New Bruiser Questions ..

[SisterTheresa]

<p>Hey all.  Please be patient while I try and say everything I want to here.</p><p>I made a Bruiser to play with my SO (who is a SK)</p><p>Now ... after reading these boards (which I promised not to do but with some recent updates I did) many are crying that Bruisers are not wanted in raids/broken etc.</p><p>Well I really don't want to reroll my Bruiser (he's almost level 30 with full AQ armor right now)</p><p>Here are my questions:</p><p>1.  What exactly IS a Bruiser?  DPS?  Off Tank?  An extra slot filled for a group?  Can't seem to get a straight answer.</p><p>2.  When playing with my SO's SK, and occasionally doing city writs that need a raid group what exactly shout I put my AA points into?  Being an Arasai, my STR and STA are not very good.  I can get my AGI high (mostly from my AQ armor I think) but what should I do with my AA?  Any suggestions with reasons would be most helpful.</p><p>3. Are we REALLY worthless and unwanted in raids?  My guild leader says that alot and from what I read on the boards is the same.  Not like I will be a real hard core raider, but if I want to get the Prismatic done and other high end stuff, I will have to raid.  Would I be able to get into one or would I have to really start begging?</p><p>4. What exactly is the most important stat on Bruisers?  STR is their power pool I know, and since we are leather wearers I would think AGI would be in there.</p><p>Thanks for the suggestions.</p>

[tt66]

Firstly, let me just emphasize that when you see us ranting that we're not wanted, broken etc.. we are only talking about raids. Bruisers are a wonderful addition to any group doing heroic content. It's only when raiding that our disadvantages become apparent.So if nothing else, you've got a good 40 levels of fun to look forward to. Congratulations! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />When responding to your questions, I will be referring to our role in raids, rather than groups. Also, I'll be referring to your average bruiser in average gear in an average raid. (Yes, I know anyone can tank, say, Tarinax. But in an average raid, it's better that you leave it to a plate MT than do it yourself.)1) We're basically dps, without the advantages of being an actual dps class. We have a decent raid-wide buff (+90 ca damage, +20% taunt/detaunt effectiveness) and that's about it. We have a few tricks up our sleeve (FD, drag, the occasional intercede/stonedeaf) but nothing that screams out "we must have a bruiser in our raid". If for some bizarre reason there are only two fighters on the raid then you might have to take an OT role, but it's very unlikely.2) As far as AA go, you may as well spec for DPS. My recommendation would be to go 4/4/8/6/2 in both STR and INT KOS lines and then fill out the knockout EOF line. There are many AA discussions on the board, but essentially STR is the best leveling spec, and the crit% bonus from INT can't be beaten. Once you hit 70, you might prefer to get a weapon and go WIS/INT (as most do) or AGI/INT (if you raid a lot). 3) It's not that we're worthless, it's just that we don't do anything another class can't do better. Other classes can dps better than us, and all the plate tanks can MT better than us. Hell, some plate tanks can do <i>both</i> better than us! You'll never see a raid looking for a brawler, but you may well be able to get in if they're just looking for more people to fill a space.There you go, that's not a bad slogan. "<b>Brawler : better than an empty raid space</b>".4) Str is the most important stat. Because frankly, you're not going to be dodging much or (hopefully) taking anything other than AoE damage. So load up on str, with agi and sta being secondary.

[Novusod]

On paper it seems like Brawlers should be able to tank because of our avoidance if we have enough AGI. The difference between regular mobs and epics is that the epic will ignore our avoidance. This is why a lot of brawlers say they are broken.Just last night I attended a halls of seeing raid and we did not have our normal second plate tank to off tank so they asked me to fill the role. On the second named the Overseer of Captivity has a very powerful add called the Enforcer of Captivity. The guild normally will split the encounter and have the main tank hold the Overseer and an off-tank hold the Enforcer. Well the enforcer killed me in 3 seconds and then wiped the raid. Bottom line is the brawler is a tank that can't tank. There has been some effort on the part of the devs to give us a dps and utility edge over the plate tanks but if we can't tank what's the point?

[SisterTheresa]

<p>Great suggestions so far!  Thanks.</p><p>Lots to learn, lots to look up ...</p><p>Love that new slogan ... gonna put that in my siggy!</p>

[Wy]

It just seems silly to me that they haven't fixed avoidance tanking. When I started playing EQ2 I was coming from raiding in WoW, where rogues pop their evasion (for a ridiculous amount of 'avoidance' that lasts a very desperate few seconds) as we wipe in desperate hopes that 5 seconds of dodge tanking will save the raid, and sometimes it does. I come here and I read about bruisers, sorta down the middle but mostly a tank, and I think "wow, that idea sounds kick [Removed for Content]. I wouldn't mind being a tank on raids either." and I feel like the description of the class is just bait for a failed experience once you get to the end game. It's like being offered candy with slow acting poison in it. *scowls* From what I'm seeing, it isn't quick getting to 70, nevermind geared out for raids, and the last thing I'd want to do, particularly on my first character, is go through all that effort just to find out SoE decided that the very thing they told us makes us worthwhile, that being our avoidance, is absolutely worthless if we want to see anything SoE has made for the 'in-depth' raiding dungeons. I'm upset, and already starting to level a Shadowknight on the side because I'm starting to feel that when I hit 70, my bruiser is going to be farming money, but she won't be raiding, which I 'do' want to do to some extent.

[Madmoon]

<cite>SisterTheresa wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Now ... after reading these boards (which I promised not to do but with some recent updates I did) ....</p></blockquote><p>Should have stuck to your guns... a very wise poster once wrote, if you want to hate your class, go to the class boards.</p><p>As to raiding, bruisers want a role in raids, which has been - to some extent - granted.  We help with Aggro management, and we increase all CAs raid-wide.  These changes have been met with pleasure by some, others see them as still not enough.  The important thing to realize is that <b>all the brawlers whining about raiding, raid</b>.  They just want the auto-invite ability that gets all the DPSers in, and specifically to fighters, gets plateheads invitations as lead fighters in EoF x4 end-game raids.  If you want to raid, you will raid.  If you want to be the lead fighter in a raid, you will be, except in EoF end-game x4 raids.  99% of the content of the game will be available to you, whether as a fighter(tank) or a damage dealer.</p><p>I would recommend STA, as far as gear and the like (racial abilities, etc.)  We self-buff our STR and AGI very high, STA is only through buffs from group memebers or our gear/racial traits.  Increasing AGI by 20, for example, only increases Avoidance by a little AND Avoidance is not working as well as one might think.  You can boost Avoidance through the roof, you still won't be able to stand up as long as a platehead against a strong raid boss.  You'll get hit almost as much as a pure mitigation set-up, and it will land for more.  INT and WIS can remain a distant fourth to STR-STA-AGI.Bottom line, though, is you will enjoy being a bruiser quite a bit.  We add great abilities to groups small and large, and we solo v-e-r-y well.  Just take all the board-whine with a large grain of salt and have fun.  Find out for yourself what you can do as a bruiser, and avoid the experts.</p>

[Novusod]

Well if you consider Labs and Lyceum 99% of the end game yeah you will get to raid and see the end game two years after every other class got to clear it.

[SisterTheresa]

<cite>Wyxt wrote:</cite><blockquote>It just seems silly to me that they haven't fixed avoidance tanking. When I started playing EQ2 I was coming from raiding in WoW, where rogues pop their evasion (for a ridiculous amount of 'avoidance' that lasts a very desperate few seconds) as we wipe in desperate hopes that 5 seconds of dodge tanking will save the raid, and sometimes it does. I come here and I read about bruisers, sorta down the middle but mostly a tank, and I think "wow, that idea sounds kick [I cannot control my vocabulary]. I wouldn't mind being a tank on raids either." and I feel like the description of the class is just bait for a failed experience once you get to the end game. It's like being offered candy with slow acting poison in it. *scowls* From what I'm seeing, it isn't quick getting to 70, nevermind geared out for raids, and the last thing I'd want to do, particularly on my first character, is go through all that effort just to find out SoE decided that the very thing they told us makes us worthwhile, that being our avoidance, is absolutely worthless if we want to see anything SoE has made for the 'in-depth' raiding dungeons. I'm upset, and already starting to level a Shadowknight on the side because I'm starting to feel that when I hit 70, my bruiser is going to be farming money, but she won't be raiding, which I 'do' want to do to some extent.</blockquote>Sorry you feel that way .. but that doesn't help me in any way with my questions.  Good try though!

[SisterTheresa]

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I would recommend STA, as far as gear and the like (racial abilities, etc.)  We self-buff our STR and AGI very high, STA is only through buffs from group memebers or our gear/racial traits.  Increasing AGI by 20, for example, only increases Avoidance by a little AND Avoidance is not working as well as one might think.  You can boost Avoidance through the roof, you still won't be able to stand up as long as a platehead against a strong raid boss.  You'll get hit almost as much as a pure mitigation set-up, and it will land for more.  INT and WIS can remain a distant fourth to STR-STA-AGI.Bottom line, though, is you will enjoy being a bruiser quite a bit.  We add great abilities to groups small and large, and we solo v-e-r-y well.  Just take all the board-whine with a large grain of salt and have fun.  Find out for yourself what you can do as a bruiser, and avoid the experts.</p></blockquote>Yeah I have been looking for more STA accessories, as so far much of my gear has AGI on it.  I have a bit of problems soloing, but I might need to upgrade my combat arts.

[Madmoon]

If you are soloing heroics, yes, better gear and better Arts will help.  However, if you are fighting the normal content out there, I would work on style first.  For example, look at what sequence your arts are in; some require precedence.  One of our attacks needs you to be flanking or at the rear.  Make sure you start a fight with a stun, quickly get around back and hit him in the kidneys.  If the stun fails, there is another sequence, one attack knocks him down, the next knocks him down and does extra damage if he's nocked down, and if the first stun missed, I generally get my kidney punch in third.  Make sure you use your self-heal early in a fight, whenever you get low enough to justify it.  Don't wait until you are all the way in the red.  In a longer fight, it will often be ready a second time, especially if you can squeeze a few second out of our stun/fear.  I had one, maybe two Master CAs before my 50s.  I got to the mid-fifties on App4 and Adept 1, but once I had the techniques down, the Masters then let me take on more complex targets, raids, etc.

[Soulforged_Unre]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>On paper it seems like Brawlers should be able to tank because of our avoidance if we have enough AGI. The difference between regular mobs and epics is that the epic will ignore our avoidance. This is why a lot of brawlers say they are broken.Just last night I attended a halls of seeing raid and we did not have our normal second plate tank to off tank so they asked me to fill the role. On the second named the Overseer of Captivity has a very powerful add called the Enforcer of Captivity. The guild normally will split the encounter and have the main tank hold the Overseer and an off-tank hold the Enforcer. Well the enforcer killed me in 3 seconds and then wiped the raid. Bottom line is the brawler is a tank that can't tank. There has been some effort on the part of the devs to give us a dps and utility edge over the plate tanks but if we can't tank what's the point?</blockquote><p><span class="postbody">I dont know about you, but my guild went into HoS, and I was the one to tank the enforcer, and i was able to keep alive and keep him on me till he died......Also we go into FTH every week, and every week we take down the second named with me tanking it, i have good healers, like i'm sure you do, but my health would rarely go below 40-50%.But I do get what youre saying, these are remote encounters, and unless the raid knows that I'm going to be tanking a mob, i wont be able to stay up for more than 5 or 6 seconds, there are almost no tricks that a bruiser has to stay alive when theyre getting pounded on. In groups, our stuns are effective, and our burst dps as well as offtanking or tanking heroics(where our avoidance matters), makes us an appreciated class. But in raids, we tank like a [Removed for Content] scout, and our dps is T2 at best, even though in my guild my dps is usually in the top 5 or so.</span></p><p><span class="postbody">Basically: in raids and against epics, bruisers are gimped as fighters and dps, but not as bad as most people say.</span></p>

[Soulforged_Unre]

<p><cite></cite></p><p><cite>SisterTheresa wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hey all.  Please be patient while I try and say everything I want to here.</p><p>I made a Bruiser to play with my SO (who is a SK)</p><p>Now ... after reading these boards (which I promised not to do but with some recent updates I did) many are crying that Bruisers are not wanted in raids/broken etc.</p><p>Well I really don't want to reroll my Bruiser (he's almost level 30 with full AQ armor right now)</p><p>Here are my questions:</p><p>1.  What exactly IS a Bruiser?  DPS?  Off Tank?  An extra slot filled for a group?  Can't seem to get a straight answer.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3333;"> typically a bruiser is a T2 dps class, rarely will they be asked to tank anything epic because our avoidance to epics is contested, and pretty much worthless.</span></p><p>2.  When playing with my SO's SK, and occasionally doing city writs that need a raid group what exactly shout I put my AA points into?  Being an Arasai, my STR and STA are not very good.  I can get my AGI high (mostly from my AQ armor I think) but what should I do with my AA?  Any suggestions with reasons would be most helpful.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3333;">My AA setup is sta4-4-1, int 4-4-8, wis 4-4-8-6-1, gives me crane flock, and the proc in sta and the melee crit in int. However filling out the wis and int lines is likely as well, i just didnt get the last one in int because i dont spend too much time below 30% health, completely different if youre leveling up though, and likely a worthy spend. </span></p><p>3. Are we REALLY worthless and unwanted in raids?  My guild leader says that alot and from what I read on the boards is the same.  Not like I will be a real hard core raider, but if I want to get the Prismatic done and other high end stuff, I will have to raid.  Would I be able to get into one or would I have to really start begging?</p><p><span style="color: #ff3333;">Played properly, we can be 2-2.5k dps, but thats with quite good gear, and otherwise we flitter around at approx 1.5k. we *can* tank epics if we have enough buffs.....but any class can say that, so nothing special there. But we aren't always useless on raids.</span></p><p>4. What exactly is the most important stat on Bruisers?  STR is their power pool I know, and since we are leather wearers I would think AGI would be in there.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3333;">STR/STA/AGI, str affects how much damage you put out, sta affects how much HP you have, AGI affects how well you avoid. You have to find a comfortable balance there, if you have too much str and not enough of the others, sure you can do the damage, but if you get agro, or get an aoe, you'll get shredded (WIS helps your resists, but not too much, buffs do that better....), if you have too much sta and less of the others, you'll survive the hits, but your dps will take a dive. AGI against epics isnt too important for us i think considering how most epics just ignore avoidance and hit you anyway. Basically you need a balance that lets you live through aoe's, and lets you do enough damage to remain useful. AGI is useful to have against heroics though, so if you plan on doing single group content as well as raiding, you should stock up on some of that too..</span></p><p>Thanks for the suggestions.</p></blockquote>

[Novusod]

<cite>Soulforged_Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>On paper it seems like Brawlers should be able to tank because of our avoidance if we have enough AGI. The difference between regular mobs and epics is that the epic will ignore our avoidance. This is why a lot of brawlers say they are broken.Just last night I attended a halls of seeing raid and we did not have our normal second plate tank to off tank so they asked me to fill the role. On the second named the Overseer of Captivity has a very powerful add called the Enforcer of Captivity. The guild normally will split the encounter and have the main tank hold the Overseer and an off-tank hold the Enforcer. Well the enforcer killed me in 3 seconds and then wiped the raid. Bottom line is the brawler is a tank that can't tank. There has been some effort on the part of the devs to give us a dps and utility edge over the plate tanks but if we can't tank what's the point?</blockquote><p><span class="postbody">I dont know about you, but my guild went into HoS, and I was the one to tank the enforcer, and i was able to keep alive and keep him on me till he died......Also we go into FTH every week, and every week we take down the second named with me tanking it, i have good healers, like i'm sure you do, but my health would rarely go below 40-50%.But I do get what youre saying, these are remote encounters, and unless the raid knows that I'm going to be tanking a mob, i wont be able to stay up for more than 5 or 6 seconds, there are almost no tricks that a bruiser has to stay alive when theyre getting pounded on. In groups, our stuns are effective, and our burst dps as well as offtanking or tanking heroics(where our avoidance matters), makes us an appreciated class. But in raids, we tank like a [Removed for Content] scout, and our dps is T2 at best, even though in my guild my dps is usually in the top 5 or so.</span></p><p><span class="postbody">Basically: in raids and against epics, bruisers are gimped as fighters and dps, but not as bad as most people say.</span></p></blockquote>Hey if I could <span style="color: #cc0000;">tank as good as you say you can</span> I wouldn't be here and in other forum threads saying brawlers are broken. Last night the guild got a rare pull on the three princes and the other bruiser (not me) couldn't tank it either.

[Madmoon]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey if I could <span style="color: #cc0000;">tank as good as you say you can</span> I wouldn't be here and in other forum threads saying brawlers are broken. </blockquote><p>Don't derail the OP's thread with this tedious tripe again.  Brawlers aren't "broken."  There're issues, but ... hasn't this been harped enough?  If you're so down on brawlers, go find something you do like.  24 classes.  A boatload of races.  Gotta be a combo in there you like.  In the meantime, educate SisterTheresa on what he/she can do.  But stop the derailing whining, for the love of Zek.</p><p>RedmouserBruiser, AB</p>

[ddisca]

<p>well...ok...</p><p>i dont raid yet...and maybe bruisers are "broken" in raid cause epics ignore avoidance, but for the love of my toon im sure i can find a good use of it for my guild...</p><p>enough said...</p><p> Kyal : 44 Bruiser</p>

[Greavous]

<p>God I am sick of all this crap about Bruisers not being able to tank Epics. Is it easier for a Guard or Zerka or even a Pally to tank them I would say yes. I have a 70 Guard and I find tanking on him a snooze. I love playing my Bruiser a lot more in raids because it's a challenge and there are things I can do that no other tank can. We CAN tank epics and I do regularly. We have 2 great plate tanks in raid and do a great job but sometimes crap happens and the trusty Bruiser steps up and saves the day. Some times if one of the tanks are not around I will OT and we aren't talking HoS or Labs or .... We will destroy FTH or MMIS or EH with me as off tank and tanking most of the mobs at one time or another. I grab Blood beast most of the time and when Wuoshi goes on walk abouts I drag his [Removed for Content] back into position.</p><p>If you're a Bruiser and you can't tank epics then you need to respect your AA line and get good gear (if you want to raid). High end raid zones aren't there for people to just walk in off the street and go smash. It takes a lot of work and time to get to a place where you can survive and win.</p><p>Don't believe the ranting of those who want an easy raid toon. Is it hard to get to a stage as a Bruiser to be able to tank Epics. Hell yes.</p><p>Is it impossible. Hell no.</p><p>Do I like it that way.</p>You betya

[tt66]

<cite>Greavous wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>God I am sick of all this crap about Bruisers not being able to tank Epics. Is it easier for a Guard or Zerka or even a Pally to tank them I would say yes. I have a 70 Guard and I find tanking on him a snooze. I love playing my Bruiser a lot more in raids because it's a challenge and there are things I can do that no other tank can. We CAN tank epics and I do regularly. We have 2 great plate tanks in raid and do a great job but sometimes crap happens and the trusty Bruiser steps up and saves the day. Some times if one of the tanks are not around I will OT and we aren't talking HoS or Labs or .... We will destroy FTH or MMIS or EH with me as off tank and tanking most of the mobs at one time or another. I grab Blood beast most of the time and when Wuoshi goes on walk abouts I drag his [I cannot control my vocabulary] back into position.</p><p>If you're a Bruiser and you can't tank epics then you need to respect your AA line and get good gear (if you want to raid). High end raid zones aren't there for people to just walk in off the street and go smash. It takes a lot of work and time to get to a place where you can survive and win. </p></blockquote>Well now. I'm probably getting a reputation for nay-saying, so it's nice to see a bruiser doing well as a tank. (Even if, as you say, we do it worse than any other fighter). But I'm really rather curious.. you've mentioned in a couple of posts today that your AAs are "tank specc'd". Could you possibly clarify that? Especially the EoF AAs. Does this mean that you actually have Retribution of Stone? And why did you choose that over Control Hate? (I'm assuming from the above quote that you have Drag)

[Greavous]

<p>K tt66 firstly not once did I say we tank worse than any other fighter. Players tank worse not classes. I said the other tank classes were easier. May not be a big point to u but speaks volumes about the attitude behind the statement..</p><p>Not sure why you would think that the conditioning line was THE tanking line with Retribution of stone being something worth having. The only points in that line go to our heal and a few spare ones in Vigorous Spirit. </p><p>I have gone to the bottom of attention for the mini rescue and obviously Drag.</p><p>The Brawler tree I've tried so many different builds its not funny. Most Bruisers who want nice dps seem to like a combination of Str/Wiz/Int. The Int  line is a must for all Brawlers to at lest the melee crits. I've gone to the bottom because of 2 reasons. Firstly because when I solo I like to stay under 30% health so I get the 75% crit and when I'm being hit by Epics the first 3-5 seconds of the fight is the hardest for a Bruiser to take. After the mob is debuffed and that pesky Arcane dot is taken off you the rest of the fight isn't hard at all. </p><p>I sit as close to 80% avoidance as possible in raids when I'm tanking and only move to Defensive stance in EOF raid zones.</p><p>Tanking with a Bruiser is all about what you can and can't do. </p><p>If you can't do something you need to find a way around it or step aside. Some times I have to step aside.</p><p>Until Epics and contested avoidance are changed we are always gonna have problems tanking in hard core raid zones.</p><p>That doesn't mean it's impossible, just tough</p><p>Guess what</p><p>Bruisers are tough</p>

[tt66]

Not quite sure what the distinction between "It's easier to tank as a Guard, Berserker or a Paladin than a Bruiser" and"Bruisers aren't as good at tanking as Guards, Berserkers or Paladins" is. But, as I say, if you're having success as a Bruiser tank then good luck to you.I certainly don't think that the conditioning line is THE tanking line, in fact I think it's terrible. It's just that everyone I know seems to pick up Control Hate, Drag and the self-heal so I was wondering if you were doing anything different that you were terming a "tank spec".I'm also wondering why, when you're obviously aware that avoidance-based tanks suffer badly in the high-end raid zones, that you call these concerns "crap"?

[Greavous]

<p>Firstly I'm not going to get into the use of certain words to create an emotional response. If you don't see the difference between not as easy and worse then I'll just leave it because you will never see.</p><p>Just so you know, the Bruiser line is not where you spec ether dps or tanking.</p><p>It's all about the Brawler tree. I gave you one line I've gone down and the reasons behind that. It's taken me a long time to get the right mix, maybe if you're really interested you should try then out as well.</p><p>I call [Removed for Content] on the way you express yourself tt66. You say I'm calling concerns crap. No I'm calling the whinging and whining crap. You really think SoE is going to listen to a class of people complaining every day. If you don't like playing a Bruiser because </p><p>A: we don't do enough dps - go roll a Assassin </p><p>B: we can't tank Epics easily - go roll a Guard</p><p>SoE are aware there are issues with contested avoidance and Epics, They have made it very difficult for them selves to change it easily.</p><p>Do I want a few changes to the Bruiser and contested avoidance? Hell yes I do.</p><p>Would I like to have a jump in dps compared to other tank classes? Of course </p><p>But bleating about it and making us out to be some weakassed class is wrong and irresponsible.</p><p>Be proud of being a Bruiser or pissoff</p>

[Madmoon]

<cite>Greavous wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Firstly I'm not going to get into the use of certain words to create an emotional response. If you don't see the difference between not as easy and worse then I'll just leave it because you will never see.</p><p>Just so you know, the Bruiser line is not where you spec ether dps or tanking.</p><p>It's all about the Brawler tree. I gave you one line I've gone down and the reasons behind that. It's taken me a long time to get the right mix, maybe if you're really interested you should try then out as well.</p><p>I call [I cannot control my vocabulary] on the way you express yourself tt66. You say I'm calling concerns crap. No I'm calling the whinging and whining crap. You really think SoE is going to listen to a class of people complaining every day. If you don't like playing a Bruiser because </p><p>A: we don't do enough dps - go roll a Assassin </p><p>B: we can't tank Epics easily - go roll a Guard</p><p>SoE are aware there are issues with contested avoidance and Epics, They have made it very difficult for them selves to change it easily.</p><p>Do I want a few changes to the Bruiser and contested avoidance? Hell yes I do.</p><p>Would I like to have a jump in dps compared to other tank classes? Of course </p><p>But bleating about it and making us out to be some weakassed class is wrong and irresponsible.</p><p>Be proud of being a Bruiser or pissoff</p></blockquote><p>I completely agree with you!  And no matter how many times people have posted how they are having success in raids, even in detail, there's still this steady drumbeat.  It's gotten to the point where they can only reference the last bit of the game, end-game EoF raids.  Like the rest of the time we're just lucky, or something.</p><p>But I'd still seriously give yoga or long walks a try.  Hoooo!  tt66 generally just asks and responds intelligently, thoughtfully even.  If you really want to hear whines, he's not the one to go off on.  Give the threads labeled "Making Avoidance Tanks as effective as Mit Tanks in a Raid is "Really Risky" or "<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=360574" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">At What Point Are We Going to Get Fixed?</a>" a look for real whiners.</p><p>Redmouser</p>

[Greavous]

<p>Yeah your probably right Madmoon.</p><p>I'm unfairly dumping all the Bruiser sux stuff I've been putting up with for so long on the easiest target, so Sorry tt66.</p><p>I just get [Removed for Content] with peeps trying to make my class sound [Removed for Content]</p>

[tt66]

<cite>Greavous wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Yeah your probably right Madmoon.</p><p>I'm unfairly dumping all the Bruiser sux stuff I've been putting up with for so long on the easiest target, so Sorry tt66.</p><p>I just get [Removed for Content] with peeps trying to make my class sound [Removed for Content]</p></blockquote>Ah, don't worry about it. I'd much rather discuss my class with someone who loves it, rather than with that poxy Assassin who keeps yelling that we should be nerfed. Just watch them unlocked AE insults <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />As often seems to be the case, I don't think we're really in disagreement here, it's mainly a question of degrees. We all share the same common ground as regards to how we should be comparing to other fighters in terms of DPS and avoidance. Lets keep focussed on that.Let's be honest, if we didn't love our bruisers and were only interested in the flavor of the month, we'd all have rerolled swashbucklers by now! But there's nothing wrong with acknowledging the limitations and downsides of our class, and asking SoE to look at the more blatant misbalances. And, when they ignore us, or tell us that to fix things would be "<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=376799" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">really risky</a>", we point out the flaws in their assumptions, repeat our logic and <b>keep</b> asking them. It's not really in our nature to go softly into the night, now is it?

[Novusod]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Greavous wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Yeah your probably right Madmoon.</p><p>I'm unfairly dumping all the Bruiser sux stuff I've been putting up with for so long on the easiest target, so Sorry tt66.</p><p>I just get [Removed for Content] with peeps trying to make my class sound [Removed for Content]</p></blockquote>Ah, don't worry about it. I'd much rather discuss my class with someone who loves it, rather than with that poxy Assassin who keeps yelling that we should be nerfed. Just watch them unlocked AE insults <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />As often seems to be the case, I don't think we're really in disagreement here, it's mainly a question of degrees. We all share the same common ground as regards to how we should be comparing to other fighters in terms of DPS and avoidance. Lets keep focussed on that.<span style="color: #cc0000;">Let's be honest, if we didn't love our bruisers and were only interested in the flavor of the month, we'd all have rerolled <b>swashbucklers</b> by now!</span> But there's nothing wrong with acknowledging the limitations and downsides of our class, and asking SoE to look at the more blatant misbalances. And, when they ignore us, or tell us that to fix things would be "<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=376799" target="_blank">really risky</a>", we point out the flaws in their assumptions, repeat our logic and <b>keep</b> asking them. It's not really in our nature to go softly into the night, now is it?</blockquote>Way a head of you man. I can't level my swashbuckler fast enough.

[Greavous]

<p>Hehe my Swashy just hit 63 (and it's a blast) but my Bruiser will always be my main. Raid leader wouldn't allow me to change any way.</p><p>What I think a lot of Bruisers really miss about their class is the ability to change with the fight better than any toon around.</p><p>If the MT goes down, even an average Bruiser can pick it up and hold it till the MT is back up and buffed.</p><p>If the MT loses agro and the Mob flys off and starts hitting on the casters, there is no other class than can grab that mob and drag is straight back to the MT without missing a beat.</p><p>We can burst dps Mobs that need quick take downs from 10% and have a good solid dps parse if not tanking. </p><p>We can intercept damage off the MT and take no damage if the damage is spell based, and if not heal our selves instantly.</p><p>We FD to get targets for long pet pulls and to pick up wipes (it's a long way to floor 3 in the EH's)</p><p>We have got to be the busiest class in a raid and fill so many roles a good Bruiser has to be a good player. </p><p>I have seen many very bad players start a Bruiser and give them away after lvl 50 because you have to understand your class more and more as you lvl.</p>I am sick of SoE making this game easier and easier and I'm glad it's a tough ask to play a Bruiser at the high end.

[Madmoon]

<p>Bruiser =  Batman</p><p>Swashies = Robin</p>

[Ranja]

<cite>Wyxt wrote:</cite><blockquote>It just seems silly to me that they haven't fixed avoidance tanking. When I started playing EQ2 I was coming from raiding in WoW, where rogues pop their evasion (for a ridiculous amount of 'avoidance' that lasts a very desperate few seconds) as we wipe in desperate hopes that 5 seconds of dodge tanking will save the raid, and sometimes it does. I come here and I read about bruisers, sorta down the middle but mostly a tank, and I think "wow, that idea sounds kick [I cannot control my vocabulary]. I wouldn't mind being a tank on raids either." and I feel like the description of the class is just bait for a failed experience once you get to the end game. It's like being offered candy with slow acting poison in it. *scowls* From what I'm seeing, it isn't quick getting to 70, nevermind geared out for raids, and the last thing I'd want to do, particularly on my first character, is go through all that effort just to find out SoE decided that the very thing they told us makes us worthwhile, that being our avoidance, is absolutely worthless if we want to see anything SoE has made for the 'in-depth' raiding dungeons.<b> I'm upset, and already starting to level a Shadowknight on</b> the side because I'm starting to feel that when I hit 70, my bruiser is going to be farming money, but she won't be raiding, which I 'do' want to do to some extent. </blockquote>Sorry man but a SK is in the same boat. They are not wanted at 70 and in raids either. If you want to raid and be a tank you need to be a zerker or guardian. Just the way it is.