Transmuting - powder rate depends on level difference?

[Turb]

<p>Hi,</p><p>I've been transmuting low level treasured/adepts and noticed that the powder rate for low level items seems to have fallen as my transmute skill has gone up.</p><p>I initially had 66 powders from 238 items (28%), but since then only 33 from the last 173 items (19%).</p><p>For items at my transmute level (e.g. L35 item for 150 transmute skill) I have recorded 22 powders from 67 items (33%). </p><p>This suggests you get a better powder rate if the item level is closer to your transmuting level, and the rate drops as the item becomes more 'grey' to you.</p><p>Is that the case, or have I been very unlucky?</p>

[Calthine]

Dunno, but I'd say that to determine random vs. streak vs. weighted chance I think you'd need a way far bigger sample.Unless Domino can wake up Illucide and ask him <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  (This close to an expansion I assume all Dev's are collapsed in exhaustion somewhere.)

[Turb]

<p>Well, that's quite a reasonably sized sample set, but yeah I'll get more numbers.</p><p>It just seems that powder success rate might fall off as the level gap grows, just like the skillup chance does as the recipes go grey.</p><p>If true, you should find a 125 skill transmuter to transmute L30 items for best powder chance, for example.</p>

[Domino]

Gee Calthine, for a minute there I thought you were implying something rather more interesting!  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />I don't know the answer offhand but I'll see if I can dig up more details during the work week.  If Ilucide refuses to wake up, I expect Lyndro or the coding team will know where to look.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Calthine]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gee Calthine, for a minute there I thought you were implying something rather more interesting!  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>If there's anything more interesting, I'm not sure I wanna know.../puts her fingers in her ears and sings "lalalalalala"

[Rijacki]

I think the chance to get a powder or fragment is probably inverse to the one you need the most at that moment <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Raveller]

As if anyone 'needs' fragments. My transgambler farts fragments.

[DizzyGee]

<cite>Raveller wrote:</cite><blockquote>As if anyone 'needs' fragments. My transgambler farts fragments.</blockquote>Dunno... my biggest problem as of about t4 was coming up with enough fragments - I still have something like 30 powders and 6 fragments for tiers 4-7. Guess I'm just "lucky". <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Rijacki]

<cite>Raveller wrote:</cite><blockquote>As if anyone 'needs' fragments. My transgambler farts fragments.</blockquote>T1 to T3, yeah, I usually have more than I need when I 'mute those things.  T4 stuff, I've got more powders than the number of fragments I need and I'm sure it's going to get worse, based on what others have said, even with the high rate of fragment production vs powders.My mantra while 'muting a T1 to T3 is "powder powder powder, each powder is a chance at skill up".  For T4 stuff "fragment fragment, need more frags to get more skill".

[Bayne]

I just came back from a 3 month hiatus and I got about the same results in transmutes powders vs fragments the lower tiers.

[Calthine]

The original user testing in beta and just after launched gave the following chances across all levels:Common Result:  75%Rare Result:  20%Ultra-rare dual result:  5%

[Anordil]

<p>I spent a good part of Saturday and Sunday working on transmuting. My little paladin was busy farming treasured items and rare harvests and grunching them so I could *try* to gain skill. Perhaps it was just me, but I seemed to notice a trend - level 9 items <i>seemed </i>to produce more Ulteran powders than say a level 2 item. Not sure, it just seemed that way. </p><p>[cough]</p><p>I'm restraining myself from giving vent to animal cries of angst about the process of levelling a transmuter. The powders needed at low levels are gained much too infrequently. I wound up with 180 lapis fragments and about 50 Ulteran powders. I then used said powders to attempt to skill from 101 to 125. Out of the fifty combines, I gained exactly 10 skill points. Not a single temper that I made can be sold since the market is glutted with them. I decided I wanted to see if working with the recipes that were green would produce better results, so I dug out some master I books that I'd hoarded (most would sell for about 10g on the market). Recycled them for the Infusion of Air - which sell, btw, for 21g a pop - and wound up with exactly no skill gain and level ten doodads that sell for about 20s. </p><p>Compared to other crafting, this is really, really crazy. We're recycling specialized items in the hopes of getting the materials that we need to craft items that we can't sell on the off-chance of getting skill-gain.</p><p>Needless to say, I'm far from gruntled by this and am hoping that there's some weird mystic formulae that I overlooked that I can use in future. </p><p>----</p><p>You know, the more I think about it, the more aggravated I become. Every other craft requires harvested materials - materials that we can find regularly (yes, yes, rares being the exception and the quantity of roots, oy). The time we spend trying to find rare harvests, treasured or better drops, or farming the money to buy the things we need to recycle in hopes of getting the materials to craft is enough to completely disillusion me with crafting in EQ2. Why should we even bother to attempt to be self-sufficient when we're punished like this.</p><p>[sigh] Sorry. [shoves the topic back on the rails].</p>

[Bloodfa]

<p>Oh, the plats I've spent ... <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>And never figured it out myself.</p>

[Powers]

<cite>Anordil@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Why should we even bother to attempt to be self-sufficient when we're punished like this.</p></blockquote>You know, you don't have to be a transmuter.I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with the balance of materials-to-product in supply and price; I'm just saying, if it's frustrating you this much, don't do it.  Work on your regular craft, or start a new one with a new character.  Life's too short to get frustrated playing a game.  =)Powers  &8^]

[Anordil]

<cite>Powers wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anordil@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Why should we even bother to attempt to be self-sufficient when we're punished like this.</p></blockquote>You know, you don't have to be a transmuter.I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with the balance of materials-to-product in supply and price; I'm just saying, if it's frustrating you this much, don't do it.  Work on your regular craft, or start a new one with a new character.  Life's too short to get frustrated playing a game.  =)Powers  &8^]</blockquote>hehe, I know, but now I've put my hand to the plow and I'll see it through if it kills me or sends me gibbering to Colney Hatch. I'm stubborn that way. That and I honestly DO want to be a transmuter. I want to be able to provide for my guildfolk. Making obscene amounts of money has very little appeal for me, you see. As the guildmaster of my guild, I like to be able to help my folk. I'm probably making very little sense, and what you say is very true - I don't have to be a transmuter. Except that I do. At least in my own weird brain.

[Gorth]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>The original user testing in beta and just after launched gave the following chances across all levels:Common Result:  75%Rare Result:  20%Ultra-rare dual result:  5%</blockquote>Thats what I tested the numbers out to be as well, both before and after it went live... RNG variances occur as always, but if you knock out a batch of 1000+ it'll narrow down to right about those numbers, unless things have changed recently.. I don't have the exact data numbers from my personal experience anymore due to a hard drive crash, but its possible that there were some changes made to breakdown rates based on tier/skill ratio when they fiddled with skillup rates for tink/trans after launch

[Jenarie]

<p>I still think we should be able to <b>re</b>-transmute.  </p><p>Something like:</p><p>10 fragments = 1 powder </p><p>1 powder = 2 fragments.</p>

[Domino]

And the verdict is ...no, your level compared to whatever it is you're breaking down, has no effect on whether you get a fragment, or a powder, or a {insert transmuting product here}.  That ratio is fixed regardless of your level.  The only thing the level difference affects while you're breaking down some item is your chance of a transmuting skill up (assuming you're still under 100 of course).  In that case it bottoms out at 25%, as has been noted elsewhere.

[Anordil]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>And the verdict is ...no, your level compared to whatever it is you're breaking down, has no effect on whether you get a fragment, or a powder, or a {insert transmuting product here}.  That ratio is fixed regardless of your level.  The only thing the level difference affects while you're breaking down some item is your chance of a transmuting skill up (assuming you're still under 100 of course).  In that case it bottoms out at 25%, as has been noted elsewhere.</blockquote>Thanks, Domino, for the information. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[DangerousOne]

Bah, Domino don't confuse us with facts.I must have transmuted literaly dozens of items and I *know* there is a difference. I assume you base your statement on looking at code and the results of thousands of transmuting.... how can you compare that to the evidence of my hunches <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Calthine]

/hands DangerousOne his hat:<img src="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/images/capofconspiracieseh3.jpg" alt="" border="0" />

[DizzyGee]

I - for one - do not doubt the statistical chances at receiving fragments vs. powders (no tin foil hat for me). It changes nothing, however, with the constant search for fragments because the recipes only require one powder and multiple fragments (and not in a ratio that matches the drop rates).After having leveled my transmuter up to lvl70 (325) I can say - without a doubt - that there is and will be a constant shortage of fragments while leveling up (simply because you need more of them than drop proportionally). My guess is that required amounts of fragments more or less match the drop rates in the first few tiers, but the discrepancy becomes noticeable (as I said) starting at about t4.Just sayin... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" /> 

[Emlar_from_Halas]

<p>Your statement is true Dizzy if you kept focusing on your highest Tier in order to progress. But you could have raised your transmut skill with only grey (T1) adornements, and you would have beg for powders then <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />But when you look at fragments and powders required in the day to day crafts, this is pretty well balanced.A T7 fabled adornement will consume 5 powders and as many fragments.And a T7 treasured one will consumme 1 powder and 4 fragments.After 10 months of T7 transmuting, I've rarely been in a situation where I was beging for fragments... Though it happened to me much more often to wish a mana <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Daine]

I have 7 crafters, all level 30+, and my main is a 70 sage.  She's working on her transmuting right now and boy is it broken.  I really want to level it so I'll be able to do adornments for my guild and eventually my own characters, but it's expensive and unpredictable as all heck.  I see a number of changes that could make it a lot better:1.  As mentioned above, the sudden switch between powder and fragment rate at tier 4 is ridiculous.  I have 6 alts of various tiers that all send me stuff to 'mute and I am nowhere near feeding my tier 4 addiction at the moment.  I've shelled out some decent plat to buy items and raws for it as well. I spend my muting time praying that I will get ONE of what I need SIX of for ONE recipe.  I think I have 5 powders and 2 fragments in my bank for tier 4 right now, leaving me 4 fragments short of making even ONE adornment.  Proportions between powders and fragments should be closer to what is needed for the recipes in the tier in question.2.  Calculations.  I can figure out what level I can transmute up to, but it could be simplified by adding 'levels' to it.  Perhaps when you mouse over your Transmuting skill in the persona window you could get a tooltip that pops up the maximum level you can transmute.3.  Maybe add the option (selectable by guild leaders) to display or save secondary tradeskill levels in the guild channel.  It takes, in my experience, a lot more effort and money to level as a transmuter than a sage.  However, while my sage levels can be broadcast to the guild and saved in the guild history, my transmuting levels cannot.  I'm sure tinkerers have the same issue too.  This seems to undermine the stamina and devotion it takes for a secondary tradeskill.4.  On a side note I kind of feel cheated as a transmuter.  I started transmuting, and then the Arasai came out with their racial bonus option for +5 muting, which saves a decent deal of supplies (sadly).  Also, I see items like the Tinkerer's Belt that add to tinkering skill, but haven't found anything for transmuting skill.  Maybe something could be added?5.  I know this isn't really constructive since I don't really have much of an idea how to fix it, but it really stinks that on the broker the weapon adornments are selling for less than they would to a merchant.  I always sell mine to merchants b/c there's no point in losing money by putting them up for players...the market is flooded with them and they're worthless.  Maybe make it so there's always a slight chance that your skill could go up just by 'muting an item, like it did 1-100.  That way the market wouldn't be AS flooded and transmuters could have some meager income for their expensive hobby.Not trying to complain here (except a bit in #4 there hehe), these are just some suggestions I think might help ease the frustration and 'time sink' factor of secondary tradeskills.  I know you're busy with Kunark for now, but I hope in the future these tradeskills can be tweaked a bit <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />

[MirageKnight]

Whatever the ratio is, this is still horrible rate to me.I currently have 892 T7 Fragments and 9 T7 Powder in stock.Bad part of these raws are lost value of item to vendor/broker and can't be use to anything else (unless getting more powder and use it.. but then more fragments... <endless depends on transmuter's luck> )Should have allow these raws to be usable to alter at least as for some other use of excessive raws.Re-Transmuting is another good idea to throw away these extreme excessive raws.And no, I have never sold/bought any fragments nor powders in broker after I have transmuted by myself for use.

[Calthine]

<cite>MirageKnight wrote:</cite><blockquote>And no, I have never sold/bought any fragments nor powders in broker after I have transmuted by myself for use. </blockquote>Now that I'm maxed I'll check the broken when I need components.  Sometimes it's cheaper to buy the fragments or whatever than it is to buy the stuff to transmute.  I'm cheap.

[NiamiDenMother]

The only tier in which I have an issue with fragments is tier 3, for some reason.  There's just something about that tier where I get more powder than the fragments needed to go with it.  In every other tier, hands-down, I run out of powder before I run out of fragments, and often have a stack or two of fragments left over.I have alts of varying levels, and I "munge" pretty much any drop that they don't personally use, as well as convert any rares into something to munge. (If it is a choice between crafting a rare jewelry item or an adept, I go the adept route, since I personally have better powder luck with them than with normal mastercrafted.)  I have quite the handy little stockpile of almost every tier of powder and fragments in case guildies or I need something specific made.Hrm, reminds me that I should actually grind the T1/T2 stuff again for skillups - she's only 328-ish.  {trundles off, mumbling}

[Daine]

Oh yeah I forgot the fix for the powder to fragment rate suggested above by Jenarie...make it so that you can change one into the other.  Would help a TON where we're having problems.  Maybe make it into a quest, like the alchemy quest to combine dusts.  For that matter it would be cool to see some secondary tradeskill writs <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />And Niami, my alts do the same.  I don't feel like level locking them and stagnating their personal growth so I can transmute, so I have them send me anything that isn't personally useful to them.  So do my fiance's alts although admittedly he doesn't play as much as me.  All in all that's 12 alts funneling treasureds to me and I STILL don't have enough in my bank right now to make ONE tier 4 adornment.  Chances are if I did, it wouldn't be one of the 15% of them that seems to give me a skill up.  Bit frustrating <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Kaboobu]

<p><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>And the verdict is ...no, your level compared to whatever it is you're breaking down, has no effect on whether you get a fragment, or a powder, or a {insert transmuting product here}.  That ratio is fixed regardless of your level.  The only thing the level difference affects while you're breaking down some item is your chance of a transmuting skill up (assuming you're still under 100 of course).  In that case it bottoms out at 25%, as has been noted elsewhere.</blockquote><p>Hiya Domino,</p><p>Does this post still hold up after the SF expansion?</p><p>With the new SF expansion, doesn't the extra transmuting skill (i.e. 450 +25) increase probability of getting a better adorning component, i.e. mana ? Like increasing your harvesting skill ?</p><p>Thanks,</p><p>P.S. was told this has been modified with the new SF expansion and just wanted to confirm that is the case.</p>