I have a question about the mender bot..

[Tylia]

And maybe this question was asked and answered in another thread but I haven't noticed.  Anyway, why does it cost so much more to repair using the bot than it does a regular mender?  This doesn't make sense to me.  The bot is very expensive to make to begin with, (6pp for the fuel) and the recipe itself cost me 5pp.  It's a great convenience on raids definitely, but is also more expensive for people to use than a regular mender would be.  It's cheaper to use repair kits actually, since they only use 12gp in fuel to make.  A guildmate recently had to spend 50gp to repair from broken to 100% using the bot, where using a repair kit 3 times would have cost him only 36gp (a tradeskiller in our guild only charges the cost of fuel for the repair kits).I just don't understand why it costs so much more to repair with the bot, except for the "on site" convenience.

[Toy Dragon]

From my understanding, the mender bot uses the old repair pricing from back before Kingdom of Sky.  I guess it's just an added penalty for dying in a raid and using the repair bot.

[Mystfit]

I of course speak for no-one but me, but I assumed the extra charge is a balance for the fact the bot has unlimted uses (Unlike most other tinkered items in game). Once you zone, the bot goes back in your pocket, ready to use again. All others are limited, or in the case of the hovering device msut be refuled with batteries.

[Domino]

I wasn't involved in the decision on pricing of course, but from memory as a player at the time, it was intentionally made pricier than the normal menders.  You're paying for the convenience, and it's not supposed to be as cheap and accessible as your home town mender. 

[Tylia]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wasn't involved in the decision on pricing of course, but from memory as a player at the time, it was intentionally made pricier than the normal menders.  You're paying for the convenience, and it's not supposed to be as cheap and accessible as your home town mender.  </blockquote>Thank you Domino.  I appreciate your response.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I suppose that's just "the price you have to pay" for the convenience.  I do wish it hadn't been so pricey to make, but now that I have it I guard it with my life.  lol

[Syndic]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wasn't involved in the decision on pricing of course, but from memory as a player at the time, it was intentionally made pricier than the normal menders.  You're paying for the convenience, and it's not supposed to be as cheap and accessible as your home town mender.  </blockquote>But as pointed out should the mender bot really be more expensive than the repair kit?  I don't raid much but the one time I had used it I nearly fell over from the price.  Maybe the cost to build one could come down, meaning the cost you have laid out for this item is amortised over all the people that use the item.  Personally for something that costs that much I'd be wanting to pay outpost repair costs at the most (I've only used a bot once, too pricey to do it again for me, but to me it seemed pricier than going to LP town and repairing)

[Mystfit]

Ah, but in the case of raids (where the mender bot is used mainly), you usually CAN'T leave and go to town. And you and I know howprices go upppppp when they haves a at their mercy. Even though it's costlier, I prefer mending to 100% and not having to worry for a while. Plus in new raid zones, with lots of wipes, there is a timer on kits, so a combo of kits and mender bot can get utilized....

[Dasein]

A mender bot is really the sort of thing a guild as a whole invests in for raiding. While the price to make is high, if you spread it out over the entire guild, or use guild funds to purchase the material, it is really not that bad, and the benefits are huge.

[cggerth]

I do have a concern about the mender bots coming up in the future.Right now the mender bot is very useful in zones when you are learning a new mob that you die over and over again.  (my guild actually has 3 different ones we can pull out). My question is, what will happen to the mender bots with all the persistant zones coming out.  Nobody is going to pay 6pp + 6 rares to make a mender bot that gobbles up so much of your money if you can just zone out, repair, and zone back in within a 5 to 10 minute time frame (really just an extended afk break).I am already seeing it in emerald halls.  After everyone gets to a certain point, we just take a 10 to 15 minute extended afk break, everyone runs down and repairs at the cheaper mender then runs back.  As more and more persistant zones are introduced, it will make the mender bot less and less wanted.  (I know for me, i'd rather take an extra 10 minute break to repair with about half prices then use the bot).  Now what would be REALLY neat is if the person who owns the bot got like 1 or 2% of the repair costs automatically deposited in the bank (or guild bank if it could be setup that way) <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Rijacki]

<cite>Syndic wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wasn't involved in the decision on pricing of course, but from memory as a player at the time, it was intentionally made pricier than the normal menders.  You're paying for the convenience, and it's not supposed to be as cheap and accessible as your home town mender.  </blockquote>But as pointed out should the mender bot really be more expensive than the repair kit?  I don't raid much but the one time I had used it I nearly fell over from the price.  Maybe the cost to build one could come down, meaning the cost you have laid out for this item is amortised over all the people that use the item.  Personally for something that costs that much I'd be wanting to pay outpost repair costs at the most (I've only used a bot once, too pricey to do it again for me, but to me it seemed pricier than going to LP town and repairing)</blockquote>The price was/is, in my opinion, a disincentive to use it too freely.  Raids are supposed to be hard, at least while still learning them.  Being able to mend to full at your own convenience (without leaving or taking a lengthy break) should be expensive for the convenience.  The mendbot should be something brought out on rare occasions and not every raid.  Same for the repair kits.That said, I've gagged on the price, too.  While I think it should be high, it might be a bit too high considering what it takes to even make one.

[KassieEmma]

<p>I am a 350 Tinkerer in a raiding guild and I would like to see the price of repairs go down.  Right now whenever I (or another guild tinkerer) pop a mender bot in the raid zone I hear a collective grumble from folks as they pay their bills.  </p><p>I've even heard people say they can't afford it, or would rather call the raid without finishing than have to pay the hefty-fees.  We have 3 tinkerers with bots in my guild, so we could continue through the zone with multiple wipes if needed, but the cost is prohibitive to many.  </p><p>I would like to see the cost reduced by the time RoK comes out, so we can stay in the new instances, zones, and raids without having to quit due to broken gear and lack of coin.  I have a full set of backup armor, but once the expansion is out many of us will be accumulating newer gear and will want to repair that instead of wearing the lower-level pieces.</p><p>I understand the rationale for charging a "convenience fee."  However, does it have to be THAT much more?  Perhaps it could cost <i>more</i> than a city mender, but only 5 gold more (like when you pay an ATM fee).  It seems to be nearly double the price of an in-town mender.</p>

[Calthine]

Mostly tongue-in-cheek...have you tried NOT dying?

[cggerth]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mostly tongue-in-cheek...have you tried NOT dying?</blockquote>Any guild (no matter how good you are) has multiple wipes constantly when learning a new mob.  (don't believe me, look at eq2 players for the high level raiding guilds and they will be near the top for most deaths).you can't NOT die many many....many many times while learning techniques to kill new mobs (it's why alot of people enjoy raiding, using new ideas to take down mobs).

[Cadori Seraphim]

When are you not a smartarse?  lolHeaven forbid people ask for lower repair bills or for that matter lowering the cost of the repair bot to compensate the new changes.Though, that said I can see the reasoning behind initially putting the higher repair cost on the item. But as mentioned already with the persistance instances becoming a more common thing for raid zones I cant see keeping this cost up.

[Tylia]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mostly tongue-in-cheek...have you tried NOT dying?</blockquote>Well, yes.. we have tried that.  But we just can't seem to get it quite right 100% of the time.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  As a matter of fact, I use my tinkered Gigglegibber's Secret of Death quite often and have managed to avoid quite a few deaths.It would be nice if the cost of repair using the bot were lowered a bit, though I wouldn't expect it to be as low as the city menders.  It would also be nice if a small portion of the cost of everyone's repairs were returned to the guild.  It's a thought anyway.

[KassieEmma]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mostly tongue-in-cheek...have you tried NOT dying?</blockquote><p>What is this "not dying" that you speak of?  I am a wizard, dying is part of my creed . . .</p><p>The Wizard's Creed: __________________________________________________ _____________________________________you will die, you will die often, you will die for no reason, you will die for a reason, you will die because soe wants you to die, did I mention you will die? Start getting used to it.  <b>IllusiveThoughts</b></p>

[Calthine]

See, if you'd stop that Adventuring stuff and stay in the crafting instance wher eyou belong, you wouldn't have that problem.

[KassieEmma]

<cite>inkasnana wrote:</cite><blockquote> As a matter of fact, I use my tinkered Gigglegibber's Secret of Death quite often and have managed to avoid quite a few deaths.It would be nice if the cost of repair using the bot were lowered a bit, though I wouldn't expect it to be as low as the city menders.  It would also be nice if a small portion of the cost of everyone's repairs were returned to the guild.  It's a thought anyway.</blockquote><p>I use my Gigglegibber's Secret of Death too.  I am the wizard who can FD!  Ha!  </p><p>If we could lower the cost it would be great for learning new raid zones.  I can see us wiping a lot in the new ROK zones, and I am sure the cost of repairing the gear will increase with the levels anyway. YIKES!</p>

[KassieEmma]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>See, if you'd stop that Adventuring stuff and stay in the crafting instance where you belong, you wouldn't have that problem.</blockquote><p>Pfft, I craft to support my adventuring addiction.  That is why I am a Tinkerer and not a Transmutter.  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Powers]

<cite>cggerth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Any guild (no matter how good you are) has multiple wipes constantly when learning a new mob.  (don't believe me, look at eq2 players for the high level raiding guilds and they will be near the top for most deaths).you can't NOT die many many....many many times while learning techniques to kill new mobs (it's why alot of people enjoy raiding, using new ideas to take down mobs).</blockquote>This is what I don't get.  Where's the high adventure in constant dying?  I don't seem to remember the Fellowship taking on the Balrog fifteen times before they finally figured out they could just sacrifice the wizard and escape out the back door.  Imagine if Wulfgar and Drizzt had taken twenty runs at Icingdeath before they discovered that the icicle was attackable.Is this really what it's come to?  Is that the only way to make "challenging" encounters, to implement a trick that takes multiple full raid-wipes to discover?  Is that really the vision the designers have for the high-end game?  "Die until you learn the secret"?I just don't get it.Powers  &8^]

[Cadori Seraphim]

<cite>Powers wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>cggerth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Any guild (no matter how good you are) has multiple wipes constantly when learning a new mob.  (don't believe me, look at eq2 players for the high level raiding guilds and they will be near the top for most deaths).you can't NOT die many many....many many times while learning techniques to kill new mobs (it's why alot of people enjoy raiding, using new ideas to take down mobs).</blockquote>This is what I don't get.  Where's the high adventure in constant dying?  I don't seem to remember the Fellowship taking on the Balrog fifteen times before they finally figured out they could just sacrifice the wizard and escape out the back door.  Imagine if Wulfgar and Drizzt had taken twenty runs at Icingdeath before they discovered that the icicle was attackable.Is this really what it's come to?  Is that the only way to make "challenging" encounters, to implement a trick that takes multiple full raid-wipes to discover?  Is that really the vision the designers have for the high-end game?  "Die until you learn the secret"?I just don't get it.Powers  &8^]</blockquote>In a sense I think its nice that things are not always cookie cutter wham bam thank you mam sort of encounters.  But I also see your frustration too.BTW: I've got a <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb7aRCHZfHM" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Secret!</a> Don't Tell!<span style="color: #ff66ff;">fyi link above may not be suitable at work or for younger children, tho it certainly isnt illegal.</span>

[Rijacki]

<cite>Powers wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>This is what I don't get.  Where's the high adventure in constant dying?  I don't seem to remember the Fellowship taking on the Balrog fifteen times before they finally figured out they could just sacrifice the wizard and escape out the back door.  Imagine if Wulfgar and Drizzt had taken twenty runs at Icingdeath before they discovered that the icicle was attackable.</blockquote>Editing.  You only get to see the good parts in the books or movies, not all the attempts over and over and over until they get the strat right.  (Heck, if you watch some of the guild raids videos, they do the same... they show the final outcome, not the thousand deaths before)But... as for the "<span class="postbody">Is this really what it's come to?":That's the way it has always been.  From the first Pen and Paper game to the first MUD to the first computer RPG to the first First Person Shooter (how many times did you restart in Doom?) to the first MMOGs, to EQ1, to EQ2, and beyond.  Heck, even in life there are a lot of tasks (albiet not involving death for each failure) that you'll try again and again and again until you figure out the "trick" or the strategy or even just the best method to succeed.  EVERYTHING.  It's not "what it's come to", it's what it has always been and always will be.  Even learning to talk as a baby (or walk or anything) uses the same model.  Heck, even amoebas do it... keep trying, keep bonking into that wall until you figure out another way around it.</span>

[Boyar]

So, while everyone's talking about the mender bot, I had a newbie question. The item description shows one charge and says nothing about reuse. The one guy I knew that had one, always logged out while the mender was up, and believed he was avoiding losing the one charge by doing so. Is the mender, in fact, persistent beyond one use by design? Now that I'm 350 tinker, can I safely purchase one, secure in the knowledge that it won't go poof on my first use, without having to rely on shady mechanics? Thanks!

[pointytail]

I keep hearing that after you use the Mender Bot, it's a 1-hour timer + a zoning for it to 'recharge'. Haven't used one yet and have yet to get my grimy fingers on a blueprint either. :/As for people raiding + high repair costs, isn't that the costs of raiding? Better gear means it's worth more to the NPC. Being worth more, it has a higher cost to repair. And if all your time is spent raiding plus equipment upkeep and no time spent mining the endless plat mines to recoup your costs, of course you're going to end up copper-less.

[Mystfit]

<p>I made a mender bot and have used it a few times. When I zone out of whatever instance I am in, the bot resets it's charge to 1. (with a timer of one hour.  His camping may be what he thinks brings it back, but it's not.</p>

[Powers]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><span class="postbody">(albiet not involving death for each failure)</span></blockquote>I have no problem with failure, with needing to figure out a strategy.  My problem is with the philosophy "Oh, we're going to die x number of times before we get this right," and considering that a strategy.  It's the death that's the problem, not the failure.Just personal preference, perhaps, but to me, dying is something to be avoided, not just another obstacle on the way to success.Powers  &8^]

[Rijacki]

<cite>Powers wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><span class="postbody">(albiet not involving death for each failure)</span></blockquote>I have no problem with failure, with needing to figure out a strategy.  My problem is with the philosophy "Oh, we're going to die x number of times before we get this right," and considering that a strategy.  It's the death that's the problem, not the failure.Just personal preference, perhaps, but to me, dying is something to be avoided, not just another obstacle on the way to success.</blockquote>I agree with you and think that was part of why the cost of the menderbot is higher.. as a disincentive to the "we just need to die X times" mentality.But.. dying in raids... if you're in a new (to you) place against a new (to you) encounter or with a different bunch of people than other times, it does happen and can happen A LOT if you're going against stuff you really aren't equipped for (like trying to fight stuff in Emerald Halls in Mastercrafted instead of going to Labs and other KoS locations to get some gear and learn the process of working together).

[Kilatha]

I find it very difficult to understand that nobody complains at the price to craft a mender-bot! I'm not a rich character, and bought the recipe for 4 platinum, only to find out that I had to pay another 6 platinum for fuel alone, and then add rares for the recipe.I can totally understand it being pricier to use for the repairs out in the field, but the cost to craft one is totally unacceptable. I guess the money you pay to the mender-bot only disappears into void too. Should go in the tinkerers pocket with such expensive materials.If I've misunderstood how it works please correct me (can't afford to try <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> on my own).<hr />edit: spelling

[Cathars]

<cite>Powers wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><span class="postbody">(albiet not involving death for each failure)</span></blockquote>I have no problem with failure, with needing to figure out a strategy.  My problem is with the philosophy "Oh, we're going to die x number of times before we get this right," and considering that a strategy.  It's the death that's the problem, not the failure.Just personal preference, perhaps, but to me, dying is something to be avoided, not just another obstacle on the way to success.Powers  &8^]</blockquote>Not entirely sure what you're getting at.  Is there a way to fail and not die?  Developing your strategy is an incremental thing.  Encounters are complex and there's dozens of ways to cause a wipe.  Heck the first handfull of times is just finding out what the mob does and *then* you can figure out what your raid party will do about it.  Address something, wipe, refine and restructure, trash what doesnt work and try other ideas.  If you had a way to design a raid system that was different than that, but still rewarded thoughtfulness and engaged the hardcore player for six months to a year while you developed another expansion ... your phone will be ringing off the hook from the next genration of MMORPG designers.

[Mystfit]

<cite>Kilathaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I find it very difficult to understand that nobody complains at the price to craft a mender-bot! I'm not a rich character, and bought the recipe for 4 platinum, only to find out that I had to pay another 6 platinum for fuel alone, and then add rares for the recipe.I can totally understand it being pricier to use for the repairs out in the field, but the cost to craft one is totally unacceptable. I guess the money you pay to the mender-bot only disappears into void too. Should go in the tinkerers pocket with such expensive materials.If I've misunderstood how it works please correct me (can't afford to try <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> on my own).<hr />edit: spelling</blockquote>It's pricey, no question, alot of the rare recipe tinkerer items are. Heck, I ahve a recipe (the evac item), I won't ever be able to craft cause I can't spend that much for a 5-charge item that doesn't recharge. THis one does though, what you spend, you spend once and fro mthen on yo have the ability to help your raid mend and over the long haul, I consider the expense a minor setback. Also, consider that it's usefulness is mainly for guilds that raid and in alot of cases, I imagine if the guild feels there is use in a mender bot, then they will pony up the costs to make hte little bugger. Mine did. They helped pay for the recipe and the fuel costs.

[Tylia]

<cite>Kilathaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I find it very difficult to understand that nobody complains at the price to craft a mender-bot! I'm not a rich character, and bought the recipe for 4 platinum, only to find out that I had to pay another 6 platinum for fuel alone, and then add rares for the recipe.I can totally understand it being pricier to use for the repairs out in the field, but the cost to craft one is totally unacceptable. I guess the money you pay to the mender-bot only disappears into void too. Should go in the tinkerers pocket with such expensive materials.If I've misunderstood how it works please correct me (can't afford to try <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> on my own).<hr />edit: spelling</blockquote>It's true that the bot is VERY expensive to make, but it's very useful to a raid guild even with the higher repair cost.  I had help on the cost from my guild as well as our raid alliance guild.  Unfortunately it's true that the money paid to the bot for repairs just disappears and it would be nice if some of that was returned instead.  It would be nice to be able to repay the guild coffers with the money they put out to construct the bot.

[Kilatha]

<cite>Mystfit wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>It's pricey, no question, alot of the rare recipe tinkerer items are. Heck, I ahve a recipe (the evac item), I won't ever be able to craft cause I can't spend that much for a 5-charge item that doesn't recharge. THis one does though, what you spend, you spend once and fro mthen on yo have the ability to help your raid mend and over the long haul, I consider the expense a minor setback. Also, consider that it's usefulness is mainly for guilds that raid and in alot of cases, I imagine if the guild feels there is use in a mender bot, then they will pony up the costs to make hte little bugger. Mine did. They helped pay for the recipe and the fuel costs. </blockquote>The guild assumed the mender-bot would function one time only (recipe reads 1 charge), and then we would have to pay another 6+ plat to cough up a new mender-bot for next raid.But from what you are saying I take it that this 6+ platinum cost is a one in a lifetime cost. And we can reuse the same mender-bot again, just have to pay something for recharging it?If so, what are the price to re-charge it?

[Targ]

<cite>Kilathaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>If so, what are the price to re-charge it?</blockquote>It recharges after one hour of real time.  But you can only use the mender bot one time in an instance, zone out and wait an hour and it is good to go agin.  Cost to use it is about 60% more then normal mendor.

[Kilatha]

<p>Nice, thanks for the information <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Powers]

<cite>Catharsis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Not entirely sure what you're getting at.  Is there a way to fail and not die?  Developing your strategy is an incremental thing.  Encounters are complex and there's dozens of ways to cause a wipe.  Heck the first handfull of times is just finding out what the mob does and *then* you can figure out what your raid party will do about it.</blockquote>Well why does it have to be that way?  Wouldn't it be more heroic to have a way to "find out what the mob does" without sending hundreds of bodies at it?  Investigation, research, controlled observation?  And then, provide escape routes -- be it spell or distraction or calling for assistance, or what have you -- something that, when success is no longer an option, allows the raiders to escape with lives intact.  Of course, if the opponent then modified his/her/its strategies accordingly, knowing that the raiders would return, that'd just be icing on the cake.I'm challenging the mindset that the only way to raid is the way raiding was done in EverQuest.  "Expect to die, often," is just not a fun game mechanic.Powers  &8^]