Warden... the Lone Wolf?

[Skivley101]

<p>Im just stirring up dust here really</p><p>Considering What the devs gave the warden ... Are we more suited for the solo experience?</p><p>It seems we have self suficiency capabilities,But not the needed raid utility that our heals dont provide.</p><p>Maybe SoE's vision of us was meant to be this way .... I say why? ...sure its cool to be able to pawn names that others cant solo.</p><p> But we are getting left behind on being a cog in the wheel for the Raid force that is being created by the devs that write the mechanics.</p><p>Maybe this wasnt forseen <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> becuz it hadn't happend yet (LOL) well here it is .... so freaking deal with it pLzzzzz!!!  DeV's (we luv you)</p><p>{edited for grammar and fuzzyness}</p>

[Deejar_]

<p>Hey guy's I hope it's only wardens that read these posts cos from some of the posts I read I think your talking yourselves out of a job. I raid as warden with my guild in eof and often see ooc chat looking for pick up wardens for raids, so I don,t think we should hang up our animists boot's just yet. Granted we could do with a few improvements so just sit back and cross your fingers and raid on  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Zante</p>

[Deejar_]

sorry doubled up

[Valena]

<cite>Deejar_ wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hey guy's I hope it's only wardens that read these posts cos from some of the posts I read I think your talking yourselves out of a job. I raid as warden with my guild in eof and often see ooc chat looking for pick up wardens for raids, so I don,t think we should hang up our animists boot's just yet. Granted we could do with a few improvements so just sit back and cross your fingers and raid on  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Zante</p></blockquote><p>I totally agree. We only feel gimped because we don't have any raidworthy group buffs, but I still always manage to parse in the top 3 healers .. and it's not normally 3rd no matter which group I'm in.</p><p>I just hope that SOE can decide which way to take us - melee or nuke - and give us the proper kit to fill that role in RoK. mmmmmm, Fabled Class armour with Str, mmmmmmm.</p>

[MullenSkywatcher]

<cite>Valena@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deejar_ wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hey guy's I hope it's only wardens that read these posts cos from some of the posts I read I think your talking yourselves out of a job. I raid as warden with my guild in eof and often see ooc chat looking for pick up wardens for raids, so I don,t think we should hang up our animists boot's just yet. Granted we could do with a few improvements so just sit back and cross your fingers and raid on  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Zante</p></blockquote><p>I totally agree. We only feel gimped because we don't have any raidworthy group buffs, but I still always manage to parse in the top 3 healers .. and it's not normally 3rd no matter which group I'm in.</p><p>I just hope that SOE can decide which way to take us - melee or nuke - and give us the proper kit to fill that role in RoK. mmmmmm, Fabled Class armour with Str, mmmmmmm.</p></blockquote>Its not a "feeling".  The sad truth of the matter is that we are the least desirable raid healer.  Furies, for all the envy we have towards them are honestly only slightly better, grabbing one slot on a raid in the caster group.  Raids are slanted towards clerics and shaman at the moment, because they bring the best combination of heals, buffs, debuffs, damage, and utility.  The lack of utility of warden on raids doesn't exhibit itself in solo or group play where the fights are short, or bring our non raid strengths into play (ports, evac, root, etc.).For pickup raids and guild that can't adjust (meaning, you can't or aren't willing to switch the warden over to another class or recruit more cleric/shaman) you can still raid with the warden, its just harder.  I know we have several warden posters who just can't bear the though of being the lesser healer and who beat their chests and scream to the mountains on how great they are, which is probably true, but its the player, not the class.  They'd be an even better healer if they played a different class with a better raid toolkit.Also, be careful when using a parse to support your argument, as debuffs will not show in the healing column, but as a reduction in the mobs DPS, which is both superior and harder to calculate.  On some fights the parse wont even be valid (EoF mob encounters where groups are split far apart to avoid overlapping AOEs create a situation where healers will be out of range and wont generate log events and therefore wont show up on the parse).  And, higher DPS usually indicates a fight going well, whereas a higher heal parse often means the fight just took longer.

[Skivley101]

<p>deejar wrote: Hey guy's I hope it's only wardens that read these posts </p><p>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~</p><p>LOL ....are you serious?  thats just silly ... this place is called [class discussion board]</p><p>If some raid leader reads these comments and makes their desicion soley on what the forums say ...then their probably a newbie and gona lose their job anyway.</p><p>My advice would be dont take anybody's word as gold ...do the research your self ... Dont be a sheep in wolfs clothing</p><p>I luv the warden class ... and will always play this char that ive had since almost launch ... period!!!</p>

[Fromingo]

It's not about healer parses.  ANY healer can parse well.  That's just player skill and all healers are very balanced as far as healing goes.   It's all the extra stuff that higher end raid leaders want.  The debuffs,  the buffs,  boosting group's DPS, doing awesome DPS yourself.   And I am speaking as someone who spent years in a casual guild with mostly wardens for healers and now I am in the highest raid guild on my server.   There's a huge difference when you choose the right classes (assuming all are skilled players) to maximise your raid's potential. 

[Arielle Nightshade]

<cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Valena@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deejar_ wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hey guy's I hope it's only wardens that read these posts cos from some of the posts I read I think your talking yourselves out of a job. I raid as warden with my guild in eof and often see ooc chat looking for pick up wardens for raids, so I don,t think we should hang up our animists boot's just yet. Granted we could do with a few improvements so just sit back and cross your fingers and raid on  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Zante</p></blockquote><p>I totally agree. We only feel gimped because we don't have any raidworthy group buffs, but I still always manage to parse in the top 3 healers .. and it's not normally 3rd no matter which group I'm in.</p><p>I just hope that SOE can decide which way to take us - melee or nuke - and give us the proper kit to fill that role in RoK. mmmmmm, Fabled Class armour with Str, mmmmmmm.</p></blockquote>Its not a "feeling".  The sad truth of the matter is that we are the least desirable raid healer.  Furies, for all the envy we have towards them are honestly only slightly better, grabbing one slot on a raid in the caster group.  Raids are slanted towards clerics and shaman at the moment, because they bring the best combination of heals, buffs, debuffs, damage, and utility.  The lack of utility of warden on raids doesn't exhibit itself in solo or group play where the fights are short, or bring our non raid strengths into play (ports, evac, root, etc.).For pickup raids and guild that can't adjust (meaning, you can't or aren't willing to switch the warden over to another class or recruit more cleric/shaman) you can still raid with the warden, its just harder.  I know we have several warden posters who just can't bear the though of being the lesser healer and who beat their chests and scream to the mountains on how great they are, which is probably true, but its the player, not the class.  They'd be an even better healer if they played a different class with a better raid toolkit.Also, be careful when using a parse to support your argument, as debuffs will not show in the healing column, but as a reduction in the mobs DPS, which is both superior and harder to calculate.  On some fights the parse wont even be valid (EoF mob encounters where groups are split far apart to avoid overlapping AOEs create a situation where healers will be out of range and wont generate log events and therefore wont show up on the parse).  And, higher DPS usually indicates a fight going well, whereas a higher heal parse often means the fight just took longer.</blockquote><p>Sorry for the copying of this whole thread, but the whole thing is well-said...Mullen, this answer is perfect, IMO.</p><p>Also, consider that we are moping about raid utility right now because many of us are at end-game, been there, done that, got the "I Killed Mayong" t-shirt.  Our focus is raiding cause we are waiting for new content.    To say we are useless or solo healers is kind of short sighted because we are placing that in the highest of high end raid context.  Probably 95% of our community doesn't play in this context either.</p><p>In most groups, we don't even break a sweat to heal, and our whole Bag of Tricks(tm) can come into play.</p><p>I've not had the same disappointment as a raid healer that many of you guys have had.  I've never sat out (sitted out..?) because the raid prefered Fury, for example, and have just gone in and had a great time.   I am not a first on the server guild raid healer either - so I may have been spared watching another healer take my spot for the optimum perfect setup because of being more casual (but that's perfectly fine with me)</p><p>This in no way should be construed as me thinking we are Fine.   We are not.  We DO need more raid utility.  We DO need our buffs and sandstorm and whatnot looked at.   I'm just offering the perspective of:  Maybe it's your guild and raid setup that's making you feel that way?   I feel like a valued member of my raid force, but I play way more socially than some of you guys do (meaning you are far more competitive than I am).</p><p>Another perspective comes from having a Templar and Defiler who also raid.   I did one raid on my Defiler where they decided to have just Templar and Defiler in the MT group, leaving the druids in the other group. (I can't remember why, or what the other classes were...dirge, coercer..um...something..).    I was screaming for a Warden in the group...because even though a Defiler can suck up the parse numbers and ward for the biggest bunch of healing, it's a CHORE to try and keep the tank healed without druids' regens for sticking in the middle of wards and reactives.  Once wards are breached, Defiler direct healing is painful.    It may be a case of not knowing how good the pure healing of Warden is till you aren't there...IDK.</p><p>I guess I never want to raid in such a way that any guild or raid force thinks I'm not useful - so I've never been in that situation...is what I'm saying.   From the standpoint of logging in for a second on my PvP server Defiler and being treated like gold, I'm still saying Warden is my favorite class, and I'll wrap some roots around my fingers and hang in there  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Fromingo]

<p>Oh I completely agree that it's the way high end raid guilds are that causes some wardens to experience the lack of raid desirability more than others.  Since I have been in both hard core and casual guilds, since the earliest days of EQ1, I know that is never going to change however.  Game devs, who want successful games, will always have super hard content that requires some guilds to be super hard core to meet the challenge and then content that challenges a casual guild but would prob bore some of the hardcore players.   So the high end raid designs require guilds to optomize and maximize.  And so some wardens sit out.   We just had our 2nd warden leave the guild because he didn't feel 2 wardens were needed so now I am alone and will probably not have to sit much unless it's trash that they want to burn quick.  However I'd still rather see more raid utility that makes more than 1 warden (at most) desirable in the end game.</p><p>Also I know from experience that if my casual guild had more of the raid shining classes like brigands, assassins/swash, defilers, templars, inquis, etc that they would get a lot farther than they had with a bunch of wardens, a mystic and a ton of tanks heh.   They are skilled enough to at least be doing most KOS and even some EOF content,  they just lack the right classes to take them to the next level.</p>

[MullenSkywatcher]

I think a lot of the resentment comes from having no information about RoK, so without new AAs or revamped AAs, straight upgrades to our spell line will mean yet another full year at the bottom of the raid healer pile.  That to me is the most depressing thought, unless the warden epic is so good that it makes up for everything else.  Somehow I'm not willing to get my hopes up.If you are raiding with a warden and having fun playing the game then that means more than any parse or depression-laced post from me.  Its just heartbreaking for me to shelve a class I put so much effort into because the developers ran short of creative, balanced ideas when they got to our class.

[Frametree]

<p>Agreed (with the agreeable part of the above).  What's heart rending is to be in a high-end or casual guild at the end-game, and realize that in fact, you have virtually nothing to offer.  Other posts in this and other threads explain better than I what I mean by "nothing to offer."  I don't mean that literally.  It's a balance thing:  I offer less than those who offer more than I can.  Who can deny that tautology?  Sure, we can heal, I know, I know.  I've been doing it for ages now.  But it'd be nice again to really contribute.  Now, for context, I am in a high-end raiding guild.  I'm lucky, though, in that the fact that wardens don't (on balance) contribute what other healer classes do has been not so quietly overlooked.  I realize everybody knows, but there I am.  And in fact we have 2.  Posters who say "hey, it can be done w/ wardens, etc." are right.  But they miss the mark.  The issue is, why should it be?  And the only good answer is, because they're needed.  Once that answer is a correct answer, I'll be happy.</p><p>On a different note, what's up with the EoF boots?  I've been trying for months now, and no luck.  Do they actually drop?  </p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think a lot of the resentment comes from having no information about RoK, so without new AAs or revamped AAs, straight upgrades to our spell line will mean yet another full year at the bottom of the raid healer pile.  That to me is the most depressing thought, unless the warden epic is so good that it makes up for everything else.  Somehow I'm not willing to get my hopes up.If you are raiding with a warden and having fun playing the game then that means more than any parse or depression-laced post from me.  Its just heartbreaking for me to shelve a class I put so much effort into because the developers ran short of creative, balanced ideas when they got to our class.</blockquote><p>I agree heartily here.   Just because I'm having a decent time of it, doesn't at all make it "Fine, Just Fine".     I've played most of the game fairly casually, and it suits me.   But it doesn't suit everybody, and those people (meaning YOU) should have a voice.   We all should.</p><p>If a dev is going to build high-end content, then they should consider who will be doing it.  They should realize that everyone aiming for that goal wants to not have to try and guess which classes to play so that they are needed. Not when 70 ..and soon to be 80...is end game.    Everyone wants a role.   As we have said many times before - no one signed up at launch to be a backup healer. </p><p>Every healer should be greeted with the reverence a Defiler is and have buffs needed to raid like a Templar does.  Why the devs think that healing is balanced when you literally cannot do a raid without one of these guys, but (argueably) you can without us...is beyond me, but typical.    That said, the fun I'm having is seeing the lower end ...end game content.  If the only way my guild can get much further is to sit me out in favor of another healing class..I can easily understand your dissatisfaction.</p><p>You hit the nail on the head with one word: Resentment.   Many of us have put a lot of time into this class - either casually or hardcore - 'seems like' or serious number crunchers.   Fixing it so we have to level another class in order to have the role we want after all this time - whether intentionally or not - does not keep me interested in the game.   I can do the lower level quests only so many times...it's not new and fascinating every time I see it.   </p><p>It's less that we don't get instant gratification from the things we want to see, we are all a bit more mature than that.  But resentment builds when time and time again requests, thoughts, and desires for the direction of the class that we have shaped are put aside.  We are either communicated with as if we are a bunch of ADD-riddled jr high kids (if you are one, I apologize..), or not replied to at all.</p><p>When you do a risk-gain assessment for liking or not liking this game, the one thing that puts it head and shoulders above others (and I've tried WoW to end game, Vanguard and Guild Wars) is the community.  Not the games, the people playing them.  Sadly, this awesome community is IN SPITE of some of the technical and creative folks designing the game, not because of it, IMO.  </p><p>The other side of My 2 ...I guess <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /> , </p>

[Fromingo]

<cite>Frametree wrote:</cite><blockquote>On a different note, what's up with the EoF boots?  I've been trying for months now, and no luck.  Do they actually drop?  </blockquote>Yeah I just finished up my fabaled  set last week with boots.    With the new changes to loot system just swap people out in your boot mob raids that have boots for ones that don't.   But yeah before the loot changes I think about 14 pairs of troub boots 'rotted'  LOL

[Steelbreath]

I guess I find these threads kind of odd. Of the raid progression guilds I am aware of they have two or maybe three defilers, same with templars. The defiler is used in the main tank group, of which there is one. These guilds also only have two or three guardians, berserkers, inquisitors etc. The fact is for serious raiding guilds they tend to be small and there's just not that many of them out there, and as far as I know they all have wardens, but only a couple. This as I've stated isn't any different then the other healing classes. The rest of the guilds I am aware of take what they can get. Raiding is not an activity done by the entire player base; most people don't have the time to devout to anything but pickup, or casual raids. We are very powerful in groups doing instances, we have amazing tools to keep the tank going, and I think we are the best clutch healers around. We're also competent soloers with the melee spec, something that a defiler, or templar isn't. They can solo, but it's about as exciting as watching paint dry. If you want to raid, there is no guarantee that any class you roll will be needed.

[Geistman]

<span class="postbody">[deleted long blabla post]Guys (and girls of course), we have pretty much two choices. Leave it, cause wardens are a perfect class in comparison to the other healers, or try to point out the strengths and weeknesses of the Warden to show that we are superior equal to the other healers and fury in special, or that we are inferior/equal to other healers.The later one will have the effect that we really need to compare the other classes to the Warden and (either) tell </span><ul><li><span class="postbody">the devs, that </span></li><ul><li><span class="postbody">they need to improve us</span></li><li><span class="postbody">they nerv the others (they will get [Removed for Content])</span></li></ul><li><span class="postbody">and/or the raidleaders, that</span></li><ul><li><span class="postbody">there is no reason to choose another class, cause they don't provide the difference they are stating</span></li><li><span class="postbody">it's bad to choose the other class, cause the Warden delivers more value due to xxx then the other due to it's xxx</span></li></ul></ul>if we do that, I think we should finish it before the test for RoK finishes and work in the changes of RoK asap to see if it improved or not. The release of the Expansion would be the best time cause a lot of changes will be implemented anyway. It's also this time where the devs ask for feedback and where we got the best chance to be heard, so if we prepare for that coordinated, I think we have a pretty good chance of success and the devs profit from a profound and well worked out feedback.So who's in?<span class="postbody"></span>

[Skivley101]

<p>^^^ Im in geistman .... But your not exactly clear on what we're in for ...IDK maybe its just the morning fuzyness after drinking last night , but im thinking you need to simplify that above question if it was one.</p><p>ahh crap i got bumped to page 2 ...my arrows mean nothing now ...lol</p>

[jka]

<cite>Geistman@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><span class="postbody">[deleted long blabla post]Guys (and girls of course), we have pretty much two choices. Leave it, cause wardens are a perfect class in comparison to the other healers, or try to point out the strengths and weeknesses of the Warden to show that we are superior equal to the other healers and fury in special, or that we are inferior/equal to other healers.The later one will have the effect that we really need to compare the other classes to the Warden and (either) tell </span><ul><li><span class="postbody">the devs, that</span></li><ul><li><span class="postbody">they need to improve us</span></li><li><span class="postbody">they nerv the others (they will get [Removed for Content])</span></li></ul><li><span class="postbody">and/or the raidleaders, that</span></li><ul><li><span class="postbody">there is no reason to choose another class, cause they don't provide the difference they are stating</span></li><li><span class="postbody">it's bad to choose the other class, cause the Warden delivers more value due to xxx then the other due to it's xxx</span></li></ul></ul>if we do that, I think we should finish it before the test for RoK finishes and work in the changes of RoK asap to see if it improved or not. The release of the Expansion would be the best time cause a lot of changes will be implemented anyway. It's also this time where the devs ask for feedback and where we got the best chance to be heard, so if we prepare for that coordinated, I think we have a pretty good chance of success and the devs profit from a profound and well worked out feedback.So who's in?<span class="postbody"></span></blockquote><p>I once received this response about feedback and how it would be preceived or reviewed.</p><p><i> If it's coherent and well written it will be seen.</i></p><p>As much as I know a true well written and coherent review will put the warden class in a bad light with raid leaders . I think for the warden class, my vote would be to take the chance on the information being seen.</p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<cite>jkamp wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geistman@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><span class="postbody">[deleted long blabla post]Guys (and girls of course), we have pretty much two choices. Leave it, cause wardens are a perfect class in comparison to the other healers, or try to point out the strengths and weeknesses of the Warden to show that we are superior equal to the other healers and fury in special, or that we are inferior/equal to other healers.The later one will have the effect that we really need to compare the other classes to the Warden and (either) tell </span><ul><li><span class="postbody">the devs, that</span></li><ul><li><span class="postbody">they need to improve us</span></li><li><span class="postbody">they nerv the others (they will get [Removed for Content])</span></li></ul><li><span class="postbody">and/or the raidleaders, that</span></li><ul><li><span class="postbody">there is no reason to choose another class, cause they don't provide the difference they are stating</span></li><li><span class="postbody">it's bad to choose the other class, cause the Warden delivers more value due to xxx then the other due to it's xxx</span></li></ul></ul>if we do that, I think we should finish it before the test for RoK finishes and work in the changes of RoK asap to see if it improved or not. The release of the Expansion would be the best time cause a lot of changes will be implemented anyway. It's also this time where the devs ask for feedback and where we got the best chance to be heard, so if we prepare for that coordinated, I think we have a pretty good chance of success and the devs profit from a profound and well worked out feedback.So who's in?<span class="postbody"></span></blockquote><p>I once received this response about feedback and how it would be preceived or reviewed.</p><p><i> If it's coherent and well written it will be seen.</i></p><p>As much as I know a true well written and coherent review will put the warden class in a bad light with raid leaders . I think for the warden class, my vote would be to take the chance on the information being seen.</p></blockquote><p>Nice sentiments, both of you - but you missed the Combat Revamp.  No matter how well written or thoughtful, no matter how much hard data was expressed, no matter what ideas were offered:  it was ignored.  For months.   The sentiment "We'd better get these thoughts in during DoF (KoS, EoF...fill in the expansion blank) Testing because then they can change it for launch!"  is admirable, and of course makes perfect sense.   For all 3 expansions we offered this, with the same result.   The class went live with no indication that the devs had heard anything we said about the overall class.  </p><p>I'm *NOT* 'in' for trying to talk the devs into tweaking the class to bring us up to par with some of the other healers.  Been there, done that, got the scars in the form of not wanting to bang my head on the wall that is no response from them.  If they do change things, great.  If they don't (which I, at this point, believe more) I play more than just this game.   Sorry, and GL if you decide to.</p>

[Skivley101]

<p>Arie wrote: I play more than just this game.   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</p><p>Fine then ... Go play Baldurs Gate ... I knew it was you and Minsc all along.</p>

[Geistman]

<cite>Skivley101 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>^^^ Im in geistman .... But your not exactly clear on what we're in for ...IDK maybe its just the morning fuzyness after drinking last night , but im thinking you need to simplify that above question if it was one.</p><p>ahh crap i got bumped to page 2 ...my arrows mean nothing now ...lol</p></blockquote>In for comparing and working out what the difference between the competing healer classes are (simple information gathering, easy part), saying how much the difference is worth (comparing different mechanics, hard part). This will most probably result in comparing defensive and offensive stuff, which isn't ment to be compared (e.g. what is more worth, 75 AGI or 75 INT, and this well reasoned)It also means, that we need to setup some kind of experimental circumstances. If we continue to say, that in group setup and casual raiding the Warden is as much worth as everyone else, but in high end raiding not, we need to check on the high end raider, i.e. Mastered out, decent equipment and compare that to the appropriate same equipped counterpart. Due to diminishing returns it's a huge difference if you compare the effect of 75 agi and 75 int at a xegonite tank or fully geared Morphling.Arielle, I absoluetly understand your frustraton and I'm betting 10 bugs that this will get me there as well. I have definetly not been very active before the Confusion over the warden post and I hardly read the forums, so I'm missing here the deeper insight and long time experience you got, as well as the experience playing other healers (you got a defiler as well right?). I hope we'll get some review of you when something is posted in the wardens section. Would be a pain to miss a good Warden like you here.I hope this made some stuff clear. What I really think is, that we should stay away from claiming general statements, till we can back them up with actual numbers. I am more like the find ideal system (least influencing factors, naked druid, 0%+ crit, +0healing) and calculate guy (see the healing comparison), but if we target towards a specific comparison of raiders we might want to give them stuff to wear and a group setup.

[Geistman]

uff that will be more then hard. Well just gather the info first to have it on one sheet and then see further. Optimistic Geistman didn't think about the huge difference there is when checking the buffs. I'll try my best though.And no wonder balancing is the hardest issue. I really wonder how devs have any overview about the different effects of the spells. And I really doubt that raidleaders just know anything more then the surface of a class besides their own one. uiuiuiuih well.... pffff

[Sorano]

<cite>Geistman@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>And I really doubt that raidleaders just know anything more then the surface of a class besides their own one. uiuiuiuih well.... pffff</blockquote>Incorrect assumption. A good raid leader needs to not only know exactly what buffs each class brings to a raid, but they also need to know what buffs each class needs in order to perform at their best.

[Geistman]

haha ~27 spells * 24classes ~ 648 spells maybe categorized into 5-7 mayor categories for each warrior/scout/mage/healer makes at least 20 categories with maybe... yeah sure <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />And reading through all the spell descriptions I even can remember some of them (most of them which gave me a huge laughing attack, either cause it's just uber and I just wish I had it, or they are just so ridicioulus that I just wonder what the guys was on when thinking that up, like the Tinkering descriptions) Seriously I can hardly breath no more. Just check on eq2i and go through all the spells listed backwards.Nah anyway, I didn't say they have no clue about it, but it's just really hard and any earns my deepest respect remembering all the exact spells, their values and stats as well how they are used most efficiently. I do know every Raidleader who puts a setup together with brain knows some rules (Troub to mages Dirge to Scouts as easy example) and of course they know much more then i do (I'm focusing on healers here) or has his little own trick, but thats what i call surface. Decisions based on aggregated information, thats typical and it's good that way. Wouldn't make any sense to make it differently. Except if you want to go nuts or your a rainman, which says you already went nuts....Anyway, just letting some steam off here, cause I'm going between absolute frustration and laughing heart attack in a matter of a seconds when comparing the different abilities of the healer classes (just found another heal in the furie's line, so coooool!)

[Sorano]

A raid leader does not need to know every single spell from each of the 24 classes. They just need to know what buffs/debuffs each class brings and what buffs they need to get the most out of each class.

[Fromingo]

yeah and our raidleaders know most of the other spells too.  Believe me there are some people that know the ins/outs of almost every class.  The know very well what classes can offer a raid.

[MullenSkywatcher]

<cite>Skivley101 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Arie wrote: I play more than just this game.   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</p><p>Fine then ... Go play Baldurs Gate ... I knew it was you and Minsc all along.</p></blockquote>Go for the eyes Boo!  GO FOR THE EYES!!  RAAAAAAAAAAAGHHH!  (sorry, flashback over)

[Scigst]

If posts like this screw up my soloability i'm gonna be seriously [Removed for Content] off

[MullenSkywatcher]

<cite>Scigster wrote:</cite><blockquote>If posts like this screw up my soloability i'm gonna be seriously [Removed for Content] off</blockquote>Que?

[Arielle Nightshade]

<cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Skivley101 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Arie wrote: I play more than just this game.   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</p><p>Fine then ... Go play Baldurs Gate ... I knew it was you and Minsc all along.</p></blockquote>Go for the eyes Boo!  GO FOR THE EYES!!  RAAAAAAAAAAAGHHH!  (sorry, flashback over)</blockquote>Clearly, I'll have to wipe my Baldur's Gate toon and go play Hello Kitty, Island Adventure...grumble. 

[Fromingo]

<cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Scigster wrote:</cite><blockquote>If posts like this screw up my soloability i'm gonna be seriously [Removed for Content] off</blockquote>Que?</blockquote>LOL that was pretty much my response.   Let me translate for him though...Que?  =  Huh?

[DwarvesR]

<cite>Elyssa@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geistman@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>And I really doubt that raidleaders just know anything more then the surface of a class besides their own one. uiuiuiuih well.... pffff</blockquote>Incorrect assumption. A good raid leader needs to not only know exactly what buffs each class brings to a raid, but they also need to know what buffs each class needs in order to perform at their best.</blockquote><p>Heh.  I have toons in 2 "casual" raid guilds.  The one's a touch more hardcore in that we're up to being able to clear FTH now, but we're still on EH 1st floor stuck at the Princes and so on, where the 2nd guild barely looks at EoF yet, though we can clear Tarinax without too much trouble there either.  Anyway. . . they're both "casual" in that raid attendance is nice, but not mandatory.</p><p>Even with that, about 3 weeks ago in the 2nd guild I got put on my inquisitor in the MT group for an easy Labs run instead of the level 68 Temp we had along.  I shot the leader a tell asking him why and he replied back "Just need a cleric in the MT group is all, and you're higher level so you're better."  I sent back that as an inquisitor my strength is in melee buffing and he said "Really?  I had no idea.  Guess I just don't play with inquisitors enough."  And he left me in the MT group anyway.  Not that big a deal and we cleared the zone, but still. . . . </p><p>Keep in mind that this is after I've been raiding with him <i>on my inquisitor</i> for over a year.  MAybe it was my fault for not pointing out to him sooner where my skills really were, but since he'd always had me in melee-heavy groups before unless I subbed in the MT group becuz I was the only cleric on the raid. . . </p><p>And I'd always thought of him as a pretty good raid leader.  Oh yeah, he's the warden who always puts himself in the MT group too <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Anyway. . . . more on-topic of the OP -- my warden's 52 now, and while I'm a soloing beast and it feels like I can keep a group healed in my sleepI have all of my skills except the 55, 58, and 65 ancient teachings, and frankly. .   feel pretty buffless and debuffless.  The new lines I'm going to be getting soon will be nice, but nothing really earthshattering either, so. . I doubt I'm ever going to be taking my warden on raids.  Not when I have a coercer, an inquisitor, and a warlock that can be in instead.  Coercer's buffs are so very much desired that I get tells asking me to join raids before I even finish loading in.  The inquisitor is loved just about anywhere, and my warlock isn't quite up to raiding yet, but will be in another week or 2, and the guild she's in is dps-light and healer heavy, so she'll be wanted more there than my fury will.  I just don't see my warden being anything other than a fun little distraction from time to time anymore.  And that's kinda diappointing since the warden's such a blast to play too.</p>

[metacell]

I'm a little puzzled by this discussion, because I've never felt left out of a raid for being a druid.Two clerics can't use their primary heal on the MT, since their reactive heals don't stack.Two shamans can't use their primary heal on the MT, since their wards don't stack.That means the only sane choice for a 3rd MT healer is a druid, preferably a warden, since they have a higher heal per second over a longer period of time. In a way, the warden is the 4th most important character in a raid, after the main tank, shaman and cleric. If the tank goes *splat!* on pull despite the shaman's and cleric's best effort, usually only a druid can give the extra healing that is needed.You could say that druids are the least important healers, but that still gives us the fourth most important role on a raid, after the MT, shaman and cleric. The druid doesn't have to be in the MT group, since only their single-target heals are useful for healing the MT, but they're still very important.Or is it about who's getting the 4th and 5th healer spot? Granted, you could argue that those spots are better filled by a cleric or shaman, if there is a choice. But healers are usually in demand, and beggars can't be choosers.

[Fromingo]

The problem is at higher end mobs on trash 3rd MT healer is not needed as much and many guilds are swapping in more hate transfer so they can clear the zone faster.   Then for hard mobs 1 warden is all that's ever needed unless you're short on healers.  Other healer classes offer more to raids and therefore are more desired to fill healer slots.

[MullenSkywatcher]

<cite>Aquarius@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm a little puzzled by this discussion, because I've never felt left out of a raid for being a druid.Two clerics can't use their primary heal on the MT, since their reactive heals don't stack.Two shamans can't use their primary heal on the MT, since their wards don't stack.That means the only sane choice for a 3rd MT healer is a druid, preferably a warden, since they have a higher heal per second over a longer period of time. In a way, the warden is the 4th most important character in a raid, after the main tank, shaman and cleric. If the tank goes *splat!* on pull despite the shaman's and cleric's best effort, usually only a druid can give the extra healing that is needed.You could say that druids are the least important healers, but that still gives us the fourth most important role on a raid, after the MT, shaman and cleric. The druid doesn't have to be in the MT group, since only their single-target heals are useful for healing the MT, but they're still very important.Or is it about who's getting the 4th and 5th healer spot? Granted, you could argue that those spots are better filled by a cleric or shaman, if there is a choice. But healers are usually in demand, and beggars can't be choosers.</blockquote>You don't need 3 healers in the main tank group, you need hate generators and enough healing to keep him/her up, which is templar + shaman.  Once you have massive hate transfer on the Main Tank, he can hold aggro while the rest of the raid ratchets up the DPS.  More DPS equals mob dying faster, which means you have to block/survive less AoEs.  In EoF, only the AoEs are difficult, the most common being Furious Storm (damage + stifle).Its not that you cant raid with wardens or a 3 healer main tank group.  Its that there is a massive, MASSIVE benefit to setting your raid up with 2 healers plus hate generators in the MT group.  It can take a little while to learn to switch over (group 2-4 healers need to do more to heal the MT), but the benefits mean shaving off a considerable amount of time off raids, and being able to defeat the harder epic mobs.The most common setup for this type of raid is 6 healers, 2 in MT, 2 in Off Tank, and one in the other dps groups.  By playing to the strengths of certain classes, you can make your raid brutally, brutally efficient.  Wardens are left out of this because, we dont debuff, we dont buff well, we dont add significant utility, and other healers heal as well as we do.  The claims of 'Massive Healing' are laughable, because the other healers heal as well or better due to the mechanics of wards > reactive > HoT as well as bringing DPS and Utility along with them.Its gotten bad enough so that of the 6 healers, wardens are the ones that can be left off the raid entirely and not be missed.  That is a raiding imbalance that most of us raiding wardens would like to fix, or else hope that the RoK encounter design plays to our few remaining strengths (AoEs that dont include stifles, elemental instead of arcane aoes, etc.)