When will mastercrafted items stop being treated differently for transmuting?

[Devilsbane]

Should we at least be able to get a powder back from our mastercrafted items when they are transmuted? If I transmute a legendary or fabled I am guarantied a powder and an infusion. I know transmuting was added before you joined Domino. Would you please look into it once RoK is released. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> 

[Mighty Melvor]

<cite>Devilsbane wrote:</cite><blockquote>Should we at least be able to get a powder back from our mastercrafted items when they are transmuted? If I transmute a legendary or fabled I am guarantied a powder and an infusion. I know transmuting was added before you joined Domino. Would you please look into it once RoK is released. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> </blockquote><p>/LOL</p><p>Last I checked.....MC/treasured yields powder, fragment or both.Legendary yields infusion, powder or both.Fabled yields mana, infusion or both.</p><p>Change is not required</p>

[Calthine]

Gear type Mastercrafted is the same as Treasured.  From <a href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=972" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Transmuting FAQ</a>:<p ><u><b>What kind of results do I get from Transmuting?</b></u>Transmuting may yield four different results, all of which are used to make Adornments. There is a rare chance of getting both the rare and common results on a Transmute:</p> <ul><li>treasured item – fragment (common) or powder (rare)</li><li>mastercrafted item - fragment (common) or powder (rare)</li><li>Adept 3 – powder (common) or infusion (rare)</li><li>legendary item - powder (common) or infusion (rare)</li><li>fabled item – infusion (common) or vial of mana (rare)</li></ul>

[Jesdyr]

Not totally true ... Adept III transmute like legendary <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />Edit - Calthine is faster than I <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />  .. oh and furniture cannot be transmuted (unless it changed) .. actuall I think any MC item that is not attunable cannot be.

[Zard]

<p>Do MC <b>Potions</b> and <b>Poisons</b> transmute the same as Adept III's?</p>

[Coniaric]

<cite>Auric@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Do MC <b>Potions</b> and <b>Poisons</b> transmute the same as Adept III's?</p></blockquote> Can't be transmuted - along with food and drink. Because they are consumables, I think.

[BigChiefJJ]

<cite>Coniaric wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Auric@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Do MC <b>Potions</b> and <b>Poisons</b> transmute the same as Adept III's?</p></blockquote> Can't be transmuted - along with food and drink. Because they are consumables, I think.</blockquote><p>MC Potions and Poisons pre GU?? (the one that made all the poison/potion changes from 1 vial with 7 charges to each vial having its own charge but stacking to 20) can be transmuted however the poisons / potions that you can currently make cannot.   I don't recall if they transmute like treasured or like legendary.</p>

[TaleraRis]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gear type Mastercrafted is the same as Treasured.  From <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=972" target="_blank">The Transmuting FAQ</a>:<p><u><b>What kind of results do I get from Transmuting?</b></u>Transmuting may yield four different results, all of which are used to make Adornments. There is a rare chance of getting both the rare and common results on a Transmute:</p> <ul><li>treasured item – fragment (common) or powder (rare)</li><li>mastercrafted item - fragment (common) or powder (rare)</li><li>Adept 3 – powder (common) or infusion (rare)</li><li>legendary item - powder (common) or infusion (rare)</li><li>fabled item – infusion (common) or vial of mana (rare)</li></ul></blockquote>I think the argument is sound that it should be the same as Adept 3, to be honest. Transmuting an Adept 3 consumes a rare raw. A mastercrafted item also consumes a rare raw, but instead of being guaranteed a powder for your rare sacrifice, the majority of the time you receive a fragment. There's an imbalance there that materials that come from the same "tier" of materials are not producing the same results. Perhaps this is less important in lower tiers with a higher rare potential, but in the higher tiers where any rare is a lucky chance, one class of rare producing something of more value than another class of rare just doesn't make sense. That list is also missing Adept I, which is the same as what treasured and mastercrafted currently are, a fragment is the common transmute and extremely rarely do you get a powder. And Master spells which I believe work as fabled items do.

[ZeroRavesOn]

<cite>Gwyneth@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gear type Mastercrafted is the same as Treasured.  From <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=972" target="_blank">The Transmuting FAQ</a>:<p><u><b>What kind of results do I get from Transmuting?</b></u>Transmuting may yield four different results, all of which are used to make Adornments. There is a rare chance of getting both the rare and common results on a Transmute:</p> <ul><li>treasured item – fragment (common) or powder (rare)</li><li>mastercrafted item - fragment (common) or powder (rare)</li><li>Adept 3 – powder (common) or infusion (rare)</li><li>legendary item - powder (common) or infusion (rare)</li><li>fabled item – infusion (common) or vial of mana (rare)</li></ul></blockquote>I think the argument is sound that it should be the same as Adept 3, to be honest. Transmuting an Adept 3 consumes a rare raw. A mastercrafted item also consumes a rare raw, but instead of being guaranteed a powder for your rare sacrifice, the majority of the time you receive a fragment. There's an imbalance there that materials that come from the same "tier" of materials are not producing the same results. Perhaps this is less important in lower tiers with a higher rare potential, but in the higher tiers where any rare is a lucky chance, one class of rare producing something of more value than another class of rare just doesn't make sense. That list is also missing Adept I, which is the same as what treasured and mastercrafted currently are, a fragment is the common transmute and extremely rarely do you get a powder. And Master spells which I believe work as fabled items do. </blockquote>Adept Is are treasured, so they are considered up there.  Adept IIIs are consumed when they are used, whereas mastercrafted armor/weapons/jewelry are not, so they get the extra kick up for that reason, beside Mastercrafted haven't been the same quality as Legendary since before the crafting revamp.Beside, rare raw wood, pelts, and roots cost the same as attuneable treasured items, but spell rares are roughly the same cost as attuneable legendary gear on the broker.

[Devilsbane]

<cite>ZeroRavesOn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gwyneth@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gear type Mastercrafted is the same as Treasured.  From <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=972" target="_blank">The Transmuting FAQ</a>:<p><u><b>What kind of results do I get from Transmuting?</b></u>Transmuting may yield four different results, all of which are used to make Adornments. There is a rare chance of getting both the rare and common results on a Transmute:</p><ul><li>treasured item – fragment (common) or powder (rare)</li><li>mastercrafted item - fragment (common) or powder (rare)</li><li>Adept 3 – powder (common) or infusion (rare)</li><li>legendary item - powder (common) or infusion (rare)</li><li>fabled item – infusion (common) or vial of mana (rare)</li></ul></blockquote>I think the argument is sound that it should be the same as Adept 3, to be honest. Transmuting an Adept 3 consumes a rare raw. A mastercrafted item also consumes a rare raw, but instead of being guaranteed a powder for your rare sacrifice, the majority of the time you receive a fragment. There's an imbalance there that materials that come from the same "tier" of materials are not producing the same results. Perhaps this is less important in lower tiers with a higher rare potential, but in the higher tiers where any rare is a lucky chance, one class of rare producing something of more value than another class of rare just doesn't make sense. That list is also missing Adept I, which is the same as what treasured and mastercrafted currently are, a fragment is the common transmute and extremely rarely do you get a powder. And Master spells which I believe work as fabled items do. </blockquote>Adept Is are treasured, so they are considered up there.  Adept IIIs are consumed when they are used, whereas mastercrafted armor/weapons/jewelry are not, so they get the extra kick up for that reason, beside Mastercrafted haven't been the same quality as Legendary since before the crafting revamp.Beside, rare raw wood, pelts, and roots cost the same as attuneable treasured items, but spell rares are roughly the same cost as attuneable legendary gear on the broker.</blockquote><p>The current demand and prices for Adept IIIs can be traced directly back to the fact they transmute like legendaries. If the change was made that demand from transmuters would be spread evenly to other mastercrafted goods. Each profession would have a secondary market for their mastercrafted goods.</p><p>I would even ask that handcrafted items be allowed to be transmuted like treasured items. Since we are going to a pristine or bust rule set, every combine will take about the same amount time for my own average NPC drop. My per hour average drop from NPCs are greater then that of my harvested rares. That average includes chest drops of treasured, rares, legendaries, master spells, and fables. This is even true after the increase in the rare drop from nodes.</p>

[ZeroRavesOn]

<cite>Devilsbane wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ZeroRavesOn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gwyneth@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gear type Mastercrafted is the same as Treasured.  From <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=972" target="_blank">The Transmuting FAQ</a>:<p><u><b>What kind of results do I get from Transmuting?</b></u>Transmuting may yield four different results, all of which are used to make Adornments. There is a rare chance of getting both the rare and common results on a Transmute:</p><ul><li>treasured item – fragment (common) or powder (rare)</li><li>mastercrafted item - fragment (common) or powder (rare)</li><li>Adept 3 – powder (common) or infusion (rare)</li><li>legendary item - powder (common) or infusion (rare)</li><li>fabled item – infusion (common) or vial of mana (rare)</li></ul></blockquote>I think the argument is sound that it should be the same as Adept 3, to be honest. Transmuting an Adept 3 consumes a rare raw. A mastercrafted item also consumes a rare raw, but instead of being guaranteed a powder for your rare sacrifice, the majority of the time you receive a fragment. There's an imbalance there that materials that come from the same "tier" of materials are not producing the same results. Perhaps this is less important in lower tiers with a higher rare potential, but in the higher tiers where any rare is a lucky chance, one class of rare producing something of more value than another class of rare just doesn't make sense. That list is also missing Adept I, which is the same as what treasured and mastercrafted currently are, a fragment is the common transmute and extremely rarely do you get a powder. And Master spells which I believe work as fabled items do. </blockquote>Adept Is are treasured, so they are considered up there.  Adept IIIs are consumed when they are used, whereas mastercrafted armor/weapons/jewelry are not, so they get the extra kick up for that reason, beside Mastercrafted haven't been the same quality as Legendary since before the crafting revamp.Beside, rare raw wood, pelts, and roots cost the same as attuneable treasured items, but spell rares are roughly the same cost as attuneable legendary gear on the broker.</blockquote><p>The current demand and prices for Adept IIIs can be traced directly back to the fact they transmute like legendaries. If the change was made that demand from transmuters would be spread evenly to other mastercrafted goods. Each profession would have a secondary market for their mastercrafted goods.</p><p>I would even ask that handcrafted items be allowed to be transmuted like treasured items. Since we are going to a pristine or bust rule set, every combine will take about the same amount time for my own average NPC drop. My per hour average drop from NPCs are greater then that of my harvested rares. That average includes chest drops of treasured, rares, legendaries, master spells, and fables. This is even true after the increase in the rare drop from nodes.</p></blockquote>The current demand and prices for Adept IIIs can be traced to the fact that they **ARE** legendary quality and don't compete with anything dropped from the world.  This price disparity existed before transmuting was in the game, and will probably continue until gear philosophy is changed, again.Remember, the gear progression is roughly Vendor < Dropped Trash < Handcrafted < Treasured < Mastercrafted < Legendary < FabledFor spells, this is different in Apprentice II (Vendor) < Apprentice III (Failed Handcrafted) < Apprentice IV (Handcrafted) < Adept I (Treasured) < Adept III (Legendary) < Master I (Fabled)Crafted spells were never nerfed down, like the other gear was in LU24.  They are better than the other, comparable combines from other tradeskill classes and market prices reflect that.  I am not advocating that all in-game Adept IIIs get nerfed down to Adept II, with heroic difficulty Adept IIIs to be put in, but rather pointing out they are currently different quality levels.If they were the same quality, had the same kind of substitutes, had similar pricing before LU30 (and the introduction of transmuting) and different pricing after, then theres an argument that transmuting is driving the difference in pricing, but thats not what I see.  I see differences in pricing that existed based on differentiated demand (all classes use about 25 spell rares per tier, but only druids and brawlers use seven leathers per tier) and differentiated market conditions (again, there are no dropped Legendary spells).  In my view, its comparing apples and oranges.

[Devilsbane]

<cite>ZeroRavesOn wrote:</cite><blockquote>The current demand and prices for Adept IIIs can be traced to the fact that they **ARE** legendary quality and don't compete with anything dropped from the world.  This price disparity existed before transmuting was in the game, and will probably continue until gear philosophy is changed, again.Remember, the gear progression is roughly Vendor < Dropped Trash < Handcrafted < Treasured < Mastercrafted < Legendary < FabledFor spells, this is different in Apprentice II (Vendor) < Apprentice III (Failed Handcrafted) < Apprentice IV (Handcrafted) < Adept I (Treasured) < Adept III (Legendary) < Master I (Fabled)Crafted spells were never nerfed down, like the other gear was in LU24.  They are better than the other, comparable combines from other tradeskill classes and market prices reflect that.  I am not advocating that all in-game Adept IIIs get nerfed down to Adept II, with heroic difficulty Adept IIIs to be put in, but rather pointing out they are currently different quality levels.If they were the same quality, had the same kind of substitutes, had similar pricing before LU30 (and the introduction of transmuting) and different pricing after, then theres an argument that transmuting is driving the difference in pricing, but thats not what I see.  I see differences in pricing that existed based on differentiated demand (all classes use about 25 spell rares per tier, but only druids and brawlers use seven leathers per tier) and differentiated market conditions (again, there are no dropped Legendary spells).  In my view, its comparing apples and oranges.</blockquote><p>You forget that spells were changed in a previous GU. The Adept I version of the upgrade CA/Spell will almost always be better then the previous Master I version.(i) That change made adept IIIs nonessential for adventurers until higher tiers. Adept IIIs are only valuable because of the scarcity of Master I spells. Although, Master I spells are not truly rare anymore. Since GU30 went live I have sold 397 masters of which 344 were unique spells. My current broker inventory has a list of 49 masters with 48 unique spells on The Bazaar server.</p><p>(i) Take my own Fury spells Starburst and Starfire              Starburst                                        StarfireAdept I    665-812   fire damage       Adept I   944-1153   fire damageAdept III 775-946   fire damage Master I  885-1081 fire damage</p>

[TaleraRis]

Not *all* non-spell rares that produce mastercrafted items are as easy to get as other rares. Ore rares fetch a much higher price (at least on my server) and have always fetched a much higher price than any gem or soft metal rare. Yet the mastercrafted item made from an ore rare transmutes only as a treasured, while the much less valuable and easier to get gem or soft metal rare transmutes as a legendary.

[Milamber_le_mage]

Gear type Mastercrafted is the same as Treasured.  From <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=972" target="_blank">The Transmuting FAQ</a>:<p><u><b>What kind of results do I get from Transmuting?</b></u>Transmuting may yield four different results, all of which are used to make Adornments. There is a rare chance of getting both the rare and common results on a Transmute:</p><ul><li>treasured item - fragment (common) or powder (rare) </li><li>mastercrafted item - fragment (common) or powder (rare) </li><li>Adept 3 - powder (common) or infusion (rare) </li><li>legendary item - powder (common) or infusion (rare) </li><li>fabled item - infusion (common) or vial of mana (rare)</li></ul><p>are u sure about the ratio for tresured items ? I know it's strange but I am transmuting a lots of treasured and adept 1 and I really missed fragments.</p>

[ZeroRavesOn]

<cite>Devilsbane wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>You forget that spells were changed in a previous GU. The Adept I version of the upgrade CA/Spell will almost always be better then the previous Master I version.(i) That change made adept IIIs nonessential for adventurers until higher tiers. Adept IIIs are only valuable because of the scarcity of Master I spells. Although, Master I spells are not truly rare anymore. Since GU30 went live I have sold 397 masters of which 344 were unique spells. My current broker inventory has a list of 49 masters with 48 unique spells on The Bazaar server.</p><p>(i) Take my own Fury spells Starburst and Starfire              Starburst                                        StarfireAdept I    665-812   fire damage       Adept I   944-1153   fire damageAdept III 775-946   fire damage Master I  885-1081 fire damage</p></blockquote>The start of that was LU13, which was about a year before the crafting revamp.  There have been many tweaks toward it in the past two years, but it hasn't been achieved entirely because of how hard it is to make these things scale.  As for that example, is that looking at the same amount of bonus from INT?  Without knowing the scaling equations, there is no way we can know (Remember, since the EoF combat revamp, spells use the level of the spell for the INT or STR damage bonus, instead of your own level).  Plus, I seem to remember spell quality always being linked to the general level of mob you're fighting (masters for epic mobs, adept IIIs for heroic, etc)Even so, I feel that raw prices are generally linked to use, and don't come from transmuting.  Spell rares are more expensive because each class has about 20 spells in each tier, and hard metal is more expensive because there are 9 slots (armor and weapon/shields) for 14 classes, instead of the four that leather serves.  In t7, things change a bit because theres a lot of legendary armor availability.  Prices were basically like this before EoF, with some overall reduction since the drop rates of rares was increased.I don't look at mastercrafted gear as a prime source of things to melt, and I don't really think they were meant to be.  Right now, you're able to get use out of mastercrafted armor and weapons, then once you grow out of them you can melt and get some residual benefit.  You can't do that with mastercrafted spells; transmuting a mastercrafted spell should give a little extra - this is one thing that looks to actually be well and as intended, simultaneously. 

[Devilsbane]

<cite>ZeroRavesOn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Devilsbane wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>You forget that spells were changed in a previous GU. The Adept I version of the upgrade CA/Spell will almost always be better then the previous Master I version.(i) That change made adept IIIs nonessential for adventurers until higher tiers. Adept IIIs are only valuable because of the scarcity of Master I spells. Although, Master I spells are not truly rare anymore. Since GU30 went live I have sold 397 masters of which 344 were unique spells. My current broker inventory has a list of 49 masters with 48 unique spells on The Bazaar server.</p><p>(i) Take my own Fury spells Starburst and Starfire              Starburst                                        StarfireAdept I    665-812   fire damage       Adept I   944-1153   fire damageAdept III 775-946   fire damage Master I  885-1081 fire damage</p></blockquote>The start of that was LU13, which was about a year before the crafting revamp.  There have been many tweaks toward it in the past two years, but it hasn't been achieved entirely because of how hard it is to make these things scale.  As for that example, is that looking at the same amount of bonus from INT?  Without knowing the scaling equations, there is no way we can know (Remember, since the EoF combat revamp, spells use the level of the spell for the INT or STR damage bonus, instead of your own level).  Plus, I seem to remember spell quality always being linked to the general level of mob you're fighting (masters for epic mobs, adept IIIs for heroic, etc)Even so, I feel that raw prices are generally linked to use, and don't come from transmuting.  Spell rares are more expensive because each class has about 20 spells in each tier, and hard metal is more expensive because there are 9 slots (armor and weapon/shields) for 14 classes, instead of the four that leather serves.  In t7, things change a bit because theres a lot of legendary armor availability.  Prices were basically like this before EoF, with some overall reduction since the drop rates of rares was increased.I don't look at mastercrafted gear as a prime source of things to melt, and I don't really think they were meant to be.  Right now, you're able to get use out of mastercrafted armor and weapons, then once you grow out of them you can melt and get some residual benefit.  You can't do that with mastercrafted spells; transmuting a mastercrafted spell should give a little extra - this is one thing that looks to actually be well and as intended, simultaneously. </blockquote><p>Given that I have Int bonuses from equipment, spells, and achievements, it is easy to gage the scale of my spells. Since you are stuck on the bonus here is a range of spell damage with my basic 20 Int. I found completing this list shows that upgrading to Master I from Adept I bypassing Adept III is the best option. The cheapest option of course it to choose Master II upgrade, that is for another thread. Although, I have discussed on this forum before the need for a crafted Master III spell using nothing but rare materials and at least a stack of fuel.</p><p>               Starburst                                                                                             Adept I    449-548   fire damage                                                                                                        (every point of Int adds .86-1.06)      Adept III 523-639   fire damage (increase of 16% from adept I)                                                      (every point of Int adds 1.01-1.23) Master I  598-730 fire damage   (increase of 33% from adept I) (increase of 14% from adept III) (every point of Int adds 1.15-1.41)</p><p>               Starfire  Adept I   690-843   fire damage (increase of 15% from Starburst Master I)                                     (every point of Int adds 1.02-1.25)</p><p>I have never know raw prices to reflect the current market value of the goods made from them. The raws are usually 20-50% more then the current value of the goods produced. Rare materials seem to follow that rule even more then common raws.</p><p>Everything treasured and above was suppose to be useful beyond it's initial usefulness before EoF. When transmuting was new many aspiring transmuters looked directly to spell rares for components (infusions and powders). That lead to a tighten of the supply of rares because of greater completion for the nodes. The common supply was boosted by the fact they made a preemptive change of multiple harvests. That was good since common soft metal was in demand by tinkers. Seems that was the best 'well and intended' change.</p>