Worried about tank loot in RoK... [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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TuinalOfTheNexus

09-24-2007, 12:06 AM

We've been grinding TTR for a while, and it seems SoE have finally got raid itemisation decent for all classes - except tanks.What worries me is they're so out of touch with tank gear, the actual design philosophy behind it seems flawed. And I can see them carrying on into RoK with the approach.The most obvious points that spring to mind are:<ol><li>Taunt procs. These are perhaps the only item effect of absolutely zero value soloing; rather unfair (compare the solo value of crystal gifts, more dps, or free heals), but not a problem, since anyone playing a Guard long since rolled an alt to solo. But their value in grouping and raiding is worthless too. A 250-hate proc twice a minute adds up to precisely jack all, when your average autoattack is 2500 every 3 seconds. These items could proc a hate list position increase and not be overpowered compared to the mage/scout drops.</li><li>Scout loot is just plain better than Fighter loot. In short, I'd take scout items from TTR over Fighter ones for my tank anyday, had they not enforced class restrictions on the set items. We do not, as a rule, care about more +def or +parry, particularly when we can cap it with ease and the diminishing returns system makes it worthless anyway. The tank cloak from TTR is a total joke; it has absolutely nothing to merit wearing it over a cloak of flames or even cape of the vikomt. Which means everyone ends up fighting over the scout cloak with 4% crits and power regen.</li><li>Lack of appreciation that mit/resists are worthless. Again, the diminishing returns system you implemented at EoF launch makes these stats pointless. Consequently, we don't care if an item has 50 more mit anymore, or 1k to a certain resist. The game is ruled by DPS at the moment since it's so easy. If equipment doesn't give us DPS or a marked survivability boost it's of little value. Which brings me to the next point.</li><li>+block chance and stoneskin procs are ill-thought out effects that will not scale correctly in RoK. Anything adding a flat % uncontested avoidance is not scalable. Either RoK will have loot that offers no upgrade with respect to avoidance, or tanks will start building up ridiculous levels of uncontested avoidance that can only be balanced by making extremely hard-hitting (with unavoidable spike damage) mobs and mitigation even less significant.</li></ol>How to fix this? Well assuming actually revisiting the TTR loot is out of the question, the whole avoidance and mitigation system is a convoluted mess. Since total overhauls seem to be a lynchpin of current dev philosophy I'd like to see a reworking of this system that will actually motivate tanks into wanting items with +def/parry or mitigation/resists. How about items that help you avoid debuffs rather than relying on healers? And for christ's sake stop with the crutch of lazy design that is the 1-shot, "you may as well tank in cloth" debuff (eg. mayong's touch, invalidate). These debuffs should send you down the mit/avoidance curve so gear actually makes a difference, rather than sticking everything at 0.More importantly, tanks need to be considered equal with scouts when it comes to gear improving dps. Otherwise we head down a road where aggro control gets harder and harder as gear improves, and eventually hits a threshold where it's no longer worth Scouts/Mages upgrading their stuff because they need to hold back on DPS.

Kaycerzan

09-24-2007, 03:11 PM

"More importantly, tanks need to be considered equal with scouts when it comes to gear improving dps. Otherwise we head down a road where aggro control gets harder and harder as gear improves, and eventually hits a threshold where it's no longer worth Scouts/Mages upgrading their stuff because they need to hold back on DPS.""Taunt procs. These are perhaps the only item effect of absolutely zero value soloing; rather unfair (compare the solo value of crystal gifts, more dps, or free heals), but not a problem, since anyone playing a Guard long since rolled an alt to solo. But their value in grouping and raiding is worthless too. A 250-hate proc twice a minute adds up to precisely jack all, when your average autoattack is 2500 every 3 seconds. These items could proc a hate list position increase and not be overpowered compared to the mage/scout drops."You counter your own argument there. They give you gear to *help* your aggro, and you call it crap because you can't solo with it. It's designed to give you ~some~ more hate. Aggro management is the responsibility of everyone from the tank on down. It's the tanks job to do the best he can, lifting as many restrictions from the other classes. By the way, a necromancer is probably the only one crazy enough to use a crystal gift while soloing. The thing consumes like 800 health. For most casters that's like 15%. You'd have to be desperate."More importantly, tanks need to be considered equal with scouts when it comes to gear improving dps. Otherwise we head down a road where aggro control gets harder and harder as gear improves, and eventually hits a threshold where it's no longer worth Scouts/Mages upgrading their stuff because they need to hold back on DPS.""Scout loot is just plain better than Fighter loot. In short, I'd take scout items from TTR over Fighter ones for my tank anyday, had they not enforced class restrictions on the set items. We do not, as a rule, care about more +def or +parry, particularly when we can cap it with ease and the diminishing returns system makes it worthless anyway. The tank cloak from TTR is a total joke; it has absolutely nothing to merit wearing it over a cloak of flames or even cape of the vikomt. Which means everyone ends up fighting over the scout cloak with 4% crits and power regen."Fighters are not intended to be dps classes. Most guardians right now, due to their AAs, are able to hop onto the low end of the parse during a raid. Does it help with aggro? Certainly. But they aren't a dps class, they shouldn't be getting "scout dps type" gear.. at least not things made solely for them. +(defensive skills) items are hardly worthless. You're speaking from the viewpoint of someone raiding the last zone put into the game prior to a new expansion. If you're bursting the cap then yeah, it's going to be useless to get more.... however, before you were at that cap you wouldn't make that argument, and nobody's going to make that argument when they're getting wailed on by even higher level mobs in RoK. "Lack of appreciation that mit/resists are worthless. Again, the diminishing returns system you implemented at EoF launch makes these stats pointless. Consequently, we don't care if an item has 50 more mit anymore, or 1k to a certain resist. The game is ruled by DPS at the moment since it's so easy. If equipment doesn't give us DPS or a marked survivability boost it's of little value. Which brings me to the next point.""+block chance and stoneskin procs are ill-thought out effects that will not scale correctly in RoK. Anything adding a flat % uncontested avoidance is not scalable. Either RoK will have loot that offers no upgrade with respect to avoidance, or tanks will start building up ridiculous levels of uncontested avoidance that can only be balanced by making extremely hard-hitting (with unavoidable spike damage) mobs and mitigation even less significant."Ask any brawler if mit is worthless. Ask any dps class trying to balance their dps gear against resists vurses an AoE mob if resists are worthless. You'll hear a totally different story to what you're spouting here. This game is not ruled by dps (see next counterpoint). +Block and Stoneskin procs are designed to give the healers a bit of reprieve. Not a lot, but a bit. I highly doubt your prediction of an all-avoidance tanking system is going to come true. "And for christ's sake stop with the crutch of lazy design that is the 1-shot, "you may as well tank in cloth" debuff (eg. mayong's touch, invalidate). These debuffs should send you down the mit/avoidance curve so gear actually makes a difference, rather than sticking everything at 0."If you attempted to tank these mobs in cloth, you'd be dead long before they got to use these abilities. I suppose that might solve the whole problem, you'll just never have to deal with it. However, as I said, this game is not ruled by dps, this game is ruled by tactics. Failing to cure your tank of these 1-shots (note how they're never uncurable) is what causes them to die from it. It's to keep events from turning into tank + healers + dps = win scenario. Any nitwit can win a fight if it's just a matter of killing him before he kills you. There aren't intended to be a debuff similar to what players have, they're intended to be part of the event that must be overcome to succeed. -----------------------------------------In the end, I can't even tell where you're arguing from. Your claims make it sound like you're raging against the defensive glass ceiling at the end game in raids, but you're unhappy because that same gear isn't providing you with top end dps. You see the itemization as poor because what upgrades are left to you are the quality of what you're already wearing..... at the end of the tier, this is what happens. You seem to believe that once you've reached the breaking point on dimishing returns for Mit / Resists they should have opened you up to a whole new world of items that are designed for dpsers but made available to you, because as a defensive tank, obviously the next step isn't to think about what's available and rework your armor so you can fit in some dps without sacrificing much, if anything, but to simply have all kinds of +(attack skill) high dps equipment thrown at you for maxing out your defensive glass ceiling. Tanks do NOT need to be considered equal to scouts when it comes to gear improving dps. Simply because, they are not the same. DPS should not be the key to tanks keeping aggro, and if it is then we need to revisit the agression system again, not jack tanks up a dps tier. Aggro control will get harder as scout / mage gear improves. That's the dynamic of the class you've chosen - your 'job' isn't to stand there and take hits. You have to control as much of the aggro as you can, so that the mob doesn't pingpong around killing everyone else.

Hardain

09-24-2007, 04:09 PM

No sure does it matter, but RoK is made by same team that made KoS, EoF was made by another team. I have quite high hopes for T8 raiding, and expansion in overall.

09-24-2007, 06:27 PM

I don't really care about the loot progression in RoK. I just want fun zones and challenging encounters.

Tae

09-24-2007, 09:24 PM

Reading threads by people raiding on PvM servers is so alien to me. I can't understand how any of these zones can possibly be easy, but then again we don't have access to every single class like you do. All I hope for in RoK is that they've taken into account that we'd like to raid sometimes too, but we can't have the zones set up like EoF where without certain classes that we just can't take, it's going to be hard. Many raid guides specify to use a coercer - how's Qeynos going to do that? I guess I'm just praying for more Labs style zones. Reasonable loot that's decent in PvP and you can do it without a perfectly balanced raid. Who cares about the super high end if most people on my server have no way of getting there other than going exile?

Kaycerzan

09-24-2007, 11:44 PM

Yes please, more zones with high success rates for good equipment, because the PvPers choose not to get along.I'd really like to throw some snide remarks at you, but I'll refrain for now, and simply state that the game should not be tailored to the playstyle of people on 2 or 3 servers because they like open PvP as a way of life and can't group with 30% of the classes in the game for it.

TuinalOfTheNexus

09-24-2007, 11:49 PM

<cite>(I'm actually surprised someone disagreed) </cite><cite></cite><cite>Kaycerzan wrote:</cite><blockquote>You counter your own argument there. They give you gear to *help* your aggro, and you call it crap because you can't solo with it. It's designed to give you ~some~ more hate. Aggro management is the responsibility of everyone from the tank on down. It's the tanks job to do the best he can, lifting as many restrictions from the other classes. By the way, a necromancer is probably the only one crazy enough to use a crystal gift while soloing. The thing consumes like 800 health. For most casters that's like 15%. You'd have to be desperate.As I thought I tried to point out, you really can't appreciate how small these procs are in the grand scheme of things. To a raid MT, a 250 taunt 1.8 times a minute is a joke. As a side note on crystal gifts, I'm not sure if you play a mage, but a decent one will have the proc gear (e.g. staff of spectral fury) or potions to heal quite effectively while root/nuking. Ultimately, the point is, caster raid gear is making classes already good at soloing even better, whilst taunt proc stuff and fighter loot in general is rather useless.Fighters are not intended to be dps classes. Most guardians right now, due to their AAs, are able to hop onto the low end of the parse during a raid. Does it help with aggro? Certainly. But they aren't a dps class, they shouldn't be getting "scout dps type" gear.. at least not things made solely for them. +(defensive skills) items are hardly worthless. You're speaking from the viewpoint of someone raiding the last zone put into the game prior to a new expansion. If you're bursting the cap then yeah, it's going to be useless to get more.... however, before you were at that cap you wouldn't make that argument, and nobody's going to make that argument when they're getting wailed on by even higher level mobs in RoK.In the current game, you cannot hold aggro if you cannot DPS. You seem to gloss over the point that if scouts continue to get great DPS items (like proc double attack), and tanks don't, then the gap between them in terms of hate generation will increase. I suppose you think taunt procs will fill this gap, eh? Then there's the fact typically only 1 fighter in a raid is tanking most of the time. If fighters can't do decent dps, then they're mostly useless.Ask any brawler if mit is worthless. Ask any dps class trying to balance their dps gear against resists vurses an AoE mob if resists are worthless. You'll hear a totally different story to what you're spouting here. This game is not ruled by dps (see next counterpoint). +Block and Stoneskin procs are designed to give the healers a bit of reprieve. Not a lot, but a bit. I highly doubt your prediction of an all-avoidance tanking system is going to come true. Clarification: When I say tank loot I mean plate tank loot. Sorry for any confusion.Our DPS classes don't balance resists versus AEs. They used to, before EoF, but their gear + the diminishing returns curve means for the most part they have a 1-set fits all approach. This isn't because they're uber geared, but because they've learnt from experience 4k resists or 8k resists don't impact their survivability. The only reason to wear resist gear is if you're just starting to raid and/or don't have a clue about game mechanics. Also in EoF the emphasis is very much on avoiding rather than soaking AEs.If you attempted to tank these mobs in cloth, you'd be dead long before they got to use these abilities. I suppose that might solve the whole problem, you'll just never have to deal with it. However, as I said, this game is not ruled by dps, this game is ruled by tactics. Failing to cure your tank of these 1-shots (note how they're never uncurable) is what causes them to die from it. It's to keep events from turning into tank + healers + dps = win scenario. Any nitwit can win a fight if it's just a matter of killing him before he kills you. There aren't intended to be a debuff similar to what players have, they're intended to be part of the event that must be overcome to succeed. You are perhaps not that experienced in raiding? I have tanked in cloth, and I wasn't dead before I got to use the abilities - because mit is meaningless. In fact, my usual setup includes Underworld Legplates (T5 armor, less mit than T7 leather), mastercrafted str/agi rings, and quite often bits of leather or chain with crit%. And, like all raid tanks, I use a buckler not a tower shield 99% of the time (though I've experimented with a 2H which also works well). Actually when tanking trash about half my slots are legendary/treasured, whilst fabled stuff sits in bags waiting for rare outings against nameds.-----------------------------------------In the end, I can't even tell where you're arguing from. Your claims make it sound like you're raging against the defensive glass ceiling at the end game in raids, but you're unhappy because that same gear isn't providing you with top end dps. You see the itemization as poor because what upgrades are left to you are the quality of what you're already wearing..... at the end of the tier, this is what happens. You seem to believe that once you've reached the breaking point on dimishing returns for Mit / Resists they should have opened you up to a whole new world of items that are designed for dpsers but made available to you, because as a defensive tank, obviously the next step isn't to think about what's available and rework your armor so you can fit in some dps without sacrificing much, if anything, but to simply have all kinds of +(attack skill) high dps equipment thrown at you for maxing out your defensive glass ceiling. Tanks do NOT need to be considered equal to scouts when it comes to gear improving dps. Simply because, they are not the same. DPS should not be the key to tanks keeping aggro, and if it is then we need to revisit the agression system again, not jack tanks up a dps tier. Aggro control will get harder as scout / mage gear improves. That's the dynamic of the class you've chosen - your 'job' isn't to stand there and take hits. You have to control as much of the aggro as you can, so that the mob doesn't pingpong around killing everyone else. I still don't see your logic with DPS gear being unavailable to tanks. As I've said it makes additional tanks on the raid rather useless if they're meatshields with no other function. In most zones the main DPS gear (i.e. weapons) are available to all classes, and it's just in TTR this trend seems to have started. I don't see how you can justify a loot system that increases the DPS and subsequently aggro gap between scouts and tanks as gear improves; it ultimately means scouts are pointlessly upgrading gear because their higher DPS can't be supported by the raid. And telling the tank to learn2play is a lame argument.I think what baffles me the most is you say my job isn't just "to stand there and take hits", but also tell me DPS shouldn't be key to keeping aggro. What do you suggest- I stand there with tower shield out and spam my 2(!) taunts, waiting for all hell to break loose as soon as reinforcement expires? Oh, wait, I have that 5 hate / sec from my taunt proc gear! That's gonna hold a brig doing 3000+ hate / sec np.Until you've tanked a raid with high-parsing DPS classes and it's the coercer's night off (or any class that's required for the perfect MT group - god forbid there's no dirge), I don't think you can appreciate how hard it can be. You need to blend the CA cycling and autoattack timing of a scout, with a constant awareness of your own health bar, and do this while positioning and pulling every encounter and leading 23 people. You screw up DPSing and people die as you lose aggro. You screw up watching your health and you die, probably wiping the raid. You screw up pulling raid wipes. You screw up positioning and DPS can't do their job. Did I mention you're also the guy that gets hit by every stun, stifle and debuff in the zone (and usually during the pull)? I'd say I'm biased but I'm not - I've played mages, scouts and priests in raids and tanking is simply hardest. To suggest it needs to be made even harder as the raid gears up, by gimping our DPS with awful loot upgrades, so the scouts can feel better about themselves, is ridiculous. Anyway, I've gone off on a tangent here so I'll stop rambling...</blockquote>

PaganSaint

09-25-2007, 12:39 AM

Taunt procs are the worst possible proc you can put on an item for a tank.They are like Flowing Thought, but for Aggro.There is not a single taunt proc item that generates more than 8, eight, Hate per Second.Congratulations you can hold an extra 8 DPS compared to what you could before. Better CA timing, a +12 Damage adornment, tweaked buffs, any of those will benefit you more.

Noaani

09-27-2007, 01:38 PM

The OP has a point.Take a look at where the game is now (in terms of raids). A tank is able to hold aggro on mobs, but only just. Any deciently geared DPS class with a good player behind it will be able to pull aggro from any tank at almost any point in any fight they wish (they dont, because they are good players).The fact that so many DPS classes are so close to pulling aggro is a good thing, for now.However, if RoK continues with fighter loot that increases survivability, and mage/scout gear that increases DPS, the fine balance we have now will be toppled over, with DPS classes needing to hold back even more than we are now, making all our shiney new DPS gear worthless.If a tank is holding a constant 2k hate, and all of the DPS classes are DPS'ing at 1.8k, an increase of 300 DPS to any given DPS class, without an increase to the tanks hate, is bad.Items that have a chance to increase your position on a hate list are as pointless as +8 hate per second procs, as the vast majority of procs will happen while you are on top of the hate list, thus they will do nothing. On the rare occasion that you do not have aggro on a mob, you will not sit there waiting for your weapon to proc in order for you to be moved up 1 position on the hate list. If you do, you will re-gain hate due to the loss of life of the DPS class that pulled.The only effects I can think of (off the top of my head) that will have an actual benifit for raid tanks in terms of holding aggro, are taunt/damage procs that trigger 6+ times a minute, or activatable items that increase hate by a large amount, increase position on the hate list by 2 - 3, or do a large amount of damage.

Supp

09-27-2007, 04:06 PM

Im sorry, but this thread is coming off as a whine to me. Every class has intended procs on their equipment. I'm a primary mage class. Just finding gear that procs heals, wards, power or dmg on hostile spells is an exercise in frustration. And when you find one, it's always 1.8 times a minute for an overall small amount. To compensate for this, you load up on that type of gear to increase how much of a benefit youre getting and/or increase your proc chance by having a props spec'd warlock in your group, or a templar that has something similar. I believe a mystic can do the same thing. I call that stacking the deck to actually start the benefits of the loadout you have at the moment, and it does add up to quite a bit, something that SOE is no doubt keenly aware of. Yes, taunt proc'ing gear is absolutely important, maybe not to a topped off MT, but an offtank or a group tank will be pleased with such equipment. Mit/stoneskin gear is critical to brawlers and SK's. Again, you cannot just put on one piece to see the result you want. You have to put together a gear set and increase your proc chance if you can. I have a battlemage spec'd warlock (high mit) that was a lot of trouble to assemble. She could not take dmg or regenerate her health in any reasonable amount before the AA switch and gear change that I spent about 30p arranging. But now she is incredible. I am truely dismayed to see a warrior class feeling that they deserve scout class dps boosts. Guardians hold aggro the best. That is their purpose. Zerks are not far behind and their dps is already cracky. Swashbucklers can be fantastic tanks and great solo'ers. Perhaps that is more for you.

Noaani

09-27-2007, 07:12 PM

<cite>Supple wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Im sorry, but this thread is coming off as a whine to me. Every class has intended procs on their equipment. I'm a primary mage class. Just finding gear that procs heals, wards, power or dmg on hostile spells is an exercise in frustration. And when you find one, it's always 1.8 times a minute for an overall small amount. To compensate for this, you load up on that type of gear to increase how much of a benefit youre getting and/or increase your proc chance by having a props spec'd warlock in your group, or a templar that has something similar. I believe a mystic can do the same thing. I call that stacking the deck to actually start the benefits of the loadout you have at the moment, and it does add up to quite a bit, something that SOE is no doubt keenly aware of. </blockquote>The problem is, as a wizard, if i get an item with a 1.8 times a minute proc for 450 - 850 damage, over the course of a zonewide parse, it will average 950 - 1k damage per hit, due to crits and debuffs.Hate procs, on the other hand, do not crit, and do not benifit from debuffs. Since 1 point of damage = 1 point of hate, in order for a hate item to be as effective as a damage proc item for a DPS class, it needs to be almost twice as strong. As it stands now, hate proc'ing items are significantly lower in value than damage proc items.While on a mage, proc items can add up to ~500 DPS (or more, for some classes), fighters have no way to make that up with hate procs.In order for an item to match the BCG (a simple to get item that every caster in the game should have), tanks would need a belt that procs 1k hate 1.8 times a minute (assuming the tank has a templar with blessings and luck of the dirge, if not, double that number). Also, just as a point, in order for a tank to make up the hate i get from +100 spell damage, they would need to either get ~ +250 hate to all taunts, or +35 to all CAs.This is not an issue that is unique to RoK, it happens with every advancement in every game. In order for DPS classes to get better on raids, they need to do more DPS. They have a single line of advancement through which they determine how well they are performing as individual players, and as a class as a whole.In order for tanks to advance, they need to equally match the DPS output of their top DPS classes with hate generation, but they also have the added progression path of survivability.So, while us DPS classes only have a single path of (worthwhile) progression, one that we tend to min/max in an almost obsessive manner, tanks need to find a way to match that min/max'ing, while still maintaining a high rate of survivability.Honestly, it makes me glad i am a wizard who doesn't need to think about things like that.

Supp

09-27-2007, 07:42 PM

I tend to agree, but a 450-850 dmg range is atypical for a proc. Usually its 250-500. The BCG is not a good example. Much like Grizz's staff, it is an easy to obtain item with crazy ability. Peppered throughout the game, you'll find such oddities, and not specific to just mages. The crits and spell dmg complicate the issue. I would be happy to conceed increasing the taunt amount of taunt proc'ing gear. Typically, it's about 500 when it should be 1000. However, that's not what the poster appears to be asking for. It sounds like he wants to swap taunt procs for dmg procs so that he can solo better in the guise of better overall raid tanking ability. That's what's getting me.

TuinalOfTheNexus

09-27-2007, 08:14 PM

<cite>Supple wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, taunt proc'ing gear is absolutely important, maybe not to a topped off MT, but an offtank or a group tank will be pleased with such equipment. Mit/stoneskin gear is critical to brawlers and SK's. Again, you cannot just put on one piece to see the result you want. You have to put together a gear set and increase your proc chance if you can. I have a battlemage spec'd warlock (high mit) that was a lot of trouble to assemble. She could not take dmg or regenerate her health in any reasonable amount before the AA switch and gear change that I spent about 30p arranging. But now she is incredible. I am truely dismayed to see a warrior class feeling that they deserve scout class dps boosts. Guardians hold aggro the best. That is their purpose. Zerks are not far behind and their dps is already cracky. Swashbucklers can be fantastic tanks and great solo'ers. Perhaps that is more for you. </blockquote>Firstly, it's impossible to put together a taunt proc gear set using current items without massively sacrificing survivability and DPS. You'd be in a ridiculous mix of treasured/legendary/fabled, and actually lose hate generation from loss of DPS rather than increase it. It would be laughable to see a tank trying to stack all the hate proc items in the game instead of items with +crits or +dps mod. Guardians cannot directly increase item proc chance, unlike Warlocks who've been exploiting the bugged propagation line for months. It would be counter-productive to replace a hate buffer in the MT group with a Warlock just for propagation, so you're stuck with Templar and Dirge buffs only, neither of which make a huge enough difference.Stoneskin gear is more useful on the MT than anyone else. It would be stupid for a Brawler to get, for example, Sandals of Balance before the MT unless via DKP - regardless what class the MT is. In fact Stoneskin is worst on Brawlers since it requires them to get hit to proc, so has a lower proc rate with higher avoidance. I also don't see our Brawler killing themself to get mit gear since they're sensible enough to realise their role 95% of the time is DPS or utility (spawning traps, dragging stuff, etc.), and if we really desperately need them to tank we can give them so much mit with buffs that their gear is inconsequential.Guards hold single target aggro the best and are capable when it comes to groups of mobs. But as someone else posting has said, the game is at a point after the last round of aggro changes where the line between DPS being able to go all out, or having to hold back, is pretty slim, and getting towards non-existent if you don't have the optimum classes. Once you cross this line there's no point DPS gearing up, because they may as well go all-out in mediocre gear instead of holding back in uber stuff. You think it's unreasonable for us to ask for more DPS gear, when our class already is one of the worst solo, has little to no utility, and our DPS benefits the raid as a whole? Every good raid tank plays to max DPS, because they [Removed for Content] well know the higher their parse, the better their aggro control. They killed gearing for survivability with the diminishing returns system at EoF launch. Now they're killing gearing for DPS what's left? If I wanted to play a class that does nothing but make the game more fun for everyone else I'd be a Bard...

ke'la

09-27-2007, 10:42 PM

As far as loot goes not only is the KoS team doing the zones but upto and including EoF the loot tables and iteamization for a given zone where set up buy the designer of that zone, for RoK there are iteamization Devs(who do ALL iteamization) and zone devs, in otherwords the stats on all RoK iteams where put thier by the same people, so their should be much more uniformity on Stat and Proc progression. Also they are looking at more "waky" stats they can add for exsample HYPOTHITICLY they may reintroduce Crit damage from certain Raid Mobs and while providing in the lead in zones Crit negating armor. These types of procs and stats would be usfull ONLY to raiders as they would only be needed on Raids. Wich would allow them to make raids more challanging without just "upping the damage/Health" of the mob wich inturn makes Solo/grouping for MOST classes far less enjoyable as a high end raider because you way out class that content just to beable to compete with the Raid content.

MrMartin

09-28-2007, 04:36 AM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Taunt procs are the worst possible proc you can put on an item for a tank.They are like Flowing Thought, but for Aggro.There is not a single taunt proc item that generates more than 8, eight, Hate per Second.Congratulations you can hold an extra 8 DPS compared to what you could before. Better CA timing, a +12 Damage adornment, tweaked buffs, any of those will benefit you more.</blockquote>Feel free to check your facts next time before you post! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Cape of the Vikomt. 725 aggro 1.8 times per minute.725x1.8=1305 / 60 = 21.75 aggro per second.With a Templar in the group with the right AAs it's:725x2.2=1595 / 60 = 26.58 aggro per second.And that's just single target, the Cape actually taunts the entire encounter.So lets say we are fighting 4 mobs with a Templar in the group with the right AAs.725x2.2x4=6380 / 60 = 106.33 aggro per second.Now add Mayongs earring and the earring from Throne room. It quickly adds up.

Kaycerzan

09-28-2007, 06:04 PM

Remember that AE taunt isn't doing you any 'more' benefit than st-taunt. While the Cape will show 106.33 aggro/second on a group, where it counts in terms of holding aggro is each mob... your AE taunt proc is still 26.58, but you get more mobs.

PaganSaint

09-28-2007, 11:06 PM

Yeah, was thinking about a specific item when I posted that, I saw it later and didn't care enough to change it.Even then, the "Adding up" portion is crap because the taunts are resisted one in four to one in two depending upon the item. They seem to have the same resist rate as a stanceless/buffless ad1 taunt.Have had as many as 9 in a row resisted by x4 mobs.There are currently only five effect types that matter to a tank. Parry %, riposte %, block % and double attack.There are currently only seven proc types that matter to a tank. Wards, heals, stoneskins, control effects immunity, DPS mod, haste mod, and +heal effectiveness.Now out of those twelve, with seventeen slots available, what would you give up for a taunt proc?None of those. You would be trying to double and triple up on as many as you can find and make work, dropping from plate to leather or even cloth if you had to to gain the effects.Unless a proc is going to do a steady 50-100 hate per second, as in procs five times a minute to achieve that kind of hate. Spiking once to twice a minute for 1000 hate won't cut it as a tool to maintain or help maintain aggro.Hell any sort of damage proc generates more threat due to being able to crit, being improved by debuffs and scaling based upon stats.

Noaani

09-29-2007, 02:04 AM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even then, the "Adding up" portion is crap because the taunts are resisted one in four to one in two depending upon the item. They seem to have the same resist rate as a stanceless/buffless ad1 taunt.</blockquote>I am not sure how true this is, but i have heard a rumor that the Devs are not going to be putting direct damage procs on gear with RoK (by direct damage i mean actual direct damage, as well as DoTs, but not procs such as that found on Vine Wrapped boots, or Wand of Crystalized plasma).The reasoning behind this, so the rumor goes, is that SoE are having trouble actually working out how useful a proc will be to a player. As stupid as this sounds, when you look at all the spell procs in game now, it is very easy to see where they got confused.When a developer makes an item with a spell proc, they also set the paramaters of the proc. Some procs will use the wearers casting skills to determine if the proc will land (disruption for damage, subjigation for root, stun and stifle procs, aggression for taunts etc), some procs will have their own to hit ratio, totally ignoring the skills of the caster, and some procs seem to be guarenteed to land reguardless. On top of this, some procs also seem to always crit of the spell they are attached to crits, and some seem to not crit nearly as often as they should. On top of that, some procs will always crit when the spell they are attached to crits, and also have a chance to crit even if the main spell does not, giving that proc a much higher crit chance than it should.All of this means that a player discovering a new item with a proc should be very aprehensive about it until they have had several raids with the item equipped, and cjhecked over the parse to figure out which of the above the particular proc follows. If there were 2 procs in game with the exact same numbers, but both following different rules from above, the difference in damage that these procs would put out over a large sample would be massive. The more favourable proc would easily double the damage of the less favourable one.With that, if the rumor is true, it is no wonder SoE are looking at removing these procs altogether, as they have confused the crap out of themselves by not following a set standard.

PaganSaint

09-29-2007, 03:24 AM

Thats an easily fixed problem.Base the resist rate on a flat xx% harder or easier to resist instead of having some skill based, some internal percentage based.By not implementing any damage or debuffs proc gear the developers will automatically pigeon hole the classes that rely and build predominately on the damage proc items the means of their classes' top DPS into using t7 gear over t8 gear.Hooray mages get new armor for looks and stats.Boo they don't use any of it because it doesn't have proc's.Removing the effect that is having a problem because of inconsistent coding is not a Fix. It is showing that you cannot develop and test items.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~EDIT:But that is not what this is about. This is about letting the dev's know they have already implemented and shown what kind of proc's are most beneficial and sought after even to the point of dropping mitigation because the effects are that helpful(mainly because mitigation has been broken for almost a year now, want this to change, go back to KoS mitigation effectiveness).Taunt proc's are nice. If they are on an item that gives a crap ton of HPs and stamina as a filler proc instead of something useful.I listed above the proc's and effects that are most helpful and sought after, taunt proc's are neither. They offer random bursts of hate gain that neither cements hate position like class based taunts, nor rip aggro like attacks and hate position modifiers.For a taunt proc to be worthwhile it would have to be rather weak single shot threat increase while also increasing hate positions, but proc four to six times a minute, base, modifiable by blessing, luck, propagation, and ancestry.The best hate generation is from damage. It is affected by debuffs, skill, buffs, stats, and critical percentages. Just look at the Bruiser and Monk taunt proc on successful attack buffs. The bruiser one is much superior at hate generation than the monk one. Why? It does damage.But then again, SoE is famous for complete and untested(on test servers, implemented with less than a week till launch equals to untested for that kind of change) combat revamps on arrival of a new expansion or just because they feel like it at the time.Expect a complete re-working of the hate generation system along with spell consolidation to appease the botters who want an easier time to make their scripts.

TuinalOfTheNexus

09-30-2007, 01:11 AM

<cite>Lekoaf@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Taunt procs are the worst possible proc you can put on an item for a tank.They are like Flowing Thought, but for Aggro.There is not a single taunt proc item that generates more than 8, eight, Hate per Second.Congratulations you can hold an extra 8 DPS compared to what you could before. Better CA timing, a +12 Damage adornment, tweaked buffs, any of those will benefit you more.</blockquote>Feel free to check your facts next time before you post! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />" />Cape of the Vikomt. 725 aggro 1.8 times per minute.725x1.8=1305 / 60 = 21.75 aggro per second.With a Templar in the group with the right AAs it's:725x2.2=1595 / 60 = 26.58 aggro per second.And that's just single target, the Cape actually taunts the entire encounter.So lets say we are fighting 4 mobs with a Templar in the group with the right AAs.725x2.2x4=6380 / 60 = 106.33 aggro per second.Now add Mayongs earring and the earring from Throne room. It quickly adds up.</blockquote> Now let's consider the Rallos Zek deity cloak. 1.8 min of 300DD + 300DoT for 600 damage/proc. Plus 6 seconds of +15 DPS mod every proc. Hard to translate this directly to dps, but reasonable to assume it's at least 100 damage/swing for a few swings of a brimstone hammer. So total damage/proc is probably about 800. On a single target the vikomt cloak is - gasp - not only less dps, but also less hate! In fact, I'd argue even the dedicated wrap (treasured) with 2% crits will generate more hate/min than the vikomt cloak. A similar comparison can be made between the fabled King's Tear from TTR, and the treasured collection-quested planar orb of the wanderer. Or Cherista's Royal Band (300hate) against a handcrafted imbued ring (20dps or 20haste). In all these examples, the taunt proc item is unquestionably harder to get, yet largely a downgrade from treasured or even handcrafted when it comes to aggro control. Perhaps the vikomt cloak has a rare niche when facing 4 mobs - but seriously, on multimob encounters, I'd stick with the higher DPS provided by any other cloak in the game, rather than switching in gear with a vague, resistable, effect.

Noaani

09-30-2007, 09:29 AM

<cite>TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Perhaps the vikomt cloak has a rare niche when facing 4 mobs - but seriously, on multimob encounters, I'd stick with the higher DPS provided by any other cloak in the game, rather than switching in gear with a vague, resistable, effect.</blockquote>Don't forget to add "that provides no way of identifying if the taunt even goes off, let alone actually lands on the target".When it comes to hate generation, anything random is bad. Random hate, random de-hate, its all equally as bad as each other. Some people love the idea of de-taunt adornments on mage weapons, saying it allows them to do more DPS. problem is, they have no actual way of knowing if it has gone off, and so no way of knowing how it is making any difference.The same can be said for the Vikmont cloak, and any other taunt proc item. Until there are numbers on screen saying they have gone off to add/reduce the hate of the caster by xxx, they are of negligable use.If you have no actual idea how close you are to pulling/losing aggro, you have no idea whether you should be increasing/decreasing your hate generation at all.Taunt/detaunt procs take the hate mechanics of the game out of the hands of the player, cover them in a veil, and then push them off to the RNG like they are last weeks dirty laundry. Small, fequantly firing, reliable taunt procs on gear with otherwise useful stats is the way to go. Maybe even add taunt procs on to items with damage procs, as this will give tanks something useful but not overpowered for soloing, while still worthwhile for raiding.

Noaani

09-30-2007, 09:35 AM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thats an easily fixed problem.Base the resist rate on a flat xx% harder or easier to resist instead of having some skill based, some internal percentage based.By not implementing any damage or debuffs proc gear the developers will automatically pigeon hole the classes that rely and build predominately on the damage proc items the means of their classes' top DPS into using t7 gear over t8 gear.Hooray mages get new armor for looks and stats.Boo they don't use any of it because it doesn't have proc's.Removing the effect that is having a problem because of inconsistent coding is not a Fix. It is showing that you cannot develop and test items.</blockquote>I agree, if the rumor I heard is in fact true, it would not be a hard problem to fix. All they need to do is have a 30 minute meeting with all devolopers that may make items, and come up with an item proc standard.I could see it being very possable, if what I have heard turns out to be true, that mages (wizard in particular) would be wearing the BCG for another whole expansion, due to a high proc'ing damage proc, and a heat debuff. It would suck to be wearing an HQ item 3 full expansion after it was released. It would be even worse than the Robe of the Invoker/Gown of Glory issue mages have been having.

NosajMa

09-30-2007, 07:12 PM

I have to agree with an earlier poster: this thread is nothing but a tank whine.Where did the gear with the taunt procs say that they were meant for you to use when solo'ing? Oh, they didn't. Guess that means you have to fall back on using the dps gear that anyone can get, such as mastercrafted rings, the vampire proc gear, the planar orb earring, etc.Did you ever stop to think about whether or not you need any help solo'ing? Or what the potential consequences of adding "scout loot" procs to tank gear would be? Game balance exists for a reason.OP's arguments are counter-intuitive; he argues that he already tanks in mostly legendary/treasured stuff because "taunt procs are useless" yet complains that that's exactly what he'd have to do to make a gear set utilizing taunt procs. Also, agro-management is EVERYONE's responsibility, not just the tank's. The tank should do what he can to be what he's meant to be--a tank--and that means getting whatever you can in the way of tank abilities, including taunt procs. You don't like it? Tough, that's how SOE's designed the game to work. The rest is up to dps'ers to know when to tone it down.You're a guardian. If you can do dps, great. If not, too bad--you're not meant to be dps.

TuinalOfTheNexus

10-01-2007, 07:14 AM

<cite>NosajMaxX wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have to agree with an earlier poster: this thread is nothing but a tank whine.Where did the gear with the taunt procs say that they were meant for you to use when solo'ing? Oh, they didn't. Guess that means you have to fall back on using the dps gear that anyone can get, such as mastercrafted rings, the vampire proc gear, the planar orb earring, etc.Did you ever stop to think about whether or not you need any help solo'ing? Or what the potential consequences of adding "scout loot" procs to tank gear would be? Game balance exists for a reason.OP's arguments are counter-intuitive; he argues that he already tanks in mostly legendary/treasured stuff because "taunt procs are useless" yet complains that that's exactly what he'd have to do to make a gear set utilizing taunt procs. Also, agro-management is EVERYONE's responsibility, not just the tank's. The tank should do what he can to be what he's meant to be--a tank--and that means getting whatever you can in the way of tank abilities, including taunt procs. You don't like it? Tough, that's how SOE's designed the game to work. The rest is up to dps'ers to know when to tone it down.You're a guardian. If you can do dps, great. If not, too bad--you're not meant to be dps.</blockquote>My argument about taunt procs when it comes to soloing isn't really a major point I'm trying to make, just an observation. Let me put it this way - when it comes to soloing, I use a necro alt in legendary gear, and they're far better than my fabled Guardian in any situation. I have no huge problem with this; some classes will always be better solo. But it seems strange for classes that are already strong solo to be getting raid drops that make them godlike, whilst classes that are weak solo get taunt procs and +hate%. Not a significant issue for me personally because as I said, I use a necro, but it would be nice if the huge solo gap between classes was lessening instead of widening.Again, like several posters, you assume the "scout loot" has always been unusable by tanks. Not true. It's only in TTR, and presumably RoK, that they're heading this way. In fact, tanks have previously gotten more gear with +dps mod (e.g. Underworld Legplates, Calcified Bone Spaulders) than scouts. It's because I could upgrade my DPS that I can continue to hold aggro against Sorcerers when they're parsing upwards of 3k. You say SoE "designed the game to work" a certain way; what I'm saying is the design of taunt procs and much high end tank loot is broken to the extent it's not worth looting when compared to lower-end stuff. The "aggro management is everyone's responsibility" line is bulls*it - either DPS can go full burn or they can't. If they can't then "aggro management" consists of them standing not casting until a 20s assist call like pickup raid n00bs, or equipping inferior gear to lower their DPS. There is no point a DPS class improving their damage output if the raid can't support it, and it's a [Removed for Content] sight harder to parse 3k zonewide than slack and "aggro-manage".I am indeed a Guardian. If I can do dps, I hold aggro. If not, I'm useless. We've all seen the pickup tanks that parse 500 and have naked Warlocks by the 5th pull. I bet they have taunt proc gear on.

PaganSaint

10-01-2007, 10:51 AM

For an averagely equipped tank:DPS output gets aggro, hate transfer(s) cement aggro, taunts put you over the top against your highest parsers.For the few tanks on every server fully equipped with fully equipped transfers and both knowledgeable(two separate things):DPS output gets aggro, hate transfers cement aggro, taunts are fluff.