Bruisers are ruining the balance of the game

[Siclone]

<p >Our Bruiser with the latest change is parse 2k to 2.5 k on raids.<span>  </span>Are you guys kidding me? <span> </span>Do you guys at SOE think that’s balance?<span>  </span>That’s tier 1 DPS</p> <p > He is also the off tank!<span>  </span>I mean pretty crappy that as nothing but a DPS assassin, I have to work my butt off to see myself tied with the Bruiser, or a little higher or a little lower.<span>  </span></p> <p > He was 3^rd in MMIS ZW.<span>  </span>AND HE IS A TANK</p> <p > You guys at SOE need to seriously take a look at class balance and stop catering to those that don’t want to take the time and effort to max their toons and learn how to play it.</p> <p > I been playing a year and a half, and right now,,,is the least class balance I have seen.<span>  </span>Its really bad.<span>  </span></p>

[Timaarit]

If a bruiser did 2,5k, then a rogue should have done 3,5k. Did any or were they just slacking?Also, a rogue can tank anything a bruiser can. But for some reason that is not ruining the game for you. Class envy?BTW, our assasins are doing around 3k DPS currently. And they can also offtank.

[Junaru]

Is this a joke? Maybe a EoF geared Bruiser could out DPS a KoS gears Assassin but even then I doubt it. And I DOUBT highly a DPS build Bruiser off tanked in MMIS. He would have to give up all his tanking AA's for DPS and thus making him a paper doll.Sorry but I gotta call BS on this.

[firza]

If your bruiser does 2 K I hope your bards do 2.2 K....otherwise this game is totally unbalanced!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jal]

No the bruisers dps is from trapping/blowing up the poor bard doing the wall detection in FTH *grumbles*

[Couching]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>Our Bruiser with the latest change is parse 2k to 2.5 k on raids.<span>  </span>Are you guys kidding me? <span> </span>Do you guys at SOE think that’s balance?<span>  </span>That’s tier 1 DPS</p> </blockquote>Guardian, zerker or pal all did ZW 2k+ while tanking in high end guilds. What's wrong for bruiser who did ZW 2k+ while tanking? If you can't deal  2.5k-3k+ dps as a rogue, it's your dull skill, not class.Edit: NM, you are assassin, you should did 3k+ rather than 2.5k. Before pointing your finger, you should improve your skill first.

[MaCloud1032]

Iam a SK MT and parse 1800 should i be nerfed as well?  I would expect some one in a DPS roll to do that.

[tt66]

Siclone, what is your problem with Bruisers? Everywhere I look, I see you complaining.I wouldn't even mind if your posts had actual content, but they're just mindless trolling.This is your bruiser "friend" who tops the parse and says that bruisers are overpowered, right? And that those of us complaining were idiots?How can I put this delicately.. I have a suspicion that his existence is questionable.EDIT : Seriously, <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/search/search.m?clean=1&forum=748&query=siclone" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">half the time you post in the feedback threads</a>, it's about brawlers! Why the hate?

[Asif]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Our Bruiser with the latest change is parse 2k to 2.5 k on raids.<span>  </span>Are you guys kidding me? <span> </span>Do you guys at SOE think that’s balance?<span>  </span>That’s tier 1 DPS</p><p>He is also the off tank!<span>  </span>I mean pretty crappy that as nothing but a DPS assassin, I have to work my butt off to see myself tied with the Bruiser, or a little higher or a little lower.<span>  </span></p><p>He was 3^rd in MMIS ZW.<span>  </span>AND HE IS A TANK</p><p>You guys at SOE need to seriously take a look at class balance and stop catering to those that don’t want to take the time and effort to max their toons and learn how to play it.</p><p>I been playing a year and a half, and right now,,,is the least class balance I have seen.<span>  </span>Its really bad.<span>  </span></p></blockquote><p>Why is this bad did he take you off the top dps chart or someting?</p><p>My wife finally got hers out of the closet to play this weekend as we did not need her Gaurdian and she had a blast which is good, as a class they were hurting</p>

[quasigenx]

Can we get this merged with the thread "<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=381853" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> Complete waste of time being a Bruiser now. </a>"? Thanks! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[EQ2Luv]

With the latest update raid assassins are doing 3.5k, so I don't see the issue.  Also, he must certainly have a lot of nice buffs on him to pull 2-2.5.  I'm sure if those buffs went to a scout the scout would take the #3 position.  It's not the class, it's the player and the buffs.  Ask your friend for some tips on how to dps because there is literally nothing in the mechanics that would make a bruiser out dps an assassin.  Swash, assassin, and ranger have more self dps/haste buffs, better weapon selections, and they have higher damage combat arts.  Oh and they have poisons.

[Terrius]

omg nerf the bruisers! and while you're at it, nerf this one monk i know who almost always parses 2k! and nerf Guardians cause they cheat, and Zerkers and sks!..... /sarcasm off what's wrong with a bruiser actually knowing how to play his/her class and parsing properly instead of saying "It's a complete waste of time being a bruiser i'm gonna re roll!"? Now if it were a Paladin that parsed that high, I'd be very much disturbed at your raid force...

[Uumuuanu]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Our Bruiser with the latest change is parse 2k to 2.5 k on raids.<span>  </span>Are you guys kidding me? <span> </span>Do you guys at SOE think that’s balance?<span>  </span>That’s tier 1 DPS</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">That is NOT tier 1 DPS.  Tier2 maybe.  Tier 1 is POST 3k zone wide.  Also it is NOT unusually to see tanks doing 2K or more, we have a paladin that parses 2700 on some fights.  Of course the warlock in that same fight parses in excess of 3k zone wide and as high as 5k on some fights.  And we are NOT an uber raiding guild with EoF fabled all around.</span></p><p>He is also the off tank!<span>  </span>I mean pretty crappy that as nothing but a DPS assassin, I have to work my butt off to see myself tied with the Bruiser, or a little higher or a little lower.<span>  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Off tank my BUTT.   How many times is he oneshotted because epics ignore his avoidance and he has no mitigation.  How many times has your MT went down and that same OT took over and finished the encounter.  Don't feed me this nonsense.  There are HUNDREDS of posts on this forum and every other forum clearly stating that bruisers and monks are VERY frustrated that they are not easily able to tank like the other tanks.  </span></p><p>He was 3^rd in MMIS ZW.<span>  </span>AND HE IS A TANK</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Again, don't believe the tank part and I would like to see your parse.  Unless you are post 30k on the parse he is just doing what he should be able to do, the rest of you are slacking. </span></p><p>You guys at SOE need to seriously take a look at class balance and stop catering to those that don’t want to take the time and effort to max their toons and learn how to play it.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Maybe you need to learn to play your toon.  If you are an assassin you should NEVER be complaining about any one elses DPS.   We consistently have problems with the burst damage that assassins and your counterparts rangers can do pulling aggro.  A 15k backstab is NOT obtainable by a bruiser (especially since our devastation fist is bugged and wont land on half the things they just said it would).   Our assassins regularly top the parse and I have seen them beat out warlocks on group mobs.  Take your lack of DPS complaint somewhere else.  Maybe to the assassin forums where they make fun of you.</span></p><p>I been playing a year and a half, and right now,,,is the least class balance I have seen.<span>  </span>Its really bad.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I'm sorry but a year and a half, you don't have all the info to be able to talk about balance.  You didnt experience the MASSIVE changes and imbalance before LU13.  You never saw the monks and bruisers be pushed out by guardian (like me) from tanking anything.  You haven't read the hundreds of posts saying maybe they should be made into a DPS class. You obviously havent read the THOUSANDS of posts by brawlers asking to be fixed so they can tank.  I even started one so I could find out what they go through.  Sure I can do burst dps on a bruiser.  But they have some of the longest on average recast timers of any class I have played, (and thats 5 toons to level 70 and a dozen to at least 40).   They also have huge issues with tanking anything epic, even blue and green epics oneshotting them.  Obviously not playing on you havent experienced the recent nonsense of being told that you can use an abiltiy on all mobs only to have the game telling you it cant be used on targets that it SAYS it can.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><b>I'm sorry to tell you, but take this whine thread and stick it in the backside of the next mob you attack, maybe it will do more damage.</b></span></p></blockquote><p>The more I thought about this the more I got annoyed.   </p><p>You want to go with balanced?  Fine nerf the bruisers DPS, but I dont EVER want to see another scout tanking an epic mob.   I want tacticians armor to slap that scout like a red headed stepchild.  I mean VAPORIZE them in one hit.  The fact that the rogue classes can AND DO tank epics means your entire line of thinking is NONSENSE.   If that were the case then no healer should be able to EVER tank, a mob hits them they are oneshotted.  Sorry bots your tank is gone now.   Oh and while you are at it,  I want all mages to have ZERO mitigation because they wear cloth, one shot them too.  Oh and take away their avoidance, after all they are nelly little casters right?  Oneshotted.  Give me a break.  Honestly.</p><p>To hear someone say non-sense like this is EXACTLY what has been wrong with EQ2 and EQ1 for EIGHT YEARS.   People crying that their toon can't do what someone else can.  Sony will NEVER be able to balance out different playstyles and play abilities.   Don't tell them to BREAK another class because you are jealous and can't play yours.</p><p>/RANTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT</p>

[Cocytus]

<p>/laugh</p><p>2-2.5k is NOT tier 1. That's high tier 2.</p>

[Sapphirius]

<cite>quasigenx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can we get this merged with the thread "<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=381853" target="_blank"> Complete waste of time being a Bruiser now. </a>"? Thanks! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>[Removed for Content]! Thanks, hun. I so seriously needed that laugh.

[Novusod]

The only thing over powered about bruisers is their solo'ing.

[liveja]

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry but I gotta call BS on this.</blockquote>Ditto.

[PaganSaint]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>Our Bruiser with the latest change is parse 2k to 2.5 k on raids.<span>  </span>Are you guys kidding me? <span> </span>Do you guys at SOE think that’s balance?<span>  </span>That’s tier 1 DPS</p> </blockquote>Guardian, zerker or pal all did ZW 2k+ while tanking in high end guilds. What's wrong for bruiser who did ZW 2k+ while tanking? If you can't deal  2.5k-3k+ dps as a rogue, it's your dull skill, not class.Edit: NM, you are assassin, you should did 3k+ rather than 2.5k. Before pointing your finger, you should improve your skill first.</blockquote>QFEEveryone calling BS needs to re-evaluate their own play. 2.4k ZW is not a stretch anymore for a Bruiser. Its low tier two DPS. But it is more along the lines of what one would expect out of the class all along.

[tt66]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>QFEEveryone calling BS needs to re-evaluate their own play. 2.4k ZW is not a stretch anymore for a Bruiser. Its low tier two DPS. But it is more along the lines of what one would expect out of the class all along.</blockquote>Not calling BS on his "Bruiser Friend that may or may not exist"'s parse.Calling BS on the fact that the Bruiser parsed 3rd ZW in MMIS, doing the same DPS as an assassin.

[Timaarit]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>QFEEveryone calling BS needs to re-evaluate their own play. 2.4k ZW is not a stretch anymore for a Bruiser. Its low tier two DPS. But it is more along the lines of what one would expect out of the class all along.</blockquote>Not calling BS on his "Bruiser Friend that may or may not exist"'s parse.Calling BS on the fact that the Bruiser parsed 3rd ZW in MMIS, doing the same DPS as an assassin.</blockquote>I wouldn't call it BS. A good bruiser can really even outparse a crappy assasin. But it is not about class in this case, it is all about player skill.

[Meatmonster]

 Someone is probabaly naming their pet the same name as the Bruiser, which is parsing under the players name rather than the pets summoner. A bruiser I was guilded with one time had someone do this, confused the hell out of us.

[Vulkan_NTooki]

<cite>Terrius wrote:</cite><blockquote>omg nerf the bruisers! and while you're at it, nerf this one monk i know who almost always parses 2k! and nerf Guardians cause they cheat, and Zerkers and sks!...../sarcasm offwhat's wrong with a bruiser actually knowing how to play his/her class and parsing properly instead of saying "It's a complete waste of time being a bruiser i'm gonna re roll!"?Now if it were a Paladin that parsed that high, I'd be very much disturbed at your raid force...</blockquote>Umm.. many paladins can parse that high.. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> They still only top 5 in dps parse tho.. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Junaru]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>Our Bruiser with the latest change is parse 2k to 2.5 k on raids.<span>  </span>Are you guys kidding me? <span> </span>Do you guys at SOE think that’s balance?<span>  </span>That’s tier 1 DPS</p> </blockquote>Guardian, zerker or pal all did ZW 2k+ while tanking in high end guilds. What's wrong for bruiser who did ZW 2k+ while tanking? If you can't deal  2.5k-3k+ dps as a rogue, it's your dull skill, not class.Edit: NM, you are assassin, you should did 3k+ rather than 2.5k. Before pointing your finger, you should improve your skill first.</blockquote>QFEEveryone calling BS needs to re-evaluate their own play. 2.4k ZW is not a stretch anymore for a Bruiser. Its low tier two DPS. But it is more along the lines of what one would expect out of the class all along.</blockquote>No one is saying a Bruiser can't parse 2k to 2.5k ZW. But we are calling BS that a Bruiser out parsed an Assassin ZW. The only reasons for that happening is a crappy geared Assassin or a crappy played Assassin. In the end the Bruiser did well. The high end of what they can parse, it's just the rest of the raid that seems to be slacking.I am in fact calling COMPLETE BS on a DPS setup Bruiser off tanking in MMIS.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>No one is saying a Bruiser can't parse 2k to 2.5k ZW. But we are calling BS that a Bruiser out parsed an Assassin ZW. The only reasons for that happening is a crappy geared Assassin or a crappy played Assassin. In the end the Bruiser did well. The high end of what they can parse, it's just the rest of the raid that seems to be slacking.I am in fact calling COMPLETE BS on a DPS setup Bruiser off tanking in MMIS.</blockquote><nods> The whole post has me going, "Huh?"

[liveja]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>No one is saying a Bruiser can't parse 2k to 2.5k ZW. But we are calling BS that a Bruiser out parsed an Assassin ZW. The only reasons for that happening is a crappy geared Assassin or a crappy played Assassin. In the end the Bruiser did well. The high end of what they can parse, it's just the rest of the raid that seems to be slacking.I am in fact calling COMPLETE BS on a DPS setup Bruiser off tanking in MMIS.</blockquote><nods> The whole post has me going, "Huh?"</blockquote><p>Yea, but it's the sort of content-free whining I've come to expect from the OP.</p>

[Siclone]

it is not BS nor is it complexA good raid Bruiser is on par DPS wide with DPS classes, I could post a parse but I have zero paint skills to cross of names ect,,, but don't take my word for it...talk to bruisers in raid guilds..that know what they are doingthey are on par with all the dps classes,,,,,2 k to 2.5 k per encounter.  THATS TIER ONE DPSas far as assassins should be 3.5 k zw that is BS....you can do that on one encounter here or there but only in the right circumstances.  90 percent of the assassins out there would love 2 to 2.5 k on every fight.it is a joke....class balance is a joke. 

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yea, but it's the sort of content-free whining I've come to expect from the OP.</blockquote>I just find it amusing coming out on the heels of another posting claiming that being a bruiser is a complete waste of time. Kind of like the posts complaining that brawlers aren't wanted on raids, but the RA on my server is <i>still</i> looking for a DPS-specced brawler and has been for some time. I told them they were free to borrow me, but only if it wouldn't lock me out of any scheduled raids.

[Siclone]

<p >Here is the question on the forum and I had no part of this at all…..</p> <p > <b><u>“what do you guys parse on avg? lets assume no dirge. =)”</u><span><u> </u> </span></b></p> <p > </p> <p >1) ‘I had a zonewide of 1675 last night on the 3rd floor of EH. I would have been higher but I had a few deaths <img src="file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/n50727/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif" border="0" alt="" width="16" height="16" />Most fights I was parsing 2200-2500. I had a really good group though, Dirge, Inq, Brig, Troub, Ranger. <img src="file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/n50727/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image002.gif" border="0" alt="" width="16" height="16" />’</p> <p > </p> <p >2)‘omg who raids w/o a dirge? my parses vary... usually with dirge and inquis I hover around 2.5k .... on the rare occassion there is an illy in the group I hit 3.3-3.5k’</p> <p > </p> <p >3)‘in eh tonight i was doing 1700 - 2400 dps with dirge/illusionist, but just with a dirge its still 1700-2200. Thats been my avg the last couple weeks minus fights where theres a fuckton of adds or some thing happens that takes me away from dpsing.’</p> <p > </p> <p >4) Briza is uber, but I doubt he meant zonewide. Probably meant 3.5K on most fights, but not zonewide. I get about 1.8K with just inq and no dirge or Illusionist, gotta try to have dirge ilu and inq... ooh that'd be uber.</p> <p > </p> <p >5) In fights i often do 1.6 - 1,9k with only Inq in group. If blessed with Dirge and Coercer or Illu it can read like 2,5~ (if I remember correctly). I have no EoF weaponry yet, still using FoB and claymore reward.</p> <p > </p> <p >There are 5 different bruisers for ya,,,,,,and the thread can be found here </p> <p > </p> <p ><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/bruisers/10226-raid-dps.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/bruisers/1...6-raid-dps.html</a></p> <p > </p> <p >Stop attacking the messenger! <span> </span>(me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><span style="font-family: Wingdings;"></span>) <span> </span>Stop blaming soe for your failure to learn to play your toon! Its causing class balance issues! </p>

[Couching]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>it is not BS nor is it complexA good raid Bruiser is on par DPS wide with DPS classes, I could post a parse but I have zero paint skills to cross of names ect,,, but don't take my word for it...talk to bruisers in raid guilds..that know what they are doingthey are on par with all the dps classes,,,,,2 k to 2.5 k per encounter.  THATS TIER ONE DPSas far as assassins should be 3.5 k zw that is BS....you can do that on one encounter here or there but only in the right circumstances.  90 percent of the assassins out there would love 2 to 2.5 k on every fight.it is a joke....class balance is a joke.  </blockquote>You didn't answer the questions.Why didn't you whine on guardian, zerker, pal or sk since they did 2k+ ZW while tanking?Why do you keep trolling on bruiser?Moreover, what's your bruiser ZW dps? Don't post something like 2 to 2.5k on every fight to blur the realty. Just post his ZW dps including mayong.Next, tier 1 dps is 2.5k-3k, tier 2 dps is 2k-2.5k. As an assassin, you should hit at least 2.5k since your guild can kill mayong in MMIS. Our guild hit mmis yesterday. Zerker and I as off tanks hit 2k ZW including mayong. Though, we are number 9 and 10 on dps list. The top 5 dpsers hit 2.7k-2.9k+ ZW. Our assassin did almost 2.8k ZW especially mayong is a joust fight. Her dps will break 3k excluding mayong.A tier 1 dpser did 700-900 dps more than fighter is balanced. Seriously, if you use the time whining on board to improve your skill, you will hit 2.5k-3k. as a qualified assassin rather than whiner.

[Timaarit]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>it is not BS nor is it complexA good raid Bruiser is on par DPS wide with DPS classes, I could post a parse but I have zero paint skills to cross of names ect,,, <span style="color: #ffff00;">BS</span>but don't take my word for it...talk to bruisers in raid guilds..that know what they are doing<span style="color: #ffff00;">Well if a bruiser an do the dps of assasins, then the assasins need to learn how to play.</span>they are on par with all the dps classes,,,,,2 k to 2.5 k per encounter.  THATS TIER ONE DPS<span style="color: #ffff00;">BS</span>as far as assassins should be 3.5 k zw that is BS....you can do that on one encounter here or there but only in the right circumstances.  90 percent of the assassins out there would love 2 to 2.5 k on every fight.<span style="color: #ffff00;">And on those cases the bruiser is doing 1,5k to 2k. Like said, if the assasins are doing bruiser DPS, then the assasins dont know their class</span>it is a joke....class balance is a joke.  <span style="color: #ffff00;">True. But not the way you think.</span></blockquote>

[Rast]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yea, but it's the sort of content-free whining I've come to expect from the OP.</blockquote>I just find it amusing coming out on the heels of another posting claiming that being a bruiser is a complete waste of time. Kind of like the posts complaining that brawlers aren't wanted on raids, but the RA on my server is <i>still</i> looking for a DPS-specced brawler and has been for some time. I told them they were free to borrow me, but only if it wouldn't lock me out of any scheduled raids.</blockquote>Yah sapphy, but you have to remember that LDL is dying of no population too <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[runamonk]

The only time I've been able to parse that high is by using my devastation fist. This can only be used once every 3 minutes but I've been able to parse up to 3K, it's a fluke and not consistent.We're hardly overpowered, especially when it comes to raiding. We don't have all that much usefulness.Raid Usefulness:1. Add +Combat Art/Taunt/Detaunt but only if there isn't another bruiser as our buffs will not stack with one another.2. I can drag a mob around, this has come in really handy (pretty [I cannot control my vocabulary] awesome).3. I can intercede dmg, semi helpful but all tanks have this so nothing special here.4. I can fd off and hopefully save the raid some time in getting back up during a wipe situation.5. I do medium dps to high dps in sporatic spurts (burst).6. I can cast shrug off on the main tank and hopefully he will avoid some additional attacks, again only if I'm the only bruiser on the raid.7. I can disband from the raid and run around a find the hidden traps and fd them off. These are the main things I've been able to bring to a raid, I don't play an important enough roll in raiding to really make a difference one way or the other on a raid. It would be preferable to have a high dps character in my place. I get to come along because I have such a winning personality. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />What I would really like to see is bruisers really be able to keep up with raid equipped shadowknights, our shadowknights can really crank out the dps on a consistent basis. I would be quite happy to be able to switch between being dps based or mitigation based (tanking).One other thing:When people start crying like this all they are doing is hurting themselves, because if the devs decide a nerf is in order all you're doing is nerfing your overall dps while raiding. I don't see the point personally.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yea, but it's the sort of content-free whining I've come to expect from the OP.</blockquote>I just find it amusing coming out on the heels of another posting claiming that being a bruiser is a complete waste of time. Kind of like the posts complaining that brawlers aren't wanted on raids, but the RA on my server is <i>still</i> looking for a DPS-specced brawler and has been for some time. I told them they were free to borrow me, but only if it wouldn't lock me out of any scheduled raids.</blockquote>Yah sapphy, but you have to remember that LDL is dying of no population too <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Pffft. Only according to the same 3 pessimistic people who have proven themselves so obnoxious and picky that no one <i>wants</i> to group with them. Not to say LDL population isn't smaller than AB or Nagafen, but we're not dying either.

[Couching]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>Here is the question on the forum and I had no part of this at all…..</p> <p> <b><u>“what do you guys parse on avg? lets assume no dirge. =)”</u><span><u> </u> </span></b></p> <p>1) ‘I had a zonewide of 1675 last night on the 3rd floor of EH. I would have been higher but I had a few deaths <img src="file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/n50727/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif" border="0" alt="" width="16" height="16" />Most fights I was parsing 2200-2500. I had a really good group though, Dirge, Inq, Brig, Troub, Ranger. <img src="file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/n50727/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image002.gif" border="0" alt="" width="16" height="16" />’</p> <p><span style="color: #006699;">If he did 2200-2500 in most fights, his ZW dps won't be 1675. Anyone with a brain can understand it.</span></p>2)‘omg who raids w/o a dirge?<p> my parses vary... usually with dirge and inquis I hover around 2.5k .... on the rare occassion there is an illy in the group I hit 3.3-3.5k’</p> <p><span style="color: #006699;">Again, no ZW dps. Spike dps on few fights is nothing.</span> </p> <p>3)‘in eh tonight i was doing 1700 - 2400 dps with dirge/illusionist, but just with a dirge its still 1700-2200. Thats been my avg the last couple weeks minus fights where theres a [I cannot control my vocabulary] of adds or some thing happens that takes me away from dpsing.’</p> <p><span style="color: #006699;">Again, same deal as number 1. Where is the ZW? </span></p> <p>4) Briza is uber, but I doubt he meant zonewide. Probably meant 3.5K on most fights, but not zonewide. I get about 1.8K with just inq and no dirge or Illusionist, gotta try to have dirge ilu and inq... ooh that'd be uber.</p> <p> <span style="color: #006699;">Again, spike dps on few fights means nothing. Show us his ZW dps.</span></p> <p>5) In fights i often do 1.6 - 1,9k with only Inq in group. If blessed with Dirge and Coercer or Illu it can read like 2,5~ (if I remember correctly). I have no EoF weaponry yet, still using FoB and claymore reward. </p> <p>There are 5 different bruisers for ya,,,,,,and the thread can be found here </p> <p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/bruisers/10226-raid-dps.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/bruisers/1...6-raid-dps.html</a></p> <p><span style="color: #006699;"><i><b>Bruisers in this thread are puffing. Anything about xxx-xxx dps means nothing.</b></i> <i><b>Show us their ZW.</b></i> It's funny. Only few could share their ZW and most bruisers are just puffing as you did. Ha, most fights are 2200-2500 and ZW is only 1675. LOL</span></p><p><span style="color: #006699;"> I will say it again. All QUALIFIED fighters can hit 2k ZW dps with proper buffs/gear. All QUALIFIED T1 dpsers can hit 3k with proper buffs/gear as well. If an assassin with proper buffs as you do in raid and can't break 2.5k, it's your crappy skill problem rather than class.</span></p> <p>Stop attacking the messenger! <span> </span>(me <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /&gt<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <span> </span>Stop blaming soe for your failure to learn to play your toon! Its causing class balance issues!</p><span style="color: #006699;">We didn't attack you. We just tell you what a qualified assassin should be in raid. Please, dont be offended.</span> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>

[Lord Montague]

<p>*looks up at Couching and Siclone's little debacle, then rubs eyes*</p><p>But please, by all means...keep bickering.  It's funny.</p>

[Couching]

<cite>Seirrah@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>*looks up at Couching and Siclone's little debacle, then rubs eyes*</p><p>But please, by all means...keep bickering.  It's funny.</p></blockquote>Well, no body is bickering.I just pointed out how ridiculous his statement is if he made 2200-2500 dps in most fights but with only 1675 ZW dps.It didn't make any sense. Moreover, average dps of an assassin from full master CAs and poison is around 1500 dps. For monk, I have all master CAs and average dps from CAs is around 500-600. For bruiser from full master cas, it's a bit higher and it's around 700-800 in raid.In other word, there is no way for bruiser to out damage an assassin with equal gear with similar buffs in raids. Bruiser is behind assassin about 700-800 dps from less damage CAs and can't use poison. It is game mechanics and can't be changed. It implies, if an assassin did less dps than a bruiser with equal gear/buffs, it's the problem of player rather than class balance.

[Lord Montague]

I dunno...if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck.  *shrugs*  But your perspective though.

[Couching]

It's not my perspective, it's game mechanic.Assassin CA and poison has average 700-800 dps ahead of bruiser CA. It's game mechanic rather than personal perspective.Or are you telling me that assassin has less damage from CAs and poison than bruiser CAs? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Lord Montague]

You missed the point - I wasn't even trying to argue for or against you.  I'm just saying this isn't accomplishing much, and your defensiveness is astounding.  You made your point - isn't that enough?

[Couching]

<cite>Seirrah@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You missed the point - I wasn't even trying to argue for or against you.  I'm just saying this isn't accomplishing much, and your defensiveness is astounding.  You made your point - isn't that enough?</blockquote>No, because it is not my point or perspective or defense. It's game mechanic. End of story.

[Sapphirius]

This went downhill fast.

[Fromingo]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>This went downhill fast.</blockquote>Went downhill?  The OP started his post underground in a latrine with all his BS.  There was no where to go but up!  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Kaleyen]

<cite>Fromingo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>This went downhill fast.</blockquote>Went downhill?  The OP started his post underground in a latrine with all his BS.  There was no where to go but up!  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Well if it helps the thread any I have a 70 Monk and I'm looking for a 70 Bruiser to raid with.Therefore...Paladins are ruining the balance of the game for everyone.

[tt66]

C'mon mods, lock this thread already.There is no way anything constructive can appear in a thread with this title.OP has a history of illogical attacks against bruisers, for some unknown reason.If we ignore him, maybe he'll go away.

[Novusod]

<cite>Kuian@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fromingo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>This went downhill fast.</blockquote>Went downhill?  The OP started his post underground in a latrine with all his BS.  There was no where to go but up!  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Well if it helps the thread any I have a 70 Monk and I'm looking for a 70 Bruiser to raid with.Therefore...Paladins are ruining the balance of the game for everyone.</blockquote>Paladins?? Oh come on it is those uber guardians that can parse 2k and tank the mob at the same time that are ruining the ballance of the game.

[Wy]

I would like to do top end tier 1 dps when I hit 70. Please make this happen devs. Edit: [Removed for Content], I really should stay away from these forums. You guys make me feel like I picked the 'fun to play, but absolutely worthless' class of the game.

[PaganSaint]

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>Our Bruiser with the latest change is parse 2k to 2.5 k on raids.<span>  </span>Are you guys kidding me? <span> </span>Do you guys at SOE think that’s balance?<span>  </span>That’s tier 1 DPS</p> </blockquote>Guardian, zerker or pal all did ZW 2k+ while tanking in high end guilds. What's wrong for bruiser who did ZW 2k+ while tanking? If you can't deal  2.5k-3k+ dps as a rogue, it's your dull skill, not class.Edit: NM, you are assassin, you should did 3k+ rather than 2.5k. Before pointing your finger, you should improve your skill first.</blockquote>QFEEveryone calling BS needs to re-evaluate their own play. 2.4k ZW is not a stretch anymore for a Bruiser. Its low tier two DPS. But it is more along the lines of what one would expect out of the class all along.</blockquote>No one is saying a Bruiser can't parse 2k to 2.5k ZW. But we are calling BS that a Bruiser out parsed an Assassin ZW. The only reasons for that happening is a crappy geared Assassin or a crappy played Assassin. In the end the Bruiser did well. The high end of what they can parse, it's just the rest of the raid that seems to be slacking.I am in fact calling COMPLETE BS on a DPS setup Bruiser off tanking in MMIS.</blockquote>Then you're wrong.Crap Assassin's exist, if the assassin did less than 2.5k ZW and the Bruiser did do that, then the Bruiser out parsed him.Also you need to consider if the assassin was there the whole time.As for OTing as a DPS setup.... You do know that the purely defensive aspects of the brawler tree have very good offensive AAs in the branches of the tree. Not to mention that nothing in MMIS will be hitting an <b>Off Tank</b> very hard at all. Hell casters can off tank and do half the time when they transfer full burns onto adds that spawn without letting the OT grab aggro first.Hell at this point in the expansion couching's DPS teirs he listed are for average guilds, the number 3-5 on the server, the top two on all truly competitive servers will need to add 500-800 DPS to each teir bottom and top end.

[Couching]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Then you're wrong.Crap Assassin's exist, if the assassin did less than 2.5k ZW and the Bruiser did do that, then the Bruiser out parsed him.Also you need to consider if the assassin was there the whole time.As for OTing as a DPS setup.... <i><b>You do know that the purely defensive aspects of the brawler tree have very good offensive AAs in the branches of the tree. </b></i>Not to mention that nothing in MMIS will be hitting an <b>Off Tank</b> very hard at all. Hell casters can off tank and do half the time when they transfer full burns onto adds that spawn without letting the OT grab aggro first.Hell at this point in the expansion couching's DPS teirs he listed are for average guilds, the number 3-5 on the server, the top two on all truly competitive servers will need to add 500-800 DPS to each teir bottom and top end.</blockquote>Are you sure you are not drunken? No double attack for brawler with weapons. No 40% aoe from main hand weapon as warrior and crusader but rather a horrible 16% 250-400 aoe damage.Only 18% critical chance comparing to warrior 22%.Not to say, no aa to boost haste or dps as warrior or crusader.What brawler tree has? 24% single target 120-200 dmg proc. LOL12% reuse reduction on CAs, no thanks for monk.The only thing good is crane flock. Though, any monk will trade it for 40% aoe from main hand.Not to say defensive aa in brawler, 4% hp and contested avoidance. It's a joke comparing to what warrior got in warrior which is uncontested avoidance from buckler line.

[Sapphirius]

<groans> Here we go again.

[PaganSaint]

If you are using strength... you deserve to suck.Wis line has +hp% and 16% AoE proc, Sta has +deflection and 24% DD proc, Int has +parry and +crit.Those are your three line with the strongest applicable defensive options. They also happen to have very strong DPS options.-Or-You can fully DPS spec, no AA +defensive options, and still have 11k+ HP, 60%+ avoidance(which works at near full effect on the vast majority of adds, this is an OT after all) and just under 50% mitigation raid buffed.[I cannot control my vocabulary], that must suck.Either you sacrifice DPS for stronger defense, or you sacrifice stronger defense for DPS. As an OT, going with DPS is the best option in my opinion and observations against every encounter.Side Note: the 40% AE Auto Attack you are so adamant about is <i>not</i> that great of a spec for warriors unless they swapped to DW now and if they did their avoidance is pretty awful, especially compared to a brawler.

[Couching]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you are using strength... you deserve to suck.Wis line has +hp% and 16% AoE proc, Sta has +deflection and 24% DD proc, Int has +parry and +crit.<span style="color: #006699;">Dude, 16% 250-400 damage comparing to 40% from main hand weapon. also, 24% 120-200 damage you said is rock? LOLAverage hit from guild zerker yesterday in mmis is 1.9k from GBH and 40% of his attack is frontal aoe. Any one with a brain can figure it out which one is better. 16% 250-400 damage comparing to 40% 1.9k frontal aoe.</span>Those are your three line with the strongest applicable defensive options. They also happen to have very strong DPS options.<span style="color: #006699;">No, as brawler, no body care contested avoidance. It didn't work well in raid. What we need is uncontested avoidance and mitigation as warrior tree. </span>-Or-You can fully DPS spec, no AA +defensive options, and still have 11k+ HP, 60%+ avoidance(which works at near full effect on the vast majority of adds, this is an OT after all) and just under 50% mitigation raid buffed.<span style="color: #006699;">LOL, who can't? Any plate fighter can hit 11k hp and 60%+ avoidance with 58% mitgiation in <b><i>OFFENSIVE STANCE</i></b>. They must suck,huh? </span>[I cannot control my vocabulary], that must suck.Either you sacrifice DPS for stronger defense, or you sacrifice stronger defense for DPS.Side Note: the 40% AE Auto Attack you are so adamant about is <i>not</i> that great of a spec for warriors unless they swapped to DW now and if they did their avoidance is pretty awful, especially compared to a brawler.<span style="color: #006699;">LOL, you have no clue what you are talking. 40% aoe is from main hand. It's nothing related to offtand. End of story.</span></blockquote>

[PaganSaint]

No. you have to sacrifice taking a better AA line for MH with a buckler equipped. Intelligence line. Maintaining 38% haste 25% recov haste and spell haste constantly is better DPS for a ZW than 40% AE auto attack. By a large margin none the less.Crane Twirl works all of the time, single target(large majority of encounters) and AE. Not to mention it can trigger off of CAs.For AE fights 40% AE Auto Attack is great, much better than Crane Twirl don't get me wrong, while you have 3 or more targets, with 2 or less targets the haste, cast haste, and recovery time is more useful, and that is the majority of what you are going to be fighting. For that majority of the fights, which is better: 16 AAs on an ability that does not help, or 16 AAs on a 16% chance damage proc?My point by stating that about the AA spec's was to illustrate the lack of need to spec defensively against adds. Uncontested avoidance is only a noticeably an issue for the grovebeast as far as adds go.

[Couching]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>No. you have to sacrifice taking a better AA line for MH with a buckler equipped. Intelligence line. Maintaining 38% haste 25% recov haste and spell haste constantly is better DPS for a ZW than 40% AE auto attack. By a large margin none the less.<span style="color: #006699;">No, just as you said, if you want dps, you have to sacrifice defense. Don't complain that you can't get dps and defense aa at the same time.</span>Crane Twirl works all of the time, single target(large majority of encounters) and AE. Not to mention it can trigger off of CAs.<span style="color: #006699;">So what? it's still worse than 40% frontal aoe from main hand weapon since it scales with your weapons.</span>For AE fights 40% AE Auto Attack is great, much better than Crane Twirl don't get me wrong, while you have 3 or more targets, with 2 or less targets the haste, cast haste, and recovery time is more useful, and that is the majority of what you are going to be fighting. For that majority of the fights, which is better: 16 AAs on an ability that does not help, or 16 AAs on a 16% chance damage proc?<span style="color: #006699;">Why doesn't help from 16 aa? Just as you said, you can't get offense aa and defense aa at same. There is nothing wrong. A lot of zerker and guardian have 40% aoe in realty.</span>My point by stating that about the AA spec's was to illustrate the lack of need to spec defensively against adds. Uncontested avoidance is only a noticeably an issue for the grovebeast as far as adds go.<span style="color: #006699;">Still better than contested avoidance we get. </span></blockquote>

[PaganSaint]

It doesn't help to have those 16 AAs spent that way due to nothing for the 40% chance to hit, or hitting slower with less CAs able to be used in a given period of time if two mobs, one targetted. If you aren't able to get a benefit from the spent AAs in one branch for the majority of the time compared to a line that provides any boost to a larger boost in the majority of cases those AAs are wasted in my opinion.The AE Auto Attack is nice for certain encounters, Reinforcement/CoB to get snap aggro on my guardian as an example. But have not had a single ZW in any zone, including LoA that was higher with AE Auto Attack compared to haste/recov/cast haste spec.As for the OP and topic.There are many ways to boost and maintaining the kind of numbers needed to hit that ZW. The increased proc rate doubly from the DW changes, slowing of delays plus longer delay weapons available, hell a dirge alone adds 600 or more to almost every melee/ranger.Tanking is now more about the DPS that can be provided and maintained. The defensive abilities and avoidance ratings available are perfectly fine to OT with and even MT most encounters.

[Couching]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>It doesn't help to have those 16 AAs spent that way due to nothing for the 40% chance to hit, or hitting slower with less CAs able to be used in a given period of time if two mobs, one targetted. If you aren't able to get a benefit from the spent AAs in one branch for the majority of the time compared to a line that provides any boost to a larger boost in the majority of cases those AAs are wasted in my opinion.The AE Auto Attack is nice for certain encounters, Reinforcement/CoB to get snap aggro on my guardian as an example. But have not had a single ZW in any zone, including LoA that was higher with AE Auto Attack compared to haste/recov/cast haste spec.<span style="color: #006699;">You can have your opinion, fine. The realty is most zerkers in game have 40% aoe attack including skel or any famous zerkers in this game. There are also a lot of famous guardians have 40% aoe such as Jaraxx.The realty is 40% aoe from main hand weapon >>> 16% weak souce 250 -400 fix damage proc.</span></blockquote>

[PaganSaint]

No. Skel does not. He is spec'd exactly how I am, str/sta/int. And he knows just a little about maxing DPS potential for the class...Jaraxx isn't full DPS spec'd he is tower spec'd instead.And yes, for large AE fights it is much better, like I said. But for the majority of encounters/add sets, single/double mobs it is not.

[Couching]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>No. Skel does not. He is spec'd exactly how I am, str/sta/int. And he knows just a little about maxing DPS potential for the class...<span style="color: #0066cc;">I remembered he was spec to agi line. It looks like my memory serves me wrong. He is one str/sta/int.</span>Jaraxx isn't full DPS spec'd he is tower spec'd instead.<span style="color: #006699;">He said he was spec to agi in the thread below. Of course, he may change his spec anytime he wants.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=368902" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=368902</a></span>And yes, for large AE fights it is much better, like I said. But for the majority of encounters/add sets, single/double mobs it is not.<span style="color: #006699;">I was comparing aa itself, 40% from main hand weapon to 16% aoe weak sauce 250-400 fix damage proc.You told me that there are more better aa to choose for guardian and zerker. It didn't make any sense for brawler, we can choose other lines as well. I wish brawler tree has better aa more than 40% aoe from main hand weapons.The point is if you want aoe, warrior and crusader have 40% from main hand weapon but ours is 16% 250-400 damage proc.Still, 40% aoe from main hand weapon >>> 16% 250-400 aoe.</span></blockquote>

[PaganSaint]

Yeah Jaraxx is full Agi Line spec'd for the Dragoon's Reflexes at the moment, no stamina line.Personally I like Agi/Sta/Int for brawlers right now, Baton Flurry and Ambidextrous(or whatever) fit my play style and my timing better. Especially as a bruiser and tanking. Re-use decrease from AA, RotFW, and AA taunt recast reduction is very nice. Not to mention KO Combo more often.

[Zeuhl]

<cite>Disgustipate wrote:</cite><blockquote> Someone is probabaly naming their pet the same name as the Bruiser, which is parsing under the players name rather than the pets summoner. A bruiser I was guilded with one time had someone do this, confused the hell out of us. </blockquote>Well, this is the only good thing that came from this thread. I laughed my [Removed for Content] off at this.

[Amalthea]

...And that's a wrap.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Not only is this thread apparently off-topic for this forum (which is for discussion of issues on the Test server; the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/forums/show.m?forum_id=44" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Bruiser</a> forum seems a more likely place), but it's disintegrated into a gelatinous mass.  Ew!