Scale down the Ghostly Bow Of Bylze

[Tae]

I'm unsure if this is a real problem on the PvM servers, but right now every single PvP ranger on Venekor is using the ghostly bow of bylze. There's one reason for this - it has a 9 second delay and the only other 9 second delay things come from the harder raids or as a rare drop from Venekor himself in the Hall of Seeing. Is there any way of toning this weapon down at least a little? It's obvious there's a problem when everyone is using a 57 treasured item over anything else, and it's currently making rangers (with their huge crit chance) into the ultimate PvP class.

[Vatec]

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm unsure if this is a real problem on the PvM servers, but right now every single PvP ranger on Venekor is using the ghostly bow of bylze. There's one reason for this - it has a 9 second delay and the only other 9 second delay things come from the harder raids or as a rare drop from Venekor himself in the Hall of Seeing. Is there any way of toning this weapon down at least a little? It's obvious there's a problem when everyone is using a 57 treasured item over anything else, and it's currently making rangers (with their huge crit chance) into the ultimate PvP class. </blockquote>I'm not going to say that this isn't a problem for PvP.  It probably is.  But I =am= going to point out that one objection many of us had to PvP being implemented at all was that we =knew= it was going to affect PvE game balance.  Lots of players cried that no, it wouldn't have any effect on PvE.  And SOE pointed out that all their CAs and spells could have different effects in PvP and PvE.But every single one of us who had a brain =knew= it would result in situations like this.No, it's not a problem in PvE.  No, I've never heard a single mob complain because someone critted it with the Ghostly Bow of Bylze.  No, it doesn't need to be toned down.PvP game balance should =not= have any effect on PvE game balance....

[Tae]

<cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>No, it's not a problem in PvE.  No, I've never heard a single mob complain because someone critted it with the Ghostly Bow of Bylze.  No, it doesn't need to be toned down.PvP game balance should =not= have any effect on PvE game balance....</blockquote>If you're using a T6 treasured bow over any other alternative then it needs looking at even in PvM, don't you think?

[Vatec]

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>No, it's not a problem in PvE.  No, I've never heard a single mob complain because someone critted it with the Ghostly Bow of Bylze.  No, it doesn't need to be toned down.PvP game balance should =not= have any effect on PvE game balance....</blockquote>If you're using a T6 treasured bow over any other alternative then it needs looking at even in PvM, don't you think?</blockquote>A.  Happens quite a bit with bows, actually.  Lots of Rangers use the Stormhold one for a very long time.  Same thing with Sureshot from the Green Hood quest line and, for some, Longarm.  A Ranger is defined by his bow and a lot of low-level bows are simply better than whatever comes after them for a long time.  Sometimes even for 13 levels :^PB.  That being said, Ghostly Bow of Bylze is not the preferred bow on PvE servers.  For soloers it's Raincaller.  For others, it's Rigid Scale Bow or one of the other top-end bows.  Don't forget that on PvE servers it's a =lot= easier to raid.  Not only are there more people, but you can use the full range of classes, you're not stuck with just Good or just Evil.Is the Ghostly Bow of Bylze a good bow?  Obviously.  But the other reason it's popular is because it's relatively easy to get.  And on a PvP server, it's even =more= relatively easier to get, if you see my point.  I hope SOE can come up with a PvP-only solution to this PvP-only problem ;^)

[Tae]

<cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Is the Ghostly Bow of Bylze a good bow?  Obviously.  But the other reason it's popular is because it's relatively easy to get.  And on a PvP server, it's even =more= relatively easier to get, if you see my point.  I hope SOE can come up with a PvP-only solution to this PvP-only problem ;^)</blockquote>Well every weapon has a PvP toggle on it. Just make it so in PvP combat the bow has a 6 second delay. Problem solved.

[Vatec]

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Is the Ghostly Bow of Bylze a good bow?  Obviously.  But the other reason it's popular is because it's relatively easy to get.  And on a PvP server, it's even =more= relatively easier to get, if you see my point.  I hope SOE can come up with a PvP-only solution to this PvP-only problem ;^)</blockquote>Well every weapon has a PvP toggle on it. Just make it so in PvP combat the bow has a 6 second delay. Problem solved.</blockquote>Sounds good to me.  Another thing they could do is reclassify it as Legendary.  Given its quality, it's probably deserving of the designation....

[pseudocide]

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm unsure if this is a real problem on the PvM servers, but right now every single PvP ranger on Venekor is using the ghostly bow of bylze. There's one reason for this - <strike>it has a 9 second delay and the only other 9 second delay things come from the harder raids or as a rare drop from Venekor himself in the Hall of Seeing.</strike><span style="color: #ff0000;"> </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">because Valentino uses it. </span> Is there any way of toning this weapon down at least a little? It's obvious there's a problem when everyone is using a 57 treasured item over anything else, and it's currently making rangers (with their huge crit chance) into the ultimate PvP class.    </blockquote>

[Tae]

Jamilia used it, it was mentioned in a "nerf rangers" thread and now every ranger under the sun uses it. Valentino didn't do it first.

[Qanil]

<p>I mentioned it in that thread.</p><p>glad I did too.  poor rangers needed help.  they are such a [Removed for Content] class</p><p>lol</p>

[EQ2Magroo]

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm unsure if this is a real problem on the PvM servers, but right now every single PvP ranger on Venekor is using the ghostly bow of bylze. There's one reason for this - it has a 9 second delay and the only other 9 second delay things come from the harder raids or as a rare drop from Venekor himself in the Hall of Seeing. Is there any way of toning this weapon down at least a little? It's obvious there's a problem when everyone is using a 57 treasured item over anything else, and it's currently making rangers (with their huge crit chance) into the ultimate PvP class. </blockquote>What has a 9 second delay got to do with things ? OK, I know where you are coming from, but shortening the delay to 6 seconds is going to make the problem worse not better. What I assume you want is that the delay <b>AND</b> the max damage are reduced together to bring it more in line with other bows ? If you're going to cry out for nerfs to items, please formulate your argument correctly, otherwise a dev is likely going to look at the nerf post, do what people have asked for and then unbalance things even more.FYI, the reason Rangers use a level 57 bow, is that they probably only have acces to T7 ammo.If you use a T7 bow with T7 ammo, it [Removed for Content] the auto-attack damage. You need to either use T8 ammo or use a lower level bow. I'm very sceptical of all these "this bow is uber" posts. There is nothing great about this bow at all. All that I've seen is a few people post some unsupported "my DPS is uber" or "it crits for masive damage" type posts and now everyone is jumping on the nerf bandwagon. You never see any parse info to back up these claims.If you really think this bow is good, then prove it by posting actual parse/crit figures, backed up with your stats, group makeup etc. Maybe it's not the bow that was so great, but the 250 extra STR you got from that group that helped ? Personally you'll have to pluck RainCaller out of my cold dead hands before you can convince me otherwise.BTW - I guess this may be completely different on PvP servers, but without data we can't tell for sure either way. Don't make a PvP nerf effect PvE servers, we're perfectly happy over here!

[Ranja]

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm unsure if this is a real problem on the PvM servers, but right now every single PvP ranger on Venekor is using the ghostly bow of bylze. There's one reason for this - it has a 9 second delay and the only other 9 second delay things come from the harder raids or as a rare drop from Venekor himself in the Hall of Seeing. Is there any way of toning this weapon down at least a little? It's obvious there's a problem when everyone is using a 57 treasured item over anything else, and it's currently making rangers (with their huge crit chance) into the ultimate PvP class. </blockquote>Ya know you can use this bow too<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Cincinnat]

<cite>Adeyia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm unsure if this is a real problem on the PvM servers, but right now every single PvP ranger on Venekor is using the ghostly bow of bylze. There's one reason for this - it has a 9 second delay and the only other 9 second delay things come from the harder raids or as a rare drop from Venekor himself in the Hall of Seeing. Is there any way of toning this weapon down at least a little? It's obvious there's a problem when everyone is using a 57 treasured item over anything else, and it's currently making rangers (with their huge crit chance) into the ultimate PvP class. </blockquote>What has a 9 second delay got to do with things ? OK, I know where you are coming from, but shortening the delay to 6 seconds is going to make the problem worse not better. What I assume you want is that the delay <b>AND</b> the max damage are reduced together to bring it more in line with other bows ? If you're going to cry out for nerfs to items, please formulate your argument correctly, otherwise a dev is likely going to look at the nerf post, do what people have asked for and then unbalance things even more.FYI, the reason Rangers use a level 57 bow, is that they probably only have acces to T7 ammo.If you use a T7 bow with T7 ammo, it [Removed for Content] the auto-attack damage. You need to either use T8 ammo or use a lower level bow. I'm very sceptical of all these "this bow is uber" posts. There is nothing great about this bow at all. All that I've seen is a few people post some unsupported "my DPS is uber" or "it crits for masive damage" type posts and now everyone is jumping on the nerf bandwagon. You never see any parse info to back up these claims.If you really think this bow is good, then prove it by posting actual parse/crit figures, backed up with your stats, group makeup etc. Maybe it's not the bow that was so great, but the 250 extra STR you got from that group that helped ? Personally you'll have to pluck RainCaller out of my cold dead hands before you can convince me otherwise.BTW - I guess this may be completely different on PvP servers, but without data we can't tell for sure either way. Don't make a PvP nerf effect PvE servers, we're perfectly happy over here!</blockquote>The reason a 9 second delay has a lot to do with it is that since the bow will fire less times per minute the chance of procs that trigger x times per minute going off greatly increases. Its not the damage that is being complained about here, but the fact that this means that people getting shot at are for more likely to be stunned/stifled/rooted/whatevered right off the bat in a fight and die before they can do anything at all.Also, from what I can tell not being a ranger myself, most rangers use raincaller for pvm but switch to this bow for pvp.All Taear is saying, I think, is that its a bit weird for the weapon of choice for pvp rangers to be a level 57 treasured bow when the only other bow like it is the rare drop off Venekor.

[Tae]

<cite>Adeyia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><cite></cite> <blockquote>If you really think this bow is good, then prove it by posting actual parse/crit figures, backed up with your stats, group makeup etc. Maybe it's not the bow that was so great, but the 250 extra STR you got from that group that helped ? </blockquote>Go to the ranger thread a few weeks ago on the PvP boards. The one started by -arctura-. Every single parse in that thread is from the ghostly bow. And nearly every ranger wears the Manacles of Dark Sky which obviously instantly procs when you're shot with a 9 second delay bow.

[BigChiefJJ]

<p>The bow of blaze does have some nice benefits, it has a large damage spread, it can do very low damage but when it does crit it does massive damage.  It also has a 9 second delay and since procs are calculated on a delay of 3 seconds, it will basically triple your proc chance, but this is how pocs are meant to work, it's a compensation for not being able to attack as often, they are normalized so that in theoretically all weapons will proc the same number of times over the long haul. Add into the equation that the T7 ammo that is available is actually lvl 57 and it makes perfect sense that you would use either Raincaller or GBoB for your bow unless you get your hands on one of the really nice raid bows.  How many bows are actually available to the T7 non raiding ranger, GBoB from claymore quest, Grizz from his quest, Torn Ligament from Unrest, Imbued Ebony from a woodworker, Rain Caller and maybe one or two more.  Torn ligament has a deago proc on it and it actually does not parse as well as the others because it's a lvl 70 bow using lvl 57 ammo.  I think one of the rangers did some calculations with arrow/bow combinations and found that the lvl 57 bows did 100% of their damage potential using T7 arrows but the lvl 67 bows only did 93% of their damage potential and lvl 70 bows did 91% (or something close), I say fix this mechanic and you might have more rangers switching to T7 bows.</p><p>However nerfing bows are not the answer.  Most melee scouts dream of getting the Grinning Dirk or Horror (top damage ~257 with a 4 second delay) it is a fabled raid drop but should this be nerfed as well to bring the delay, and thus the top end damage back in line with other melee weapons?  Should we take a poll and see what the majority of each class is using in each primary slot and scale all of those items down as well?  </p><p>If you think it's the manacles that are the problem why not call for them to be scaled down instead of the bow?  CoV drops some boots that have a stun proc on them as well - lets just remove all the items that come with stun procs</p><p>Rangers have been beaten to death with the neft bat over the last several GU's please don't ask for more, especially one that will affect so many on PVE as well.</p>

[littleman17]

<p>You want to know why every Ranger uses this bow? Because it is one of the VERY FEW bows in the game that is built currectly for dps use by a ranger. We above all other classes must rely almost exclussively on the damage potential of our weapons.</p><p>Assassins and swashies and the like can slap on any the bajilion one handers that are almost exactly alike and get the same results. But for us, it is a whole heck of a lot more complicated. Say there is a bow that does 400-500 damage on a 6 second timer and one that does 200-550 on a 9 second timer, which would most of you use? I am sure that most of the non rangers are going to use the faster shooting, more stable damage first bow. But for us ranger's who rely a lot on crits and procs (even though 90% of procs are geared for mlee toons) would take the second bow for it's larger damage psread (more crits) and longer delay (more procs).</p><p>People are always complaining how we are such uber dps classes, when in reality, a ranger is only uber dps if they got how to play their class down to a science. It also takes a lot of patience as you have to sit there, and fire your auto, use a combat art (maybe two if they cast fast enough) then another auto... then another art. It is all rather tedious and lacks the button mashing fun that some classes get.</p><p>Did I mention the lack of good bows? To date, through FOUR "prismatic" quests, there has yet to be a bow reward. And just to reiterate how much skill it takes to parse sky high as a ranger, I am still learning how to raid with mine, so my timing is not perfect yet... so I have the venekor bow, and still only parse around 1.7k... but I am learning, and let me tell you, it isn't easy.</p>

[Cocytus]

I'm tired of seeing PVE changes made because of fuckign PVPers.

[Tae]

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm tired of seeing PVE changes made because of [I cannot control my vocabulary] PVPers.</blockquote>And I'm tired of having things staying the same because on PvM servers nobody cares if rangers are overpowered.

[littleman17]

<p>Over powered?! OVER POWERED?! HAHAHAHAH!</p><p>Ranger's are far from over powered. Just because you have come across the rare few of us who have EVERY little piece of things we need to do max dps, it doesn't mean we are all that way. For wizards, it takes  ad3/maters and a few pieces of proc gear to reach their max dps (high int too)... for rangers, we need the rarest of rare bows, fabled summoned arrows, ad3/masters, ranged crit, high str, ranged double (almost as hard to get as the bows), lots of procs that actually work on ranged attacks (just as rare) and amazingly high ranged skills so that we can actually hit the mobs.</p><p>So please, get to know a class before you call for our nerfing. The byzle bow is one of the few bows that is actually made for rangers, where as most are made for the casual ranged users by their damage spread and delays.</p>

[Cocytus]

<p>A brigand? Calling someone overpowered? Lolrus.</p>

[Hamervelder]

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Is the Ghostly Bow of Bylze a good bow?  Obviously.  But the other reason it's popular is because it's relatively easy to get.  And on a PvP server, it's even =more= relatively easier to get, if you see my point.  I hope SOE can come up with a PvP-only solution to this PvP-only problem ;^)</blockquote>Well every weapon has a PvP toggle on it. Just make it so in PvP combat the bow has a 6 second delay. Problem solved.</blockquote>All spells also have PvP toggles.  And yet .... *gasp*  PvE servers are affected by changes for PvP.  The only solution for PvP, IMO, is to get rid of it.  Not because PvP isn't fun, but because EQ2's game mechanics suck for PvP.

[Mildavyn]

<cite>littleman17 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Over powered?! OVER POWERED?! HAHAHAHAH!</p><p>Ranger's are far from over powered. <snip></p></blockquote><p>This isnt about rangers, this is about a bow that needs changing *FOR PVP*. Since you don't play on PvP please refrain from commenting on things you aren't qualified to have an opinion on. While you may be right as far as PvE is concerned, this thread is about PvP which is a completely different game, so do us a favour and go pad your post count somewhere else. TY</p><p>EDIT: This bow can be changed for PVP easily without effecting your precious PvE. Drop the top-end damage by 100, and increase the min damage by the same. It'll still be a nice bow for PvP, but it wont be rivaling raid bows.</p>

[Tae]

<cite>Paikis@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>This isnt about rangers, this is about a bow that needs changing *FOR PVP*. Since you don't play on PvP please refrain from commenting on things you aren't qualified to have an opinion on. While you may be right as far as PvE is concerned, this thread is about PvP which is a completely different game, so do us a favour and go pad your post count somewhere else. TY<p>EDIT: This bow can be changed for PVP easily without effecting your precious PvE. Drop the top-end damage by 100, and increase the min damage by the same. It'll still be a nice bow for PvP, but it wont be rivaling raid bows.</p></blockquote>Sounds good to me.

[Zaci]

The bow doesnt need to be scaled down, I was a ranger for quite a while in t7 pvp, and that bow is a lifesaver for quite a lot of people who cannot raid. Rangers are the most gear dependent class in the game, and the gear they need to be good is extremely rare. I play a swash now, and with the manacles of drak sky, my stun proc on my bracers, planar orb proc, and a couple of other things, when I throw inspiration and engarde on and use my stuns, you wont move for 10 seconds, and die just as quick as you would with a ranger on you. Nerf Procs !!!!1111111oneone0.o

[Mildavyn]

<p>It does need to be tuned down. Other bows may need to be improved as well, but thats a different topic.</p><p>A level 57 treasured bow should NOT be better than a T7 bow. And it wouldn't be, except for its max damage, and the fact that Rangers can get obscenely high ranged crit.</p><p>There was also a comment somewhere about ammo problems too. Something about T7 arrows only being level 57 and so higher tier bows aren't performing as well? Can someone either explain this, or provide me a link to where it IS explained please.</p>

[PaganSaint]

That bow doesn't really hit hard at all. Like, <b>very</b> low DPS.Yes, it has the best delay of all the treasured crap bows. Yes, it has the best proc percentage of all of the treasured crap bows. No, its not worth using primarily.

[Mildavyn]

<p>You forgot, "Yes it has the highest critical damage of any non-raid bow."</p><p>Rangers have VERY high crit rate with their buffs, better than 50%... I want to say 64%+gear?</p>

[PaganSaint]

And then you see that it hits high, for a treasured bow, but so in often that you can do anything you like compared to how much DPS you are actually taking.Hooray, it can put out higher crits than those short bows that people are running around with from raids. It is still not the best bow available to a non raider.

[Norrsken]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>And then you see that it hits high, for a treasured bow, but so in often that you can do anything you like compared to how much DPS you are actually taking.Hooray, it can put out higher crits than those short bows that people are running around with from raids. It is still not the best bow available to a non raider.</blockquote>However, in pvp, your target will be dead in a fwe seconds due to the rather crazy upfront damage this bow will make you do.

[jam3]

go get more then 1.5k kills then talk like you know pvp

[Norrsken]

<cite>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>go get more then 1.5k kills then talk like you know pvp</blockquote>Oh on my varios 20+ pvp toons (of whom all but 5-6 are now deleted), I can probably rack up something like 10k kills total quite easily. One of them, whom I havent even pvpd with since more than a year ago has something like 1.7k kills. wonder if you yourself had that back then.Now go stroke your wookie on someone elses leg.

[Tae]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>And then you see that it hits high, for a treasured bow, but so in often that you can do anything you like compared to how much DPS you are actually taking.Hooray, it can put out higher crits than those short bows that people are running around with from raids. It is still not the best bow available to a non raider.</blockquote>You're not taking any DPS because your opponent is dead in 2 seconds.

[Mildavyn]

<cite>Aeeron@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>go get more then 1.5k kills then talk like you know pvp</blockquote><p>Play a class that isn't st00pid-easy-mode, <b><i>THEN</i></b> come talking like you're king-[Removed for Content]. Kill count is <b><i>NOT</i></b> a measure of skill or class knowledge. Grats, I can roll in a raid as well!</p><p>The fact of the matter is this: The GBoB has the highest crit damage of any non-raided bow, and higher even than some of those. It is insanely easy to get, and on it's own isn't overpowered at all. Put it in the hands of a ranger, who can easily get more than 60-70% ranged crits for the 10 seconds it takes them to kill most folks and it's going to be critting on almost every hit. When their bows are critting on almost every hit, who cares if the minimum damage is low? Hell, it could be as bad as HEALING the target on all non-crit hits, and Rangers would STILL use it to kill people.</p><p>This bow <b><i>IS</i></b> out performing just about every other bow in the game (Aside from some raid bows) in PvP, and since it's a level 57 treasured bow, I don't see why it should.</p>