it's too easy.I do duo everything I can. I never said I duoed SoF though. But I will try. I will try to duo anything, and if I don't suceed I'll come back with more levels and better gear if it's at all possible. That doesn't make the game too easy. Only it seems I'm capable of setting myself challenges within the game that are not to the detriment of other casual players or their abilities.

Kizee

10-11-2007, 10:38 AM

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkhain@Venekor wrote:</cite>Heroic content IS designed for full group.I'm sorry, that's just not true. The game itself confirms that heroic content is balanced for three people of the right level.Fabled equipment helps, but it doesn't makes all differences. People in full legendary EoF stuff do all instance so easily. And we already got too many easy instance.This does more than "help". <img src="http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/5779/snap009tm2.jpg" border="0" alt="" />Not to mention that of the three of my characters at level 70, only two of them have any EOF legendary, and then only one or two pieces. Not complete sets. Casual players won't be running around with complete sets either.Adding see invis/stealth mobs will avoid the one who'll try to complete the instance in no time.Which has nothing to do with you. What other people do, how other people implement their characters' skills in the pursuit of enjoyment is not your domain. You're not complaining that this zone is too easy FOR YOU. You want to stop someone else doing something you can't, or don't want to. The changes you've asked for have not made this zone any harder for you. Again heroic content is supposed to be done by a full group ( not all content but at least dungeon)(Not according to the game. Three or more, it says. More is OPTIONAL.)So you're saying that you're doing all this content in a duo, that just mean it's too easy.I do duo everything I can. I never said I duoed SoF though. But I will try. I will try to duo anything, and if I don't suceed I'll come back with more levels and better gear if it's at all possible. That doesn't make the game too easy. Only it seems I'm capable of setting myself challenges within the game that are not to the detriment of other casual players or their abilities.</blockquote>You can't use that as an example of typical fabled loot. That is avatar loot (the best of the best) and there are only 2 of them on our server. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />You duo most of the game already then the game is too easy. Whats the point of SoE making groups of 6 people if the whole heroic game can be duoed? If they intended that to be the case then the group sizes would be 2 people.From your posts it seems like you are just a boxer that is angry they can't farm instances easy.

Sapphirius

10-11-2007, 12:45 PM

First off, I know plenty of "casual" gamers in full EOF gear minus the pants. EOF has been around for a long time now and so has the gear. I'd also contend that, if you are at 70, you no longer qualify as a "casual" gamer. Casual gamers are those ones still in the lower levels. You're an end gamer. It's just that your end game is different from mine. Also, judging by your signature, I'd venture a guess that you get in plenty of game time. This also surpasses the rank of a "casual" gamer.Second, only two of my 70s actually raid. The others do not and aren't even in raid gear. They have a few pieces of EOF legendary and then mostly dropped legendary and treasured from other places. My Test girls are not in raid gear. My time on Test is used to actually test things, not raid. (I never test copied any of my characters. I rolled compeltely new ones and leveled them up.)Third, what you posted is not typical fabled loot. Very, and I do mean VERY, few people are ever going to have access to avatar loot. The ones that do aren't posting in this thread.Fourth, groups are balanced for 3 to 6 players, not 3 alone. The game confirms that group encounters are designed for three or more people, three being the minimum that should be able to handle a heroic of equal level.Fifth, if you are duoing everything, then it is indeed too easy.Sixth, Nozomi is not affected except for her ability to use Windwalk and totems. My warden is not affected either, except for her ability to use totems. However, my warlock is affected. Last I checked, she had the ability to invis as part of her arsenal. My fury does as well. Do not pretend to know what will and what will not affect me. The simply truth of the matter is that you don't know about anyone else in this game except yourself.And finally, like your signature, you are beating a dead horse. See stealth/invis mobs are being placed in this dungeon regardless of any arguements presented in this thread.

Kizee

10-11-2007, 01:00 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Third, what you posted is not typical fabled loot. Very, and I do mean VERY, few people are ever going to have access to avatar loot. The ones that do aren't posting in this thread.</blockquote>Actually thats not true. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> My guild kills avatars but funny thing is I have no interest in that staff. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Sapphirius

10-11-2007, 01:20 PM

<cite>Kizee@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Third, what you posted is not typical fabled loot. Very, and I do mean VERY, few people are ever going to have access to avatar loot. The ones that do aren't posting in this thread.</blockquote>Actually thats not true. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> My guild kills avatars but funny thing is I have no interest in that staff. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Neither do I. I require a buckler for my AA ability, Tortoise Shell. Also, I'm not in a guild or alliance that could rally quickly enough to take down an avatar before the other two "hardcore" raid guilds take them out.

liveja

10-11-2007, 05:10 PM

<cite>Kizee@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You duo most of the game already then the game is too easy.</blockquote>Precisely.What was the point of this thread? That there weren't any mobs in SoF that could see through invis or stealth. Why is that an issue? Because that fact made SoF unique, among all dungeons of which I'm aware. If not even the *named* mobs could see through stealth, that is a problem, because clever Rogues like me, using Group Stealth, can easily take groups from named mob to named mob & farm away.I'm kinda stunned that some people don't see that as an issue. Perhaps those people were concerned that their four-boxed farming groups wouldn't be able to farm SoF as efficiently if some mobs were placed in it that could see through stealth & invis?In any event, it has apparently been changed. If that's true, can this thread please now revert to discussion of whether or not those mobs are functioning correctly, & other *in testing* things of that sort that are relevant to this zone? Because, seriously, the rest of this "raider-vs-casual" blather simply doesn't belong in this forum.

Gungo

10-11-2007, 06:42 PM

Imho all group stealth should be changed to group invis.All magical based mobs (and named) should see invisSee Stealth should be reserved for extremely powerful creatures epics and most named. Only rogues and predators should have single target stealth. bards should have self invis.

MrWolfie

10-12-2007, 08:10 AM

<cite>Kizee@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>From your posts it seems like you are just a boxer that is angry they can't farm instances easy.</blockquote>Heh, well if I'm presuming about you guys, what's this?I play the game with my partner (and very occasionally, my best friend ~ who is mainly a soloer). If we couldn't play this game the way we want, we wouldn't bother. Duos are a perfectly legitimate group and partners playing EQ2 together are a vital part of the casual game.I never said I was casual though, even though sometimes, in comparison to others, I think I am very casual in my approach. I have 6 characters over 50, and three capped at 70/70/100. I am in a guild, with my partner. We're level 46. As you can see I play hard.My main contentions are:1. The game is not too easy for me. Your experiences may differ. How I play is just as legitimate as the way you do, but apparently you're not even willing to concede that. Nevertheless, this is not supposed to be a hard-core game, if that's what you want I'd suggest looking elsewhere 'cos I'm going to keep banging on: Casual at level 1, casual at level 70.2. Adding see-invis to SoF isn't an improvement to the zone. It makes no difference to the people asking for it and doesn't alter the difficulty level, which is the *reason* they're giving to have it altered. I'd ask that you consider your reasons for asking to have it and be honest. You don't like farmers? Fine, say so. But don't hand me rubbish about how it's "too easy for you and see invis will fix that".

liveja

10-12-2007, 10:22 AM

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote>You don't like farmers? Fine, say so. But don't ha nd me rubbish about how it's "too easy for you and see invis will fix that".</blockquote>Adding mobs that can see thru stealth & invis makes it MORE DIFFICULT (i.e., no longer too easy) for farmers to exploit the zone. Without that change, the zone becomes TOO EASY (i.e., less difficult) for clever Rogues like me. I've already explained this in my previous post, so I don't understand this response from you at all.The two concepts -- making it "more difficult" for farmers by improving a zone that is "too easy" -- are connected. I'm surprised you seem to think otherwise.

Valdaglerion

10-12-2007, 01:04 PM

Once again, I think we are back to the conclusion that all instances should be scaled have have 3 versions - solo/heroic/epic and have their rewards scaled accordingly.This levels the field for all playstyles and gets to share the content through and through for all players. Its interesting to me why this methodology has not been adopted yet by SOE for developing their instances when it gives them so much reuse and more "mileage" if you will out of their design efforts with just a little more development effort.All the raid zones could now be used by all players, not jsut the 1% that raid if items and mobs were adjusted. nothing wrong with having varying levels of weapondry is there, after all, we have varying levels of spells...hmmmm...Why cant there be a Treasured/Legendary/Fabled version of the weapons and have them drop from those instances? Personally I would like to see all the instances changed to this. It expands your playstyle choices IMO. Not in a raiding guild but want to checkout death toll, grab your grouping buddies and do the heroic instance! Knock yourself out.

liveja

10-12-2007, 01:08 PM

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote>Once again, I think we are back to the conclusion that all instances should be scaled</blockquote>But it would seem that SOE has already rejected that conclusion, after its experience with Splitpaw.In any event, that conclusion is irrelevant to this thread, which is about the former lack of mobs in SoF that could see thru stealth, & that said former lack has been eliminated.

vochore

10-12-2007, 01:09 PM

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote>Once again, I think we are back to the conclusion that all instances should be scaled have have 3 versions - solo/heroic/epic and have their rewards scaled accordingly.This levels the field for all playstyles and gets to share the content through and through for all players. Its interesting to me why this methodology has not been adopted yet by SOE for developing their instances when it gives them so much reuse and more "mileage" if you will out of their design efforts with just a little more development effort.All the raid zones could now be used by all players, not jsut the 1% that raid if items and mobs were adjusted. nothing wrong with having varying levels of weapondry is there, after all, we have varying levels of spells...hmmmm...Why cant there be a Treasured/Legendary/Fabled version of the weapons and have them drop from those instances? Personally I would like to see all the instances changed to this. It expands your playstyle choices IMO. Not in a raiding guild but want to checkout death toll, grab your grouping buddies and do the heroic instance! Knock yourself out.</blockquote>QFE.........couldent have said it any better myself....why should only hardcore raiders get to see some zones.

Couching

10-12-2007, 01:47 PM

some people just want fast loots or even free loots.They don't even care about risk vs reward. Dev should just put an npc at the entrance of every instance, you can get free loots by hailing npc every 18 hours.

Sapphirius

10-12-2007, 01:55 PM

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. The game is not too easy for me. Your experiences may differ. How I play is just as legitimate as the way you do, but apparently you're not even willing to concede that. Nevertheless, this is not supposed to be a hard-core game, if that's what you want I'd suggest looking elsewhere 'cos I'm going to keep banging on: Casual at level 1, casual at level 70.</blockquote>And that is where you would be wrong. You see, like other MMOs, EQ2 has to cater to three different playstyles: solo, group, and raid. Some elements of the game are meant to be easy while others are, in fact, meant to be "hardcore." If they did not cater to these three different playstyles, then their subscription rate would most likely suffer tremendously. You will find this is true in just about every MMO out there. It sounds like you want EQ2 to cater only to... you. It sounds like you want everything to be your way and to heck with anybody else. Well, this isn't Burger King. This is EQ2. If all of EQ2 were entirely doable by a duo, then they would lose a large number of people who truly do enjoy a challenge.It's the same debate with the suggestion for making instances and dungeons scale. There was a big long debate over it, and the general conclusion was that scaling instances would devalue the effort put forth by raiders. Not to mention, SOE did this in Splitpaw, and their response afterwards was "never again." While I would love for everyone in the game to see these end game raid zones, unless they put forth the time (or at least the effort) to work towards it, they aren't going to see it. Truthfully, the end game raid zones look pretty much the same as the regular end game zones... just different mobs and more difficulty. Well, no, I take that back. Deathtoll had a pretty unique look to it.As it currently stands, EQ2 caters to casual players and hardcore. It caters to end game players and mid game and beginning game. It caters to soloers, groupers, and raiders. Saying that EQ2 was not meant to be hardcore is a fallacy because clearly some elements were meant to be just that.

Generic123

10-12-2007, 05:21 PM

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee@Befallen wrote:</cite>My main contentions are:1. The game is not too easy for me. Your experiences may differ. How I play is just as legitimate as the way you do, but apparently you're not even willing to concede that. Nevertheless, this is not supposed to be a hard-core game, if that's what you want I'd suggest looking elsewhere 'cos I'm going to keep banging on: Casual at level 1, casual at level 70.2. Adding see-invis to SoF isn't an improvement to the zone. It makes no difference to the people asking for it and doesn't alter the difficulty level, which is the *reason* they're giving to have it altered. I'd ask that you consider your reasons for asking to have it and be honest. You don't like farmers? Fine, say so. But don't hand me rubbish about how it's "too easy for you and see invis will fix that". </blockquote>If nothing sees invis there is no point having them there at all because everyone can and everyone will simply walk past them, kill the named and finish the zone in 20 min. If the challenge level is about right for you in a duo how do you think it feels to people who enjoy larger groups? If everything can be completed with 2 people then there is no content, nothing whatsoever, for people who like groups of 3-6 people. Don't try and say "but they can team up in groups of 6 and do this 2 person content", it's absurd. It's going to make the game boring as s*** for them.

BBCBan

10-12-2007, 08:22 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. The game is not too easy for me. Your experiences may differ. How I play is just as legitimate as the way you do, but apparently you're not even willing to concede that. Nevertheless, this is not supposed to be a hard-core game, if that's what you want I'd suggest looking elsewhere 'cos I'm going to keep banging on: Casual at level 1, casual at level 70.</blockquote>And that is where you would be wrong. You see, like other MMOs, EQ2 has to cater to three different playstyles: solo, group, and raid. Some elements of the game are meant to be easy while others are, in fact, meant to be "hardcore." If they did not cater to these three different playstyles, then their subscription rate would most likely suffer tremendously. You will find this is true in just about every MMO out there. It sounds like you want EQ2 to cater only to... you. It sounds like you want everything to be your way and to heck with anybody else. Well, this isn't Burger King. This is EQ2. If all of EQ2 were entirely doable by a duo, then they would lose a large number of people who truly do enjoy a challenge.It's the same debate with the suggestion for making instances and dungeons scale. There was a big long debate over it, and the general conclusion was that scaling instances would devalue the effort put forth by raiders. Not to mention, SOE did this in Splitpaw, and their response afterwards was "never again." While I would love for everyone in the game to see these end game raid zones, unless they put forth the time (or at least the effort) to work towards it, they aren't going to see it. Truthfully, the end game raid zones look pretty much the same as the regular end game zones... just different mobs and more difficulty. Well, no, I take that back. Deathtoll had a pretty unique look to it.As it currently stands, EQ2 caters to casual players and hardcore. It caters to end game players and mid game and beginning game. It caters to soloers, groupers, and raiders. Saying that EQ2 was not meant to be hardcore is a fallacy because clearly some elements were meant to be just that.</blockquote>On the contrary, I think MrWolfie is correct. It appears to me, that you Sapphirius, want the game to only be catered to your playstyle. You see, some of us have jobs and families and you know, real life things that really matter. These things take priority over games. Let's not forget, we all pay the same amount to SOE each month, your money is no more important to them than mine is. Therefore, we should all be entitled to see the same content as a hardcore gamer, even if it is for watered down rewards (as it should be). The fact of the matter is, you are just another person sitting behind your computer, when we all pay for the same game, why should you be entitled to see more of it than someone that actually has their priorities in life squared away ?

Kizee

10-12-2007, 08:56 PM

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>From your posts it seems like you are just a boxer that is angry they can't farm instances easy.</blockquote>Heh, well if I'm presuming about you guys, what's this?I play the game with my partner (and very occasionally, my best friend ~ who is mainly a soloer). If we couldn't play this game the way we want, we wouldn't bother. Duos are a perfectly legitimate group and partners playing EQ2 together are a vital part of the casual game.I never said I was casual though, even though sometimes, in comparison to others, I think I am very casual in my approach. I have 6 characters over 50, and three capped at 70/70/100. I am in a guild, with my partner. We're level 46. As you can see I play hard.My main contentions are:1. The game is not too easy for me. Your experiences may differ. How I play is just as legitimate as the way you do, but apparently you're not even willing to concede that. Nevertheless, this is not supposed to be a hard-core game, if that's what you want I'd suggest looking elsewhere 'cos I'm going to keep banging on: Casual at level 1, casual at level 70.2. Adding see-invis to SoF isn't an improvement to the zone. It makes no difference to the people asking for it and doesn't alter the difficulty level, which is the *reason* they're giving to have it altered. I'd ask that you consider your reasons for asking to have it and be honest. You don't like farmers? Fine, say so. But don't hand me rubbish about how it's "too easy for you and see invis will fix that". </blockquote>You are missing the point that the game is balanced around a full group of 6 people. If you got 6 people the game wouldn't be as difficult for you.As for this game being casual friendly.... you probably couldn't get any more casual friendly unless you played a console game.

Sapphirius

10-13-2007, 03:17 AM

<cite>BBCBandE wrote:</cite><blockquote>You see, some of us have jobs and families and you know, real life things that really matter. These things take priority over games. <snip> why should you be entitled to see more of it than someone that actually has their priorities in life squared away ?</blockquote>This makes me laugh. Truly it does. Sorry to disappoint you, but I enjoy a game that actually presents to me a challenge when my children drift off to sleep at night.EDIT: reworded for gentler phrasing

Sapphirius

10-13-2007, 03:59 AM

<cite>Kizee@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are missing the point that the game is balanced around a full group of 6 people. If you got 6 people the game wouldn't be as difficult for you.As for this game being casual friendly.... you probably couldn't get any more casual friendly unless you played a console game.</blockquote>Careful, Kizee. You might get accused of having no life too. <snickers> Actually, I think I'm putting that quote on my EQ2Flames sig. Anyone who knows me would think it hilarious.

Amalthea

10-13-2007, 10:36 AM

Ok guys, please keep the personal jabs out of it! If it's not respectful, constructive, and relevant to the discussion, you probably shouldn't post it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

melaine_dvarvensplitter

10-13-2007, 12:12 PM

<cite>Amalthea wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok guys, please keep the personal jabs out of it! If it's not respectful, constructive, and relevant to the discussion, you probably shouldn't post it. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>Awww but the personal attacks is what makes the post interesting. Back on topic... SoE... toss us a bone and let's have some mobs see invis or have the named call the zone to help him.

Ama

10-13-2007, 01:34 PM

<cite>melaine_dvarvensplitter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amalthea wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok guys, please keep the personal jabs out of it! If it's not respectful, constructive, and relevant to the discussion, you probably shouldn't post it. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />"></blockquote>Awww but the personal attacks is what makes the post interesting.Back on topic... SoE... toss us a bone and let's have some mobs see invis or have the named call the zone to help him. </blockquote>Sadly "Personal Attacks" have a broad range and some people can really be pains in the [Removed for Content] about it. I basically have to stay out of conversations that get heated because everything I say can be misconstrude as a personal attack. I can't wait for the Shard of Fear and would like it if some mobs were see invisi and atleast 1/2 to 3/4s of them weren't. This gives a bit of strategy and could be woven together where if the wrong mob sees you it runs at you kamikazi style detonating itself to 90% health. It would do 75% damage to the group and then would try to heal itself. Only way to counteract that would be to stealth past it killing the see invisi mobs or ranged attacking it.

Sapphirius

10-13-2007, 02:28 PM

As interesting as they can be, they truly don't have a place in any thread, and a line is crossed when the "RL Card" is played.As for the Shard of Fear and see-invis mobs, this discussion is now moot. They now have see-invis mobs present plus a larger aggro radius so there are fewer safe spots in the zone. I think now would be a good time to let the see-invis part of the debate simply drop and move on to better things.

MrWolfie

10-14-2007, 11:20 AM

Hopefully, some better things:My ideas for traps:1. All scouts (including scout pets) get a new skill: Detect Traps.This skill is always-on. Any scout will automatically see a trap when it is present (scout pets have to be possessed by their master in order to "see" the trap, but the trap would have to be flagged to become visible to the player in their normal form).2. Traps come in many different shapes and sizes, from trip-wires to pressure plates. They show up as a cold blue graphic in whatever shape applies to the trap type.3. Anyone using infra-vision (maybe sonic-vision too) will also be able to see a trap, in the same blue graphic.4. Scouts (and scout pets being possessed) can "flag" a trap, using their Disable Trap skill. An easy skill check will make the trap visible to all group members. There is a small chance that doing this may trigger the trap. There is a chance that the scout will also get a skill-up upon success. 5. Scouts (and scout pets being possessed) can try to disable the trap, using their Disable Trap skill. This skill check is more difficult and based on the trap type, which will be random and unknown to the player. There is a greater chance the trap will trigger. There is also a chance for a skill-up for the scout upon success. I would suggest that scout pets get disable trap at one half the skill of a proper scout of their level, thereby making it a much riskier proposition to have a summoner disable a trap than have a genuine scout do it.Disabling the trap removes it from that instance (or in the case of a contested area, removes it for a set period of time).6. In the absence of a scout (or scout-type pet) the trap can be avoided if no-one touches it (size, shape and placement will dictate how difficult this is). It could be walked around, jumped over, flown over (by fae), levitated over when SOE eventually implement levitaton <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />. Whatever, just so long as you don't TOUCH IT! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> Or it can be triggered on purpose. Any player, charmed mob or pet that comes into contact with the trap ~ or perhaps even destroying the trap using magic damage ~ can trigger the trap. However, the results of triggering the trap will be unknown until the trap is triggered and this time around there's no telling what could happen!!7. People may find that certain classes may have advantages over others when triggering traps, but that is wholly dependant on the trap type, which would be entirely random.8. Trap types could be explosive with a random area of effect; an alarum summoning nearby mobs; magically summoning mob(s); falling ceilings; random group teleport ~ or not so random <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> ~ or other magic effects/stuns/mezzes with random aoe sizes. The random aoe size means that a group could rarely be absolutely sure of being out of range, if sending just one party member to trigger the trap, and even then, it might not be an explosive-type trap! Damage from traps could be deadly once more, with possible reductions for AGI or Mitigation.I think this would spice things up nicely. Giving more opportunities to skill-up the 2nd worse skill to max: disable trap. While applying reasons to use otherwise useless skills/spells: infra-vision (and sonic vision) and possess minion.I'm sure it's all quite rough and ready, and with more input could perhaps integrate with other under-utilised skills.Feel free to twist it into whatever shape you like.

Sapphirius

10-14-2007, 11:51 AM

You know, I actually like those ideas for traps. Perhaps you could start a new thread to address it?

liveja

10-14-2007, 02:34 PM

I like Wolfie's trap ideas, too.Now, could we maybe put them in a thread of their own, rather than burying them in this utterly moot argument about whether or not mobs in SoF can or should see thru stealth/invis? & maybe, while we're at it, lock this particular thread, as it's not especially relevant any more?

Kizee

10-14-2007, 06:02 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I like Wolfie's trap ideas, too.Now, could we maybe put them in a thread of their own, rather than burying them in this utterly moot argument about whether or not mobs in SoF can or should see thru stealth/invis? & maybe, while we're at it, lock this particular thread, as it's not especially relevant any more?</blockquote>It's not really an idea....EQ1 had traps.As a rogue in EQ1 the traps were not challenging...they were annoying.

Magic

10-15-2007, 08:56 PM

As for the Shard of Fear zone being easy, none of my toons are high enough to hunt there yet. But being a soloist, I prefer zones where mobs can't detect me when invis or stealthed. So I'd say leave it that way.On another point already introduced into the thread, I agree with giving us three options (solo, group, or epic) and it should apply to every zone at the time of zoning into it. The loot should be scaled to the zone's chosen difficulty too.The one thing that I don't want to see is the levels of the mobs scaled to me. Whatever their numeric levels are now should remain the same but the additional tags such as heroic and the number of arrows should scale to the difficulty level chosen for that zone. For example, in the Commonlands is mob named Gustfeather. In the solo version it should be level 25 without arrows. In the group version it should be level 25^ or so. In the epic version it should be level 25^^^ epic x 4 or so.Note that everyone in the group version of the zone would be looking for a group. That would make grouping much easier, would it not? Maybe in addition SOE should disable the grouping functions while in the solo version of every zone so that everyone remains true to the solo option.I motion to add this feature to all zones!

Sapphirius

10-15-2007, 09:25 PM

<cite>Magical wrote:</cite><blockquote>Note that everyone in the group version of the zone would be looking for a group. That would make grouping much easier, would it not? Maybe in addition SOE should disable the grouping functions while in the solo version of every zone so that everyone remains true to the solo option.I motion to add this feature to all zones!</blockquote>Heavens no. People would stay in the solo zones all day where they wouldn't be allowed to form groups and then only go to the group zones when they managed to pull a group together. Making every single zone in EQ2 like this would make getting a group nearly impossible. Not to mention, this was done in another MMO, and the encounters sucked as far as quality was concerned. I motion this idea die a quick and speedy death.Most of the overland is solo as it is. <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=306080" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Here.</a> Here's a listing of some of the soloable instances in the game. For all that is sacred, SOE, please don't even think about making every single zone in the game scalable like this. The way the zones are now is perfect. Overland is soloable; dungeons groupable; instances a mix of solo, group, and raid.

Killerbee3000

10-16-2007, 06:04 AM

the trap idea isnt exactly new... most offline rpg's (nwm for example) have such traps.... but, hey why not? no need to reinvent the wheel<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> i approve the idea of traps.

Crib92

10-16-2007, 12:25 PM

A poster 3 or 4 pages ago hit on a great idea and one that I agree with. ALL mobs should have an opportunity to see invis/stealth. With Scout mobs having a greater opportunity to do so.This way, you have an opportunity as a Scout to get to where you need to go, but not guaranteed. (Like failure rate on FD)IMO, if you play a game with no risk then you will quickly become bored. I personally would love to see heroic content scale up considerably, because I'm tired of having to fight mobs 5 levels over me to be challenged. I remember going into POA at 64 cause everything else was too easy... (In treasured/Legendary) The original HOF was perfect, too sad what they did to that zone.

Bozidar

10-16-2007, 03:29 PM

Why not a disable trap solution similar to crafting? You get 2 or 4 progress bars.. progress and success chance.. you have skills you have to actively use to get past the trap.Just making it a skill check is boring <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Oh, i have to go grind a few instances to find traps and get my skill up.. vs.. "Wait! Hold up everyone, a trap! Let me get out my tool kit and disarm it.. " *click*click*click*click*click*.. ah crap.. everyone move back, pre heal me!! *boom*See.. now THAT sounds like a.. uhm.. blast.. to me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Sapphirius

10-17-2007, 05:53 AM

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>"Wait! Hold up everyone, a trap! Let me get out my tool kit and disarm it.. " *click*click*click*click*click*.. ah crap.. everyone move back, pre heal me!! *boom*See.. now THAT sounds like a.. uhm.. blast.. to me <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>[Removed for Content]!

Dirty Jack Rackham

10-18-2007, 02:28 PM

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hopefully, some better things:My ideas for traps:3. Anyone using infra-vision (maybe sonic-vision too) will also be able to see a trap, in the same blue graphic.</blockquote>Infra-vision is heat based. Most traps would be at ambient "room" temperature and there for the same temperatue as the surrounding rocks, dirt, grass, walls, ect.Sonic-vision is "supposedly" motion based. Unless the trap is moving then there should be zero possibility seeing it. Perhaps ultra-vision?

Magic

10-18-2007, 06:13 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>..</cite>. People would stay in the solo zones all day where they wouldn't be allowed to form groups and then only go to the group zones when they managed to pull a group together. Making every single zone in EQ2 like this would make getting a group nearly impossible...</blockquote>What you say doesn't make sense to me, but that's not to say that you're wrong.However, I'd settle for a separate server for soloists. We have servers for PvP and other variants already.

Magic

10-18-2007, 06:34 PM

<cite>Dirty Jack Rackham wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Infra-vision is heat based. Most traps would be at ambient "room" temperature and there for the same temperatue as the surrounding rocks, dirt, grass, walls, ect. Sonic-vision is "supposedly" motion based. Unless the trap is moving then there should be zero possibility seeing it. Perhaps ultra-vision?</blockquote>I'm not so sure about all of that. Ultravision has to do with light just above visible light in frequency. Unless the trap is giving off ultraviolet light, ultravision won't work. It may be possible for a magically-triggered trap to give off this energy.A trip wire trap would be visible to sonicvision when a breeze makes the wire vibrate. A proximity trap might use ultrasonic waves and might be detectable with sonicvision. If it uses magic then ultravision might do it.A pressure plate trap would be more difficult to detect but not impossible. Since the plate would be suspended apart from the surrounding ground material, temperature changes would occur at a different rate. For example, if a room suddenly were to get warmer or cooler, the pressure plate would reach the new temperature sooner than the surrounding material. Infravision would detect this.But having said all of this, I'd rather not have traps. Those of us who solo would get mighty ticked off about traps if we aren't the trap-sniffing class. It's bad enough to have our health almost at zero when we manage to run away from a group of mobs. It's quite another to get killed by a trap that we couldn't possibly detect along our route.

Sapphirius

10-19-2007, 07:30 PM

<cite>Magical wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>..</cite>. People would stay in the solo zones all day where they wouldn't be allowed to form groups and then only go to the group zones when they managed to pull a group together. Making every single zone in EQ2 like this would make getting a group nearly impossible...</blockquote>What you say doesn't make sense to me, but that's not to say that you're wrong.However, I'd settle for a separate server for soloists. We have servers for PvP and other variants already.</blockquote>Somehow, I'm not surprised that it doesn't make sense to you. Having a seperate server just for soloists is as bad an idea as making every single zone scalable to solo, group, and raid.