Skeleton models---- any info on this?

[Avanya]

<p>I am sooo nervous about them changing models.  I played EQ1 for years and so was playing when they changed models with the Luclin expansion.  I logged in eager to see the new models and nearly fainted when I saw that my adorable little wood elf suddenly had blocky sized 66 hips and ran like a football player.  Needless to say, I went back to the old models and never turned the new ones on again.  </p><p>I know character appearance doesn't seem to matter to some people, but as a female player, I feel that my avatar is a representation of "me".  I like to have an avatar that I feel is attractive.  Is there any info out there about these new skeleton models?  Please tell me that I'm not going to turn into a grotesque paradoy of a wood elf again <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Cayden]

I know how you feel.  When I began playing EQ2, I felt the characters were very ugly and rough looking.  They seemed, like some have put it, like clay models.  I came back once they released the SOGA models and have been enjoying it ever since.  If I have to go back to the old models again, I will be sorely upset.

[Novusod]

I am one of the few who is actually dreading the coming skeletal revamp. On paper it sounds like a really good Idea. They could create one universal skeleton and then remorph it and retexture it an infinate amount of ways. Each race could have five or so different skin textures and it wouldn't hurt preformance. It is a great idea in concept but we are talking about SoE here where even slam dunk ideas get fouled up. SOGA users are probably going to get shafted because of all the anti-SOGA whiners who think the game will turn in to Poke'mon. We may end up with some gross compromise where SOGA hairstyles gets stuck on US model heads. The whole project is just not looking for a good outcome.

[Willias]

Look at all the recent stuff (art-wise) that was put into the game.  IMO, a lot of it looks better than the old original EQ2 stuff.  Also, look at the art of the stuff coming in RoK.  That's why I have faith in the art team when it comes to new player models.  They're on a roll right now when it comes to making stuff look good.

[markdevox]

<p>Just so long as they don't make all the female models look like they've had breast implants.  /shudder</p>

[Writer Cal]

So long as they don't ruin ratonga by giving them human style legs, I'll be happy. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Enever]

I agree with the above poster.

[shadowscale]

i kinda wish iksar and kera had the diffrent style legs to. but it might be to late to do a change like that and not look weird.

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Naw Froglocks and Ratonga are less likely to take too much of a change they might get the skeletal revanp as well but hopefully they will keep roughly the same dimensions, although they might want to take the time to fix the clothing issues with them.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Kerra Trolls and Iksar females could use some less blocky curves, sure, the Iksar don't have breast but I would like to be able to change the length of their frilliks. As for breast I think they need a slider for that. I would put most of mine probably at a C cup maybe a B for one of my DE's extra long Frilliks on any iksar lol.</span></p>

[Soldancer]

I really wonder why people expect an improvement from a simplification of the skeletal models. Isn't it clear for them that such a simplification will make character animation uglier than now? Reason for this plans are the demand for more gear variety - with simplificated skeletal models its easier to bring in more variety BUT at the cost of loosing aesthetic. Like often You can't have both. Either You have good looking char animations but lesser gear variety or you have more gear variety but lesser aesthetic in char animations. I really hope that SOE will never introduce the simplificated skeleton models, the new second clothing layer gives enough possibilities to make chars more unique, there is no longer any need for simplification of the skeletal model. If I ever log in in the future and must see that my chars moving like ugly idiots because of a reduced skeletal model I will be gone for sure. Think twice, SOE, before You do that. Those who complain about too few gear variety aren't that much. Those who like the current aesthetic are more and they will scream loud after such a change.

[quasigenx]

<cite>Soldancer wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really wonder why people expect an improvement from a simplification of the skeletal models. Isn't it clear for them that such a simplification will make character animation uglier than now? Reason for this plans are the demand for more gear variety - with simplificated skeletal models its easier to bring in more variety BUT at the cost of loosing aesthetic. Like often You can't have both. Either You have good looking char animations but lesser gear variety or you have more gear variety but lesser aesthetic in char animations. I really hope that SOE will never introduce the simplificated skeleton models, the new second clothing layer gives enough possibilities to make chars more unique, there is no longer any need for simplification of the skeletal model. If I ever log in in the future and must see that my chars moving like ugly idiots because of a reduced skeletal model I will be gone for sure. Think twice, SOE, before You do that. Those who complain about too few gear variety aren't that much. Those who like the current aesthetic are more and they will scream loud after such a change.</blockquote>I have been looking forward to the skeletal model update for a while, but in general I'm with you. If they can't make the skeletal models look as good or better than the existing models, then it shouldn't be released. Armor variety is secondary to the models themselves.

[Avanya]

<p><cite>quasigenx wrote:</cite></p><p><cite>I have been looking forward to the skeletal model update for a while, but in general I'm with you. If they can't make the skeletal models look as good or better than the existing models, then it shouldn't be released. Armor variety is secondary to the models themselves.</cite></p><p><cite>QFE</cite></p><p><cite></cite> </p>

[Dreyco]

In honesty, I have been looking forward to this model revamp for a while, though I keep mixed feelings for good reasons, the biggest of which being the lack of communication from the Developers.I mean, what are we going to see happen?What types of models are going with what races?How many skeleton types will there be?HOw close will they look to current models, or will they be changed entirely?Is my Iksar going to be the powerful warrior that he is depicted to be as far as lore is concerned, or will he be stuck sharing with the puny humans? :pDev communication would be fantastic, as we're hearing about "Sarnak being the first", and that is raising some questions.  Lotus had said that he would post about it, but nothing yet.  Could we get at least some word? No need for an ETA, but ease some of our fears, and give us a greater idea other than "we're fixing armor".

[Willias]

<cite>Soldancer wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really wonder why people expect an improvement from a simplification of the skeletal models. Isn't it clear for them that such a simplification will make character animation uglier than now? Reason for this plans are the demand for more gear variety - with simplificated skeletal models its easier to bring in more variety BUT at the cost of loosing aesthetic. Like often You can't have both. Either You have good looking char animations but lesser gear variety or you have more gear variety but lesser aesthetic in char animations. I really hope that SOE will never introduce the simplificated skeleton models, the new second clothing layer gives enough possibilities to make chars more unique, there is no longer any need for simplification of the skeletal model. If I ever log in in the future and must see that my chars moving like ugly idiots because of a reduced skeletal model I will be gone for sure. Think twice, SOE, before You do that. Those who complain about too few gear variety aren't that much. Those who like the current aesthetic are more and they will scream loud after such a change.</blockquote>You sure about that?  The sarnak player models are on the new skeletal system.  They're kind of the beginnings of it, actually.  They look pretty good, except for the huge heads.The main reason for the creation of the new skeletal system is so that armor can be designed, and then with the use of new tools, be automagically fitted to every character race with the push of a button.  As it is now, all character races have to have their own armor model designed from step one.  Even if the armor doesn't look that much different from race to race.

[Grace37]

<p>well i have read quite a few articles about this new skeletal system.</p><p>for one it isnt going to change the outer looks of the models in any way except of the following</p><p>     1. more and better morphs for personalization</p><p>     2. the hair models for the 2 diffrend model types (origanal, SOGA) will all be available for both models</p><p>     3. Racial animation types and more variety in animations and better details in animation</p><p> as for the clothing and armor it is going to make more choices for both clothing possabilitys and armor styles</p><p>i am not sure what everyone is talking about when they say it is a unified simplified skeletal system from what i understand all the models share the same skeleton now that is why all the characters have the exact same animations and emotes and clothing. from what i understood the new system was to be more detailed and able to allow more information for better customization and features. now there are my views not quotes</p>

[TaleraRis]

New skelly models?<img src="http://taleraris.homestead.com/files/StickFigure.jpg" alt="" border="0" /><img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[ganjookie]

<cite>Soldancer wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really wonder why people expect an improvement from a simplification of the skeletal models. Isn't it clear for them that such a simplification will make character animation uglier than now? Reason for this plans are the demand for more gear variety - with simplificated skeletal models its easier to bring in more variety BUT at the cost of loosing aesthetic. Like often You can't have both. Either You have good looking char animations but lesser gear variety or you have more gear variety but lesser aesthetic in char animations. I really hope that SOE will never introduce the simplificated skeleton models, the new second clothing layer gives enough possibilities to make chars more unique, there is no longer any need for simplification of the skeletal model. If I ever log in in the future and must see that my chars moving like ugly idiots because of a reduced skeletal model I will be gone for sure. Think twice, SOE, before You do that. <span style="color: #990000;">Those who complain about too few gear variety aren't that much. Those who like the current aesthetic are more</span> and <span style="color: #00cc00;">they will scream loud after such a change.</span></blockquote><span style="color: #990000;">How do you, somebody I've never heard of, know more of this then SoE?<span style="color: #33cc00;">and, of course they will scream, but it's only 5% of the population on the official boards that will scream.</span></span>

[Cayden]

<cite>Grace37 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>well i have read quite a few articles about this new skeletal system.</p><p>for one it isnt going to change the outer looks of the models in any way except of the following</p><p>     1. more and better morphs for personalization</p><p>     2. the hair models for the 2 diffrend model types (origanal, SOGA) will all be available for both models</p><p>     3. Racial animation types and more variety in animations and better details in animation</p><p> as for the clothing and armor it is going to make more choices for both clothing possabilitys and armor styles</p><p>i am not sure what everyone is talking about when they say it is a unified simplified skeletal system from what i understand all the models share the same skeleton now that is why all the characters have the exact same animations and emotes and clothing. from what i understood the new system was to be more detailed and able to allow more information for better customization and features. now there are my views not quotes</p></blockquote><span style="color: #ccff33;">That sounds really nice.  I am all for it as long as it doesn't drastically change how my character looks now.  As I stated before, I despise the old characters, but love my SOGA characters.</span>

[Avanya]

<cite>Kithian@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soldancer wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really wonder why people expect an improvement from a simplification of the skeletal models. Isn't it clear for them that such a simplification will make character animation uglier than now?Reason for this plans are the demand for more gear variety - with simplificated skeletal models its easier to bring in more variety BUT at the cost of loosing aesthetic.Like often You can't have both. Either You have good looking char animations but lesser gear variety or you have more gear variety but lesser aesthetic in char animations.I really hope that SOE will never introduce the simplificated skeleton models, the new second clothing layer gives enough possibilities to make chars more unique, there is no longer any need for simplification of the skeletal model.If I ever log in in the future and must see that my chars moving like ugly idiots because of a reduced skeletal model I will be gone for sure. Think twice, SOE, before You do that. <span style="color: #990000;">Those who complain about too few gear variety aren't that much. Those who like the current aesthetic are more</span> and <span style="color: #00cc00;">they will scream loud after such a change.</span></blockquote><span style="color: #990000;">How do you, somebody I've never heard of, know more of this then SoE?<span style="color: #33cc00;">and, of course they will scream, but it's only 5% of the population on the official boards that will scream.</span></span></blockquote><p>If you're not just a troll, I think you underestimate how much importance players place on their character's appearance.  I for one don't care about new armor looks if it means my wood elf looks like a, pardon the pun, troll.</p><p>If you are a troll, go back under your bridge and scare the sheep <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>And in reference to a previous post, I do agree that I think they should communicate with us more about this issue.  They really haven't given out much info and perhaps if they let us know something, it would ease our minds about it.</p>

[Soldancer]

<cite>Arani wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you're not just a troll, I think you underestimate how much importance players place on their character's appearance. </blockquote> And You underestimate how much importance has a good movement aesthetic for other players. Again: Whoever thinks that a simplificated skeletal model will make animations better is a fool! What do You have from better appearance if chars then moving like WoW cartoon figures? Explain me this. If the bodies of our chars will have lesser skeleton parts in it then it's absolutely inevitably that they will loose a lot of movement aesthetic. Any doubts about this? I think the devs have realized this and found the better solution by keeping the existing skeletal models and adding a second clothing layer. If I'm right then forget this thing with the simplificated skeleton models. PS: And don't call me a troll or I call You a poser who expect the impossibility to wear unique gear. In RL only very rich people can have the luxury to wear unique clothes made by a tailor. Do You really think You can have the same service in EQ2 for only 15 bucks?

[Vonotar]

<cite>Grace37 wrote:</cite><blockquote>i am not sure what everyone is talking about when they say it is a unified simplified skeletal system from what i understand all the models share the same skeleton now that is why all the characters have the exact same animations and emotes and clothing. from what i understood the new system was to be more detailed and able to allow more information for better customization and features. now there are my views not quotes</blockquote>They may look virtually identical, but they are actually different skeletons at the moment.  Even worse, we have a set of SOGA skeletons and a set of US skeletons.I believe the aim is to reduce this to around 3-4 skeleton types, rumours I've heard being..  big (ogre/barbarian etc), regular (human/elf etc), short (gnome/halfling etc) and bestial (froglok and other non-humanoid).Assuming they give us more sliders to tweak, I can imagine it won't be too impossible to have slender Soga type characters and 'well built' US type characters running around at the same time.Should make it very interesting.  Personally I would like to tweak some of my Soga'd alts to be less slender (and less busty!)

[Bramwe]

Whatever happens I hope it is an improvement in performance at the same settings as I have now.  I honestly care more about performance than anything at this point.  About the WoW type models...I really wouldn't care if EQ models became more like those.  I can have that game at max settings and raid smoothly.  I can't even come close to that in this game so really performance is all I care about.  Hopefully the new system is a little of both; New eye candy for those who want it and better performance for those who need it.

[Captain Apple Darkberry]

<span style="color: #ff3300;">As long as they aren't as butt ugly as the Vanguard models...I think that what most people would want would be for the "general appearance" of their race to stay intact in the change.  I know some would disagree with this statement, but I feel that SoE has made a distinctive set of races, Halflings, Gnomes, Ratonga, Frogloks, the myriad of Elf Races...   ...I would really hate to log in one day and see my Halfling looking nothing like she use to.And please, when you do the skeletal revamp, change the [Removed for Content] /dance emote.  Maybe even be so cool as to add racial dances.Thanks Sony!</span>

[ke'la]

<cite>Ives@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>So long as they don't ruin ratonga by giving them human style legs, I'll be happy. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>consitering the Sarnak that I saw at Fan Fair(wich uses the new Model) had the same type of legs(if I remember right) just longer I don't think you have to worry.</p><p>I have stated in other threads and say the same here the new models are more like Soga and Standard had a child(atleast the human model I saw) basicly they took the best aspects of both models and combined them, they also added more detail like real fingers and toes instead of webed feet. Also a close up of the armored hand wich had fingers showed the finger articulation that real armor has.</p>

[ke'la]

<cite>quasigenx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soldancer wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really wonder why people expect an improvement from a simplification of the skeletal models. Isn't it clear for them that such a simplification will make character animation uglier than now?Reason for this plans are the demand for more gear variety - with simplificated skeletal models its easier to bring in more variety BUT at the cost of loosing aesthetic.Like often You can't have both. Either You have good looking char animations but lesser gear variety or you have more gear variety but lesser aesthetic in char animations.I really hope that SOE will never introduce the simplificated skeleton models, the new second clothing layer gives enough possibilities to make chars more unique, there is no longer any need for simplification of the skeletal model.If I ever log in in the future and must see that my chars moving like ugly idiots because of a reduced skeletal model I will be gone for sure. Think twice, SOE, before You do that. Those who complain about too few gear variety aren't that much. Those who like the current aesthetic are more and they will scream loud after such a change.</blockquote>I have been looking forward to the skeletal model update for a while, but in general I'm with you. <span style="color: #cc0000;">If they can't make the skeletal models look as good or better than the existing models, then it shouldn't be released.</span> Armor variety is secondary to the models themselves.</blockquote>This I think is why it has taken them over a year and a half to get JUST ONE exsisting model into Apha(Human Male Apha was showen at Fan Fair and it DOES look better) and are finally able to add a new Race under the new model.

[ke'la]

<cite>Arani@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kithian@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soldancer wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really wonder why people expect an improvement from a simplification of the skeletal models. Isn't it clear for them that such a simplification will make character animation uglier than now?Reason for this plans are the demand for more gear variety - with simplificated skeletal models its easier to bring in more variety BUT at the cost of loosing aesthetic.Like often You can't have both. Either You have good looking char animations but lesser gear variety or you have more gear variety but lesser aesthetic in char animations.I really hope that SOE will never introduce the simplificated skeleton models, the new second clothing layer gives enough possibilities to make chars more unique, there is no longer any need for simplification of the skeletal model.If I ever log in in the future and must see that my chars moving like ugly idiots because of a reduced skeletal model I will be gone for sure. Think twice, SOE, before You do that. <span style="color: #990000;">Those who complain about too few gear variety aren't that much. Those who like the current aesthetic are more</span> and <span style="color: #00cc00;">they will scream loud after such a change.</span></blockquote><span style="color: #990000;">How do you, somebody I've never heard of, know more of this then SoE?<span style="color: #33cc00;">and, of course they will scream, but it's only 5% of the population on the official boards that will scream.</span></span></blockquote><p>If you're not just a troll, I think you underestimate how much importance players place on their character's appearance.  I for one don't care about new armor looks if it means my wood elf looks like a, pardon the pun, troll.</p><p>If you are a troll, go back under your bridge and scare the sheep <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>And in reference to a previous post, I do agree that I think they should communicate with us more about this issue.  They really haven't given out much info and perhaps if they let us know something, it would ease our minds about it.</p></blockquote>The reason they have not said much is because currently they only have ONE, that right ONE, model of current races thats even in a showable APHA stage. As they get closer to internal beta where they accually have all the models available I am shure you will see screenshots and such.

[ke'la]

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>In honesty, I have been looking forward to this model revamp for a while, though I keep mixed feelings for good reasons, the biggest of which being the lack of communication from the Developers.I mean, what are we going to see happen? <span style="color: #cc0000;">The 2 old models will be replaced by the new model</span>What types of models are going with what races? <span style="color: #cc0000;">Models that best match the current model of that race</span>How many skeleton types will there be? <span style="color: #cc0000;">However many are needed, probly 4ish, Large, Med, Small and Non-humanoid. With some gradation is scaling for exsample Iksar would be a scaled down Large.</span>HOw close will they look to current models, or will they be changed entirely?<span style="color: #cc0000;"> The human I saw was a cross between SOGA and Standard so they will be close to what you see now.</span>Is my Iksar going to be the powerful warrior that he is depicted to be as far as lore is concerned, or will he be stuck sharing with the puny humans? :p <span style="color: #cc0000;">Consitering how the Sarnak are looking I would say you will still look just as powerful</span>Dev communication would be fantastic, as we're hearing about "Sarnak being the first", and that is raising some questions.  Lotus had said that he would post about it, but nothing yet.  Could we get at least some word? No need for an ETA, but ease some of our fears, and give us a greater idea other than "we're fixing armor".</blockquote>

[Laiyo]

Just so long as they don't "de-pudge" my halfling girl!  The halflings in this game are among the best I've ever seen and the stock halfling female is very cute!

[Avanya]

<cite>Soldancer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arani wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you're not just a troll, I think you underestimate how much importance players place on their character's appearance. </blockquote>And You underestimate how much importance has a good movement aesthetic for other players.Again: Whoever thinks that a simplificated skeletal model will make animations better is a fool!What do You have from better appearance if chars then moving like WoW cartoon figures? Explain me this.If the bodies of our chars will have lesser skeleton parts in it then it's absolutely inevitably that they will loose a lot of movement aesthetic. Any doubts about this?I think the devs have realized this and found the better solution by keeping the existing skeletal models and adding a second clothing layer. If I'm right then forget this thing with the simplificated skeleton models.PS: And don't call me a troll or I call You a poser who expect the impossibility to wear unique gear. In RL only very rich people can have the luxury to wear unique clothes made by a tailor. Do You really think You can have the same service in EQ2 for only 15 bucks?</blockquote>Wow, sorry you had to get yourself all worked up and insult me.  If you look at my post, you will see that I was responding to *Kithian* not to you.  I thought *Kithian* was a troll, not you.  Maybe you should look more carefully next time <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />  not very nice

[ke'la]

<cite>Soldancer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arani wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you're not just a troll, I think you underestimate how much importance players place on their character's appearance. </blockquote><p>And You underestimate how much importance has a good movement aesthetic for other players.Again: Whoever thinks that a simplificated skeletal model will make animations better is a fool!</p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">accually whoever thinks this plan is to simplify the model is a fool. They are simplifing ARMOR AND WEOPON creation and at the same time IMPROVING and in accuallity making the model (from a player perspective) more complex. Such as giving the skelliton fingers and toes(something we don't have now), articulated hand armor instead of the oven mitts we currently have. And I have seen some of the animations again they look like they do on live, and some accually look better.</span>What do You have from better appearance if chars then moving like WoW cartoon figures? Explain me this.<span style="color: #cc0000;">If they moved like WoW wich they DON'T then I would have an issue. Again what they are simplifying is ARMOR creation Not the accual skeletion.</span>If the bodies of our chars will have lesser skeleton parts in it then it's absolutely inevitably that they will loose a lot of movement aesthetic. Any doubts about this?<span style="color: #cc0000;">They will have MORE parts not less so they will accually have a BETTER movement aesthetic. Including a "sheath bone" for sheathing weopons instead of having them just stick to our sides(I accually saw atleast one weopon swing while sheathed)</span>I think the devs have realized this and found the better solution by keeping the existing skeletal models and adding a second clothing layer. If I'm right then forget this thing with the simplificated skeleton models.<span style="color: #cc0000;">Nope, the new clothing layier is part of this change as they don't want to redo the exsisting armor and make people mad because they don't like the way the new Cobalt Vanguard looks like, they can instead and NEW armor models in as fluff and let people use the new armor or the exsisting armors.</span>PS: And don't call me a troll or I call You a poser who expect the impossibility to wear unique gear. In RL only very rich people can have the luxury to wear unique clothes made by a tailor. Do You really think You can have the same service in EQ2 for only 15 bucks?</p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">Um, yeah because they are doing it, and have already spent over a year and a half working on it. Grantied it won't be indvisually unique but there will be more armor styles available. As far as your Tailor anlogy we are not asking for one of a kinda armor we are asking for the local JC Penny's to carry more then Shorts and T-shirts. Maybe some long pants, and a suit jacket would be nice.</span></p></blockquote>

[ke'la]

<cite>Apple@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff3300;">As long as they aren't as butt ugly as the Vanguard models...I think that what most people would want would be for the "general appearance" of their race to stay intact in the change.  I know some would disagree with this statement, but I feel that SoE has made a distinctive set of races, Halflings, Gnomes, Ratonga, Frogloks, the myriad of Elf Races...   ...I would really hate to log in one day and see my Halfling looking nothing like she use to.And please, when you do the skeletal revamp, change the [Removed for Content] /dance emote.  Maybe even be so cool as to add racial dances.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff3300;"><span style="color: #33ff99;">Accually this was asked at fan fair and the answer was something like you notice that all the new races have thier own dance <wink>, and a lot of wriggling when pressed for wheither or not they are going to go back and retroactivly change the old races /dance, so my guess is they hate the current dance too and would like to go back and change them. Changing them may even be on the todo list but IF it is then it is not coming until after the skelital revamp and its probly a long ways off.</span>Thanks Sony!</span></p></blockquote>

[Avanya]

Thanks for all the info you have posted here <b>ke'la.  </b>I understand the whole thing a lot better and I'm not quite so worried. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kaalenarc]

<cite>Cayden@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Grace37 wrote</cite><span style="color: #ccff33;">That sounds really nice.  I am all for it as long as it doesn't drastically change how my character looks now.  As I stated before, I despise the old characters, but love my SOGA characters.</span></blockquote>Im not alone! I feel the same way! heh

[Vatec]

<cite>Apple@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ff3300;">As long as they aren't as butt ugly as the Vanguard models...I think that what most people would want would be for the "general appearance" of their race to stay intact in the change.  I know some would disagree with this statement, but I feel that SoE has made a distinctive set of races, Halflings, Gnomes, Ratonga, Frogloks, the myriad of Elf Races...   ...I would really hate to log in one day and see my Halfling looking nothing like she use to.And please, when you do the skeletal revamp, change the [Removed for Content] /dance emote.  Maybe even be so cool as to add racial dances.Thanks Sony!</span></blockquote>Not sure what you're talking about here.  I think one of the few things Vanguard did =right= was its graphic look.  The character models are fantastic, the armor sets are great, and the landscapes are gorgeous.  If you're referring to animation, I might agree:  the animations varied a lot in quality.  But as for the models, I can't disagree with you more....Edit:  To give you a point of reference, I prefer the older US EQ2 models and think the SOGA models are ugly (Dark Elves) at best and grotesque (female Erudites) at worst.  The only exceptions would be female humans (both US and SOGA models are unattractive, just in different ways) and ogres (SOGA models are much cooler).

[toenukl]

<cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Apple@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ff3300;">As long as they aren't as butt ugly as the Vanguard models...I think that what most people would want would be for the "general appearance" of their race to stay intact in the change.  I know some would disagree with this statement, but I feel that SoE has made a distinctive set of races, Halflings, Gnomes, Ratonga, Frogloks, the myriad of Elf Races...   ...I would really hate to log in one day and see my Halfling looking nothing like she use to.And please, when you do the skeletal revamp, change the [Removed for Content] /dance emote.  Maybe even be so cool as to add racial dances.Thanks Sony!</span></blockquote>Not sure what you're talking about here.  I think one of the few things Vanguard did =right= was its graphic look.  The character models are fantastic, the armor sets are great, and the landscapes are gorgeous.  If you're referring to animation, I might agree:  the animations varied a lot in quality.  But as for the models, I can't disagree with you more....Edit:  To give you a point of reference, I prefer the older US EQ2 models and think the SOGA models are ugly (Dark Elves) at best and grotesque (female Erudites) at worst.  The only exceptions would be female humans (both US and SOGA models are unattractive, just in different ways) and ogres (SOGA models are much cooler).</blockquote>*shudder* Vanguard character models. Worst thing about the game... Wolf race? Sure just slap a wolf head on a human body. Tail? naaa, who needs it. Cat race? Sure, slap that cat head on the same human model and, again, forget the tail, animals don't HAVE to have tails. And customization? The only customization available is stretching the model to make it look morphed, and even then, most models looked identical. Animations.. agree w/ you there, terrible. Now, armor sets and landscape, yes, that is where Vanguard shines...

[Soldancer]

<cite>Arani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow, sorry you had to get yourself all worked up and insult me. If you look at my post, you will see that I was responding to *Kithian* not to you.</blockquote> Yes, You are right, I'm sorry. Didn't saw it was a quote from a quote. Don't worry, please <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Zarafein]

<p>I love the look of my original model Ogre, thats a ugly monstrous brute <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> , soga doesn't look bad(ok for a warrior race but they don't look like the "juggernauts of war" imo)  but doesn't fit to my character, anyway i could accept some changes as long it still fits to my character.</p><p>Most important for me is the customization factor, should be at least as much as original models have on all of the new ones.</p>

[Vatec]

<cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Apple@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ff3300;">As long as they aren't as butt ugly as the Vanguard models...I think that what most people would want would be for the "general appearance" of their race to stay intact in the change.  I know some would disagree with this statement, but I feel that SoE has made a distinctive set of races, Halflings, Gnomes, Ratonga, Frogloks, the myriad of Elf Races...   ...I would really hate to log in one day and see my Halfling looking nothing like she use to.And please, when you do the skeletal revamp, change the [Removed for Content] /dance emote.  Maybe even be so cool as to add racial dances.Thanks Sony!</span></blockquote>Not sure what you're talking about here.  I think one of the few things Vanguard did =right= was its graphic look.  The character models are fantastic, the armor sets are great, and the landscapes are gorgeous.  If you're referring to animation, I might agree:  the animations varied a lot in quality.  But as for the models, I can't disagree with you more....Edit:  To give you a point of reference, I prefer the older US EQ2 models and think the SOGA models are ugly (Dark Elves) at best and grotesque (female Erudites) at worst.  The only exceptions would be female humans (both US and SOGA models are unattractive, just in different ways) and ogres (SOGA models are much cooler).</blockquote>*shudder* Vanguard character models. Worst thing about the game... Wolf race? Sure just slap a wolf head on a human body. Tail? naaa, who needs it. Cat race? Sure, slap that cat head on the same human model and, again, forget the tail, animals don't HAVE to have tails. And customization? The only customization available is stretching the model to make it look morphed, and even then, most models looked identical. Animations.. agree w/ you there, terrible. Now, armor sets and landscape, yes, that is where Vanguard shines... </blockquote>I'll agree about the tails.  But then again, I'm not a big fan of the beast races anyway.  Except ratonga, of course.  But I'll disagree strongly on the other races.  Vanguard Dark Elves are head, shoulders, and torso above EQ2's Dark Elves.  Vanguard High Elves also look better than EQ2's.  And their human females actually look human, unlike EQ2's blow-up dolls.The Vanguard models' main problem is a lack of hairstyle options.  Those would make a =huge= difference.Not all of Vanguard's animations suck.  The monk animations were actually quite cool.  Definitely on a par with EQ2's, if not better.As for EQ2's models....  The female kerra are female erudites with a cat's head and a tail.  The ratonga are gnomes with rats' heads and tails.  Granted, frogloks, iksar, trolls, and male kerra are all unique models and, in their own way, attractive.  But to say EQ2's models are better than Vanguard's is a matter of =opinion= not =fact=.

[Vatec]

<cite>Lhangion@Innovation wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I love the look of my original model Ogre, thats a ugly monstrous brute <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> , soga doesn't look bad(ok for a warrior race but they don't look like the "juggernauts of war" imo)  but doesn't fit to my character, anyway i could accept some changes as long it still fits to my character.</p><p>Most important for me is the customization factor, should be at least as much as original models have on all of the new ones.</p></blockquote>I'll agree there.  But I really don't see new models having a negative impact on customization.  I doubt the heads will change, and that's where the majority of customization comes in, anyway.  Body customization mostly consists of choosing big<>small, skin color, and tattoos/woad/runes/whatever.  Can't see new skeletons changing that very much, but I could be wrong.As for the ogres ... the SOGA ones are definitely more "attractive" but, that being said, I still use the US models.  The SOGA ones just don't fit in with the US models and since I use US models for everything else....

[Vadja]

<cite>Willias@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Look at all the recent stuff (art-wise) that was put into the game.  IMO, a lot of it looks better than the old original EQ2 stuff.  Also, look at the art of the stuff coming in RoK.  That's why I have faith in the art team when it comes to new player models.  They're on a roll right now when it comes to making stuff look good.</blockquote><p>Seeing the EoF vampire and New Tunarian character models made me trust the art team a lot more, these are superb and I'm rather hoping the new models have something of that look to them.</p><p>Maybe it's a sign of the confidence SOE have in the new models that they are prepared to scrap both sets of current models. It does seem risky though; you only have look at the soga vs original models argument that flares up <i>every</i> <i>single time </i>there's even the slightest mention of them to see how personal peoples' preferences are (and how entrenched they are in them). </p><p>I'm wondering if there will be a huge outcry from everyone and we'll end up with three model options to choose from  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[ke'la]

<cite>Xavia@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Willias@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Look at all the recent stuff (art-wise) that was put into the game.  IMO, a lot of it looks better than the old original EQ2 stuff.  Also, look at the art of the stuff coming in RoK.  That's why I have faith in the art team when it comes to new player models.  They're on a roll right now when it comes to making stuff look good.</blockquote><p>Seeing the EoF vampire and New Tunarian character models made me trust the art team a lot more, these are superb and I'm rather hoping the new models have something of that look to them.</p><p>Maybe it's a sign of the confidence SOE have in the new models that they are prepared to scrap both sets of current models. It does seem risky though; you only have look at the soga vs original models argument that flares up <i>every</i> <i>single time </i>there's even the slightest mention of them to see how personal peoples' preferences are (and how entrenched they are in them). </p><p>I'm wondering if there will be a huge outcry from everyone and we'll end up with three model options to choose from  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>nope because the "old" models will be incompatable with the "new" models armor and such.

[toenukl]

<cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>But to say EQ2's models are better than Vanguard's is a matter of =opinion= not =fact=.</blockquote>Fair enough.

[Guy De Alsace]

<p>Whatever happens there will be the "OMG that rocks!" people and the "OMG that sucks!" people anyway. Be interesting to see how the numbers fall. My own very personal opinion is that I havent seen a single SOGA model that looked good yet. However I have seen plenty of awesome looking original models and some really good blends of SOGA hairstyles on original models. I already have a toon with new SOGA hair on original model body. So a blend of the best of the two may be good. </p><p>I'd dearly love to see the end-result of the revamp after all this talk. I havent seen a single screenshot though other than the sarnak.</p>

[Vatec]

<cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>But to say EQ2's models are better than Vanguard's is a matter of =opinion= not =fact=.</blockquote>Fair enough.</blockquote>The sad thing is, Vanguard's models had a =lot= more customizability at one point during beta.  But Sigil nerfed it because people were taking advantage of the system to make sideshow freak characters.Hopefully SOE learns from Sigil's experience:  if you're going to make body parts customizable, they can't be customizable independently of each other; otherwise, you wind up with characters with incredibly broad shoulders and teeny-weeny narrow little torsos, noses the size of potatoes, and legs that are shorter than the arms.If I had to make a wild guess, I'd say there's a -very- good chance SOE is looking at the Vanguard skeletal system and maybe even using parts of it.  It would make sense, considering they spent money to acquire the company, that they would want to make the most of its assets.Of course, maybe they are indeed reinventing the wheel....

[ke'la]

<cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Whatever happens there will be the "OMG that rocks!" people and the "OMG that sucks!" people anyway. Be interesting to see how the numbers fall. My own very personal opinion is that I havent seen a single SOGA model that looked good yet. However I have seen plenty of awesome looking original models and some really good blends of SOGA hairstyles on original models. I already have a toon with new SOGA hair on original model body. So a blend of the best of the two may be good. </p><p>I'd dearly love to see the end-result of the revamp after all this talk. I havent seen a single screenshot though other than the sarnak.</p></blockquote>The reason you have not seen a screenshot is because they are FAR from being ready, the one model that people have seen(including myself) was at Fan Fair durring 1 of the panels and it was still in an Apha stage and did have some major things still to work on, such as when you zoomed in and the Model was "Combate Grimising" there where holes in the face around the eyes and teeth, so even this model that was in a semi showable state is no where near ready for primetime.

[ke'la]

<cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>But to say EQ2's models are better than Vanguard's is a matter of =opinion= not =fact=.</blockquote>Fair enough.</blockquote>The sad thing is, Vanguard's models had a =lot= more customizability at one point during beta.  But Sigil nerfed it because people were taking advantage of the system to make sideshow freak characters.Hopefully SOE learns from Sigil's experience:  if you're going to make body parts customizable, they can't be customizable independently of each other; otherwise, you wind up with characters with incredibly broad shoulders and teeny-weeny narrow little torsos, noses the size of potatoes, and legs that are shorter than the arms.If I had to make a wild guess, I'd say there's a -very- good chance SOE is looking at the Vanguard skeletal system and maybe even using parts of it.  It would make sense, considering they spent money to acquire the company, that they would want to make the most of its assets.Of course, maybe they are indeed reinventing the wheel....</blockquote>I don't know SWG allows you to independantly change parts of your body like Waste and Bustline and you don't have that issue. The main reasion I think you had that issue in Vanguard Beta was that lovly bug where your caractor's appeance would randomize everytime you logged in.

[Vatec]

<cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>But to say EQ2's models are better than Vanguard's is a matter of =opinion= not =fact=.</blockquote>Fair enough.</blockquote>The sad thing is, Vanguard's models had a =lot= more customizability at one point during beta.  But Sigil nerfed it because people were taking advantage of the system to make sideshow freak characters.Hopefully SOE learns from Sigil's experience:  if you're going to make body parts customizable, they can't be customizable independently of each other; otherwise, you wind up with characters with incredibly broad shoulders and teeny-weeny narrow little torsos, noses the size of potatoes, and legs that are shorter than the arms.If I had to make a wild guess, I'd say there's a -very- good chance SOE is looking at the Vanguard skeletal system and maybe even using parts of it.  It would make sense, considering they spent money to acquire the company, that they would want to make the most of its assets.Of course, maybe they are indeed reinventing the wheel....</blockquote>I don't know SWG allows you to independantly change parts of your body like Waste and Bustline and you don't have that issue. The main reasion I think you had that issue in Vanguard Beta was that lovly bug where your caractor's appeance would randomize everytime you logged in.</blockquote>Yeah, that bug was annoying.  But it's not really what I'm talking about.  The old Vanguard boards had several threads about the "monstrosities."  The worst example was the half-elf with a jaw almost twice as wide as his forehead, a nose the size of a pickle, hands hanging down to his knees, shoulders about 4 feet wide with a tiny little torso about a foot across (so his arms were hanging about a foot away from his torso on either side.I'm guessing the SWG sliders are set in a narrow range so you can't make anything too outrageous.  That's what they ended up doing with the VG sliders.  Unfortunately, the end result was making almost every member of each race look alike.  Not much room for variation when you only have four hairstyles and four face skins and most of your sliders are capped so rigidly that you can barely see the variation between the low end and the high end....Still, at one point they had the models so that you could slap the same piece of armor on a burly orc or a slender wood elf and it would still look good.  If SOE can steal that from VG and make it work in EQ2, I would welcome it very much.

[ke'la]

<cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>But to say EQ2's models are better than Vanguard's is a matter of =opinion= not =fact=.</blockquote>Fair enough.</blockquote>The sad thing is, Vanguard's models had a =lot= more customizability at one point during beta.  But Sigil nerfed it because people were taking advantage of the system to make sideshow freak characters.Hopefully SOE learns from Sigil's experience:  if you're going to make body parts customizable, they can't be customizable independently of each other; otherwise, you wind up with characters with incredibly broad shoulders and teeny-weeny narrow little torsos, noses the size of potatoes, and legs that are shorter than the arms.If I had to make a wild guess, I'd say there's a -very- good chance SOE is looking at the Vanguard skeletal system and maybe even using parts of it.  It would make sense, considering they spent money to acquire the company, that they would want to make the most of its assets.Of course, maybe they are indeed reinventing the wheel....</blockquote>I don't know SWG allows you to independantly change parts of your body like Waste and Bustline and you don't have that issue. The main reasion I think you had that issue in Vanguard Beta was that lovly bug where your caractor's appeance would randomize everytime you logged in.</blockquote>Yeah, that bug was annoying.  But it's not really what I'm talking about.  The old Vanguard boards had several threads about the "monstrosities."  The worst example was the half-elf with a jaw almost twice as wide as his forehead, a nose the size of a pickle, hands hanging down to his knees, shoulders about 4 feet wide with a tiny little torso about a foot across (so his arms were hanging about a foot away from his torso on either side.I'm guessing the SWG sliders are set in a narrow range so you can't make anything too outrageous.  That's what they ended up doing with the VG sliders.  Unfortunately, the end result was making almost every member of each race look alike.  Not much room for variation when you only have four hairstyles and four face skins and most of your sliders are capped so rigidly that you can barely see the variation between the low end and the high end....Still, at one point they had the models so that you could slap the same piece of armor on a burly orc or a slender wood elf and it would still look good.  If SOE can steal that from VG and make it work in EQ2, I would welcome it very much.</blockquote><p>Accually the sliders where not that restrained you could have a VERY Busty Woman with almost no Waste or an Santa Bellied Fat guy, but other parts like arms and jaws where perposonatly restrained(you could have a square jawed or Chinless person but the jaw was always in perpotion with the face) or not changeable(arm leanght and possably Leg lenght to a point where detrimined by player hight).</p><p>Personally, I think that the SWG caractor options(from an Image Designer) where some of the best available in any MMO, and you had the added benifit thier of having a "pro" do your look so once you went to an ID you almost always left looking good(unless you bugged the heck out of them<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> )as they took pride in making players look good.</p>