Reinforcement early-why?

[Ferunnia]

If what I know about game mechanics is true, why would anyone bother casting reinforcement when they are number 1 on the hate list? Unless reinforcement can give you more positions ahead of the next in line (sounds silly eh?) Then the 200 and something extra hate you get from the proc isn't all that much. If you've got agi spec and have two aes I don't see needing it on the pull. I usually save mine for the moment when all the big hits go off on a mob or for adds that come while the healer is in the middle of a big heal, to make sure I get straight to the top of the hate list.Give me your opinions on this, because it's making no sense to me why anyone would burn reinforcement on the pull when if their dps isn't stupid, they'll wait for the guardian to get aggro anyways....and the healers shouldn't be prehealing unless you don't have to body pull.

[lCUBANOl]

You argue DPS isnt stupid but some could argue your holding your dps back. Let your warlock go nuts as long with everyone else on the pull.  Chances are if your dps doesnt suck after 13secs the mob is going to be pretty trashed. But ya dont hold your dps back to give you time to get hate. Kill mobs faster and cut the raid zone times in half

[spa]

Reinforcement for the pull, sure if you dont have any hate bufferage...

[Docimodo]

<p>Why would you have dps wait at all when you can get miles ahead of others with a cacaphonied reinforcement! </p><p>With hate buffs it's a tad more than what is listed also. I wouldn't use directly on the pull but a few moments after and always before losing aggro (unless it is a memwiping mob ofc).</p>

[Wilin]

<p>Encounters with lots of mobs and no AGI line = reinforcement+Beseige+goading assault while everyone is going nuts on their AEs.</p>

[Ferunnia]

Like I said, 300 some odd hate on each hit just isn't that much to burn reinforcement on. I'm not asking people to tell me I'm holding my dps back, because trust me, I burn through any and all instances I do and stop only for my dps to get mana. I'm wanting a mechanics reason for burning reinforcement on the pull. I'd rather burn it when I need it than spam it...I hold aggro with my guard quite well without it. It's a butt-saver more than anything...I toss up protection as my first taunt, accel strike, three quick cas then all three aes...while proccing the frontal ae off the agi line...I've pulled named with a brigand burning through the adds and not lost aggro to the brig...and that's without reinforcement...then again I like to cycle through mobs even in just normal mob groups, not to mention named groups. If the dps can't figure out that I want em to stay on the first mob and burn it down, then that makes em stupid if I've told em how I want them to do it.Also, I ain't talking about waiting 10 or so seconds for aggro, more like 2-3 seconds after I've pulled the mob back if it's a body pull and almost immediately if i can pull with a taunt/ae combo. All this is asked in regards to grouping, not raiding btw...maybe I should have said that in the first place. I don't lose aggro on raids period, because I'm doing everything within a guardian's power to hold aggro, trust me.What I meant by stupid dpsers is like a warlock burning devastation (whatever the higher version is, I forget, but their massive aoe) while I'm pulling or some crap.I constantly have groupmembers amazed at my aggro holding ability and am usually close to the top of the parse if not the top in almost all my groups unless I'm fighting orange con crap. I play my class well because I make the effort to know every nuance of every spell...and am simply wondering what good it does you to burn reinforcement when you are already top of the hate list. Like my first post said, I don't think you can get additional slots above the rest of the group on the hate list, i.e. there being three hate list slots between you and the highest dpser...because as far as I'm aware, that's not how the hate list works. Final word is, why burn it on the pull, if it may serve you better later on when the slower casting people's aoes and such catch up to our initial dps.

[Yourbestfriend]

<cite>Ferunnia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like I said, 300 some odd hate on each hit just isn't that much to burn reinforcement on. I'm not asking people to tell me I'm holding my dps back, because trust me, I burn through any and all instances I do and stop only for my dps to get mana. I'm wanting a mechanics reason for burning reinforcement on the pull. I'd rather burn it when I need it than spam it...I hold aggro with my guard quite well without it. It's a butt-saver more than anything...I toss up protection as my first taunt, accel strike, three quick cas then all three aes...while proccing the frontal ae off the agi line...I've pulled named with a brigand burning through the adds and not lost aggro to the brig...and that's without reinforcement...then again I like to cycle through mobs even in just normal mob groups, not to mention named groups. If the dps can't figure out that I want em to stay on the first mob and burn it down, then that makes em stupid if I've told em how I want them to do it.Also, I ain't talking about waiting 10 or so seconds for aggro, more like 2-3 seconds after I've pulled the mob back if it's a body pull and almost immediately if i can pull with a taunt/ae combo. All this is asked in regards to grouping, not raiding btw...maybe I should have said that in the first place. I don't lose aggro on raids period, because I'm doing everything within a guardian's power to hold aggro, trust me.What I meant by stupid dpsers is like a warlock burning devastation (whatever the higher version is, I forget, but their massive aoe) while I'm pulling or some crap.I constantly have groupmembers amazed at my aggro holding ability and am usually close to the top of the parse if not the top in almost all my groups unless I'm fighting orange con crap. I play my class well because I make the effort to know every nuance of every spell...and am simply wondering what good it does you to burn reinforcement when you are already top of the hate list. Like my first post said, I don't think you can get additional slots above the rest of the group on the hate list, i.e. there being three hate list slots between you and the highest dpser...because as far as I'm aware, that's not how the hate list works. Final word is, why burn it on the pull, if it may serve you better later on when the slower casting people's aoes and such catch up to our initial dps.</blockquote>You are never allowed to post here again, stay off my forums.

[Ferunnia]

If I'm talking crazy talk, enlighten me, oh wise one. Just doesn't make much sense to me as far as I explained.

[lCUBANOl]

Are you asking a legitimate question or bragging about your tanking abilities? DO whatever works for you. Some raid forces prefer to burn [I cannot control my vocabulary] the second its pulled and reinforcement+cacco is neccesarry at the start when the raid dps is 40k+ on aoe encounters.Also Im not 100% sure you know what reinforcement does. Its not the hate attached to it its the position you move up every attack.

[Ferunnia]

Yep, I know what it does, not really here to brag, just defending the fact that I don't [Removed for Content] my groups dps, and am seriously asking for anyone's reason why they would cast it when they're on top of the hate list. The fact that it bumps our hate position and does really jack for aggro off the aggro part is why I even asked my original question. I mean if I were raiding, I'd make it a priority to get on vent with a warlock and have em go full burn as soon as I could get plant down then pop reinforcement to top the hate list...I know the ins and outs of using the spell I believe, I've just seen a lot of people talk about burning it on the pull and am curious.

[lCUBANOl]

Because generally when a warlock has its timers its doing anywhere from 5-8k dps during those moments with all their [Removed for Content] going off you probably wont be on top of the hate list. And the hate means nothing at all on the reinforcement, you could take off your weapon and hold aggro with reinforcement using your bear hands, its just the position. What kind of dps is your guild doing?

[Zo]

you're asking about a raid topic and how it pertains to grouping...  ask any raid tank how much trouble they have with group aggro, lol.  or if they even group.

[Khurghan]

Elhonna, how much DPS are you guys doing in EoF zones?

[Bravesinger]

<cite>Ferunnia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like I said, 300 some odd hate on each hit just isn't that much to burn reinforcement on. I'm not asking people to tell me I'm holding my dps back, because trust me, I burn through any and all instances I do and stop only for my dps to get mana. I'm wanting a mechanics reason for burning reinforcement on the pull. I'd rather burn it when I need it than spam it...I hold aggro with my guard quite well without it. It's a butt-saver more than anything...I toss up protection as my first taunt, accel strike, three quick cas then all three aes...while proccing the frontal ae off the agi line...I've pulled named with a brigand burning through the adds and not lost aggro to the brig...and that's without reinforcement...then again I like to cycle through mobs even in just normal mob groups, not to mention named groups. If the dps can't figure out that I want em to stay on the first mob and burn it down, then that makes em stupid if I've told em how I want them to do it.Also, I ain't talking about waiting 10 or so seconds for aggro, more like 2-3 seconds after I've pulled the mob back if it's a body pull and almost immediately if i can pull with a taunt/ae combo. All this is asked in regards to grouping, not raiding btw...maybe I should have said that in the first place. I don't lose aggro on raids period, because I'm doing everything within a guardian's power to hold aggro, trust me.What I meant by stupid dpsers is like a warlock burning devastation (whatever the higher version is, I forget, but their massive aoe) while I'm pulling or some crap.I constantly have groupmembers amazed at my aggro holding ability and am usually close to the top of the parse if not the top in almost all my groups unless I'm fighting orange con crap. I play my class well because I make the effort to know every nuance of every spell...and am simply wondering what good it does you to burn reinforcement when you are already top of the hate list. Like my first post said, I don't think you can get additional slots above the rest of the group on the hate list, i.e. there being three hate list slots between you and the highest dpser...because as far as I'm aware, that's not how the hate list works. Final word is, why burn it on the pull, if it may serve you better later on when the slower casting people's aoes and such catch up to our initial dps.</blockquote>And now I want to tell you something: In a group a guardian should never loose aggro, because noone gets the best buffs for their class. But in a raid, the setup can be made in such a way, that the average dps goes up with more than 100%. Our taunts will not go up with the same amount, so it is way tougher to keep aggro in a raid. And one more thing: an orange epicx4 will resist alot of the initial taunts until it is debuffed, so sometimes it isn't a choice but a rule to use reinforcement 3 secs into the fight.

[Tid]

<cite>Jaraxx@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ferunnia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like I said, 300 some odd hate on each hit just isn't that much to burn reinforcement on. I'm not asking people to tell me I'm holding my dps back, because trust me, I burn through any and all instances I do and stop only for my dps to get mana. I'm wanting a mechanics reason for burning reinforcement on the pull. I'd rather burn it when I need it than spam it...I hold aggro with my guard quite well without it. It's a butt-saver more than anything...I toss up protection as my first taunt, accel strike, three quick cas then all three aes...while proccing the frontal ae off the agi line...I've pulled named with a brigand burning through the adds and not lost aggro to the brig...and that's without reinforcement...then again I like to cycle through mobs even in just normal mob groups, not to mention named groups. If the dps can't figure out that I want em to stay on the first mob and burn it down, then that makes em stupid if I've told em how I want them to do it.Also, I ain't talking about waiting 10 or so seconds for aggro, more like 2-3 seconds after I've pulled the mob back if it's a body pull and almost immediately if i can pull with a taunt/ae combo. All this is asked in regards to grouping, not raiding btw...maybe I should have said that in the first place. I don't lose aggro on raids period, because I'm doing everything within a guardian's power to hold aggro, trust me.What I meant by stupid dpsers is like a warlock burning devastation (whatever the higher version is, I forget, but their massive aoe) while I'm pulling or some crap.I constantly have groupmembers amazed at my aggro holding ability and am usually close to the top of the parse if not the top in almost all my groups unless I'm fighting orange con crap. I play my class well because I make the effort to know every nuance of every spell...and am simply wondering what good it does you to burn reinforcement when you are already top of the hate list. Like my first post said, I don't think you can get additional slots above the rest of the group on the hate list, i.e. there being three hate list slots between you and the highest dpser...because as far as I'm aware, that's not how the hate list works. Final word is, why burn it on the pull, if it may serve you better later on when the slower casting people's aoes and such catch up to our initial dps.</blockquote>You are never allowed to post here again, stay off my forums.</blockquote>Quaility trolling there! Totally agree too!

[Bramwe]

<cite>Tidel@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jaraxx@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ferunnia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like I said, 300 some odd hate on each hit just isn't that much to burn reinforcement on. I'm not asking people to tell me I'm holding my dps back, because trust me, I burn through any and all instances I do and stop only for my dps to get mana. I'm wanting a mechanics reason for burning reinforcement on the pull. I'd rather burn it when I need it than spam it...I hold aggro with my guard quite well without it. It's a butt-saver more than anything...I toss up protection as my first taunt, accel strike, three quick cas then all three aes...while proccing the frontal ae off the agi line...I've pulled named with a brigand burning through the adds and not lost aggro to the brig...and that's without reinforcement...then again I like to cycle through mobs even in just normal mob groups, not to mention named groups. If the dps can't figure out that I want em to stay on the first mob and burn it down, then that makes em stupid if I've told em how I want them to do it.Also, I ain't talking about waiting 10 or so seconds for aggro, more like 2-3 seconds after I've pulled the mob back if it's a body pull and almost immediately if i can pull with a taunt/ae combo. All this is asked in regards to grouping, not raiding btw...maybe I should have said that in the first place. I don't lose aggro on raids period, because I'm doing everything within a guardian's power to hold aggro, trust me.What I meant by stupid dpsers is like a warlock burning devastation (whatever the higher version is, I forget, but their massive aoe) while I'm pulling or some crap.I constantly have groupmembers amazed at my aggro holding ability and am usually close to the top of the parse if not the top in almost all my groups unless I'm fighting orange con crap. I play my class well because I make the effort to know every nuance of every spell...and am simply wondering what good it does you to burn reinforcement when you are already top of the hate list. Like my first post said, I don't think you can get additional slots above the rest of the group on the hate list, i.e. there being three hate list slots between you and the highest dpser...because as far as I'm aware, that's not how the hate list works. Final word is, why burn it on the pull, if it may serve you better later on when the slower casting people's aoes and such catch up to our initial dps.</blockquote>You are never allowed to post here again, stay off my forums.</blockquote>Quaility trolling there! Totally agree too! </blockquote>He just wants another forum vacation <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kasar]

<cite>Bravesinger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ferunnia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like I said, 300 some odd hate on each hit just isn't that much to burn reinforcement on. I'm not asking people to tell me I'm holding my dps back, because trust me, I burn through any and all instances I do and stop only for my dps to get mana. I'm wanting a mechanics reason for burning reinforcement on the pull. I'd rather burn it when I need it than spam it...I hold aggro with my guard quite well without it. It's a butt-saver more than anything...I toss up protection as my first taunt, accel strike, three quick cas then all three aes...while proccing the frontal ae off the agi line...I've pulled named with a brigand burning through the adds and not lost aggro to the brig...and that's without reinforcement...then again I like to cycle through mobs even in just normal mob groups, not to mention named groups. If the dps can't figure out that I want em to stay on the first mob and burn it down, then that makes em stupid if I've told em how I want them to do it.Also, I ain't talking about waiting 10 or so seconds for aggro, more like 2-3 seconds after I've pulled the mob back if it's a body pull and almost immediately if i can pull with a taunt/ae combo. All this is asked in regards to grouping, not raiding btw...maybe I should have said that in the first place. I don't lose aggro on raids period, because I'm doing everything within a guardian's power to hold aggro, trust me.What I meant by stupid dpsers is like a warlock burning devastation (whatever the higher version is, I forget, but their massive aoe) while I'm pulling or some crap.I constantly have groupmembers amazed at my aggro holding ability and am usually close to the top of the parse if not the top in almost all my groups unless I'm fighting orange con crap. I play my class well because I make the effort to know every nuance of every spell...and am simply wondering what good it does you to burn reinforcement when you are already top of the hate list. Like my first post said, I don't think you can get additional slots above the rest of the group on the hate list, i.e. there being three hate list slots between you and the highest dpser...because as far as I'm aware, that's not how the hate list works. Final word is, why burn it on the pull, if it may serve you better later on when the slower casting people's aoes and such catch up to our initial dps.</blockquote>And now I want to tell you something: In a group a guardian should never loose aggro, because noone gets the best buffs for their class. But in a raid, the setup can be made in such a way, that the average dps goes up with more than 100%. Our taunts will not go up with the same amount, so it is way tougher to keep aggro in a raid. And one more thing: an orange epicx4 will resist alot of the initial taunts until it is debuffed, so sometimes it isn't a choice but a rule to use reinforcement 3 secs into the fight.</blockquote>If you're topping the parse, there's no need for reinforcement at all.  Those 20k+ crits from the squishies don't matter.Really though, I usually wait 10 seconds or so for the dps spam about fusion and things on their way.  Resisted taunts on the pull are a different matter, gotta save the defiler.

[spa]

<p>Just cast both taunts (confront, protection) on the pull or while your positioning the mob with auto-attack on, then cycle from your biggest hitter CA's, to debuffs, to small hitters, then maybe hit Plant while waiting on recasts. That works for me holding aggro against usually 35k raid dps and sometimes peaking upto 40k-ish against single mob encounters, with Dirge and either a Swashy or Assassin in group. Using Defense stance, a hate proc cloak, shield, chest, earrings, STR/AGI Warrior lines with Guardian Dbl attack and Block lines. If i lose aggro then its probably because the Rogues/Predators arnt spamming their deaggro's while spamming their CA's, or the Wizards dont have a Troubs deaggro.</p><p>Usually, the only time i need Reinforcement is to help with memwipes, or after a charm effect, or on mobs when the Necro uses his Lifeburn shortly after ive positioned the mob.</p>