crafted arrow level change?

[Lodor]

<p>Ok so i looking in my quivver to restack arrows so i could fit some more in. As i moved them around i noticed arrows item levels were lowered.</p><p>Arrows used to all be 10/20/30/40/50/60 but now the all seem to go by 7/17/27/etc.</p><p>Yet to craft say the old lvl 60 arrow it took lvl 63 woodworker but now the arrows come out as level 57 which is a tier 6 item not a tier 7 item. Why would a lvl 63 craft lvl item produce stuff from a lower teir going by item level?</p><p> Something just does not seem right here.</p>

[BigChiefJJ]

<p>Was goign to start a new thread but found this after I had already written my comment so here goes. </p><p>I noticed that since the last GU woodworker arrows now have an actual level.  The adamantine arrows that are a level 63 recipe produce level 57 arrows.  This does fit in with research that was done on Bow and arrow effects showing that a level 57 bow will benefit from 100% of its damage potential while using adamantine arrows, but a level 67 bow will only produce about 93% of its damage potential using those same arrows.  This seems that it actually makes adamantine arrows a Tier 6 arrow instead of a Tier 7 arrow.  Is this fair to all of those that actually use a bow?  When a Tier 7 weapon is made, it is level 60 or level 62, why are arrows any different?  Doing this may allow people in the lower tiers use higher tier arrows, but it is actually hurting those of us that want to use tier specific arrows. </p>

[TaleraRis]

Not to mention that now we have to look to a higher tier earlier just to maintain the DPS that we have established. Which of course drives up the maintenance price on an already expensive class like a ranger.

[Calthine]

grrr, and I have to redo all the ammo in the database.

[Rijacki]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>grrr, and I have to redo all the ammo in the database.</blockquote>I'd hold off on database changes on Allakhazam until it's confirmed to be intentional.  It does seem rather wonkey that a recipe produces something a tier below.  That's unlike anything else in crafting.

[Calthine]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>grrr, and I have to redo all the ammo in the database.</blockquote>I'd hold off on database changes on Allakhazam until it's confirmed to be intentional.  It does seem rather wonkey that a recipe produces something a tier below.  That's unlike anything else in crafting.</blockquote>Oh, no worries there.  There are 350 item pictures in my "to do" directory, and that's not even looking at my "screenshots to process" directory!

[BigChiefJJ]

<p>Domino, is this something that you can check into?  Are adamantine arrows really level 57 as the graphic displays or are they lvl 60 as the broker search displays?  Not sure if this would fall into your department or the combat mechanics or the look and feal department?  But you have been helpful in the past so I thought you would be a good starting point (chocolate will be in the mail this afternoon!)</p><p>I guess the answer that I'm really looking for is am I making and using T7 ammo or T6 ammo when i use adamantine arrows?</p>

[Malchore]

<p>There's a very simple fix to this.</p><p>All common arrow recipees should be level x7 and produce level x7 arrows.</p><p>Level 7 recipee produces level 7 arrows.  Level 67 recipee produces level 67 arrows etc.  Those of us with the Raincaller bow would have to buy Colbalt arrows instead of Adamantine arrows.</p><p>It would mean the Woodworker class would have to have some significant rearraingement of the levels of their recipees.  Which is exactly why it will never be done.</p>

[Condar Tarsonia]

<cite>Malchore wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>There's a very simple fix to this.</p><p>All common arrow recipees should be level x7 and produce level x7 arrows.</p><p><span style="color: #cc3300;">Level 7 recipee produces level 7 arrows.</span>  Level 67 recipee produces level 67 arrows etc.  Those of us with the Raincaller bow would have to buy Colbalt arrows instead of Adamantine arrows.</p><p>It would mean the Woodworker class would have to have some significant rearraingement of the levels of their recipees.  Which is exactly why it will never be done.</p></blockquote>So what about levels 1-6? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />  Granted, they don't last long, but... plus by doing that, doesn't the still cause the tier imbalance issue?  For instance, a Ranger hits level 50, but for 7 levels can't use the appropriate arrows - he's stuck with the old tier.I think the simpler fix would simply be to leave arrows where they are in the recipe books and make them level x0 (or x1, since I'm not quite sure how the 'tiered' ammo works as was being discussed, and if x0 would still be considered the lower tier...).Edit: Re-reading the thread, it seems the above is how they were previously, so it doesn't seem like it would take much to fix it after all <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Malchore]

<cite>Condar Tarsonia wrote:</cite><blockquote>So what about levels 1-6? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />  Granted, they don't last long, but... plus by doing that, doesn't the still cause the tier imbalance issue?  For instance, a Ranger hits level 50, but for 7 levels can't use the appropriate arrows - he's stuck with the old tier.</blockquote><p>A player can use any arrows in any bow.  The combat mechanics has some sort of formula to calculate a penalty to the damage done.  Since the best arrows a WW can craft are level 57, a lot of rangers suffer a penalty to damage when using lvl 67 or 70 bows.</p><p>It seems the developers who create items are fairly consistent with bows.  The fabled bows are either level 67 or 70.  It would be nice if the Tradeskilled arrows followed a similar progression.  Common recipee produces level 67 arrows and a rare recipee produces level 70 arrows.  This would help Rangers quite a bit.</p><p>The unknown is the relationships of the developers.  Does Domino have to go talk to the game mechanics programmer about something like this?  Or ViseVersa?  Would a Producer have to get involved?  I think since this change to a Tradeskill would have a helpful impact to an Adventurer in combat, maybe there's some kind of hesitation among the devs.  Either way, it would be nice to know which particular Dev we are supposed to complain to.</p>

[BigChiefJJ]

<p>Well there are no more rare tradeskill arrows, these were removed when sub-combines went away.  All WW arrows (except for tin) are actually usable 3 levels before you reach the tier that the WW creates them in (lvl 60 arrows can be used at lvl 57), I'm not sure if you can actually use higher level arrows or not i.e. a lvl 15 character using feyiron arrows?</p><p>The problem that has been stated before is that there is (or at least appears to be) some type of game mechanic that takes arrow level into consideration when calculating damage from a bow.  The best arrows that are available in mass (WW adamantine arrows) only allow lvl 70 bows to do about 77% of their damage potential because they are flagged as lvl 57.  Changing the level of arrows to 60 (as they were before) would only slightly increase the efficiency of the bows as you would still be using level 60 ammo with a level 70 bow.  What would be nice is if the interdependency of bow damage to arrow level were only tied to the tier of the arrow and not a specific level.</p><p>Adding rare crafted arrows, and giving the Xegonite ones a level 67 would be nice but I would think that you would really have to tweek the amount made from one Xegonite cluster to make them cost effective to use.  Rangers now can go through 500-2000 arrows a raid, I really would not like to think that I'd have to use up 10 xegonite clusters per raid to get the full damage potential of my bow.  </p>

[Oakleafe]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>grrr, and I have to redo all the ammo in the database.</blockquote>I'd hold off on database changes on Allakhazam until it's confirmed to be intentional.  It does seem rather wonkey that a recipe produces something a tier below.  That's unlike anything else in crafting.</blockquote>Actually many totems are like this too. e.g. Jaguar (invis) totem is a level 49 recipe usable at level 30<cite>Wodreaux@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Adding rare crafted arrows, and giving the Xegonite ones a level 67 would be nice but I would think that you would really have to tweek the amount made from one Xegonite cluster to make them cost effective to use.  Rangers now can go through 500-2000 arrows a raid, I really would not like to think that I'd have to use up 10 xegonite clusters per raid to get the full damage potential of my bow.  </p></blockquote>The old "rare" arrows were made using a compound that was created from armourer/weaponsmith rare creations.i.e. If a rare chest item was made to pristine level you got a rare ingot (can't remember the actual name) back, and that ingot was used to make the arrows (may have got more than one back, my memory is hazy on that)The scholar made (rare) Adept I creations still work a bit like this, where the pristine level returns a rare loam that alchemists can use to make poisons, potions etc.  This means that the principal at least is still in the game.If the principal was re-introduced to allow wood workers to make "rare" arrows using a resultant ore/ingot generated by metal based rare crafters then perhaps the handcrafted arrows could remain as they are (as they must be like that for a reason, even if we can't fathom out what it is) and mastercrafted arrows could be made to a level that would help keep bow based dps up.If this were to happen I'd hope that the same would be done for throwing weapons to keep adventure classes level.

[BigChiefJJ]

<cite>Oakleafe wrote:</cite><blockquote>The old "rare" arrows were made using a compound that was created from armourer/weaponsmith rare creations.i.e. If a rare chest item was made to pristine level you got a rare ingot (can't remember the actual name) back, and that ingot was used to make the arrows (may have got more than one back, my memory is hazy on that)The scholar made (rare) Adept I creations still work a bit like this, where the pristine level returns a rare loam that alchemists can use to make poisons, potions etc.  This means that the principal at least is still in the game.If the principal was re-introduced to allow wood workers to make "rare" arrows using a resultant ore/ingot generated by metal based rare crafters then perhaps the handcrafted arrows could remain as they are (as they must be like that for a reason, even if we can't fathom out what it is) and mastercrafted arrows could be made to a level that would help keep bow based dps up.If this were to happen I'd hope that the same would be done for throwing weapons to keep adventure classes level.</blockquote><p>The old ‘rare' arrows were made using ingots (you would get 4 I believe from a pristine combination of an ___ bar) that could be turned into an arrowhead and that arrowhead could be made into 25 arrows.  The arrows are quite nice - I actually still have some feysteel ones from a while back - I'll have to look and see what level they are actually listed as.  While it would be nice to have this principal, If we got 4 ingots (this would be a step back to subcomponents in the crafting minds though) from one combine (which you would need an armorer to generate for you)  the cost of these arrows would defiantly increase to the consumer.  Rangers that are currently spending 4-5 gp per 100 arrows (my server average price) would see that price increase greatly especially if rangers had to rely on two tradeskill classes to make money from them (armorer to create the ingots and WW to create the arrows).   I think what doing this would do is basically drive down the price of all rare armor (or at least the highest tier) as armorers would basically be creating armor to get the by products to sell for arrows and placing the armor on the broker at low prices to get rid of it.  I know there is an argument that if you want the better damage you pay for it, but unfortunately the best thing usable typically becomes the default i.e. pristine or bust and if rare arrows are introduced they would be required by rangers, so they would need to be made affordable and obtainable is usable quantaties .</p><p>While it would be nice to see this change go to all throwing weapons I don't think you have the disparity with hammers, knives, axes and shurrikans as you have with arrows simply from a numbers standpoint.   Someone using throwing weapons might go through 100 a night and this accounts for <2% of their total Damage where a ranger will go through hundreds of arrows a night and this accounts for 25-40% of their total damage.  </p>

[Ranja]

I wonder if they have any plans of addressing this horrendous mechanic?

[BigChiefJJ]

<cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wonder if they have any plans of addressing this horrendous mechanic?</blockquote><p>Yes they do:   Soon ^TM </p><p>Honestly I don't think anything will be addressed until next year - its going to be work on RoK until its release then its going to be fix / tweek it until the end of the year.  So I would not expect much in the way of any major changes - and this arrow mechanic is more than likely a major change, until end of this year beginning of next year.</p><p>Just remember Soon ^TM </p>

[ke'la]

<cite>Wodreaux@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Oakleafe wrote:</cite><blockquote>The old "rare" arrows were made using a compound that was created from armourer/weaponsmith rare creations.i.e. If a rare chest item was made to pristine level you got a rare ingot (can't remember the actual name) back, and that ingot was used to make the arrows (may have got more than one back, my memory is hazy on that)The scholar made (rare) Adept I creations still work a bit like this, where the pristine level returns a rare loam that alchemists can use to make poisons, potions etc.  This means that the principal at least is still in the game.If the principal was re-introduced to allow wood workers to make "rare" arrows using a resultant ore/ingot generated by metal based rare crafters then perhaps the handcrafted arrows could remain as they are (as they must be like that for a reason, even if we can't fathom out what it is) and mastercrafted arrows could be made to a level that would help keep bow based dps up.If this were to happen I'd hope that the same would be done for throwing weapons to keep adventure classes level.</blockquote><p>The old ‘rare' arrows were made using ingots (you would get 4 I believe from a pristine combination of an ___ bar) that could be turned into an arrowhead and that arrowhead could be made into 25 arrows.  The arrows are quite nice - I actually still have some feysteel ones from a while back - I'll have to look and see what level they are actually listed as.  While it would be nice to have this principal, If we got 4 ingots (this would be a step back to subcomponents in the crafting minds though) from one combine (which you would need an armorer to generate for you)  the cost of these arrows would defiantly increase to the consumer.  Rangers that are currently spending 4-5 gp per 100 arrows (my server average price) would see that price increase greatly especially if rangers had to rely on two tradeskill classes to make money from them (armorer to create the ingots and WW to create the arrows).   I think what doing this would do is basically drive down the price of all rare armor (or at least the highest tier) as armorers would basically be creating armor to get the by products to sell for arrows and placing the armor on the broker at low prices to get rid of it.  I know there is an argument that if you want the better damage you pay for it, but unfortunately the best thing usable typically becomes the default i.e. pristine or bust and if rare arrows are introduced they would be required by rangers, so they would need to be made affordable and obtainable is usable quantaties .</p><p>While it would be nice to see this change go to all throwing weapons I don't think you have the disparity with hammers, knives, axes and shurrikans as you have with arrows simply from a numbers standpoint.   Someone using throwing weapons might go through 100 a night and this accounts for <2% of their total Damage where a ranger will go through hundreds of arrows a night and this accounts for 25-40% of their total damage.  </p></blockquote><p>Well how about instead of making it an inter depenant thing, just make is so that the Rare Arrow Recipies require  4 times the non-rare Raws and fuel + 1 rare and result in 4 times the number of arrows you get in a standard pristine batch. So if a standard arrrow pristine batch nets you 100 arrows then a Rare Arrow Recipie would net you 400 arrows per combine and make them lvl 10, 20, 30, etc., that should midigate to a degree the issue of them comming from rare ores. At the same time move the effective lvl of non-Rare Arrows to 1, 10, 20, etc. </p><p>So:Andimantine Arrows would be lvl 60 and 1 combine = 100 arrowsXenonite Arrows would be lvl 70 and 1 combine = 400 arrows</p><p>ofcourse you the Rare arrows would have a slighte but notacable stat advantage over the commin arrows of the following tier as well(also to compisate for the relative rarity of the ore).</p>

[Arleonenis]

<blockquote><cite>Wodreaux@Nektulos wrote:</cite><p>Well how about instead of making it an inter depenant thing, just make is so that the Rare Arrow Recipies require  4 times the non-rare Raws and fuel + 1 rare and result in 4 times the number of arrows you get in a standard pristine batch. So if a standard arrrow pristine batch nets you 100 arrows then a Rare Arrow Recipie would net you 400 arrows per combine and make them lvl 10, 20, 30, etc., that should midigate to a degree the issue of them comming from rare ores. At the same time move the effective lvl of non-Rare Arrows to 1, 10, 20, etc. </p><p>So:Andimantine Arrows would be lvl 60 and 1 combine = 100 arrowsXenonite Arrows would be lvl 70 and 1 combine = 400 arrows</p><p>ofcourse you the Rare arrows would have a slighte but notacable stat advantage over the commin arrows of the following tier as well(also to compisate for the relative rarity of the ore).</p></blockquote>best idea i saw on this topic but i think 60 and 69 for t7 would look better to not put t6 mastercrafted at same level as t7 regulars. Also 600 arrows per pristine sound little better for 1 rare and 6xcommon+fuel. No idea how hard would be to get rares in RoK and with your proposition it would be 6 rares per quiver so 6 rares per day... extreme costly imho....

[Webin]

<cite>Arleonenis</cite><blockquote>it would be 6 rares per quiver so 6 rares per day... extreme costly imho....</blockquote>It would be way too costly to fill up a quiver, which happens at least once a week (for me), and all the xegonite available in the world would quickly disappear.  Rangers burn through way too many arrows for a mastercrafted arrow to be feasible.... we'd need something more like 2000 arrows per xegonite cluster.  I forget the current price of a xeg cluster but it's currently in the 50g range (?).  By comparison, I can get 2000 adamantine arrows for around 35g.

[Giland]

2000 arrows for 35 gold is dirt cheap.I generally pay 3.5 gold per stack, so 35 gold per 1000, 70 gold for 2000.

[BigChiefJJ]

<cite>Giland@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>2000 arrows for 35 gold is dirt cheap.I generally pay 3.5 gold per stack, so 35 gold per 1000, 70 gold for 2000.</blockquote><p>35 gp is approximately the cost of 1 stack of T7 Fuel, this plus 25 ore, 25 wood and 25 roots and a very nice WW will net you about 20-25 stacks of arrows if the WW does not charge you for his/her time to do said 20-25 combines.  </p><p>Of course you cannot request this amount of work from the friendly woodworker ever other day and twice on weekends otherwise the friendly WW becomes unfriendly and decides that arrows should cost more because he/she is not able to get away from the WW table.  </p><p>Fuel cost alone on a stack of arrows is right at 1.5 gp add in about 10-50 sp for the raw materials and you are looking at the WW spending about 2 gp per stack of arrows made.   </p>

[Rast]

how about just remove the idiotic mechanic that makes this even an issue?  Make it so you can't use arrows above the level of the bow and the bonus is what is on the arrow, not some poorly thought out idea that really has no place in the game (much like the level of armor changing mitigation because it is a different level)

[BigChiefJJ]

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>how about just remove the idiotic mechanic that makes this even an issue?  Make it so you can't use arrows above the level of the bow and the bonus is what is on the arrow, not some poorly thought out idea that really has no place in the game (much like the level of armor changing mitigation because it is a different level)</blockquote><p>This would be a wonderful help to the ranger community, but you would have to turn it around and have to use arrows at least as high as your bow (same tier or higher as your bow would be the optimal solution as long as there was no penalties for using lvl 60 arrows with a lvl 69 bow).  </p><p>If you could only use arrows with a lower level than your bow, and there was no penalty for using lower level (tier) arrows, then everyone would be running around shooting tin arrows at mobs for the low cost of 1 cp each.</p><p>This change if not done correctly could turn into a pain currently as adamantine arrows are designated as lvl 57 or 60 depending on where you look.</p>