T8 Monks

[mattmandude]

Anyone know about the abilities/composition of monks once the expansion comes out? I've been wondering whether we'll get an upgrade version of tsunami/outward calm...

[Fleaba]

Outward calm, possible.Tsunami, doubt it.Instill Fear, possible.Self Heal (errr name), possible.Everything else I would assume is still on the every 14th lvl rotation...

[Weizen Heimer]

Aren't they changing absolutely everything other than Ancient TeachingsBloodlines to every 10 levels?

[Shankonia]

<p>Only thing i've heard is that come T8....drumroll....the Monk class is going to be changed entirely.</p><p>Apparently we are going to have to choose if we want to be a tank or a Dps.</p><p>I know the lazy folks who don't think Monks are tanks will like this.  All of you other Monks out there who have a case of "Main Tank" syndrome will probably like this as well so you can finally live your fantasy of being a raid MT.</p><p>Personally, I dislike this idea as the reason I love being a Monk is because, especially in the games current state, we truely are a hybrid Tank/Dps class.  Not the best MT, not the best DPS, but we can get the job done on both ends very effectively.</p><p>In my mind, if a change like this happens, we'll just end up remaining subpar tanks who can't dps or remain subpar dps who can't tank.</p><p>Granted, I have yet to see any dev posts mentioning this, nor am I in RoK Beta therefore cannot confirm this, it's just something I've heard.  </p>

[MadBarman]

Don't forget there is alos the spell/skill consolidation to happen. I'm not sure how much that applies to fighters as we generally have 2 taunts and a bunch of damage skills.What I have read is that almost all out skills will get an upgrade in T8. Obviously theres some that probably wont get any upgrade. Heal for example hasn't upgraded since levl 48 because it would become too powerful, group feign death is the same.I was thinking maybe some of these would get upgraded by adding an extra effect in. Group feign death could be given an AoE immunity effect. Theres nothing worse that feigning your whole group only to be wiped out anyway by the next AoE.Heal could get a intercept/stoneskin effect if cast on someone else. Healer has agro and almost dead, heal them for 40-50% health and give them a stoneskin effect to give you an extra second to grab agro back.I'm not sure if tsunami can be upgraded at all. Master 1 is a 12 second duration which seems to be the most they want to give any class. Instill doubt I don't care about, I've used it a couple of times but it's not worth it. The pathing on a feared mob is seriously [Removed for Content]. Normal pathing is ok, but as soon as I fear them I get mobs disappearing into the floors and walls.

[Dige]

<cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Only thing i've heard is that come T8....drumroll....the Monk class is going to be changed entirely.</p><p>Apparently we are going to have to choose if we want to be a tank or a Dps.</p><p>I know the lazy folks who don't think Monks are tanks will like this.  All of you other Monks out there who have a case of "Main Tank" syndrome will probably like this as well so you can finally live your fantasy of being a raid MT.</p><p>Personally, I dislike this idea as the reason I love being a Monk is because, especially in the games current state, we truely are a hybrid Tank/Dps class.  Not the best MT, not the best DPS, but we can get the job done on both ends very effectively.</p><p>In my mind, if a change like this happens, we'll just end up remaining subpar tanks who can't dps or remain subpar dps who can't tank.</p><p>Granted, I have yet to see any dev posts mentioning this, nor am I in RoK Beta therefore cannot confirm this, it's just something I've heard.  </p></blockquote><p>Dude no way...</p><p>Monks were all about DPS before DoF class revamp. Giving the ability to do more dps is very needed. Right now the brawlers are a joke compared to what they were and should be. If they give boosts to dps, we will probably be up there with assassins where we should be. If that takes away the ability to tank than fine, if you wanna tank spec for it etc. Having the choice to specialize in an area instead of being halfass in both is a nice move on the part of SOE. I do not know why you dont see that.</p><p> i know plenty of Monks who hate the role they have to play. Monks were never a form of main tanking in the EQ world. We were for DPS and some offtanking and this is when we were not FD pulling. The idea of tanking came about during the DoF revamp and completely changed the brawler classes and the other fighter classes. You liek being a hybrid? Play one then. Monks were never intended to be a hybrid. They were not one in eq1 and they were not one in eq2 until DoF and that wasnt really a hybrid due to the fact that they are half [Removed for Content] compared to the class roles they decide to emulate. </p><p>Personally i think it will raise the morale of the monk community a lot being able to specialize and be good at something whether it be dps or tanking.  Being halfass should not be our option. Lazy? Not hardly. I want monks back.</p>

[Ramius613]

<p>I remember reading the notes from the panel at Fan Faire, Mechanics I believe (The one that ticked off the brawler community that said we are powerful tanks in group & solo conditions).  Anyway, the topic of spell upgrade was also in the notes of that panel, and they said that spells that had a fixed number would get an upgrade.  So this would only apply to our outward calm since that is something like a 4k ward.  Tsunami might, I can't look at the spell, currently at work <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  Group FD, would not since it is a % based chance. The same goes for our heal, as it is also a %.</p>

[x0rtrun]

Group FD and heal will likely see an upgrade. It's a percentage chance of success or failure, or a percentage of health, not a percentage that scales with level, which is what they were talking about in that panel.

[ArcticBlue182]

<cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Only thing i've heard is that come T8....drumroll....the Monk class is going to be changed entirely.</p><p>Apparently we are going to have to choose if we want to be a tank or a Dps.</p><p>I know the lazy folks who don't think Monks are tanks will like this.  All of you other Monks out there who have a case of "Main Tank" syndrome will probably like this as well so you can finally live your fantasy of being a raid MT.</p><p>Personally, I dislike this idea as the reason I love being a Monk is because, especially in the games current state, we truely are a hybrid Tank/Dps class.  Not the best MT, not the best DPS, but we can get the job done on both ends very effectively.</p><p>In my mind, if a change like this happens, we'll just end up remaining subpar tanks who can't dps or remain subpar dps who can't tank.</p><p>Granted, I have yet to see any dev posts mentioning this, nor am I in RoK Beta therefore cannot confirm this, it's just something I've heard.  </p></blockquote>heard where ? personally i say this is a load of crap and will not be happening in RoK, there are no new AA's coming in RoK no news of revamped or changed AA trees that we currently have so how or what exactly are we supposed to select from ?also if we get to have this "selection" then all the other classes will want it also, guards, SK, zerkers wanting to be pure DPS machines, scouts wanting to be uber tanks what a mess that would be, massive unbalance accross the board! i mean they struggle with balancing issuse now.monks arnt broke they just need a little loving in 1 or 2 areas, but i doubt we will get that any time soon as the dev's already seem to think we are a very powerful class (thread in bruiser forums) for solo and group play and are under the impression that anything else will make us over powered for this type if content, cos after all no other class who is fabled/mastered 100AA or close to it is massively over powered.. are they <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[mattmandude]

I think an upgraded Instill Doubt is needed, since it fails so much on higher level mobs, and it rarely hits in level 70 pvp =/

[Fleaba]

<cite>MadBarman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Instill doubt I don't care about, I've used it a couple of times but it's not worth it. The pathing on a feared mob is seriously [Removed for Content]. Normal pathing is ok, but as soon as I fear them I get mobs disappearing into the floors and walls.</blockquote>A higher lvl Instill doubt if you look at it from a pvp'rs perspective could be a very welcome upgrade

[Almeric_CoS]

<cite>Weizen Heimer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aren't they changing absolutely everything other than Ancient TeachingsBloodlines to every 10 levels?</blockquote>The official statement was more along the lines of "class-defining" abilities (not an exact quote).  That opens up a lot of argument as to what falls under that umbrella, but basically healers can count on getting heals every tier.  Pet classes will get new pets every tier.  Fighters will get new stances every tier, I'm sure.  After that, whether we get a whole bevy of new attacks and such is completely up in the air until beta NDA is down.

[Amz]

<cite>Digety@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Only thing i've heard is that come T8....drumroll....the Monk class is going to be changed entirely.</p><p>Apparently we are going to have to choose if we want to be a tank or a Dps.</p><p>I know the lazy folks who don't think Monks are tanks will like this.  All of you other Monks out there who have a case of "Main Tank" syndrome will probably like this as well so you can finally live your fantasy of being a raid MT.</p><p>Personally, I dislike this idea as the reason I love being a Monk is because, especially in the games current state, we truely are a hybrid Tank/Dps class.  Not the best MT, not the best DPS, but we can get the job done on both ends very effectively.</p><p>In my mind, if a change like this happens, we'll just end up remaining subpar tanks who can't dps or remain subpar dps who can't tank.</p><p>Granted, I have yet to see any dev posts mentioning this, nor am I in RoK Beta therefore cannot confirm this, it's just something I've heard.  </p></blockquote><p>Dude no way...</p><p>Monks were all about DPS before DoF class revamp. Giving the ability to do more dps is very needed. Right now the brawlers are a joke compared to what they were and should be. If they give boosts to dps, we will probably be up there with assassins where we should be. If that takes away the ability to tank than fine, if you wanna tank spec for it etc. Having the choice to specialize in an area instead of being halfass in both is a nice move on the part of SOE. I do not know why you dont see that.</p><p> i know plenty of Monks who hate the role they have to play. Monks were never a form of main tanking in the EQ world. We were for DPS and some offtanking and this is when we were not FD pulling. The idea of tanking came about during the DoF revamp and completely changed the brawler classes and the other fighter classes. You liek being a hybrid? Play one then. Monks were never intended to be a hybrid. They were not one in eq1 and they were not one in eq2 until DoF and that wasnt really a hybrid due to the fact that they are half [I cannot control my vocabulary] compared to the class roles they decide to emulate. </p><p>Personally i think it will raise the morale of the monk community a lot being able to specialize and be good at something whether it be dps or tanking.  Being halfass should not be our option. Lazy? Not hardly. I want monks back.</p></blockquote>If you think we should be doing assassin dps, you are playing the wrong class. I don't know which EQ2 you've been playing, but monks DID start EQ2 as a tank class, not a dps or hybrid class. EQ2 is NOT EQ1, and comparing it to it is just stupid. The job Monks in EQ1 did does not exist in EQ2. Brawlers in EQ2 should be the highest dps TANK class, but behind scouts in dps (except for bards, probably). They should tank a little worse than the plate tanks, but they still should be able to tank when needed. That's the position they were designed to be in when the game came out, but the revamps and changes have skewed everything and apparently caused everyone to decide for themselves what monks should be.If we're given the choice to specialize to do either assassin dps or plate tankability, why the hell would anyone NOT play a monk? We have more utility and survivability than an assassin even that spec lowered our tanking ability, we have stealth AND feign death without spending a single AA. We should never be able to do the dps of a similarly geared/spec'd dps class, end of story. We SHOULD be able to tank comparably to a similarly geared/spec'd tank class.

[Couching]

<cite>Amzin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Digety@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Only thing i've heard is that come T8....drumroll....the Monk class is going to be changed entirely.</p><p>Apparently we are going to have to choose if we want to be a tank or a Dps.</p><p>I know the lazy folks who don't think Monks are tanks will like this.  All of you other Monks out there who have a case of "Main Tank" syndrome will probably like this as well so you can finally live your fantasy of being a raid MT.</p><p>Personally, I dislike this idea as the reason I love being a Monk is because, especially in the games current state, we truely are a hybrid Tank/Dps class.  Not the best MT, not the best DPS, but we can get the job done on both ends very effectively.</p><p>In my mind, if a change like this happens, we'll just end up remaining subpar tanks who can't dps or remain subpar dps who can't tank.</p><p>Granted, I have yet to see any dev posts mentioning this, nor am I in RoK Beta therefore cannot confirm this, it's just something I've heard.  </p></blockquote><p>Dude no way...</p><p>Monks were all about DPS before DoF class revamp. Giving the ability to do more dps is very needed. Right now the brawlers are a joke compared to what they were and should be. If they give boosts to dps, we will probably be up there with assassins where we should be. If that takes away the ability to tank than fine, if you wanna tank spec for it etc. Having the choice to specialize in an area instead of being halfass in both is a nice move on the part of SOE. I do not know why you dont see that.</p><p> i know plenty of Monks who hate the role they have to play. Monks were never a form of main tanking in the EQ world. We were for DPS and some offtanking and this is when we were not FD pulling. The idea of tanking came about during the DoF revamp and completely changed the brawler classes and the other fighter classes. You liek being a hybrid? Play one then. Monks were never intended to be a hybrid. They were not one in eq1 and they were not one in eq2 until DoF and that wasnt really a hybrid due to the fact that they are half [I cannot control my vocabulary] compared to the class roles they decide to emulate. </p><p>Personally i think it will raise the morale of the monk community a lot being able to specialize and be good at something whether it be dps or tanking.  Being halfass should not be our option. Lazy? Not hardly. I want monks back.</p></blockquote>If you think we should be doing assassin dps, you are playing the wrong class. I don't know which EQ2 you've been playing, but monks DID start EQ2 as a tank class, not a dps or hybrid class. EQ2 is NOT EQ1, and comparing it to it is just stupid. The job Monks in EQ1 did does not exist in EQ2. Brawlers in EQ2 should be the highest dps TANK class, but behind scouts in dps (except for bards, probably). They should tank a little worse than the plate tanks, but they still should be able to tank when needed. That's the position they were designed to be in when the game came out, but the revamps and changes have skewed everything and apparently caused everyone to decide for themselves what monks should be.If we're given the choice to specialize to do either assassin dps or plate tankability, why the hell would anyone NOT play a monk? We have more utility and survivability than an assassin even that spec lowered our tanking ability, we have stealth AND feign death without spending a single AA. We should never be able to do the dps of a similarly geared/spec'd dps class, end of story. We SHOULD be able to tank comparably to a similarly geared/spec'd tank class. </blockquote>Then you are missing plate tanks have their own tree to enhance them to be even superior in tanking or in dps. The same thing happens on rogue tree. They can have either uber dps or uber tanking. The only weak sauce is brawler tree comparing to plate tanks and rogue.We have nothing no matter in dps or tanking in our brawler tree comparing to others. As plate tank, they have more uncontested avoidance from shield than brawler, they can even get more from war tree or crusader tree. Not to say, they get also enhanced hate and mitigation. What brawlers get? The  more idiotic contested avoidance and tiny hp!I don't even bother to list how good they can get for their dps route.I would say, if brawler tree can be revamped in RoK so that we can spec either tanking or dpsing as other classes, it will balance brawler and other fighters and rogues in this game.

[Amz]

Our AA's are definitely the worst in the game. The AA disparity is one of the biggest problems with brawlers right now. I'm not saying brawlers are good tanks compared to plate classes right now, I'm saying they SHOULD be. Our AA need to be fixed, probably should be completely redone; and our avoidance needs to be tweaked to have more uncontested built in. There's no problem with giving us the ability to specialize as much as other tanks, but anything more than that would be overdoing it.

[Hissori]

I agree with one of the above posts. Monks Shouldn't be anywhere near assassins, but.....they should be the TOP "tank" dps class. Tired of zerkers and even guardians on some raids doing better dps then brawlers. Wearing all that heavy plate? Just my 2c. tier 1 Scouts should still out dps us though. We should be in there with 2nd tier scouts and dps. Which we are right now, however zerkers can just do crazy dps in all the heavy armor.

[Amphibia]

<cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Only thing i've heard is that come T8....drumroll....the Monk class is going to be changed entirely.</p><p>Apparently we are going to have to choose if we want to be a tank or a Dps.</p><p><b>I know the lazy folks who don't think Monks are tanks will like this. </b> All of you other Monks out there who have a case of "Main Tank" syndrome will probably like this as well so you can finally live your fantasy of being a raid MT.</p></blockquote>That's me! Yeah, I admit it... I wanna be either or. And I'll go with DPS if I can choose, because I really like the idea of playing an offensive fighter type, not a defensive one. If I had wanted defensive, I would have gone with a guardian to begin with. This sounds great! If it's true.... And I think we will be far less "sub par" on both tanking and DPS if we have to choose one over the other. There is no longer any reason for them to [Removed for Content] us then.

[Amphibia]

<cite>Hissori wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with one of the above posts. Monks Shouldn't be anywhere near assassins, but.....they should be the TOP "tank" dps class. Tired of zerkers and even guardians on some raids doing better dps then brawlers. Wearing all that heavy plate? Just my 2c. tier 1 Scouts should still out dps us though. We should be in there with 2nd tier scouts and dps. Which we are right now, however zerkers can just do crazy dps in all the heavy armor.</blockquote>Yes, we should probably not do quite as much DPS as an assassin or ranger, but I see no reason why a DPS spec'ed monk should be outparsed by a rouge? They aren't pure DPS classes like predators, they are actually very versatile.

[mattmandude]

I would see no problem with monks parsing as good as rogues, if there was some kind of large trade-off. Like if we were able to chose between some solo versatility/tanking and some DPS.

[Shankonia]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hissori wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with one of the above posts. Monks Shouldn't be anywhere near assassins, but.....they should be the TOP "tank" dps class. Tired of zerkers and even guardians on some raids doing better dps then brawlers. Wearing all that heavy plate? Just my 2c. tier 1 Scouts should still out dps us though. We should be in there with 2nd tier scouts and dps. Which we are right now, however zerkers can just do crazy dps in all the heavy armor.</blockquote>Yes, we should probably not do quite as much DPS as an assassin or ranger, but I see no reason why a DPS spec'ed monk should be outparsed by a rouge? They aren't pure DPS classes like predators, they are actually very versatile. </blockquote><p>If you want to be lazy go roll a bard.  Troub's are good for that.  Dirge you'll have to rez, but really that's only clicking 1 or 2 buttons and it dosn't get resisted so requires a little more effort.  Your guildies will love you for it as well.</p>

[Shankonia]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Then you are missing plate tanks have their own tree to enhance them to be even superior in tanking or in dps. The same thing happens on rogue tree. They can have either uber dps or uber tanking. The only weak sauce is brawler tree comparing to plate tanks and rogue.We have nothing no matter in dps or tanking in our brawler tree comparing to others. As plate tank, they have more uncontested avoidance from shield than brawler, they can even get more from war tree or crusader tree. Not to say, they get also enhanced hate and mitigation. What brawlers get? The  more idiotic contested avoidance and tiny hp!I don't even bother to list how good they can get for their dps route.I would say, if brawler tree can be revamped in RoK so that we can spec either tanking or dpsing as other classes, it will balance brawler and other fighters and rogues in this game.</p></blockquote><p>I thought we moved past this Couching.  Not really sure why you're still bashing plate tanks AA lines.  </p><p>Monks have the best raid wide buff in the game.  Our DPS and burst damage is better than it was, and though I don't raid with a Zerker I know that if i'm in an equal group as any other tank i'm going to out parse them.  My healers have also managed to keep me alive on every single thing i've tanked in the game.</p><p>You're still talking about AA equality and uncontested avoidance while some of us are the highest parsing tanks who fill our roles pretty well picking up stray mobs and OTing when needed.</p><p>I'm happy and satisfied with the class right now for the first time in YEARS.  I can put up good dps while i'm not tanking which allows me to grab aggro on any single target somewhat quickly and live to tell about it until the MT or another plate can get back on it.  Sometimes I even just tank it myself - because I can.</p><p>Our raiding weakness is picking up aggro on multi-mob encounters.  It's a weakness.  We have one.  I'm glad we have one.</p><p>I still can't see why any Monk would want to choose thier path - pure DPS/pure tank.  If you want to be an MT, roll a Guard.  If you want to be a purse melee DPS, Assassins are good for that.</p><p>I've always just wanted to be the highest fighter DPS who can tank when needed.  That's what I am.  If you want to be the best fighter tank who can DPS when needed, Guards are good for that.</p><p>I really don't see why there should be a change to limit our tanking abilities to give us even more DPS nor limit our DPS abilities to give us better tanking skills.  They do this, I only see it making us overpowered or way more useless than many think we already are.</p> 

[Amphibia]

<cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hissori wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with one of the above posts. Monks Shouldn't be anywhere near assassins, but.....they should be the TOP "tank" dps class. Tired of zerkers and even guardians on some raids doing better dps then brawlers. Wearing all that heavy plate? Just my 2c. tier 1 Scouts should still out dps us though. We should be in there with 2nd tier scouts and dps. Which we are right now, however zerkers can just do crazy dps in all the heavy armor.</blockquote>Yes, we should probably not do quite as much DPS as an assassin or ranger, but I see no reason why a DPS spec'ed monk should be outparsed by a rouge? They aren't pure DPS classes like predators, they are actually very versatile. </blockquote><p>If you want to be lazy go roll a bard.  Troub's are good for that.  Dirge you'll have to rez, but really that's only clicking 1 or 2 buttons and it dosn't get resisted so requires a little more effort.  Your guildies will love you for it as well.</p></blockquote>To be honest, it has really nothing to do with being lazy. I just don't want to be half a**ed at everything. Who honestly wants that? Right now, monk is hybrid class. The problem with that is that everything you do can be done better by someone else, and nobody wants or needs Mr. Jack-of-all-trades in this game. They all want the specialist. I doubt that is something that is going to change with RoK, so if the devs actually revamp our AA lines in a way that will allow us to choose either tanking or DPS (to put it simple) - it could be that long overdue fix we have been waiting for. Btw: The bard thing is actually spot on. Most raidleaders would love at least 2 chanters (or 3) and 4 bards in their raid force. With that new upgraded version of swiftness, 1 monk is usually welcome now. But more than 1 is still concidered a waste of spot.

[Couching]

<cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Then you are missing plate tanks have their own tree to enhance them to be even superior in tanking or in dps. The same thing happens on rogue tree. They can have either uber dps or uber tanking. The only weak sauce is brawler tree comparing to plate tanks and rogue.We have nothing no matter in dps or tanking in our brawler tree comparing to others. As plate tank, they have more uncontested avoidance from shield than brawler, they can even get more from war tree or crusader tree. Not to say, they get also enhanced hate and mitigation. What brawlers get? The  more idiotic contested avoidance and tiny hp!I don't even bother to list how good they can get for their dps route.I would say, if brawler tree can be revamped in RoK so that we can spec either tanking or dpsing as other classes, it will balance brawler and other fighters and rogues in this game.</p></blockquote><p>I thought we moved past this Couching.  Not really sure why you're still bashing plate tanks AA lines. </p><span style="color: #009999;">Why and when? Brawler aa is the worst between fighter and scout.</span><p><span style="color: #009999;">Plate tank and rogue can spec either dpsing or tanking but we can't, why? Bcz we can out parse rogue and out tank plate tanks without aa already?</span><span style="color: #0033cc;"></span> </p><p>Monks have the best raid wide buff in the game.  Our DPS and burst damage is better than it was, and though I don't raid with a Zerker I know that if i'm in an equal group as any other tank i'm going to out parse them.  My healers have also managed to keep me alive on every single thing i've tanked in the game.</p><p>You're still talking about AA equality and uncontested avoidance while some of us are the highest parsing tanks who fill our roles pretty well picking up stray mobs and OTing when needed.</p><span style="color: #000099;"><span style="color: #009999;">If you get better burst dps after lu38, it shows that you don't know how to play monk before. In fact, we did less burst dps in a short fight after lu38 if you knew how to play monk. In a longer fight, it's about even.For off tanking, your reply is really silly.  I don't know why we are fine since we have zero uncontested avoidance in offensive stance comparing to plate tank with 25%~35% uncontested avoidance in any stance and 3%-6% higher in mitigation. You can off tank isn't because you are good, it's because your healers are good. In fact, any plate tanks can tank better than you do as well as in dpsing if they are dps spec. Even they are dps spec, they still tank better than us since they have better mitigation and better uncontested avoidance.</span><span style="color: #009999;">All fighters, except brawler, can hit 2k+ ZW dps while tanking or dpsing in offensive stance. The only exception is brawler. If we have to get uncontested avoidance, we have to be in defensive stance. Or are you telling me that you can hit 2k+ ZW in defensive stance? Cool, show me the proof.</span></span><p>I'm happy and satisfied with the class right now for the first time in YEARS.  I can put up good dps while i'm not tanking which allows me to grab aggro on any single target somewhat quickly and live to tell about it until the MT or another plate can get back on it.  Sometimes I even just tank it myself - because I can.</p><p>Our raiding weakness is picking up aggro on multi-mob encounters.  It's a weakness.  We have one.  I'm glad we have one.</p><p>I still can't see why any Monk would want to choose thier path - pure DPS/pure tank.  If you want to be an MT, roll a Guard.  If you want to be a purse melee DPS, Assassins are good for that.</p><span style="color: #009999;">If your logic is correct, why warrior and crusader trees have different path for tanking and dpsing? Also, why rogue tree has different path for tanking and dpsing? Ok, maybe you should petition to nerf war, crusader and rogue trees since they shouldn't have both spec in their trees.</span><p>I've always just wanted to be the highest fighter DPS who can tank when needed.  That's what I am.  If you want to be the best fighter tank who can DPS when needed, Guards are good for that.</p><p><span style="color: #009999;">Haha, which fighter can't tank when needed? Actually, which rogue can't tank when needed? Moreover, monk is not the highest fighter DPS since bruiser, zerker and SK are higher than us. In some fights, pal will out damage most fighters if pal has right aa setup.</span><span style="color: #009999;">As long as we have that stupid 140+ self haste, we will never be the highest fighter dps in raid since we can't get benefit from group haste.</span></p><p>I really don't see why there should be a change to limit our tanking abilities to give us even more DPS nor limit our DPS abilities to give us better tanking skills.  They do this, I only see it making us overpowered or way more useless than many think we already are.</p><p><span style="color: #003399;"><span style="color: #009999;">You are one monk of whole monk community. A lot of replies in this thread have supported the idea that monk can spec in either dpsing or tanking. </span></span></p><span style="color: #003399;"> </span></blockquote>

[Fleaba]

Well here's my latest outlook on monks.....I recently rolled a Brigand because a friend does awesome with one. Wanted to try it out.... If I wanted to pick a class that has good dps, the ability to tank well etc. I'd defiantly go with a Brigand with the way things stand. I honestly feel like I wasted 2.5 years of time with a monk after playing this brig. Rogues do almost everything a monk does, but does it better and actually does a LOT for the raid with debuffs etc. IMHO they should seriously differentiate the monk into 2 serious paths. Give us a choice via aa lines or something of being a leet sauce tank that can stand up right next to a Zerker/Pally in tanking abilities, or the choice of spec'ing pure dps and we should by all means be doing more dps then a tier 2 class with that spec. Something along the line of Tier 1.5 dps, heck with leather vs. chain...possibly Tier 1 dps since we wear leather and  bring no really decent debuffs or anything else to a raid other then a heal, 12 seconds of ubberness, FD, one rather short term debuff and FINALLY a raid wide buff that actually is useful... (however our tanking ability should be nill with that spec)

[Kota]

this sounds good, but how are they gonna make monks good at tanking ?  they haven't been able to this whole time.  also would love to know the source of this information. 

[Nokrahs]

Monk should of course perform equal along with the other Fighter Classesif it comes down to tanking.Reason is the Fighter Archtype Dot in the Raid Window and the opportunity forRaid Leaders to actually form Tank/DPS/Heal Groups better.I used to actually tank every Mob in KoS/EoF Raid Zones and soon as my Tricksare done (Tsunami/OutwardCalm/Mountain Skin/Stonestance) I'm in a badPosition and require a lot more love from the Healers than any other Fighter.however on the bright Side I walk around with the biggest Health Pool in the game and do some semi useful things such as FD if [Removed for Content] hits the fan to ressurecta Healer at times.My Choice of Gear is not exactly balanced and I tend to refuse wearing severalgood EoF fabled Items over my Legendary Claymore Rewards which makes nosense at all.same goes for DPS gear which is mostly crafted or legendary to reach 70 unbuffeddps (till Kunark and the loss of my City Raid GI with +dps +crushing).anyway, I would like to see more tanking improvements over more DPS since I neverpicked a DD Class to go with and the Monk is a Fighter Type.Monk ain't bad at tanking and ain't bad as a DD but the hybrid excuse doesn't workanymore since other "pure" DD or Tank Classes are actually more hybrid trough the AA linesthan Monks actually.wonder if any changes that don't totally suck going to be introduced with Kunark andless brawler nerfs refering to PvP results (since PvP should be a seperate game).cheers,Nok

[Bewts]

<p>Want to give monks the best uncontested avoidance?</p><p>Give us the uncontested avoidance in the KoS STR tree on the 4th tier.</p><p>8% of all hostile attacks will be Riposted.</p><p>16% of all hostile attacks will be Parried.</p><p>24% of all hostile attacks will be Deflected.</p><p>If no weapons equipped in primary or secondary.</p><p>You lose all the benefits from large damage spread weapons, procs from weapons, adornment on weapons, stats they give and have to rely on double attacks from your fists for auto attack damage.  Granted you can 'up' your DPS a bit while tanking with Chi which isn't all that bad of a choice but you give up either craneflock or criticals/Parry from the wis or int trees.  Considering our EoF Trees don't do much for dps anyways, this should significantly help us step up to the plate to tank while forcing us to choose tanking in a STR/INT or STR/WIS setup or dps in the typical WIS/INT trees.  My Choice would be STR/WIS because the raw HP given from the Wisdom tree should help offset any loss of weapons and Chi + Craneflock is a pretty solid way to surge dps from time to time.</p>

[Couching]

<cite>Bewts wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Want to give monks the best uncontested avoidance?</p><p>Give us the uncontested avoidance in the KoS STR tree on the 4th tier.</p><p>8% of all hostile attacks will be Riposted.</p><p>16% of all hostile attacks will be Parried.</p><p>24% of all hostile attacks will be Deflected.</p><p>If no weapons equipped in primary or secondary.</p><p>You lose all the benefits from large damage spread weapons, procs from weapons, adornment on weapons, stats they give and have to rely on double attacks from your fists for auto attack damage.  Granted you can 'up' your DPS a bit while tanking with Chi which isn't all that bad of a choice but you give up either craneflock or criticals/Parry from the wis or int trees.  Considering our EoF Trees don't do much for dps anyways, this should significantly help us step up to the plate to tank while forcing us to choose tanking in a STR/INT or STR/WIS setup or dps in the typical WIS/INT trees.  My Choice would be STR/WIS because the raw HP given from the Wisdom tree should help offset any loss of weapons and Chi + Craneflock is a pretty solid way to surge dps from time to time.</p></blockquote>It is the worst idea I have ever seen.Str line itself is a big mistake since this game is all about progression.For lv 70 player, every class has 5 lines except brawler. Now, with epic weapon introduced in RoK, you want us to play with bare fist again to get uncontested avoidance? No thanks.Did guardian, zerker pal and sk pay anything to get uncontested avoidance? Nope, why should brawler has to give up weapons to get uncontested avoidance in any stance? This logic is totally flawed.

[Kaoru]

SOE would do us nothing but good removing the entire str aa line and replacing it with something useful. This line is utter garbage unless you are a lowbie toon and anyone over level 65 who still thinks this has a place in the game should go step in front of the nearest moving automobile.

[Almeric_CoS]

<p>Excuse you, but not everyone has access to awesome weapons at 65.  I used STR line until 70 and eventually switched it out for some more utilitarian weapons (tank build), but without fableds, my DPS has never been as high as when I was STR specced.</p>

[Kaoru]

Everyone has access to the broker, most fabled weapons can be bought for less then 10 plat each. Brawlers are also one of the best farming classes in the game. 2+2= easily accessible. This equation does not take into account that any kos fabled weapon can also be obtained by pickup raids rather easily as well, hell there are 5 pickup labs raids alone going on everyday here on blackburrow. Awesome weapons are not needed and with the new weapon changes there are more options then there used to be. I suggest you do a quest and get at least the legendary version of the sod which is obtainable by anyone.These weapons regardless of attainability are part of the progression of the game. The str line does not progress with the game and does nothing but hold the class back. Its time has passed and it should be removed.

[Junaru]

<cite>Almeric@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Excuse you, but not everyone has access to awesome weapons at 65.  I used STR line until 70 and eventually switched it out for some more utilitarian weapons (tank build), but without fableds, my DPS has never been as high as when I was STR specced.</p></blockquote>I don't know about your server but on Mistmoore I see pickup raids going into Labs nearly every day and only require 64+.

[Couching]

<cite>Almeric@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Excuse you, but not everyone has access to awesome weapons at 65.  I used STR line until 70 and eventually switched it out for some more utilitarian weapons (tank build), but without fableds, my DPS has never been as high as when I was STR specced.</p></blockquote>Str line is about 60-63, depending on your str,  damage rating 2h but with 96% double attack.Now, you can get a pair of legendary 53 damage rating weapon with 2 procs on each. The damage difference between a pair of legendary weapons and your fist is minimum and your have a lot of better survivability in solo since you have at least extra 200-300 hp. 40+ str and agi.Not to say, the major disadvantage of using fist is that we didn't get any fist skill bonus in our offensive stance.What does it mean? It means when you are fighting yellow to orange mobs with fists, you will miss a lot than using weapons.In general, you should get equal damage from a pair of 53 damage rating weapons and fist on blue mobs. You should get better damage with a pair of 53 damage rating weapons than fists on yellow and orange mobs. If you can't get better damages with weapons, the problem is that you need to learn how to time you CAs between auto attack.

[Shankonia]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Then you are missing plate tanks have their own tree to enhance them to be even superior in tanking or in dps. The same thing happens on rogue tree. They can have either uber dps or uber tanking. The only weak sauce is brawler tree comparing to plate tanks and rogue.We have nothing no matter in dps or tanking in our brawler tree comparing to others. As plate tank, they have more uncontested avoidance from shield than brawler, they can even get more from war tree or crusader tree. Not to say, they get also enhanced hate and mitigation. What brawlers get? The  more idiotic contested avoidance and tiny hp!I don't even bother to list how good they can get for their dps route.I would say, if brawler tree can be revamped in RoK so that we can spec either tanking or dpsing as other classes, it will balance brawler and other fighters and rogues in this game.</p></blockquote><p>I thought we moved past this Couching.  Not really sure why you're still bashing plate tanks AA lines. </p><p><span style="color: #009999;">Why and when? Brawler aa is the worst between fighter and scout.</span></p><span style="color: #009999;"> </span><span style="color: #009999;"><blockquote><p><span style="color: #009999;">Plate tank and rogue can spec either dpsing or tanking but we can't, why? Bcz we can out parse rogue and out tank plate tanks without aa already?</span><span style="color: #0033cc;"></span></p><p>Monks have the best raid wide buff in the game.  Our DPS and burst damage is better than it was, and though I don't raid with a Zerker I know that if i'm in an equal group as any other tank i'm going to out parse them.  My healers have also managed to keep me alive on every single thing i've tanked in the game.</p><p>You're still talking about AA equality and uncontested avoidance while some of us are the highest parsing tanks who fill our roles pretty well picking up stray mobs and OTing when needed.</p><span style="color: #000099;"><span style="color: #009999;">If you get better burst dps after lu38, it shows that you don't know how to play monk before. In fact, we did less burst dps in a short fight after lu38 if you knew how to play monk. In a longer fight, it's about even.For off tanking, your reply is really silly.  I don't know why we are fine since we have zero uncontested avoidance in offensive stance comparing to plate tank with 25%~35% uncontested avoidance in any stance and 3%-6% higher in mitigation. You can off tank isn't because you are good, it's because your healers are good. In fact, any plate tanks can tank better than you do as well as in dpsing if they are dps spec. Even they are dps spec, they still tank better than us since they have better mitigation and better uncontested avoidance.</span><span style="color: #009999;">All fighters, except brawler, can hit 2k+ ZW dps while tanking or dpsing in offensive stance. The only exception is brawler. If we have to get uncontested avoidance, we have to be in defensive stance. Or are you telling me that you can hit 2k+ ZW in defensive stance? Cool, show me the proof.</span></span><p>I'm happy and satisfied with the class right now for the first time in YEARS.  I can put up good dps while i'm not tanking which allows me to grab aggro on any single target somewhat quickly and live to tell about it until the MT or another plate can get back on it.  Sometimes I even just tank it myself - because I can.</p><p>Our raiding weakness is picking up aggro on multi-mob encounters.  It's a weakness.  We have one.  I'm glad we have one.</p><p>I still can't see why any Monk would want to choose thier path - pure DPS/pure tank.  If you want to be an MT, roll a Guard.  If you want to be a purse melee DPS, Assassins are good for that.</p><span style="color: #009999;">If your logic is correct, why warrior and crusader trees have different path for tanking and dpsing? Also, why rogue tree has different path for tanking and dpsing? Ok, maybe you should petition to nerf war, crusader and rogue trees since they shouldn't have both spec in their trees.</span><p>I've always just wanted to be the highest fighter DPS who can tank when needed.  That's what I am.  If you want to be the best fighter tank who can DPS when needed, Guards are good for that.</p><p><span style="color: #009999;">Haha, which fighter can't tank when needed? Actually, which rogue can't tank when needed? Moreover, monk is not the highest fighter DPS since bruiser, zerker and SK are higher than us. In some fights, pal will out damage most fighters if pal has right aa setup.</span><span style="color: #009999;">As long as we have that stupid 140+ self haste, we will never be the highest fighter dps in raid since we can't get benefit from group haste.</span></p><p>I really don't see why there should be a change to limit our tanking abilities to give us even more DPS nor limit our DPS abilities to give us better tanking skills.  They do this, I only see it making us overpowered or way more useless than many think we already are.</p><p><span style="color: #003399;"><span style="color: #009999;">You are one monk of whole monk community. A lot of replies in this thread have supported the idea that monk can spec in either dpsing or tanking. </span></span></p><span style="color: #003399;"> </span></blockquote></span></blockquote></blockquote><p>The point is Couching, Monks are a hybrid class.  We're good at alot of things, not the best at any.  I'm not trying to take any shots at you, but in an equal group with equal buffs you should have roughly the same or more dps than the other tanks zonewide.</p><p>As far as tanking goes, you're a Monk.  You are not a MT.  You are not the #1 OT.  You shouldn't be designated as either of those because that has never been the Monk's role.  You are there for oh sheet situations to keep poeple alive.  You can tank most every encounter in every instance.  Yet you still have this huge problem with plate tanks as well as scouts and what they do compared to what you do.  If you want to be one so freaking bad - GO BE ONE.</p><p>The last thing I want is a ONE DIMENSIONAL Monk.  I can fill both tanking and DPS roles sufficiently in the games present state and I really don't want that to change.  I don't even want to risk it.</p><p>Would I like to have better tanking survivability?  Sure it would be nice.  More dps?  Sure, i'd like that.  Better AA's?  Sure, i'll take some of those too.</p><p>Do I however want to weaken my DPS to remain a 2nd tier tank right behind the Guards and Zerkers?  NO!  If I wanted that i'd have rolled a Guard.</p><p>Do I want to weaken my tanking to be alot worse than I am now however putting up Assassin DPS?  NO!  If I wanted that i'd have rolled an Assassin.</p><p>See what i'm getting at?  Monks will NEVER be the best at either tanking or DPS.  Suck it up and go play the game.</p><p>I used to complain alot about the state of the Monk.  I agreed with everything most of you said about needing improvements.  Sure, we can still use a few tweaks, but i'm finally happy playing my Monk again and logging off feeling like I did something.  Changing the class in it's entirty however is ridiculous in my mind - and it seems to me that by having to choose a path that's exactly what's happening.    </p>

[Shankonia]

<cite>Fleaball@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>IMHO they should seriously differentiate the monk into 2 serious paths. Give us a choice via aa lines or something of being a leet sauce tank that can stand up right next to a Zerker/Pally in tanking abilities,</blockquote>Since when was a Pali "leet sauce?"

[Fleaba]

<cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fleaball@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>IMHO they should seriously differentiate the monk into 2 serious paths. Give us a choice via aa lines or something of being a leet sauce tank that can stand up right next to a Zerker/Pally in tanking abilities,</blockquote>Since when was a Pali "leet sauce?"</blockquote>Since they bring a lot of decent abilities to a raid and if you set them up right, they are the meanest agro machines in the game.

[Couching]

<cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>The point is Couching, Monks are a hybrid class.  We're good at alot of things, not the best at any.  I'm not trying to take any shots at you, but in an equal group with equal buffs you should have roughly the same or more dps than the other tanks zonewide.</p><p><span style="color: #009999;">No, we dont since our high self haste. The trade off of high self haste is that we have almost worst CA damage in all fighters. Our CAs damage is just a little higher than guardian but worse than zerker. Not to say bruiser or Sk.</span></p><p><span style="color: #009999;">That's why Zerker , sk and bruiser have higher ZW dps than monk as long as they are in buff stack group. It's very easy to get both haste and dps over 200 nowadays for any class in raid in a buff stack group. Ya, I can get 300+ haste or even almost 400 temporary  in the raid. But so what? I still did less damage than zerker, sk and brusier with 200 haste since they did more damage from their hard hitting CAs. </span></p><p><span style="color: #009999;">See the problem here?</span></p><p>As far as tanking goes, you're a Monk.  You are not a MT.  You are not the #1 OT.  You shouldn't be designated as either of those because that has never been the Monk's role.  You are there for oh sheet situations to keep poeple alive.  You can tank most every encounter in every instance.  Yet you still have this huge problem with plate tanks as well as scouts and what they do compared to what you do.  If you want to be one so freaking bad - GO BE ONE.</p><p><span style="color: #009999;">Wrong, I didn't say we are number 1 tank. Though, we are avoidance tank but with less uncontested avoidance is totally screwed. Even we have uncontested avoidance as plate tank, they are still better since they have higher mitigation. You excuses are lame.</span></p><p>The last thing I want is a ONE DIMENSIONAL Monk.  I can fill both tanking and DPS roles sufficiently in the games present state and I really don't want that to change.  I don't even want to risk it.</p><p><span style="color: #009999;">Who can't? Which tank can't fill the role you said? Moreover, what are you going to lose ? There is nothing in our brawler tree for tanking enhancement. The only thing is the tiny hp boost and more useless contested avoidance. I will trade 4% hp to 4% mitigation boost any day for better tanking capability.</span></p><p>Would I like to have better tanking survivability?  Sure it would be nice.  More dps?  Sure, i'd like that.  Better AA's?  Sure, i'll take some of those too.</p><p>Do I however want to weaken my DPS to remain a 2nd tier tank right behind the Guards and Zerkers?  NO!  If I wanted that i'd have rolled a Guard.</p><p><span style="color: #009999;">We have nothing to lose to weaken our dps. In fact, we need a boost in our dps lines. We have no double attack with weapon, we have less critical than war tree.</span></p><p><span style="color: #009999;">We have weak sauce aoe comparing to 40% aoe in war and crusader tree. What can we lose more?</span></p><p>Do I want to weaken my tanking to be alot worse than I am now however putting up Assassin DPS?  NO!  If I wanted that i'd have rolled an Assassin.</p><p><span style="color: #009999;">Again, we have nothing to lose of tanking capability in our brawler tree. You statement is pointless since we have nothing to lose.</span></p><p>See what i'm getting at?  Monks will NEVER be the best at either tanking or DPS.  Suck it up and go play the game.</p><p><span style="color: #009999;">No, because your excuses are so lame. You kept saying we are best fighter dps and we aren't. End of story.</span></p><p>I used to complain alot about the state of the Monk.  I agreed with everything most of you said about needing improvements.  Sure, we can still use a few tweaks, but i'm finally happy playing my Monk again and logging off feeling like I did something.  Changing the class in it's entirty however is ridiculous in my mind - and it seems to me that by having to choose a path that's exactly what's happening.   </p><p><span style="color: #009999;">You are happy and you came here to stop different opinions or even call people suck it? Serious, grow up dude.</span></p><p><span style="color: #009999;">Most monks, or at least in this thread, want to have a clear path in our brawler tree for either tanking or dps.</span></p><p><span style="color: #009999;">By what you said, suck it and go play the game.</span> </p></blockquote>Stop making up a story that we were asking for assassin dps or guardian tanking capability. None of us said we want assassin dps or tanking as guardian.Having clear path for either tanking or dps is totally different that what you said. <i><b>I will say it again, Guardian, Zerker, Pal, SK, Swashy and Brig all have clear path for both dps and tanking in their trees.</b></i><b><i>Brawler deserves clear path for tanking and dps as well as them.</i></b>

[Kota]

pretty sick of ppl saying 'if you wanna be a good tank go play a guardian' etc.  it's ridiculous.  a lot of us just want to play monks.  a lot of us just want to play monks and not have them be lame.  most cutting edge raiders don't even consider monks a real class.  not tanks.  not dps.  next thing ppl will be saying is 'if you wanted to raid you shoulda played *anything but a monk*'.

[Dorieon]

<p><cite>Sullen@Nagafen wrote: </cite> most cutting edge raiders don't even consider monks a real class.  not tanks.  not dps.  next thing ppl will be saying is 'if you wanted to raid you shoulda played *anything but a monk*'. </p><p>Its been said before. The best is when someone says it and you compare character start dates and your monk has been around longer. </p>

[Harvash]

<cite>Dorieon@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><cite>Sullen@Nagafen wrote: </cite> most cutting edge raiders don't even consider monks a real class.  not tanks.  not dps.  next thing ppl will be saying is 'if you wanted to raid you shoulda played *anything but a monk*'. </p><p>Its been said before. The best is when someone says it and you compare character start dates and your monk has been around longer. </p></blockquote>Swift Calm ~ too bad no caster classes are chiming in here ~ Nuff Said.

[ShinGoku]

To be honest, as much as I love my monk, I would love a different AA tree all together.Zerkers get a wonderful end line ability on theirs that removes all negative effects from the various stances e.g. defense stance won't reduce your crushing / slashing etc.  Ranger is another that has a similar AA ability.When you add to this the other AAs everyone else gets for hate generation etc it just doesn't seem fair.This extends to gear also.  Why do zerkers get more avoidance than we do?  So what, they have a shield, but as monkswe are meant to be the avoidance daddys..Not much I can add to what has been said before but any kind of review of our class is welcome from my perspective.

[Dorieon]

<cite>Eneoki@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dorieon@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><cite>Sullen@Nagafen wrote: </cite> most cutting edge raiders don't even consider monks a real class.  not tanks.  not dps.  next thing ppl will be saying is 'if you wanted to raid you shoulda played *anything but a monk*'. </p><p>Its been said before. The best is when someone says it and you compare character start dates and your monk has been around longer. </p></blockquote>Swift Calm ~ too bad no caster classes are chiming in here ~ Nuff Said.</blockquote>Yeah, my casters love it. Hell the scouts and fighters in my guild love it. I wasn't saying that we have no raid desirablity, just that people have played the "if you wanted to raid you shouldn't have rolled a monk" card before. However, I haven't seen it said since the Swift Calm changes.

[Shankonia]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><i><b>I will say it again, Guardian, Zerker, Pal, SK, Swashy and Brig all have clear path for both dps and tanking in their trees.</b></i><b><i>Brawler deserves clear path for tanking and dps as well as them.</i></b></blockquote><p>I wouldn't mind seeing a clear path for tanking and a clear path for dps so long as we also can see a clear path to do a decent amount of both.</p>