Complete waste of time being a Bruiser now.

[Mordain]

I just wanted to thank Sony and the devs for completely and utterly ruining bruiser class by removing the DPS buff to our Brutality line. Reason?#1 groups are hardly going to want us now since our main attribute to bring to a party is DPS. Now we like a troub with our arts, wonderful, even hard to find groups.#2 Bruisers worse thing to deal with is that our reuse on our combat arts is HUGE. Now that you made Brutality line +to combat art damage, you bring us back on the parser about 10 spots since we again have to wait for our timers to go off to benefit from our buffs. I would like to know how much beer was consumed prior to this patch? I mean come on guys, hardly anyone plays a bruiser anymore, now you just set them back even farther. There is a reason why people are not going to play a bruiser and you just gave it to them.Hats off to Sony....wtg screwing up the classes again. /Deletes bruiser.

[Lord Montague]

<p>*gets out a tub of popcorn*</p><p>God I love these posts.</p>

[Cathars]

Must have always been a waste of time then since I never wanted a bruiser specifically for those things.  Why didnt we figure this out sooner?

[Mordain]

im not saying that they didnt have their problems, every class has their problems...But you telling me that the best thing of a bruiser is not their DPS buff?....i guess i missed the EQ2 school day when they taught what else is great about a bruiser..Now what exactly do we bring to a group, cause i must be wasted or something thinking that they DPS now. Since youre soo smart, why not tell us....

[grish]

<p>I dont think it will be a that big of a deal really, we are still way cooler than monks. I havent tested it either, but im pretty sure +90 to CA damage is going to pan out greater than +25 dps. Also keep in mind in groups lots of players are really high up with their dps buff so our buff does next to nothing where CA damage will give you bonus damage regardless of what your dps stat is at.</p><p> My assassin in raids rides 120-140 dps mod w/out my temp buffs, so what is going to be greater? giving me almost 150-170 dps mod, or giving me CA damage?</p>

[Mordain]

<cite>grish wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dont think it will be a that big of a deal really, we are still way cooler than monks. I havent tested it either, but im pretty sure +90 to CA damage is going to pan out greater than +25 dps. Also keep in mind in groups lots of players are really high up with their dps buff so our buff does next to nothing where CA damage will give you bonus damage regardless of what your dps stat is at.</blockquote>As i do see the point, but it just makes us even more dependent on our combat arts more so then before and anyone who plays a bruiser knows that reuse time on our Combat arts is going to hold us back. I just ran my parser and see my DPS dropped quit a bit, now to solo we need to wait for out CA to refresh, worry about mana alot more now, slows us down alot more now to also wait for these things.Im not really mad that removed the DPS, but they didnt think about something that would be just as good...they thought, well since we giving them + to CA damage, we dont have to worry....My point is that they took our weakest point and using that as a base for our DPS output now....thats stupid in my opinion. Now that i think about it, they did this to go along with the dual weild 1hd weapons im sure. So to make everyone elses character better, they had to remove bruiser key attribute. I got it, why not make rangers a melee class....give us 2-3 melee arts and + to melee damage...since this is the Sony way. No real thought into this change....just change and see what happens, thats Sony's new motto.Sony Online Entertainment, Changing stuff to see what happens.

[grish]

<p>About 11 months ago we didnt have adorns that added a dps mod and you were fine then, and we will continue to be fine.</p><p> You got to think of things coming in ROK, and just look at SOD weapons for starters. You are going to see a LOT of +mod items in the works that will affect all classes for ROK content. You will see more +double attack +dps mods, + crit chance, +defensive mods and things like that. So in a month or so, i guarantee you will be getting back your dps mods in one form or another.</p><p>Also on the plus side, our Dev fist got an upgrade, thats all good. Took something we could rarely use, into a regular piece of our arsenal.</p><p>Dont get me wrong either, I do see your point and am sort of sad to see the dps mod as my auto attack will go down, but I take it with a grain of salt and try to look for the bigger picture.</p>

[Mordain]

I see it, i dont think Sony does though....I see that there is going to be lots of nice updates in RoK, but the fact of the matter it isnt even close to coming out. I just dont think people going to see it the way that the dev intended, me being included. Dev fist in my opinion was extremely usable ....packs mobs was nice to completely destroy one and relay on my dps buff and melee to take out the other while the stifle wears off. If sony plans on doing this, why not just remove the bruiser all together....hardly anyone even plays them before hand, now id be surprised if each guild has more then 0 bruisers in their guild now.Not to mention, people who do want to continue playing a brawler will just betray to a monk. So they make the monk better at costs of making the bruiser [Removed for Content]. Tell me that doesnt have "SONY" written all over it.So basically, their should be just monk in brawler class, since bruisers are pretty much dead in EQ2 world. PS- just to prove it to you that our dps is hurt alot by this....ive begun to parse 100 mobs and compared it to my parse database. Will post the results.

[grish]

I hate to tell ya, but pound for pound bruisers still are gonna tank better and dps better than monks, nothing has changed. Monks raid buff might be a slight bit more desireable, but when it comes down to it brawler or monk, its not going to matter. It all will come out in the wash. My assassin would prefer the bruiser buff just due to the fact I run with a dirge, and the bonus detaunts would be excellent.Regardless of this change or any other in the past or future brawlers will not be a highly sought after class for raiding. And in groups ppl wont give them a chance to tank because without the right healers, it is difficult to heal them. I have earned my role in groups by consistantly being a good tank and dpser knowing my role, and being able to tank instances like unrest almost as good as any plate. (with a shaman of course)Bottom line is 25 dps isnt going to make or break us, you just felt the need to start another [I cannot control my vocabulary] brawlers suck thread. And i guarantee nobody has ever in their life said, he lets get a bruiser in the group for their 25 dps mod buff! We still cant tank raids, and we still cant dps like a scout, nothing has changed except a stupid 25 dps loss in exchange for +90 to combat arts.So if you feel this is really a big life ending change, maybe you should do us a favor and delete yourself.

[Mordain]

Monks are better dps, there is no doubt there. We had 2 bruisers, both of which are now in the process of betraying to monks after today. None of them ever made the parse on raids. Nor will after today. So that will make us at 6 monks and 0 bruisers. We had 4 monks and 2 bruisers before. However, monks tear it up on the parse and are normally within the top 5, with rangers. I dont see how a bruiser is better dps then a monk. Pound for pound they are more dps then bruisers, even more so then now cause their group haste didnt get nerfed, while as ours gets completely killed.People who played bruisers for a while will prob stick with it, now people who are starting new, will pick monk 9 times out of 10. Now bruisers are going to be less played, less needed and phased out. I dunno what raids you go on, but +25 dps to a group full of rangers is HELLA more then +50 to my snipers shot (yes my raid character is a 70 ranger, also have a 70 fury). This is where we losing out on raids. Sony has a wonderful way of making mobs and encounters harder and characters [Removed for Content]'er. This isnt a bashing thread btw...i dont hate bruiser...i dont hate anyone, i just think people should see that this change is much much more then just removing the dps buff. This is virtually taking bruisers completely off the map. Why want a bruiser when you can bring a dirge and or a troub? We just weaker version of them.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>grish wrote:</cite><blockquote>Regardless of this change or any other in the past or future brawlers will not be a highly sought after class for raiding. And in groups ppl wont give them a chance to tank because without the right healers, it is difficult to heal them. <b>I have earned my role in groups by consistantly being a good tank and dpser knowing my role, and being able to tank instances like unrest almost as good as any plate</b>. (with a shaman of course)</blockquote>Barring a bit of brusqueness there, Grish has got the gist of it. In the end, it's not the abilities and changes and modifiers that make or break the player so much as the person sitting behind the screen knowing what they're doing. Still, I'd miss my monky rice hat too much to make the switch to bruiser. Plus, I just think that monks rule. <winks>

[Mordain]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>grish wrote:</cite><blockquote>Regardless of this change or any other in the past or future brawlers will not be a highly sought after class for raiding. And in groups ppl wont give them a chance to tank because without the right healers, it is difficult to heal them. <b>I have earned my role in groups by consistantly being a good tank and dpser knowing my role, and being able to tank instances like unrest almost as good as any plate</b>. (with a shaman of course)</blockquote>Barring a bit of brusqueness there, Grish has got the gist of it. In the end, it's not the abilities and changes and modifiers that make or break the player so much as the person sitting behind the screen knowing what they're doing. Still, I'd miss my monky rice hat too much to make the switch to bruiser. Plus, I just think that monks rule. <winks></blockquote>Ok, i see where this is going and going to stop this thought now...IF ALL BASES ARE EQUAL...if the skill of the players are matched....im am not talking about someone who doesnt know their role. I want this to be about people who have been playing a bruiser for at least 60 levels. Now that being said....everyone being of equal skill.....Can we get back to the topic at hand....its about the nerfing of our DPS buffs and changing the class for the worst...It is NOT ABOUT PERSON NOT KNOWING HOW TO PLAY. I dont want to hear another thing about "people who know how to play this do this" Of course a person is going to need to be breathing to play, of course they going to need to move hands to play....you get my point?I agree for the most part though, they are just not needed in anyway, even more so then before since a major skill we bring to dps is our DPS buff. tell me any other reason why we would get group other then our DPS buff....DPS? Scouts and monks beat usTanking? Plate tanks spank us+CA damage? Dirges and troub work usPretty much the only thing we bring to a group now is dev fist....used every 3mins .....now, make it like 1 min like a regular CA and that will bring us up on the DPS table. Of course Sony dev's prob never thought of that....Again, my point is instead of gimping classes to the point that no one will play them, why not just remove them?

[grish]

<cite>Mordain wrote:</cite><blockquote>PS- just to prove it to you that our dps is hurt alot by this....ive begun to parse 100 mobs and compared it to my parse database. Will post the results. </blockquote><p>What kind of parse tests are you running? I mean really you say our CAs are to long, but if its a flat +90 pound and dropkick are 10 sec recast, thats +180 damage every 10 seconds. </p><p>Now im sure it doesnt work like this but </p><p>180 every 10 secs for a minute = 1080 Damage.25 dps x 60 seconds = 1500 damage.</p><p>So, breaking down the pound dropkick DPS = 18 dps, not including other +90s from the other dozen combat arts we have and use. Its gonna take quite a bit to convince me this change is gonna make us [Removed for Content] for soloing. I know in groups 90 p/CA is going to out parse 25 dps. </p>

[Mordain]

<cite>grish wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mordain wrote:</cite><blockquote>PS- just to prove it to you that our dps is hurt alot by this....ive begun to parse 100 mobs and compared it to my parse database. Will post the results. </blockquote><p>What kind of parse tests are you running? I mean really you say our CAs are to long, but if its a flat +90 pound and dropkick are 10 sec recast, thats +180 damage every 10 seconds. </p><p>Now im sure it doesnt work like this but </p><p>180 every 10 secs for a minute = 1080 Damage.25 dps x 60 seconds = 1500 damage.</p><p>So, breaking down the pound dropkick DPS = 18 dps, not including other +90s from the other dozen combat arts we have and use. Its gonna take quite a bit to convince me this change is gonna make us [Removed for Content] for soloing. I know in groups 90 p/CA is going to out parse 25 dps. </p></blockquote>I pretty much use the same order for mobs i grind with....same order of combat arts, wait the same time normally....im a systematic person, im like this on all my charaters. The combat arts in my hotbar havent changed, nor has the order of which i use them. SO while its not 100% exact, its just to give a idea. Im sure Sony devs didnt go this far to check bruiser before they changed them.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Mordain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Again, my point is instead of gimping classes to the point that no one will play them, why not just remove them?</blockquote><p>And yet, in spite of the fact that we can't tank raids, and in spite of the fact that we won't parse as well as a sorcerer or a predator, we <i>still</i> manage to find a spot on raids. In spite of the fact that a guardian of equal skill and gear will tank better than me, I <i>still</i> manage to get asked to tank for groups... including Unrest and not always with a shaman as one of the healers.</p><p>So my point is still valid. The person behind the character makes the difference. Why not just remove them? Because people <i>enjoy</i> playing brawlers. They're <i>fun</i>. They appeal to a certain aspect of adventure that many have probably dreamed about as a kid after watching Bruce Lee movies and Hong Kong Phooey. (Gods, I hope I didn't just betray my age there.)</p><p>Do I think brawlers need some loving? Oh gods yes! So do a number of other classes out there. Do I think they've been gimped to the point that they should just be removed? Nope. Just give my monky girl a little more utility, and I'm a happy camper.</p>

[Mordain]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mordain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Again, my point is instead of gimping classes to the point that no one will play them, why not just remove them?</blockquote><p>And yet, in spite of the fact that we can't tank raids, and in spite of the fact that we won't parse as well as a sorcerer or a predator, we <i>still</i> manage to find a spot on raids. In spite of the fact that a guardian of equal skill and gear will tank better than me, I <i>still</i> manage to get asked to tank for groups... including Unrest and not always with a shaman as one of the healers.</p><p>So my point is still valid. The person behind the character makes the difference. Why not just remove them? Because people <i>enjoy</i> playing brawlers. They're <i>fun</i>. They appeal to a certain aspect of adventure that many have probably dreamed about as a kid after watching Bruce Lee movies and Hong Kong Phooey. (Gods, I hope I didn't just betray my age there.)</p><p>Do I think brawlers need some loving? Oh gods yes! So do a number of other classes out there. Do I think they've been gimped to the point that they should just be removed? Nope. Just give my monky girl a little more utility, and I'm a happy camper.</p></blockquote>But you do see that the only reason why you get spot on raids is cause its more then likely your friends with people in the guild. Not cause you needed....you may be wanted by a certain person or people, but its not cause of you skill (not you personal game playing skill, im talking about the class skill). They are a fun class, well, let me rephrase that...they were a fun class....it was a commonly known thing that monks get haste, bruiser get DPS....what is the benefit of being a bruiser over a monk?Monks have more DPS, monks get group FD, monks get group haste (which hasnt been nerfed), monks got the upgraded Dev fist, Monks get to use their mend on other players, monks get invis...Where exactly does a bruiser stack up with a monk? cause i must be missing it....

[grish]

Well, until you could give me some solid evidence based on -solo- parses, you arent going to sell me on it gimping us. What they did was took both classes and gave them bonuses that arent affected by [Removed for Content] stats. Like what good is haste with an illusionist in group, or dps if you got a coercer? It will do pretty much nothing for your group. But not with the +castign speed or + CA damage, it levels our the playing field. When it comes to the +haste or +taunt/detaunt effectiveness I think monks come otu a little better there for desireablity, but not by much. Even less since the current hate nerfs. As far as monks vs bruisers go you must be on the only server where monks show the bruisers up, ive never seen it or heard of such nonsense.

[Sapphirius]

<p><cite>Mordain wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>But you do see that the only reason why you get spot on raids is cause its more then likely your friends with people in the guild. Not cause you needed....you may be wanted by a certain person or people, but its not cause of you skill (not you personal game playing skill, im talking about the class skill). They are a fun class, well, let me rephrase that...they were a fun class....it was a commonly known thing that monks get haste, bruiser get DPS....what is the benefit of being a bruiser over a monk?Monks have more DPS, monks get group FD, monks get group haste (which hasnt been nerfed), monks got the upgraded Dev fist, Monks get to use their mend on other players, monks get invis...Where exactly does a bruiser stack up with a monk? cause i must be missing it....</blockquote><p>Correction, monks get an upgraded DF that doesn't work well with the way our CAs function. The upgraded DF actually <i>lowers</i> our DPS on raids.</p><p>Tell ya what. You get two 70 brawlers: one monk and one bruiser. Make sure they have exactly the same gear and their skills are exactly the same quality. Then you get exactly the same person to play those two and fight exactly the same mobs for exactly the same length of time. If the monk parses higher, then I'll concede to your point.</p>

[lancekortesoja]

brawlers  are still very good tanks in group (if they auctally taunt) and have good soloablitty (HINT HINT YOU CAN USE FD TO FARM TO THE NAMED AND SKIP THE TRASH)oh yea....<span style="font-size: xx-large;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;color: #ff0000;">700th post</span>

[Couching]

<cite>Mordain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monks are better dps, there is no doubt there. We had 2 bruisers, both of which are now in the process of betraying to monks after today. None of them ever made the parse on raids. Nor will after today. So that will make us at 6 monks and 0 bruisers. We had 4 monks and 2 bruisers before. However, monks tear it up on the parse and are normally within the top 5, with rangers. I dont see how a bruiser is better dps then a monk. Pound for pound they are more dps then bruisers, even more so then now cause their group haste didnt get nerfed, while as ours gets completely killed.</blockquote>Are you kidding me that monk has better dps than bruiser? Not to say, a monk dps is on top 5 with rangers. LOL. Seriously, lay off those dpsers who can't out parse monk at least 500+ dps ZW.I have both monk and bruiser. Bruiser is way powerful than monk in dps. Monk T7 CAs dps is even lower than bruiser T6 CAs. Give me a break, I can't see any reason that bruiser did less dps than monk in raid with equal quality gears/combat arts and buffs.For 25 dps buff changing to +90 CA damages, it's better for raid since half melee classes have enough high self dps buff.

[Couching]

<cite>Dragonfighter@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>brawlers  are still very good tanks in group (if they auctally taunt) and have good soloablitty (HINT HINT YOU CAN USE FD TO FARM TO THE NAMED AND SKIP THE TRASH)</blockquote>Then? Killed by named and revived at entrance. LOL.

[Mordain]

This is just a rough average....Im using ACT as the parse. Based on 50 fights, same mobs, same place, same quests. Zone was TT, mobs are the Scaleborn Warriors outside of SoS. On average...last nights average....was 501.11, again based on 50 fights, didnt have 100 fom last night to compared Todays average....was 481.89, again based on 50 fights. The highest single fight i had last night was 595dps, today highest was 599. I believe this is when my str ring proc'ed ...i think the DPS proc went from 22 to 28. going to run it again to make sure the 2nd one is right. Im a level 62 bruiser with decent stuff, can see my character at <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=651363102" target="_blank">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=651363102</a>Another thing to note, i went to a different primary weapon, right now i have 2 strifewind claws, should bring my dps up since its more damage then my fist i have in eq2 players. My thoughts, i know 20 dps doesnt mean much...but was this meant to help us or hinder us....if it is supposed to help us, then there is no doubt, it did not do that...now if its meant to hinder our dps, well they did that...not very very bad, but its bad enough. Another thing to note, im going through mana like a fat kid on a cupcake, spamming my combat arts much faster then before...but still mainly in the same orderStart out with Eye pluck, then lunge, then start up sky cleave or Crushing anvil HO (i use Pound to start it, single taunt to finish it) , then drop kick, then stomp-Meteor fist-Iron fist-Uppercut-100 handpunch, then finish with eagle spin and kidney punch. My burst damage does seem higher, which would make sense...but it brings overall damage down cause we have to wait for reuse timers. I can see how this might be good for people with all masters spells, but it hinders the average bruiser.

[PaganSaint]

Uhhhh....Did I miss something?Did DPS mod become somehow hard to gain?Did the changes to BoE type effects somehow not work?I want to make sure before I give up on everyone who posted saying the Brutality change is a bad thing knowing anything at all about how game mechanics work and how to actually increase their DPS.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Uhhhh....Did I miss something?Did DPS mod become somehow hard to gain?Did the changes to BoE type effects somehow not work?I want to make sure before I give up on everyone who posted saying the Brutality change is a bad thing knowing anything at all about how game mechanics work and how to actually increase their DPS.</blockquote>Nope, hun. You didn't miss anything. DPS modifiers are still relatively easy to get, and BoE type effects still work.

[grish]

Im sorry, but I hardley find a level 62 sporting MC gear complaining about how this is life ending for the bruisers to be even near a valid complaint, even more so now that ive inspected the monks in your guild. They all are wearing the same legendary set, with a piece or two of relic thrown in. How can you even begin to act like you know all about monks and bruisers when you really arent even one yet. Not a single one of them had finished claymore, it didnt look like any of you have dt access done, or done anything other than instances and labs a few times. Until you do some of these key quest lines which can be a critical part of your character development, making wide claims about either class is just stupid. And, if you have monks parsing up with your rangers, you need to get some new rangers, seriously. If you want to complain about somethign complain about how our AA abilities share a timer, thats the type of stuff worthy of complaining about.Not only that, you make these blanket statements about the change, but you failed to take notice that with the change your weapons should have got a better damage spread, and potentially make up some of this lost dps which we would have had on auto attack from the buff.Get to 70, get your masters, finish claymore, dt access and sod then get yourself some raid gear to fill yourself in. Then come back and tell me you are gimpy. You still wont be able to tank raids, and you still wont dps like a scout, but you will be a lot better off than you are at 62 with your MC gear complaining about how gimpy you are. YOu arent gimpy because of the class, you are gimpy because lack of experience.

[PaganSaint]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Uhhhh....Did I miss something?Did DPS mod become somehow hard to gain?Did the changes to BoE type effects somehow not work?I want to make sure before I give up on everyone who posted saying the Brutality change is a bad thing knowing anything at all about how game mechanics work and how to actually increase their DPS.</blockquote>Nope, hun. You didn't miss anything. DPS modifiers are still relatively easy to get, and BoE type effects still work.</blockquote>Ok.BoE type effects now add significant damage.DPS modifier is easy to get, I'm near or over cap almost always between adornments, procs and buffs.So increasing combat art damage, not only for yourself, but the entire group is worse.... how?

[Sapphirius]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>DPS modifier is easy to get, I'm near or over cap almost always between adornments, procs and buffs.So increasing combat art damage, not only for yourself, but the entire group is worse.... how?</blockquote>Ya got me on that one. I have no clue.

[Mordain]

<cite>grish wrote:</cite><blockquote>Im sorry, but I hardley find a level 62 sporting MC gear complaining about how this is life ending for the bruisers to be even near a valid complaint, even more so now that ive inspected the monks in your guild. They all are wearing the same legendary set, with a piece or two of relic thrown in. How can you even begin to act like you know all about monks and bruisers when you really arent even one yet. Not a single one of them had finished claymore, it didnt look like any of you have dt access done, or done anything other than instances and labs a few times. Until you do some of these key quest lines which can be a critical part of your character development, making wide claims about either class is just stupid. And, if you have monks parsing up with your rangers, you need to get some new rangers, seriously. If you want to complain about somethign complain about how our AA abilities share a timer, thats the type of stuff worthy of complaining about.Not only that, you make these blanket statements about the change, but you failed to take notice that with the change your weapons should have got a better damage spread, and potentially make up some of this lost dps which we would have had on auto attack from the buff.Get to 70, get your masters, finish claymore, dt access and sod then get yourself some raid gear to fill yourself in. Then come back and tell me you are gimpy. You still wont be able to tank raids, and you still wont dps like a scout, but you will be a lot better off than you are at 62 with your MC gear complaining about how gimpy you are. YOu arent gimpy because of the class, you are gimpy because lack of experience.</blockquote>I hardly consider myself ubah, but im not gimping cause of my level. I know how the class works and can see what you mean. However, parser doesnt lie. Im not using different gear, im comparing the difference between the dps mod and CA damage mod. This doesnt really have anything to do with my level atm cause the end result is just seeing how much difference between the 2. As i get better weapons im sure the DPS will go up, thats a given. As long as while i parsed both sets of parses are me with the same exact gear on. This will at least tell me what the difference is with both sets of gear being equal..Hell, i even bought a higher rating weapon last night and my average parse was still higher before the patch. As it stands its up and down for me, after spending today messing around with parser i can see how much difference there is from last few days of parse database and how much ive killed now. So far i have seen that overall, we dropped alittle in dps..but gained burst damage....I can see some fights higher then before, but again, its less overall cause we have to wait for our timers to refresh before we can do real damage again.

[Cocytus]

<p>If my brawler wasn't an alt and I actually raided with him, I would have betrayed long ago.</p><p>Bruisers still pwn solo and heroic junk easy, no problem...however, raiding? Not much point.</p>

[Aull]

I will agree with Mordain on the fact the bruiser's combat abilities take longer to refresh. I feel that the refresh rate is to long. What if the bruiser is out of power because of power drain? Where will the +damage to combat arts help in this regard? I don't how a bruiser can be even close to a monk as far as dps is concerned. If the monk and bruiser are both just using auto attack damage....no ca's....just look at what that monk is doing!! Ok not trying to get on a monk vs bruiser comparison, but where will a bruiser be a benefit when auto attack damage is all he has to rely on? I just love to see my cousins monk hitting the mob three to four times, while my bruiser is still thinking ok I will swing now.....lol. I feel that bruiser just are not hitting hard enough like I invisioned a bruiser to be. I think it is cool that a monk can be a machine gun, but I feel that a bruiser should be cannon! Anyway I like my bruiser, but I just feel that he isn't really all that I hear the bruiser community saying bruiser are! Plates out tank us....I fine with that.....scouts and mages out dps us...they should.....but what do I bring to the table? I need some motivation here! Anyone out there that could please tell me what this class is good at...let me know. Please don't tell me that we are good solo....we have great burst damage.....ect...After I burst damage a mob and waiting for my ca's to refesh while the rest of the group is going ape <a href="mailto:!@#$...come" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">!@#$...come</a> on..there has to be more than that. Thanks for your time!

[Novusod]

Overall I have to agree with <span class="name">Mordain here even though he is only 62 or so. Being level 70 is not going to make a huge difference. I have a 70 bruiser that is in raid gear and what he says is pretty much spot on. It is a gimpy class that is a waste of time to play if your heart is set on raiding. The absolute best I top out in dps is 1170 but most of the time it is about 700 and that is in fabled T7 weapons and all masters. There is nothing special about bruiser dps. Heck my troubador can hit 700 dps anytime only my troub brings tonns of other stuff to the table when he raids while my bruiser brings nothing.</span>

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Overall I have to agree with Mordain here even though he is only 62 or so. Being level 70 is not going to make a huge difference. I have a 70 bruiser that is in raid gear and what he says is pretty much spot on. It is a gimpy class that is a waste of time to play if your heart is set on raiding. The absolute best I top out in dps is 1170 but most of the time it is about 700 and that is in fabled T7 weapons and all masters. There is nothing special about bruiser dps. Heck my troubador can hit 700 dps anytime only my troub brings tonns of other stuff to the table when he raids while my bruiser brings nothing.<span class="name"></span></blockquote><p>We already know that we don't bring much utility to a raid, either as a monk or a bruiser. We already know that we aren't tanking the raids. Plate tanks make better tanks than we do. We even know that we won't parse as high as other classes. <i>None</i> of these points are being disagreed with.</p><p>What's up for debate is how a bruiser compares to a monk in regards to DPS. Autto-attacks? Yes, monks clearly have the advantage, but how many players do you know are going to fight with nothing but auto-attacks... never using any CAs?</p>

[PaganSaint]

Yeah, its official, you people have confirmed that you have no idea what the hell is going on in actuality with the game.The DPS mod, was a weak buff at this point in the game. Period.Increased CA damage, benefits everyone, at all times, no scaling. Every melee in the raid benefits from this buff. Just like every mage and healer(predominately) in the raid benefits from the casting speed buff from Monks.Combine either of these(utility) with much greater DPS potential due to weapon choices openning up and the exact opposite of what the chicken little voices here are crying about is happening.More raid viability, for both classes.

[Couching]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah, its official, you people have confirmed that you have no idea what the hell is going on in actuality with the game.The DPS mod, was a weak buff at this point in the game. Period.Increased CA damage, benefits everyone, at all times, no scaling. Every melee in the raid benefits from this buff. Just like every mage and healer(predominately) in the raid benefits from the casting speed buff from Monks.<span style="color: #009999;">I agree with you that +90 CA damage is better than +25 dps for raid wide dps.</span>Combine either of these(utility) with much greater DPS potential due to weapon choices openning up and the exact opposite of what the chicken little voices here are crying about is happening.<span style="color: #009999;">No, it didn't help brawler. It helps rogues and warrior but not brawlers. Top end brawler weapons are 2.5 delay and there isn't any top end original 1h weapon that is 2.5 delay. None!</span><span style="color: #009999;">Even brawler can use brimstone hammer after lu38. It's not a good choice for brawler since it's 3.5 delay. It's impossible to sync different delay weapon and cast CA between auto attack without wasting auto attack damages.It's already tested countless by different brawlers including myself. </span>More raid viability, for both classes.</blockquote>

[grish]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>What's up for debate is how a bruiser compares to a monk in regards to DPS. Autto-attacks? Yes, monks clearly have the advantage, but how many players do you know are going to fight with nothing but auto-attacks... never using any CAs?</p></blockquote>Exactly. Monks buff doesnt even really help them since they are so near haste cap anyway. Maybe they are the ones that should be crying. Really, what good is a class that buffs haste so high that it just gets wasted? with monk in raid i can have what, 46 haste? Then add a COB, now they dont even have the auto attack advantage.I don't know, the bottom line is this is not a bad nerf. Any self respecting raider knows that the CA mod is greater than the DPS mod. While this still doesnt make brawler a top 10 choice of classes you must have on a raid, it did give them the utility to make them a class that is worthy of consideration for their utility.As for you guys who are still sporting KOS gear and still doing KOS damage, thats the nature of the beast. If you dont have things like Zek cloak, haste items, adornments and such you have nobody to blame but yourself. And if you dont have your SOD yet you should be kicking yourself in the teeth, hands down best item you can get without raiding, even the legendary blows all the kos fabled right out of the water. Really, my guy isnt that fabled out, mostly KOS but I got a couple good weapons, and 2 years of bruiser experience under my belt I easily parse 1500-2200 in a good raid group (average prolly 1400-1600).

[PaganSaint]

I'm sorry, you cannot look at only brawler only weapons now for top brawler weapons.Top end brawler weapon is still the 3.5s base delay GBH. 2.5s base delay Kama is best off-hand at the moment, there is some argument whether or not the Star Sharpened is better, but its situational for both arguments if both are available. Timing is a bit odd, but using baton flurry and any sort of a Bard you are looking at something that is very time-able with practice.Hell saw parses of 2.4k+ on ~1 minute fights from a bruiser today with the GBH/Kama.So please if you can beat that with the brawler only weapons and not any all Fighter weapons, get back to me about how the GBH's delay is holding it back.

[Mordain]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><p>Yes, monks clearly have the advantage, but how many players do you know are going to fight with nothing but auto-attacks... never using any CAs?</p></blockquote>quite a bit, when i run out of mana and that happens alot faster now ehhe.

[Couching]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm sorry, you cannot look at only brawler only weapons now for top brawler weapons.Top end brawler weapon is still the 3.5s base delay GBH. 2.5s base delay Kama is best off-hand at the moment, there is some argument whether or not the Star Sharpened is better, but its situational for both arguments if both are available. Timing is a bit odd, but using baton flurry and any sort of a Bard you are looking at something that is very time-able with practice.Hell saw parses of 2.4k+ on ~1 minute fights from a bruiser today with the GBH/Kama.So please if you can beat that with the brawler only weapons and not any all Fighter weapons, get back to me about how the GBH's delay is holding it back.</blockquote>See, you said brawler got benefit but your example is bruiser. Again, you made the wrong example to support your statement.Assuming you have 100% in haste, GBH is 2.3 delay and kama is 1.7 delay. See, the delay difference is 0.6 sec. Even with baton flurry, you still need 0.5 sec to cast and 0.33 sec for recovery. It's 0.83 sec. Even if you have <i>GOD LIKE </i>skill to time CA between the gap between kama and GBH, you are still wasting 0.2~0.3 sec on GBH damage in every CAs.Not to say, Monk has almost double CAs to click than bruiser in every minute. The more CA monk clicks, the more auto attack dps are wasted. For bruiser, since you don't need to click as many CAs as monk, the extra 11.6% double attack might be able to benefit your total dps even you lose some auto attack by CAs. Though, it's different for monk since we got too many dps wasted by casting our numerous CAs.Not to say, you have claimed that you did 2k+ with kos weapons as bruiser before. By your statement, if it is true, you don't need GBH to hit 2.4k dps in raid. It should be as easy as abc with EoF weapons to hit 2.4k dps in raid. Since you can already hit 2.4k with EoF brawler weapon, how could it be a new benefit to brawler to use GBH?

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Mordain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><p>Yes, monks clearly have the advantage, but how many players do you know are going to fight with nothing but auto-attacks... never using any CAs?</p></blockquote>quite a bit, when i run out of mana and that happens alot faster now ehhe. </blockquote>Then you need to work on managing your power a bit better and pacing your CAs out.

[PaganSaint]

@CouchingNo, said <i>I've</i> done 2k with with a hodgepodge of KoS and EoF. Have seen consistent 2k from someone who played bruiser while KoS was top, when I wasn't playing either brawler.Slight waste of auto attack, ~4-5 missed auto attacks a minute, is still better with 12% Double Attack on a weapon that hits in excess of 2.2k on crits than any of the available 2.5s brawler only weapons.While you are going for a point saying there is not enough time to cast, you skipped over the part about a bard being grouped. Additional spell haste. Then you try to say it goes to show something when I use a bruiser as my example when a monk would have an even easier time timing CAs with minimal delay to Auto Attacks.Couching. The game has progressed beyond the point where 2.5s is the max DW delay weapon for a brawler. Reliance upon CA spam as a monk is no longer the most efficient DPS method. Auto Attacks far outweigh any of those CAs, just like what warriors learned a couple expansions ago.--------------------------------Lets steer this back on topic.The OP was about how the +CA damage was a step backward for Bruisers, when it is anything <i>BUT</i> a step back.It not only increases the bruiser's personal DPS by much more, it also increases every other melee toon in the raid's DPS.Adding utility, and something that can actually be used everytime what it is modifying is employed rather than say the Paladin's raid wide buff which is complete crap.

[Couching]

I have no doubt that GBH is such a nice weapon that it's even nicer than star sharpen cestus for dps. Also, I didn't deny that it's might be good for bruiser since bruiser has less CA to cast than monk.However, as a monk, I have 39 CAs to click per minute.  I am going to waste more swing than bruiser with GBH. Or lost CA damages to get less lose on auto attack damages.Just as you said, spamming CAs might not be the best way to get highest dps. However, a lot of monks have tested the combo of GBH with Kama on test server. The result is disappointed. We did even or less than our old combo. I won't recommend GBH/Kama for solo. The dps is worse.We are not going to hit 2k critical by GBH with self buff.That's why it's dangerous to say that brawler can get benefit from DW change since bruiser did but monk may not.However, there is no raid in test server so that we didn't test GBH/kama combo with <i>raid buff</i>. We will see if GBH/Kama is better than Cestus/Kama or Razor gauntlet/Kama in raid.

[Timaarit]

<cite>Mordain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monks are better dps, there is no doubt there. We had 2 bruisers, both of which are now in the process of betraying to monks after today. None of them ever made the parse on raids. Nor will after today. So that will make us at 6 monks and 0 bruisers. We had 4 monks and 2 bruisers before. However, monks tear it up on the parse and are normally within the top 5, with rangers. </blockquote>Hate to say but betraying a bruiser to a monk will lower DPS by ~20%.And I can parse equally with a ranger currently with my monk. On DPS that is calculated by the duration of the longest toon in combat that is. But when I look at the individual DPS, the ranger is doing double my monks DPS, he is just holding back and waiting at the start so that he wouldn't get aggro immediately.Getting to top5? Sure. When there are only 4 DPS classes on raid and the zerk has a bad group setting.

[Zhephy]

<cite>Mordain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><p>Yes, monks clearly have the advantage, but how many players do you know are going to fight with nothing but auto-attacks... never using any CAs?</p></blockquote>quite a bit, when i run out of mana and that happens alot faster now ehhe. </blockquote><p>add proc mana on your both weapons....to delay OOP</p>

[Zagbab_Dorfbasher]

I have yet to meet a monk that outparses a bruiser (unless the player behind the bruiser sucks and the one playing the monk is realy good).And as for this being a super nerf to render bruisers useless.... Well, I'm not gonna say anything about soloing since I don't have a brawler alt. But as for raiding my guild has a monk and we have been reluctant to bring in another brawler to the force, but with these changes we will definately want one of each, the + to CA dmg is awesome for raid dps (assuming there are a fair number of melee dps classes in the raid). And the hate/deaggro thing also makes bruisers a viable option to bring to a raid for once.You have to see the bigger picture, brawlers of both types will finaly bring something to a raid, something realy good in fact. Sure, the buff might not be as good for a pickup group with all the wrong classes, but overall I think the new buff is alot better. And to focus on your own autoattack dmg is sort of silly, you will get an awesome utility buff for the entire raid. And besides, zerkers are the only class I know of that can hit autoattack, go for a coffee, come back, and still parse fairly high <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Cuz]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Overall I have to agree with <span class="name">Mordain here even though he is only 62 or so. Being level 70 is not going to make a huge difference. I have a 70 bruiser that is in raid gear and what he says is pretty much spot on. It is a gimpy class that is a waste of time to play if your heart is set on raiding. The absolute best I top out in dps is 1170 but most of the time it is about 700 and that is in fabled T7 weapons and all masters. There is nothing special about bruiser dps. Heck my troubador can hit 700 dps anytime only my troub brings tonns of other stuff to the table when he raids while my bruiser brings nothing.</span></blockquote>So your troub is great at raiding, your bruiser is great at soloing and they're both good in groups. Isn't that sort of balanced?

[Timaarit]

<cite>Cuz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Overall I have to agree with <span class="name">Mordain here even though he is only 62 or so. Being level 70 is not going to make a huge difference. I have a 70 bruiser that is in raid gear and what he says is pretty much spot on. It is a gimpy class that is a waste of time to play if your heart is set on raiding. The absolute best I top out in dps is 1170 but most of the time it is about 700 and that is in fabled T7 weapons and all masters. There is nothing special about bruiser dps. Heck my troubador can hit 700 dps anytime only my troub brings tonns of other stuff to the table when he raids while my bruiser brings nothing.</span></blockquote>So your troub is great at raiding, your bruiser is great at soloing and they're both good in groups. Isn't that sort of balanced?</blockquote>Nope. Not even close. You see _I_ do not have a troub. And I have no intention on making one either. So where exactly is the balance in that?

[Mordain]

What im saying is that in the game there is evil and good characters..the point is what is the purpose of making a bruiser over a monk now?Granted, at 70 with full masters and raid gear that it might help with the +CA damage, but thats what 10% of the bruisers on all servers? How many people capped their haste or DPS mod? Out of that 10% maybe 4-5%?Its almost no fair how much better a monk is in everyday gaming rather then a bruiser. Our autoattack does nothing. Since the dual weapons got patched and weapons become slower, but hit harder, the monk shines even more. Why? Cause they haste is the same....yes, its not HUGE amount of haste, but with the new weapon mod its much better then before. So Sony made the monk more powerful and the bruiser less. I mean, if you want heals as a plate tank you have a option to take SK or Pally, both sorta balanced (alot more then brawlers). The pally actually heals while the SK life taps, that 2 different ways of doing the same thing.....the evil version of a class is supposed to be somewhat the same and balanced. This is clearly not the case with brawler and alot of players see it. It comes down to what is going to attract a person to play a bruiser over a monk?

[Couching]

<cite>Mordain wrote:</cite><blockquote>What im saying is that in the game there is evil and good characters..the point is what is the purpose of making a bruiser over a monk now?Granted, at 70 with full masters and raid gear that it might help with the +CA damage, but thats what 10% of the bruisers on all servers? How many people capped their haste or DPS mod? Out of that 10% maybe 4-5%?Its almost no fair how much better a monk is in everyday gaming rather then a bruiser. I mean, if you want heals as a plate tank you have a option to take SK or Pally, both sorta balanced (alot more then brawlers). However they balanced none the less....the evil version of a class is supposed to be somewhat the same and balanced. This is clearly not the case with brawler and alot of players see it. It comes down to what is going to attract a person to play a bruiser over a monk?</blockquote>Stop being ignorant.With equal gear/CA quality. <i><b>bruiser has better dps than monk</b></i>. This is what everyone in this thread tried to tell you. You can't expect a bruiser with worse gear/ca quality to out damage a monk who has better gear/ca quality just because you are a bruiser.

[Mordain]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mordain wrote:</cite><blockquote>What im saying is that in the game there is evil and good characters..the point is what is the purpose of making a bruiser over a monk now?Granted, at 70 with full masters and raid gear that it might help with the +CA damage, but thats what 10% of the bruisers on all servers? How many people capped their haste or DPS mod? Out of that 10% maybe 4-5%?Its almost no fair how much better a monk is in everyday gaming rather then a bruiser. I mean, if you want heals as a plate tank you have a option to take SK or Pally, both sorta balanced (alot more then brawlers). However they balanced none the less....the evil version of a class is supposed to be somewhat the same and balanced. This is clearly not the case with brawler and alot of players see it. It comes down to what is going to attract a person to play a bruiser over a monk?</blockquote>Stop being ignorant.With equal gear/CA quality. <i><b>bruiser has better dps than monk</b></i>. This is what everyone in this thread tried to tell you. You can't expect a bruiser with worse gear/ca quality to out damage a monk who has better gear/ca quality just because you are a bruiser. </blockquote>Im not being ignorant, and we went this whole time debating this and not one person has flamed or called another person names. Way to keep it civil man...why not just bust out " I know you are but what am i?"And in all honesty, who is being ignorant...the person who speaks up about changes or the person who calls another person ignorant for speaking about those changes. If you going to post, i respect your opinion, as i do with everyone, but pls, keep flames and name calling out of it. with that being said, back to the subject at hand...Not everyone can cap out DPS not everyone can cap out Haste...the point is is that we shouldnt have to stack this up to match our monk brothers. I dont see it...maybe cause NO ONE PLAYS BRUISERS ANYMORE...could that be it? If so, i WONDER WHY THEY DONT PLAY BRUISERS ANYMORE.Maybe its just cause no one plays bruisers. I hardly see any bruisers on the server and the ones i do, dont touch monks on the parse. In the guild there is no more bruiser mains anymore, all changed to monks.

[grish]

<p>I gave up trying to tell him, he is level 62 and knows everything about bruisers and monks, heck sounds like he knows everything about bards and crusaders now to. He must have played every kind of toon to level 5 in beta. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Couching]

<cite>Mordain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><cite></cite>Not everyone can cap out DPS not everyone can cap out Haste...the point is is that we shouldnt have to stack this up to match our monk brothers. I dont see it...maybe cause NO ONE PLAYS BRUISERS ANYMORE...could that be it? If so, i WONDER WHY THEY DONT PLAY BRUISERS ANYMORE.<span style="color: #009999;">You don't need to cap out dps or cap out haste to compare bruiser dps and monk dps. All what you need to compare bruiser and monk is with <b>same quality gear/ca quality</b>. How hard to understand it?If you are a casual player, fine, comparing with a casual monk rather than a hardcore monk. </span>Maybe its just cause no one plays bruisers. I hardly see any bruisers on the server and the ones i do, dont touch monks on the parse. In the guild there is no more bruiser mains anymore, all changed to monks. <span style="color: #009999;">Take it or not, if you want to deal more dps, bruiser is the way to go than monk. Good luck on being a monk. Though, don't come back and cry a river that monk dps sucks and all your guild monks are going to be bruisers. </span><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>

[grish]

<p>Yeah, will maybe its easier to be a [Removed for Content] monk than a good bruiser. I dont think just because your guild has 10 crappy monks means nobody is playing bruisers. It sounds to me like the good bruisers on your server avoid guilds with [Removed for Content] brawlers to avoid getting a bad rep. Point is, for a n00b it prolly is easier to be a monk with 100+ haste and auto attack to out dps the brawler using x2 strifewing claws sporting ad1s and MC gear.</p><p>Trust me, there are lots of brawlers around and quite a few decent ones which I keep in regular contact with on our server.</p>

[Mordain]

You do see that to compare damage you need the same gear...i compare myself with monks of equal gear and level...SO get it through your head....IM NOT TESTING bruisers damage as weapon damage, im talking about the difference between our damage pre and post patch. SO stop mocking my gear using it for a reason as to how much i know, people need to level...i think ive leveled him pretty fast. Look at my play time on him. SO again for the 15th time....YOU DONT NEED FABLED GEAR AND OR LEVEL 70 to test the difference between DPS mod and +CA mod. The only people who like this change are bruisers who are decked out, capped out in DPS, full masters. This doesnt do anything for the majority of the people who play bruisers. Now, it might bring our burst dps up, i see that...but overall it drops us farther down.Again, there might be 10 or 15 of you out there that out damage monks, have better gear etc etc.....but thats a very very very small percentage of overall bruisers. So gear? doesnt matter as long as its the same as the monk or bruiser your testing against. Level, pls reread the first sentence. <cite></cite>

[tt66]

Honestly, I would have thought that the +CA damage change would have benefited bruisers who are doing solo/heroic stuff. I figure that those fights tend to be "burst dps" fights, that don't tend to last much more than 30 seconds.During these relatively quick fights surely the majority of your damage is from firing off all your CAs, rather than relying on autoattack?That being the case, isn't a change that adds damage to CAs rather than autoattack, a good thing?Personally, I'm more annoyed at the DevFist fiasco, the various bruiser stealth-nerfs, and the fact that my head hurts from trying to work out what I should be looking for in a DW weapon nowadays. (I <i>think</i> I should look for two 1.6s?)

[Sapphirius]

<p>I think I missed the memo somewhere. When was I supposed to do better damage than a bruiser? Not to say that I'm lagging behind significantly on the parses, but the only bruisers I've outparsed are the ones who weren't as well geared. That's pretty much been a constant througout the time that I've leveled my way to 70. I've always envied bruisers for their damage and tanking ability, which sadly, seems superior to my own as a monk.</p><p>Let's put some emphasis on a few things for you. Bruisers are <u><i><b><span style="color: #ffff00;">not</span></b></i></u> monks. (Is that enough emphasis, you think?) Their attacks work differently, something that Couching and Pagan have been bickering about through several threads. When we say the same quality of gear, we don't mean that they have the same weapons. If you're a bruiser using the exact same weapons as a monk, then you're doing yourself a disservice, and it's no wonder you're getting outparsed by monks.</p>

[Mordain]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think I missed the memo somewhere. When was I supposed to do better damage than a bruiser? Not to say that I'm lagging behind significantly on the parses, but the only bruisers I've outparsed are the ones who weren't as well geared. That's pretty much been a constant througout the time that I've leveled my way to 70. I've always envied bruisers for their damage and tanking ability, which sadly, seems superior to my own as a monk.</p><p>Let's put some emphasis on a few things for you. Bruisers are <u><i><b><span style="color: #ffff00;">not</span></b></i></u> monks. (Is that enough emphasis, you think?) Their attacks work differently, something that Couching and Pagan have been bickering about through several threads. When we say the same quality of gear, we don't mean that they have the same weapons. If you're a bruiser using the exact same weapons as a monk, then you're doing yourself a disservice, and it's no wonder you're getting outparsed by monks.</p></blockquote>Im confused, there is better bruiser only weapons then monk/bruiser weapons? I mean, i thought we pretty much share the same gear, even at 70 and in raiding gear.I do see that monks are not bruisers and back and forth...but the good/evil classes are supposed to be somewhat balanced. If not then you getting punished basically for being evil over good. I dont think thats whats intended, but then again...im not a ubah level 70 bruiser...atm my bruiser is just my alt. However, i spent 63 levels playing him and while thats not 70, its not level 20 either.

[Couching]

<img src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1422/1373031875_b634213ca5_o.jpg" alt="" border="0" />This is my bruiser and he is only lv58. He has lv 52 master crafted armor and weapons.He is alot worse geared than your lv62 bruiser. I am fighting a lv57 heroic mob as a lv 58 player. If I am fighting green mobs, I can hit 700+ dps easily. Not to say, I doubt your dps parse is from lv 61 heroic mobs.Why can I did identical dps as you did or even better with worse gear and 4 level lower?  Seriously, you should improve your skill rather than complaining why bruiser dps sucks.

[BChizzle]

Monks just jumped bruisers in the raid food chain but brawlers are still near the bottom.  DPS wise bruisers are a bit better.

[grish]

<p>Yeah, I can agree with that statement. Unless of coure you have a melee heavy raid.</p><p>Anyway, this thread has gone way off track with different bickering, the main point here isnt about who has the bigger wang, if its a monk or a bruiser, but bottom line is this change isnt a big deal. It is in the sense we have more usefullness on a raid or group than before.</p><p>Mordain, seriously I dont care if you parsed your monk the twin brother, at level 62 it doesnt matter what you find out, because in 8 levels and about a year or two of playing later your characters will develop and not just be a non-newbie level 70 character. The fact you make statements like "I leveled him fast, look at my playtime" only further proves the point you barely know anything of the class #1, and #2 if the class sucked you wouldnt be leveling as fast as you do. You have barely touched the tip of the brawler iceburg regardless if its monk or bruiser. Each class has traits and abilties that define it, we all can argue one is better than the other till we are blue  in the face. Bottom line for both classes is that even though they still arent as desired as other classes, and prolly one of the classes guilds dont actively recruit, this change does give them a bit more utility, and either class when being driven by a good player potentially could outperform one another in certain circumstances.</p>

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>Mordain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think I missed the memo somewhere. When was I supposed to do better damage than a bruiser? Not to say that I'm lagging behind significantly on the parses, but the only bruisers I've outparsed are the ones who weren't as well geared. That's pretty much been a constant througout the time that I've leveled my way to 70. I've always envied bruisers for their damage and tanking ability, which sadly, seems superior to my own as a monk.</p><p>Let's put some emphasis on a few things for you. Bruisers are <u><i><b><span style="color: #ffff00;">not</span></b></i></u> monks. (Is that enough emphasis, you think?) Their attacks work differently, something that Couching and Pagan have been bickering about through several threads. When we say the same quality of gear, we don't mean that they have the same weapons. If you're a bruiser using the exact same weapons as a monk, then you're doing yourself a disservice, and it's no wonder you're getting outparsed by monks.</p></blockquote>Im confused, there is better bruiser only weapons then monk/bruiser weapons? I mean, i thought we pretty much share the same gear, even at 70 and in raiding gear.</blockquote>It's not that there are monk only or bruiser only weapons.  It's that the best weapon for a monk is not the same as the best weapon for a bruiser.  1) You want weapons with a delay that allows you to fit your combat arts between your autoattacks without losing autoattack swings during the casting/recovery period.  Since monks have a different haste score than bruisers, their weapon delay is different with the same pair of weapons.  Thus the best delay for a bruiser is different than the best delay for a monk.2) Monks do more damage from their autoattacks, and have more haste and thereby proc on melee attacks more often. (But bruisers do more damage from their combat arts--so you can't really say monk>bruiser just yet.)    For weapon choice this can manifest in different ways, it can also apply to choice of gear for other slots like whether or not to use the planar orb of the <something> that procs on melee attacks--its better for a monk than a bruiser.  #2 is not as significant as number one in choosing the best weapon, but I suspect in RoK when things have more +crit, +double attack, +CA damage on them, it will become much more complex deciding what weapon is best, and will certainly be different between monks and bruisers.  Regarding the main topic -- before this change bruisers were by far the more popular choice. This change to the dps buff will not reduce dps by a factor large enough to change the balance in who does more dps.  In my experience a bruiser with an illusionist will out dps a monk but a monk will out dps a bruiser if they have instead a dirge or a coercer.  In short, it totally depends on the buffs you have, unless you're going solo then it depends on how long the fight lasts and how good your weapons and CA are.  Higher quality weapons is advantage monk while higher quality combat arts is advantage bruiser.  If you're using adept 1 and mastercrafted weapons or the str line then a monk will probably pwn a bruiser but if you go adept 3/masters then your CA damage will start to make up for the missing melee damage.  Also, I would suggest to the OP that you at least get to level 65, or read up on knockout combination vs dragon breath before you decide that monks are better than bruisers.   Don't ignore the vast superiority of savage bruising over silent palm either.  Oh and you might want to keep in mind that monks cant move when their mitigation buff is on.  Also, definitely look at weapon delays.  Your dps will go up if you understand fully the effect of weapon delay and the importance of fitting combat arts in between autoattacks.  All in all I think monk and bruiser are pretty balanced.  Having played both to 70, I have a slight preference for monk, but I fully expect bruiser to pwn monks in the face when RoK comes out (since what good will items with +40-50 haste do a monk and how much will they do for a bruiser?).P.S. What isn't balanced is brawler vs. plate tanks in the tanking arena. We're great for mobs under our level but 74,75 mobs tear us up compared to plate because of the mit curve and the way avoidance works. If they don't put mitigation jewelry in RoK we are going to be truly dead as tanks. 

[Novusod]

When I fight a 69 ^^^ with my bruiser I always have to use fear and mez so my dps does way down. Overall I don't care about my solo game. If I can complete quests and gain xp and beat other players in one on one pvp I am happy. What keeps me up at night is I am clearly lacking in raid dps and this change only lowers it. Don't say anything about this buff being raid wide because it is zero gain when there is already another bruiser in the guild which in my case there is.

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I fight a 69 ^^^ with my bruiser I always have to use fear and mez so my dps does way down. Overall I don't care about my solo game. If I can complete quests and gain xp and beat other players in one on one pvp I am happy. What keeps me up at night is I am clearly lacking in raid dps and this change only lowers it. Don't say anything about this buff being raid wide because it is zero gain when there is already another bruiser in the guild which in my case there is. </blockquote>It's not clear to me how having another bruiser negates all improvement in this being raid wide. Now four groups have +CA instead of 2.  And if nothing else you guys won't have to be in different groups to get the 'optimal setup'.  If you guys don't have a monk though maybe one of you should betray, if you really want your raid's dps to go up.   If you convince your guildie to do it then your dps will be that much higher from his raidwide haste buff.  IMO 1 bruiser and 1 monk is way better than 2 monks(or 6), contrary to what the OP suggests. 

[Sapphirius]

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you guys don't have a monk though maybe one of you should betray, if you really want your raid's dps to go up.   If you convince your guildie to do it then your dps will be that much higher from his raidwide haste buff.  IMO 1 bruiser and 1 monk is way better than 2 monks(or 6), contrary to what the OP suggests.  </blockquote>Psssst. I believe his bruiser is from the PvP servers. Opposite factions are not allowed to group together or raid together on PvP.

[Hamervelder]

Now you know how shadowknights feel.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Cocytus]

<p>Uh, I dunno what game you guys are playing but if we're talking raiding, monk dps > bruiser dps. Monks self buff what, above 100%? Bruisers don't self dps OR haste buff anywhere near that. Those buffs = sustained dps = more raid dps.</p><p>Bruisers only have more DPS against heroics and soloes. Dunno where you people saying bruisers have more raid dps than monks with equal gear quality are getting your "facts".</p>

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Bruisers only have more DPS against heroics and soloes. Dunno where you people saying bruisers have more raid dps than monks with equal gear quality are getting your "facts".</p></blockquote>If a monk is already at cap for haste, how much good is the additional haste given by other buffs going to do them versus a bruiser? None. That additional haste goes to waste on a monk.

[Cocytus]

Which is why you don't put them in a haste group. You put them in a DPS group.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Which is why you don't put them in a haste group. You put them in a DPS group.</blockquote>And by placing a monk in a group better suited to optimizing monk DPS, can you not also apply the same logic to a bruiser and place them in a group better suited to optimizing their damage?

[Cocytus]

<p>Yes, but a monk makes much more of it, as he can self cap his haste. You act like self capping someone's haste hurts them more than helps them, which is just... wrong :p</p><p>I know this, because I am a class that can self buff haste to about 130%. I get annoyed when I'm put in haste groups because haste does squat for me. However, if I get put in a dps group, thats a huge boost.</p>

[Sapphirius]

And you're acting as if monks and bruisers are the same and fight the same way. They're different and have different areas that they're stronger at. Rather than focusing on the whole monk vs. bruiser and bruisers supposedly being "gimped," perhaps the focus should be on the strengths of playing a bruiser... your CA damage.

[Couching]

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Yes, but a monk makes much more of it, as he can self cap his haste. You act like self capping someone's haste hurts them more than helps them, which is just... wrong :p</p><p>I know this, because<b> I am a class that can self buff haste to about 130%</b>. I get annoyed when I'm put in haste groups because haste does squat for me. However, if I get put in a dps group, thats a huge boost.</p></blockquote>You must be a hacker since the haste cap is 125%. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Moreover, monk isn't swashy. Usually swashy can be grouped with Coercer in MT or OT group for hate transfer. However, unless monk is OT, we won't have a chance to group with coercer.

[Cocytus]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Yes, but a monk makes much more of it, as he can self cap his haste. You act like self capping someone's haste hurts them more than helps them, which is just... wrong :p</p><p>I know this, because<b> I am a class that can self buff haste to about 130%</b>. I get annoyed when I'm put in haste groups because haste does squat for me. However, if I get put in a dps group, thats a huge boost.</p></blockquote>You must be a hacker since the haste cap is 125%. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Moreover, monk isn't swashy. Usually swashy can be grouped with Coercer in MT or OT group for hate transfer. However, unless monk is OT, we won't have a chance to group with coercer.</blockquote><p>No, the cap is 200, but it has a value of 125%. 130% haste has a value of about 108, I believe.</p><p>Also, in a raid, combat art damage has a much smaller role than it does in soloing and grouping. I'm in a raiding guild. I've killed Wuoshi. Working on TNT Mayong. I'm a min/maxer, I've looked at ACT. Personally, auto attack is about 50% of my dps.</p><p>I imagine it might be even more for monks, assuming their gear isn't horrible. Bruisers? Bruiser auto attack might as well be worthless.</p><p>Also, Nozomi, I'm not saying that bruisers are gimped at all. I'm just saying that their strengths are <b><u>soloing</u></b>, and <b><u>grouping</u></b>. They pwn those in the face, no doubt about it. Raiding, however, is another monster, and bruiser dps there sucks. In a raid situation, monks = more dps, bruiser = more utility (honestly not enough imo). For those who wanna call monks utility...SOrry but these days, Fall of the Phoenix really isn't much of a utility at all.</p><p>Edit - although now with raid wide buffs, I have to say I think monks and bruisers are about even on utility.</p>

[Couching]

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Yes, but a monk makes much more of it, as he can self cap his haste. You act like self capping someone's haste hurts them more than helps them, which is just... wrong :p</p><p>I know this, because<b> I am a class that can self buff haste to about 130%</b>. I get annoyed when I'm put in haste groups because haste does squat for me. However, if I get put in a dps group, thats a huge boost.</p></blockquote>You must be a hacker since the haste cap is 125%. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Moreover, monk isn't swashy. Usually swashy can be grouped with Coercer in MT or OT group for hate transfer. However, unless monk is OT, we won't have a chance to group with coercer.</blockquote><p>No, the cap is 200, but it has a value of 125%. 130% haste has a value of about 108, I believe.</p><p>Also, in a raid, combat art damage has a much smaller role than it does in soloing and grouping. I'm in a raiding guild. I've killed Wuoshi. Working on TNT Mayong. I'm a min/maxer, I've looked at ACT. Personally, auto attack is about 50% of my dps.</p><p>I imagine it might be even more for monks, assuming their gear isn't horrible. Bruisers? Bruiser auto attack might as well be worthless.</p><p>Also, Nozomi, I'm not saying that bruisers are gimped at all. I'm just saying that their strengths are <b><u>soloing</u></b>, and <b><u>grouping</u></b>. They pwn those in the face, no doubt about it. Raiding, however, is another monster, and bruiser dps there sucks. In a raid situation, monks = more dps, bruiser = more utility (honestly not enough imo). For those who wanna call monks utility...SOrry but these days, Fall of the Phoenix really isn't much of a utility at all.</p><p>Edit - although now with raid wide buffs, I have to say I think monks and bruisers are about even on utility.</p></blockquote>The you should say 130 rather than 130%. It's different.Moreover, you still didn't realize that monk rarely group with coercer in raid since coercer is always in MT or OT group. In your post, you are assuming monk can get dps buff, however, in realty, monk rarely get dps buff from coercer. On the contrary, bruiser can benefit haste buff as well as dps buff.Not to say, bruiser CAs are almost twice powerful as monk (twice reuse time also). Though, it gives bruiser higher burst damage and higher ZW dps. In general, bruiser has higher dps than monk in solo, group and raid.

[Cocytus]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>The you should say 130 rather than 130%. It's different.Moreover, you still didn't realize that monk rarely group with coercer in raid since coercer is always in MT or OT group. In your post, you are assuming monk can get dps buff, however, in realty, monk rarely get dps buff from coercer. On the contrary, bruiser can benefit haste buff as well as dps buff.In general, bruiser has higher dps than monk in solo, group and raid.</blockquote><p>I really don't understand why monks hate themselves for their self haste. You guys act like you would do more DPS if you didn't have it.</p><p>Also, there are a LOT more people that buff dps than just coercers.</p>

[Sapphirius]

Truthfully, I think brawlers could use more utility. However, I'm still disinclined to agree that monks parse better on raids than bruisers. Perhaps it's because the crew I raid with knows bruiser strengths better than monks and therefore places the bruiser in groups more optimal to increasing his strengths. However, since the crew I raid with is led by a monk himself, I highly doubt it. It's more that the optimal group for a monk is typically the one group that a monk will <i>never</i> get into. After all, how many coercers or dirges or whatever do you know that raid outside of the MT/OT groups?

[Couching]

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>The you should say 130 rather than 130%. It's different.Moreover, you still didn't realize that monk rarely group with coercer in raid since coercer is always in MT or OT group. In your post, you are assuming monk can get dps buff, however, in realty, monk rarely get dps buff from coercer. On the contrary, bruiser can benefit haste buff as well as dps buff.In general, bruiser has higher dps than monk in solo, group and raid.</blockquote><p>I really don't understand why monks hate themselves for their self haste.</p><p>Also, there are a LOT more people that buff dps than just coercers.</p></blockquote>Because you are not monk and you are swashy.Swashy always be in a group with dirge and coercer. With high self haste, of course swashy is happy.Though, for monk, we are always in the group of buffless unless you have 3 dirges or 3 coercers in raid. Inq will be grouped with melee dpsers first rather than monk. In fact, monk always group with mage group rather than melee dps group. 

[PaganSaint]

The best way to take full advantage of the Monk's self haste is to use an obscenely long delay main hand. The best I came up with was using the Knotty Pine Cudgel and either the Inlaid Rock Hammer(Encounter Proc) or some other high damage 1.6s delay weapon.This is to take full advantage of the modified delay when dual wielded increasing proc chance for the weapon and just loading up on every proc you can get.Still, bruiser self buff proc's are much more conducive to parsing well.

[Mordain]

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Also, in a raid, combat art damage has a much smaller role than it does in soloing and grouping. I'm in a raiding guild. I've killed Wuoshi. Working on TNT Mayong. I'm a min/maxer, I've looked at ACT. Personally, auto attack is about 50% of my dps.</p><p>I imagine it might be even more for monks, assuming their gear isn't horrible. Bruisers? Bruiser auto attack might as well be worthless.</p><p>Also, Nozomi, I'm not saying that bruisers are gimped at all. I'm just saying that their strengths are <b><u>soloing</u></b>, and <b><u>grouping</u></b>. They pwn those in the face, no doubt about it. Raiding, however, is another monster, and bruiser dps there sucks. In a raid situation, monks = more dps, bruiser = more utility (honestly not enough imo). For those who wanna call monks utility...SOrry but these days, Fall of the Phoenix really isn't much of a utility at all.</p><p>Edit - although now with raid wide buffs, I have to say I think monks and bruisers are about even on utility.</p></blockquote>That is exactly how i see it...where bruisers shine is not dps, at least not to me...its the ability to solo well pretty much, which is why i level so fast...but im into it, i play alot during my days off, im also a collection freak. However, i did still play most of the way, in fact, im almost 65. I just get to go on groups with guild people. Pre patch at least we had alittle more towards our autoattack which brought our overall dps up, now this is gone, you have to spend alot of mana to get 1 mob down, then wait for you timers for the next. This is the problem with giving us CA damage as opposed to DPS mod. Now, dont get me wrong, you can certainly burst more damage now, i can get into the high 600-700s now with all my combat arts used, but then im down to autoattack if my CA's dont kill the mob...now this is where dps can drop. I know the parser isnt exact, so i do take it with a grain of salt. I can burst up to about 1400 with dev fist used, i just didnt use it to parse cause i didnt have it the night before the patch. I can indeed do damage, not saying we cant do any damage at all.

[liveja]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Swashy always be in a group with dirge and coercer.</blockquote>If only that were actually true.

[Siclone]

<cite>Mordain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Also, in a raid, combat art damage has a much smaller role than it does in soloing and grouping. I'm in a raiding guild. I've killed Wuoshi. Working on TNT Mayong. I'm a min/maxer, I've looked at ACT. Personally, auto attack is about 50% of my dps.</p><p>I imagine it might be even more for monks, assuming their gear isn't horrible. Bruisers? Bruiser auto attack might as well be worthless.</p><p>Also, Nozomi, I'm not saying that bruisers are gimped at all. I'm just saying that their strengths are <b><u>soloing</u></b>, and <b><u>grouping</u></b>. They pwn those in the face, no doubt about it. Raiding, however, is another monster, and bruiser dps there sucks. In a raid situation, monks = more dps, bruiser = more utility (honestly not enough imo). For those who wanna call monks utility...SOrry but these days, Fall of the Phoenix really isn't much of a utility at all.</p><p>Edit - although now with raid wide buffs, I have to say I think monks and bruisers are about even on utility.</p></blockquote>That is exactly how i see it...where bruisers shine is not dps, at least not to me...its the ability to solo well pretty much, which is why i level so fast...but im into it, i play alot during my days off, im also a collection freak. However, i did still play most of the way, in fact, im almost 65. I just get to go on groups with guild people. Pre patch at least we had alittle more towards our autoattack which brought our overall dps up, now this is gone, you have to spend alot of mana to get 1 mob down, then wait for you timers for the next. This is the problem with giving us CA damage as opposed to DPS mod. Now, dont get me wrong, you can certainly burst more damage now, i can get into the high 600-700s now with all my combat arts used, but then im down to autoattack if my CA's dont kill the mob...now this is where dps can drop. I know the parser isnt exact, so i do take it with a grain of salt. I can burst up to about 1400 with dev fist used, i just didnt use it to parse cause i didnt have it the night before the patch. I can indeed do damage, not saying we cant do any damage at all. </blockquote>I don't want to be mean here.  But it seems like allot of bruisers here, really are not playing their toons to the max.  I would get with a good raid bruiser and pick his brain.  I would post questions on the class forum then check out their ideas.  I would run parse and then do break downs.a good raid bruiser,,,not even a great one,,,will dps 1500 to 2000 on every encounter, be able to tank Epic raid mobs----and bring the raid utility such as "drag and FD"-as a bruiser said to me yesterday when he was so excited about these changes "Bruisers were overpowered before, but even more so after this patch"my response was "it always seemed that way to me too, but why all the crying on the soe boards"his response "those guys have no clue" 

[quasigenx]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>"Bruisers were overpowered before, but even more so after this patch"my response was "it always seemed that way to me too, but why all the crying on the soe boards"his response "those guys have no clue"  </blockquote>QFE. I know two bruisers who kick butt in raids DPS and utility wise. I'm talking top 5 zone wide DPS parse.

[Timaarit]

<cite>quasigenx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>"Bruisers were overpowered before, but even more so after this patch"my response was "it always seemed that way to me too, but why all the crying on the soe boards"his response "those guys have no clue"  </blockquote>QFE. I know two bruisers who kick butt in raids DPS and utility wise. I'm talking top 5 zone wide DPS parse.</blockquote>This is called skill. If a bruiser (or a monk) is outparsing classes like swashy, predators, summoners or sorcerers, it is not about bruiser being good as a class, it is about the others being not so good at playing thieirs.You see I can parse to top 5 with my monk in a raid doing 30k DPS. But I cant even touch the DPS of the mentioned classes when their player knows what they are doing.

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>quasigenx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>"Bruisers were overpowered before, but even more so after this patch"my response was "it always seemed that way to me too, but why all the crying on the soe boards"his response "those guys have no clue"  </blockquote>QFE. I know two bruisers who kick butt in raids DPS and utility wise. I'm talking top 5 zone wide DPS parse.</blockquote>This is called skill. If a bruiser (or a monk) is outparsing classes like swashy, predators, summoners or sorcerers, it is not about bruiser being good as a class, it is about the others being not so good at playing thieirs.You see I can parse to top 5 with my monk in a raid doing 30k DPS. But I cant even touch the DPS of the mentioned classes when their player knows what they are doing.</blockquote>Timaarit is spot on here.  There is absolutely no way in the mechanics of the game that a good bruiser can outdps a good swash or assassin or ranger.  Why? Their combat arts do more damage and their base haste and /or dps modifiers are higher.  How will a good player outdps another good player who can do more damage with each combat art and more damage with each autoattack?If you give bruisers every good buffing class in their group, then maybe they can outdps these classes, but that again has nothing to do with the class, it's just the group set ups.  I'm not even going try to address the part about 'bruisers can tank epics' because its been explained in so many ways in so many threads why the mechanics don't favor brawler tanks.  Even the devs have acknowledged that plate tanks are better and that they are reluctant to change it.  Needless to say, I completely disagree that bruisers are overpowered *in raids*.

[tt66]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I don't want to be mean here.  But it seems like allot of bruisers here, really are not playing their toons to the max.  I would get with a good raid bruiser and pick his brain.  I would post questions on the class forum then check out their ideas.  I would run parse and then do break downs.a good raid bruiser,,,not even a great one,,,will dps 1500 to 2000 on every encounter, be able to tank Epic raid mobs----and bring the raid utility such as "drag and FD"-as a bruiser said to me yesterday when he was so excited about these changes "Bruisers were overpowered before, but even more so after this patch"my response was "it always seemed that way to me too, but why all the crying on the soe boards"his response "those guys have no clue"  </blockquote>I don't want to be mean here, but you sure do seem to spend a lot of time telling us that we're overpowered."Super overpowered solo class", I believe was your phrasing at one point.Look, you won okay? Your assassin has nothing to fear from the brawlers with dev fist any more. Your placing on the parse is safe. Please stop with this sillyness.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>a good raid bruiser,,,not even a great one,,,will dps 1500 to 2000 on every encounter, <b>be able to tank Epic raid mobs</b>----and bring the raid utility such as "drag and FD"-as a bruiser said to me yesterday when he was so excited about these changes </blockquote><p>Now, I know I missed a memo somewhere. Hang on a sec while I go tell KP that he can tank Woushi.</p><p>((My apologies for the sarcasm there, but that statement is just so wrong and in so many ways.))</p>

[PaganSaint]

Bruisers and Monks <i>can</i> tank woushi.Have been doing it for months....

[Sapphirius]

And like everything else, a guardian or beserker will be better suited to tank for raids.

[Aull]

<cite>Mordain wrote:</cite><blockquote><b></b>Pre patch at least we had alittle more towards our autoattack which brought our overall dps up, now this is gone, you have to spend alot of mana to get 1 mob down, then wait for you timers for the next. This is the problem with giving us CA damage as opposed to DPS mod. Now, dont get me wrong, you can certainly burst more damage now, i can get into the high 600-700s now with all my combat arts used, but then im down to autoattack if my CA's dont kill the mob...now this is where dps can drop. I know the parser isnt exact, so i do take it with a grain of salt. I can burst up to about 1400 with dev fist used, i just didnt use it to parse cause i didnt have it the night before the patch. I can indeed do damage, not saying we cant do any damage at all. </blockquote>I agree with you totally on this. I run up to a mob and think I can burst damage!!!! I find that after I burst damage the mob still isn't down and I am standing there waiting...waiting...waiting for the ca's to refresh. During that time my auto attack isn't helping me at all. Listen I am not trying to offend anyone, but I just do not see how bruisers are classified as dps. I would probably agree "I don't know how to play this class". I am not fabled or full aa's yet, but from what I am seeing my bruiser will never be what I keep reading about on these forums. Again not trying to compair monk/bruisers here, but I have yet to see a bruiser even come close to a monk on dps. If there is any of you on the kithicor sever look me up "bruisawll" is the toons name...educate me please. I really like my bruiser, but I feel that I am either not playing this toon correctly or I have my expectations set to high. All I am asking for is help! Like what combat arts should I use at the beginning of a fight....how do I hold aggro. When I taunt, pressure point, and 100 hand punch.....then a lower lvl bruiser takes my aggro.....lol well I can't understand that. Thanks for your time.

[Couching]

It's very easy to get 50%+ haste for any melee including bruiser. You can get 23 haste from DT access quest reward or 25 from Cloak of flame . 28 haste from master crafted agi ring and 2 from belt adornment.For high end bruisers, they can get battlerager for another 23 haste and 30% haste cloak or belt. It's easy for them to get 80% haste with self proc buff.Now, you can see why monk has high haste as self buff is disadvantage comparing to bruiser. Most  high end monks prefer bruiser CA for better burst dps rather than self haste buff. In raid, it's very easy, any melee in a right group set up, to get both haste and dps over 100%+ or even hit cap. Now, bruiser has better dps from CA, that's why bruiser has dps advantage in high end guilds.Even in casual guilds, casual bruiser, with 50% self haste, with monk 22 raid wide haste will hit about 65%-70% and almost double burst CAs damage comparing to monk 100% haste. You should still get better dps or even. Haste shouldn't be the excuse of dull skill.

[Mordain]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's very easy to get 50%+ haste for any melee including bruiser. You can get 23 haste from DT access quest reward or 25 from Cloak of flame . 28 haste from master crafted agi ring and 2 from belt adornment.For high end bruisers, they can get battlerager for another 23 haste and 30% haste cloak or belt. It's easy for them to get 80% haste with self proc buff.Now, you can see why monk has high haste as self buff is disadvantage comparing to bruiser. Most  high end monks prefer bruiser CA for better burst dps rather than self haste buff. In raid, it's very easy, any melee in a right group set up, to get both haste and dps over 100%+ or even hit cap. Now, bruiser has better dps from CA, that's why bruiser has dps advantage in high end guilds.Even in casual guilds, casual bruiser, with 50% self haste, with monk 22 raid wide haste will hit about 65%-70% and almost double burst CAs damage comparing to monk 100% haste. You should still get better dps or even. Haste shouldn't be the excuse of dull skill. </blockquote>I agree when it comes to haste cap that bruiser have the advantage over the monk, since their buff is capped but the percentage of bruisers that hit their cap is much smaller then the amount who havent. I just think its a bad move since majority of the bruisers, if not a huge percentage of them, havent come close to hitting DPS cap.

[Mordain]

<cite>Mordain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's very easy to get 50%+ haste for any melee including bruiser. You can get 23 haste from DT access quest reward or 25 from Cloak of flame . 28 haste from master crafted agi ring and 2 from belt adornment.For high end bruisers, they can get battlerager for another 23 haste and 30% haste cloak or belt. It's easy for them to get 80% haste with self proc buff.Now, you can see why monk has high haste as self buff is disadvantage comparing to bruiser. Most  high end monks prefer bruiser CA for better burst dps rather than self haste buff. In raid, it's very easy, any melee in a right group set up, to get both haste and dps over 100%+ or even hit cap. Now, bruiser has better dps from CA, that's why bruiser has dps advantage in high end guilds.Even in casual guilds, casual bruiser, with 50% self haste, with monk 22 raid wide haste will hit about 65%-70% and almost double burst CAs damage comparing to monk 100% haste. You should still get better dps or even. Haste shouldn't be the excuse of dull skill. </blockquote>I agree when it comes to haste cap that bruiser have the advantage over the monk, since their buff is capped but the percentage of bruisers that hit their dps cap is much smaller then the amount who have.I just think its a bad move since majority of the bruisers, if not a huge percentage of them, havent come close to hitting DPS cap. </blockquote>

[Cocytus]

<p>Wow. Now someone actually DID say that not being able to nearly self-cap your haste would be better than being able to.</p><p>/walks away from thread</p>

[Mordain]

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Wow. Now someone actually DID say that not being able to nearly self-cap your haste would be better than being able to.</p><p>/walks away from thread</p></blockquote>I can see why its better, but again the percentage of bruiser who have hit the cap is much much much much smaller then those who havent hit it or come close. So basically this really only improves your bruiser if you have reached your cap.

[Couching]

<cite>Mordain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Wow. Now someone actually DID say that not being able to nearly self-cap your haste would be better than being able to.</p><p>/walks away from thread</p></blockquote>I can see why its better, but again the percentage of bruiser who have hit the cap is much much much much smaller then those who havent hit it or come close. So basically this really only improves your bruiser if you have reached your cap. </blockquote>No, actually with diminishing return, there is no point to get haste over 110.For example, most monks have self haste around 110+. For 2.5 delay weapon after lu38, it's 1.6 delay. Even with max haste, the weapon delay is 1.5. It's really stupid that you get extra 90 haste and the benefit is so TINY! How to hit 110 in raid? Too easy. You can get 25 from CoF, 28 from agi ring and 2 from adornment. That's 55. You will also get 22 from monk raid wide so that you have 77 now.Who can give you extra haste in group? Illusionist, dirge, inq, zerker or even mystical has slight haste buff from pet, not to say troub. See, don't tell me that you didn't group with one or two of them in raid. Even casual bruiser can hit 110 haste in raid most time, stop using haste as excuse if you have problem on dps.The diminishing return of haste is too ridiculous. It needs to be linear. Otherwise, monk CAs need boost comparing to bruiser.

[Mordain]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mordain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Wow. Now someone actually DID say that not being able to nearly self-cap your haste would be better than being able to.</p><p>/walks away from thread</p></blockquote>I can see why its better, but again the percentage of bruiser who have hit the cap is much much much much smaller then those who havent hit it or come close. So basically this really only improves your bruiser if you have reached your cap. </blockquote>No, actually with diminishing return, there is no point to get haste over 110.For example, most monks have self haste around 110+. For 2.5 delay weapon after lu38, it's 1.6 delay. Even with max haste, the weapon delay is 1.5. It's really stupid that you get extra 90 haste and the benefit is so TINY! How to hit 110 in raid? Too easy. You can get 25 from CoF, 28 from agi ring and 2 from adornment. That's 55. You will also get 22 from monk raid wide so that you have 77 now.Who can give you extra haste in group? Illusionist, dirge, inq, zerker or even mystical has slight haste buff from pet, not to say troub. See, don't tell me that you didn't group with one or two of them in raid. Even casual bruiser can hit 110 haste in raid most time, stop using haste as excuse if you have problem on dps.The diminishing return of haste is too ridiculous. It needs to be linear. Otherwise, monk CAs need boost comparing to bruiser. </blockquote>I was refering to DPS cap on bruiser, not haste cap. Ive been talking about them removing the our DPS mod for +CA damage.

[Couching]

It's also very easy to get 100+ dps in raids.You can get 20 from adornments. 28 from str ring. That's 48 total.You can get another 14 dps proc from cloak RZ. That's 62 total.Also, 8 dps from a legendary quest earring. That's 70 total for casual bruiser.If you are high end bruiser, you can get another 9 dps from wuoshi earring, 7 dps on belt, 5 dps on boots from avatars. That's 91 self dps buff for high end bruiser. Not to say 2 dps buff proc from weapons, high end bruisers can get over 130+ dps with self proc/gears.In raid, you can get dps buff from zerker, inq, dirge and coercer. As long as you are grouped with them, it's not a problem for dps buff. All in all, +90 CA is better for raid wide dps than 25 dps. 25dps is useless for most melee in raid.There is really no point to complain for changing 25 dps to +90 CA no matter you are hardcore or casual bruiser.

[Mordain]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's also very easy to get 100+ dps in raids.You can get 20 from adornments. 28 from str ring. That's 48 total.You can get another 14 dps proc from cloak RZ. That's 62 total.Also, 8 dps from a legendary quest earring. That's 70 total for casual bruiser.If you are high end bruiser, you can get another 9 dps from wuoshi earring, 7 dps on belt, 5 dps on boots from avatars. That's 91 self dps buff for high end bruiser. Not to say 2 dps buff proc from weapons, high end bruisers can get over 130+ dps with self proc/gears.In raid, you can get dps buff from zerker, inq, dirge and coercer. As long as you are grouped with them, it's not a problem for dps buff. All in all, +90 CA is better for raid wide dps than 25 dps. 25dps is useless for most melee in raid.There is really no point to complain for changing 25 dps to +90 CA no matter you are hardcore or casual bruiser.</blockquote>Im just wondering how a casual bruiser is suppose to spend over 20pp in adornments to reach that level. As i do agree you can make up for it with money, hell alot can be made up with money...Again, most bruisers playing now or starting off now cant afford dps adorments..and im guessing you refering to the 10DPS adornments for your range and neck? which easily go for anywhere from 8-10pp each. On top of that, if a causal bruiser does obtain those adornments, would it be wise to adorn treasured or mastercrafted armor? To me, thats silly, but whatever, if you have access to mats to make it or can make it yourself, thats fine.You acting like every single bruiser has money to burn to make up for something that was changed by sony....thats not the case. Ive said it before and will say it again, this only really helped a very small percentage of bruisers, the bruisers who are already decked out in gear where they have reached their DPS caps.Also, not saying that we completely [Removed for Content], we can burst up damage to crazy amounts with the use of Dev fist, im just saying that now to do real damage, we have to relay on something that is our downfall, which is waiting for our combat arts to refresh. Now if the mob you killing doesnt die from using all your combat arts, you at the mercy of the timer to finish him off.

[Couching]

It's funny. You said you have problem to cap dps in raid. I told you it's easy with example. Then you told me you have no money to buy adornments.Fine, then you don't deserve to cap your dps mod in raid. Some day, when you have money, you can cap your dps mod in raid.It's called progression.

[Aull]

Mordain, you are the one person that I really feel has the same beliefs on the bruiser class as I do. I can agree with you on 95% of all that you have posted. Thank you for being able to place your thoughts into words! This makes me feel better and appreciate your insight. Oh btw I thought I would go and purchase a dps adornment........I couldn't afford it.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mordain, you are the one person that I really feel has the same beliefs on the bruiser class as I do. I can agree with you on 95% of all that you have posted. Thank you for being able to place your thoughts into words! This makes me feel better and appreciate your insight. Oh btw I thought I would go and purchase a dps adornment........I couldn't afford it.</blockquote><p>Don't buy unless you've got money to burn. Make friends with a transmuter instead and feed him your drops in exchange for mats. Then contract a tradeskiller that makes the adornment you want. In that manner, you can often get your adornments done for fuel cost plus a small tip.</p><p><a href="http://kanga.h0b0.net/adornments/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Adornments</a></p>

[Aull]

Thank you for the advice Sapphirius! I really appreciate you taking the time to give me this advice. Just to make it known I really appreciate everyone here on the forums for there time and knowledge. I can see the point in what most most of you post about bruisers anyways. I just hate it when I see people getting bruised for their opinion or experience, even if it doesn't make sense.

[Sapphirius]

<p>NP, hun. <i>Never</i> buy your adornments unless you have no other options. It's a good way to go broke fast. Mine were all made for me through crafting contacts.</p><p>As for the rest of the debate? <shrugs> Personally, I think bruisers and monks are well balanced in comparison with each other. They each have their own strengths and weaknesses and one will shine more in area than in another. Most of the points being made are that ideal raid group set ups that <i>don't</i> waste abilities are easier to provide for bruisers than they are for monks, therefore, bruisers will generally parse higher than monks who are typically (as another monk pointed out) stuck in the caster group with no dirge, coercer, or inquis.</p><p>It doesn't mean that either of the classes are broken. It certainly doesn't mean that the class you're upset with isn't worth playing. Change happens. You either roll with the punches (pardon the bad pun), or you get rolled and give up. I prefer to roll with the punches... most times.</p>

[Wy]

Hard to heal bruisers? Bruisers with problems outide of raiding? What the hell is everyone talking about? I run around with a fury my level and short of epics we think we're bloody invincible half the time as long as we don't start chasing things ridiculously over our level. I can understand the 'epics ignore avoidance QQ!' business, that's just heesy and unfair in my opinion, but what's all this other crap about? =/

[Novusod]

<cite>Wyxt wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hard to heal bruisers? Bruisers with problems outide of raiding? What the hell is everyone talking about? I run around with a fury my level and short of epics we think we're bloody invincible half the time as long as we don't start chasing things ridiculously over our level. I can understand the 'epics ignore avoidance QQ!' business, that's just heesy and unfair in my opinion, but what's all this other crap about? =/ </blockquote>You are a level 45 bruiser. Get to level 70 and say you are invincible.

[Timaarit]

<cite>Wyxt wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hard to heal bruisers? Bruisers with problems outide of raiding? What the hell is everyone talking about? I run around with a fury my level and short of epics we think we're bloody invincible half the time as long as we don't start chasing things ridiculously over our level. I can understand the 'epics ignore avoidance QQ!' business, that's just heesy and unfair in my opinion, but what's all this other crap about? =/ </blockquote>There is no other crap, this is ALL about epics. So go to level to 70 and try to get to tank a raid (or even into one as a bruiser). Then you will know what this is all about.

[ChillHard]

<p>I understand about the epic avoidance it frustrates me especially with how much avoidance a guardian can get in the freakin buckler line in raid...that needs to be changed however it is not impossible to tank as a monk (atleast) I off tank all the time on our raids usually on garnder or grove beast in EH yes these aren't the hardest hitting mobs but i am usefull in my raids, bruisers were way once way overpowered compared to monks but now it has slowly equaled out in my opinion and this has resulted to this orginal forum topic. However i am pretty good geared pretty much all eof gear minus avatar loot, with a dirge and 2 healers no matter what class i can tank pretty easily on most mobs in raids. When i am doing dps i average around 1800 - 2200 with a dirge or agitate and (constant above 2k with coercer and dirge), get above 2k when i crane flock. A tip for those of you who are wis line speced, crane flock + dev fist negates the bad affects of the stun with a constant flow of dps afterwards....It all depends if your raid leader understands your needs in comparison to other dps classes or tanking vice versa. There are some changes that still need to be done but like someone else said, i'll roll with the punches and hope for the best eventually hehe.</p><p>Reefandar <Archon></p><p>70 Monk Crushbone</p>

[Wy]

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wyxt wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hard to heal bruisers? Bruisers with problems outide of raiding? What the hell is everyone talking about? I run around with a fury my level and short of epics we think we're bloody invincible half the time as long as we don't start chasing things ridiculously over our level. I can understand the 'epics ignore avoidance QQ!' business, that's just heesy and unfair in my opinion, but what's all this other crap about? =/ </blockquote>There is no other crap, this is ALL about epics. So go to level to 70 and try to get to tank a raid (or even into one as a bruiser). Then you will know what this is all about.</blockquote>Point, but I did say "I can understand epics ignoring avoidance," so. Anyway, I see a lot of QQ about 'poor' bruisers vs 'well-spent plat-using' bruisers. Isn't that kinda natural? I mean, if you have money, you get the best stuff, you end up with the best character (if not the best 'skill.' ). Using poverty as an excuse for why your character doesn't pwn isn't really a legit reason. *frowns* It was the same way in WoW, and WoW's not even as 'hardcore' as EQ2. That's just basic MMORPG economics/strategy right there. Edit: Would like to note I spend way too much time ranting at my level 70 bruiser guild leader.

[Timaarit]

The thing is that no amount of plat will make a bruiser or a brawler any more viable in raids. The only thing why anyone would take a brawler on a raid is now the group buffs and the avoidance buff. With the latter being more important, only one brawler is viable in a raid. And you can accomplish this easily. The plat you spend after it wont make the brawler any better. Sure it will give some more DPS but not even remotely close enough to make a difference.Also every other class can do the same, spend plat to improve that is.

[Uumuuanu]

<p>Huh plat what.  Huh masted out what?  Huh other classes what?</p><p>Focus people (its that thing that is sooo hard to get up on tanks and obviously harder to level in this forum).</p><p>Fact - Brawlers are still in the fighter achetype which is supposed to be where tanks come from.</p><p>Fact - Brawlers of all types tank well in heroic instances.</p><p>Fact - Brawlers of all types are great at soloing.</p><p>Fact - Brawlers of the extinctly rare (can you be extinct and rare?) can tank epic mobs.</p><p>Fact - Plate tanks tank all type of heroic instances well. </p><p>Fact - Plate tanks are slow to solo (other then crusaders and even then no where near as fast as brawlers)</p><p>Fact - Plate tanks can tank epics well, in many cases even crappy equiped tanks can tank epics.</p><p>Fact - The only thing missing with brawlers of all types is our ability to tank epics well despite our equipment.</p><p>Fact -  That is the ONLY thing that needs changed for brawlers.</p><p>Fact - This thread can be locked at any time, similarly to the other bruisers suck threads.</p>

[Sapphirius]

<p>I think the point trying to be conveyed is that just about everything a bruiser or monk can do <i>another class</i> can do better... with the exception of feign death. This was actually remarked upon by a raid leader I know who refuses to take a bruiser or monk on raids. DPS? If the goal was just damage, then he'd place a sorcerer or a predator in that slot. Tanking? If the goal was tanking or offtanking, he'd place a warrior in that slot. Healing? ( <crakcs up laughing> ) Ummm... Not going there. Buffs? There are other classes that provide similar and/or equally beneficial buffs on top of either massive healing, massive DPS, or actual mitigation tanking ability as opposed to avoidance tanking.</p><p>Crusaders and brawlers are hybrids, and as such, we suffer from the "jack of all trades and master of none" syndrome. Just about anything that we can do, someone else can do better than us, <i>but</i> the trade off is that we <i>can</i> do all of these things.</p><p>On the flip side of the coin, another raid leader I know is still looking for a DPS-specced brawler and very much dislikes going on a raid without one. His views are, "Yeah, another class can do it better, but how many classes do you know can do all of that together? Give me one monk or bruiser who can do all of this, and then I'll put the other classes in the remaining slots."</p>

[Rast]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think the point trying to be conveyed is that just about everything a bruiser or monk can do <i>another class</i> can do better... with the exception of feign death. This was actually remarked upon by a raid leader I know who refuses to take a bruiser or monk on raids. DPS? If the goal was just damage, then he'd place a sorcerer or a predator in that slot. Tanking? If the goal was tanking or offtanking, he'd place a warrior in that slot. Healing? ( <crakcs up laughing> ) Ummm... Not going there. Buffs? There are other classes that provide similar and/or equally beneficial buffs on top of either massive healing, massive DPS, or actual mitigation tanking ability as opposed to avoidance tanking.</p><p>Crusaders and brawlers are hybrids, and as such, we suffer from the "jack of all trades and master of none" syndrome. Just about anything that we can do, someone else can do better than us, <i>but</i> the trade off is that we <i>can</i> do all of these things.</p><p>On the flip side of the coin, another raid leader I know is still looking for a DPS-specced brawler and very much dislikes going on a raid without one. His views are, "Yeah, another class can do it better, but how many classes do you know can do all of that together? Give me one monk or bruiser who can do all of this, and then I'll put the other classes in the remaining slots."</p></blockquote><p>Yah sapphy, but that one raid leader is also one who has used 2 paladin tanks too <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I made a suggestion on EQ2 flames regarding this.  The solution is actually quite simple, make deflection = mitigation and not avoidance.  This would give brawlers the mitigation they need to tank without completely breaking the solo game, though why brawlers want to get into the already impossibly crowded tank niche is beyond me.  It makes MUCH more sense to push to go to the DPS role that has more openings for any given raid, but eh...  if that is what you want, that is how you need to get there.</p><p>They will not 'fix' avoidance tanking and even if they did, you'd still have issues tanking epic mobs due to your survivablity rating (health / (1-mitigation%)</p>

[Sapphirius]

I don't want to tank raids. Period. I would, however, like to be a more viable option for raids. If it can't be through DPS because I am technically a tank, then I wouldn't mind it through increased utility.

[Wy]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't want to tank raids. Period. I would, however, like to be a more viable option for raids. If it can't be through DPS because I am technically a tank, then I wouldn't mind it through increased utility.</blockquote>I ain't 70 yet, but I'm hella concerned that this character will be worth my time when I hit 70 and want to see more endgame, so seconded. ._.

[PaganSaint]

Low Teir 2 DPS, High Teir 2 Burst DPS, Increases CA damage of the entire raid, Increases Taunt/Detaunt effectiveness of the entire raid, FD Pulling, and Drag.So what exactly is a bruiser lacking after LU38?Uncontested avoidance is the only thing I can think of at the moment.And even that is not as important as it was at the beginning of the expansion.

[Sapphirius]

Oh, brother. Ya know, I'mma just step out of this before you and Couching get into it again.

[Couching]

Bah, I am not involved in this thread. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[runamonk]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Low Teir 2 DPS, High Teir 2 Burst DPS, Increases CA damage of the entire raid, Increases Taunt/Detaunt effectiveness of the entire raid, FD Pulling, and Drag.So what exactly is a bruiser lacking after LU38?Uncontested avoidance is the only thing I can think of at the moment.And even that is not as important as it was at the beginning of the expansion.</blockquote>That's true, those are some of the things we can bring to a raid. Although if there is already multiple brawlers on the raid, then someone is loosing out because none of buffs stack with each other and some other classes can override our buffs. Honestly the only real buff we bring to a raid is our new version of Rabid Cry, which doesn't stack with other bruisers, so really you only need a single bruiser on a raid. In comparison to the number of Wizards, Coercers and Necros you could use on a raid for DPS we're just not needed. We have pretty good burst DPS. Depending on how groups are setup we can do ok dps, but if all groups are properly formed and include the right classes our DPS does not come close to other tanks who are equipped in gear that is of the same tier.Our tanking raidwise is a total joke, which is totally fine with me. I have no problem getting one shotted by level 75 mobs but it would be nice to be able to really pump out some damage. If I'm going to tank like a caster, I want to do damage like a caster. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />With all the places my guild raids, there are only a couple of places that it's really handy to have a brawler around and I'm one of 3 in our guild. I do subpar DPS in comparison to other classes, if I wanted to be useless I would have created a dirge hee hee j/k. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I would be happy be able to switch between stances and actually get a significant change, either dps oriented or tanking. One or the other but this middle of the road that brawlers are in right now isn't really useful.

[Igu]

Well, I have a 70 monk and I now call him the carpenter.My 59 Mystic will be 65 for Kunark.Without major help, Brawlers are pretty much done. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Wy]

<cite>Igu wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, I have a 70 monk and I now call him the carpenter.My 59 Mystic will be 65 for Kunark.Without major help, Brawlers are pretty much done. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Ugh, I'm gonna have to tell my girlfriend we need to roll alts tomorrow -_-

[Sapphirius]

Nah, I wouldn't go to that extreme. Brawlers are far from "done."

[liveja]

<cite>runamonk wrote:</cite><blockquote>so really you only need a single bruiser on a raid.</blockquote><p>You only need 1 Swashy, & IMHO, 2 is a crowd.</p><p>This isn't to say Bruisers don't need some loving. It's to say you're not the only class of which multiples aren't necessary.</p>

[Sapphirius]

Yet, most raid leaders would prefer two swashies over two bruisers because swashies generally parse higher. Your skills may not stack or may be redundant, but you still do more damage and are therefore considered more valuable than bringing along a second bruiser/monk.

[Siclone]

<p >What you have here is 6 to 8 people getting together and realizing that the “sqeeky wheel” gets the grease so every day they post day after day that Bruisers suck, and know that sooner or later SOE will react and make them even more and more over powered.</p> <p > And its working………..</p> <p > They can tank just fine, maybe not the high end epics but kos epics and under they do a great job</p> <p > They are tier 1 dps,,, I show testimony on this, and seen it first hand after that last gu, it's  pretty clear that’s the case</p> <p > They solo better then anyone,,,,,</p> <p > So the only thing left is,,,,,to be able to take like a guardian and heal like a templer.</p> <p > I am sure they will not stop until they get that<span>  </span></p>

[Timaarit]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>What you have here is 6 to 8 people </p></blockquote>No, what you have here is 1 person (an assasin?) trolling.

[tt66]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>What you have here is 6 to 8 people getting together and realizing that the “sqeeky wheel” gets the grease so every day they post day after day that Bruisers suck, and know that sooner or later SOE will react and make them even more and more over powered.</p> <p> And its working………..</p> <p> They can tank just fine, maybe not the high end epics but kos epics and under they do a great job</p> <p> They are tier 1 dps,,, I show testimony on this, and seen it first hand after that last gu, it's  pretty clear that’s the case</p> <p> They solo better then anyone,,,,,</p> <p> So the only thing left is,,,,,to be able to take like a guardian and heal like a templer.</p> <p> I am sure they will not stop until they get that<span>  </span></p> </blockquote>Ooooh! It's Siclone again! Hello again Siclone!Such a shame that your last opus "Bruisers are horribly overpowered and game-breaking" got closed down by the mods. But I'm glad to see that it hasn't stopped you.Did you ever mention why it is you hate brawlers so much? Did a monk steal your lunch money as a child? By the way, I missed your testimony that bruisers are tier 1 dps, care to provide a link? I could do with a laugh. Last I heard it was your imaginary bruiser friend topping the parse, so I didn't know you'd provided an actual argument!

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>They are tier 1 dps,,, I show testimony on this, and seen it first hand after that last gu, it's  pretty clear that’s the case</blockquote><cracks up laughing> Thanks for that. Seeing as I'm about to spend all day with my son and his flu, I need all the laughs I can get. Sorry, but if a bruiser is outparsing you, then you've got bigger problems than him being overpowered. Work on your gear and skills a bit there, hun.

[Rast]

hmmm, I guess I should tell my wife that it is pointless for her to play her monk so well, since she obvioulsy has no point to being played <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>hmmm, I guess I should tell my wife that it is pointless for her to play her monk so well, since she obvioulsy has no point to being played <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>You do that to Cheep, and I'mma hunt you down and slap you!I know where you play. Don't think I won't do it. <grins wickedly>

[Siclone]

no I love Brawlers.  they are a great class.What I hate is dishonesty.every one of you whining brawlers know that brawlers are over powered, how could you play the game more then a couple of weeks and not see that.but you continue to complain on and on and on.  I like to play a fair game where all the classes are balanced and have there thing, I dont like the fact there are a couple of classes that just make game play unfair for the rest of us.I am just calling it the way it is.  You want to attack me, and say I hate brawlers, instead of address the points of the issue.fact and backed up---Brawlers are now tier 1 dpsbralwers are the best solo classesbralwers are a soild tankthats way overpowered, sorry guys, and you know it.  so attack me, for saying the truth all ya want

[runamonk]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>runamonk wrote:</cite><blockquote>so really you only need a single bruiser on a raid.</blockquote><p>You only need 1 Swashy, & IMHO, 2 is a crowd.</p><p>This isn't to say Bruisers don't need some loving. It's to say you're not the only class of which multiples aren't necessary.</p></blockquote>Oh I agree 100%. I don't think SOE has finished getting all the kinks worked out for raiding and how all the classes can benefit a raid. I think they are working on it, it just seems like they're going really slow. It's moving in the right direction I think though.Since I really only use my bruiser for raiding at the moment, I've created another character to play in the off time. Still would be nice to have a really good use, at least for some raids hehe.

[runamonk]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>What you have here is 6 to 8 people getting together and realizing that the “sqeeky wheel” gets the grease so every day they post day after day that Bruisers suck, and know that sooner or later SOE will react and make them even more and more over powered.</p> <p> And its working………..</p> <p> They can tank just fine, maybe not the high end epics but kos epics and under they do a great job</p> <p> They are tier 1 dps,,, I show testimony on this, and seen it first hand after that last gu, it's  pretty clear that’s the case</p> <p> They solo better then anyone,,,,,</p> <p> So the only thing left is,,,,,to be able to take like a guardian and heal like a templer.</p> <p> I am sure they will not stop until they get that<span>  </span></p> </blockquote>Ooooh! It's Siclone again! Hello again Siclone!Such a shame that your last opus "Bruisers are horribly overpowered and game-breaking" got closed down by the mods. But I'm glad to see that it hasn't stopped you.Did you ever mention why it is you hate brawlers so much? Did a monk steal your lunch money as a child? By the way, I missed your testimony that bruisers are tier 1 dps, care to provide a link? I could do with a laugh. Last I heard it was your imaginary bruiser friend topping the parse, so I didn't know you'd provided an actual argument!</blockquote>Whenever I get the urge to feel a little sad because the zerkers and shadowknights in our raids are outparsing me on a consistent basis, I'll point them to this thread and that'll stop their laughing at me.Yeah Tier 1 DPS. I wish I had known that before, just think I could be out parsing all our wizards and assassins LOL.Seriously Siclone, you must be the most horrible Assassin in the game. Might want to upgrade to fabled gear and masters. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />Yeah it's really nice to be able to tank mobs from two expansions ago. YAY! I can tank in Courts too, but I don't think that's much of an accomplishment. I also don't need to group much, so being able to tank Heroics is a total non-yay for me. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><b><span style="color: #ffff00;">1.</span></b> fact and backed up---Brawlers are now tier 1 dps<b><span style="color: #ffff00;">2.</span></b> bralwers are the best solo classes<b><span style="color: #ffff00;">3.</span></b> bralwers are a soild tankthats way overpowered, sorry guys, and you know it.  </blockquote><p>1. You have not backs this claim up yet. Brawlers are not a top "tier 1" DPS class. Post the ZW for us and let us compare the gear on this mysterious bruiser you keep talking about to your own gear. I think your answers will be found on that comparison, but I thank you for the laugh anyway.</p><p>2. I don't think anyone at any point denied that brawlers are a good solo class. I wouldn't exactly call them the "best" solo class though. In fact, it has been stated that brawlers don't need improvements to solo or group play. They need it for raiding. Truth be told, I think monks are pretty darn close to where they should be. They're not there yet, but they're getting there, and that's an imporvement as to how they were right after LU 13.</p><p>3. There is still some debate on this issue as brawler tanking (for monks at least) is weakest with managing group aggro. I have to <i>hit</i> things to generate aggro, so to keep aggro on multiple targets, I have to dance them, which means switching targets constantly to whack on them a bit and keeping my eye on them to make sure other group members' AEs don't peel aggro off of me. I also have to make sure I have on-the-ball healers with me. One lucky hit that I don't avoid can nearly kill me, and if they aren't ready to heal through that spike damage, then I'm toast.</p><p>Most groups I join don't want monks for a tank, especially when they've got an actual plate tank with them. That right there should tell you something. Do I mind? Not in the slightest. I will tank, but I prefer to go offensive and lay the smack down on things.</p>

[liveja]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I hate is dishonesty.</blockquote>Irony for the win.

[Rast]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><b><span style="color: #ffff00;">1.</span></b> fact and backed up---Brawlers are now tier 1 dps<b><span style="color: #ffff00;">2.</span></b> bralwers are the best solo classes<b><span style="color: #ffff00;">3.</span></b> bralwers are a soild tankthats way overpowered, sorry guys, and you know it.  </blockquote><p>1. You have not backs this claim up yet. Brawlers are not a top "tier 1" DPS class. Post the ZW for us and let us compare the gear on this mysterious bruiser you keep talking about to your own gear. I think your answers will be found on that comparison, but I thank you for the laugh anyway.</p><p>2. I don't think anyone at any point denied that brawlers are a good solo class. I wouldn't exactly call them the "best" solo class though. In fact, it has been stated that brawlers don't need improvements to solo or group play. They need it for raiding. Truth be told, I think monks are pretty darn close to where they should be. They're not there yet, but they're getting there, and that's an imporvement as to how they were right after LU 13.</p><p>3. There is still some debate on this issue as brawler tanking (for monks at least) is weakest with managing group aggro. I have to <i>hit</i> things to generate aggro, so to keep aggro on multiple targets, I have to dance them, which means switching targets constantly to whack on them a bit and keeping my eye on them to make sure other group members' AEs don't peel aggro off of me. I also have to make sure I have on-the-ball healers with me. One lucky hit that I don't avoid can nearly kill me, and if they aren't ready to heal through that spike damage, then I'm toast.</p><p>Most groups I join don't want monks for a tank, especially when they've got an actual plate tank with them. That right there should tell you something. Do I mind? Not in the slightest. I will tank, but I prefer to go offensive and lay the smack down on things.</p></blockquote><p>as a pally, I LOVE monks in my group (sorry, not grouped with many brusiers, but I'm sure they'd be the same).  They are a beautiful amends target for group content in that they have some of the best ST agro generation in the game.  It plays well to my ability to manage group agro on my own (in group content) so as long as people are hitting the same mob as the monk, I am pretty comfortable that noone is going to peel agro from me.</p><p>For a raid...  well, that is a different story.  No offense sapphy (as I know you are a good player) but I'd prefer to have your warden than your monk on a raid.  Quite simply, they do not have enough of anything to bump another class who would be better suited for the position.  There are exceptions (traps and/or spawning certain mobs), but it holds true for the most part.</p><p>If a brawler is doing 2k an encounter, then the dps classes should be pushing 3k, end of story.</p><p>But that being said, I've seen paladins hit 2k while OTing mobs in raids, but what that doesn't tell you is that the dps classes were doing 3.0-3.5k+</p><p>Fighers are not a t1 dps placed class and if they are t1 in your raids, you really need to look at your dps classes as they are either slacking or they flat out suck.</p><p>btw:  I'd never do that to cheepers, she loves her monk too much <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[RustyB]

<p>+25 to dps mod  compared to the +90 to CA   the +90 to CA's comes out on top imo</p><p>I didn't bother reading all 9 pages of this  so not sure if this was brought up, but I'm not sure if you've noticed...  Since the change to Duel Wielding   I find we are putting out more auto attack damage then we were before the Brutality patch...  even the Fist of Bashing is up there in damage.</p><p>Yes it sucks that we lost a buff to say, but the upgrade to CA damage I believe is a suitable replacement and imo   did actually give bruisers a more viable place in raids.</p><p>I'm just shocked people still aren't complaining about the nerf we got on our backstab/stun   imo that was the greatest nerf of them all  next to  putting fear and mezz on same timer (like [Removed for Content])  lol</p>

[Siclone]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><b><span style="color: #ffff00;">1.</span></b> fact and backed up---Brawlers are now tier 1 dps<b><span style="color: #ffff00;">2.</span></b> bralwers are the best solo classes<b><span style="color: #ffff00;">3.</span></b> bralwers are a soild tankthats way overpowered, sorry guys, and you know it.  </blockquote><p>1. You have not backs this claim up yet. Brawlers are not a top "tier 1" DPS class. Post the ZW for us and let us compare the gear on this mysterious bruiser you keep talking about to your own gear. I think your answers will be found on that comparison, but I thank you for the laugh anyway.</p><span style="color: #ff0033;"><b><u>yes I have,,,here is testimonial from bruisers,,,,yeah i know they are all lying,,and I am lying when I say the brawlers in my raid are now teir 1...<a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/bruisers/10226-raid-dps.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.eq2flames.com/bruisers/1...6-raid-dps.html</a></u></b></span><p>2. I don't think anyone at any point denied that brawlers are a good solo class. I wouldn't exactly call them the "best" solo class though. In fact, it has been stated that brawlers don't need improvements to solo or group play. They need it for raiding. Truth be told, I think monks are pretty darn close to where they should be. They're not there yet, but they're getting there, and that's an imporvement as to how they were right after LU 13.</p><p>3. There is still some debate on this issue as brawler tanking (for monks at least) is weakest with managing group aggro. I have to <i>hit</i> things to generate aggro, so to keep aggro on multiple targets, I have to dance them, which means switching targets constantly to whack on them a bit and keeping my eye on them to make sure other group members' AEs don't peel aggro off of me. I also have to make sure I have on-the-ball healers with me. One lucky hit that I don't avoid can nearly kill me, and if they aren't ready to heal through that spike damage, then I'm toast.</p><p>Most groups I join don't want monks for a tank, especially when they've got an actual plate tank with them. That right there should tell you something. Do I mind? Not in the slightest. I will tank, but I prefer to go offensive and lay the smack down on things.</p></blockquote>

[Siclone]

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><b><span style="color: #ffff00;">1.</span></b> fact and backed up---Brawlers are now tier 1 dps<b><span style="color: #ffff00;">2.</span></b> bralwers are the best solo classes<b><span style="color: #ffff00;">3.</span></b> bralwers are a soild tankthats way overpowered, sorry guys, and you know it.  </blockquote><p>1. You have not backs this claim up yet. Brawlers are not a top "tier 1" DPS class. Post the ZW for us and let us compare the gear on this mysterious bruiser you keep talking about to your own gear. I think your answers will be found on that comparison, but I thank you for the laugh anyway.</p><p>2. I don't think anyone at any point denied that brawlers are a good solo class. I wouldn't exactly call them the "best" solo class though. In fact, it has been stated that brawlers don't need improvements to solo or group play. They need it for raiding. Truth be told, I think monks are pretty darn close to where they should be. They're not there yet, but they're getting there, and that's an imporvement as to how they were right after LU 13.</p><p>3. There is still some debate on this issue as brawler tanking (for monks at least) is weakest with managing group aggro. I have to <i>hit</i> things to generate aggro, so to keep aggro on multiple targets, I have to dance them, which means switching targets constantly to whack on them a bit and keeping my eye on them to make sure other group members' AEs don't peel aggro off of me. I also have to make sure I have on-the-ball healers with me. One lucky hit that I don't avoid can nearly kill me, and if they aren't ready to heal through that spike damage, then I'm toast.</p><p>Most groups I join don't want monks for a tank, especially when they've got an actual plate tank with them. That right there should tell you something. Do I mind? Not in the slightest. I will tank, but I prefer to go offensive and lay the smack down on things.</p></blockquote><p>as a pally, I LOVE monks in my group (sorry, not grouped with many brusiers, but I'm sure they'd be the same).  They are a beautiful amends target for group content in that they have some of the best ST agro generation in the game.  It plays well to my ability to manage group agro on my own (in group content) so as long as people are hitting the same mob as the monk, I am pretty comfortable that noone is going to peel agro from me.</p><p>For a raid...  well, that is a different story.  No offense sapphy (as I know you are a good player) but I'd prefer to have your warden than your monk on a raid.  Quite simply, they do not have enough of anything to bump another class who would be better suited for the position.  There are exceptions (traps and/or spawning certain mobs), but it holds true for the most part.</p><p>I<b><u>f a brawler is doing 2k an encounter, then the dps classes should be pushing 3k, end of story.</u></b></p><p>But that being said, I've seen paladins hit 2k while OTing mobs in raids, but what that doesn't tell you is that the dps classes were doing 3.0-3.5k+</p><p>Fighers are not a t1 dps placed class and if they are t1 in your raids, you really need to look at your dps classes as they are either slacking or they flat out suck.</p><p>btw:  I'd never do that to cheepers, she loves her monk too much <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></p></blockquote>thats flat out wrong, show me a parse or someone calming over 3k zw,,,,,,,,,you cant can you,,,of course not, cause your making stuff up and dont know what your talking about there was a post on the assassin board not to long ago, with parse, and there were tons,,pages of them,,,and the highest was 2.4? somewhere around there,,,,,you cant just make facts up, you have to have some evidence

[Cadori Seraphim]

Ut ohs! Watch out, <span class="postdetails"><span class="genmed"><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/user/profile.m?user_id=304771" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><b><span style="color: #ff6600;">Amalthea</span></b></a> is on a rampage! Forum lock soon <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></span>

[Siclone]

well heck screw it,,,,give them a heal and rez to ,,,who cares,,,,

[Rast]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><b><span style="color: #ffff00;">1.</span></b> fact and backed up---Brawlers are now tier 1 dps<b><span style="color: #ffff00;">2.</span></b> bralwers are the best solo classes<b><span style="color: #ffff00;">3.</span></b> bralwers are a soild tankthats way overpowered, sorry guys, and you know it.  </blockquote><p>1. You have not backs this claim up yet. Brawlers are not a top "tier 1" DPS class. Post the ZW for us and let us compare the gear on this mysterious bruiser you keep talking about to your own gear. I think your answers will be found on that comparison, but I thank you for the laugh anyway.</p><p>2. I don't think anyone at any point denied that brawlers are a good solo class. I wouldn't exactly call them the "best" solo class though. In fact, it has been stated that brawlers don't need improvements to solo or group play. They need it for raiding. Truth be told, I think monks are pretty darn close to where they should be. They're not there yet, but they're getting there, and that's an imporvement as to how they were right after LU 13.</p><p>3. There is still some debate on this issue as brawler tanking (for monks at least) is weakest with managing group aggro. I have to <i>hit</i> things to generate aggro, so to keep aggro on multiple targets, I have to dance them, which means switching targets constantly to whack on them a bit and keeping my eye on them to make sure other group members' AEs don't peel aggro off of me. I also have to make sure I have on-the-ball healers with me. One lucky hit that I don't avoid can nearly kill me, and if they aren't ready to heal through that spike damage, then I'm toast.</p><p>Most groups I join don't want monks for a tank, especially when they've got an actual plate tank with them. That right there should tell you something. Do I mind? Not in the slightest. I will tank, but I prefer to go offensive and lay the smack down on things.</p></blockquote><p>as a pally, I LOVE monks in my group (sorry, not grouped with many brusiers, but I'm sure they'd be the same).  They are a beautiful amends target for group content in that they have some of the best ST agro generation in the game.  It plays well to my ability to manage group agro on my own (in group content) so as long as people are hitting the same mob as the monk, I am pretty comfortable that noone is going to peel agro from me.</p><p>For a raid...  well, that is a different story.  No offense sapphy (as I know you are a good player) but I'd prefer to have your warden than your monk on a raid.  Quite simply, they do not have enough of anything to bump another class who would be better suited for the position.  There are exceptions (traps and/or spawning certain mobs), but it holds true for the most part.</p><p>I<b><u>f a brawler is doing 2k an encounter, then the dps classes should be pushing 3k, end of story.</u></b></p><p>But that being said, I've seen paladins hit 2k while OTing mobs in raids, but what that doesn't tell you is that the dps classes were doing 3.0-3.5k+</p><p>Fighers are not a t1 dps placed class and if they are t1 in your raids, you really need to look at your dps classes as they are either slacking or they flat out suck.</p><p>btw:  I'd never do that to cheepers, she loves her monk too much <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />" /></p></blockquote>thats flat out wrong, show me a parse or someone calming over 3k zw,,,,,,,,,you cant can you,,,of course not, cause your making stuff up and dont know what your talking about there was a post on the assassin board not to long ago, with parse, and there were tons,,pages of them,,,and the highest was 2.4? somewhere around there,,,,,you cant just make facts up, you have to have some evidence</blockquote><p>While I'll admit, I've never seen a 3.5k+ zw, I have heard of some of the high end raid guilds doing so.  But then again, I've never seen a 2k brusier parse where the dps toons weren't hitting 3k+ either.  And yes, I have seen some fights where fighers have hit 2k, Hell, in my junk gear, I've hit 1.5k on some fights and I'm a bloody paladin.  But to answer your question, yes, I have seen fights were assassins/rangers have hit the 3k dps for the fight, I've seen warlocks hit for nearly 4k.</p><p>But seriously dude, if that brusier is hitting for 2k, he should have some hellish gear/outside buffs as that is the only way he's getting there.  Period.  An assassin in similiar quality gear should hit for far more unless the assassin flat out sucks.</p>

[liveja]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ff0033;"><b><u>yes I have,,,here is testimonial from bruisers,,,,yeah i know they are all lying,,and I am lying when I say the brawlers in my raid are now teir 1...<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/bruisers/10226-raid-dps.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/bruisers/1...6-raid-dps.html</a></u></b></span></blockquote>You might want to read that thread a little more closely.

[Timaarit]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>no I love Brawlers.  they are a great class.What I hate is dishonesty.every one of you whining brawlers know that brawlers are over powered, how could you play the game more then a couple of weeks and not see that.but you continue to complain on and on and on.  I like to play a fair game where all the classes are balanced and have there thing, I dont like the fact there are a couple of classes that just make game play unfair for the rest of us.I am just calling it the way it is.  You want to attack me, and say I hate brawlers, instead of address the points of the issue.fact and backed up---Brawlers are now tier 1 dps</blockquote>Hmm, 2nd line is in direct contradiction with the last lines statement. Claim that brawlers are now t1 DPS is both, a lie and totally unproven.2,5k is t3 DPS in current combat system. Assasin who knows his class can do 3,5k. Proven fact. If some assasins cant, well then they need to learn how to play or get better than legendary gear.

[Timaarit]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>thats flat out wrong, show me a parse or someone calming over 3k zw,,,,,,,,,you cant can you,,,of course not, cause your making stuff up and dont know what your talking about there was a post on the assassin board not to long ago, with parse, and there were tons,,pages of them,,,and the highest was 2.4? somewhere around there,,,,,you cant just make facts up, you have to have some evidence</blockquote>Last time I saw 3k+ ZW was by my guilds swashy. Assasin was at 2,2k and closest brawler at 1,7k from that raid. Wizards (2) were at 2,4k.So you actually have 0 facts to back you up and yet you claim you dislike dishonesty <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Timaarit]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ff0033;"><b><u>yes I have,,,here is testimonial from bruisers,,,,yeah i know they are all lying,,and I am lying when I say the brawlers in my raid are now teir 1...<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/bruisers/10226-raid-dps.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/bruisers/1...6-raid-dps.html</a></u></b></span></blockquote>You might want to read that thread a little more closely.</blockquote>That would mean shattering of his illusions. Not going to happen.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>For a raid...  well, that is a different story.  No offense sapphy (as I know you are a good player) but I'd prefer to have your warden than your monk on a raid.  Quite simply, they do not have enough of anything to bump another class who would be better suited for the position.  There are exceptions (traps and/or spawning certain mobs), but it holds true for the most part.</p></blockquote>No offense taken. Why do you think I officially retired my warden? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><b><span style="color: #ffff00;">1.</span></b> fact and backed up---Brawlers are now tier 1 dps<b><span style="color: #ffff00;">2.</span></b> bralwers are the best solo classes<b><span style="color: #ffff00;">3.</span></b> bralwers are a soild tankthats way overpowered, sorry guys, and you know it.  </blockquote><p>1. You have not backs this claim up yet. Brawlers are not a top "tier 1" DPS class. Post the ZW for us and let us compare the gear on this mysterious bruiser you keep talking about to your own gear. I think your answers will be found on that comparison, but I thank you for the laugh anyway.</p><span style="color: #ff0033;"><b><u>yes I have,,,here is testimonial from bruisers,,,,yeah i know they are all lying,,and I am lying when I say the brawlers in my raid are now teir 1...<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/bruisers/10226-raid-dps.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/bruisers/1...6-raid-dps.html</a></u></b></span></blockquote></blockquote>No one in that post says bruisers do tier 1 dps, unless you are saying that 2k dps is tier 1....? DPS changes depending on buffs and the raid set up. However, any raid where  a bruiser can parse 2k ZW an assassin with comparable gear and masters can parse 2.5-3.5k dependin on how leet they are.  How will someone with weaker Combat Arts, no dps buffs, and no poisons do the same tier damage if given the same group buffs?  It is not possible. 

[tt66]

That thread actually rather neatly disproves your theories Siclone, you might want to reread it.Although I'm pretty certain that you knew that already. Your continued posting of such unsubstantiated twaddle leads me to suspect that you're just deliberately trolling now. If you had any salient point to make you would have made it, complete with actual evidence, many threads ago. Instead you just jump around to any location where end-game brawlers are attempting to get themselves fixed and spew idiocy until the whole thing degenerates. And when we try again, you just repeat the cycle. Your posts either contain either gross misinformation, links to data that does not support your theory, or references to non-attributable sources such as your "raiding bruiser friend". You bring nothing to the discussions you join except strife.When all else fails, you create topics with blatantly trollish subjects, to further muddy the waters and sabotage any meaningful dialog that brawlers seek to engender. You should be ashamed of yourself sir.

[Aull]

This all reminds me of the song "man in the box" by AIC. Sorry just had to post that for the bruisers.

[FallenFeather]

<p> Thanks all for some great reading, nothing like browsing the forums while at work. Let me just add, bruisers pwn monks any day!!</p><p> There's always some changes to the classes, just have to try adept by it, I usualy play my class by gut and not so often by numbers and I think ppl  sometime so eagerly expect a nerf that they start whining about it a.s.a.P. on the forums, well great way to boost your post numbers, but personaly I find it best to maybe give it some time and get used to the changes, see if I can move things around to my advantage then start whining heh...</p><p> If there is something that should be changed on bruisers in general, it should be their tanking abilities in groups. Now from own experience I've had some realy tricky times tanking in groups due to well played  DPS classes even when  on an even base in gear and skills, the gap between maintaining a decent aggro for bruiser and a guardians, s'like night and day.. played a bit of both to their 70s. Give us brawlers something like moderate and that would do the trick for groups and make us more interesting for raids. </p><p> Also the "bruiser AA tree" is dead boring, not so much to vary by <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></p><p> And yes I know my english make me sound like and an idiot, kinda shelfed my bruiser too to try out some healing.. so maybe wrong of me to start posting here, but well there I said it.</p>

[Kaoru]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><b><span style="color: #ffff00;">1.</span></b> fact and backed up---Brawlers are now tier 1 dps<b><span style="color: #ffff00;">2.</span></b> bralwers are the best solo classes<b><span style="color: #ffff00;">3.</span></b> bralwers are a soild tankthats way overpowered, sorry guys, and you know it.  </blockquote><p>1. You have not backs this claim up yet. Brawlers are not a top "tier 1" DPS class. Post the ZW for us and let us compare the gear on this mysterious bruiser you keep talking about to your own gear. I think your answers will be found on that comparison, but I thank you for the laugh anyway.</p><span style="color: #ff0033;"><b><u>yes I have,,,here is testimonial from bruisers,,,,yeah i know they are all lying,,and I am lying when I say the brawlers in my raid are now teir 1...<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/bruisers/10226-raid-dps.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/bruisers/1...6-raid-dps.html</a></u></b></span><p>2. I don't think anyone at any point denied that brawlers are a good solo class. I wouldn't exactly call them the "best" solo class though. In fact, it has been stated that brawlers don't need improvements to solo or group play. They need it for raiding. Truth be told, I think monks are pretty darn close to where they should be. They're not there yet, but they're getting there, and that's an imporvement as to how they were right after LU 13.</p><p>3. There is still some debate on this issue as brawler tanking (for monks at least) is weakest with managing group aggro. I have to <i>hit</i> things to generate aggro, so to keep aggro on multiple targets, I have to dance them, which means switching targets constantly to whack on them a bit and keeping my eye on them to make sure other group members' AEs don't peel aggro off of me. I also have to make sure I have on-the-ball healers with me. One lucky hit that I don't avoid can nearly kill me, and if they aren't ready to heal through that spike damage, then I'm toast.</p><p>Most groups I join don't want monks for a tank, especially when they've got an actual plate tank with them. That right there should tell you something. Do I mind? Not in the slightest. I will tank, but I prefer to go offensive and lay the smack down on things.</p></blockquote></blockquote>1. Not even close. If you reread the thread you will notice most posters are claiming 1.6-2k zw. This is hardly t1 dps, unless your talking about t6 raids. The bruiser who posted about doing 3k obviously meant single encounter dps, which is possible in a high end guild and depending on the length of the fight. This doesn't really mean much since there are parses of zerkers doing 5k on single encounters. Also you can't use the term brawlers since there is a decent gap in dps between monks and bruisers. 2. The best solo class? nope. The fastest solo class, maybe. The best at farming shinies? absolutely. If you think we are the best I suggest you watch a sk in action, they can solo encounters most could only dream of, it just takes them longer. And lets not forget about all the pajama clad casters that are all the rage with the anon plat farmers.3. In groups yea we are solid, but hey so are most scouts. Epic content (and I'm talking EOF stuff here since KOS in not the current expansion and can be tanked by casters) is where we need help.I can see (by your recently closed thread) that you were recently outparsed by a bruiser zw, and as an assassin you have every right to be upset...........with yourself for letting that happen.If you are upset about what you appear is an imbalance in the game then I suggest you quit now. The classes as they are will never be perfectly balanced nor will every player be completely content with things as they are. We all have ideas of how things should be, and if this is the case feel free to use the petition or feedback commands at your disposal. But  there is no reason to come here and spout lies about other classes because you failed to live up to your potential as an assassin. This thread was originally about a group buff change, and you have had absolutely nothing relevant to add to the discussion whatsoever. One can only guess by the tone of your recent posts in this thread  that you are trying to derail this one and get it closed like the one you started was, for this (as tt66 put it) you should be ashamed of yourself.

[Dorieon]

/agree with Kaoru

[Siclone]

I think a proc ward would be good, a complete boost,,,not only will it allow you to group ward, but allow you to tank better and be more desirablealso, change devastation fist to 1 percent damage on epics, so a raid mob with 3 million hp, you could one shot them for 30K.  thats what we need, group ward procs and 30 k hits say on a 3 min timer ((lol at all you that say 2k is not tier one!! wink wink nod nod,,,ok got it, good tact))

[Rast]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think a proc ward would be good, a complete boost,,,not only will it allow you to group ward, but allow you to tank better and be more desirablealso, change devastation fist to 1 percent damage on epics, so a raid mob with 3 million hp, you could one shot them for 30K.  thats what we need, group ward procs and 30 k hits say on a 3 min timer ((lol at all you that say 2k is not tier one!! wink wink nod nod,,,ok got it, good tact))</blockquote><p>If your raid group is doing 20k dps, then yes it is, if your raid force is doing 30-35k dps (which many of the top end raid group claim they do and I've no reason to doubt them), then no.  It is t2 dps.</p><p>I'm just doubting the validity of your 'bruiser' friend as he is either in absolutely top end gear with the right group set up, then yes, he probably could get there.  I've seen paladins who hit for 1800-2k zone wide too.</p><p>The other point is, how in the hell can a class that has worse CAs, no poison use and lower melee damage beat an adequately played assassin who has far superior CAs, better survivablity in jousting, poisons, etc?  That is what doesn't seem right.  The point is, if you take 2 equally played toons with equal quality gear with equally good groups, the assassin should win the parse over a brusier everytime, end of story.</p>

[Couching]

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think a proc ward would be good, a complete boost,,,not only will it allow you to group ward, but allow you to tank better and be more desirablealso, change devastation fist to 1 percent damage on epics, so a raid mob with 3 million hp, you could one shot them for 30K.  thats what we need, group ward procs and 30 k hits say on a 3 min timer ((lol at all you that say 2k is not tier one!! wink wink nod nod,,,ok got it, good tact))</blockquote><p>If your raid group is doing 20k dps, then yes it is, if your raid force is doing 30-35k dps (which many of the top end raid group claim they do and I've no reason to doubt them), then no.  It is t2 dps.</p><p>I'm just doubting the validity of your 'bruiser' friend as he is either in absolutely top end gear with the right group set up, then yes, he probably could get there.  I've seen paladins who hit for 1800-2k zone wide too.</p><p><i><b>The other point is, how in the hell can a class that has worse CAs, no poison use and lower melee damage beat an adequately played assassin who has far superior CAs, better survivablity in jousting, poisons, etc?</b></i>  That is what doesn't seem right.  The point is, if you take 2 equally played toons with equal quality gear with equally good groups, the assassin should win the parse over a brusier everytime, end of story.</p></blockquote>QFE.Exactly, and that's what I have said many times but Siclone will never admitted that he sucks at playing an assassin.It makes me wondering if siclone was in trouble to be kicked out of his guild since he has problem to out damage a bruiser. It looks like Siclone is trying to defense himself as not sucking but class balance is broken. Besides, all fighters can hit 2k+ ZW with proper gear and buff. Siclone, go and check guardian, zerker, pal and sk forum here and eq2flames. Come back and whine that class balance is broken since even pally can hit 2k+ ZW but you as an assassin has problem to match a pally dps.

[Echgar]

This thread didn't exactly get off to a constructive start and it appears to be all over the place with regards to topic/issue with Bruisers.  I am also noting some attacks, insults, and namecalling being dished out and that kind of stuff really has no place here.The In Testing Feedback Forum is for discussion about new features and content currently being evaluated on the Test server.  It appears this thread is about a laundry list of Bruiser issues from updates past as well as wishlists for the future.  I am going to close this thread and ask people take their issues and post constructively in the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/forums/show.m?forum_id=44" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Bruiser Forum</a>.  Please be sure to look for existing threads about your pet peeve before starting a new thread.