Someone come quick... he's choking...

[DarumaRanger]

<p>Oh my... ohmyohmyohmyohmy...   </p><p>So, as I'm coming into the final tier of the game, (for a couple more months at least anyway, hehehe), I thought I'd paruse the Broker and try to get myself "Master'd out."</p><p>All of my spells since T5 have been Adept III, with the odd Master I, and of course my Master II choice per tier.</p><p>I have to say... at least on my server... for those of you who might all be "Master'd out" .... are you NUTS???? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>An example:  A3 Greater Bloodflow was on the Broker... as was the Master for Greater Bloodflow.   </p><p>The A3 was 89'ish gold.   The Master was... <gulp>  19 plat !!!   NINETEEN !!!   </p><p>Ummmm... no... not... nuh uh... ain't gonna happen.   </p><p>Ain't no way no how I'd ever consider paying soooooo much more for any of those Masters vs their A3 counterparts for a relatively small, (in comparison to the cost differential), increase in performance.   </p><p>With that type of cost differential for such a minor increase in performance I'm convinced that having Master spell upgrades, (for the most part), is for nothing more than  [Removed for Content] wagging.   </p><p>Why on Tunare's green Norrath would you ever waste that kind of money??? /boggle   </p><p>Maybe... MAYBE... once there's a T8 but with yet another tier coming down the pike... nuh uh... can't see investing in Masters vs A3 for that kind of money.   </p><p>Sure, if I find one that I think is valuable for a relatively good deal I'll buy it... but then again the cheaper Masters, such as Thornskin, aren't worth the plat anyway... what do I care if my damage shield does a few measly points more damage per hit?  It's not my damage shield that's winning fights. </p><p>And even while the cost is several plat less than say, the nuke, DoT, or heal... proportionately it's still the same order of magnitude more expensive than its A3 counterpart... so I probably still wouldn't buy it.   </p><p><shrugs> Maybe I'm missing something here?</p><p>If I were swimming in plat, as some good crafters and players are, then maybe, (even then I'm not sure my "cheap sense" would allow it, hehehe).  However, if it would break your bank, or simply bring you down to a plat or two left at best... would you buy the Masters if they're consistently 10x, (or MORE), more expensive than their A3 counterparts?</p><p>If so... why?  I mean... a real reason why... not because "My hardcore raiding guild requires it."  WHY do they require it?  Would a fully "Master'd out" Fury really contribute more to a raid, (taking the extreme end of the game here as an example), than a Fury in all A3 with his Master II as his heal?  <--- Again, talking raid here where a Fury is, I believe, put in for healing/buffing/curing not DPS'ing.</p><p>I'd love to be able to join in on some PUG raids.  I've got a friend in a hardcore raiding guild, (and yes, this post is almost an exact copy of the email I'm sending him, hehehe), that has some more casual "Friends and family" raiding sessions a couple times per week.   Would I be turned down because my heals/buffs are not Master I?</p><p>I mean... for those prices... that's INSANE???</p><p>Don't get me wrong.  I'm all for capitalism and if someone is willing to pay those prices... by all means... those of you with the Masters... sell 'em for as much as you can.  This isn't a post about pricing... it's about whether or not folks here truly think that the benefits gained for a Master I vs an A3 are worth the price differences I'm seeing.</p><p>Oh... to put more of a point on it... I can get all my A3's made for nothing more than the cost of the rare and allowing my crafter friend to keep the dusts.  So, in my particular case these price differentials are even greater. </p><p>Ok... time to go back and drool over the Masters again... I may not think they're worth the price... doesn't mean I can't WANT them though <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>I'm really curious as to your thoughts on this.</p><p>Take care folks.</p>

[Jynnan]

You make a good point! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> I, too, cannot afford those sorts of prices - hell, my Fury has been playing since May 2005 and is still yet to make level 70 (currently 69.44! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />) I've also only had up to 25 plat at any one time, so spending 19p on a master is definitely "no go".As a "casual" player, I think it is unlikely that I will ever be "mastered-out".With the advent of RoK and the raising of the level cap, the prices for current T7 masters may come down (who'd want to pay 20p for a spell now that will "expire" in the next 13 levels?), but we'll see.

[Angitia]

Quite sad I know. Who has 19 plat for a spell? Just be thankful that you aren't a mage. Their master spells are insanely high priced. Many of my heals are mastered, but I was lucky cause they were drops.

[DarumaRanger]

<cite>Astraste wrote:</cite><blockquote>Quite sad I know. Who has 19 plat for a spell? Just be thankful that you aren't a mage. Their master spells are insanely high priced. Many of my heals are mastered, but I was lucky cause they were drops.</blockquote><p>OMG !! I hear you. Just to make myself feel better I checked out some Necro and Conj pet spells.</p><p>Some were like 60, SIXTY, plat !!</p><p>It's enough to almost make you want to buy plat, LOL.</p><p>I'm not there yet... buy my god if I were a Necro or Conj. I'd seriously consider it <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Chaosfairie27]

The most I've ever had at one time is about 11 plat. My poor fury still has some *gasp* adept 1 spells, bad, I know. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Vatec]

Two points:A.  Don't assume that an "outrageous" price on the broker is fixed.  It might just be an invitation to negotiate.  Or it may be what they =thought= they could sell it for, but it's been sitting for a while and they'd be willing to sell for less if someone expressed and interest.B.  It's quite common in MMOs for players to pay 10x the price for a 5% or 10% improvement in performance.  MMO economies don't quite follow the rules of RL economies for the simple reason that there's an endless supply of money.  You get money from killing monsters, even grey ones.  You get money from selling harvested items.  You get money from selling crafted items.  And there's always someone with lots of time on their hands who considers one or more of these methods "fun."  So they'll have the cash to spend on such things.  If you think this is bad, you should have seen the economy in Asheron's Call where a "tier" 7 item was priced in the millions of pyreals and a "tier" 6 item would often be sold as vendor trash unless it had some other redeeming quality.Yeah, it's annoying.  But there's not a heck of a lot you can do other than message the sellers and ask if the price is negotiable.  And simply refuse to buy if it isn't....

[Gutwren]

I can't wait to be able to two box through unrest and farm it at level 80... that seems like it will be fun.

[DarumaRanger]

<p>Got a reply from my raid friend, and it makes sense.  I figured raid situations might be different which is why I specified raids in my post.</p><p>I'm changing his and his guild's name here, but otherwise here's a copy/paste of his reply:</p><p>************************************************** ***********************</p><p>Yes, <my guild> requires at minimum ad3 on all spells 56 and up. Masters are required for key spells on some classes and is encouraged for all. They do not seem to make a big difference because you are not raid buffed. Self buffed I stand at 540ish on INT which accounts for 60% of my damage and raid buffed I'm 800ish. The thing is for solo Masters just give you an added edge over the AD3... But in raid that difference is multiplied which is further enhanced when you throw in crits... My nuke/snare spell went from 2.5-3k crits to 3.5-4k crits buy upgrading from an AD3 to M1 in raid. Imagine what the difference in heals would be, or a key debuff, or a nuke by a wiz... I'm sure this is old hat for <Frik> and <Frak>, but ultimately there is a big difference between AD3 and M1 on a raid. Most raids are running on the ragged edge of defeat on encounters, so every little bit helps... </p><p>Another instance is my DeathMarch... AD3 is 56DPS increase where as M1 is 63... but applied to 4 nukers in my group .... It's a significant difference....</p><p>************************************************** **************************</p><p>I hadn't thought of it like that but it makes perfect sense.  </p><p>However, having said that...</p><p>I still ain't payin' no 19 plat for a heal, LOL... you, me, the entire raid force will just have to die if the A3 won't cut it <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Gutwren]

Eh, haggled with a plat farmer (it's very difficult to do...)... got it for 7p on my Fury.

[RogueSpideyChick]

wait till u go for the buffs & ancient teachings. theyre rarer too. it took me about 6 months to get completely mastered out because i couldnt get my hands on a copy of hibernate till the free transfers. most of my masters came from guildies, guild bank for dkp, or raids (shoulda heard me go O M G in vent when the lvl 70 group hot dropped in raid). i think i actually paid for MAYBE 10 of my own masters, the rest came from guildies or luck in groups.  ive spent anywhere from 2p (t7 deaggro) to 50p (hibernate, was gonna pay 80p but a friend found it for cheaper durin free transfers), with several 40p's in between for buffs (primal spirit, carnal mask) on masters. if ur lucky, u may be able to get some off ur guildies for either cheap, tradin masters or a favor or 2 (gave a guildie a sage cloak after i got my own for a master coupla months ago).the extra boost to heals, buffs & dps help a LOT. if u check out some of the increases from ad3 to m1, it's pretty significant on some.  makes the heals more efficient for the power cost so u dont have to spam AS much as u would if u didnt have them mastered.  also in a raid, EVERY lil bit helps ESPECIALLY when it's a big nasty orange mob & ur tank's JUST bout to die & u gotta pop off that big heal

[Catsy]

One other reason spells are frequently up for seemingly ridiculous prices is because when the seller went to put it on the broker, someone else already had it up for around that price, and not knowing any better they set theirs to slightly undercut it. At some point the other person's sold or was taken off the market, and one remained at the price range they were mimicking.Truth be told, 19p was actually a reasonable price for Greater Bloodflow, given that it's one of the fury's bread and butter spells. This is less true now that RoK is going to be coming out and upgrading them all. I wouldn't pay more than about 10p for it now, preferably less.Some are harder to find than others. I just dropped 18p on Ring of Fire the other day, and I'd pay just about any price for Back into the Fray.

[quetzaqotl]

<p>Hehe I mustve spent hundreds of plats on my spells I have all spells master1 cept for primal spirit (gdi never seen it for sale).</p><p>If youre in a good guild and people are a bit social as in trying to keep master spells in guild then it wont be that big of a problem, master spells are dropping much more often than they did at the beginning of eq2 o give to guildies and in return receive from guildies.</p><p>If youre in a raiding guild some use the guildbank to get their members their key spells (which is the way a raiding guild should operate imo).</p><p>I dont ts ever I get my plat from soloing mostly used to make money harvesting rares but farming nameds brings in steel boxes too also dont underestimate genociding huge amounts of solo mobs for their corpse loot and vendor trash boxes (ive had solo mobs dropping steel too a few times).</p><p>Oh and on a side note I got bitf for 50 g <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Caethre]

<p><span style="color: #ff6600;">OOC.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">My thoughts on this are based on two things.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Firstly, Masters are the top-tier quality and are intended to be rare and hard to acquire (either in time spent hunting to get them, or in time spent earning coin with which to purchase them from other players). I feel no sense of entitlement to them, and I don't believe anyone else has the right to feel any entitlement to them.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Secondly, they are simply not required. Desirable yes, but I know that I can play the entire game (as any class) without having any of them. They are absolutely not essential for defeating content. Now, you may run against the "expectations" of other players, but that is a social issue. Personally I prefer to group with someone who knows how to play their class (any class) with AdeptIII spells, than one of the army of very poor players who happens to have some or lots of Master spells.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">However, all this said, aspiring to improve ones character is something that pervades all playstyles, and there is nothing at all wrong with that! </span><span style="color: #ff6600;">Personally, I have acquired almost all my masters by buying them from other players, directly or via the broker. I don't get them from hunting as I do not see them drop often, and since I never raid and have no interest in raidguilds, I do not have a supply in that way that some have.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Coin can be earned hunting, tradeskilling or harvesting, and it is not difficult to turn a profit either way. However, all of these need time invested of course. Personally, I have made almost all my coin by tradeskilling. It has been an awful lot of work over 2 3/4 years so far, but the profit it has turned has allowed me to buy master spells for my earlier characters.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">As a result, my Templar is now fully mastered, and my Fury is missing just one (Ferine Vim). My Conjuror is still missing six masters. The Tier 7 pets are all at 50-100p on the broker, which is so high I can't afford that right now, so she will make do with Adept III until I acquire them another way or save the coin. They clearly sell at that price, so I will just have to buckle down and get to it.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Anyone* can earn coin. It takes time and patience, but it is not actually difficult. However, if you simply do not want to spend the time to earn coin, and just want to spend your time online doing other things that do not earn any coin, then you will have to settle for Adept IIIs until they drop for you at random (or someone gives you them for free, but in most cases, don't hold your breath hehe).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Good luck. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p>

[azcandace]

<p>i am stuck at ad3 aswell and wouldn't mind upgrading to master if it made that difference. I completely understand where you're coming from too, what I'm amazed at is how people talk about how much they spent or atleast on my server. I'm not talking about 19plat either I'm talking 100+ I don't know what classes they are or what spells they buy but it amazes me how common they make it sound to buy for that amount. I know crafting and rares are the big seller but where is everyone getting this money?</p><p>And as to mastering out, if on the rare occansion I actually can, I check the upgrade first. It just seems to me they arn't worth upgrading even if your guild demands it? Or atleast I don't see a big difference between ad3s and master.</p><p>BTW was happy to read someone mention AC lol been so long was starting to think the players dissapeared o.0</p>

[DarumaRanger]

<p>I actually crunched the numbers yesterday when again I browsed the broker for Greater Bloodflow.</p><p>Greater Bloodflow Master 1 = 16 plat, 80 gold</p><p>Greater Bloodflow Adept III = 82 gold, 50 silver</p><p>The total difference in healing over a 10 second period between the two was a measly 366 HP.  Yes, that 366 HP could... COULD... mean the difference between living and dying... but considering all the other tools we have for healing... I sincerely doubt that anyone kitted with "only" A3 vs someone with Master 1 would have a noticably harder time keeping a group alive or be the difference between a raid success or failure.</p><p>I say that knowing full well I've never raided and "have no clue what I'm talking about."  I'm saying it anyway <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Assuming two equally skilled Furies, equally geared, and the only difference being one has a Master 1 Greater Bloodflow and the other doesn't... there will be no difference in the outcome of a raid IMHO.  Even if ALL of their spells were A3 vs M1. </p><p>I just can't bring myself, even if I were swimming in plat, to spend 16 plat MORE for a lousy 366 more HP healed over 10 seconds.  And actually for me... it's even greater difference because all I have to do is purchase the rare Rough Moonstone, (46 gold... already bought), and voila... I have an Adpet III made for me by a friend.  So, for me it's 46 gold vs 16 plat, 80 gold for 366 more HP healed... nuh uh <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>I may be passed over for raids... but that's ok by me... I'll do just fine holding onto my 16 plat... waiting to see what I can buy when RoK comes out, LOL.</p><p>Take care folks.</p>

[Celiondra]

<cite>DarumaRanger wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Got a reply from my raid friend, and it makes sense.  I figured raid situations might be different which is why I specified raids in my post.</p><p>I'm changing his and his guild's name here, but otherwise here's a copy/paste of his reply:</p><p>************************************************** ***********************</p><p>Yes, <my guild> requires at minimum ad3 on all spells 56 and up. Masters are required for key spells on some classes and is encouraged for all. They do not seem to make a big difference because you are not raid buffed. Self buffed I stand at 540ish on INT which accounts for 60% of my damage and raid buffed I'm 800ish. The thing is for solo Masters just give you an added edge over the AD3... But in raid that difference is multiplied which is further enhanced when you throw in crits... My nuke/snare spell went from 2.5-3k crits to 3.5-4k crits buy upgrading from an AD3 to M1 in raid. Imagine what the difference in heals would be, or a key debuff, or a nuke by a wiz... I'm sure this is old hat for <Frik> and <Frak>, but ultimately there is a big difference between AD3 and M1 on a raid. Most raids are running on the ragged edge of defeat on encounters, so every little bit helps... </p><p>Another instance is my DeathMarch... AD3 is 56DPS increase where as M1 is 63... but applied to 4 nukers in my group .... It's a significant difference....</p><p>************************************************** **************************</p><p>I hadn't thought of it like that but it makes perfect sense.  </p><p>However, having said that...</p><p>I still ain't payin' no 19 plat for a heal, LOL... you, me, the entire raid force will just have to die if the A3 won't cut it <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>Hahaha.. I'm with ya there.  If "the guild" is requiring all that, then "the guild" better be supplying me with the masters. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />