Devs... Can you please look at Sandstorm!

[Vanilla1]

<p>Hi</p><p>I am writing this because I am finding that the Duststorm/Sandstorm Spell is completely useless. I was very excited about getting this spell, but have tried in virtually every situation, with no success.</p><p>All i seem to do is finish the battle with less power, and even sometimes less help. I tried using when i get a group of mobs on me, but i seem to lose health quicker, maybe due to spores procing less... i am not sure... but it just seems so much better without it. This spell is meant to be one of our class "goody" spells, and really does not cut it. Even on very tough mobs it just seems to really use my power quicker, for no real return. This is soling mainly in all fairness.</p><p>I dont mind the root component, it just seems that for power use and lack of effectivness, I am gonna end up deleting what is meant to be one of the class defining spells. Sure I can live without it, but would be nice if the Devs took a look at this spell, and maybe tried to make it more usefull. Admittedly only used soling so far, but i cant even really see it would be that good in a groyp setting.</p><p>Opinions anyone?</p><p>Ghostwolf<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<p>Could you be a bit more specific about what isn't happening that makes you unhappy with the spell?   It's definitely situational, and does take a significant amount of power, but isn't (IMO) useless.</p><p>Let us know a bit about what's not working for you, so we can help.</p>

[InfiniteFidelity]

<cite>Arielle Nightshade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Could you be a bit more specific about what isn't happening that makes you unhappy with the spell?   It's definitely situational, and does take a significant amount of power, but isn't (IMO) useless.</p><p>Let us know a bit about what's not working for you, so we can </p></blockquote>I use Sandstorm in PVP ALL the time...saves my butt agains swashies when I'm solo..and greatly decreases the DPS of an enemy group in a group vs group fight.

[Arielle Nightshade]

<cite>Darkenn@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arielle Nightshade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Could you be a bit more specific about what isn't happening that makes you unhappy with the spell?   It's definitely situational, and does take a significant amount of power, but isn't (IMO) useless.</p><p>Let us know a bit about what's not working for you, so we can </p></blockquote>I use Sandstorm in PVP ALL the time...saves my butt agains swashies when I'm solo..and greatly decreases the DPS of an enemy group in a group vs group fight.</blockquote><p>Me too - it rips up a melee class.  The only reason I could see that someone might think it's not worth it is if they fight primarily caster classes that don't melee (NPC or PK) - then it's good for defense, but you are not seeing it's full potential.   Hence my question to the OP....what's it not doing that it should do, or what aren't you seeing that you think should happen.</p><p>Darkenn, my biggest campaign for Sandstorm is that if it roots us while casting, it should ROOT us...ie, if I'm knocked back, Im stunned, maybe, but not moved from where I am rooted.   In pvp it always sucks to be rooted, cast this spell, be knocked down a hill or whatever, and have to take the few moments needed to click it off to get back into healing range.   That's my pettest peeve about the spell, but agree with you that it's invaluable in most situations.</p>

[Vanilla1]

<p>Hi</p><p>Thanks to everyone for coming onto the thread as I am looking for advise to use it. To be honest, I really want to like it, and was very excited about getting it.</p><p>I'll try to be more specific so that you guys are able to help me more on this one. Now I like the knock back effect, and oviously love the fact my defence goes up, so logically i should love it... but just just seem to find that if i dont use it, i do much better. </p><p>I read a post a few pages back about it and alot of people sorta said it was not too good, and I hoped they were wrong, but having now got it, I am finding the same as they describe.</p><p>Ok so here goes let me try and give more info, although please note i am not a number cruncher, and have no evidence on any of this, and may very well be wrong... but this is so you can see what I mean.</p><p>I am a Melee Warden, and have all the combat arts, 75% crit, and the Strength tree atm in KOS. So most normal mobs are cake to a degree, so i rarely use duststorm in these fights, as they dont last very long at all and with all my passive heals, rarely take damage. So really the only times i think to use it is if maybe a fight is gonna be either <b>a)</b> lots of mobs on me or <b>b)</b> one tough mob. Please note all this is for soloing. Now if <b>a)</b> I tend to find that the more mobs beating on me the more my reactive and melee heals seem to go off, so weirdly, the more mobs i get the better i actually do. In this exaple if i activate duststorm, the first thing i notice is i leak power, so more downtime if between fights, and also my heals seem to go off less. I wonder if this is because my defence goes up, I maybe avoid more, and therefore my heals dont proc as much. I know that sounds silly but just seems that way.</p><p>I took on a group of four blue heroic coin guards, won both fights, but i actually had to heal more when duststorm was up, and used obviously more power than without. Also although the knockdown looked cool, it seems to not really stop the ammount of damage I took, as I took more damage in this fight than the one with duststorm not on. When i say that, please note it was not parsed, but just as in the fact i did not need to heal in the other fight, seemed more passive heals triggered. I also realize that to be accurate it would need like about 100 fights, so this more an experience than scientific test. But I have used it in these situations on and off, as I like the idea of the spell, but every time i go back to not using it, as I feel I am slowing down, and not doing as well with it on.</p><p>Now in the case of <b>b)</b> the same appears to be so , although I also notice that alot of harder mobs... say green heroics, dont seem to actually gret knocked down. Again not checkinh logs, just as in the animation. Again if i try a identical mob, twice, the lack of duststorm seems to not make too much difference other than the loss of power.</p><p>I have never tried to use the spell in groups, and maybe that is my mistake? All the info i have given is purely opinion, not proper tests, and I really hope someone can tell me when too use and where I am going wrong. Thankyou also for not flaming me as I hope to be honest that I am being a fool, and i can use my duststorm regularly, as I love knockdowns/stuns in general, and also do not sniff at extra defence.</p><p>Let the advise and teaching begin he he</p><p>Thanks everyone</p><p>Ghostwolf<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>P.s Loving being a melee warden! P.p.s This is all PvE... as I have no PvP experience at all <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[frostbane]

<p>Ok a couple things...</p><p>First the more mobs on you the more often you will proc your passive heals (spores) because more mobs are beating on you.  If it's say 5% proc chance and 1 mob hits you every 2 seconds it won't proc to often...if it's 4 mobs hitting you each every 2 seconds it procs more.  The reason spores procs less when sandstorm is up is because sandstorm increases your avoidance causing you to get hit less, so less times you get hit the less spores procs!</p><p>Second as a melee warden your going to have to realize that at some point mobs are going to hit you too hard for you to be able to keep yourself standing and still deal enough damage to make stuff die.  I liked melee spec but i just didn't find it fit me the best for soloing since i do wear leather armor and don't take beatings to well.</p><p>And sandstorm might seem like a power drain but wait until your in a group and you get an extra set of adds or 2, and it's looking bleak...use sandstorm and you will notice a difference...your tank will avoid more so take less damage as will the rest of the group, and the stun proc also reduces INC damage.  It really does shine in certian situations, in others it's just meh...the trick is finding when it will work.  </p><p>Also if your not sure how well it works find  melee class and challenge them to a duel and don't use sandstorm...then try again with sandstorm....you will notice a HUGE difference and even if they beat you most of the time afterward they are going to be like "man [Removed for Content] was that you did to me that kept stunning me and knocking me back?"</p><p>You said you had read that sandstorm was not useful were mostly in raid scenarios...in raids the avoidance is pitiful since most raid tanks are at max avoidance anyway, the stun doesn't effect epics, and so basically it's a 100% worthless spell for raids.</p>

[Vanilla1]

<cite>frostbane wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok a couple things...</p><p>First the more mobs on you the more often you will proc your passive heals (spores) because more mobs are beating on you.  If it's say 5% proc chance and 1 mob hits you every 2 seconds it won't proc to often...if it's 4 mobs hitting you each every 2 seconds it procs more.  The reason spores procs less when sandstorm is up is because sandstorm increases your avoidance causing you to get hit less, so less times you get hit the less spores procs!</p><p>Second as a melee warden your going to have to realize that at some point mobs are going to hit you too hard for you to be able to keep yourself standing and still deal enough damage to make stuff die.  I liked melee spec but i just didn't find it fit me the best for soloing since i do wear leather armor and don't take beatings to well.</p><p>And sandstorm might seem like a power drain but wait until your in a group and you get an extra set of adds or 2, and it's looking bleak...use sandstorm and you will notice a difference...your tank will avoid more so take less damage as will the rest of the group, and the stun proc also reduces INC damage.  It really does shine in certian situations, in others it's just meh...the trick is finding when it will work.  </p><p>Also if your not sure how well it works find  melee class and challenge them to a duel and don't use sandstorm...then try again with sandstorm....you will notice a HUGE difference and even if they beat you most of the time afterward they are going to be like "man [Removed for Content] was that you did to me that kept stunning me and knocking me back?"</p><p>You said you had read that sandstorm was not useful were mostly in raid scenarios...in raids the avoidance is pitiful since most raid tanks are at max avoidance anyway, the stun doesn't effect epics, and so basically it's a 100% worthless spell for raids.</p></blockquote><p>Hi</p><p>Thanks for your imput. You first paragraph deals with my point scenario a), and I totally agree on this. I tried too explain that in my post, however you did it far better lol. Anyways based on that i think in that situation i prefer to have more heal procs when soloing. In relation to the Melee Warden I am having a blast, and not worried about any lack of power. I was not suggesting it be altered due to lack of power generally, just trying to figure out a use for this particular spell.</p><p>In relation to your group scenario, I will indeed try that. As I mentioned I have not tried it in a group yet, so nice to know it may well be handy. Moving on to the Duel advice, I am sure it works very well against other players, but I never duel or PvP so really only worried about PvE useage. Finally I do not raid, so again no real knowledge of it in that situation.</p><p>So it really seems to be a situation spell in a group setting, and a good PvP spell. If that is the case cool. I do not want to upset people by suggesting it be changed. If it has its uses I am glad. Will certainly play around with it. However atm in a solo situation I will probably not use it too much, mainly cause I am really pleased how I do so far without it. I am sure one day when I fight a mob that gives me trouble... I will give it a go and maybe will be surprised how it could make a difference perhaps in a tough situation. Although recently I was fighting the level 50^^^ Giants in Sinking sands at lvl 55 and I must say again, I found i tended to kill them more efficently without Duststorm, but not tried any Blue^^^ mobs yet as I tend not to fight Heroics unless in a group.</p><p>Thanks again for your input, and not wishing to whine, just did not want to find out I was missing something...</p><p>Ghostwolf P</p>

[MullenSkywatcher]

<cite>Vanilla1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Thanks again for your input, and not wishing to whine, just did not want to find out I was missing something...<p>Ghostwolf P</p></blockquote>Whining won't get you in trouble, I do it all the time and Arielle hasn't kicked me out yet!

[Falcon_426]

<p>     I agree with the other posters that have said this spell is situational. I group and solo quite a bit with my warden, and have yet to really use this spell while soloing. Even in groups, for the most part, I do not use this spell much. However, the tank that I usually group with seems to enjoy pulling a whole room at a time every once in awhile<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"> This spell shines when he does because it increases his defense quite a bit and makes it easier for me to keep him alive. </p><p>     Also, I agree with you 100% Arielle that it is a pain that you can get knocked across the map with this spell active. I have lost track of how many times I had to cancel it and drop my groups defence in a tough fight just so I could run back into healing range.</p>

[Volkov]

<p>/looks around </p><p>What kind of crazy zerker would enjoy pulling entire rooms?  /grin  I just want to make sure you are awake.</p><p> I also have an up and coming warden (59 atm), and I duo with a monk quite a bit, and I get in groups with a bruiser tanking fairly often.  Sandstorm seams to really help out a lot in those situaitons.  I definatly notice a decrease in the amount of damage they take.</p>

[branvil]

<p>I agree with the OP, I would love to see this spell looked at from a PvE perspective.   I find it useless in the end game and even when leveling up I found no use for it.   It serves zero purpose raiding and I can live with that but it would have been nice to have while leveling up for those "Poop hits the fan" situations. </p><p> Just my two coppers )</p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<cite>Volkov wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>/looks around </p><p>What kind of crazy zerker would enjoy pulling entire rooms?  /grin  I just want to make sure you are awake.</p><p> I also have an up and coming warden (59 atm), and I duo with a monk quite a bit, and I get in groups with a bruiser tanking fairly often.  Sandstorm seams to really help out a lot in those situaitons.  I definatly notice a decrease in the amount of damage they take.</p></blockquote><p>I know one..for sure.  Berserkers, are, by nature...well..Berserk, right?</p><p>To the OP.  I'm reading your posts fast cause I'm in a hurry....am I getting this right that you are relying totally on your passive heals to proc in order to kill the mob?  And if so, why?  Why not toss on a few direct heal/regen stacks  in between meleeing and planting your tree as long as the fight takes?  As far as power use of Sandstorm is concerned...I DEMAND that you go back and get your manastone, get some power potions and start working on the Vessel Of Fyr'Un!!</p><p>I think if you had some extra power regen items, you'd be back in love with Sandstorm.  </p><p>P.S  I don't agree with Branvil, either - Sandstorm is awesome if you are the Warden in a scout group in a raid, or even in the caster group.  It's good in the MT group as well, but I don't want to use it on a long fight where power is dicey - ie, will we have enough to finish the fight..?   </p><p>It's awesome in a group with an avoidance tank, as well...as the previous poster said ...with a monk or bruiser tank - they will hardly take any damage.  </p>

[Vanilla1]

<cite>Arielle Nightshade wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Volkov wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>/looks around </p><p>What kind of crazy zerker would enjoy pulling entire rooms?  /grin  I just want to make sure you are awake.</p><p> I also have an up and coming warden (59 atm), and I duo with a monk quite a bit, and I get in groups with a bruiser tanking fairly often.  Sandstorm seams to really help out a lot in those situaitons.  I definatly notice a decrease in the amount of damage they take.</p></blockquote><p>I know one..for sure.  Berserkers, are, by nature...well..Berserk, right?</p><p>To the OP.  I'm reading your posts fast cause I'm in a hurry....am I getting this right that you are relying totally on your passive heals to proc in order to kill the mob?  And if so, why?  Why not toss on a few direct heal/regen stacks  in between meleeing and planting your tree as long as the fight takes?  As far as power use of Sandstorm is concerned...I DEMAND that you go back and get your manastone, get some power potions and start working on the Vessel Of Fyr'Un!!</p><p>I think if you had some extra power regen items, you'd be back in love with Sandstorm.  </p><p>P.S  I don't agree with Branvil, either - Sandstorm is awesome if you are the Warden in a scout group in a raid, or even in the caster group.  It's good in the MT group as well, but I don't want to use it on a long fight where power is dicey - ie, will we have enough to finish the fight..?   </p><p>It's awesome in a group with an avoidance tank, as well...as the previous poster said ...with a monk or bruiser tank - they will hardly take any damage.  </p></blockquote><p>Hi again,</p><p>I only rely on my passive heals if all is going well... If i need a heal, then i do cast my hots etc, but was really saying that my passive heals are so <b>good</b> that I rarely need to use my cast heals. Just seems no point in casting them if i am at full health for most of the fight<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Not complaining .. he he just saying that as I finish on full health and nearly full mana, that really duststorm seems almost un needed, as I still finish on full health but a little less mana if i use it. </p><p>Really cant stress enough I am totally happy with my Warden... no complaints at all, just a little disapointed that I dont see a real use for the spell in most fights. It seems, that as you said, it is situational, which is cool...  </p><p>I have started using it again , but I just seem to do as well with or without it but i am not a person that tends to fight Heroics, I am happy killing solo mobs when I am soloing, so maybe if the mobs I fought were harder, the use spell would be more helpful.</p><p>As for the Mana stone... I am very lazy<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Having a ball... just hoped duststorm was gonna be a class defining spell like for example ring of fire is for furies... i do realize that that spell is an Ancient spell tho so maybe expect too much lol</p><p>Ghostwolf P</p>

[Somniloquy]

I use Sandstorm a fair bit after forcing myself to look for places to use it.  It helps soloing and groups whenever you are pulling groupsof mobs and dealing with adds.  For soloing it's great because it takes me out of the usual cycle of spells I cast routinely till the mobseventually fall over and die.  Essentially it adds to my survivability a bit, and that gives me less downtime and makes soloing more efficient.The fact it has no effects at all on Epic mobs is more of an issue I would guess.  Apart from our DoT we cannot debuff an Epic in any way whatsoever.  Some will say that Warden is not really a CC type class anyways and I would probably agree.  I am more concerned withour buffing utility than anything else at this point, it is the one area that is really weak right now.

[branvil]

<p>I'm curious Arielle, what you find useful about SS in a raid?  A mage group should be nowhere near the mob to start with and the defensive bonus the spell posseses is not going to make much of a difference as an epic mob is not likely to miss a mage if he/she is in range.   </p><p>I'm in the MT group for all our raids and have popped it a few times when the going is slow but honestly I don't see how the def bonus is going to make much of a difference with a raid geared tank as far as power loss to benefit gained.   Perhaps i've overlooked something and if so I would be interested hearing it, i'm always looking to increase what little we have to offer in the overall scheme of raiding.</p><p>thanks in advance for any imput</p>

[Arteen]

I've thought this spell needed to be looked at for a long time.  It can be useful in group situations.  It has been especially useful in Castle Mistmoore on occasion.  My problem with this spell is the comparison of it vs other spells priests got at the same level.  I don't have a list, but I know we've talked about it in guild chat and on our forums before that the Sandstorm spell just doesn't compare to other priest "special" abilities.  Maybe someone else has the list of the unique spells each priest got?  If we want it changed, we need a viable reason and the best reason I can think of to change it would be balance.

[Prrasha]

For the people who claim it's not useful for soloing, I've found one good use for it... Fighting other healers.  ^^^s especially... even grey ^^^s can heal right through your DPS.  Mob AI is mob AI though, so they'll autoattack constantly... heal, autoattack fires when heal completes, stun goes off, they can't cast another heal for a short while.  Makes it much easier to burn them down.

[Kithen]

<p>IMO Sandstorm/Duststorm is a great skill... i sugest getting it Adept III or better if u can... I came back to eq2 from a 8 month break... and back before i left i knew i had recieved that spell... but i never used it thought it was useless and pointless.... then i was on a raid with my old raid force and one of their members asked me if i had it and i said yea i had it ad3 but never really tryed using it... he said to use it preety much any time its up on encounters on and out of raid... so i started... diddn't see much benefit on raids but i still throw it just in case in situations where i know i don't need to fix my location if the mob has knock back.... but mostly i've found a major use for it whyal duoing or in groups with others... I have a old SK friend i group alot and we've gotten in the habbit of him pulling entire rooms in SoS and PoA and instances and me putting Sandstom up and my tree and going to town sure by the end of the fight i'm down to like 35% power and he's OOP but its alot of fun and if your dragging peeps under lvl70 around its quick exp and you get weird comments from other groups commenting on how nuts you and your group is and how amazed you survived the entire room ect.... </p><p>hope that gives you a situation where you can have some fun with it and not feel like its useless...</p><p>also i agree with those who say PVPing with melee and other healer classes its almost a must to win me and a lvl70 inquisiter friend went at it for over an hour only reasion i surrvived was becasue of it imo....</p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<cite>branvil wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm curious Arielle, what you find useful about SS in a raid?  <b>A mage group should be nowhere near the mob</b> to start with and the defensive bonus the spell posseses is not going to make much of a difference as an epic mob is not likely to miss a mage if he/she is in range.   </p><p>thanks in advance for any imput</p></blockquote><p>"..should be..." is the operative term here.  Unless your usual raiding force comprises of only extremely well outfitted mages with excellent resists who would never DREAM of trying to overnuke in order to top the parse and thereby getting aggro.....this spell is useful.  Agreed, if a mage gets direct aggro from an epic mob, there's no saving them - but this spell is helpful (IMO) in pretty much any other fight.</p><p>I find on a scout or mage group, healing is so much more easy when this spell is active than not.  It could be coincidence, but I find damage taken is less.  The only caveat would be if it is a long fight when I need to conserve power.   </p><p>True, a well geared MT team doesn't need Sandstorm all the time, but we have a ton of spells a well-geared MT team doesn't need all the time, as well...and we pull them out whenever they are useful.</p><p>That said, I'm not sure why people insist this is our Class Defining spell.  I disagree thoroughly with that.  It's a useful utility, but nowhere near the thing that makes or breaks us as a class.  </p>

[Vanilla1]

<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote>For the people who claim it's not useful for soloing, I've found one good use for it...Fighting other healers.  ^^^s especially... even grey ^^^s can heal right through your DPS.  Mob AI is mob AI though, so they'll autoattack constantly... heal, autoattack fires when heal completes, stun goes off, they can't cast another heal for a short while.  Makes it much easier to burn them down.</blockquote><p>Ummm thanks for that. I do find healers are a pain, and I miss my SK's kick and shield bash, so this would seem a great time to use this spell. That is a great help, thanks again.</p><p>Ghostwolf</p>

[Formangenavn]

<p>As for the knock down. A long time ago SS had 4 sec knock down. It was changed to 2.5 sec to make illu/coercer more viable or something. Next time you parse, see how fast mob hits. The once I tested had a delay of like 2.35. this means next hit will be delayed for 0.15 sec, which is more or less nothing, and compared to 1.65 sec it used to be delayed. </p><p>If you have crappy gear the mitt increase might be noticable on incomming damage. As far as the stunn part, I have seen no effect on incoming damage. This is on pve server. If you are fighting on pvp server (I dont) I imagine you fight people with very low dely, like 1.3 sec. Then the knockdown will have an effect.</p><p>Although my tests where done a long time ago, I dont think anything has been changed.</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=181456" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=181456</a></p>