never knew how other class reliant we are..

[miliskel]

after raiding with troub in my group dirge and coercer and swash/asassin in tank group i found out when we had no troub or dirge how clas dependant we are, yet the conji and necro dont require them at all to survive at all..anyone else notice it?

[Agaxiq]

Summoner - hate divided between caster and pet.  DoTs = hate over time.  They don't even have any de-agros in their main spell lines.  Only time Necro typically gets hate is when lifeburning, yet they can top the parse without difficulty. Warlocks are more dependant on hate control than any other class in the game.agressiv

[Hellswrath]

And necros get a FD as well for those rare times when they <i>do </i>pull aggro.The thing that really makes you wonder is that we are better off now with our aggro situation as a class than we ever have been since GU 13.  But the scout/coercer hate transfer nerfs hurt us a lot in raiding.  I can only hope the devs do something for us in T8.  However, they will probably just say "you can take the int AA line".  In order to have decent deaggro abilities, we have to give up one of the AA lines that keeps us in T1 dps.  Doesn't seem fair, does it.  Ah, /rant off.Anyway, yes, we have serious dependence on other classes while raiding.  Or even grouping.

[ChopStix]

try a trouby and illusionist in group with you.. and fury is nice mixed in there too :]

[miliskel]

<cite>ChopStix wrote:</cite><blockquote>try a trouby and illusionist in group with you.. and fury is nice mixed in there too :]</blockquote>thats my normal setup,m but in this lyc raid we had no troub or dirge and a twoboxed coercer in mt group, i died 18 times in there and also, needing aa lines to make us t1 dps when summoners with only 50 aas do the same dps? i no longer asy warlocks are t1 dps anymore..

[Supp]

<p>With the +DMG changes, I am starting to pull aggro in raid on my necro, most notably if my pet dies. It used to be that even if my pet died, I would not take hate. I dont have LB, but I used to. It's very hard to top the parse without it. It was somewhat difficult to top it with LB, but I saw my name up there enough times to know what a difference LB+AttentiveHealer can be. </p><p>Lord willing, I'll have LB back if and when they implement that house orb. </p>

[Supernova17]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. We don't divide our hate. We have our own hate list separate from our pets. We don't have any form of hate decrease if we pull aggro except a 5 minute recast stonekskin ability for -900'ish hate.Lyceum with no Troub/Dirge? Where does the Dirge fit in to all of this, they do nothing for your hate decrease unless you're talking no Hyran's on the MT? Any class can peel AOE aggro left and right if they're good in that kind of situation.

[Foosa]

<cite>Supernova17 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've said it before, I'll say it again. We don't divide our hate. We have our own hate list separate from our pets. We don't have any form of hate decrease if we pull aggro except a 5 minute recast stonekskin ability for -900'ish hate.Lyceum with no Troub/Dirge? Where does the Dirge fit in to all of this, they do nothing for your hate decrease unless you're talking no Hyran's on the MT? Any class can peel AOE aggro left and right if they're good in that kind of situation. </blockquote><p> hows this then, on the parcer my guess is all conj/necro's pets are named the same as you yes?. and your pet accounts for how much of your total dps?. so in all actuality due to your words later on. your hate IS divided between  pet and yourself on DIFFERENT hate lists but still counting on the parcers as 1 person</p>

[Supernova17]

<cite>Tawls@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p> hows this then, on the parcer my guess is all conj/necro's pets are named the same as you yes?</p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Yes, duh! It is a failure of EQ2's log file system to credit our pet's damage to our own (It used to, but SOE broke it long ago) like it does with swarm pets, the only workaround is to rename the primary pet.</span></p><p>. and your pet accounts for how much of your total dps?. </p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">My personal DPS? It doesn't account for any of it. If you're talking about combined damage, my pet does roughly 35% of our combined damage.</span></p><p>so in all actuality due to your words later on. your hate IS divided between  pet and yourself on DIFFERENT hate lists <span style="color: #ffff00;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">No no no, NOT DIVIDED. SEPERATE. If it were divided then how would a tank pet tank? How would a dps pet pull aggro one fight and then the owner the next? Rhetorical questions, because the fact of the matter is separate hate lists.</span></p><p>but still counting on the parcers as 1 person</p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Pets are an extension of their owners, we create them, buff them, AA's to enhance them, position them, protect them and order them to attack. It would be of utmost stupidity not to count them together as a team effort. </span></p></blockquote>/yawn

[BetaMaster]

<p>Warlock is a very skilled class... which is why there aren't that many around... most people that play the class try to dps high and flat out fail because they try to burst extremely high, take aggro and die instantly or they hold back so much that they hardly dps because they don't understand the full potential of the class.</p><p>How you play your toon should all matter on group setup and type of mob.  No one strategy will work for all situations.  </p><p>Some mobs strip buffs and therefore will gank your deaggro buff from troub and the hate buffs on MT... this requires you to hold back a little bit in order to not take aggro.</p><p>Some mobs will chain stun the tank causing your tank to not be able to build much aggro at all.  If the offtanks in your raid are competent in these situations then you shouldn't have to hold back at all (as long as it is a single target mob).</p><p>For the summoner classes they have a number of different pets which allows them to split their aggro...</p><p>Summoner - This hate goes 100% to the summoner because it is their own damage outputUntil Canceled Primary Pet - Damage done by the primary pet is considered hate for that pet and it can (and often does) get aggro because both classes have temporary buffs that cause the pet to proc a bunch in a row and conj even have plane shift which can often make their pet gain aggro... any hate that the pet generates will transfer to the summoner when it dies... so if their pets take aggro and die while they were on the edge of aggro themselves... they got nearly twice the hate of the tank... good luck taking that mob back w/o reinforcement/rescue/FD.Tripple Swarm Pets - Temp pets, do dmg, generate hate, duration runs out... hate generated transfers to summonerSingle Swarm Pet - Same as tripple swarmsUndead Tide (necro only) - Same as swarms</p><p> So yea their hate is divided... that allows them to spike higher (combined) without taking aggro.</p><p>Warlocks can do this too... just not as high.  We have Netherlord and Dark Infestations.  BOTH! should be used on ANY! long fight (which will not ae them dead).</p><p>In terms of Warlock dps... if you have decent gear, not hard to get stuff and the right aa setup you should be doing 1200-1800dps single target in a bad group or 1800-2400 in a good group... 2200-3200 if your buffs are stacked... YES...SINGLE TARGET</p>

[Supernova17]

<cite>BetaMaster wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>most people that play the class try to dps high and flat out fail because they try to burst extremely high, take aggro and die instantly or they hold back so much that they hardly dps because they don't understand the full potential of the class.</p><span style="color: #ffff00;">This is the single biggest problem with the majority of Sorcerers, the hate list and things that affect it are very complex. I've seen Sorc's pull great numbers, but they're few and far between. And yes, I've played both classes.</span><p> So yea their hate is divided... that allows them to spike higher (combined) without taking aggro.</p><span style="color: #ffff00;">I prefer the term "separate", because people get this idea when we use "divided" that our pets are aggro sinks for us or something.</span></blockquote>

[Deathspell]

<cite>BetaMaster wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>...and the right aa setup ....</p></blockquote>See, this gives people the idea there's only one true AA setup to go by for warlocks, other AA setups can be "right" as well, it all depends on your playstyle.

[miliskel]

i cant beleive a conj came into our forum simply to disturb it..but anyways , i wasnt talking bout the multimob the few single target i peeled too and the dirge fits in the mt group for us, and increases the tanks hate and  when u pull aggro from a multimob encounter with first aoe spell half way thru the fight u pull aggro is not a good sign, yet only the wizards and me actually pulled aggro. conjurer and necros have fd/ stoneskin and have low risk vs high reward compared to extremely high risk and low reward (both when without the hate buffers)i really cant see any fairness in conj necro vs sorc aggro:dps ratios and im sure no conj or necro has spent 1p total on 1 raid from deaths..( rep kit x2 + mender bot + repair cost)

[Supernova17]

Then your tanks need some serious help with their setup or whatever it is they're doing. Our Warlock and I can push 5k on the multi-mob encounters in FTH, yeah he and I will peel aggro here and there, but we can put alot of hurt into the encounter before they come after us. All we both have is our Troubador for hate decrease, and Warlock has Coercer decrease when he can spare the conc.I am a Warlock too, created mine back in early 05 and enjoyed the overpowered days, ah that was bliss. Don't go judging me too quickly =P

[miliskel]

<cite>Supernova17 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Then your tanks need some serious help with their setup or whatever it is they're doing. Our Warlock and I can push 5k on the multi-mob encounters in FTH, yeah he and I will peel aggro here and there, but we can put alot of hurt into the encounter before they come after us. All we both have is our Troubador for hate decrease, and Warlock has Coercer decrease when he can spare the conc.I am a Warlock too, created mine back in early 05 and enjoyed the overpowered days, ah that was bliss. Don't go judging me too quickly =P</blockquote>ok, well my tank is great imo, i can do alot of dps with the proper setup im used to but in this extremely unfortunate raid where tank had swash / coercer in af for hate gain and i had nothing it went terribly wrong lol..yet onlyl wizards and warlocks were pulling aggro from doing over 1k dps =/

[Foosa]

FHT and Lyctum/DT are 2 completely different zones now as far as aggro. i  used to be able to pull 2k+ ZW in mmis have seen 3400 ish inside FTH. around 3200 ish on the 2 dbl blood clossis with out ever  getting aggro, now same raid went to Dt the other day after mmis. if i casted any group nukes i got aggro and died. even waiting 20-30 seconds to cast, this is rediculious imo, hate is not the same in these zones any longer. group was fury,warlock,trouby,conj,illusionist. (dont remember last spot). myself and the illusionist we constantly dying in dt, not once in mmis....

[Supernova17]

<cite>miliskel wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>ok, well my tank is great imo, i can do alot of dps with the proper setup im used to but in this extremely unfortunate raid where tank had swash / coercer in af for hate gain and i had nothing it went terribly wrong lol..yet onlyl wizards and warlocks were pulling aggro from doing over 1k dps =/</blockquote>Nature of the beast, spike damage. In Lyceum I can pull aggro without a Troub too, gotta get your Summoners into shape! But yeah, you're very reliant on other classes for hate management.

[Supernova17]

<cite>Tawls@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>FHT and Lyctum/DT are 2 completely different zones now as far as aggro. i  used to be able to pull 2k+ ZW in mmis have seen 3400 ish inside FTH. around 3200 ish on the 2 dbl blood clossis with out ever  getting aggro, now same raid went to Dt the other day after mmis. if i casted any group nukes i got aggro and died. even waiting 20-30 seconds to cast, this is rediculious imo, hate is not the same in these zones any longer. group was fury,warlock,trouby,conj,illusionist. (dont remember last spot). myself and the illusionist we constantly dying in dt, not once in mmis....</blockquote>Hate doesn't change from zone to zone...There are a multitude of factors influencing the hate list, and I need'nt list them all, but these are just a few you won't see from the Mage group unless you know what to look for:Tanks - Resisted taunts, missed auto-attacks/combat arts, impaired and not getting cured (stun/stifle etc), not hate buffed properly. Your raid has SERIOUS PROBLEMS if you go into a 30 minute zone like DT and pull aggro after not AOE'ing for 20 seconds or so. Find out the problem, find out who is at fault, warn them and if they don't improve boot them. Just the other week we were trying out a new Mystic who wasn't debuffing quickly or curing, the end result was our OT Zerker had to run more defensively because he we getting his butt kicked and consequently lost aggro to the Mages far more often. Trying out a new Defiler who seems to be on the ball, the OT Zerker is rolling Offensive Stance, 1h+Buckler, over 1500dps easily on singles and is holding aggro off the Mages like a champ even in AOE fights. One person not doing their job can screw up a lot of other people.

[miliskel]

it may be 30 mins for a hardcore guild with tanks in uber gear and casters with plenty of procs ect..but for casual guilds it takes alot longer than half an hour to complete it and also zones have different resists on creatures so taunts may be resisted  more or less.

[Lurch72]

<p>Wait, people still raid Lyceum and DT?</p><p> On mains?</p>

[miliskel]

amazing how many people dont offer anything to convo but do not see the difference between casual and hc guilds and like to point it out..

[Formerly Bbert]

the points about resisted taunts & stuns/stifles on your tank are very valid.  Your tank is going to be stunned a lot in DT if your healers aren't on the ball, and the mobs in there do tend to resist taunts more.

[Roukai]

<cite>Lurch72 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Wait, people still raid Lyceum and DT?</p><p> On mains?</p></blockquote>I still raid Lyceum and DT, on my main, in search of the elusive Bracelet of Thule and Breath of the Destroyer. Yes, on my main, and even if i didn't NEED/Want them, who's to say it was just for the hell of it, few people getting bored of the same EoF zones or just helping some friends out in LoA/DT.. I know i have done HoS, LoA, ToS just to raise the guild and equip new members. I have the lvl 70 fabled BP off Mayong, Soulfire staff, and alter that drops from him (with the exception of Soulfire), and yes, our guild has killed him often. So, why then would i want to sit here and listen to your little coments about Lyceum and DT, on a post about how class reliant we are. IF you dont think we are .. try grouping/raiding LoA with people who dont normally raid and see how relient we are.. constructive input would be soooo nice.. if you have anything worth while to say.. please, don't say anything.

[Deathspell]

<cite>Lurch72 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Wait, people still raid Lyceum and DT?</p><p> On mains?</p></blockquote>In fact, those raidzone still have some really good items.E.g. the brainworm earring in DT or that caster ring in Lyceum.  Give me equivalent items from EOF raids, I bet there aren't many.I'm sure there are, but EOF raids are a lot harder than KoS.And considering KoS raids are easier...why shouldn't people still be raiding them?