Confusion over the warden class, questions for old time wardens

[Avanya]

<p>My warden is my second character to level 70 and she is a fae so she has not been around since the beginning of the game.  I originally started her as a fury.  I thought the fury was great fun.  I loved the nukes and the overall versatility of the class.  When I reached level 70 and started solo healing groups in harder dungeons, I just found the fury class lacking.  I always felt like I was scrambling to keep up on the heals and ran out of power quickly.  I betrayed to a warden because I talked to some trusted warden friends and heard good things.</p><p>I love healing as a warden.  I feel like I have so much more healing power.  I can solo heal Unrest as a warden and I'm pretty sure I couldn't have done that as a fury.</p><p>My question is, what's the deal with Sony and wardens/furies?  I frequent both boards and hardly ever see a single post on the fury board with people complaining.  Actually, all I see is furies thrilled with their class.  Now call me crazy...but any class that is THAT thrilled with itself has to be overpowered lol  Seriously, all I read on that board is how awesome furies are at healing and how great it is that they can heal so well and do so much damage on top of that.  I never felt that way when I was a fury.</p><p>I also see from the warden boards that there are issues with the class that need looking into but it seems like Sony just ignores it.  I read about how furies are more wanted at raids in general and if you happen to be in a guild that is strict about raiding classes MAYBE one warden is wanted.  It's like Sony mistakenly thinks that wardens are the over powered ones and don't want to change anything but furies are just peachy keen fine.  Personally, I feel furies are the slightly over powered ones but any small changes made seem to favor furies.</p><p>What I am asking basically is what went on earlier in the game with the 2 classes?  I've heard furies sucked at healing so they gave them some additional heals but that's about it.  I'm really confused over this issue since I think wardens are awesome yet all I hear (even from a fury guildie) is that furies heal just as well AND do more dmg.  *head hurts at this point*</p><p>Sometimes I think about betraying back...not because I want to be a fury but because I'd like to think that I, as a warden and a good healer, am wanted for my abilities and not discarded if they already have the token warden in the raid.  Obviously, as people have stated on this board before, we need some skill that makes us wanted/needed in raids as wardens.</p><p>Ugh I'm rambling.  Would love to hear some feedback on this issue since i can't seem to wrap my mind around the whole thing and understand Sony's position on all this.  Thanks</p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<p>In a nutshell, and IMO (I am sure other 'since launch' Wardens will chime in too so that it completes the story).</p><p>When this game started, it seems like Druids were kind of the healer [Removed for Content] stepchildren...mostly because (and from what I've heard, I didn't play it) in EQ1 Cleric was 'the' healer to be.  Whatever design or ultimate changes had happened in that game caused healing to be a one-trick pony, and that was Cleric.</p><p>Warden and Fury had some issues early on back when you didn't become either till level 20.   These were ironed out slowly but surely - it was a new game after all.  When the levels capped at 50, it seemed that although all classes always have issues, Wardens were ok.  I remember being desired for buffs and heals for T5 raids..to the point where you couldn't even do some of them if you didn't have a Warden - much like Defiler now.</p><p>Fury, on the other hand was pretty broken.   They were NOT happy cats during that time.   They couldn't really heal much, their buffs were kind of lackluster and although their nukes were good, most people who wanted to be healers and decent utility stopped playing that class. You couldn't find a Fury for awhile, but no one really missed them...and it was a shame.    Shamans I knew (mystics mostly..Defilers have been a bit stronger)  stopped playing altogether as well.   Templars were happy campers.  They were uber...and it looked like Cleric was once again 'the' healer to have..with Warden a close second.</p><p>Then the Combat Revamp happened (LU30?  What was that..? Ive blocked the trauma out <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> .  We raided the night before, all happy - then logged in the next day to find that a Monk could keep a group standing better than we could.  A Shadowknight with his lifetap healed himself better than we ever could.  We cursed and railed and complained...and it seemed like it fell on deaf ears.   This community here (on the boards) parsed and offered feedbacks, spreadsheets, bribes...every possible bit of information that those knowledgeable in gaming mechanics could offer.  Still nothing.   We were all pretty disgusted, but kept at it.    All this was with either no communication from the spell dev, or, when he did...very arrogant and dismissive.   Many of us stopped playing this class then - I know I leveled my Templar mostly then, because it was the only character I had at sufficient level that could still heal well.</p><p>Furies, on the other hand, got a MUCH needed fix.   They were suddenly the class that had been promised to them - and those that had stuck with playing them were delighted, and rightly so.   When folks saw how much better Fury was, they became the FoTM for healers.  Many of us couldn't even get a group unless it was friends, and then as backup healer.  None of us signed up for backup healer, and indeed, had not played that role previously.   </p><p>Little by little, Wardens got their ability to be a decent solo healer back.  MONTHS after the CR, we were just starting to be viable....at least the way many of us wanted to be.   If you go back and read posts from that time (and if your head hurts now, I'd not recommend it), you'll find posts from people who said they could 'easily' heal with their Warden, and that things were fine, just fine...but the majority still hammered the Devs for more tweaking.</p><p>We did get most of our former glory back - in different forms.    When we say there are still issues that we'd like resolved, I think some of it is wish list stuff, and some of it is actual things that are needed to bring the class even further back into balance than it is now.   SoE basically took a good class and broke it - attempting to balance it within the game and with other classes.      </p><p>Then PvP servers opened, and the natural healer class to roll was Fury.   Good damage, decent heals (at least for short, fast pvp fights), good survivability.   Those of us who had been Wardens for a long time and decided to roll them on a PvP server were met with 'oh, poor you..' for having rolled it.  Time showed that Warden survivability and ability to heal was perfect for PvP - then when they adjusted diminishing returns for mitigation and etc....Warden was 'THE' class to be....so everyone rolled one of those then as FoTM.</p><p>As for now - as far as Raids and things are concerned - whether a raid guild prefers Fury or Warden healers seems to be a guild preference, but not across the board fact.  I can't say I've ever been in a guild that prefered Fury healers, but then, as a Warden...why would I join one that did?  So hard to say there.  Both classes bring good things to raids - but we could bring even better things if we'd get a few more concessions from the Devs to bring us more in line with where many of us  feel we should be.</p><p>Hope this helps a little bit.  I'm hoping any holes are facts are plugged in by others so that you can get a good picture.   Personally, I get really annoyed at a lack of communication.  We offer ideas, feedback, etc.   Get nothing in return, then are thrown some seemingly uber thing that really isn't uber at all...with the appearance of shutting us up.     </p><p>I would say stay Warden, because overall it's been a good class to play - the lore is good, we have decent utility, and most of all the community is awesome.   Beyond that, if you have other healing needs, research what is the best thing to be.  IMO, don't do it because someone who doesn't play either class says you should.</p>

[Skivley101]

<p>Ive played a warden since a few months after launch (remade my first char 3 times from 20 because there wasn't respecs) But this is the only char ive taken to 70 and raided with . So im not sure what that makes me on the subject.</p><p>2 basic facts about the warden is that no other healer has the amount of healing pwr for mana cost that we can do & we have the best roots in the game.</p><p>The root of course is very limited in its use during raids & the healing becomes not needed when the raid force is practiced and the Shammy,Clerics are pretty good at their jobs.</p><p>The thing that has happend to the warden over the evolution of the game imo ... Is that as the game mechanics have changed and other classes get boosted becuz undesireable effects happen to them. The warden has recieved the least amount of change becuz they have a pretty basic function compared to other classes (but i think were the most versatile) And your place in the raid force still boils down to how well you play with everyone else.</p><p>I guess the warden might be near the bottom of the list for people who play many different chars in a raid situation and want a specific funtion out of their investment of time. But for having the most fun (which is what i play for) imo the warden can facilitate that over a wider range in the game than most chars. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[GinFan]

<p>I love playing a Warden.  I started mine when Froglok's were released.  </p><p>We are great for single healing a group.  </p><p>We are a pita for 2 boxing... too much attention needed to heal well... not much to set and forget.</p><p>PvP I could care less... all it does is provide a type of game play that personally I don't want to take part in and screws up PvE class abilities in the name of fairness.  </p><p>Raiding.... if one had to limit a raid force to just 5 types of healers, I think most would cut out Warden first.  That's on paper of course and a good Warden is still desirable.  I'm encouraged to play my Warden instead of my Troub in my guild, because I'm a reasonably decent healer, and they know it makes me happier to do so <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.   </p><p>Though my play style might be considered "Fury like" (I've decided I don't like being melee specced because it distracts me from healing well), I've built an identity I like as a Warden.  I prefer being a Warden, plus the pesimist in me is sure that since I'm fully mastered, as soon as I betray and go through the trouble and expense of becoming a fully mastered Fury, the Devs will tip the balance back in our favor, leaving me to cry in my beer.</p>

[Skivley101]

<p>Ha!!!</p><p>no self respecting warden would become a fury ... but it is understandable for a fury to become a warden</p>

[MullenSkywatcher]

<cite>Arielle Nightshade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>In a nutshell, and IMO (I am sure other 'since launch' Wardens will chime in too so that it completes the story).</p><p>When this game started, it seems like Druids were kind of the healer [I cannot control my vocabulary] stepchildren...mostly because (and from what I've heard, I didn't play it) in EQ1 Cleric was 'the' healer to be.  Whatever design or ultimate changes had happened in that game caused healing to be a one-trick pony, and that was Cleric.</p><p>Warden and Fury had some issues early on back when you didn't become either till level 20.   These were ironed out slowly but surely - it was a new game after all.  When the levels capped at 50, it seemed that although all classes always have issues, Wardens were ok.  I remember being desired for buffs and heals for T5 raids..to the point where you couldn't even do some of them if you didn't have a Warden - much like Defiler now.</p><p>Fury, on the other hand was pretty broken.   They were NOT happy cats during that time.   They couldn't really heal much, their buffs were kind of lackluster and although their nukes were good, most people who wanted to be healers and decent utility stopped playing that class. You couldn't find a Fury for awhile, but no one really missed them...and it was a shame.    Shamans I knew (mystics mostly..Defilers have been a bit stronger)  stopped playing altogether as well.   Templars were happy campers.  They were uber...and it looked like Cleric was once again 'the' healer to have..with Warden a close second.</p><p>Then the Combat Revamp happened (LU30?  What was that..? Ive blocked the trauma out <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> .  We raided the night before, all happy - then logged in the next day to find that a Monk could keep a group standing better than we could.  A Shadowknight with his lifetap healed himself better than we ever could.  We cursed and railed and complained...and it seemed like it fell on deaf ears.   This community here (on the boards) parsed and offered feedbacks, spreadsheets, bribes...every possible bit of information that those knowledgeable in gaming mechanics could offer.  Still nothing.   We were all pretty disgusted, but kept at it.    All this was with either no communication from the spell dev, or, when he did...very arrogant and dismissive.   Many of us stopped playing this class then - I know I leveled my Templar mostly then, because it was the only character I had at sufficient level that could still heal well.</p><p>Furies, on the other hand, got a MUCH needed fix.   They were suddenly the class that had been promised to them - and those that had stuck with playing them were delighted, and rightly so.   When folks saw how much better Fury was, they became the FoTM for healers.  Many of us couldn't even get a group unless it was friends, and then as backup healer.  None of us signed up for backup healer, and indeed, had not played that role previously.   </p><p>Little by little, Wardens got their ability to be a decent solo healer back.  MONTHS after the CR, we were just starting to be viable....at least the way many of us wanted to be.   If you go back and read posts from that time (and if your head hurts now, I'd not recommend it), you'll find posts from people who said they could 'easily' heal with their Warden, and that things were fine, just fine...but the majority still hammered the Devs for more tweaking.</p><p>We did get most of our former glory back - in different forms.    When we say there are still issues that we'd like resolved, I think some of it is wish list stuff, and some of it is actual things that are needed to bring the class even further back into balance than it is now.   SoE basically took a good class and broke it - attempting to balance it within the game and with other classes.      </p><p>Then PvP servers opened, and the natural healer class to roll was Fury.   Good damage, decent heals (at least for short, fast pvp fights), good survivability.   Those of us who had been Wardens for a long time and decided to roll them on a PvP server were met with 'oh, poor you..' for having rolled it.  Time showed that Warden survivability and ability to heal was perfect for PvP - then when they adjusted diminishing returns for mitigation and etc....Warden was 'THE' class to be....so everyone rolled one of those then as FoTM.</p><p>As for now - as far as Raids and things are concerned - whether a raid guild prefers Fury or Warden healers seems to be a guild preference, but not across the board fact.  I can't say I've ever been in a guild that prefered Fury healers, but then, as a Warden...why would I join one that did?  So hard to say there.  Both classes bring good things to raids - but we could bring even better things if we'd get a few more concessions from the Devs to bring us more in line with where many of us  feel we should be.</p><p>Hope this helps a little bit.  I'm hoping any holes are facts are plugged in by others so that you can get a good picture.   Personally, I get really annoyed at a lack of communication.  We offer ideas, feedback, etc.   Get nothing in return, then are thrown some seemingly uber thing that really isn't uber at all...with the appearance of shutting us up.     </p><p>I would say stay Warden, because overall it's been a good class to play - the lore is good, we have decent utility, and most of all the community is awesome.   Beyond that, if you have other healing needs, research what is the best thing to be.  IMO, don't do it because someone who doesn't play either class says you should.</p></blockquote>This is the best warden post ever.  To summarize, Solo, Grouping, PVP Warden great.  Raiding Warden, bleech (and hoping things change in RoK)

[Avanya]

<cite>Skivley101 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ha!!!</p><p>no self respecting warden would become a fury ... but it is understandable for a fury to become a warden</p></blockquote>LOL don't worry <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I said sometimes I "think" about betraying back.  I wouldn't do it, I love being a warden too much <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[RoXx]

My guess is that one of the top devs is playing a Fury. Each time their community is asking for something, they get it.I betrayed to Fury after they were boosted the class so much that my guild actually asked every warden if they could betray.It lasted 2 months and then I betrayed back to Warden. I have been playing Warden as my main since release and obviously I couldnt keep playing without my dear Warden.In my experience:Warden healing is far superior if you can use the tools given to you. This includes: -Protecting Grove (place it out of sight for others)-Tranquility (I use it when tank got 2-3 debuffs/dots or more)-Exaltion of The Untamed (use before pulling elemental mobs, and refresh each time its up-Tunare's Watch + Nature's Regrowth (use 1 when tank got less than 1/3 hp - saved many raids with this, especially usefull with double use aa [tank can die 4 times if you combine these two, use Tunare's watch when anyone is about to die in your grp]) ...-Hierophantic Advent (use this one right after all HOTs have been cast, toggle off when HOT's are going down, very usefull for extreme heal situations)Very many wardens dont use these tools and actually think they are useless, but in fact these are the tools that make our healing superior to many of the other healing classes.I have duo-healed most t6 x4 raids and all CMM x2 raids by using these tools to their full potential.So what I have seen mostly through the last 3 years, is poor useage of the tools that we have. That said, in raid situaions you should realize that we are the "main emergency healer" as I like to call it.When everything is going fine, the defiler and templar takes care of healing. I usually cure and dps in these situations. But when things get tough I step in and usually end up top of heal parse if it was a very tough fight. ....errr....Im not on topic am I? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[GinFan]

Good post Roxxer. It is nice to get the perspective of someone who betrayed and then came back. You are right about the tools given of course. I use them all except your suggested use of Hierophantic Advent... great idea. I seldom use it, typically pulling it out only when the raid is stable and the tank is running out of power due to a power drain. Gonna play with it next raid. I think our raid healing has improved with the last patch, getting +healing up front instead of spreading us out is a big plus imo and though effects all healers, I think it was actually intended as an under the radar Druid perk more than anything else. Add in the upfront boost and the better healing on tranq we got in the last patch, it feels like the Devs are trying to improve us slowly but surely, playing to our strengths. By the way, another indirect perk to our raid desirability, is that the devs seem to be moving more and more towards giving mobs devastating dots, stuns, charms and debuffs, requiring a dedicated curer. Though it doesn't help our parse, I feel we excel in this area. If we are in the MT group it is our assignment to keep the MT clear. If we are out of the MT group, we can still be used to spam cures based on a timer while providing group healing and MT support in-between.

[Arielle Nightshade]

<cite>RoXxer wrote:</cite><blockquote>My guess is that one of the top devs is playing a Fury. Each time their community is asking for something, they get it.</blockquote><p>I'd have to disagree based on how bad they were before about LU 34 or so.  They were so awful, no one played one.  If anything, they are getting what they ask for in reparation for dev guilt.   </p><p>IMO, either no dev plays any druid class or the one(s) that do are in no position to get in Lockeye's face and say ...'dude...[Removed for Content]?'....</p>

[Isard]

<p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/user/profile.m?user_id=1215" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Saavedra</a> has a 70 Warden.  Don't tell him I told you.</p>

[frostbane]

<p>As someone else already said Arielle had about the best post i've seen to explain the class, but i'll add in some other helpful info as i see it.</p><p>Obviously at launch you were billed simply as a priest until lvl 10 and then a druid until level 20 where you finally diversified.  So seperating us from furies was a 30 level deal and that was it.  Regardless of that Wardens were the end all healers back before the Combat Update and Desert of Flames.  A mediocre warden could heal nearly as well as some of the best played in other classes.  In raids (t5) wardens were wanted, and needed.  Raids THRIVED on having wardens because we were so freaking awesome!</p><p> Then the combat update happened.  Compared to what we had before our healing potential was diminished (by a fair amount), on top of that other classes (*cough* clerics *cough*) had an upgrade to their healing as well as DPS upgrades.  In addition solo'ing before DoF was a simple matter, hit yourself with a regen, pull the mob, turn on auto-attack, HoT, nuke until dead.  Now it's after the revamp we have 2 shiny new roots that many of us are skeptical about, and we have to learn to play our class all over again due to diminished healing power and because roots were now the effective way for us to solo.</p><p>After some setbacks and retooling of the "accepted" way to play your character for max effictiveness wardens were again a decent class to play (not near as powerful as before but still good).  With the release of KoS and AA's is where wardens really sorta fell behind (as in falling to far behind to catch up with some tweaks and a slight change in playstyle).  Our AA's really didn't do anything for us, where as many other classes took giant strides with their AA's, and EoF only furthered the gap.  Overtime wardens have had many changes some large and others small, some were needed others not, and some were needed but took us to far back.  Now after all the changes and tweaks to us, and the empowering of some other classes that had fallen behind combined with a lack of really outstanding AA's wardens have fallen back in the race a bit.  We are still a HUGELY succesful solo class (IMO in the top 5 solo classes in game, if not top 3).  It's just out turn to get a bit of a boost and bring us back towards where we used to be.</p><p> As for PvP wardens are a great class to play in both solo and group play, and have been so since PvP launched!</p><p>In the end most classes have had their moment to shine, look at summoners (conj/necro) at launch they were fair DPS, more of a jack of all trades solo and small group class then a pure DPS class, now they are some phenominal DPS.  Rangers for all their problems had thier hayday right after DoF with procs and everything.  Guardians were at one point the tank class to be for maximum tankage, then after DoF they were about the worst until they got some love and now tank classes are balanced better.  Swashy's and Brigs used to be looked at for debuffs and fair DPS, now they are awesome Debuffs and great DPS.</p><p>Point in case most classes have had ups and downs, ours is in a bit longer of a low then most others, i just hope our time was not pre-DoF that we will get some tweaks and not be stuck as we are!</p>

[Avanya]

<p>Thanks for all the great feedback.  It really helps me to understand all that went on.  I wish I could be more specific, but as much as I love my warden, I have this general feeling that we're unfinished somehow.  That we're missing something.  I'm happy that furies got improved way back when they needed it, but I get the feeling at this point that they are more balanced than we are.  That they are "finished" somehow more than wardens.  I just can't seem to put my finger on where we need help.  I know for sure that the warden AA tree sucks to put it mildly.  I also know about the proposed change to our primitive instinct being changed to a group buff.</p><p>One thing I wonder/worry about is our tree.  Whether or not they will upgrade that somehow with the expansion or if it will fall to the wayside.  Same with our swarm wolf pets.  I'm sure furies won't be losing back into the fray or hibernate so not sure why we should lose any of our heals in whatever form they come.  Bleh, I worry too much <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Maybe some of you can be more specific than I can of what we might need now.  Also very tired so not thinking clearly enough to explain it atm hehe <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (time for a nap)  Thanks again!  You guys are great.  This is a nice warden community on this board. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Goaldan]

<cite>Arani@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I wish I could be more specific, but as much as I love my warden, I have this general feeling that we're unfinished somehow.  That we're missing something.  I'm happy that furies got improved way back when they needed it, but I get the feeling at this point that they are more balanced than we are.  That they are "finished" somehow more than wardens.  I just can't seem to put my finger on where we need help.</p></blockquote>I have to echo this as well.  Love my warden, but it always feels like he's not doing as much as he should be.Maybe it's the fact our supposed 'defensive' role isn't as obvious or well defined as the furies 'offensive' role.  For example, the furies Int buffs and DPS spells contribute very much to DPS, so it's very obvious to a group that a fury is fulfilling the DPS role.  Our defensive abilities, on the other hand, are a lot more passive.  So to a group, and to ourselves in a way, it probably doesn't 'feel' like we're doing much more than another healer could in the same situation.  <shrug>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<cite>Goaldan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arani@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I wish I could be more specific, but as much as I love my warden, I have this general feeling that we're unfinished somehow.  That we're missing something.  I'm happy that furies got improved way back when they needed it, but I get the feeling at this point that they are more balanced than we are.  That they are "finished" somehow more than wardens.  I just can't seem to put my finger on where we need help.</p></blockquote>I have to echo this as well.  Love my warden, but it always feels like he's not doing as much as he should be.Maybe it's the fact our supposed 'defensive' role isn't as obvious or well defined as the furies 'offensive' role.  For example, the furies Int buffs and DPS spells contribute very much to DPS, so it's very obvious to a group that a fury is fulfilling the DPS role.  Our defensive abilities, on the other hand, are a lot more passive.  So to a group, and to ourselves in a way, it probably doesn't 'feel' like we're doing much more than another healer could in the same situation.  <shrug></blockquote>^^^  This is perfect...well said.  I think you have put your finger on it for an overall 'flavor' issue.  (although one could argue that healing the way we do is the ultimate in defense.....hmm...)

[Jayad]

<p>What's lacking at the raid level is some good buffs, plain and simple. AGI is a joke and it's one of our main buffs. PI is the only nice buff, along with the Bat line (which is usually just a self buff)I'd love to see some decent defensive buffs, maybe one or two, that we can cast raid-wide. Many raids don't run with wardens in MT so it's important that it not purely be a group buff.With all the effects/cures on raids now, a good niche for the warden would be something along those lines. They kind of went in that direction with the cure lines, but increasing resists is pointless, unless you're extremely low to begin with. Okay, NOBODY is low on a fight which requires a resist. Most decent gear already brings you up on every resist. It's a poor design. Furies have some good offensive buffs, but wardens don't have the equivalent defensive buffs. Our best buff is an *offensive* buff, that's how sad it is.The warden has their spot as an efficient regen healer on very hard fights or bad AOE fights, but nobody wants a warden for anything else right now. They need to give us a defensive-oriented group buff that is desirable (to put us in MT) and a raid-wide raid or single target buff that makes us desirable to be on a raid.I played a warden in the original game to 50 and in DOF, and the class was annihilated in the combat update. Imagine the regens you have now, plus awesome direct heals and good dps. And you had a few decent buffs, too! Unfortunately the only time you want a warden now at the raid level is for their regen capabilities or a random healer spot. It's just the truth. It's not because wardens are bad healers - they're not - it's because all healers can heal, but buffs are the key.  Spores and the damage shield are not important enough to move anybody around on a raid.  They're more like small "nice to haves".  You'd want the buffs so that the raid leader thinks, "okay, this is a tough fight/zone.  we need max defensive so we'll put the warden in the MT for their defensive buffs".  I'll say this - nobody beats a warden in group healing, and they are great soloers.I don't play my warden as a main anymore but I have fond memories <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[kcirrot]

<cite>Arani@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I love healing as a warden.  I feel like I have so much more healing power.  I can solo heal Unrest as a warden and I'm pretty sure I couldn't have done that as a fury.</p><p>My question is, what's the deal with Sony and wardens/furies?  I frequent both boards and hardly ever see a single post on the fury board with people complaining.  Actually, all I see is furies thrilled with their class.  Now call me crazy...but any class that is THAT thrilled with itself has to be overpowered lol  Seriously, all I read on that board is how awesome furies are at healing and how great it is that they can heal so well and do so much damage on top of that.  I never felt that way when I was a fury.</p></blockquote>From launch I planned to go Fury.  After a short time through the priest and druid classes I was there.  SOE promised us that all healers would be able to heal for a group.  That was not true at launch.  Shaman and Furies were literally broken.  We had upgrades to our heals that were inferior to the heal that came before it.  It was a bad time.I was proud that I stuck with the class I wanted to play.  Then in LU13, they fixed our class.  Suddenly we were respectable healers and still did good DPS.  At that point we still weren't as good of a healer as a Warden or a Templar, but we could do OK.To be honest, nearly every time they've touched Furies since has made Furies better.  When the other healers whined that Furies had too much DPS and could still heal, the devs just gave the other healers more DPS but left our healing alone.  Then realizing that Furies didn't have the defensive potential that the other healers had, they gave us our roots.They improved Warden and Fury regens to make them as powerful per tick as cleric reactives.  They gave Furies Achievements that improve the class immensely.  They did a balance pass on all the direct heals.  After that, Furies were clearly very good healers and had nothing to feel bad about on that score.Today we find ourselves VASTLY better than we were at launch.  As you mention, people just don't complain about Furies because the class is fantastic.  It's perfect.  Not overpowered, just good at everything it does.  Furies aren't really the best at anything but we are literally good at a WHOLE lot of things.  Furies are the most perfect awesome example of a "Jack of all Trades."I'm not sure why you ever left the class to be honest.  I've solo healed Unrest.  It's harder than it would be with another healer that's true, but a Fury with upgraded heals and skills can do fine with any heroic instance.  I really wish Wardens the best, but I would never trade my Fury in for one.

[MullenSkywatcher]

<cite>Jayad wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What's lacking at the raid level is some good buffs, plain and simple. AGI is a joke and it's one of our main buffs. PI is the only nice buff, along with the Bat line (which is usually just a self buff)I'd love to see some decent defensive buffs, maybe one or two, that we can cast raid-wide. Many raids don't run with wardens in MT so it's important that it not purely be a group buff.With all the effects/cures on raids now, a good niche for the warden would be something along those lines. They kind of went in that direction with the cure lines, but increasing resists is pointless, unless you're extremely low to begin with. Okay, NOBODY is low on a fight which requires a resist. Most decent gear already brings you up on every resist. It's a poor design. Furies have some good offensive buffs, but wardens don't have the equivalent defensive buffs. Our best buff is an *offensive* buff, that's how sad it is.The warden has their spot as an efficient regen healer on very hard fights or bad AOE fights, but nobody wants a warden for anything else right now. They need to give us a defensive-oriented group buff that is desirable (to put us in MT) and a raid-wide raid or single target buff that makes us desirable to be on a raid.I played a warden in the original game to 50 and in DOF, and the class was annihilated in the combat update. Imagine the regens you have now, plus awesome direct heals and good dps. And you had a few decent buffs, too! Unfortunately the only time you want a warden now at the raid level is for their regen capabilities or a random healer spot. It's just the truth. It's not because wardens are bad healers - they're not - it's because all healers can heal, but buffs are the key.  Spores and the damage shield are not important enough to move anybody around on a raid.  They're more like small "nice to haves".  You'd want the buffs so that the raid leader thinks, "okay, this is a tough fight/zone.  we need max defensive so we'll put the warden in the MT for their defensive buffs".  I'll say this - nobody beats a warden in group healing, and they are great soloers.I don't play my warden as a main anymore but I have fond memories <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>I agree with you 100% about raid buffs.  There is serious confusion with the role and theme of the warden (are we offensive dps healers because we are leather, or are we defensive healers because furies are the "offensive healers".  Are we supposed to be the melee druids without any str buffs or class gear to boost it, or are we supposed to nuke from ranged to do damage?I've often noticed when talking about the raid deficiencies of warden, how often people state that we are awesome in groups or solo.  While I agree that we are fine group or solo, I wonder why we have to keep apologizing for our class.  TBH, there aren't that many bad solo classes, and there definitely is no bad grouping class.  So that leaves raiding and PvP.  Wardens are still very strong in PvP, and other classes are fine in PvP and raiding, so why can't we be boosted to be equivalent.Furies are a better class because they are currently better thought out.  Each improvement to a fury is consistent with their template (healing and nuking DPS).  The int buff and AA lines compliment the fury and make them stronger.  Our buffs are so scattered all over the place that they dont come together to form something that makes a difference in raids.  Its a hodge-podge of offensive and defensive buffs, none of which are powerful enough or have synergy with each other.  A total revamp seems unlikely, as that would unbalance PvP and create a domino effect.The hope for me is that RoK either upgrades the buffs enough to warrant us coming back to the Main Tank group, or introduces a new spell line that changes our role.  Give some awesome AoE immunity ability so we can stay in on Epic mobs and melee.  Give us some resist ability that absorbs elemental damage (elemental stoneskin).  With the new change to troubadour raid wide resist songs, our current abilities to boost resists are even needed less (although my troubadour was thrilled).We need someone planning out the warden class beyond RoK and give us a consistent idea of what the class is supposed to do.  Otherwise we are extremely limited in our raid desirability.P.S. Not to be even more of a downer, but I've seen many wardens post about how high their heal parse is on raid mobs and how great a healer they are.  That may be true, but to give one example, a defiler can keep up a 24% reduction in attack speed on a mob pretty much the entire fight.  That wont show up on the heal parse, but as a reduction in the mob's DPS column in ACT.  Frankly, that's even better than being a good healer.  That's being a phenomenal healer.

[Arielle Nightshade]

<cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jayad wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What's lacking at the raid level is some good buffs, plain and simple. AGI is a joke and it's one of our main buffs. PI is the only nice buff, along with the Bat line (which is usually just a self buff)I'd love to see some decent defensive buffs, maybe one or two, that we can cast raid-wide. Many raids don't run with wardens in MT so it's important that it not purely be a group buff.With all the effects/cures on raids now, a good niche for the warden would be something along those lines. They kind of went in that direction with the cure lines, but increasing resists is pointless, unless you're extremely low to begin with. Okay, NOBODY is low on a fight which requires a resist. Most decent gear already brings you up on every resist. It's a poor design. Furies have some good offensive buffs, but wardens don't have the equivalent defensive buffs. Our best buff is an *offensive* buff, that's how sad it is.The warden has their spot as an efficient regen healer on very hard fights or bad AOE fights, but nobody wants a warden for anything else right now. They need to give us a defensive-oriented group buff that is desirable (to put us in MT) and a raid-wide raid or single target buff that makes us desirable to be on a raid.I played a warden in the original game to 50 and in DOF, and the class was annihilated in the combat update. Imagine the regens you have now, plus awesome direct heals and good dps. And you had a few decent buffs, too! Unfortunately the only time you want a warden now at the raid level is for their regen capabilities or a random healer spot. It's just the truth. It's not because wardens are bad healers - they're not - it's because all healers can heal, but buffs are the key.  Spores and the damage shield are not important enough to move anybody around on a raid.  They're more like small "nice to haves".  You'd want the buffs so that the raid leader thinks, "okay, this is a tough fight/zone.  we need max defensive so we'll put the warden in the MT for their defensive buffs".  I'll say this - nobody beats a warden in group healing, and they are great soloers.I don't play my warden as a main anymore but I have fond memories <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>I agree with you 100% about raid buffs.  There is serious confusion with the role and theme of the warden (are we offensive dps healers because we are leather, or are we defensive healers because furies are the "offensive healers".  Are we supposed to be the melee druids without any str buffs or class gear to boost it, or are we supposed to nuke from ranged to do damage?I've often noticed when talking about the raid deficiencies of warden, how often people state that we are awesome in groups or solo.  While I agree that we are fine group or solo, I wonder why we have to keep apologizing for our class.  TBH, there aren't that many bad solo classes, and there definitely is no bad grouping class.  So that leaves raiding and PvP.  Wardens are still very strong in PvP, and other classes are fine in PvP and raiding, so why can't we be boosted to be equivalent.Furies are a better class because they are currently better thought out.  Each improvement to a fury is consistent with their template (healing and nuking DPS).  The int buff and AA lines compliment the fury and make them stronger.  Our buffs are so scattered all over the place that they dont come together to form something that makes a difference in raids.  Its a hodge-podge of offensive and defensive buffs, none of which are powerful enough or have synergy with each other.  A total revamp seems unlikely, as that would unbalance PvP and create a domino effect.The hope for me is that RoK either upgrades the buffs enough to warrant us coming back to the Main Tank group, or introduces a new spell line that changes our role.  Give some awesome AoE immunity ability so we can stay in on Epic mobs and melee.  Give us some resist ability that absorbs elemental damage (elemental stoneskin).  With the new change to troubadour raid wide resist songs, our current abilities to boost resists are even needed less (although my troubadour was thrilled).We need someone planning out the warden class beyond RoK and give us a consistent idea of what the class is supposed to do.  Otherwise we are extremely limited in our raid desirability.<b>P.S. Not to be even more of a downer, but I've seen many wardens post about how high their heal parse is on raid mobs and how great a healer they are.  That may be true, but to give one example, a defiler can keep up a 24% reduction in attack speed on a mob pretty much the entire fight.  That wont show up on the heal parse, but as a reduction in the mob's DPS column in ACT.  Frankly, that's even better than being a good healer.  That's being a phenomenal healer. </b></blockquote><p>Agreed.  Not only that attack speed reduction, but the debuff of ALL stats....?  We have a teensy cold debuff that might/might not work.   Our elemental buff, which used to be one of the reasons that we were wanted/needed in every raid group just doesn't do much against today's mobs (....thinking CMM here - that slow DoT that they throw relentlessly, for example...lands and sticks no matter how buffed the group is against it.  It heals fine with an elemental cure, why doesn't a M1 Buff mostly avoid it..?) (Stuff like that.)</p><p>I also agree that a revamp is highly unlikely.    Our class, although fairly good, is like your mom's beautiful antique vase that you broke and then duct taped back together.  Sure, it's in one piece, but when she sees it..she's gonna be [Removed for Content].</p>

[Avanya]

<p>What I really wish is that whoever is in charge of the warden class would actually respond and post something in answer to our questions.  I'm a tradeskiller and I guess we are spoiled that we seem to have always gotten responses to our input, especially with the new TS person Domino, she's awesome.  Even if they just replied saying, "this is why we can't put this change in or that change in but we do listen to your feedback".  Anything to know that they are there and that they are aware of the situation, even if they can't "fix" it right now.  I find it very sad that most of the classes don't get any responses at all from the devs in charge of their class.</p><p>I know they must get sick of seeing people complain, I understand that, especially when "some unnamed classes" complain when there's nothing to complain about.  But there are some valid points brought up here on this board and on other boards too.  Why can't we get someone to talk to us about it?  At least to see what Sony's concept of a warden is or will be.  I think even a small response would make people feel a lot better.  Instead we sort of sit here waiting for stuff to happen to us that we can do nothing about.  I really hate that feeling.</p><p>Oh well <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[MullenSkywatcher]

<cite>Arielle Nightshade wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Agreed.  Not only that attack speed reduction, but the debuff of ALL stats....?  We have a teensy cold debuff that might/might not work.   Our elemental buff, which used to be one of the reasons that we were wanted/needed in every raid group just doesn't do much against today's mobs (....thinking CMM here - that slow DoT that they throw relentlessly, for example...lands and sticks no matter how buffed the group is against it.  It heals fine with an elemental cure, why doesn't a M1 Buff mostly avoid it..?) (Stuff like that.)<p>I also agree that a revamp is highly unlikely.    Our class, although fairly good, is like your mom's beautiful antique vase that you broke and then duct taped back together.  Sure, it's in one piece, but when she sees it..she's gonna be [Removed for Content].</p></blockquote>Did we mention the defiler is doing this all while having the largest HP buffs?  lol.  And the Defiler AA lines are consistent and make their core abilities stronger? At least we run faster then they do (see I'm apologizing too!)

[Rebor]

<span style="font-size: xx-small;">warden seems fine so far in healing, no problems with them</span>

[Avanya]

<cite>Reborne wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: xx-small;">warden seems fine so far in healing, no problems with them</span></blockquote>What level are you?  And if you read the post at all, you'd see that we're not talking about wardens and healing, wardens are great healers.  We're talking about utility and being wanted/needed for other things besides our healing abilities.

[Arielle Nightshade]

<cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arielle Nightshade wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Agreed.  Not only that attack speed reduction, but the debuff of ALL stats....?  We have a teensy cold debuff that might/might not work.   Our elemental buff, which used to be one of the reasons that we were wanted/needed in every raid group just doesn't do much against today's mobs (....thinking CMM here - that slow DoT that they throw relentlessly, for example...lands and sticks no matter how buffed the group is against it.  It heals fine with an elemental cure, why doesn't a M1 Buff mostly avoid it..?) (Stuff like that.) <p>I also agree that a revamp is highly unlikely.    Our class, although fairly good, is like your mom's beautiful antique vase that you broke and then duct taped back together.  Sure, it's in one piece, but when she sees it..she's gonna be [Removed for Content].</p></blockquote>Did we mention the defiler is doing this all while having the largest HP buffs?  lol.  And the Defiler AA lines are consistent and make their core abilities stronger? At least we run faster then they do (see I'm apologizing too!)</blockquote><p>Defiler's cross to bear is The Dog...so they have at least one lackluster AA line and associated abilities.  </p><p>Since I have leveled and played my Defiler mostly in a PvP/raid environment...trust me when I say a dog that says "Dog, Arielle's Spirit Companion..you know..Arielle, the healer that you should kill first? She's right here!! Let me show you!! Follow me!!  ::big pointy arrow::" (his title really DOES say that, seriously)   and is two zones away when you need him because, bless his heart he runs so slow and has 800 HP at level 70....is not always useful when people are trying to kill you. </p><p>On the other hand, he is evil looking and is fun to take shopping and hang out with in town.   Err..just trying to be fair.  ::looks innocent:::</p>

[MullenSkywatcher]

<cite>Reborne wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: xx-small;">warden seems fine so far in healing, no problems with them</span></blockquote>This is part of the problem.  You don't realize how much more the other healers are doing while healing also.  The perception that wardens are not broken persists because they are only broken in raids.  Fix the raiding issues, and nobody would have anything left to complain about.

[Adrinanna]

I love my warden, she is by far my favorite character. I agree with the sentiments of others in the thread though. She definitely needs some more utility. It's sort of embarrassing the few times I have been in the MT group and I go to buff the MT.......sure we can throw on spores and spikes and a bit of power but compared to other healing class buffs we are definitely shafted. I am the only Warden that raids with my guild and most of the time during raids, it ends up being follow the bouncing Warden as they stick me in any group that needs some extra healing. The RL is perfectly aware of Warden buffs and capabilities, they are just pretty useless in the raiding capacity- basically the only role we have in a raid is healing and in a raid you need to bring more to the table.

[MullenSkywatcher]

<cite>Bolinda@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I love my warden, she is by far my favorite character. I agree with the sentiments of others in the thread though. She definitely needs some more utility. It's sort of embarrassing the few times I have been in the MT group and I go to buff the MT.......sure we can throw on spores and spikes and a bit of power but compared to other healing class buffs we are definitely shafted. I am the only Warden that raids with my guild and most of the time during raids, it ends up being follow the bouncing Warden as they stick me in any group that needs some extra healing. The RL is perfectly aware of Warden buffs and capabilities, they are just pretty useless in the raiding capacity- basically the only role we have in a raid is healing and in a raid you need to bring more to the table.</blockquote>The effect is much more pronounced in EoF (especially Emerald Halls) where our best healing abilities (group heals) are completely negated by the fact that Furious Storm has a long stun associated with it.  It's very frustrating!

[Dallun]

<cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bolinda@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I love my warden, she is by far my favorite character. I agree with the sentiments of others in the thread though. She definitely needs some more utility. It's sort of embarrassing the few times I have been in the MT group and I go to buff the MT.......sure we can throw on spores and spikes and a bit of power but compared to other healing class buffs we are definitely shafted. I am the only Warden that raids with my guild and most of the time during raids, it ends up being follow the bouncing Warden as they stick me in any group that needs some extra healing. The RL is perfectly aware of Warden buffs and capabilities, they are just pretty useless in the raiding capacity- basically the only role we have in a raid is healing and in a raid you need to bring more to the table.</blockquote>The effect is much more pronounced in EoF (especially Emerald Halls) where our best healing abilities (group heals) are completely negated by the fact that Furious Storm has a long stun associated with it.  It's very frustrating!</blockquote>Actually, I believe Furious Storm is a Stifle... same effect I'll admit but the semantics actually matter as it is easier it seems to avoid/clear a stun these days than a stifle.  Take, for example, Serenity.  In the above situation, serenity would not help you because it makes you immune to stuns and stuns only so you would still be stuck.One thing I would like to point out is that before the changes to epics with regards to stun, Wardens were still desired as an essential slot in the MT group because of Sandstorm.  (For those non-wardens who have never heard of Sandstorm its a long duration group buff that adds def and a reactive stun proc)  Two things happend to this buff that killed its usage in the PvE community.  First, it no longer effects Epics; and second is that the stun component went from being a 4 sec stun to a 2.5 second stun.  (I know I should say knockback but in this the effect is the same)  The first happened because of scouts and their multitude of stuns making epic encounters too easy.  And the second was because of a PVP balance.  The effect to the game is that people very rarely cast Sandstorm in encounters anymore because it roots you and most mobs have a long delay (relative to players) in between swings so are not generaly effected by the stun.  Unfortunately this is will never be changed as players DO swing like mad and Sandstorm IS useful in PVP.  Please do keep in mind that Sandstorm/Duststorm was originally intended as a raid buff as it has the root component and a long duration.  And it was also in the game at its conception; well before PVP was introduced into the game.  But through changes and balances it has been blasted into PvE oblivion.  And the sad thing is that the 'nerfs' weren't even targeted at Wardens.  We, as a community, have seen time and again changes go into effect that hit us unintentionally, for good or ill.  The first that comes to mind is our group root.  Before LU13 it was a snare that had a nice AGL debuff attached to it.  No one really cared at that time because AGL was truly the forgotten stat as it did nothing.  Then with the LU we got a nice, new shinny Group Root with an even MORE sizable AGL debuff... that immediately drops after a second or less in a raid because of how roots can get broken while taking damage.  Next came the changes to our Wolves.  When we first received them they were very powerful.  Not only did they do the bulk of our damage, just as they do now, they also had status effects that they used.  They had four, just as all the normal wolves in the game had.  A taunt, a snare, an attack skill debuff, and a short stun.  Our wolves had these abilities for a few months until the devs realized that having these benefits was unintended.  So around LU 16 or 17 the abilities were removed.  (Though it could have been later I don't remember the actual LU)  Then, because summoner dumbfires were doing too much damage the AoE immunity that the wolves shared with summoner dumbfires was also removed.  Unfortunately, this also effected our healing Tree which had a total HP of maybe 100.  (Keep in mind this also effected the Defiler warding pet as well so we weren't the only one ticked)  So as a concession they raised the HP of the Tree by 200%! ... to 300 HP... yay.  Almost forgot that they also changed the tree from being a drop-able buff so you could get the recast quicker... don't remember why they did this tbh, could have been for a good reason but the effect was that people used the tree even less than they already did.Then came the control changes to Epics... basically nothing control related will effect epics unless you are an enchanter.  Well, they forgot about our detaunt... for a good while too.  Basically we could root an epic for 25 seconds while we recovered from a near wipe.  Took them another 2 or 3 LU's to catch that one too.  Now we get to EoF.  There was SO MUCH hype in the warden community because we heard that we were getting mit boosters to our new Cure Line.  And we did, and it was "the way" to go for the standard warden build.  Then they killed it by dropping the one minute duration for the mit boost to one minute unless the target gets hit more than 3 times... Then I think 6 months later they decide to raise it to 4 hits.... /sarcasm the elation in the community ran rampant. /sarcasm offBut, lets not forget the time they tried to lower the crit rate on Shaman and Clerc melee rates.  The devs apparently weren't happy that they had the 100% so they wanted to drop them to 80% I think... well... that line of thought also lowered our crit rate by 20% as well so we went down from 75% to 55%... THAT caused an uproar and the devs actually backed down off that.  But it still is another example of how Wardens are catching many unintended changes.And lastly, and I'm not sure this is fixed... or can be fixed..., the last line in our buff line... the one that gives our anti-death an extra trigger had/has a minor problem... once that second trigger fired it overwrote the regen component of the first so while we did get an extra hit out of it we only got (usually) an extra second if that much because the initial heal on the druid anti-death is absolutely puny.  The point though that is the most annoying is that nothing will ever be changed back.  Not without it 'unintentionally' effecting the original targets of the change.  Sorry for ranting, I had no intention of letting it run like it did but I think it needed to be said.Dallun / Fione70 Warden / 70 IllusionistAntonia Bayle

[GinFan]

<cite>Dallun wrote:</cite><blockquote><b></b>...Sorry for ranting, I had no intention of letting it run like it did but I think it needed to be said.</blockquote>No apologies necessary.  That was one of the better rants I've read on these forums <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Fromingo]

<cite>Bolinda@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I love my warden, she is by far my favorite character. I agree with the sentiments of others in the thread though. She definitely needs some more utility. It's sort of embarrassing the few times I have been in the MT group and I go to buff the MT.......sure we can throw on spores and spikes and a bit of power but compared to other healing class buffs we are definitely shafted. I am the only Warden that raids with my guild and most of the time during raids, it ends up being follow the bouncing Warden as they stick me in any group that needs some extra healing. The RL is perfectly aware of Warden buffs and capabilities, they are just pretty useless in the raiding capacity- basically the only role we have in a raid is healing and in a raid you need to bring more to the table.</blockquote><p>100 % AGREE.  LOL it's funny our MT will go "I'm missing a buff, I'm short 1000 HP's"  and I'll go "well it's not me then cause I only give you a little over 300" and then the defiler will say "oops it's me , I forgot a buff"  and then I'll just quietly cry on the other side of my PC.  /sigh  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Come on SOE give us something to be more raid attarctive besides heals which all healers can do well.  </p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<cite>GinFan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dallun wrote:</cite><blockquote>...Sorry for ranting, I had no intention of letting it run like it did but I think it needed to be said.</blockquote>No apologies necessary.  That was one of the better rants I've read on these forums <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>/agree

[Qupe]

Something that has surprised me (and still continues to do so) is the lack of love for Spores.  Its 100% free, effective healing that seems like it procs more than 12% of the time and adds up to 6-9% of my night's healing in an Offtank group.  I see spores as one of our class defining abilities, when we get placed in groups without someone taking any type of consistent damage, we get "gimped" in a way.  I've read oodles  of posts about people "solving" the buff desirability by crying for PI to be raid wide, but I'd kill a biznitch to see spores go raid-wide first.  I yearn to see Spores on the MT.And I don't know, Wardens feel like the most direct, twitch skill reactive healer in the game.  Clerics and Shamans are built around preventing damage and healing based on damage while Druids (Warden more specifically since this is the warden forum and we can heal other classes under the table), are as "direct heal" as they get.  We fill the bars up and we fill them up fast, our raw healing power is phenomenal.  I think our buffs are fine, I don't see much MT group love with new hate changes etc... but we fit perfectly in Offtank groups and have heals better suited than Furies for mage/scout/etc.. groups.  The only reason a Fury goes in some of those groups instead of us are buffs and buffs alone in my opinion- and some marginal buffs at that. Say what you want, you can't fill a raid with cleric/shaman healing and who wants to be a fury anyway =)

[Jayad]

Sure spores show up nice on a parse, but they're *uncontrolled*. Nobody is going to put a warden in for spores. In fact, nobody puts healers in for healing because they can all heal. The reason you have a defiler and templar in the MT group is because of their buffs. I'm shocked you think this is a good buff in comparison to other buffs. What's even more sad is the other great buffs people have. How about Alacrity, or the DPS buffs inquisitors get? The templar proc % increasers are *huge* now. Those are all major factors in designing groups. Spores... phhht. Nobody would put wardens into a group for that, or any of their buffs. If a warden is in a group it's simple for their AOE heals or just general healing power.

[MullenSkywatcher]

<cite>Qupe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Something that has surprised me (and still continues to do so) is the lack of love for Spores.  Its 100% free, effective healing that seems like it procs more than 12% of the time and adds up to 6-9% of my night's healing in an Offtank group.  I see spores as one of our class defining abilities, when we get placed in groups without someone taking any type of consistent damage, we get "gimped" in a way.  I've read oodles  of posts about people "solving" the buff desirability by crying for PI to be raid wide, but I'd kill a biznitch to see spores go raid-wide first.  I yearn to see Spores on the MT.And I don't know, Wardens feel like the most direct, twitch skill reactive healer in the game.  Clerics and Shamans are built around preventing damage and healing based on damage while Druids (Warden more specifically since this is the warden forum and we can heal other classes under the table), are as "direct heal" as they get.  We fill the bars up and we fill them up fast, our raw healing power is phenomenal.  I think our buffs are fine, I don't see much MT group love with new hate changes etc... but we fit perfectly in Offtank groups and have heals better suited than Furies for mage/scout/etc.. groups.  The only reason a Fury goes in some of those groups instead of us are buffs and buffs alone in my opinion- and some marginal buffs at that. Say what you want, you can't fill a raid with cleric/shaman healing and who wants to be a fury anyway =)</blockquote>We don't heal other healers "under the table".  Damage prevented via debuff or ward is far superior to that healed via Heal over Time.  Its not even a debatable issue.  Spores is group member only, and is only effective when the recipient is under constant damage.  This would generally be the MT, but since we don't really have a good reason to be in the MT group anymore, its relegated to an offtank.Furies exist as the perfect healer for the mage group consisting of Fury, Troubadour, Illusionist, Mage x3.  They buff Int, have enough healing power to keep the group alive unless a member pulls agro (at which point no healer can keep them alive), and have spells that take advantage of the synergy of the group member spells and abilities (Time compression, etc.)The scenarios in which we used to excel (Deathtoll Eyeballs, Harughar the Deathless) aren't replicated in EoF, where all the AoEs that we would be able to recover from stifle you (thank the previous poster on the correction).  Our guild dropped 2 wardens from the raid, and the tank survivability is the same while the raidwide dps went up significantly, plus we have the standard bonuses related to using Inquisitors and Shaman (bolster, verdict, dps).Once you see a properly set up raid mage group with the classes listed above, or an offtank group with Berserker, Dirge, Inquisitor, Mystic, Scout x2, you'll wonder why anyone would choose a warden to replace them if they had any choice in the matter.  Guilds still raiding with wardens are doing so out of loyalty, or because they cant find a replacement.  The amazing healing powers of Wardens in group content does not translate well to the current raiding environment, where utility and dps are now prioritized above healing.I used to rant and rave and froth at the mouth at the state of Raiding Wardens, but instead I just retired and rolled a Troubadour, a class whose raid value isn't questioned.  The problems with wardens have not been addressed, and I don't have a lot of confidence in it being resolved anytime soon, because the problems are fundamental to the class design.Bottom line, its possible to clear all EoF content (Woushi, Throne of New Tunaria, Contested Avatars) with wardens in the raid, the same way its possible to shave without using shaving gel.  It just hurts a lot.

[Jayad]

Wardens will receive a little popularity with the new expansion coming out, as guilds need more heals in the groups. But once people gear up it'll be back to getting the buffs. buffs > heals Wardens have ZERO important buffs for a MT/OT or dps group. Everything you can mention is a bonus. Not to mention, the HOT effects on all the heals are really lame (besides the group and single target HOT). Actually, furies are in a similar boat but they have a few decent buffs. Furies are often not the best choice for caster groups anymore, but still a good choice. If wardens are the "defensive" druid, then they need some decent defensive buffs. It might end up that after people gear up in the expansion, the druid goes away from the MT group once more, but they should at least give a reason for a warden to be in there other than healing power. They need to completely axe the EOF AA cure lines and replace them, and then provide some worthwhile group or single target buffs. Some stuff that might be worthwhile: a) stoneskin type procs b) incoming damage reducers (say 20% chance of absorbing 50% of a melee hit, etc.) c) a real HP buff, single target or group, maybe only effective on fighter classes d) a decent taunt proc buff on fighters or a single target (so perhaps guilds would feel better about tossing the HT guy for a warden) e) improve mitigation effectiveness buff by some value straight up % (rather than +500 mit) - cutting incoming melee damage by 10 or 20% or such overall. Hey, defensive! AGI buffs are worthless and defense is often capped. sandstorm = lame. f) give wardens some nifty cure powers, especially the kind dealing with already stunned-stifled situations. wardens are super weak in this area despite having cure AA lines. tranquility could become a good speciality if things were set up right. There's kind of a need with many of these fights for some cure magic. Right now guilds deal with it but there's some possibilities. Sorry to go on a rant, but I was a warden main through much of T7 and I'm still rather annoyed at a lot of stuff. perhaps wardens can get some attention and become a decent class <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[xandez]

uncontrolled heals or not, spores and other proc heals, such as natural boon in the STR line just rocks... the uncontrollability is a prize to pay since they are mana free. And even in raids, i would not underestimate the amount of healing done by these 2 alone... combine it with healer orb and other possible heal proc items/spells and... and why should we heal other healers under the table? why would any healer be better than another? There are and will be some differences because of teh mechanics, player skill, gear and spell upgrade lvls (also AA:s). However, the differences are quite small in the end game guilds i would think. Atleast between same classes. And while wardens might not have much utility to bring to the table in raids... hell, i'd still say that even melee specced wardens will bring something to the DPS department.And besides... i really really love melee healer types because of their versatility. However... i really really dont understand WHY healers have to DPS or have utilities such as debuffs etc? IMO dps belongs to dps classes etc... of course it is so now also... but i still feel that the NEED for 1 class to brig something more to the table than the class is designed for is... not necessary.And if you feel bad as a warden... roll a ranger and live the life of it for a while <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />lol... im sure you'll start to see your warden in a totally different light... my original main was a ranger, just got tired of all the ups and downs (mostly) and made a warden. Well, made many others too, but this one i loved! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />*edit*my typing sucks as usual and im too lazy to check it before i press submit... bahand besides... i get to see those really cool " / and > maybe even "15" etc in my post again! ++Xan

[Adrinanna]

<span class="genmed"><b><span style="color: #3333ff;">xandez</span></b></span>, if you believe that healers should just heal because thats what they are designed for- why do we have so many healing classes?Each healing class has a special definition, things that make a Cleric not a Druid and vice versa.I would not argue in the least that Wardens can heal very effectively. Often I am one of the tops of the heal parse, right under the MT healers. We have the ability to get off quick heals and as long as its regular rather than spike damage, we can heal for a very very long time. My belief is that what has been posted earlier about defensive versus offensive druids rings the truest. Furies have the offensive part down, now we need something that will define Wardens as the defensive half of that pair.I love spores and my tree. My tree has saved people from the purple death several times, giving me just enough time to hit them with some heals. I think they are both under-rated. But neither bring much to the table in the long run. Perhaps if Spores was a raid-wide spell, that would add a lot to Warden utility. Even Sandstorm would increase in effectiveness if its range was expanded (I use this tons in groups but rarely if ever in raids).

[Qupe]

I didn't say spores was THE defining reason to put a warden anywhere, I'm saying its severely underrated.  I'd still say its a good buff in comparison to all my buffs, why isn't it good?And Jayad is right, the EoF cure line could fall off the face of the planet and I don't think anyone would notice/care- except tranquility that spell is silly.

[Fromingo]

<cite>Qupe wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>Something that has surprised me (and still continues to do so) is the lack of love for Spores.  </p><p>but we fit perfectly in Offtank groups and have heals better suited than Furies for mage/scout/etc.. groups.  The only reason a Fury goes in some of those groups instead of us are buffs and buffs alone in my opinion- and some marginal buffs at that. Say what you want, you can't fill a raid with cleric/shaman healing and who wants to be a fury anyway =)</p></blockquote><p>No one ever said spores sucked that I can recall. We like spores.  It's not a super ability but it's cool and works.</p><p>We do not have heals better suited to mage groups.  All our heals are cut in half and have regen tacked on.  low defensive/HP classes like mages simply cannot wait for regen heals.  They need big beefy direct heals and they need them fast.   Fury is best at that.   However as people are again reaching the Int cap, my guild is starting to look at maybe using a templar in mage groups for better buffs instead of a fury.  </p><p>IMO things that would be cool for a raiding warden are...</p><p>Tree that hits entire raid, is immune to AE's and levels with the Warden. </p><p>Our offensive skill buff being group wide. </p><p>Reactive cures AA line that I have mentioned in other threads.</p><p>A toggle buff that lets wardens cast through CC effects like stifles/mez/stuns but greatly increases cast times and power consumption maybe even reduces heals by a minor amount as well (no more than 30%). It's basically based on the idea that the Warden taps into his/her primitive/animalistic core and cast on pure instinct without having to speak. Inquis get their toggle that lets them greatly increase their group's DPS in excgange for slower cast times and more power so it's not like this isn't something that's possible or even overpowered.</p>

[MullenSkywatcher]

I'm still shocked and amazed to see how many wardens post here who just can't see past the healing aspect of the classes.  There is such a thing as a raid dynamic, where you balance the classes together in a particular order in order to maximize the potential of the raid as a whole.  It is for this reason that the ideal makeup of a raid is not Main Tank + 23 healers.  I think everyone gets that.So, understanding that there can be such a thing as too much healing, as a raid leader you limit your raid to the minimum number of healers needed to survive, which in most cases is 5-6, depending on gear and the mob you are fighting (2 in Main Tank, 2 in Off tank, and 1 in each of the other groups).  You dont raid without a templar and shaman in the main tank group, because you need the hit point buffs there.  You generally put a fury in the mage group so that they can buff INT (unless you are capped as suggested above).  So thats 3 of your potential 6 healer spots going to a non-warden.Your offtank, depending on how well he is geared will probably want/need hit point buffs as well.  Many of the boss fights in EH require split tanking, so your best bet is again, templar/inquisitor and a shaman.You can toss a warden in the last group, but there is no compelling reason to do so.  Any of the other 5 classes can fit in that role, since the healing is generally balanced between the classes, but other classes offer compelling utility or dps in addition to the heals they bring.  That is the current problem with wardens and raids, and needs to be fixed by changing the spells that wardens have.  We are a defensive themed healer with subpar defensive buffs, making us the worst raid healer out of the six available classes.  Significantly worse.Time and time again I see raid mob encounters where the utility of a certain healer becomes incredibly useful.  There are two mobs in MMIS that require you to get them from 10% to 0% in 10 seconds.  The inquistor's verdict takes off 2%, there is no equivalent warden ability.  When the Gardner in EH casts Furious Storm and stifles the raid, your group might survive IF you time the AoE and IF you took the Turtle Shell AA and IF you are wearing a buckler and IF your group is within 3 meters of you.  Inquisitors self break the stifle and then group cure arcane.  This is at the same time they are healing just as well as you and out DPSing you.  Those are just two examples of just one class, shaman have wards and if wardens were truly superior healers to templars, they you would see raids using us in the main tank group instead.  You don't see that however, which tells me that not only are the HP buffs of the templar superior, their healing must be at least equivalent, or the MT would die.I always get the feeling that the wardens who don't see anything wrong with the class either don't raid, don't pay attention to the abilities of the other healing classes, or have never fought in Emerald Halls.Oh, and to the poster that suggested that we should be satisfied with being the worst raid healer because we are not rangers...I can't even dignify that with a response.

[Qupe]

Maybe because warden(s) don't work for your raid set up does not mean every guild fighting Wuoshi has the same raid set up.  Different class composition and player ability mean guilds work running different classes in some different positions.  <cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>I always get the feeling that the wardens who don't see anything wrong with the class either don't raid, don't pay attention to the abilities of the other healing classes, or have never fought in Emerald Halls.</blockquote>.... please.

[Jayad]

OK I'm not saying spores is horrible - I like it - but it's hardly a good buff. If you're a raid leader, it's pretty typical to do something like: MT - Defiler (HP, alacrity, wards, debuffs, cures), Templar (HP, proc boost, speed buffs, reactives, cures) OT - Mystic (HP, more wards, bolster, debuffs, cures), Templar/Warden/Inquis magey DPS - Fury or templar scouty DPS - Inquis, Fury, templar, defiler (I'm not a healer anymore full-time so I could be wrong on some of them) Can you put a warden in any group for "heals"? Sure, but what else does a warden do? Healing is not a problem on all but a very small number of fights. You're gonna build your group for buffs and then heal types (wards, reactives, hots) and healing power is almost always the very last priority. Wardens have a lot of the 3rd level of healing power but that's also the one that matters the least. Not having a druid in the MT group is no problem, but try doing a raid without a shaman and their wards - it's a nightmare on tough mobs. I think SOE spread around the types of buffs you can do, but the problem is many of them became worthless due to game mechanics. Buffing HP is very, very important - wardens buff a tiny amount of HP and a lot of WIS, AGI, resists, and defense. All yuck. We debuff heat and cold resistance - yuck. Just stuff needs to be rethought.

[MullenSkywatcher]

<cite>Qupe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maybe because warden(s) don't work for your raid set up does not mean every guild fighting Wuoshi has the same raid set up.  Different class composition and player ability mean guilds work running different classes in some different positions.  <cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>I always get the feeling that the wardens who don't see anything wrong with the class either don't raid, don't pay attention to the abilities of the other healing classes, or have never fought in Emerald Halls.</blockquote>.... please.</blockquote>Player ability cuts across all classes and doesn't enter into a discussion about why wardens are inferior to other healing classes on raids.  Its not just my raid that is ditching wardens, look around a bit and you'll find wardens being replaced as guilds progress into EoF and realize that they get more out of any other healing class in terms of debuffs, utility, and dps, all while having the same healing level.We've had several wardens post long detailed posts about why the warden is a subpar raiding healer and suggestions on what might be done to improve the class.  The opposition posts seem to be condensed into:1.  We heal great!2.  Be glad you're not a ranger!3.  I raid with a warden so you must be wrong.I've yet to see an opposition post that does anything to convince me that people can take an unbiased look at all the abilities of all 6 healing classes and come to the conclusion that the warden ranks anywhere but last in terms of raid desirability.  I'm open to ideas and ready to listen to an opposing viewpoint, but I just don't see anything posted here that is on-topic (raids) or coherent.

[frostbane]

<p>I can honestly say that i AM one of the wardens that will argue our raid usefulness (at the moment) is nothing other then raw healing power.  In raids i'm usually the 3-4 healer on the parse and i bet a grand total of about 10% of my healing is done on the MT.  Most of mine comes in saving people who get mauled by a big AE, saving the necro when he lifeburns (wardens do this VERY well), or just topping people off as fights progress.  I think the fact that we can produce so much healing so quickly is a nice benefit to a raid.  But the problem lies in the fact that i RARELY have to go all out on anyone in a raid so the fact that i can heal faster/more whatever better then any other healer is a bit of a moot point.  Why use a warden in a raid simply for spot healing when another healer class can still keep the group alive, granted probably for more power to maintain the ward/reactive rather then just a HoT, but they can keep people alive at the same time as doing a host of other things.</p><p>If there was one spot left in a raid and you had to pick between a templar or a warden, you'd be crazy to bring a warden...why not bring the templar for the HP buff and combat stat increase, and they bring debuffs to a raid...all we could bring is a combat stat increase and mediocre DPS, oh and don't forget a WHOLE bunch of yummy useless Wisdom..Whoop dee doo</p><p>I've said it before, all we need to start becoming viable raid healer is one ability that makes people go "WOW".</p><p>It WAS the cure line, now it's nothing...a a fix to PI/sandstorm/Grove would help us get going somewhere other then the bench!</p>

[xandez]

<cite>Bolinda@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><span class="genmed"><b><span style="color: #3333ff;">xandez</span></b></span>, if you believe that healers should just heal because thats what they are designed for- why do we have so many healing classes?Each healing class has a special definition, things that make a Cleric not a Druid and vice versa.I would not argue in the least that Wardens can heal very effectively. Often I am one of the tops of the heal parse, right under the MT healers. We have the ability to get off quick heals and as long as its regular rather than spike damage, we can heal for a very very long time. My belief is that what has been posted earlier about defensive versus offensive druids rings the truest. Furies have the offensive part down, now we need something that will define Wardens as the defensive half of that pair.I love spores and my tree. My tree has saved people from the purple death several times, giving me just enough time to hit them with some heals. I think they are both under-rated. But neither bring much to the table in the long run. Perhaps if Spores was a raid-wide spell, that would add a lot to Warden utility. Even Sandstorm would increase in effectiveness if its range was expanded (I use this tons in groups but rarely if ever in raids). </blockquote>exactly, why do we have so many classes?but... i still like the system how it is... eh, sounds silly? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" />every healer does bring something different, but they are still capable of doing their job, yes?the thing i do not completely understand (or i am not willing to) is that why would eg. raid healers have to do something else good than healing? isnt that why we are there for???and yes, i still agree with you that we need something new... ok, the defensive part idea is actually very good!its not that we dont have the buffs compared to eg. Fury... just that we buff AGI and WIS? come'on.... who needs em anyway? Debuffs we pretty much dont have at all, not that i wanted any, mystics etc have those so its covered.spores raidwaide... hmm... imagine all the aggro problems? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /> heh... could actually be nice thou.*edit*these extra " /> characters i see in my (and some other ppl:s) posts after editing... are they visible to you guys/gals also? or is it my browser messing up? (firefox) *sigh*++Xan

[MullenSkywatcher]

Xandez, the danger of not addressing an imbalance between raiding classes is that over time people switch to other classes that can do the job better.  Wardens don't bring anything unique to raids other than healing.Class abilities are divided among damage, damage prevention/heals, and utility.  It seem like you would prefer a hard line between classes on these, but that doesn't exist.  Other healers already are better than wardens in two or three of these categories.  That is what we would like to see changed, but changed by improving our class rather than reducing the other classes.You say you like the system as it is now, would you honestly be upset with improvements to the class?

[Sorano]

<cite>xandez wrote:</cite><blockquote>the thing i do not completely understand (or i am not willing to) is that why would eg. raid healers have to do something else good than healing? isnt that why we are there for???</blockquote><p>Yes all healers can heal equally, but some heal more equally than others. It's due to simple game mechanics. Wards and reactives soak up the damage first, and HoT's are the last in heal order, as a HoT requires the target to be at less than 100% hps. If a mob does not do enough damage to overcome a ward, a warden will heal for 0. A shaman therefore has the ability to heal block other healers. That is the problem wardens face. As we bring no significant buffs to either the tank or dps, the only reason you take a warden on a raid is to heal. Unfortunately for the majority of raid encounters a defiler and templar is all you need for healing, which pretty much leaves us out in the cold. That is why wardens are asking for the devs to take a look at our buffs. We really need something defensive that will justify us taking a spot on a raid.</p>

[Geistman]

I absolutely see the need for Wardens to deliver something unique to a raidsetup and the well known issues of better defensive buffs and a raidwide PI. I always get kinda frustrated when getting asked who to switch out for the warden, cause most of the time you loose dps or utility when doing so. We are indeed a bit short on providing passive utility and our greater healpower/heal effectiveness isn't really matching with us beeing the last in the healing mechanic's row.Anyhow I think the Warden is still a great advantage for a raidforce:<ul><li>increasing stability with cross-group heals (stay back and look after the raid), quick heal cover when heavy spikes occur, or having the boring but so imported curing job to let other healers focus on the healing/debuffing</li><li>increasing dps if you manage to let your group eat an aoe, which they would be jousting</li></ul>The problem of the wardens imho is there perfomance meassurement. You just don't see really much on the parse, at least nothing obvious. The heals getting eaten most of the time, which decreases our overall healing i.e. the parse. Groups healed by just a druid just look like bouncing up and down all the time, cause of our post-damage type of healing, i.e. looks really unstable. Furies have the same problem, but at least they give constant utility and DPS.If you look into parses more closely, it's not the overall performance which counts when looking at a warden, like with all other classes. Tanks keep the agro during the whole fight, DPSers have constant DPS during the whole fight, Utility keeps the mob debuffed all the time, other healers (especially MT) keep their constant healpower on someone or DPS (with hitting their DPS on/healing off button). It is just frustrating, healing your [Removed for Content] of and then parse a merry 5-7%. But thats all bulshit, cause we Wardens, we just perform when it really counts. My normal raidwork is Curing, DPS, HO managment for MT group with the mage and Support for other healers when they tend to struggle with their group. But my main focus is on staying alert. When the [Removed for Content] hits the fan I think it's in general the Warden who unleashes a power which really always impresses me when I get a chance, especially with the now improved +Healing changes. But the attitude, which I so often encounter with fellow druids and sometimes my self as well, that you are just the useless Warden, doing nothing but hitting the 3-5 nukes every 10-20 seconds just keeps me from doing the job. Reaction goes down and so does my performance.Therefor I think for a progressing raidforce (i.e. working their way up to the top raid content, which is the largest part of raiding guilds i think) a warden is a must to just give you the extra time and stability to get the encounter to learn. For the top raiders and especially hardcore raiders I still see a point for a Warden on Encounters which you still have troubles with (Avatars and of course the new super enlarged halfling avatar (whats the top now? 89%?, didn't keep track) and wait, theres an expansion coming out which will give us Wardens the chance to prevent some wipes. Everything which does significant more damage then the damage preventers can deal with is the warden's job.So enough with the frustration pls. Wardens are definetly a good class, but we need to work our [Removed for Content] of to actually compete with the other healers. The only thing I really don't understand is, why is it so hard to get the desired changes in we need when the imbalance is so obvious. (Wardens are still the nice guys of the game imho, letting devs cover them in poo-poo, mourn a bit and then go on with their business. kinda reminds me of Ted bucklin in Scrubs)

[Avanya]

<cite>la wrote:</cite><blockquote>So enough with the frustration pls. Wardens are definetly a good class, but we need to work our [Removed for Content] of to actually compete with the other healers. The only thing I really don't understand is, why is it so hard to get the desired changes in we need when the imbalance is so obvious.</blockquote><p>Agreed.  I really don't think that we are asking for any huge unbalancing changes.  What I'm hearing here and feel myself is that we just need a little more utility.  I know for myself that I would be happy with any progress made in that area.  I am not looking for us to be better than other healers, just for us to be *needed* and *wanted* as much as other healers.  I have NO problem at all with our heals.  I love warden heals.</p><p>I am lucky enough that my guild does not discriminate.  We are all good friends and have been playing games together for years.  If you are a member of the guild then you get to participate in raids no matter what your class is.  So I don't have a problem with raids not wanting me BUT....*I* want to feel like I am contributing more to the raid.  I feel like other than being a really good healer that I am not adding all that much.  And while great heals are indeed important, there is more to a successful raid than that.</p><p>I would love if the devs or the warden class dev (not sure how that all works) would read this post and others like it and see that we are not trying to be whiners.  We are happy for the wonderful things that wardens DO have.  We just want a chance to have a class that is a little more balanced and I don't believe that huge changes are required in order to do that.  I think a few small changes here and there could make a big difference. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Jayad]

Heh. At the top end, wardens are actually *less* useful because you have the gear to not require the healing power of the warden. While you are gearing up on the hardest fights, you need more healing, but not once you are geared up! I know in my guild wardens are never in MT except for a few specific fights - and even then they're added in zone rather than for the whole raid. None of the fights really require a warden, it just makes it a little safer. Wardens are still on the raid a lot, but they are mainly filling "a healer" role rather than any specific purpose. If you were to purely fill slots as a best-fit and you had your choice of healers I'm pretty sure a warden wouldn't be on the raid at all, except to progress through an expansion at first. Pretty sure guilds would do: MT (Defiler, Templar), OT (Mystic, Templar), Melee Dps (Inquis/Defiler), and Caster (Fury or Templar). You could do every encounter in the game with that and have better buffs. Yes I do agree that nothing drastic is required. Mainly the buff situation needs to be addressed. If SOE wants the warden to be the defensive druid, then let there be a real reason to be defensive in the raid. If not that, then give some decent offensive buffs so there is a reason to be in the raid in OT or dps groups. Just my opinion. I don't play a warden as my main anymore but I'd like to see the class have a home.

[Avanya]

<cite>Jayad wrote:</cite><blockquote>Heh. At the top end, wardens are actually *less* useful because you have the gear to not require the healing power of the warden. While you are gearing up on the hardest fights, you need more healing, but not once you are geared up! I know in my guild wardens are never in MT except for a few specific fights - and even then they're added in zone rather than for the whole raid. None of the fights really require a warden, it just makes it a little safer.</blockquote>I haven't gotten to this point in my guild yet.  We're a small guild and we're still "gearing up" as you say in lower raid zones.  We've not done the highest end raiding dungeons.  Seeing what you all have to say, I'm not sure I'm looking forward to achieving that if I suddenly won't be needed at all lol.  Kinda sad really.

[Fromingo]

<cite>Geistman@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Anyhow I think the Warden is still a great advantage for a raidforce:<ul><li>increasing stability with cross-group heals (stay back and look after the raid), quick heal cover when heavy spikes occur, or having the boring but so imported curing job to let other healers focus on the healing/debuffing</li><li>increasing dps if you manage to let your group eat an aoe, which they would be jousting</li></ul></blockquote><p>The 2 main things you mentioned where wardens are an advantage are not things that can be solely filled by a warden. Any heal class can do these things and provide other benefits. To be something that makes wardens advantageous to have a warden in raid force means it has to be unique to wardens. </p><p>For example we had a recent shaman app. At first he was doing pretty bad on heal parses and I was shocked because game mechanics favor shamans on heal parses. I noticed he never cross group healed much. I mentioned it and he started healing other groups in raids. Now he does well on heal parses and can top the parse like any of our healers can. All our healers heal accross groups so that's not something that only wardens can do. </p><p>We all also cure lots and cure accross groups. We even have some healers focus on cures sometimes. It's never just the warden. </p><p>The increasing DPS comment had me confused. If you are saying you don't have to joust because a warden is in group then I don't know why you'd think that. If anything Warden would be one of the worst classes to risk a group taking an AE with. Shaman would be best as their group ward would let group take bigger AE's and they have better buffs, clerics would be better for the buffs, druids would not be good for that proposed strat. However that's rarely a strat I see anyone using. Jousting just makes a fight last a bit longer with a better chance of success, not jousting means more risk of wipe for a quicker fight. Most guilds choose better success chance over shaving a few minutes unless the content has become trivial for them. Besides many of the other healers can put out high DPS and increase their group's DPS by tons so losing them for the jousting-warden strat would be at BEST an even swap, but most likely a reduction because of increased wipes/deaths. There's really no advantage to that 2nd statement at all that I can see...</p>

[Geistman]

<cite>Fromingo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The 2 main things you mentioned where wardens are an advantage are not things that can be solely filled by a warden. Any heal class can do these things and provide other benefits.</blockquote>yep, agree<cite>Fromingo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>To be something that makes wardens advantageous to have a warden in raid force means it has to be unique to wardens.</blockquote>nope. Especially in the healing aspect. Every healer can heal. Same with curing and cross-group healing. Can be done by everyone (even the bards try to step up into the healer ranks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />It's not about having something unique, but to be better in something then all others. As the healer classes are very balanced imho and they mainly differ in the healing mechanics that can't be stated that way.So actually we should focus more on the strengths of the Warden class and I am absolutely sure, that this is the key to a Warden delivering value for the raid and which should be improved. And thats my overal point of the discussion. It's not worth to argue giving us better HP buffs to outplay a Defiler, cause it would take away their strength. Saying a Warden is a defensive healer isn't just not enough, nor right imho. I mean, jesus, I really don't feel like I am making no difference when I'm raiding. And my raidleader knows that and won't switch me out for anyone else. I mean do you all really think that Wardens don't have a single strength?Sidenote about the not jousting strat. Thats of course just counting for non tanking groups who can live through a hard hitting aoe (mainly dd) but are threatend by a consecutive hit. No other healer then Wardens get a whole group up to 100% that fast (thats one strength). I know this strat is very high risk, but having a whole group not to joust is just a huge benefit in DPS. Mandatory though that the first aoe doesnt kill everyone and that theres at least a 3-4 second gap inbetween the next one. I know this is a very uncommon way and my raidleader would kill me most of the time when suggesting it, but it is possible imho.

[MullenSkywatcher]

<cite>Geistman@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>So actually we should focus more on the strengths of the Warden class and I am absolutely sure, that this is the key to a Warden delivering value for the raid and which should be improved. And thats my overal point of the discussion. It's not worth to argue giving us better HP buffs to outplay a Defiler, cause it would take away their strength. Saying a Warden is a defensive healer isn't just not enough, nor right imho. I mean, jesus, I really don't feel like I am making no difference when I'm raiding. And my raidleader knows that and won't switch me out for anyone else. I mean do you all really think that Wardens don't have a single strength?</blockquote>People don't think the class is hurting because they've learned how to raid with it.  Now take the same skilled player and give them more tools to work with, and you have something that pushes your guild further up the progression ladder.  Thats what the plate and chain classes and furies are bringing.  If you switches classes, you'd learn that class and be just as good a healer as your warden, with more tricks in your back pocket to boot.  And you'd see why other healing classes don't complain as much about their EoF AA lines.

[Geistman]

Thats one thing i was wondering.... Do people who play different healer types or even fury/warden think that their warden is their least desirable one.And just to make that clear, I do think that the Warden needs an improvment. It occurs just to often to me when speaking or checking on other healer types, that if we would have something similar, i.e. something equal (Power management abilities just for one example), it would be such a performance boost. But, these wishes or demands need to be really well formulated and reasoned at a level that just no dev can say that this was intended and works like it should.But on the other hand we really need to emphasize as well, what we can provide and not just see what we can't do better then others.If we can prove, that in every situation, chossing another healer, even if this means having 2 of one type before giving a warden a spot, is a better choice and we keep nagging on that, I think we can change it. But there must not be any doupt if the the changes are necesarry or not.

[Skivley101]

<cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geistman@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>So actually we should focus more on the strengths of the Warden class and I am absolutely sure, that this is the key to a Warden delivering value for the raid and which should be improved. And thats my overal point of the discussion. It's not worth to argue giving us better HP buffs to outplay a Defiler, cause it would take away their strength. Saying a Warden is a defensive healer isn't just not enough, nor right imho. I mean, jesus, I really don't feel like I am making no difference when I'm raiding. And my raidleader knows that and won't switch me out for anyone else. I mean do you all really think that Wardens don't have a single strength?</blockquote>People don't think the class is hurting because they've learned how to raid with it.  Now take the same skilled player and give them more tools to work with, and you have something that pushes your guild further up the progression ladder.  Thats what the plate and chain classes and furies are bringing.  If you switches classes, you'd learn that class and be just as good a healer as your warden, with more tricks in your back pocket to boot.  And you'd see why other healing classes don't complain as much about their EoF AA lines.</blockquote><p>So people becoming better practiced and getting geared up has shown a flaw in the devs forsight to how they built the warden?</p><p>Sounds like most people think the warden is viable and maybe even needed up to near the end content point. Hence alot of us think this stuff is sounding like whineing.</p><p>Nobody is really giving any specifics on what would make us needed all the way through the timeline, just that our awesome healing pwr isnt needed anymore because the easiest way figured out by most guilds doesnt include a warden in the line up.</p><p>So from a devs point of veiw ... imo ... It looks like other classes need nerfing or game mechanics and content need to be harder. Adding something to only the warden class would most likely throw the delicate balance out that they have been trying so hard to acheive.</p><p>Or some of you could be right .... The devs just hate the Warden class ... and everytime someone makes one, there is this phrase heard at SOE "Muhahahaha ...another sucker is born"</p><p>But seriously , I think a revamp of buffs between all priests and how our concentration is used (give us different buff up variety) would bring more balance to the game all the way through and more fun to the game for those of us that need to be needed. Because having fun is the #1 reason for playing this game , isnt it?  No matter what that is for the individual.</p>

[MullenSkywatcher]

<cite>Skivley101 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geistman@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>So actually we should focus more on the strengths of the Warden class and I am absolutely sure, that this is the key to a Warden delivering value for the raid and which should be improved. And thats my overal point of the discussion. It's not worth to argue giving us better HP buffs to outplay a Defiler, cause it would take away their strength. Saying a Warden is a defensive healer isn't just not enough, nor right imho. I mean, jesus, I really don't feel like I am making no difference when I'm raiding. And my raidleader knows that and won't switch me out for anyone else. I mean do you all really think that Wardens don't have a single strength?</blockquote>People don't think the class is hurting because they've learned how to raid with it.  Now take the same skilled player and give them more tools to work with, and you have something that pushes your guild further up the progression ladder.  Thats what the plate and chain classes and furies are bringing.  If you switches classes, you'd learn that class and be just as good a healer as your warden, with more tricks in your back pocket to boot.  And you'd see why other healing classes don't complain as much about their EoF AA lines.</blockquote><p>So people becoming better practiced and getting geared up has shown a flaw in the devs forsight to how they built the warden?</p><p>Sounds like most people think the warden is viable and maybe even needed up to near the end content point. Hence alot of us think this stuff is sounding like whineing.</p><p>Nobody is really giving any specifics on what would make us needed all the way through the timeline, just that our awesome healing pwr isnt needed anymore because the easiest way figured out by most guilds doesnt include a warden in the line up.</p><p>So from a devs point of veiw ... imo ... It looks like other classes need nerfing or game mechanics and content need to be harder. Adding something to only the warden class would most likely throw the delicate balance out that they have been trying so hard to acheive.</p><p>Or some of you could be right .... The devs just hate the Warden class ... and everytime someone makes one, there is this phrase heard at SOE "Muhahahaha ...another sucker is born"</p><p>But seriously , I think a revamp of buffs between all priests and how our concentration is used (give us different buff up variety) would bring more balance to the game all the way through and more fun to the game for those of us that need to be needed. Because having fun is the #1 reason for playing this game , isnt it?  No matter what that is for the individual.</p></blockquote>I'm not sure I understand what your point is Skivley.  The original poster asked for input on the current and past state of the warden, and was answered by several people with specifics on what the problems facing raiding wardens were/are.  The responses for the most part wandered off topic like a pregnant yak.  You can certainly see what the warden have nots are (utility, dps)Since I'm not an SoE developer, I don't feel the need to lay out a plan for revamping the warden, thats their job.  An entire revamp of warden spells, much less all priest spells seems unlikely, so wardens will just have to live with what they have for the next 10 weeks or so until we get details on what the spell consolidation looks like.It's not whining to point out the deficiencies of the class in regards to raiding, anymore than pointing out the strengths makes you an SOE fanboy, but the negative posts in this thread have specific examples where the positive ones seem to be viewing the class through rose colored glasses.I obviously don't think the developers hate any class (I don't know where this idea comes from), but the way the class is built currently has dug the class a hole that I think will be difficult to get out of without a different kind of raid encounter.  The original poster can read all the responses to his question and decide for himself ultimately.

[Skivley101]

<p>  Mully wrote this : The original poster can read all the responses to his question and decide for himself ultimately.</p><p>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~</p><p>I actually appreciate your responses ... and im sure others do too</p><p>Its just i dont share your oppinion on what the warden needs to balance out.</p><p>Ya sorry to the Op!! your thread got hiJacked !!!</p><p>What we need is some consolidation on the problems at hand ....I guess enough wish list ...and some hard numbers about why the warden is getting shafted on the raid content... would help ???</p>

[Avanya]

Actually I think the responses have been great, on topic or off topic.  I think it's great to hear all sides of an issue.  Hashing out the problems is important so all opinons are valuable.  I've learned a great deal from this post and hope that more people put in their 2 cents (well I guess it would be 1 dollar with inflation <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)

[Geistman]

Ok so far so good, I think we can all agree, that a Healers role is just not only the Healing, and even if a class sticks out on that aspect it has to be much superior to it's counterparts. The two aspects of a Healer Abilities are Offensive or Defensive, counting the Warden more into the Defensive corner, the Fury more into the Offensive. And the more I read and research the more I get the feeling, that we are really behind other healers with the fury beeing our main rival for casual healer spots in a raid, and Defiler or Templar beeing our rival for the MT-Healer aspect (assuming 2 Healer strategies at the top-endgame-content) or the Fury again considering 3 healer strategies. These are the main objectives when looking at balancing, either provide the same amount or soemthing equal in another aspect. A focus of a class means, that they have to at least excel other classes in that way or have a desired unique ability which makes them outstanding in that area. Also the potential of a class, or the value it delivers, can't be directly seen on parses, as "passive" skills like debuffs and stat increases don't get recognized in the parse. Offensive Healer Abilities (decrasing the time to kill the mob, increasing DPS of the Raid) DPS Utility/Buff doing DPS on your own DPS debuff (Debuffing the Mob so more Damage can be done) Defensive Healer Abilities (increasing the time a Raid can live, decreasing the Mobs DPS) increasing Stats/HP/Power (gives you a larger range of operation, increasing the time/damage for the mob needed to kill a tank/group) Damage Prevention (Resists, Mitigation, Ward/Absorb, Debuff, same as above) HealingPower (max HPS long/short term, coping with Spike/OneShot, Heal/Power+PowerManagement) Countering Effects (like Stifles/Stuns) I'll try to summarize the posts so far: Wardens ... ... have best Healing/Power (Defensive Healing Power) ... Healing increased with +Healing chance on the first tick. (increased Defensive Healing Power) ... are a hugly sucesful solo class (non raid content, but needs to be adresses cause of balance issues) ... have best roots (non raid content, but same as above) ... defensive role isn't as obvious as the offensive of other healers ... AGI buff is a joke Unique Warden abilities (value need to be cheked on current raid encounters) Heal whole group much in short time Defensive Spells (Spores, Exaltation, Tranquility, Death Preventions) Offensive Spells (Primitive Instinct) What I try in the next step is to strip down the Warden on every single aspect, which will get pretty frustrating. I just cheked on the Healpower of a Warden Fury (will post that soon) and it didn't turn out the way I thought it would. Just to give a foresight, Fury and Warden regarding their Healpower are pretty balanced from my point of view. Cool isn't it? The Warden having superior Healing skills, yeah sure.... Pls post if I missed an aspect or anything.

[Geistman]

now see if that works.Healing over a long duration. Thats for me overall HPS one can achieve. Now blabla depends on incoming damage, tank not always under 100% blabla. This are ideal numbers showing how much is possible. Yeah I know thats one problem , that mobs dont hit as hard and going full out isnt possible.. anyhow those are common problems of anyhealer and therefore can be neglected in comparison.<img src="http://homepages.mci4me.at/~dm4133/Privat/EQ2/ResultHealCompare.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> Those numbers result if you spam the single heals over 2 minutes and show your actual <b>Hitpoints healed per second (HPS)</b>... They result in approaching these values after this time or stay near them (+/-1-2 HPS). Also the values result on a single target, so group heals counting as one hit as well. Thats for simplification reasons, but should in the sense of balance result in the same.Single Heals look like that (calculated every 0.5 secs over 120 seconds):<img src="http://homepages.mci4me.at/~dm4133/Privat/EQ2/Chloroplast.jpg" border="0" alt="" /><img src="http://homepages.mci4me.at/~dm4133/Privat/EQ2/Verdant.jpg" border="0" alt="" />I considered Castingtimes Durations and recasting, recasting that way, that the duration of the spell is fully taken (Chloroplast recast right after 6 secs). So no Wild regeneration in there, but same again, this is available for furies and wardens, so no difference.Crit 0% and +0 Healing. Crits should have a little better effect on wardens as their maximum is higher, but nothing significantly.I also didn't include Spores and Emergency Heals, cause I haven't figured out yet how to calculate that in a fair way (proc chances are hard to tell)Result: Wardens have slightly more healpower (20 HPS boah eh!) but furies have a closer range with their healing spells (difference between minimum and maximum possible heals)In general the direct heals of the fury heal more in the first 3 seconds, then the Warden, due to the ticks, which the fury doesnt have.

[Skivley101]

<p>Thats some great work there Geistman <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Its interesting your showing the Warden slightly ahead with 2 less heals. I think you could put spores in there for and average proc rate (unenhanced) atleast twice maybe over your 2 mins ... And the tree in there just cut in half for its 1 min duration for your 2 min comparison?</p><p>I think it would also be good to show pwr spent ... or and average pwr per hp cost. Ill see what i can do for some comparison , since im not totally familiar with the fury, Are those pretty much all of the fury heals?</p>

[Skivley101]

<p>Ok since i was saying the pwr cost might be some good info to include and that the warden was missing 2 comparable heals... I thought id go ahead and throw in what i found out with some quick investigation . Didnt bother with makin a chart cuz im not as good at it as you Geistman.</p><p>I switched your comparisons around a bit and came up with 8 heals for each ... heres what the warden's spell vs the furie's top possible heal adept3 quality over 1 min with pwr/hp ratio reading em off the broker from my coercer that has 103/225 ministration , So im not sure what the real pwr costs are between the 2 with the same ministration. Im only showing 4 of the 8 here for pwr comparison .... becuz the single/group regens are the same & the other 2 arent really comparable in that way (ill talk about them later)</p><p>Sylvan streams vs Wild salve ...  warden heals for 2400>fury over 1 min ... warden 6.0hp/1pwr ,fury 5.5hp/1pwr</p><p>Verdant bliss vs Natures elixir ... warden heals for 2160>fury over 1 min ... warden 6.8hp/1pwr ,fury 5.6hp/1pwr</p><p>Wave heal vs Shriek untame  ...  warden heals for 2714>fury over 1 min ... warden 3.8hp/1pwr ,fury 3.3hp/1pwr  (single target)</p><p>Hibernation vs Protecting grove  ...  fury heals for 4200 > warden over 1 min estimate ... fury 6.1hp/pwr ,warden 14.3hp/pwr</p><p>So comparing these 4 only the Warden was able to heal for 3074 more than the fury single target over a minute while giving 10.4hp/1pwr spent over the fury .   Hmmm not sure how much more Uber in healing pwr this translates to in actual use for the warden being better than the fury <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~</p><p>So lets take a look at the other 2 spells i said id get back to...</p><p>Regentive spores vs Carnal mask incombat health regen ..... IMO i thought we could compare the 2 for healing pwr purposes</p><p>Spores at 8% proc with a single mob having a 2 sec weapon delay puts this at 2.4 times a minute avg... Heal minimum 2376 max 5808</p><p>Carnal mask gives 72 per tic (every 5 sec) in combat for sure ...... 864 a minute single/ 5184 a minute full group</p><p>Hmmm .... not sure what to make of that one.</p><p>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~</p><p>So for my last comparison .... This one is kind of odd ball , But we are looking at the healing pwr in end content raid</p><p>Tranquility vs Back into the fray   ..... Looking at the maximum possible healing over 1 min  (Tranquil 2396 , Back Fray 12216)</p><p>Holy crap oly ....plz tell me it was a typo on the recast of Back into the Fray ...It said 6.0 sec ... Is that correct ? ? ?</p><p>If it were compared to our lvl 52 ancient .... Yes we totally got shafted ... and even comparing it with tranquility.</p><p>So im not sure what to think about this one? And im not sure if taking into account the other heals we have (Heiro,Death prev,emergencies) would even move us up in hard facts. So I think ill have to Aggree and join with Who i was refering to as whiners . </p><p>COMMON SONY !!! THROW US A BONE!!!</p><p>edited ... cuz even i couldnt understand ... lol</p>

[MullenSkywatcher]

Keep in mind that the two advantages the warden has over the fury (greater HoT and power efficiency) are further mitigated by two additional factors present in the majority of raids:1.  Any extra HoT heal is lost the moment the tank hits 100% health2.  Mana regen from bards, enchanters, overclocked mana stone, power roots, adornments, manastone 1.0, manastone 2.0, Quellious Diety Miracles, Necro Hearts, Conjuror Shards, and the myriad of power heal and flowing thought items reduce the dependency on the direct heal/power ratio.Start to compare HoTs under these guidelines to Wards (always useful) and Reactives (always useful) and you come to the following conclusion:  HoTs need to be the most mana efficient heals because some portion of the heal is usually wasted (unless you are uber enough to keep your tanks health pinned in the yellow).Thank you for performing the above analysis, its eye opening isn't it?  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Geistman]

<cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>Start to compare HoTs under these guidelines to Wards (always useful) and Reactives (always useful) and you come to the following conclusion:  HoTs need to be the most mana efficient heals because some portion of the heal is usually wasted (unless you are uber enough to keep your tanks health pinned in the yellow).Thank you for performing the above analysis, its eye opening isn't it?  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>Thats the reason i was just comparing to the fury, cause comparing two different game mechanics is an awfull job and takes me some hours for a single raid.  However there was a post once (either here or eq2flames) about comparing the maximum healing of the 3 different healing types (awesome and well researched, but in an ideal system as well) which had the same problems. Healing at 100% is the same for the cleric btw, as his reactive will be sucked away as well when not needed, but yeah, the hp/power efficency is no goodie.. its just a must cause of the healing mechanics of druids.To the fury/warden power consumption... i left that out, cause I already know that wardens are [no i cant controle my vocabulary, sorry]. With the new Sense of the bat it may have improved, howevr animal form still screws me up when looking for the dog for a minute when duelling a fury and i come back, the fury beeing at 100% again.What really has to be considered is the im full health and dont need a heal syndrom, but that needs a really sophisticated system and won't be enough to do in an excel timeline, but im working on that. release in 3 years when they changed the mechanics 3 times <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)Last but not least, keeping the tank yellow is not enough... orange is the key (under 50% Spores is cool) and just imagining the face of your tank sitting shocked to death at every trash fight is worth the additional effort i think <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Skivley101]

<p>Mulley wrote: </p><p>Keep in mind that the two advantages the warden has over the fury (greater HoT and power efficiency) are further mitigated by two additional factors present in the majority of raids:</p><p>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~</p><p>Well if you were able to read through that mess of crap i posted <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> ...You'd have seen the majority of the more efficient healing came from protecting grove vs hibernation for 8.2hp/1pwr better than .... the other 3 only equaled 2.2 added together.</p><p>So taking into account what your saying about the hot not being able to finish out .... The fury spends less pwr per cast on those top 3 spells making them more pwr effecient when our hots dont land. Calculating the pwr cost difference i read off the broker with my coercer ... The fury spends 152 less pwr between those 3 spell comparisons than we do.  The whole thing is starting to make me sick .... especially when i found what their lvl 52 ancient spell is compared to ours. </p><p>Did you miss my question about it in the mess of posting i asked?  Is the recast of Back into the fray 6.0 sec (and does it share a reuse timer with anything?)</p>

[Adrinanna]

For healing, Furies and Wardens can heal a similar amount. I don't have my parses available right now, but regularly raiding with a Fury, we are typically close on healing. However, they are able to maintain their healing whilst also doing a whole lot more damage then us. As for Back into the Fray, yes 6.0 sec. Don't know if it shares a recast. <a href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=15825" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/item.h...l?eq2item=15825</a>Logged in my Warden and confirmed that as well. Do we, as Wardens, even have a spell to compare to this? Tranquility is a totally different type of spell with a 1 minute recast!Furys have anti-death btw (<span class="postbody">Feral Tenacity (41) > Feral Vehemence (55) > Feral Potence (69))Heirophantic is no good on the MT if you aren't in MT group as it is Group Friend only.Don't know if they have any instant heals like our 15 minute recast Sylvan Embrace.Bottom line to me, is that when fixing the Fury class, they unbalanced the Druid classes. </span>

[Geistman]

Spores ftw! HAHAHA

[Fromingo]

<cite>Skivley101 wrote:</cite> <blockquote>The whole thing is starting to make me sick .... especially when i found what their lvl 52 ancient spell is compared to ours. </blockquote><p>And now you know where some of us are coming from.   You see this is the rub with the warden class.  We're NOT a bad class and this isn't about class envy.  It's just that high end raid guild leaders KNOW the ins and outs of EVERY class and they WILL MIN-MAX their raid set up to the absolute best whenever possible.  They always look to improve too.  A month ago we could do around 45K DPS on EH mobs now we are pushing 61+K.   That's just the way many high end guilds are and they don't get to be able to do the hardest content without pushing the limits of their raid force.  Yet Wardens just don't have much of anything to push the limits with.</p><p>Now when high end raid leaders look at Wardens it's like a tough job interview...they ask <span style="color: #ff0033;">'well </span><span style="color: #ff0033;">your heals are great but what else do you bring to the table.  Do you have awesome raid buffs?  Do you buff up your group's DPS?  Can you put out 3K DPS yourself?' </span>....and our answer is <span style="color: #33cc33;"> <span style="color: #0033ff;">'well umm no, no, no...I have this Tree though that heals plus some death saves'</span> </span>and they say <span style="color: #ff0033;">'well that's all nice but again that's just awesome healer stuff and we know you can heal,  is there anything else?'</span>....<span style="color: #00ff33;"><span style="color: #0033ff;">'well umm I do have a +offensive skill buff that rocks!'</span> </span>...<span style="color: #ff0033;">'oh really?!  That's great so you can buff up a melee group's DPS?'</span> ...<span style="color: #0033ff;">'well umm no just 1 person' </span>...<span style="color: #ff0033;">'1 persons?  That's it?'</span>... <span style="color: #0033ff;">*nods meakly*</span> ...<span style="color: #ff0033;">'ok look you seem like a nice kid, and that skill buff is kind of cool for our MT but he really only needs it on hard boss mobs, maybe.  So We'll let you be in the MT group for the really tough encounters but you'll have to sit on the bench during the trash because we'd rather have another class that can transfer/buff aggro on our MT.  Sound good?!' </span> ...<span style="color: #0033ff;">'umm yeah I guess so *sighs*'</span></p>

[Oisin]

<cite>Skivley101 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Mulley wrote: </p><p>Keep in mind that the two advantages the warden has over the fury (greater HoT and power efficiency) are further mitigated by two additional factors present in the majority of raids:</p><p>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~</p><p>Well if you were able to read through that mess of crap i posted <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> ...You'd have seen the majority of the more efficient healing came from protecting grove vs hibernation for 8.2hp/1pwr better than .... the other 3 only equaled 2.2 added together.</p><p>So taking into account what your saying about the hot not being able to finish out .... The fury spends less pwr per cast on those top 3 spells making them more pwr effecient when our hots dont land. Calculating the pwr cost difference i read off the broker with my coercer ... The fury spends 152 less pwr between those 3 spell comparisons than we do.  The whole thing is starting to make me sick .... especially when i found what their lvl 52 ancient spell is compared to ours. </p><p>Did you miss my question about it in the mess of posting i asked?  Is the recast of Back into the fray 6.0 sec (and does it share a reuse timer with anything?)</p></blockquote>Well, the question about the recast has been answered so I'll just confirm that Back into the Fray does not share a timer with anything.

[Frametree]

<cite>Fromingo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well said.  This is the issue exactly. <p><cite> </cite><cite>Skivley101 wrote:</cite> </p><blockquote>The whole thing is starting to make me sick .... especially when i found what their lvl 52 ancient spell is compared to ours. </blockquote><p>And now you know where some of us are coming from.   You see this is the rub with the warden class.  We're NOT a bad class and this isn't about class envy.  It's just that high end raid guild leaders KNOW the ins and outs of EVERY class and they WILL MIN-MAX their raid set up to the absolute best whenever possible.  They always look to improve too.  A month ago we could do around 45K DPS on EH mobs now we are pushing 61+K.   That's just the way many high end guilds are and they don't get to be able to do the hardest content without pushing the limits of their raid force.  Yet Wardens just don't have much of anything to push the limits with.</p><p>Now when high end raid leaders look at Wardens it's like a tough job interview...they ask <span style="color: #ff0033;">'well </span><span style="color: #ff0033;">your heals are great but what else do you bring to the table.  Do you have awesome raid buffs?  Do you buff up your group's DPS?  Can you put out 3K DPS yourself?' </span>....and our answer is <span style="color: #33cc33;"> <span style="color: #0033ff;">'well umm no, no, no...I have this Tree though that heals plus some death saves'</span> </span>and they say <span style="color: #ff0033;">'well that's all nice but again that's just awesome healer stuff and we know you can heal,  is there anything else?'</span>....<span style="color: #00ff33;"><span style="color: #0033ff;">'well umm I do have a +offensive skill buff that rocks!'</span> </span>...<span style="color: #ff0033;">'oh really?!  That's great so you can buff up a melee group's DPS?'</span> ...<span style="color: #0033ff;">'well umm no just 1 person' </span>...<span style="color: #ff0033;">'1 persons?  That's it?'</span>... <span style="color: #0033ff;">*nods meakly*</span> ...<span style="color: #ff0033;">'ok look you seem like a nice kid, and that skill buff is kind of cool for our MT but he really only needs it on hard boss mobs, maybe.  So We'll let you be in the MT group for the really tough encounters but you'll have to sit on the bench during the trash because we'd rather have another class that can transfer/buff aggro on our MT.  Sound good?!' </span> ...<span style="color: #0033ff;">'umm yeah I guess so *sighs*'</span></p></blockquote>

[GinFan]

<cite>Fromingo wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Now when high end raid leaders look at Wardens it's like a tough job interview...they ask <span style="color: #ff0033;">'well </span><span style="color: #ff0033;">your heals are great but what else do you bring to the table.  Do you have awesome raid buffs?  Do you buff up your group's DPS?  Can you put out 3K DPS yourself?' </span>....and our answer is <span style="color: #33cc33;"> <span style="color: #0033ff;">'well umm no, no, no...I have this Tree though that heals plus some death saves'</span> </span>and they say <span style="color: #ff0033;">'well that's all nice but again that's just awesome healer stuff and we know you can heal,  is there anything else?'</span>....<span style="color: #00ff33;"><span style="color: #0033ff;">'well umm I do have a +offensive skill buff that rocks!'</span> </span>...<span style="color: #ff0033;">'oh really?!  That's great so you can buff up a melee group's DPS?'</span> ...<span style="color: #0033ff;">'well umm no just 1 person' </span>...<span style="color: #ff0033;">'1 persons?  That's it?'</span>... <span style="color: #0033ff;">*nods meakly*</span> ...<span style="color: #ff0033;">'ok look you seem like a nice kid, and that skill buff is kind of cool for our MT but he really only needs it on hard boss mobs, maybe.  So We'll let you be in the MT group for the really tough encounters but you'll have to sit on the bench during the trash because we'd rather have another class that can transfer/buff aggro on our MT.  Sound good?!' </span> ...<span style="color: #0033ff;">'umm yeah I guess so *sighs*'</span></blockquote>/Touches finger to nose.

[Avanya]

<p>My guess is that the challenge the devs would have about all this is how to make wardens more desired in a high end raid situation without "unbalancing" them in group/low end raid situations.  Or that would be their perception anyway.  However, I'm sure they could achieve it with some brainstorming.  I know they take any change like that seriously and I don't blame them really.  It really is important to keep all the healers in balance.  If they add something too powerful, either we get nerfed back or other classes get bumped up which doesn't solve anything because then we're back to where we are now.</p><p>Just a thought.</p>

[Skivley101]

<cite>Arani@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>My guess is that the challenge the devs would have about all this is how to make wardens more desired in a high end raid situation without "unbalancing" them in group/low end raid situations.  Or that would be their perception anyway.  However, I'm sure they could achieve it with some brainstorming.  I know they take any change like that seriously and I don't blame them really.  It really is important to keep all the healers in balance.  If they add something too powerful, either we get nerfed back or other classes get bumped up which doesn't solve anything because then we're back to where we are now.</p><p>Just a thought.</p></blockquote><p>The way to do it in my perception would be the revamping of buffs between healers... </p><p>Get rid of all this redundant buffing or buffing that is only good for a particular situation...Im not really well versed on all the other healers buffs & it might cause problems with non healer class buffs.</p><p>But basically im saying to make our group buffs more specific (get rid of secondary stats that arent related to primary) and put concentration on some of our single target buffs and add somthing to them (like primitive instinct ,put str boost with mele skill boost) etc....</p><p>So in escence we would have more buffs that require concentration than we have slots for & we would need to pick and choose the buffs for the situation . That way multiple healers of the same class wouldnt be so much of a problem because of the different buffing possibilities of each player.</p><p>Example : 2 healers in off tank group .... 1 fills up concentration with group buffs ... other one fills up concentration with single target buffs. </p><p>This is just a black and white example of what im saying ... but the possibilites of shades of grey are pretty numerous.</p><p>It would turn our buffing and concentration cost into somthing more meaningful instead of cast em asap to fill up those concentration slots and do away with  buffs on all the time that are only good for some situations (like elemental on poisin mobs)  .... whats the point of that ...Id rather have the choice to boost some ones mele skills than protect everybody from non existent elemental dmg. we can do this with the wisdom pwr buff  , so the concept is allready in game , just give us some more choices is all im saying.</p><p>Yes I know .... its a very tall order .... But thoughts are the way things become existent.</p><p>Or just do it for the warden ....that way we might have more raid utility .... And on a side note , whats up with fighters getting a raid wide buff ? Ive only heard what the monks is ... sheesh ... that alone is better than most of ours combined.</p>

[Volkov]

<p>Something to keep in mind with the "Defensive" druid thing.  Primitive Instinct on the MT can help the tank out a lot with the ability to hit the mob if the tank has to go to defensive stance.  More specifically, with a Berserker, we need to be in offensive stance, or our % to hit goes down the drain, our DPS follows, which is how we hold agro.  PI can put a Zerker in Defensive Stance right up where he would be in Offensive stance on the % to hit.  Granted, the uber awesome raiding guilds' Zerkers tank all sorts of crazy stuff in offensive stance, so it is another case of what this whole thread has been talking about.</p><p>I just wanted to give an example about how PI can help out a tank defensively, by allowing them to use their defensive stance instead of their offensive stance and still keep agro.  Might be a bit of a stretch, but anywho.</p>

[Jayad]

Yes, but PI is the *only* decent buff wardens have (that's put on somebody else), and it's not nearly good enough to take a spot in the MT group. And as you mentioned, at the high end, nobody really requires it. So the "defensive" druid has.. zero defensive buffs you want in the end game. Think about it for a minute.

[Skivley101]

<cite>Volkov wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Something to keep in mind with the "Defensive" druid thing.  Primitive Instinct on the MT can help the tank out a lot with the ability to hit the mob if the tank has to go to defensive stance.  More specifically, with a Berserker, we need to be in offensive stance, or our % to hit goes down the drain, our DPS follows, which is how we hold agro.  PI can put a Zerker in Defensive Stance right up where he would be in Offensive stance on the % to hit.  Granted, the uber awesome raiding guilds' Zerkers tank all sorts of crazy stuff in offensive stance, so it is another case of what this whole thread has been talking about.</p><p>I just wanted to give an example about how PI can help out a tank defensively, by allowing them to use their defensive stance instead of their offensive stance and still keep agro.  Might be a bit of a stretch, but anywho.</p></blockquote><p>Defensive Druid .... what the heck does that really mean? .... IMO it looks to be taking a back seat to the person rideing shotgun ...LOL</p><p>Ya PI is a great buff ....but ***sigh*** .... we can only put it on 1 person ... and if your a mele warden without atleast 360/370 skills then your gona put that buff on your self for the heals alone. The guild lvl 60 horse is great plus some boosts from equip and other players makes it ok to put it on some one else. Would be nice to put it on atleast 2 people...</p><p>And on a side note .... Why havent you posted a Zerker pic in the sexy warden thread yet?</p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

Because the Sexy Zerker thread should be in THEIR forum?  LOL

[Skivley101]

<cite>Arielle Nightshade wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because the Sexy Zerker thread should be in THEIR forum?  LOL</blockquote><p>nah....were not picky are we? .... tell sormr to post up</p>

[Fromingo]

<p>We are picky!  If you can't make a tree grow from between your toes and wolves fly out of your butt then you should not pe posting pin-ups on our forum!  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>EDIT:  Yes the PI buff is great but it's only single target.  I have posted many times that if it was group wide raidleader whould probably want a 2nd warden for his melee DPS group.  I have had raid our leaders tell me this.    It would be one step towards making wardens more desirable on high end raids.</p>

[Oakum]

<cite>Skivley101 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Volkov wrote:</cite><p>Defensive Druid .... what the heck does that really mean? .... IMO it looks to be taking a back seat to the person rideing shotgun ...LOL</p></blockquote><p>I have the answer for that one. When you compare the two druid classes self buffs, the wardens is more defensive since we have a mit buff and the fury's dont. That is why we are better suited to be melee then fury's, lol. When it comes to group/raid buffs, druids are about equal, just different. The CA line aoe is quick enough casting too that if a squishier group member gets too close to mobs and gets aggro, it can pull the mob on the warden long enough for the tank to taunt it off. I suppose that can be called defensive too, lol. </p><p>That is the only ways wardens are more defensive. That would be okay since druid's in general are healer/dps classes which wear the lightest armor among healers so we should be able to do the best dps among priests also. Of course with the default nerfs (as in the other classes are buffed up and wardens basically stay the same) has reduced that. We are good groupers/soloers in kos str raid gear with the CA spec, heal equally in the same amount of time as other healers. We can heal more since we are more power efficient so end up healing more in a very long drawn out named fight that sucks down the power of the other 5 classes. </p><p>We probably would not have as much to complain about if EoF gear had supported the CA lines. That was a major miscommunication between the dev staff but that is just my guess. </p><p>Oh well, I am starting to ramble, I need to go home and farm green mobs for LoN drops. Wardens are decent at that. Especiallly when you add DS adornments, potions, and str potions to your inventory.</p>