New "rules" of this forum...

[Cuz]

"<span class="postbody"> New threads in the "In Testing Feedback" forum should only discuss changes that have not yet gone live."Is there anything in Testing that isn't live? If not, what are the criteria to keep your thread unmoved / unlocked? It seems to be pretty random right now...</span>

[PaganSaint]

Only discussing new to test mechanics, features, items, encounters and quests is my interpretation.

[Gareorn]

Personally, I get tired of having to surf through all the live combat mechanic complaints to see the affects of stuff on test. Especially since there is a forum dedicated to combat discussions.

[Kirstie]

Generally hotfixes go to the Test server before they go live, sometimes only for half a day and sometimes (like this last one) for the weekend.Once we get closer to the GU39 launch you'll see that on Test weeks before it goes live.  The 'new' stuff is usually posted in the Test Update Notes.Hope that helps clear up what's 'new' to Test and not already on live.- K

[Gnobrin]

<p>The issue was that there were some folks that seemed to think that posting here would mean that percieved issues that they have on their "live" server characters would then get some development attention, which is not the case in this forum.  If you have troubles with your character, either /petition the issue so it can get to the development team or use the appropriate class forum so it can then be reviewed.  The majority of the posts that were most recently removed were either speaking of "live" server material or matters of past material that's already been fixed/pushed to live.</p><p>Sorry for the confusion, all!</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p>

[PaganSaint]

The bad thing is, this thread about forums rules has recieved more attention than anything about the game mechanics and issues.Priorities messed up? Maybe.

[Jacien]

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The issue was that there were some folks that seemed to think that posting here would mean that percieved issues that they have on their "live" server characters would then get some development attention, which is not the case in this forum.  If you have troubles with your character, either /petition the issue so it can get to the development team or use the appropriate class forum so it can then be reviewed.  The majority of the posts that were most recently removed were either speaking of "live" server material or matters of past material that's already been fixed/pushed to live.</p><p>Sorry for the confusion, all!</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote>Actually, every single post recently locked and moved was posted during the time of the changes on Test Server, before the changes were pushed to Live. Unfortunately, none of the issues were discussed by Red Names nor were any of the issues resolved. It begs the question, what exactly is the purpose of the "in Testing Feedback" forum if feedback is given, completely ignored by developers, then removed promptly after the changes are pushed to live?

[thecynic315]

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If you have troubles with your character, either /petition the issue so it can get to the development team or use the appropriate class forum so it can then be reviewed. </p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote> Where do we post if the issue is not with our Sub-Class but is with our Class? ie where should BARDS and BRAWLERS post? Most of those issues are based on core design and from the old Arch-type->Class->Sub-Class days. Also if this forum is only for discussing what is on test, then shouldnt we not have the ability to start topics and shouldnt all threads be locked as soon as a GU/Hotfix goes live?

[PaganSaint]

Post under: Learn to Play Your Class.

[Zhephy]

now i know why ppl stop posting here and post to eq2flames.com

[Willias]

Quite frankly it'd be nice if there was a Feedback or "Hot Topic" forum for the bard/monk debates and various other things that people want changed that aren't specifically in testing..I think people make those kinds of threads here because they feel that they're more likely to be read by the developers.

[PaganSaint]

The honest to god truth is, if you want a good chance of seeing Dev/Coder response go post on eq2flames in their general, game specific forums. They are looked at and responded to more than anything on these "official" forums. I'll probably get banned for another period of time for saying that, but its the truth.They also don't put up with this defeatist, closed mind, Brawlers/Bards suck mentality there, be warned.

[Cuz]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>The honest to god truth is, if you want a good chance of seeing Dev/Coder response go post on eq2flames in their general, game specific forums. They are looked at and responded to more than anything on these "official" forums. I'll probably get banned for another period of time for saying that, but its the truth.They also don't put up with this defeatist, closed mind, Brawlers/Bards suck mentality there, be warned.</blockquote>I doubt you get banned for mentioning eq2flames, because as you said, it gets quite a bit of dev traffic. I think you get banned because of your "if you don't agree with me you must suck at your class" attitude.

[tt66]

<cite>Willias@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Quite frankly it'd be nice if there was a Feedback or "Hot Topic" forum for the bard/monk debates and various other things that people want changed that aren't specifically in testing..I think people make those kinds of threads here because they feel that they're more likely to be read by the developers.</blockquote>I'd second this motion. There have been a lot of changes made recently to bruisers (for example), that people would like to discuss and to be frank, there is no real indication that anyone looks in the class forums these days.Things like the bruiser callous-stomp nerf, for example. Something that was changed on the test servers and then made live, without any mention in the game notes at all. Where should we ask questions about that?A similar thing with the combining of the Fear and Mez lines on a single timer. Bruisers have now effectively lost an entire CA line for no discernible reason. This one was mentioned in the notes, but no reason for the change was given. Where do we go to ask why such a change was made? (And, after absolutely no response from asking in the "In Testing Feedback" forum, where do we go to continue asking why once such a change goes live?)The sole contribution I can recall in recent months in either Bruiser or Monk class forums has been Aerelik saying "see that 1% on Epics Dev Fist? Not yours!" and then disappearing without further comment. Not really that helpful.

[Xanrn]

<p>Ah don't you just love hypocrites.</p><p>Pagansaint posts a thread crying about how the Avatar of Mischeif is broken and then throws a wobbily when people tell him L2P. Then starts demanding what experience people have raiding Avatars.</p><p>So Mr PS what exactly is your experiance with Brawlers and Bards?</p>

[PaganSaint]

<cite>Cuz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>The honest to god truth is, if you want a good chance of seeing Dev/Coder response go post on eq2flames in their general, game specific forums. They are looked at and responded to more than anything on these "official" forums. I'll probably get banned for another period of time for saying that, but its the truth.They also don't put up with this defeatist, closed mind, Brawlers/Bards suck mentality there, be warned.</blockquote>I doubt you get banned for mentioning eq2flames, because as you said, it gets quite a bit of dev traffic. I think you get banned because of your "if you don't agree with me you must suck at your class" attitude.</blockquote>No, but for anyone who can look you see people asking for nerfs because either of the class types mentioned are doing tremendously more DPS now than before, while others are complaining that they can't break some sub 1.5k DPS number with those same classes. If that constitutes as a "if you don't agree with me..." philosophy then I'm sorry, they do suck.<cite>Xanrn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ah don't you just love hypocrites.</p><p>Pagansaint posts a thread crying about how the Avatar of Mischeif is broken and then throws a wobbily when people tell him L2P. Then starts demanding what experience people have raiding Avatars.</p><p>So Mr PS what exactly is your experiance with Brawlers and Bards?</p></blockquote>Killing avatars with both sub classes of each type. Whats yours?

[Sapphirius]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Willias@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Quite frankly it'd be nice if there was a Feedback or "Hot Topic" forum for the bard/monk debates and various other things that people want changed that aren't specifically in testing..I think people make those kinds of threads here because they feel that they're more likely to be read by the developers.</blockquote>I'd second this motion. There have been a lot of changes made recently to bruisers (for example), that people would like to discuss and to be frank, there is no real indication that anyone looks in the class forums these days.Things like the bruiser callous-stomp nerf, for example. Something that was changed on the test servers and then made live, without any mention in the game notes at all. Where should we ask questions about that?A similar thing with the combining of the Fear and Mez lines on a single timer. Bruisers have now effectively lost an entire CA line for no discernible reason. This one was mentioned in the notes, but no reason for the change was given. Where do we go to ask why such a change was made? (And, after absolutely no response from asking in the "In Testing Feedback" forum, where do we go to continue asking why once such a change goes live?)The sole contribution I can recall in recent months in either Bruiser or Monk class forums has been Aerelik saying "see that 1% on Epics Dev Fist? Not yours!" and then disappearing without further comment. Not really that helpful.</blockquote>Personally, I avoid SOE class forums like the plague. Most of the time, all I see are posts going, "WAH! SOE ruined my class! /wrist" I happen to like my monk. Sure, there are things I'm not happy about, but what class out there is perfect? None.

[Amalthea]

Keeping the thread on-topic and hopefully providing a little more explanation...There are dozens of forums to choose from when deciding where to post your issue, and this particular forum is not the one you need when it comes to bringing attention to a change that's already gone to the live servers.  For instance, if your issue is with a specific class, it should be posted in the Class-specific forum; if it involves more than one class, depending on the issue, it could go in either "Combat Discussion" or "Spells, Abilities, and Combat Arts."There are lots of mods, admins, and devs that do browse the various forums on a regular basis, so don't feel as though your posts go unseen; however, the best way to bring an issue to the devs' attention is to use the /feedback command in-game.  They definitely see those.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Vatec]

One of the main reasons people post in the "wrong" places is because they have come to believe that they will get no response in the "right" places.  This goes for both player =and= developer feedback.  Both the /feedback mechanism and the class forums suffer from the perception that they are black holes:  feedback goes in and nothing, not even sound or light, comes back out.Last I checked, some of the class forums haven't seen a developer post in, well, months.  For those players interested enough to visit those specific boards, the lack of developer response is not an encouraging sign.Another reason for "misposting" is the desire for a broader audience.  While a certain issue or request might =seem= class-specific, related issues and creative solutions might not surface without exposure on a wider venue.  Class boards, in particular, suffer from a great deal of self-selection:  players only check them out if they have some interest in the specific class.In short, while I appreciate the need for some sort of order and organization, it is possible to overdo it.  For example, if a thread is combat-related, it belongs on the Combat board, not hidden away in a class board, even if the vast majority of affected players are from a single class.  Without feedback from players of other classes, it is very easy for groupthink to take over such a discussion.That being said, reserving the In Testing forum for discussion of changes that are currently undergoing testing is clearly logical.  This forum is the place to [I cannot control my vocabulary] bad ideas in the bud =before= they go live (and become that much harder to get fixed).  Obviously, this forum will serve its purpose far better if it isn't cluttered with threads on completely unrelated topics....EDIT:  Since when did the word N I P become a forbidden word?  Ludicrous.  The derivative of the index of my frustration with the SOE forums is +1000.<span class="me">[Removed for Content]</span><span class="homno">1</span> <span class="pronset"> <img src="http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif" border="0" alt="" />  <img src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png" border="0" alt="" /><a href="https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 Fnip" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><img src="http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif" border="0" alt="" /></a>  <span class="show_ipapr"><span class="prondelim">/</span><span class="[Removed for Content]">nɪp</span><span class="prondelim">/</span> <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pronunciation Key</a><span class="pron_toggle"><span class="prondelim"> - </span><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Show Spelled Pronunciation</a></span></span><span class="show_spellpr"><span class="prondelim">[</span><span class="[Removed for Content]">[Removed for Content]</span><span class="prondelim">]</span> <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pronunciation Key</a><span class="pron_toggle"><span class="prondelim"> - </span><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Show IPA Pronunciation</a></span></span> </span><span class="pg">verb, </span><span class="secondary-bf">nipped, </span><span class="secondary-bf">[Removed for Content]·ping, </span><span class="pg">noun </span><div ><span class="pg">–verb (used with object) </span> <span class="pg">–verb (used without object) </span> <span class="pg">–noun </span> <span class="sectionLabel">—Idioms</span> </div><hr /><div >[Origin: <span class="rom-inline">1350–1400; </span>ME <i>nyppe</i> to pinch < ON <i>hnippa</i> to poke, thrust<img src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png" border="0" alt="" />] </div>

[tt66]

Ok. So, Devastation Fist is still bugged, (or was introduced live in a significantly different way to how it was on the test servers.. which rather questions the point of test servers in the first place...), and there is a nice thread about it in the "Spells, Abilities and Combat Arts" forum.As it appears to still not be addressed, what do we do? There is now a mention of this problem in the following forums :<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=382146" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Bruiser</a><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=120&topic_id=376920" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Monk</a><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=382145" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Spells, Abilities and Combat Arts</a><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=379833" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">In Testing Feedback</a><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=381800" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Developer Roundtable</a>I have yet to see a single Dev response eithera) acknowledging there is a problem orb) explaining it is working as intended orc) saying they will look into it.

[Bozidar]

What about the PvP servers, where "live" is really "Testing", since we no longer have a pvp test server?

[Amalthea]

Posting in the forums isn't necessarily the best way to report a bug or suggest a change; it is, however, the best way to get feedback from the community to determine whether the general consensus is that, yes, something's not quite right.The /bug and /feedback tools in-game go straight to the devs for review, whereas the issue probably won't solicit a response on the forums no matter how many posts there are on the subject.  The devs can't see or respond to every "It's borked!" thread, since, y'know, they're busy developing and stuff.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />As for PvP issues, we have a beautiful late-model "PvP Discussion" forum with power everything.  /thumbsup

[MaCloud1032]

<cite>Amalthea wrote:</cite><blockquote>As for PvP issues, we have a beautiful late-model "PvP Discussion" forum with power everything.  /thumbsup</blockquote><p>It needs a cup holder and a server for us to test on.  Having us do a /dual on the new test server wont work.  The /dual is on PvE rule sets.</p>

[Bozidar]

<cite>Amalthea wrote:</cite><blockquote>Posting in the forums isn't necessarily the best way to report a bug or suggest a change; it is, however, the best way to get feedback from the community to determine whether the general consensus is that, yes, something's not quite right.The /bug and /feedback tools in-game go straight to the devs for review, whereas the issue probably won't solicit a response on the forums no matter how many posts there are on the subject.  The devs can't see or respond to every "It's borked!" thread, since, y'know, they're busy developing and stuff.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />As for PvP issues, we have a beautiful late-model "PvP Discussion" forum with power everything.  /thumbsup</blockquote><p>So someone's going to post the pvp changes in the test update notes next time, or even the game update notes, and get feedback from the community?  /thumbsup</p><p>Yep, that works better than letting it go live unannounced and hell breaking loose, much better plan. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[liveja]

<cite>Amalthea wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are lots of mods, admins, and devs that do browse the various forums on a regular basis, so don't feel as though your posts go unseen</blockquote><p>Whether or not the posts are SEEN is not the point.</p><p>The point is whether or not they are RESPONDED to, with information from devs saying "Yea, we've looked into this issue, & here's the deal", which -- I don't know, maybe I'm wrong here -- seems to be the point of a community message board that Devs actually look at.</p><p>The whole problem, Amalthea, is that players have the impression the Devs simply don't care. More feedback from Devs would go a LONG way towards dispelling that impression.</p><p>& yes, the Devs are busy developing stuff; we all know that. So maybe it would be nice if there were such things as "Community Liasons" who get info from the Devs regarding certain "hot button" issues, & then come back to the forums & explain things to the community.</p>

[PaganSaint]

It would also be a wrong move if those Liasons did more than just post information and just say, "I don't know, I have to ask" or "I can't say, I have to ask" or any such commentary.They would be there for a back and forth dialogue, not just as another post bot that throws information out to the masses.

[sexieladie]

I agree.  Its the fact that we feel like our issues are not really being addressed because of the months that do go by without dev postings of any kind in certain forum.  I think the liasons would be a good start if not a permanent solution.

[Noaani]

<p>To me, the simple fact that there is a developer and a community relations rep replying in this thread, yet there are numerous issues with multiple threads each that have been going on for months (years!), that have no developer response, is kind of odd.</p><p>Like others, I would love to see some sort of response to issues the game has, even if it is in the manner Lockeye posted about the perceived issue with assassin achievements. Let the players know that its being looked in to, its working as intended, or it will go off to someome relevent to look at in the near future, who will then post on an outcome or look for more info</p><p>Rather than a direct response from devs, some of the topics and issues in the game, I would think, would be better addressed by QA. Does EQ2 even have a QA rep on the boards?</p><p>If these are the people looking in to the issues, and then handing them off to developers to fix (often with a recomendation from what I have heard), it would only make sence that these people are the ones that should be posting on current issues on live servers that are not yet specifically assinged to a developer.</p><p>The other catch with that is that these forums are, for a variety of reasons, not particularly suited to this sort of communication. I would assume that is one reason a few developers also use EQ2flames to get info on issues, and such.</p>

[tt66]

<cite>Amalthea wrote:</cite><blockquote>Posting in the forums isn't necessarily the best way to report a bug or suggest a change; it is, however, the best way to get feedback from the community to determine whether the general consensus is that, yes, something's not quite right.The /bug and /feedback tools in-game go straight to the devs for review, whereas the issue probably won't solicit a response on the forums no matter how many posts there are on the subject.  The devs can't see or respond to every "It's borked!" thread, since, y'know, they're busy developing and stuff.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>Well, I've taken this advice to heart and started /bugging each time Devestation Fist fails on a heroic named. I very much doubt it will make a difference, but one must soldier on.Of course, had the Devs not taken it upon themselves to change it at the last minute, this wouldn't be an issue. What exactly is the point of having a test server, if you're going to change things before making it live?

[Cuz]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amalthea wrote:</cite><blockquote>Posting in the forums isn't necessarily the best way to report a bug or suggest a change; it is, however, the best way to get feedback from the community to determine whether the general consensus is that, yes, something's not quite right.The /bug and /feedback tools in-game go straight to the devs for review, whereas the issue probably won't solicit a response on the forums no matter how many posts there are on the subject.  The devs can't see or respond to every "It's borked!" thread, since, y'know, they're busy developing and stuff.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></blockquote>Well, I've taken this advice to heart and started /bugging each time Devestation Fist fails on a heroic named. I very much doubt it will make a difference, but one must soldier on.Of course, had the Devs not taken it upon themselves to change it at the last minute, this wouldn't be an issue. What exactly is the point of having a test server, if you're going to change things before making it live? </blockquote>You might want to /feedback it instead. And you linked a few threads with the DF changes, stick to them could you?I think a few people have stated what I wanted to get to originally. If the general consensus is that the class forums are the abyss, maybe it would be time to try to salvage them a tinsy bit? A few posts here and there would do that.

[Fromingo]

<cite>Amalthea wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are lots of mods, admins, and devs that do browse the various forums on a regular basis, so don't feel as though your posts go unseen; however, the best way to bring an issue to the devs' attention is to use the /feedback command in-game.  They definitely see those.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>/feedback is useless unless we can discuss things on forums and get a huge amount of people to /feedback the change, and even then it sucks because we don't see a response from a dev so it feels like a black hole.  You can't discuss things in feedback.   Dev's just need to learn to start responding to posts or create a general forum rep who will write our issues down, attend dev meetings, then come feedback some response on these boards.  We used to have that,  I don't see that anymore.   And there's been some hot topics,  like 50+ pages of hot topics yet 0 red names.  Seriously ban me if you wish but part of my monthly fee goes into customer service so please earn it SOE.

[Vonotar]

<cite>Pedigru@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The issue was that there were some folks that seemed to think that posting here would mean that percieved issues that they have on their "live" server characters would then get some development attention, which is not the case in this forum.  If you have troubles with your character, either /petition the issue so it can get to the development team or use the appropriate class forum so it can then be reviewed.  The majority of the posts that were most recently removed were either speaking of "live" server material or matters of past material that's already been fixed/pushed to live.</p><p>Sorry for the confusion, all!</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote>Actually, every single post recently locked and moved was posted during the time of the changes on Test Server, before the changes were pushed to Live. Unfortunately, none of the issues were discussed by Red Names nor were any of the issues resolved. It begs the question, what exactly is the purpose of the "in Testing Feedback" forum if feedback is given, completely ignored by developers, then removed promptly after the changes are pushed to live?</blockquote>GnobrinCan we respectfully request that when an update goes live, the respective In Testing threads are locked with a footnote from either a Dev or yourself/Grim thanking members for there feedback (and any other information/statement you wish to give on the matter).This would be better than removing or moving the threads.