Tin and Iron arrows both t1 level PLEASE fix the ammo issue

[Lasai]

<p>Please, this needs looked at.</p><p>Tin arrows at level one, Iron at level 7.  Why start with 2 arrow recipes producing t1 common arrows?</p><p>then the progression goes by 10, leaving us with no t7 arrow at all.</p><p>This is just wrong, when I craft for a tier I expect the product to be that tier.</p><p>Secondly, throwing ammo is just as messed up, with no tin recipe at all that I can find.</p><p>Also, I created a new thread because </p><p>A. The topic on one thread was ambiguous</p><p>b. the discussion on that thread had turned to fansite database redo woes.</p><p>C. Desons "relevent" thread is discussing DAMAGE, not LEVEL</p><p>This can't just be buried and forgotton, we need to have the products of our recipes at least reflect the TIER of the recipe, and that tier-specific common raws produce products of that tier.</p>

[EQ2Magroo]

The reason you see it now, is that in the last patch the devs change the ammo display to show "7"..."27"..."57"...etc. rather than the previous "10"..."30"..."60" etc.The ammo is still the same quality, and still does the same damage etc.As any Ranger can testify, we've been complaining about the arrows for ages and the fact that T7 bows seem to be nerfed if using T7 ammo. The reason for this is a damage scaling algorithm at work which compares the level of your bow, with the level of your ammo and adjusts damage accordingly on your Auto-Attack damage. This makes sense though, otherwise Rangers would just run around using T1 crafted ammo rather than T7.Well, at least now the devs have shown us why it looked bad - what we though was T7 ammo is in reality T6.The devs in the past have taken the easy route by using a tier-1 approach, but failed to provide a solution for what happens when you reach level cap. It's not just arrows, but look at level 60 recipes that appear in level 59 books, and the same for 70. The reason for this is they couldn't put them in the 60/70 books as they didn't exist. I predict we'll see exactly the same stuff in RoK - level 80 spells in level 79 books. /sighUntil the devs get somebody to design their algorithms who can work out if tiers should run from 1-x0 or x0-x9, and how to cope with this when level cap is reached, I'm afraid we are going to be stuck with this sort of stuff...

[Lasai]

<cite>Adeyia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The reason you see it now, is that in the last patch the devs change the ammo display to show "7"..."27"..."57"...etc. rather than the previous "10"..."30"..."60" etc.The ammo is still the same quality, and still does the same damage etc.As any Ranger can testify, we've been complaining about the arrows for ages and the fact that T7 bows seem to be nerfed if using T7 ammo. The reason for this is a damage scaling algorithm at work which compares the level of your bow, with the level of your ammo and adjusts damage accordingly on your Auto-Attack damage. This makes sense though, otherwise Rangers would just run around using T1 crafted ammo rather than T7.Well, at least now the devs have shown us why it looked bad - what we though was T7 ammo is in reality T6.The devs in the past have taken the easy route by using a tier-1 approach, but failed to provide a solution for what happens when you reach level cap. It's not just arrows, but look at level 60 recipes that appear in level 59 books, and the same for 70. The reason for this is they couldn't put them in the 60/70 books as they didn't exist. I predict we'll see exactly the same stuff in RoK - level 80 spells in level 79 books. /sighUntil the devs get somebody to design their algorithms who can work out if tiers should run from 1-x0 or x0-x9, and how to cope with this when level cap is reached, I'm afraid we are going to be stuck with this sort of stuff...</blockquote>Well they blew it, as an existing t1 tin arrow, Level 1, plus 10 would change the progression to what it should be, 11, 21,31, etc.  This is pretty unexcusable. As you say, regardless of the damage the game sees lower tier ammo and adjusts downward for that.

[EQ2Magroo]

In my view all they needed to do was start the ammo off at level 7...so it goes 7, 17, 27, 37, 47, 57, 67. That's 7 tiers of ammo, and would mean that level 70 players are not nerfed with their bow damage.There are already mechanisms in game to stop people using ammo above their level, so the only downsides to the above fix would be:1. Level 1-6 players won't be able to use any player made ammo. I don't see it being a problem for NPC vendors to sell some level 1 tin arrows which they can use.2. Reaching a new tier would mean you have to wait another 7 levels before being able to use the ammo you need.3. This would in effect be a "nerf" to autoattack, as we've just moved the ammo tiers up a notch and you'd be doing less damage until you hit x7.Overall however, I think the perfect solution is very simple. What I'd like to see as the solution is to treat player made ammo the same way as Mastercrafted stuff. i.e. make it kick in at 'x2' level. i.e. 2, 12, 22, 32, 42, 52, 62.NPC made ammo should be 1/10/20/30/40/50/60 and of course, its stats would be in keeping with this.Low level players would only had to ding once before they could use player made arrows, so this wouldnt be an issue. They could just buy T1 NPC stuff for the 3 kills it would probably take to ding.When entering a new tier, e.g. T3 you would only have to gain 2 levels before you could get the appropriate ammo ( this is axactly the situation you have now with mastercrafted armor/weapons/poisons.) If you wanted to use the T3 vendor stuff you could do so at level 20, but its stats would likely be the same/worse than the previous tier MC (same as current armor/weapon/poison setup)The damage scaling algorithm on bow auto-attack damage needs its effective range increased to 8 levels. So a lvl 70 bow using level 62 ammo does 100% of its predicted damage.The devs would also need to look at how this affects the T8 summoned ammo. By calling it T8 summoned, it implies it should be level 70, but I don't think it would cause too many problems to flag it as 70 (it may be already, I've never seen any though so can't tell for sure). Of course, it would have much better stats than the T8 NPC ammo from RoK, and slightly better than T8 MC I would guess too.

[ZeroRavesOn]

<cite>Adeyia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The devs in the past have taken the easy route by using a tier-1 approach, but failed to provide a solution for what happens when you reach level cap. It's not just arrows, but look at level 60 recipes that appear in level 59 books, and the same for 70. The reason for this is they couldn't put them in the 60/70 books as they didn't exist. I predict we'll see exactly the same stuff in RoK - level 80 spells in level 79 books. /sighUntil the devs get somebody to design their algorithms who can work out if tiers should run from 1-x0 or x0-x9, and how to cope with this when level cap is reached, I'm afraid we are going to be stuck with this sort of stuff... </blockquote>As a criticism to this point alone, they could have easily chosen to create level 60 books in desert of flames for example, but I assume they didn't in order to let us gain experience during level 59.  Personally, I don't see that as better design, since it lets you benefit beyond just making the combine and being compensated for it.As for arrows, the easiest solution would probably be to stick in a new recipe that yields lvl 67 arrows in t7 to plug the hole, allowing t8 ammo to be lvl 77.  This way, it doesn't require a major rework of how ammo works, and just works within the existing damage algorithm.  Right now, the system isn't broken, just needs a slight correction.