Raiding: Why the hate? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Ranja

09-05-2007, 03:27 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bramwell@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>IMO it comes down to the fact that raiders generally get to spend more time in game than non raiders for whatever reason instead of working or dealing with RL crap. Sort of the same reason people get jealous of those who may have a ton of money or great looks. It is because not everyone can do it and that usually results in people getting upset. If everyone could do it then there would be no problem/resentment.Edit...and I like the point made below also.</blockquote>This is coming from a raider but this is simply not true. Most raids will only be a few hours in duration. Lately I have been leveling a new character on a different server, the amount of time I spend on my raiding toon has been anywhere from 1-4 hours at a time. I think this would be a good measuring stick of the time involved in raiding for anyone.And I am happy to have a discussion with people to try and clear up some of the misconceptions of raiders and raiding. </blockquote>Aye, agree with the above. Just because you have tons of time to play, does not mean you raid. My raid guild is very structured. We raid three times a week in 3 hour time blocks. Some weeks I only have time to play once and that is a raid. So that week my playtime was 3 hours for the whole week. That raiding takes a ton of time is a misconception that is really forwarded by the casual guilds that try to raid. For a casual guild that tries to raid ( like my first guild) it can be disastrous. Raid zones take forever because of all the dying, it take forever to organize raid and get people to zone in point. Really what attracted me to my current guild is that it is extremely organized. Raids start and end on time as scheduled. If I had not joined them I would probably not be playing EQ2 now.So really in order to be a successful raid guild you need to be organized but this does not equate to spending endless hours in front of the computer. It actually means you can spend less time in front of the computer: D

Lionidas

09-05-2007, 03:35 PM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem is, raiding tends to define the end game, such that all other end game activities (ie, everything you do after you've hit the level cap) are balanced against raiding in terms of loot quality and rewards. The assumption is that raiding carries the greatest risk, and thus must provide the best rewards, while other forms of gameplay are inferior and thus cannot provide any sort of real reward that infringes upon the quality of raid-level gear.Raiding as a whole has come to dominate PvE games - it's not limited to EQ2 by any means - and thus we see a severe lack of creativity in end-game activities. The progression of virtually all PvE games is from solo early to grouping in the mid levels to raiding at the end. Rarely do these games offer any other sorts of playstyles, nor do they offer rewards or meaningful advancement options for those who attempt to pursue alternate playstyles. There are so many possibilities for types of gameplay in MMOs that it seems such a waste of potential to see developers churn out EQ clones one after another. </blockquote>The progression of items is always a hot topic among everyone. The reason behind itemization being balanced against raid loot is due to raid mobs in general hit harder and have more health. If a solo mob would hit you for 12k and a raid mob would hit you for 1k this would not hold water or if you could kill a raid mob in 2 swings of your sword.I imagine that most of the reasoning behind loot is that it can trivialize lesser encounters. If on the other hand, loot was designed specifically around the tier of the mob there would be less of an issue. For example an Axe that drops from a raid would have a proc that only worked against epics. This would ensure that the owner would not be able to one shot the boss of Unrest but still hold its value in a raid setting.As far as raiding involving the greatest risk, I would define it more as the greatest challenge. When you increase the number of people involved in a project it also increases the amount of variables that could go wrong. You need to rely on 23 other people to do a distinct action at a certain time or everything falls apart. The complexity of what a raid has to offer or should offer is much greater than a single person killing a single non-heroic mob.

Bramwe

09-05-2007, 03:38 PM

<cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bramwell@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>IMO it comes down to the fact that raiders generally get to spend more time in game than non raiders for whatever reason instead of working or dealing with RL crap. Sort of the same reason people get jealous of those who may have a ton of money or great looks. It is because not everyone can do it and that usually results in people getting upset. If everyone could do it then there would be no problem/resentment.Edit...and I like the point made below also.</blockquote>This is coming from a raider but this is simply not true. Most raids will only be a few hours in duration. Lately I have been leveling a new character on a different server, the amount of time I spend on my raiding toon has been anywhere from 1-4 hours at a time. I think this would be a good measuring stick of the time involved in raiding for anyone.And I am happy to have a discussion with people to try and clear up some of the misconceptions of raiders and raiding. </blockquote>Aye, agree with the above. Just because you have tons of time to play, does not mean you raid. My raid guild is very structured. We raid three times a week in 3 hour time blocks. Some weeks I only have time to play once and that is a raid. So that week my playtime was 3 hours for the whole week. That raiding takes a ton of time is a misconception that is really forwarded by the casual guilds that try to raid. For a casual guild that tries to raid ( like my first guild) it can be disastrous. Raid zones take forever because of all the dying, it take forever to organize raid and get people to zone in point. Really what attracted me to my current guild is that it is extremely organized. Raids start and end on time as scheduled. If I had not joined them I would probably not be playing EQ2 now.So really in order to be a successful raid guild you need to be organized but this does not equate to spending endless hours in front of the computer. It actually means you can spend less time in front of the computer: D</blockquote>Well I was just basing it on my experience...I am able to raid about 2 times per week if I want. The only feeling I ever have when I look at players who are in hardcore raiding guilds is..."I wish I had the time to do that". There are a couple guilds on my server who's players are decked out in fabled EoF set gear. That is one item per person per raid for each slot. In my mind that equals out to a lot of raid time. More than 1-4 hours here and there of raiding. No one gets decked out in Fabled EoF gear raiding 3 hours per week. Maybe that's all the time needed now or for a new player to a guild who has put in the time. It took time to learn the zones and get 15+ slots worth of gear filled for 24 people. Anyone who has the gear that makes me think this is in a guild that raids starting at 6-7pm every night with like 80%+ required attendance.

Lionidas

09-05-2007, 03:45 PM

<cite>Denaso@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>My post wasn't really directed at you so much as it was directed at the inevitable posts that are yet to come . . . . But, since the thread is going well so far, I'll add my experience. My guild is small, only like 25 unique accounts, it's very difficult for us to get everyone online together to go do raids. I left a larger guild that was doing raids for this guild because I really enjoy playing with the people in it. We do raids whenever we can but it's pretty rare for us and when we are able to do them they are mostly tier 3 and 4 raids. It'll be months more before we can even think about seriously doing end game raids.I used to get gear lust but I realized that if my gear is good enough to help me accomplish the things that I enjoy doing than there's no reason to lust after the stuff that I can't get without leaving, or fundamentally changing, my guild.As long as the game developers continue to make awesome fun content for all levels of players I have no problem with them making new raid instances. I think that a lot of people who can't raid get [Removed for Content] because they feel like the developers neglect the non-raiding game.</blockquote>No problem, I was hoping to shed some insight into the subject on both ends.Sincerely, if you have a regular group that you can do the EoF group instances you can pick up a few other people and try Labs or even Courts. You do not need specific classes or any stratagy, you just need the basics like tank, heals, power regen and dps.And please trust me when I say you do not need fabled gear to give it a try! Up until a few weeks ago I was still wearing Strongbear Steelskin Shoulders and Awakened Scalelord Sabatons. I am the main tank of a guild that was killing most named in EoF zones.

BungFoo

09-05-2007, 03:55 PM

We only have like 3 70s and only two or three more that are above 50 who play regularly. We play really well together though and are basically fearless so I'm sure we'll be giving that stuff a go pretty soon.

Aurumn

09-05-2007, 03:56 PM

Here's my 2cp from a (very) casual player.I play mostly solo, although I've been getting to the point where I might be able to group a little more. I play in the evenings after work between roughly 8pm and 11pm EST. Some days I'm on for an hour, sometimes 3 hours. Usually weeknights are spent harvesting or crafting. On the weekends I pop in and out throughout the day, usually questing or running about to help guildies when the opportunity arises. Also, I play multiple characters. I mainly concentrate on 3 of them, but I switch things up depending on my mood.Here are the main things that I feel currently block me from raiding:<ol><li>I have ZERO interest in racing to 70. I've never played ANY games this way. I love to explore, quest and learn my class. Crafting to tweak my gear and earn coin is another hobby of mine.</li><li>I refuse to schedule playtime like it's my job. I pop in when I want to, for as long as I feel like playing, on the days I want to play. Some days I play other games. Sometimes I'd rather spend time with my husband/pets or I have other RL responsibilities to deal with. I've spontaneouly joined up on a few small ventures like helping to camp stuff for HQ's, but nothing high level (see #1... my "main" is level 35).</li><li>I am not driven to get the endgame loot or top the leaderboards. I play for my own enjoyment and stress relief. I have no interest in outparsing anyone or seeing how I stack up to other toons/players. I may get to a point where I feel like jumping into the fray, but right now... not so much.</li></ol>I don't group much because I have to be flexible as to when I can log in or out. I don't want to take the trouble to gather a group (or join one) and then have to log after 20 minutes. That and it seems most folks are looking to XP grind and I specifically don't want to out level my quests so I end up opting out so I don't hold them back. My playstyle isn't currently suited to raiding so I don't do it. I know folks say raiding is nothing like the hideously long camps back in EQ1, but frankly over an hour is too long for me unless it's a weekend and I have absolutely nothing else going on at home. That being said, I have nothing against raiders or anyone whose playstyle differs from mine so long as they don't try to stamp out all other playstyles in their bid to improve their own. Asserting that Endgame is more important than "low level" content or vice versa is to a degree selfish IMHO. A combination of the two is what builds and retains the player base.

Xas

09-05-2007, 03:58 PM

Mainly talking about the hardcore version here. Usually, they whine the most, and want the game geared towards them, then look down at everyone else. Not to mention if you listen in on TS, some of them are the most foul mouthed children you ever had to listen to, as in big babies. I tried a hardcore raiding guild that started out in VG, and I didn't last a week. I never even grouped with them, but quit simply from what I had to listen to on TS and in /gu.

Vith

09-05-2007, 04:01 PM

Hate is too strong a word for such a small issue. As a hardcore casual <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I do dislike the raiding playstyle for a few reasons.<div></div><div>1. Exclusive to players. "SKs are undesirable." "You don't bring enough to the raid." I feel multiplayer games should be inclusive and allow players of all types to work together without a lot of restrictions. I come from UO originally, where there were no 'groups', just lots of 'solo' players working together to do things, and even new players/characters could contribute to the 'not-group'.</div><div></div><div>2. Exclusive content. Raiders can always go solo something. Soloers can't generally raid. I guess you can make the case for pickup raids, but if a solo player isn't geared and specced for raiding, it's not going to go well. And in cases like mine, one reason I don't raid is simply time commitments. It's unfair to a raid if I'm tanking for them and suddenly get an idea for a song and go afk for a couple hours to record it.</div><div></div><div>Nowhere does jealousy or any other factor I commonly hear attributed to casual players enter into the equation. I like that EQ2 supports multiple playstyles, it's a great thing and the dev team are the best in the business in my opinion. They've really turned what was a casual-unfriendly game into the best mmo in the marketplace.</div><div></div><div>My main wishes are that raiders would be more open to sub-optimal groups and that content would be loosened up some. There is already a degree of this when you can pick solo/heroic/epic instances on zone-in, more of the same would benefit the game greatly by allowing players of all stripes to experience the breadth of content EQ2 offers.</div>

Lionidas

09-05-2007, 04:02 PM

<cite>Bramwell@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bramwell@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>IMO it comes down to the fact that raiders generally get to spend more time in game than non raiders for whatever reason instead of working or dealing with RL crap. Sort of the same reason people get jealous of those who may have a ton of money or great looks. It is because not everyone can do it and that usually results in people getting upset. If everyone could do it then there would be no problem/resentment.Edit...and I like the point made below also.</blockquote>This is coming from a raider but this is simply not true. Most raids will only be a few hours in duration. Lately I have been leveling a new character on a different server, the amount of time I spend on my raiding toon has been anywhere from 1-4 hours at a time. I think this would be a good measuring stick of the time involved in raiding for anyone.And I am happy to have a discussion with people to try and clear up some of the misconceptions of raiders and raiding. </blockquote>Aye, agree with the above. Just because you have tons of time to play, does not mean you raid. My raid guild is very structured. We raid three times a week in 3 hour time blocks. Some weeks I only have time to play once and that is a raid. So that week my playtime was 3 hours for the whole week. That raiding takes a ton of time is a misconception that is really forwarded by the casual guilds that try to raid. For a casual guild that tries to raid ( like my first guild) it can be disastrous. Raid zones take forever because of all the dying, it take forever to organize raid and get people to zone in point. Really what attracted me to my current guild is that it is extremely organized. Raids start and end on time as scheduled. If I had not joined them I would probably not be playing EQ2 now.So really in order to be a successful raid guild you need to be organized but this does not equate to spending endless hours in front of the computer. It actually means you can spend less time in front of the computer: D</blockquote>Well I was just basing it on my experience...I am able to raid about 2 times per week if I want. The only feeling I ever have when I look at players who are in hardcore raiding guilds is..."I wish I had the time to do that". There are a couple guilds on my server who's players are decked out in fabled EoF set gear. That is one item per person per raid for each slot. In my mind that equals out to a lot of raid time. More than 1-4 hours here and there of raiding. No one gets decked out in Fabled EoF gear raiding 3 hours per week. Maybe that's all the time needed now or for a new player to a guild who has put in the time. It took time to learn the zones and get 15+ slots worth of gear filled for 24 people. Anyone who has the gear that makes me think this is in a guild that raids starting at 6-7pm every night with like 80%+ required attendance.</blockquote>Of course there are some guilds that require more than others. In our guild we require 3 raids per week. Even with that requirement we have many members that have joined and within their first few raids acquired items because the other members already had them. This was made even easier now with the implementation of "Smart Loot" in the EoF zones. In fact so easy that if the situation was right a person could be fully geared in as little as 2 raids.Another thing that stands out is again the perception of loot and the tag that goes along with it. True "Hardcore" raiders do not bother with what an item is labeled and use the best item regardless of where it came from. I would like to point out one of the most influential players from the raiding community and the leader of what is considered one of the top raiding guilds in the game <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=427219107" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Calagin</a>. Notice that he wearing items that many people may have sold to a merchant and discarded as trash. The Mystical Orb of the Invoker is a collection quest, the Bone-clasped Girdle is an HQ and X'haviz's Gown of Glory comes from a single group instance. These are some of the best items in the game and are obtainable by anyone.

KBern

09-05-2007, 04:03 PM

<cite>Aurumn@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here are the main things that I feel currently block me from raiding:<ol><li>I have ZERO interest in racing to 70. I've never played ANY games this way. I love to explore, quest and learn my class. Crafting to tweak my gear and earn coin is another hobby of mine.</li><li>I refuse to schedule playtime like it's my job. I pop in when I want to, for as long as I feel like playing, on the days I want to play. Some days I play other games. Sometimes I'd rather spend time with my husband/pets or I have other RL responsibilities to deal with. I've spontaneouly joined up on a few small ventures like helping to camp stuff for HQ's, but nothing high level (see #1... my "main" is level 35).</li><li>I am not driven to get the endgame loot or top the leaderboards. I play for my own enjoyment and stress relief. I have no interest in outparsing anyone or seeing how I stack up to other toons/players. I may get to a point where I feel like jumping into the fray, but right now... not so much.</li></ol></blockquote>I can see your point with 1 and 3. You do have to be max level with maxed AA's to really be a successful raid member. You also need to be driven to see the endgame and equip your character with the best loots, not strictly wanting to see your name on the leaderboards.Point 2 is the part that I think confuses me the most. When it comes to a video game, people always toss out the "it is not a job thing", very true.But weekly poker nights, softball games, trips to the gym, television shows (fit more before Tivo and DVR's), etc. all have to be scheduled in most cases. Same for a raid, if you want to raid with 24 other people, a time needs to be set....it has nothing to do with treating it like a job.

Lionidas

09-05-2007, 04:15 PM

<cite>Xasdf wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mainly talking about the hardcore version here. Usually, they whine the most, and want the game geared towards them, then look down at everyone else. Not to mention if you listen in on TS, some of them are the most foul mouthed children you ever had to listen to, as in big babies. I tried a hardcore raiding guild that started out in VG, and I didn't last a week. I never even grouped with them, but quit simply from what I had to listen to on TS and in /gu.</blockquote>I would have to say that the same could apply to any group really. In every aspect of the game you see people that are outspoken for their point of view. And I would have to say that I do not think a large majority of the raiding community wants the game tailored to raiding. Most of us do quests, craft and enjoy the lore aspect of the game as much as anyone else. I think it may be a misinterpretation of raiders wanting the raid content to be more complex and require more thought while at the same time having to go through specific steps to reach the final goal. We all would be quite upset if everything we could do required 24 people.And with the TS thing, that again would fall on the small percentage of raiders. My guild is mostly all adults with jobs and families. We have both males and females on our Vent, including my wife. In Vent we keep our swearing to a minimum and during raids we focus on the task at hand. I would imagine that most raid guilds are the same.

Lionidas

09-05-2007, 04:28 PM

<cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aurumn@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here are the main things that I feel currently block me from raiding:<ol><li>I have ZERO interest in racing to 70. I've never played ANY games this way. I love to explore, quest and learn my class. Crafting to tweak my gear and earn coin is another hobby of mine.</li><li>I refuse to schedule playtime like it's my job. I pop in when I want to, for as long as I feel like playing, on the days I want to play. Some days I play other games. Sometimes I'd rather spend time with my husband/pets or I have other RL responsibilities to deal with. I've spontaneouly joined up on a few small ventures like helping to camp stuff for HQ's, but nothing high level (see #1... my "main" is level 35).</li><li>I am not driven to get the endgame loot or top the leaderboards. I play for my own enjoyment and stress relief. I have no interest in outparsing anyone or seeing how I stack up to other toons/players. I may get to a point where I feel like jumping into the fray, but right now... not so much.</li></ol></blockquote>I can see your point with 1 and 3. You do have to be max level with maxed AA's to really be a successful raid member. You also need to be driven to see the endgame and equip your character with the best loots, not strictly wanting to see your name on the leaderboards.Point 2 is the part that I think confuses me the most. When it comes to a video game, people always toss out the "it is not a job thing", very true.But weekly poker nights, softball games, trips to the gym, television shows (fit more before Tivo and DVR's), etc. all have to be scheduled in most cases. Same for a raid, if you want to raid with 24 other people, a time needs to be set....it has nothing to do with treating it like a job.</blockquote>Aurumn and Saurakk, great points. I would like to embelish a little too. 1. As I pointed out in a prior post, loot for the most part is secondary. You do not need uber loot to raid at all. I would take a person in legendary gear that knows his toon inside and out and that works well with others over a fully fabled player that did the opposite. Anyone that can play their class well will do well on raids once they get the hang of it.2. Saurakk awesome comparison on point 2. Raiding and even playing EQ2 is a form of entertainment. And just like all the other forms sometimes you need to plan in advance what you would like to do. To me raiding is the closest to playing sports I have experienced without involving sports. It requires a team of people working in coordination with each other in order to win against a team that is determined to stop them. The feeling you get when you do what was at one time considered impossible and being able to share that with a large amount of friends is an awesome feeling.

Ama

09-05-2007, 04:37 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I'm seriously wondering what is stopping anyone from raiding. This is not a casual vs raider or anything of that matter and is not my intent.</blockquote>Some raids out there take a long time if your in an in-experienced group or your doing a raid zone for the first time. First time I ever did labs it took the raid 7hrs to complete it. Now with the raid i'm in it takes only 3hrs and even then 3hrs is alot of time to some people. However the problem is content is being diluted imho and it may reach the point where you have 2 ends instead of 3. You will have the solo activists preaching their crap, banging their books, etc... demanding that more than 50% of the content of the game be soloable. Already in EoF alot of content is soloable including some quests that proclaim themselves to be "Heroic". After that you have the hard core people that believe they deserve most of the attention. They have the best gear, take on the hardest mobs, and they need to constantly be in the spotlight. Worst part is these people demand that raid encounters be as hard as they can. Hopefully we will keep everything in perspective and raiding will be 25% of the game, along with soloing and 50% of the game will be a mixed bag of solo/group style quests with some x2 epic encounters.

Lionidas

09-05-2007, 04:55 PM

<cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I'm seriously wondering what is stopping anyone from raiding. This is not a casual vs raider or anything of that matter and is not my intent.</blockquote>Some raids out there take a long time if your in an in-experienced group or your doing a raid zone for the first time. First time I ever did labs it took the raid 7hrs to complete it. Now with the raid i'm in it takes only 3hrs and even then 3hrs is alot of time to some people. However the problem is content is being diluted imho and it may reach the point where you have 2 ends instead of 3. You will have the solo activists preaching their crap, banging their books, etc... demanding that more than 50% of the content of the game be soloable. Already in EoF alot of content is soloable including some quests that proclaim themselves to be "Heroic". After that you have the hard core people that believe they deserve most of the attention. They have the best gear, take on the hardest mobs, and they need to constantly be in the spotlight. Worst part is these people demand that raid encounters be as hard as they can. Hopefully we will keep everything in perspective and raiding will be 25% of the game, along with soloing and 50% of the game will be a mixed bag of solo/group style quests with some x2 epic encounters. </blockquote>Your right some raids take much longer than others and the first time through takes longer than it would once you know the zone. But this applies to any zone really. Unrest is a great example. When it first came out it took a long time for groups to navigate through. Now that same group can clear the zone in 1/3 the time. I really think that its more of everyone would like the things they enjoy the most to be looked at and get some attention. For them "wanting encounters to be has hard as they can", I think this might be a little off. There is a difference between hard and challenging. Hardcore raiders want an encounter that makes them think, makes everyone in the raid involved with an important task and that pushes them to the limit. If an encounter is just hard with no purpose behind it or no thought involved, raiders are disappointed. The same would hold true if every quest just required you to kill 10 of this type of mob. They would get pretty dull and I would think that most people would rather have a challenge from time to time.

Daghammerskold

09-05-2007, 05:19 PM

DEMANDS OF RAIDINGI am in a rather casual raiding guild and I think the best analogy is to compare it to a team on an intramural softball league. We all knows that the game is not the most important thing in our lives but we can agree to spend a certain amount of time 2 or 3 nights a week playing. It is not really any more of a commitment than a softball team would ask of you.GEARWe are starting to be successful raiding EoF content and the gear that drops there is certainly better. But during these successful raids, where I often as not top the zone-wide parse, I keep most of my KoS fabled armor in my bags and wear EoF legendary for the +crit. You should have better than Mastercrafted gear for raiding but you can get the gear you need with single-groups.TIME ZONEI work at 8am and I like to get 8 hours of sleep. I can only raid because I found a guild whose schedual fits those constraints. If you need to be asleep by midnight EST and you guild starts raids at 8 PST then it is clearly not the right fit for you. This game is global, you might need to try several guilds or maybe change servers but if you find the right fit it does not feel like raiding is making any heavy demands on your time, no more than a softball team really.

Illmarr

09-05-2007, 05:20 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>No other playstyle brings about so many mixed feelings in EQ2 than raiding.On one hand you have "Raiders" or even "Hardcore Raiders". Depending on who you are the definitions of this type of player can range fromRaiderraid-er-noun<ol><li>A player that partakes in the killing pr attempts of killing epic mobs.</li><li>A player that plays everyday at every hour and is considered an elitist.</li><li>A player that takes pride in his character and plays it to the maximum abilities.</li></ol>Definition 1 is the only one that holds true for all Raiders. The other two could apply to anyone, regardless of playstyle, and depending on who is giving the definition.So what really separates the Raider from the Casual? What is it that makes this playstyle resented more so than any other group? What is the reason that so many are against raiding?</blockquote>Desire and opportunity are what seperates "Raiders" and "Casuals" Those without the desire to raid usually do not hold any hate toward Raiders. Those without opportunity may resent their lack of such, and that could turn to hate against those that do. Someone already made the point about the jerk preception. There are plenty of jerks that don't raid. There are plenty of jerks that do. There are several ginormous jerks that do raid and are very openly antagonistic and harsh to those that do not, making statements such as "The only reason to play is to level to 70 to raid" or "Devs, stop wasting time making new 1-20 content for the new expansion, all us Raiders have been capped and bored for too long, we're all going to quit." It's this very small minority within the Raiding community that creates such hate from the "casual" players.I've been on both sides of the fence. I was my Guild's MT in EQ1 when EQ2 came out. We were doing current raid content when that happened, but EQ2 and WoW took half our force. I no longer have the desire to make the commitment to be in a dedicated raiding guild. There is nothing wrong with the need to make a commitment. As said before, it's no different from commiting to a Park and Rec League or a Bridge Club or the PTA. But I love to hear about server firsts, and when a Guild beats an encounter for it's first time.I can't think of any reason to actually be actively against Raiding. Don't partake in it if it's not your style, but why begrudge people their style. People that do this are no better than the stereotypical "Uber Raider" Pot meet Kettle

Aurumn

09-05-2007, 05:22 PM

<cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aurumn@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I refuse to schedule playtime like it's my job. I pop in when I want to, for as long as I feel like playing, on the days I want to play. Some days I play other games. Sometimes I'd rather spend time with my husband/pets or I have other RL responsibilities to deal with. I've spontaneouly joined up on a few small ventures like helping to camp stuff for HQ's, but nothing high level (see #1... my "main" is level 35).</blockquote>Point 2 is the part that I think confuses me the most. When it comes to a video game, people always toss out the "it is not a job thing", very true.But weekly poker nights, softball games, trips to the gym, television shows (fit more before Tivo and DVR's), etc. all have to be scheduled in most cases. Same for a raid, if you want to raid with 24 other people, a time needs to be set....it has nothing to do with treating it like a job.</blockquote>I perhaps have a unique situation. I work an average of 50 hours/week. My evening hours are pretty random and include weekends, but they're scheduled 2 weeks in advance. The problem is that they are subject to change at any time. Assuming I commit to a 3 hour block of gaming it could only be every other weekend, subject to change with perhaps only a day or two of notice. Aside from that my husband is a student and working so when he has free time I will drop everything to do what he wants to do, schedule or not. Essentially work, family and chores take precedence over anything of a social or recreational nature. This means I have very limited time and I take it as I can. I've tried structured social events and while it's nice to know there's always something to do I found adhering to structured events and the stress of keeping to that schedule in addition to other (IMO) higher priorities to be the exact opposite of relaxing. I like the option to choose between socializing and say taking a nap on the fly without feeling that I'm letting someone down if I choose one or the other. When life calms down more I may choose differently, but for now... my sanity can't take it. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Lasai

09-05-2007, 05:32 PM

In any situation where there are two opposite "poles" there will be extremes to both views, and a wide middle ground.The contempt runs both ways, and so do the comments. Things like "solo activists preaching their crap" just posted by Amana being a perfect example, thanks Amana.Both playstyles are valid. What is not valid is lumping either groups motivations/personas into your own preconceptions. I solo. That does not make me a lazy, whining nub who wants fabled gear on login, or any of the other mischaracterizations. It does not mean I am remotely jealous of any raider. It does not mean I belong to a "sucky noob guild" Not wanting to join raids for content does not make me an antisocial pariah who should be playing single player games either.So do glittering generalizations on who "works" harder, who has entitlement, who is skilled at the game, whose opinions count. Raiding is a choice of playstyle requiring 24 people and commitment to that playstyle. That is why they get the Raid drops, not because they are smarter, better, more skilled, less lazy or any of the common crap spewed about.Soloing is a choice of playstyle also, and while Soloers don't need (and I don't want) Raid level drops to successfully do so, it is nice we have some content available to us. In my opinion, the problem gets worse when the devs attempt to mollify both sides. Trivializing named and enhancing solo drops upsets the group/raid faction. Twinking CAs, AAs and professions to "bring more to a Raid" upsets me when it screws with my game style and removes a solo option. Again, it runs both ways.Both extremes have thier haters. I am comfortable in the middle ground, thankful that we have options in this game to pursue our own playstyle.

Kendricke

09-05-2007, 05:45 PM

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>In any situation where there are two opposite "poles" there will be extremes to both views, and a wide middle ground.The contempt runs both ways, and so do the comments. Things like "solo activists preaching their crap" just posted by Amana being a perfect example, thanks Amana.Both playstyles are valid. What is not valid is lumping either groups motivations into your own preconceptions. I solo. That does not make me a lazy, whining nub who wants fabled gear on login, or any of the other mischaracterizations. It does not mean I am remotely jealous of any raider. It does not mean I belong to a "sucky noob guild" Not wanting to join raids for content does not make me an antisocial pariah who should be playing single player games either.So do glittering generalizations on who "works" harder, who has entitlement, who is skilled at the game, whose opinions count. Raiding is a choice of playstyle requiring 24 people and commitment to that playstyle. That is why they get the Raid drops, not because they are smarter, better, more skilled, less lazy or any of the common crap spewed about.Soloing is a choice of playstyle also, and while Soloers don't need (and I don't want) Raid level drops to successfully do so, it is nice we have some content available to us. In my opinion, the problem gets worse when the devs attempt to mollify both sides. Trivializing named and enhancing solo drops upsets the group/raid faction. Twinking CAs, AAs and professions to "bring more to a Raid" upsets me when it screws with my game style and removes a solo option. Again, it runs both ways.Both extremes have thier haters. I am comfortable in the middle ground, thankful that we have options in this game to pursue our own playstyle.</blockquote>Excellent post.

Decad

09-05-2007, 05:53 PM

Armawk

09-05-2007, 05:58 PM

From my perspective, a lot of people not involved with raiding are uninterested in it because:1: It depends on too many other people turning up, behaving right etc at the same time.2: It sounds kind of repetitive and boring, you tend to hear a lot of raiders talking about doing a raid they did already many times before with the same people just for loot.3: There is, rightly or wrongly, a perception your game will be reduced to taking orders from some arrogant kid with no life and a bad attitude.A lot of people who might like to do raids arent involved because:1: Its hard to get involved if you dont already know people involved, and the community of raiders is too often closed off from the wider game community.2: If they try it they have a bad experience because the way its run by many guilds doesnt always allow for people to dabble their toes in it while still getting enjoyment, and many people will want to do that first to see if they like it.3: As soon as people start discussing DKPs and compulsory attendances the interest fades like a cheap tshirt.4: A hell of a lot of raid guilds insist on voice chat and a large chunk of the game base wont touch that.A lot of people have a bad attitude to raiders because:1: Raiders sometimes have a bad attitude to other players, in a loud and public sense, conveying misplaced elitism (or even sneering superiority)2: Raid guilds advertising for members sometimes convey the sense they are doing you a huge favour if they take you. Many people stop reading there.3: The interguild discussions/arguments you see are often outright assinine.Note: Im not saying these perceptions are correct, in fact I know for a fact they are in many cases not correct at all, but nonetheless this is how the wider game world has come to see raiding, and specifically raid guilds.

Vith

09-05-2007, 06:03 PM

<cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote>You will have the solo activists preaching their crap, banging their books, etc... demanding that more than 50% of the content of the game be soloable. Already in EoF alot of content is soloable including some quests that proclaim themselves to be "Heroic". Hopefully we will keep everything in perspective and raiding will be 25% of the game, along with soloing and 50% of the game will be a mixed bag of solo/group style quests with some x2 epic encounters. </blockquote>The problem arises from a point I made earlier. If soloing is 50% of the game, solo players can basically do 50% of the content. Meanwhile, raiders can do 100%, because they can also solo and field smaller groups easily. Groups can do 75%. I fail to see how that is an even compromise.<div></div><div>Please refrain from insulting folks with different playstyles, it detracts from a decent topic of conversation.</div><div></div><div></div>

Lionidas

09-05-2007, 06:11 PM

<cite>Vith@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote>You will have the solo activists preaching their crap, banging their books, etc... demanding that more than 50% of the content of the game be soloable. Already in EoF alot of content is soloable including some quests that proclaim themselves to be "Heroic". Hopefully we will keep everything in perspective and raiding will be 25% of the game, along with soloing and 50% of the game will be a mixed bag of solo/group style quests with some x2 epic encounters. </blockquote>The problem arises from a point I made earlier. If soloing is 50% of the game, solo players can basically do 50% of the content. Meanwhile, raiders can do 100%, because they can also solo and field smaller groups easily. Groups can do 75%. I fail to see how that is an even compromise.<div></div><div>Please refrain from insulting folks with different playstyles, it detracts from a decent topic of conversation.</div><div></div><div></div></blockquote>I may have misinterpreted what Amana was saying, but I took "the solo activists" as referring to the extremists, such as activists in other forms that would take their point of view to extreme measures and not to soloists on the whole.For your part if you flipped it you could say that a solo player could get a few other solo players and form a group and in turn that group could form a raid and it would still hold true. So in reality it comes down to the person and what they want to do with time.

Decad

09-05-2007, 06:43 PM

<cite>Denaso@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>...My guild is small, only like 25 unique accounts, it's very difficult for us to get everyone online together to go do raids. I left a larger guild that was doing raids for this guild because I really enjoy playing with the people in it. We do raids whenever we can but it's pretty rare for us and when we are able to do them they are mostly tier 3 and 4 raids. It'll be months more before we can even think about seriously doing end game raids...</blockquote>Right there I believe (and perhaps I'm wrong) is where the design strategies by DEVs lead to some of the problems and divisions that end up between both sides.Looking at KoS, you have;<ul><li>the Ascentof the Awakening zones, which are primarily quest zones. I don't remember them dropping much if any loot.</li><li>the Trials of the Leader zone, which is for a quest.</li><li>Temple of Scale which is a contested scalable zone. Sounds sort of good for beginning raiders, except that there isn't much in the way of x2 mobs, and not a lot of loot drops either.</li><li>Labs, which is a x4</li><li>Halls of Seeing which is a x4</li><li>Deathtoll, which is a x4</li><li>Lyceum, which is also a x4 zone.</li></ul>I've always wondered why the raiding zone progressions which give the good fabled gear start with a x4? Why not a x2? Everyone knows there's a progression in difficulty. It's what, Labs -> Lyceum -> perhaps HoS -> then Deathtoll -> then onto the EoF stuff? In my perfect little world, I'd create the progression starting with a x2 raiding zone. Length wise perhaps similiar to a Lyceum or Halls of Seeing (looking at map, never been actually for some reason) sized zone. Give it a beginning raid tier loot table, kind of like what Labs has. And set the difficulty such that most players only need to be in Treasured or Mastercrafted gear with Adept 1 or 3 CA/Spells, with the occasionnal Legendary/Master 1 items/CA/Spells.I believe something like this would help:<ul><li>Foster better understanding of what raiding is for the people in smaller guilds, by people who have trouble getting in on raids, and by people who feel raiding is outta their league.</li><li>Give people who don't feel that they can get in on raiding a better chance to actually do so.</li><li>Give the same above people raiding experience.</li><li>Give the same above people some better equipment.</li><li>More opportunites for pickup raids, especially early on as only 12 people are needed, not 24.</li><li>Give casual guilds such as the one I'm in, more opportunities to raid (and train people on raiding) on days when log-ins are light. Plain and simply, provide a back-up for all guilds on nights when numbers are down. </li></ul>As far as I can see, the only downfall to this is that at the start of each new tier, larger raiding guilds will have to run duel x2 raiding parties co-currently if they want to/need to start with this zone. Once they "graduate", it's back onto the x4 zones.And the said part is, the RoK FAQ I'm almost certain is already stating that there are no x2 zones. So, all smaller guilds or guilds having attendance issues right now are going to need to form alliances or get pick-ups.Again, right there is where I believe some of the animosity comes from, which is in my opinion poor design decisions (Sry Devs of many games) which unfortunately ends up flaming the battles between casual players who feel left out -versus- raiding players who can get in on the content. But then again for all I know, the fight may progress to casual x2 raiders -versus- raiding x4 players.

Eviljoe2

09-05-2007, 06:50 PM

This thread is truely amusing for me. I had never known there was an argument or any malice between these two groups before reading this.Given that, I must wonder why?? To me it is like arguing over what is better....bagels or donuts.I play a lot, and do some pick up groups, but do not feel confident enough in my abilities to do many raids. I have joined the occasional pick up raid, and my guild is too small to raid currently. So, I usually group, or duo with a guildie and do quests here and there. Given that, I have always envied, but NEVER resented raiders. I figure I will be one someday too...You see, I feel we all have the same chances to meet people in game, join guilds and join raids....I suppose if I wanted to raid bad enough, I would get really good at playing my toon and quit my guild and join with a raiding guild, or spend time REALLY watching for pick up raids....some of us have less time due to RL...in that case, those people derive their rewards in the REAL LIFE and should not expect equally fullfilling items for less play time. Odd, this thread and argument..../boggle

interstellarmatter

09-05-2007, 07:00 PM

<cite>Eviljoe2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>This thread is truely amusing for me. Odd, this thread and argument..../boggle</blockquote>This is nothing. For a while, this type of thread was popping up everyday. It's been quite since about the time EoF came out. Now that RoK is about the be released, expect many of these to pop up again.The forum operates on a regular cycle.Next month, you'll see the threads complaing about the price of the expansion start popping up.

Gnevil

09-05-2007, 07:22 PM

<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eviljoe2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>This thread is truely amusing for me. Odd, this thread and argument..../boggle</blockquote>This is nothing. For a while, this type of thread was popping up everyday. It's been quite since about the time EoF came out. Now that RoK is about the be released, expect many of these to pop up again.The forum operates on a regular cycle.Next month, you'll see the threads complaing about the price of the expansion start popping up.</blockquote>And Stella hits it right on the head!!!!!!!As to the ops question.. it really comes down to the small percentage of uber (greatness defined by their limited minds =P) raiders who have to strut like peacocks in the level chats and demean any lesser player around them. They yell the loudest, insult the most and are the most visible by design. Every time some player asks a question in the level chats, usually genuinely looking for help. There is always that one uber player (not always a raider grant you but 80% of the time it is) who has to say go look it up noob, [Removed for Content] don't you know what the internet is for? Or why do you need two healers for HoF or Den hell I solo that 4 times a week for loot.... This IMO in a nutshell is what draws out threads like this, players are currently bored anxiously awaiting the new expansion and thus this kind of stuff pops up on the boards. The other big problem is the quest lines that require a raid force to finish, yes for the big lines there are many rewards that an average player can achieve but they never get the satisfaction of doing the end. I have always wondered why epic level quests shouldn't be given inside of epic level zones and completed in epic level zones, which would pretty much aim it directly at the raiding community. For those that are obsessed with doing every single quest in the game you simply have to wait until you out level the content to get and finish that quest. But Sony doesn't do this good or bad there are many opinions out there on this subject. For the vast majority of the content in game currently if you know your class you can compete just fine in EOF Class Legendary gear.. and quest rewards, some of the treasured EOF gear is actually better then alot of the KOS raid gear.. go figure..

tass

09-05-2007, 07:34 PM

bah, neither is right or wrong. When they made the game they should of decided, do we want a raiding type of game or a solo type of game, It actually started as a raiding type of game cause u needed alot of people to take on crap. Then they tried to make it into both. The result is this thread. Don't care how many people you have or what machines you can simultaneously make content both solo based and raid based at the same times. Which is whats happening with the new expansion. Some quick content 1-20 (about a couple of hours) and then a bunch of stuff meant for end game.

rivj0r

09-05-2007, 08:29 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>See that is the kind of honest answer I was looking for. I've been thinking a lot lately about why some people always try and make it a "Casual vs. Raider" argument when really there is no separation between the two in this current day. Raid zones are instanced just like the group zones, meaning there is no call at 3am to kill a mob. It does not take 100+ players to do a zone in EQ2, in fact some zones take just over a full group. So for the players that do group instances, why not try a raid zone?</blockquote>I would love to get the full fabled set of gears and the look that comes with it. I think it stinks that this stuff is only available to raiding players. My not raiding isn't a personal choice, its a time zone limitation. I'm in New Zealand and I'm on Everfrost server. The server population at the end of my day is pretty low.I miss the start of US time zone raids due to work, and the asian ones tend to start a little late. What fabled gear I have comes from my time with Arirang. To raid I used to get up at midnight, get it done and get some sleep in before work. I'm pretty sure that qualifies as 'hardcore gaming'.Before anyone suggests moving to Najena, which has a fair chunk of people from my timezone, feel free to offer to pay for it. Moving my guild will cost something in the realm of $1000 USD. Not really something I'm willing or able to pay for.

Eviljoe2

09-05-2007, 08:41 PM

I (like most of us) started my toon and guild in a timezone that matches my playtime.If there is some reason you began in a different timezone, such as that server provided something YOUR timezone did not...then the issue to address with SOE is to make timezone servers more similar....but making raid gear available to someone who does not raid, simply because his timezone does not match up is like giving a man your car to keep just because he needs a ride across town...it would be better to simply offer him a ride.

NiteWolfe

09-05-2007, 08:54 PM

<cite>rivj0r wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>See that is the kind of honest answer I was looking for. I've been thinking a lot lately about why some people always try and make it a "Casual vs. Raider" argument when really there is no separation between the two in this current day. Raid zones are instanced just like the group zones, meaning there is no call at 3am to kill a mob. It does not take 100+ players to do a zone in EQ2, in fact some zones take just over a full group. So for the players that do group instances, why not try a raid zone?</blockquote>I would love to get the full fabled set of gears and the look that comes with it. I think it stinks that this stuff is only available to raiding players. My not raiding isn't a personal choice, its a time zone limitation. I'm in New Zealand and I'm on Everfrost server. The server population at the end of my day is pretty low.I miss the start of US time zone raids due to work, and the asian ones tend to start a little late. What fabled gear I have comes from my time with Arirang. To raid I used to get up at midnight, get it done and get some sleep in before work. I'm pretty sure that qualifies as 'hardcore gaming'.Before anyone suggests moving to Najena, which has a fair chunk of people from my timezone, feel free to offer to pay for it. Moving my guild will cost something in the realm of $1000 USD. Not really something I'm willing or able to pay for.</blockquote> Well since you DONT raid there is no need foryou to get the gear the legendary set will do you just as well for group content. I never understood just why none raiders think they NEED raid gear.

FireDragon

09-05-2007, 09:02 PM

I have had mixed experiences with raiders.I wont touch on the fire and fury fiasco that happened to the old FV server. I'll mention it though, and if you were involved you'll know of the community reaction and the flame wars that were attached to that. that was my first experience of raiders, it left me with a less than stellar opinion.I think my favorite post on the raid vs casual came from someone i met in WoW. His argument was something like:Without death meaning much, there is no relevence to the risk vs reward argument. If you are max level experience dept does not exist. All it costs is money, and money is easy enough to get in those quantities. (and with no spirit shard runs / corpse runs, wheres the risk?)So we establish risk vs reward is fluff. You have a chance to die when solo or in a group, you have a chance to die in a raid. Neither death has any lasting effect on you. Eventually raid guilds trivialise a zone, the only real big risk comes from their first experiences in a raiding zone, once they have their clockwork going there, there is arguably little risk to the older raid zones, especially when they start 'gearing up'. Even if they ie: money is all it costs. Groups and solo also have a chance to die, probably the same chance or more: but the reward is not there to the same extent. However that solo / group put in just as much time: sometimes more, for less reward.Why the hate though? Well, it comes down to the raiders you have had expeience with. I know some folk who raid who are great, however I also know many raiders who are elitist jerks. I used to really hate 'raiders' but these days I have a neutral opinion on them, i like some and odnt like others: i.e they're just people i meet and the opinions go from there.Unfortunately, I have a friend who is in a raid guild on WoW. I rarely even see him anymore: it requires compulsory sign ups to something like 2 raids a week etc. I think it also requires x hours / day. I just dont understand that.Anyway, i'm sure someone will go cut this post apart soon enough. If I am wrong on anything, feel free to correct it. I havent raided much, havnt got to the level caps in this game in all my time here, just in general info I have picked up in my experiences.

Giral

09-05-2007, 09:14 PM

the solo players that hate's raider's = a very small Minorty of the solo player basethe group player that hate's solo players and raider's= a very small minority of the player base the raid ONLY player that Hate's Solo and Group players = a very small minority out of the above three in each catagory you will get some that are very Vocal about there HATE "LOOK AT me im foaming at the mouth as i type out my searing words of disdain for your "BLEPITY BLEEP" playstyle.the Few Loudmouths from eitherside of the fence solo/group/raid make up 1 % of 1% of the player base : ) unfortunatly the most vocal 1% i think we can all agree tho that every body Hates a Gnome tho /wink

TaleraRis

09-05-2007, 09:23 PM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem is, raiding tends to define the end game, such that all other end game activities (ie, everything you do after you've hit the level cap) are balanced against raiding in terms of loot quality and rewards. The assumption is that raiding carries the greatest risk, and thus must provide the best rewards, while other forms of gameplay are inferior and thus cannot provide any sort of real reward that infringes upon the quality of raid-level gear.Raiding as a whole has come to dominate PvE games - it's not limited to EQ2 by any means - and thus we see a severe lack of creativity in end-game activities. The progression of virtually all PvE games is from solo early to grouping in the mid levels to raiding at the end. Rarely do these games offer any other sorts of playstyles, nor do they offer rewards or meaningful advancement options for those who attempt to pursue alternate playstyles. There are so many possibilities for types of gameplay in MMOs that it seems such a waste of potential to see developers churn out EQ clones one after another. </blockquote>Succinctly put. I think many who are non-raiding if we speak up against raiding taking over the end game content to the extreme that it does are labeled anti-raid and that's just not true. My personal wishes are for the different play styles to be treated as equal, neither inferior or superior to the other, and an end game option available to all. There is currently a ceiling (as I've said in other threads) where this play style's "end game" stops because it requires segueing into another play style's end game and thus up into raiding as the end-all, be-all. I also have a problem when some raiders want zones like Nizara, group zones designed to challenge them when they're not raiding. They only require challenge outside the normal progression because they experience these zones in gear that trivializes it. But many can't be content that they trivialize it and want their own quality of group progression as well as raid progression. It comes out looking incredibly greedy. As for raiding in general, it's just not my cup of tea. I'm an EQ Live veteran. I had to raid to progress there, especially during PoP, and while sometimes it was fun and rewarding, sometimes it was dreadfully dull and irritating, too. Questing is a main focus of my game and besides the initial kill to finish the quest, I have no reason to keep going back and killing a mob. I'm not interested in loot insofar as I'm able to continue in the play style I choose. I find soloing more challenging and so despite the fact I have plenty of time to raid, it just holds no interest for me.

Daine

09-05-2007, 09:47 PM

I'm not an 'uber raider' or anything, but my guild does optional KoS raids on weekends, occasionally taking a stab at the EoF stuff. My old guild did not organize raids at all, partly because of character levels and activity overall, so many people who hit 70 left to go raid. People followed them out in what was known as the 'exodus,' good people leaving a good guild because they were sick of the same level 70 group zones over and over again. Our guild had funny engaging people, and they all left to raid. I was bitter about this for a while, and then I started grouping with the same people again. Eventually my fiance and I also moved to the same (more raid oriented) guild as the others, and I realized it's not so bad. The new guild has awesome people in it as well, and I still keep in touch with the old one by keeping all 6 of my alts in there and chatting with the leader from time to time. When people are serious enough to raid they tend to be more active and driven characters. This means that while you may spend hours at a time (optional raids in some guilds, required in others) slogging through the same old raid zones, you get to try new zones and find new items for your character. It's fun though...you get to learn about the lore behind a lot of the game, talk to your friends on Ventrilo or Teamspeak, and have fun with the ever-kookier ways the devs made bosses interesting, from bosses you have to sacrifice people to to ones that one-shot your tank if you hit their adds.That being said, people don't like raid guilds b/c of the exact same reason. They think 'my connection stinks, I don't have enough time, I don't play well enough, I don't have the right equipment, and all of them seem to want to show off their stuff.' Why do THEY get to have fun while I'm grouping for my hat quest? Can I be that motivated over a game? It's not for everyone and that's the scary part. I didn't want to raid b/c I saw the "RAID GUILDS" prominently displayed and they looked like people that were idiots with no life. My connection sucked and I lagged out the wazoo. But now? I play on my fiance's connection, talk to my online friends in real life, learn the history of the world, see some killer boss tactics, work together on taking those bosses down, and get my character some really nice equipment while I'm at it. True, I spend several hours a weekend at a computer, facing death and repair bills, frustration and boredom, but it's actually the nicest time I've had playing this game <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Guy De Alsace

09-05-2007, 11:08 PM

Only problem I have with off-duty raiders is they treat everything like a raid. Pull everything in a room because they can (i go to 3 fps for the entire battle) and wipe/rez/wipe just like being in a raid. There's always some joker who asks for a parse in a group as well. It really irritates me that they cant turn off from thinking all mobs are raid mobs!I solo, group and pickup-raid in, say, proportions of 45%/45%/5%. The raids I do usually take a long time to organise because they are invariably a pickup. I give great kudos to whoever volunteers for the thankless task of getting a pickup raid together and, with endless patience, has to go through the same rigmarole of what the etiquette and protocols are on raids. I'm equally irritated at the people who dont raid and thought they would give it a try then either dont listen to the raid leader or just dont learn anything about what the do's and donts are.Groupers treat raids like big groups and raiders treat groups like raids. Its really aggravating!

Aneova

09-05-2007, 11:26 PM

I'm a casual player... or I am now as now I live on my own and have to worry about Mr Taxman and the Bill collectors ... 75% of my time is working, 10% is sleep 10% to other and my only shot at relaxing is on the evenings when I can sit around and play. I have tried my best to join a raid or two as I like having that big of bragging rights to the few in my guild who have not raided a certain zone and show off some new piece of fat lewt. So in the end... I suppose I'm a casual raider... getting to raid maybe if I'm lucky once or twice a month. Am I jealous of the other fury's who are all mastered out and have a full set of EoF fabled leather armor... [I cannot control my vocabulary] skippy... but I'll live.. and maybe just maybe I might get my shot to go and get that same set of armor... I just have to be patient and work hard to try and do so... in the end... IT'S A GAME FOLKS!! don't take it to seriously.

wepps

09-06-2007, 01:51 AM

People have funny ideas of what's going on. They get it in their heads one way and refuse to see it another.Often they visit games in beta and offer up anti-raiding-elite discussions, and for a game in beta that's fine. But this is an established game. It's not like overnight all the solo play will disappear and the players suddenly don't want to pay to hang out waiting for groups all night (ala SWG)Raiding is a traditional aspect of Everquest that should have been maintained and if more raiding is to be applied to EQII, so be it. I'm not against that. What people will be upset about is taking tons of development time and resources to develop raiding game play....exclusively.They don't want to be ignored in their preferred playstyle is all, for the sake of others' playstyles. They don't want to be forced to pay to hang out and wait for groups for hours and days just on the off chance they might get a drop that is now needed to compete. This is one of the things about WoW that I always hated, but I mean I never took part in that aspect of it so I don't really care all that much.EQII has SO MUCH CONTENT, that I can't argue it if they decide to concentrate on bringing back the old Planes Raids. In my opinion, go for it. Hope it works out. If I have time I WILL take part, they were hella fun lol. Even in those days though I NEVER got the drop I wanted on those raids, and rarely got any drop at all. Inevitably I went on them just for the fun and the challenge of it. I'll tell you what the main problem is with perception of Raiding Hate:1 - You are provided a game where equipment is everything.2 - You are then denied access to the best equipment unless you have the time to pursue it in a raid.That's bad design. It touches only one small aspect of gaming and that's why it's bad design. This is a virtual world, and in these all play styles need to be addressed. If you don't, you don't get the subscriptions. If a piece of equipment becomes so powerful in nature that it's a must have or you can't compete, then it's a failure on the part of the designers.There must be others ways to compensate the hardcore players.But here we don't really have that problem, so I don't perceive the problem except in the minds of those that simply hate hardcore raiders for the sake of hate.

retro_guy

09-06-2007, 02:06 AM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I'm seriously wondering what is stopping anyone from raiding. This is not a casual vs raider or anything of that matter and is not my intent.</blockquote>Some don't like raiding because they find it boring and tedious. They play the game to relax and raiding is far from relaxing.

Rumbler

09-06-2007, 04:18 AM

Here is my very black and white view. Raiding is a team sport and the rest of EQ2 is a game.If you treat raiding like a game it will be a painful time consuming experience. If you treat it like a sport where you build a team of your best players, have good leadership, roles, time commitment and everyone does their part as practiced and strategised then you can get allot more out of raiding in less time that playing it as a game. It can still be a painful time consuming experience but much less and sometimes it is even rewarding.Why the hate?Raiders feel non raiders are letting the team down due to lack of knowledge, commitment or inability to follow instructions and pay attention. Non raiders don't understand they aren't playing a game anymore and a higher level of commitment is expected of them. Non raider: Why you on my case man? Its just a game - hold a sec I got to go have a smoke.Alot of people that play EQ2 as a game have more time to spare than raiders. Most of my guild have limited time available due to family or work which is why they raid and do it in an efficient way because they don't have the time to play any other way.There are lots of shades of commitment to raiding and playing and finding or building a guild with the right level to suit you is not easy. My guild has become harder core over time than originally intended by necessity but we are still not putting in anywhere near what some other guilds do time wise - especially those camping the contested 24/7. Contested are where it moves from sport to being your job and earning a living is just a hobby. We don't raid more than 3 hours every other night. We cleared both FTH and Mistmore in 2.5 hours for our last raid including time to let someone else in for the quest update on Mistmore. We worked hard as a team to get to that level of efficiency and even that time includes a couple stuff ups (bloody chaperons).

bks6721

09-06-2007, 05:14 AM

I see things happen that more often than not are directly related to a "raider"I don't like hearing how the solo, heroic content is too easy "ie.. carebear" when its coming from someonein fabled gear with 5k+ resists on everything. Try it in my treasured and see how easy it is.I don't like being in a mid level group in some obscure zone and having that one guy that insists on parsingeverything. Just last week I had a tank that was parsing and he commented that perhaps I, as a Templar oughtto be doing more damage. Result, his next pull thats all I concentrated on. Oops, no heals for him.I don't like the feeling that I get from "some" raiders that my character is inferior to their uberness. I resent being told I need to get better gear. I'm aware of that perfectly well, thanks.and just to fit the perfect "whiner" profile I'd like to add that it sucks to have one toon at 70 that can't get into a raid at all, even when I was in a raiding guild.

Hamervelder

09-06-2007, 05:40 AM

I think one reason for the animosity is immature players with big mouths. We've all seen them. Raiders who act like they are somehow better people IRL than non-raiders. You know the type. They know everything about every class, they talk about raid, raid, raid constantly, and belittle people who don't raid. Unfortunately, these clowns are the vocal minority among raiders. I think it has less to do with gear envy, than it does with the way some of these clowns act and relate to other players. It's somewhat sad really, when you engage the sort of player about whom I am writing, in conversation. "What do you do for a living?" ... "Nothing."... "You don't have a job?" .... "Dude, raiding IS my job."... "What does your wife think about that?" .... "Dude, she left." ... "Why?" .... "Because I play EQ2 20 hours a day dude. But omg! Look at this lewtz! Crap I gotta go, constested is up!"

Catseyes

09-06-2007, 06:12 AM

I have been hardcore gamer, no social life (working still so not a true no life) , spending 6H+ per day to raid everyday . Looking closely the dkp to decide what uber loot i will claim or not and such. That was during eq1 and from kunark to OoW. I had a blast, i had some extreme emotions during some raids, and it was big fun with the 40 to 80+ players in the raid. Jokes , fun , challenge, all this is missing a lot ,even if i dont want to fall again in that.Now i m casual player/ raider . I like to take my time to play, to not have to run to home to attend at time a raid , or to have to decide between a party outside and a raid . Why i like to raid still ? because for me it's the only time when you can truely interact with all your guild. You re forming a super-group, of 24 players, sometimes with guests who'll become new friends , you all have the same goal , playing in the same area . Yes you can talk with them on TS or /gu, but it's not same. After that there is the challenge. The thrill and emotions given by the raid. Pushing the game further than playing good in group, having to make strats for boss, having to play at max efficiency your toon, to gear him to best for the raid. IT's another spirit. Tho, i never understood the fight between non-raiders and raiders. It's each side of the same game. Each bring something to other. Even playtime can be enough for casual raiding. That just involve to be on the right server with the right guild. (And now,with the persistent instances that wont be a problem anymore). A raider can stop and go casual , or grouper, and a soloer/grouper can decide to continue into raid progression.

SugarGirl

09-06-2007, 06:25 AM

I think the term Hate is probably the wrong term to use to describe the relationship between raiders and the rest of the playerbase. I don't 'hate' any raiders. In fact, I've had the pleasure of being in two very fine raiding guilds on Befallen and especially enjoyed the people I met with in these guilds. I think moreso than people 'hating' raidERS... they are frustrated with raidING.For a guy that has a good spot in a raiding guild, it's difficult to see the troubles of those outside of it. In my case, I'm frustrated because my schedule doesn't allow me to be a part of the TEAM and my class isn't all that desirable for raiding... so I am incredibly frustrated with the raiding part of the game... I mean EXTREMELY frutrated. This doesn't mean that I hate the people that do get to raid. I think raiding is fantastic... I just wish there was more opportunity for others to enjoy this part of the game as well.That's where the fight begins, usually. Someone, such as myself, posts that they wish that raiding was more accessible, and the people that are already raiding feel like that person is calling for some sort of a nerf or berating the folks that are able to raid. This tends to result in posts from the raiding community stating that "raiding is easy" or that if so and so wasn't so much of a such and such then they could raid too. Attitudes flare up and personal comments ensue dividing the camps into fueding factions.In the middle of all this are griefers that wind up ruining it for their respective camps. On the raiding side are the folks that get raid geared to the point where they can solo any named in the game begin running through heroic dungeons stealing named quest mobs right out from under a full group that has been killing placeholders for four hours and then begins to spam insults at the 'gimpy newbs'On the non raidign side there's the folks that start dragging in adds while a raid is trying to take down a contested mob.. or those that post flagrant flames against a generic "raiding community" about what rude, underdeveloped pricks they all are. In the end, nobody is really right or wrong. It's just the ongoing battle between the haves and the have nots. It's the omnipresent philosophy that you should be more like me or that I should be more like you; when in fact it is just a game that, in many ways, reflects RL. It's the same reason that the rich 'hate' the poor, the poor 'hate' the rich, balcks 'hate' whites, christians 'hate' muslims, republicans 'hate' democrats, men 'hate' women, old people 'hate' young punks' and young punks hate old people.. etc etc etc. I don't think any of us really HATE each other. We all just have differences in our perceptions of the way things 'should' be based on our own personal observations.Why can't we all just... you know... get along?

Lodrelhai

09-06-2007, 06:51 AM

I don't hate raiding, but I do dislike some things that I've seen come from it. I also like some things I've seen come from it. There is one aspect of raiding which I absolutely loathe, but that's a game mechanic and not the fault of raiders themselves.What I dislike about raiding? Personal experiences with people who raid. In EQ1 one of my RL best friends got involved with a raiding guild (our guild was then, and is now, too small to front a decent raid). Said friend mentioned getting some of us who were of level spots in some of their raids. Said raiding guild did anything and everything in their power to isolate friend from us in-game. Friend and I had an RP storyline for our characters we'd been developing for months - they asked to join the RP as IC friends of my friend's character, then tried to shut my character out of any story events. They invited our guild's highest-lvl druid to join them once. Druid was delighted to. Druid naturally ported everyone to the druid ring that was much closer to the raid than the PoK book. Soon as the port was done, druid was kicked from group, another player waiting by the ring was invited in, raid told him thanks for the ride and they left.This was my first experience with raiders. And I admit, freely, that it's only been recently I've been able to look at any raiders without tarring them with the same brush. It wasn't helped that my few run-ins with them on these boards were usually being told that some very difficult content I thought was out of line with the character level it was aimed at was stupidly easy and I should be soloing it no problem.What I like about raiding? Again, personal experience. My guild recently formed an alliance with another smallish guild with some high-end people in the hopes of being able to do some raids and experience some storylines/content we can't by ourselves. We've done a couple things, and it's been fun. Through one of their members I've learned about some casual raids, and had fun with those too. They're interesting, and sometimes they get silly, and sometimes horribly frustrating. But they don't mind that I'm mostly in Treasured gear with a couple Legendary pieces, and they happily let anyone who's interested try out a go, and Courts has been an absolute blast with them. The whole sceduling/obligatory raids thing is not my cup of tea, but I've found the occational casual raid can actually be fun.What I absolutely loathe about raiding? Lore content that is dependent on it. I'm a casual gamer, but an avid lorehound. To me, the story is everything - my character's personal story, the stories of the people she knows, the stories of the world she lives in. EQ2 has some absolutely amazing storylines going in it, and far too many of them I will probably never be able to finish because I don't raid. Now before anyone says I want the quest/quest line reward without the work, I don't. I could care less about the loot, the drops, the ultrauber items you get at each stage of the quest. I just want to experience the story! Let me do the Claymore line solo/group, and instead of the awesome weapon, give me a nifty little no-status-reduction house-placeable certificate of thanks signed by Antonia Bayle/Lucan D'Lere. I didn't even touch the Peacock Club line until I could do most of it solo, because I don't care about cool gear drops or getting Achievement xp for it - I just want to experience the story. For me, it is such a horrible waste that there's these fantastic stories all over the place, and the best I'll ever get of them are the bits and pieces I can solo or get a group for and the cliff-notes versions I can find on the lore boards. It's like giving me a library of novels by Pratchet, Tolkien, Asimov, Anthony, Zelanzney, and a dozen of others, but tearing out the last 5 chapters in every book. It's just wrong.

Sorena

09-06-2007, 06:56 AM

Rumbler

09-06-2007, 07:39 AM

I think it is just as someone above said. In real life people meet a black person they don't like or that slights them decide they hate all black people or visa versa. There are raiders that are good people and others that aren't. There are also plenty of unresonable non raiders that cause raiders to label them. They are relatively easy groups to identify so it's easy to label and hate them. It is racism sexism - probably needs a new word to be invited but is the same basic thing - gross genralisation.Players don't realise what they are doing and most probably wouldn't make the same mistake in real life. Another thing I see in the games is people being called [Removed for Content] and worse. Most people would have enough morals to know better in real life but it seems anything goes online including picking on less fortunate people.

SugarGirl

09-06-2007, 07:58 AM

<cite>Rumbler wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it is just as someone above said. In real life people meet a black person they don't like or that slights them decide they hate all black people or visa versa. There are raiders that are good people and others that aren't. There are also plenty of unresonable non raiders that cause raiders to label them. They are relatively easy groups to identify so it's easy to label and hate them. It is racism sexism - probably needs a new word to be invited but is the same basic thing - gross genralisation.Players don't realise what they are doing and most probably wouldn't make the same mistake in real life. Another thing I see in the games is people being called [Removed for Content] and worse. Most people would have enough morals to know better in real life but it seems anything goes online including picking on less fortunate people. </blockquote>It should also be acknowledged too that any -ism is a two way street. Not only are some people generalizing raiders... there are plenty of raiders that generalize non-raiding players as [Removed for Content] whiners and lazy [Removed for Content].

steelbadger

09-06-2007, 08:10 AM

I content myself by looking at raiders vs casuals in a different light. I look at it as "Short-sighted, narrow-minded, selfish raiders vs casuals" and "Short-sighted, narrow-minded, selfish casuals vs raiders" The problem is not casuals, or raiders. But people who act out of a kind of low grade gnawing malignity. People who consider themselves to be more important that others. People who would perpetuate the stupidity already begun by believing the stereotypes simply because it suits their world view. I have met my fair share of stupid and obtuse raiders, but likewise I have met a fair few idiotic soloers. The bad guys are not soloers or raiders, but the stupid, selfish people who perpetuate this pointless argument. Don't rise to them, don't pay attention to them, ignore them and have fun playing the way you enjoy, who cares how other people want to play?

cyclonus11

09-06-2007, 12:18 PM

What about casual raiders? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />They do exist, fwiw...

mellowknees72

09-06-2007, 12:48 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I'm seriously wondering what is stopping anyone from raiding. This is not a casual vs raider or anything of that matter and is not my intent.</blockquote>Here's what stops me:1) I spent 5 years playing EQ1...and a lot my playtime the last couple of years was spent raiding. I never, ever, ever want to do it again.2) I got burned in EQ1 by other players...people I had trusted and invited into my guild who then caused drama between the guild I led and one of our allied guilds, with whom we raided a lot. It was the "last straw" for me when it came to trying to manage other people's nasty behavior. After that, I slowed way down on pick-up groups and I stopped recruiting people to my guild. It was easier, more fun, and less stress to play either solo or with people I already knew well. I don't care to repeat that whole scenario again.3) I spend all day at work, being told what to do by my boss. I have no desire to spend my evenings when I want to have fun either a) being told what to do by a raid leader, or b) waiting for people who won't follow instructions as they fart around when we're supposed to be killing stuff or they pull a LeRoy Jenkins and get us all killed because they're antsy.And in my personal opinion, the main reasons that raiders get a lot of resentment on these boards and in game are:1) Raiders often call for content changes that make the game much more challenging for them, and that make higher end content absolutely unreachable for casual players.2) Raiders also often treat casual players like we don't matter, or we're stupid for not wanting to raid, or we're not worth your time because we don't have 97,000 master spells and uberarmor and the Mighty Mace of I Killed 7,000 Mobs and so on and so forth. It's like a high school rich kids vs. poor kids sort of thing.3) Casual players want to protect their own interests just as raiders want to protect theirs. Casuals don't want to see EQ2 turn into EQ1 when it comes to end-game content. Casuals don't want to feel like they HAVE to raid...and raiders don't understand why they wouldn't want to raid.The wonderful thing is that it seems to me (and I know people will disagree with this, and whatever, I don't care) that the developers actually *do* listen to both the casual players AND the raiders in EQ2 and they try to balance content to please everyone. It doesn't always happen, but I think that the sheer number of solo quests, group quests, and epic quests speak volumes about the fact that this is a game that tries to cater to a lot of different playstyles.

09-06-2007, 01:02 PM

<cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aurumn@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here are the main things that I feel currently block me from raiding:<ol><li>I have ZERO interest in racing to 70. I've never played ANY games this way. I love to explore, quest and learn my class. Crafting to tweak my gear and earn coin is another hobby of mine.</li><li>I refuse to schedule playtime like it's my job. I pop in when I want to, for as long as I feel like playing, on the days I want to play. Some days I play other games. Sometimes I'd rather spend time with my husband/pets or I have other RL responsibilities to deal with. I've spontaneouly joined up on a few small ventures like helping to camp stuff for HQ's, but nothing high level (see #1... my "main" is level 35).</li><li>I am not driven to get the endgame loot or top the leaderboards. I play for my own enjoyment and stress relief. I have no interest in outparsing anyone or seeing how I stack up to other toons/players. I may get to a point where I feel like jumping into the fray, but right now... not so much.</li></ol></blockquote>I can see your point with 1 and 3. You do have to be max level with maxed AA's to really be a successful raid member. You also need to be driven to see the endgame and equip your character with the best loots, not strictly wanting to see your name on the leaderboards.Point 2 is the part that I think confuses me the most. When it comes to a video game, people always toss out the "it is not a job thing", very true.But weekly poker nights, softball games, trips to the gym, television shows (fit more before Tivo and DVR's), etc. all have to be scheduled in most cases. Same for a raid, if you want to raid with 24 other people, a time needs to be set....it has nothing to do with treating it like a job.</blockquote>Unfortunately, some of us have other halves who don't see gaming as a valid form of entertainment, and expect you to be able to go afk or log out at the drop of a hat if they decide that you ought to be doing something more interesting (to them) or productive. For this reason, I am only able to play during weekday daytimes when he is at work, and for a couple of hours first thing in the morning on days when he is working at home/on holiday and at weekends. I never play evenings or weekend afternoons.Due to these time constraints, raiding is a non-starter, so it's perhaps just as well that I have no raiding ambition anyway <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

BungFoo

09-06-2007, 01:06 PM

Hey this is by far the best behaved thread on this topic I've ever read. Kudos to the OP for being involved and directing the thread and toi everyone who has posted so far.I've already contributed my comments but I've read the entire thread and enjoyed it.

Allurana

09-06-2007, 01:11 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I'm seriously wondering what is stopping anyone from raiding. This is not a casual vs raider or anything of that matter and is not my intent.</blockquote>From my perspective it is a matter of time.I am firmly in the Casual category because a lot of the raids in this game take too much time and require too many people to complete them.I have excellent organizational skills and our guild has no shortage of leadership endowed people. However we have a really hard time getting together 24 individuals for 4 to 6 hours of continous uninterrupt game time.We are hopeful and very much looking forward to the new persistent instance feature being expanded down into the "lesser" raid zones since it means we will finally be able to pick away at them an hour at a time. but unfortunately that does not address the act of god needed to collect 24 people we know and trust to come online at the exact same time.We work, we have families, we have lives. We work to play the game and have fun. We don't consider playing the game work and an obligation to be "the best" or to be the "server first" for any one item, kill, or raid.I would love to see SOE actually make the raid instance scale to the size of the raid force entering the zone. It is not unheard of (i.e. city guild writ raids). If a x2 raid enters the zone the zone scales to a x2 raid difficulty and adjusts the loot table accordingly - maybe the legendary set pieces drop instead of the uber Fabled loot.Just like in EQ1 which I played from April 1999 until this games first day live, there is a LOT of content I will never be able to personally see or experience myself because I will NEVER have a real life situation which will allow me to "sell my soul" to the game to be able to play at a level with the time committment needed to see it.SOE, you all made a great game with lots of depth and lore and beautiful zones and creative encounters. How about thinking towards the future and being open minded and creative so that people from all walks of life can get the opportunity to experience it.Thanks,Allurana

Leatherneck

09-06-2007, 01:15 PM

There are, unfortunately, tons of problems with raiding.I've been on both sides of the fence on this one, so I have persepective.I started EQ1 as a casual player. I had no problem goofing off doing "unproductive", but for me - fun, stuff. My Iksar monk had explored much of Velious by level 28. I'd worked on faction enough to be allowed in North Freeport and a few other places.I decided I wanted "more" from my game (whatever that was) and went to Legends when it opened. I co-founded an awesome raid guild which would prove to be second best on the server and invited by SOE to beta test raid encounters for expansions and the like. We played smarter, not harder. Everything was about efficiency and teamwork. We consistently were engaging the trash mobs and such within 5 or so minutes of the posted raid time. I personally led many of those raids.It was a great and fun time in my life. It was exciting to grow this guild. When we started, a guild meeting meant 6 of us. By sticking to rigid standards by which we judged a player, not the character, within 8 months we were a force. That guild is still going today, over 5 years now.I got out of the raiding scene. It just wasn't for me anymore. I started playing EQ2 and have been a casual player since.Now, my "qualifications" out of the way...At ALL times I played for fun and usually found it. I hate it when one side (usually the casuals) say "Well, I play to have fun". Well yeah...so do raiders.On the other hand, I have been first-hand witness to elitism from even some of the most humble raiders. It's not overt, and in many cases I doubt the person was even aware of it. For example: I was with 3 guildmates (a druid, an enchanter and a wizard, myself playing a beastlord) getting ready to do a instanced dungeon (Everfrost LDoN for those who want to know). A warrior and a cleric wanted to join, so we said "sure". We took a hard difficulty instance and headed out.Now contrary to popular opinion, Stormhammer wasn't populated by only raider characters with uber gear. In fact, especially toward the beginning, there was quite a bit of roleplaying and GM events and very non-raiding activities and plenty of non-raiders were all over the place. The warrior and the cleric were in that category.The first pull didn't go very well. We got adds, our enchanter locked them down all well and good. However, the warrior was having a tough time keeping aggro. Also he was taking damage at an alarming rate. The cleric was having difficulty keeping him propped up. After the pull, the cleric needed quite a while to regain enough mana to get back to full. We got through it and a few more pulls like that. They just didn't have the gear to handle mobs of that difficulty.Then our druid said something like "Let Leatherneck tank and I'll heal. You guys just DPS."He didn't mean anything by it, but my character was a DPS oriented character wearing leather armor and the druid was a second tier healer at the time. They agreed and we proceeded to rip through the mobs like nothing.To put this in perspective for people who haven't played EQ1, imagine being a guardian and being told "Hey, let the assasin tank". That's pretty much what happened. Yes, it was the most efficient way to do it, but I'm not convinced it was the best way. I'm sure the warrior and the cleric felt cruddy about it because as soon as the thing was over, they said "Got to go!" and that was that.The guild I'm in now is full of great people. We don't have all that many players, but we're a level 60 guild. On the other hand, we have a hard time putting together enough people to fill out a Blades raid. We "work" hard at playing hard and I have never heard anyone griping about gear disparity.However it is with gear disparity that elitism, whether intentional or not, is born. This can also cause resentment and gear envy.I'm not sure what the answer is. It's not "fair" to have raiders gear be the same as, say my gear. On the other hand, it would be pretty sad to be a Guardian told to DPS while this Swashbuckler tanks..and they do a better job.

interstellarmatter

09-06-2007, 01:23 PM

<cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have excellent organizational skills and our guild has no shortage of leadership endowed people. However we have a really hard time getting together 24 individuals for 4 to 6 hours of continous uninterrupt game time.We are hopeful and very much looking forward to the new persistent instance feature being expanded down into the "lesser" raid zones since it means we will finally be able to pick away at them an hour at a time. but unfortunately that does not address the act of god needed to collect 24 people we know and trust to come online at the exact same time.We work, we have families, we have lives. We work to play the game and have fun. We don't consider playing the game work and an obligation to be "the best" or to be the "server first" for any one item, kill, or raid.</blockquote>Most raids only take around 2 hours. If it is taking 4 to 6, you are doing something wrong. There is no act of God to get 24 people together. It's rather easy. We schedule a raid for the guild. After seeing who shows up, we put out a call in level chat to fill the raid force. Many good players are waiting to be picked up for raids. Some nights go well others don't. That's the fun of it. Raiding in EQ2 is done by many casual players. I raid twice a week and never spend more than 5 to 6 hours a week playing.

Allurana

09-06-2007, 01:34 PM

<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have excellent organizational skills and our guild has no shortage of leadership endowed people. However we have a really hard time getting together 24 individuals for 4 to 6 hours of continous uninterrupt game time.We are hopeful and very much looking forward to the new persistent instance feature being expanded down into the "lesser" raid zones since it means we will finally be able to pick away at them an hour at a time. but unfortunately that does not address the act of god needed to collect 24 people we know and trust to come online at the exact same time.We work, we have families, we have lives. We work to play the game and have fun. We don't consider playing the game work and an obligation to be "the best" or to be the "server first" for any one item, kill, or raid.</blockquote>Most raids only take around 2 hours. If it is taking 4 to 6, you are doing something wrong. There is no act of God to get 24 people together. It's rather easy. We schedule a raid for the guild. After seeing who shows up, we put out a call in level chat to fill the raid force. Many good players are waiting to be picked up for raids. Some nights go well others don't. That's the fun of it. Raiding in EQ2 is done by many casual players. I raid twice a week and never spend more than 5 to 6 hours a week playing. </blockquote>I respectfully submit that our EQ2 experiences have been vastly different then.We have tried the open level channel thing - we don't make that mistake anymore.I personally have never been to a x 4 raid that from the first minute you arrive at the meeting point until the raid is successfully completed that it only takes 2 hours. Usually it is 2 hours just to get everyone there (once again, open channels and people goofing around).I am honestly not arguing with your statements, I am just saying that my EQ2 experience is much different than yours. The game is still not "accessible" to me and my guild for anything X4 oriented and tier appropriate.

Lionidas

09-06-2007, 02:00 PM

Well I'm back and read through everyone's posts since last night. I am happy that I did get a lot of honest answers from people. Here are a few things I would like to add.1. I see many people have quoted Dasein's post and said it is very true while others have commented on the loot obtained in raid's being the best. Now on the other hand you have people saying that Raid gear is intended for raids. Perhaps this might be attributed to a design flaw from the Dev's? We have all seen items in game that do not work on epics. Why not make items that only work on epics, some that only work on heroics and some that only work on solo mobs? So someone may have the best raiding gear possible but not necessarily the best group gear. This would allow each sector of the game to obtain gear that is equally good to their playstyle and also give more things to collect for those that are always looking for more content.Last point on the gear. It has been brought up by many people about raiders in fabled armor trivializing solo and group content. This may be true in some cases but I have also seen wizards in treasured/hand crafted gear soloing named mobs. A friend of mine (illusionist) can solo Nest without any raiding gear. It may again be a point of seen one seen them all do it thing.2. If anyone reads this thread and walks away with anything, have it be that most of us raiders loath the uber, l33tz, trash talking kids that have been brought up time and time again. The best raiders in the business take serious pride in their accomplishments and their characters.You would be surprised but a majority of us raiders are actually older than 20. Some raiding guilds actually have age restrictions. We have had grandparents in our guild! Many of us treat our online image the same as our real life image. We wouldn't be running around our job or a mall being disrespectful to people and hold our selves to the same standard in the game.3. I see many former EQ1 players saying that they were burned out on raiding. I too was a former EQ1 raider. I started when the game came out and lasted till Shadows of Lucian came out. My schedule changed and my guild fell apart so I spent the last few months crafting /sigh lol.But times have really changed since then. The commitment level is so much less now than it was back then. Raiding can still be fun but it all depends on who you are doing it with.4. To Allurana and the others that would like to raid but have limited amounts of people or the people that are discouraged by the x4 title. Do not let this fool you! Labs can easily be done with 2 groups in non-fabled gear.Here is what you do. Get the MT group set up first.1. MT (any class will do)2. Templar or Inquisitor3. Defiler or Mystic4. Hate buffer (Dirge is the best but you can also use a Coercer, Swash or Assassin)5. Hate buffer 2 (Remember that you need a different class than #4 but you can also put in an Illusionist here for power regen and buffs)6. Depending on how things are going you can put a druid or another hate buffer here.Now get your dps group set up.1. Healer (any will do)2. Mana Regen (a bard works best but an illusionist or coercer also work well)3. Any4. Any5. Any6. AnyThe most imporant things to remember:1. The tank needs to learn to body pull. This will stop you from getting adds. Also always spin the mobs around so their backs are to the raid.2. Pre-buff and heal the tank. The initial hits from the mobs are the hardest. If you have all your temp buffs and specialty heals going it makes the encounters much easier.3. Debuff! The most important thing on raids. This not only makes it easier to hit them and them hitting you for less but also allows the tank time to get some aggro built up. DO NOT NUKE IN THE FIRST 3 SECONDS!4. All healers are on the tank and heal their groups with group heals.5. Everyone needs to help kill the mob. Do not underestimate what healers and other typical non-DPS classes add.If you keep these things in mind it makes things go smoother for you.

Leatherneck

09-06-2007, 02:12 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>We have all seen items in game that do not work on epics. Why not make items that only work on epics, some that only work on heroics and some that only work on solo mobs? So someone may have the best raiding gear possible but not necessarily the best group gear. This would allow each sector of the game to obtain gear that is equally good to their playstyle and also give more things to collect for those that are always looking for more content.</blockquote>I don't think that's going to work out very well. I don't know what the raiding scene in EQ2 is now, but I do know a big complaint in EQ1 was having to maintain multiple sets of gear (Fire resist for this mob, disease resist for this mob, DPS gear, tanking gear, CR gear). I know it was a huge relief to people when gear evolved to the point where your exping/grouping gear was your raiding gear. I also remember people not being happy with giantbane and dragonbane spells because they were 'required' to fight certain mobs.I also know that I took great joy in being able to solo things that took group content.One compromise might be to have gear that scales. It has one set of stats (albeit very nice) when facing a heroic mob and a different set when facing an epic. You might even differentiate further when it's an epic x2 and a epic x4. Now if that's what you mean in the quoted section, we're on the same page. However, it sounded like you meant it would be relatively worthless when fighting solo/heroic mobs.

NiteWolfe

09-06-2007, 02:22 PM

<cite>Leatherneck wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>We have all seen items in game that do not work on epics. Why not make items that only work on epics, some that only work on heroics and some that only work on solo mobs? So someone may have the best raiding gear possible but not necessarily the best group gear. This would allow each sector of the game to obtain gear that is equally good to their playstyle and also give more things to collect for those that are always looking for more content.</blockquote>I don't think that's going to work out very well. I don't know what the raiding scene in EQ2 is now, but I do know a big complaint in EQ1 was having to maintain multiple sets of gear (Fire resist for this mob, disease resist for this mob, DPS gear, tanking gear, CR gear). I know it was a huge relief to people when gear evolved to the point where your exping/grouping gear was your raiding gear. I also remember people not being happy with giantbane and dragonbane spells because they were 'required' to fight certain mobs.I also know that I took great joy in being able to solo things that took group content.One compromise might be to have gear that scales. It has one set of stats (albeit very nice) when facing a heroic mob and a different set when facing an epic. You might even differentiate further when it's an epic x2 and a epic x4. Now if that's what you mean in the quoted section, we're on the same page. However, it sounded like you meant it would be relatively worthless when fighting solo/heroic mobs.</blockquote> If i remeber right they are goign to try some thing like this in RoK gear wise. Personaly i see it as a bad choice! BTW my packs are still full of resist gear so that has not changed! iam just glad i can set up macros for resist gear now and jsut change out in 1 click. iam going to stop there because i think any thing else i say would upset some players.

Andok

09-06-2007, 02:37 PM

<cite>Leatherneck wrote:</cite><blockquote>I co-founded an awesome raid guild which would prove to be second best on the server and invited by SOE to beta test raid encounters for expansions and the like. We played smarter, not harder. Everything was about efficiency and teamwork. We consistently were engaging the trash mobs and such within 5 or so minutes of the posted raid time. I personally led many of those raids.It was a great and fun time in my life. It was exciting to grow this guild. When we started, a guild meeting meant 6 of us. By sticking to rigid standards by which we judged a player, not the character, within 8 months we were a force. That guild is still going today, over 5 years now.</blockquote>Ah, I remember your name now. That was Science of War, right?

TuinalOfTheNexus

09-06-2007, 02:38 PM

<cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote>For me, it is such a horrible waste that there's these fantastic stories all over the place, and the best I'll ever get of them are the bits and pieces I can solo or get a group for and the cliff-notes versions I can find on the lore boards. It's like giving me a library of novels by Pratchet, Tolkien, Asimov, Anthony, Zelanzney, and a dozen of others, but tearing out the last 5 chapters in every book. It's just wrong.</blockquote>I think the sub-Tolkien nature of EQ2, the shallow, morally unambiguous quests and their amateurish dialogs would be mocked even by Terry Pratchett. They're at best the kind of fiction that's read in desperation at railway stations.And you miss extremely little by not raiding, something they did intentionally with SoD. In fact there's so little raid lore and it's so inaccessible (e.g. book quests), that I still don't know why the hell I kill Wuoshi every week other than for the shiny loot.

Lionidas

09-06-2007, 02:44 PM

<cite>Leatherneck wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>We have all seen items in game that do not work on epics. Why not make items that only work on epics, some that only work on heroics and some that only work on solo mobs? So someone may have the best raiding gear possible but not necessarily the best group gear. This would allow each sector of the game to obtain gear that is equally good to their playstyle and also give more things to collect for those that are always looking for more content.</blockquote>I don't think that's going to work out very well. I don't know what the raiding scene in EQ2 is now, but I do know a big complaint in EQ1 was having to maintain multiple sets of gear (Fire resist for this mob, disease resist for this mob, DPS gear, tanking gear, CR gear). I know it was a huge relief to people when gear evolved to the point where your exping/grouping gear was your raiding gear. I also remember people not being happy with giantbane and dragonbane spells because they were 'required' to fight certain mobs.I also know that I took great joy in being able to solo things that took group content.One compromise might be to have gear that scales. It has one set of stats (albeit very nice) when facing a heroic mob and a different set when facing an epic. You might even differentiate further when it's an epic x2 and a epic x4. Now if that's what you mean in the quoted section, we're on the same page. However, it sounded like you meant it would be relatively worthless when fighting solo/heroic mobs.</blockquote>Right now most raiders have multiple sets of gear on them. Tank gear, solo gear, dps gear, healing gear, resist gear (not so much anymore tho) but to a certain degree most already have a form of this on them.Scaling items would be fine, a good comparison would be the way the Brawler's Devastation Fist works, and I am not saying its perfect just that it scales vs the type of mob. This way the tag that came with the item might actually mean something as right now there are many items that have Fabled on them that are junk and many Treasured items that are better than anything else for that slot for certain classes.Either way would work I think and it may also lessen the tension between playstyles and also make it easier for itemization to mean something in the game.

Ranja

09-06-2007, 02:51 PM

<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have excellent organizational skills and our guild has no shortage of leadership endowed people. However we have a really hard time getting together 24 individuals for 4 to 6 hours of continous uninterrupt game time.We are hopeful and very much looking forward to the new persistent instance feature being expanded down into the "lesser" raid zones since it means we will finally be able to pick away at them an hour at a time. but unfortunately that does not address the act of god needed to collect 24 people we know and trust to come online at the exact same time.We work, we have families, we have lives. We work to play the game and have fun. We don't consider playing the game work and an obligation to be "the best" or to be the "server first" for any one item, kill, or raid.</blockquote>Most raids only take around 2 hours. If it is taking 4 to 6, you are doing something wrong. There is no act of God to get 24 people together. It's rather easy. We schedule a raid for the guild. After seeing who shows up, we put out a call in level chat to fill the raid force. Many good players are waiting to be picked up for raids. Some nights go well others don't. That's the fun of it. Raiding in EQ2 is done by many casual players. I raid twice a week and never spend more than 5 to 6 hours a week playing. </blockquote>This was my point a couple of posts back. Casual are under the misconception that raids take forever. Our raid block is 3 hours. We can do any zone we chose in those three hours. We have a sign up on our website and if you are not there at the appointed time, someone who is ready takes your place. All of our raids start and end on time. I raid twice a week as well and I spend no more than 6 hours a week playing. Now that is casual.The problem is I think, is that for non-raiding guilds (like my old guild) it was a pain in the [Removed for Content] getting everyone together on time. Raids took hours just to form up and then we wiped over and over again. This turned a 2 hour zone into 5-6 hours and that is where the misperception comes from. Hell, I tried MoA with my old guild 6 times. Each time we spent at least 5 hours in there and one time we spent 8 <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> When I moved to my new guild, we did it in 30 minutes.

Leatherneck

09-06-2007, 03:00 PM

<cite>Andok wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Leatherneck wrote:</cite><blockquote>I co-founded an awesome raid guild which would prove to be second best on the server and invited by SOE to beta test raid encounters for expansions and the like. We played smarter, not harder. Everything was about efficiency and teamwork. We consistently were engaging the trash mobs and such within 5 or so minutes of the posted raid time. I personally led many of those raids.It was a great and fun time in my life. It was exciting to grow this guild. When we started, a guild meeting meant 6 of us. By sticking to rigid standards by which we judged a player, not the character, within 8 months we were a force. That guild is still going today, over 5 years now.</blockquote>Ah, I remember your name now. That was Science of War, right?</blockquote>I see my infamy proceeds me.

Andok

09-06-2007, 03:48 PM

<cite>Leatherneck wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Andok wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Leatherneck wrote:</cite><blockquote>I co-founded an awesome raid guild which would prove to be second best on the server and invited by SOE to beta test raid encounters for expansions and the like. We played smarter, not harder. Everything was about efficiency and teamwork. We consistently were engaging the trash mobs and such within 5 or so minutes of the posted raid time. I personally led many of those raids.It was a great and fun time in my life. It was exciting to grow this guild. When we started, a guild meeting meant 6 of us. By sticking to rigid standards by which we judged a player, not the character, within 8 months we were a force. That guild is still going today, over 5 years now.</blockquote>Ah, I remember your name now. That was Science of War, right?</blockquote>I see my infamy proceeds me.</blockquote>I wasn't a raider, so I never met you in game. I just remember you and Vova on the boards.

Ravaan

09-06-2007, 04:42 PM

I think what happens is the game becomes ONLY about raiding ... because of the hardcore raiders and thats why lots of people despise them. they try to take every game out there and turn it into a raiding only game. I've seen that with warhammer and Age of conan, constantly people asking for more raids ... even though the games are designed around PVP. And god forbid if you try to add anything for the solo or group oriented, because they will complain about how the game is being dumbed down so anyone can get loot.also i think a lot of them especially the hardcore guild do have an elitist attitude. i don't know how many times i have seen someone complaining about tanking only to have one of these raiders say "well you just suck i have seen an "insert classes" of my guild tank it no problem." ... great except that person has full avatar gear or whatever which maybe .5% of the population has.to sum up raiders are hated because everything in the game seems to have to cater to them.

Catsy

09-06-2007, 04:48 PM

I made the mistake of wading into a discussion about this a while back, although in fairness that thread was more of a flamefest revolving around one particular antagonist. My feelings on the matter were summed up pretty well in my <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=362612&post_id=4105959#4105959" target="_blank">response there</a>, but for the record, my thoughts on some of the common misconceptions about raiding:Raiding requires too much free timeNot true. There are quite a few x2 (two group) raids that can be done in less than 15 minutes, such as Crab in the Isle of Mara. For x4 raids, there are zones for every level of time commitment--you can do Clockwork in about 15-20 minutes, FTH in around an hour to an hour and a half, and so on all the way up to the intimidatingly long Emerald Halls. Pick your poison. Honestly, I don't understand this argument coming from people who frequently spend hours in heroic pickup groups. Yes, it'll take more time to do these zones until you get good at them. But the same is true of heroic zones--I doubt most of us got to the bottom of Sanctum on our first outing.Raiding requires lots of plat and uber equipment and stuffThere is an element of truth to this. For the higher-end raid zones and some of the harder named, treasured and mastercrafted gear isn't going to cut it. And in a perverse irony, the more decked out you get in fabled equipment, the more expensive your repair bills get. But you can have great success at raiding without all that stuff, and on a very low budget.We can't get 24 people to all be on at the same time for a raidOrganization is important to raiding, no doubt. But if you can't muster enough people for a x4 raid, or don't have adequate equipment to take on starting raid zones, try raiding the previous tier. Ten or twelve level 70 toons can have a blast raiding T6 content--it's easy, fun, good practice, and high-end T6 fabled gear is frequently an upgrade to T7 treasured and even some legendary. On my server, Guk, there's a player named Starsong who does an incredible public service: she works hard to organize "community" raids that give casual players a chance to get a taste of what raiding is like, and complete epic quests and see content they might not otherwise see. Ask around if anyone is doing anything like that on your server, or team up with another guild or two to pool your resources and assemble a full raid.I have a family/job/iguana/etc so I can't raidThat's not an absolute blocker. I have a wife, a son in first grade, friends and a cat who all compete for my time. I have a full-time career in IT. My guild raids between three and five days a week, and I'm not required to attend all of them. I usually make it to two or three. They start at 5-6pm PDT and run for two to three hours. I do occasionally pull wife agro--but that's not the fault of raiding per se, it's my fault for overdoing it. :> Are there hardcode raiding guilds who are on the game for hours every day and are effectively on call for contested named? Sure. But that's not me, and it doesn't have to be you.I don't want to become one of those elitist annoying raiders that I hateSo don't. But don't let that stop you from raiding.Once, I had the kind of attitude that I now find largely inexplicable, bordering on contempt for raiders and their elitism, and thinking that unlike them, I had a life. I was jealous of some of the gear they had access to, but I hated some of the attitudes I got from the raiding evangelist types. I was (sort of) happy with my small guild of half a dozen people, and couldn't imagine myself enjoying the kind of thing that raiding seemed to represent.One day I grouped with an SK and a few of his guildies in PoA. It was one of the best group experiences I'd ever had, and he extended an invitation to me to join the guild he was in. I agonized over it quite a bit. I didn't want to be disloyal to my old guildies, who had mostly faded from the game anyway. I wasn't sure if I could cut it, even though this new friend assured me that raiding was NOT required of me and that they'd help teach me what I needed to know. I haven't looked back.So why would you want to raid?A lot of you probably wouldn't. It's not that I'm better than you, it's just that you wouldn't enjoy it, or have tried it and know you don't. Some of you would enjoy it, but won't give it a chance, or did but had a bad experience with a pickup raid. I know what some of you enjoy about casual heroic and solo play--that used to be me. Among the things I enjoy about raiding:- Teamwork. For the harder heroic zones, your whole group has to work together well and know their roles in order to overcome challenges. In raids, this is even more important. There's a sense of camaraderie, of being a part of something greater than yourself, that I haven't gotten from any other part of the game. It's a good feeling.- Challenge. Sure, some of the lower-end raid zones, particularly in KoS, mostly boil down to pull and burn, just with 24 people instead of 6. They're training grounds. But as you progress, you find that strategy becomes more and more critical. And even once you have a working strategy, you need to be able to effectively execute it. Outside of T8 heroic zones like Nizara and CMM, nothing else challenges me in EQ2, certainly not the relentless tedium of most quests.- Reward. Let's face it--most of us like loot. It's not my only focus in the game, but winning a really cool item sure is a thrill. And there's very little loot in heroic zones to equal what you can get from raiding. Whether or not this is fair is an argument for another day--for now, that's just the way it is. Raiding also earns you status points, and there's a considerable amount of AA experience to be had from taking down epic named for the first time.- Access. If I choose to only solo, then the only content I will experience is solo content. If I choose to do heroic content, then I can see both heroic and solo content as I choose, but I will never see raid content. If I choose to raid, however... then there is nothing in the game that I cannot see or experience, and I am limited only by my will and motivation. I'm getting the most value for my money out of the game that I can.Where some of the perceptions of elitism come from is the fact that raid content is higher in the content progression than heroic content, just as heroic content is on a higher tier than solo content. With solo content, you can do everything yourself, and typically fairly easily, so the rewards are relatively modest. You get better rewards and more challenging encounters in heroic content than solo content, because you have more people to try to organize and the content is generally more difficult. The same is true of x2 raid content compared to heroic content, and x4 raid content compared to x2 content. It's not a value judgement. Raiders aren't "better" than groupers, except perhaps in the objective sense of how they're geared, with the same being true of groupers versus soloers. It's just a progression. It's not personal. I don't look down on people who don't raid. They've made a choice about their playing style, just as I have. What I do ask is that they set aside their stereotypes of raiders, and not try to pigeonhole us as a minority of whiners based on the disproportionate noise made by obnoxious raiders. They get noticed because they're noisy, not because they're representative of what we are. Please understand that we have just as much right to have SOE spend time making content for us as you do.Raiders are players just like you, and raiding success isn't about how hardcore you are, or having all master spells, or how much money or free time you have. It's about organization, teamwork, and persistence. Give it a chance sometime--who knows, you might find that you enjoy it. ;)

Lionidas

09-06-2007, 05:00 PM

<cite>Yannos@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think what happens is the game becomes ONLY about raiding ... because of the hardcore raiders and thats why lots of people despise them. they try to take every game out there and turn it into a raiding only game. I've seen that with warhammer and Age of conan, constantly people asking for more raids ... even though the games are designed around PVP. And god forbid if you try to add anything for the solo or group oriented, because they will complain about how the game is being dumbed down so anyone can get loot.also i think a lot of them especially the hardcore guild do have an elitist attitude. i don't know how many times i have seen someone complaining about tanking only to have one of these raiders say "well you just suck i have seen an "insert classes" of my guild tank it no problem." ... great except that person has full avatar gear or whatever which maybe .5% of the population has.to sum up raiders are hated because everything in the game seems to have to cater to them.</blockquote>After reading the forums everyday and going through all of the posts this is not an unexpected answer. With the game only being about raiding I don't see that in EQ2 at all. If we look at some of the content that has been added after EoF:1. Neriak2. Darklight Woods3. Arasai4. Unrest5. New Tunarian Throne Room6. Sword of Destiny Quests7. Revamp of older zonesAlso look at all the rest such as new UI features, broker changes, tons of new crafting items and things too numerous to mention. I would have to say that 95%+ is not only geared toward raids alone or even involve raiding. Remember that most raiders are crafters, questers, soloists, do group content, read the lore and level alts.Again I would have to say the feelings on loot are not as perceived. It is not that hardcore raiders do not want anyone to get good loot. Quite the contrary we want every level to get great items for that level. However it is disheartening when you spend hours working on a zone and kill the boss to get a weapon that does not even work against epics, which are exactly what you killed to get it. Yet at the same time you can kill a heroic mob that drops a weapon that works against epics that is better than any other item in the game. I hope you can see that this is the major problem with itemization in the game and one that if fixed would alleviate many of the issues between the different playstyles. Finally, there have been many topics on things becoming easier in the game, but did not involve raiders. I am referring to Commonlands, Nektulous Forrest and Antonica. Many players liked the mixture of solo and heroic mobs and lowering the challenge of overland zones was not a desired change. Most players I would conclude do not want things handed to them and this would apply to raiders and non-raiders alike.

Giral

09-06-2007, 05:46 PM

theres alot of good loot to bad had from Group zones, Signet of light from dark,Unrest cloak,Novum Tectum,Sage cloak, Full suit's of class gear, etc,,, i have had Fabled items drop from Herioc Names , Blightwhip in Rivervale ,group of 3 names at the pond in Fallengate, a 3rd fabled that i dont remeber who dropped it BUt i only Group with this charatcer and never solo or raid with him. think Name in Ancients table dropped a Fabled Forearm piece(if not ancients maybe was Casa Mesa?) so there is Some realy Nice Legendary gear out there from Group content, and there is Some "Fabled" Loot from Group content it's pretty easy to browse the forums for Gear , and then make a list and work on getting those pieces. i believe if you had a full group of 6 people All in Class gear from instance zones,with Full adornments,each person in group had the Best Groupzone item drop's in the game, and mostly master/adpt3 will find any zone in the game trivial except CMM and Nizara and even they would be 100 % doable with No deaths in this group, and to me that makes them = to a fully fabled /master'd group for theses zones and to add to why hate raider's ? i feel it's the same Type of Personalities that Join Roleplay server's and then join your group and when you try to Roleplay they say in Group chat " Do we have to do that Role play CRAP", they are just negative people that what ever someone else is doing and enjoying they must Rip it down to make themselves feel better, Uber raider might do it by Belittling a casual, and a casual might do it by ridiculing a Full fabled, but that's what makes them feel better about themselves, a Normal Happy person would care less about what Player A,B,C, does weather its RP, Raid,Group,solo, it wouldn't effect them at all i have met some very helpfull raider's , very helpfull casual's, and IMO the Helpfull people FAr FAR FAr Out distance the Negative hate monger solo/group/raider's i would say its a 95 to 5 % Ratio but again the 5 % being the Loudmouth's in Lvl chat that might draw a picture for other's to become biased and then that %% has one more Hater to join there little click of Ignorance i also think there should be some Mystical Solo Quest lines, they could be = to Claymore quest line, and the end item would be something very Usefull to SOLOing ( I think the LON 100 % Mana Reg One a day Loot card, would have been a MUCH better item for a SOLO only Quest reward then a random reward for a Cargame ) , BUT i do NOT see the reason why there Aren't Solo quest lines of this Caliber, if you can get a WArg with 50% run speed just by Spending RL money on Card packs, or win one, or trade one, Why would there be no rewards of this type for an extremly chalanging Solo Quest line that would take a Month + to complete ? Mystical Solo quest line that end's in a Mystical item (Not MYTHical) Heritage quest lines that end in a LEgendary/Fabled Peice and Raid questlines that are very long and hard to grant Demigod Pieces (o ok we just call them fabled dont want to start the whole Loot debate over a Silly Name differance all over again : )

Dasein

09-06-2007, 07:29 PM

<cite>Sotanyavejin@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Raiding requires too much free timeNot true. There are quite a few x2 (two group) raids that can be done in less than 15 minutes, such as Crab in the Isle of Mara. For x4 raids, there are zones for every level of time commitment--you can do Clockwork in about 15-20 minutes, FTH in around an hour to an hour and a half, and so on all the way up to the intimidatingly long Emerald Halls. Pick your poison. Honestly, I don't understand this argument coming from people who frequently spend hours in heroic pickup groups. Yes, it'll take more time to do these zones until you get good at them. But the same is true of heroic zones--I doubt most of us got to the bottom of Sanctum on our first outing.</blockquote>I want to comment on a few things here:1. There are very few x2 encounters in the game: AoA x2, Crab and Roost are pretty much it for T7 x2 instances, and both of those are from an adventure pack not everyone has. Roost requires everyone to be on the final step, or have completed the access quest. AoA x2 is not worth it given the HP of the encounters and the utterly lack-luster drops. There's a handful of contested x2 content as well, but again, it is not really worth it, and certainly not the sort of thing one can reliably schedule, since it is contested. The guild raids are OK, but the loot is not close to being up to par with heroic-level loot from EoF. Finally, x2 content all together is being phased out in RoK.2. You seem to be grossly underestimating the time it takes to do zones like FTH or Clockwork Menace. While it's true a well equipped and experienced raid force can do these zones quickly, a less experienced raid will very quickly get bogged down in learning these encounters. Further, a more casual raid will not have the optimal mix of classes you can find in most dedicated raid guilds. 3. Raiding can prove very frustrating early on - instead of clearing FTH in an hour, imagine spending 3 hours wiping to Shredder over and over, and you end the night with a big repair bill and lots of demoralized guildmates. That's the reality for many people. To add insult to injury, after a few unsuccessful raids, you start losing people to other guilds, or people simply stop bothering to raid. I've seen many guilds destroyed through raiding, as the constant failures, the reduction of friends and guildmates to nothing but needed classes and abilities, and the obsession with min-maxing and rigid control drives people away and breaks down the guild.As a guild leader, perhaps the hardest and most damaging aspect of the raid game is the degree to which it forces me to think of my guildmates simply as classes and ability sets. I cannot think of them in terms of friends, but only as numbers and abilities because that's what is needed to stand any chance of success in most raids. I know a number of the more hardcore raid guilds have a 'no friends' policy for just that reason: if your class falls out of favor, if rule changes make the otpimal raid setup different and there's no longer as much need for your class as another, then you're out. It makes no difference if you're a good guy or not, the numbers dictate who comes and who gets left behind. Is that what we want from these games?

Lodrelhai

09-06-2007, 07:53 PM

<cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote>This was my point a couple of posts back. Casual are under the misconception that raids take forever. Our raid block is 3 hours. We can do any zone we chose in those three hours. We have a sign up on our website and if you are not there at the appointed time, someone who is ready takes your place. All of our raids start and end on time. I raid twice a week as well and I spend no more than 6 hours a week playing. Now that is casual.The problem is I think, is that for non-raiding guilds (like my old guild) it was a pain in the [I cannot control my vocabulary] getting everyone together on time. Raids took hours just to form up and then we wiped over and over again. This turned a 2 hour zone into 5-6 hours and that is where the misperception comes from. Hell, I tried MoA with my old guild 6 times. Each time we spent at least 5 hours in there and one time we spent 8 <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> When I moved to my new guild, we did it in 30 minutes. </blockquote>I'd like to respectfully point out that if something actually happens, then the belief that it happens is not a misconception.It's true that a well-organized raiding guild can schedule a raid, start it on time, and finish it quickly and efficiently. But first that organization has to be learned, not just to get people together on time but also to know what buffs/debuffs/attacks/tricks of your choice should be used when. I've joined a couple pickup raids, and my first question on getting into the group is what buffs do people want me playing. It's not because I don't know my own buffs, but because my perceptions of what are good do not necessarily match those of the people I'm working with. And if they've been through the zone before, they know better than me what kind of damage the mobs do and how to best defend against them.You yourself mention your old guild taking hours to do a zone that your new one does in 30 minutes. I'd venture to say your new guild has more experienced people organizing the raids, people who've done them before or at least studied them carefully and know the routine. Those in your guild new to raiding learn by the example set, and things go smoothly.There's all sorts of things that are easy if you know how to do them. I can strip and rebuild a car engine if I need to - and have more than once. A dear friend takes her car in for oil changes and brake pad replacements because she can't figure out how to do it on her own. Familiarity is key.

Lortet

09-06-2007, 08:18 PM

<cite>Sotanyavejin@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>So why would you want to raid?A lot of you probably wouldn't. It's not that I'm better than you, it's just that you wouldn't enjoy it, or have tried it and know you don't. Some of you would enjoy it, but won't give it a chance, or did but had a bad experience with a pickup raid. I know what some of you enjoy about casual heroic and solo play--that used to be me. Among the things I enjoy about raiding:- Teamwork. For the harder heroic zones, your whole group has to work together well and know their roles in order to overcome challenges. In raids, this is even more important. There's a sense of camaraderie, of being a part of something greater than yourself, that I haven't gotten from any other part of the game. It's a good feeling.- Challenge. Sure, some of the lower-end raid zones, particularly in KoS, mostly boil down to pull and burn, just with 24 people instead of 6. They're training grounds. But as you progress, you find that strategy becomes more and more critical. And even once you have a working strategy, you need to be able to effectively execute it. Outside of T8 heroic zones like Nizara and CMM, nothing else challenges me in EQ2, certainly not the relentless tedium of most quests.</blockquote>As an anti-raid (note the difference to anti-raidER) player - thse two "why would you want to" points go a long way to hitting the nail on the head for my reasons NOT to raid. They describe my work. I work in a para-medical team with all the challenging teamwork I want to face in a day. I play for fun and relaxation. Sure I group - but only to do a short task or and instance - I would rather help a guildie, chat and stop to smell the digital roses.I really resent changes to my characters aimed at making them raid desirable - my SK wants his STR back and wants it now!

Catsy

09-06-2007, 08:55 PM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>1. There are very few x2 encounters in the game: AoA x2, Crab and Roost are pretty much it for T7 x2 instances, and both of those are from an adventure pack not everyone has. Roost requires everyone to be on the final step, or have completed the access quest. AoA x2 is not worth it given the HP of the encounters and the utterly lack-luster drops. The guild raids are OK, but the loot is not close to being up to par with heroic-level loot from EoF. </blockquote>That's fair. I never said x2 raids were teh awesomesauce, just that they were a stepping stone. It's unfortunate that x2 is being phased out in RoK, but I guess that's just how it goes. Still, you're forgetting that you can easily two-group x4 content from the previous tier in mastercrafted gear; it's fun and it's great practice.<cite></cite><cite></cite> <blockquote>2. You seem to be grossly underestimating the time it takes to do zones like FTH or Clockwork Menace. While it's true a well equipped and experienced raid force can do these zones quickly, a less experienced raid will very quickly get bogged down in learning these encounters. Further, a more casual raid will not have the optimal mix of classes you can find in most dedicated raid guilds. </blockquote> Fair enough. When we first cleared FTH, I think it took us three or four hours, and that was after a lot of trial and error. But you don't have to clear the whole zone to call the night a success; spend an hour or so successfully taking down the first two named and you've got an accomplishment worth celebration. <blockquote><cite></cite>3. Raiding can prove very frustrating early on - instead of clearing FTH in an hour, imagine spending 3 hours wiping to Shredder over and over, and you end the night with a big repair bill and lots of demoralized guildmates.</blockquote>We did. He used to tear new holes in us weekly. :> And yes, there was a time when we lost some people due to the frustration of stagnant progress through EoF.That's where the persistence, the perseverance, comes in. If you don't have that, then no, it's not going to be fun and you're not going to succeed.We are not an elite raiding guild. Every zone for us has been a painful process of trial and error, of trying new strategies and learning from our mistakes. Few of us are fully fabled, and none of us are fully mastered. I'm not saying every guild out there will want to go through what we did. I'm saying that every guild out there /can/ if they set goals, recruit people with like goals, and stick with them. It's not about your gear or your spell quality, it's about whether or not you find raid progression a goal worthwhile enough to stick with the pain. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>As a guild leader, perhaps the hardest and most damaging aspect of the raid game is the degree to which it forces me to think of my guildmates simply as classes and ability sets. I cannot think of them in terms of friends, but only as numbers and abilities because that's what is needed to stand any chance of success in most raids. I know a number of the more hardcore raid guilds have a 'no friends' policy for just that reason: if your class falls out of favor, if rule changes make the otpimal raid setup different and there's no longer as much need for your class as another, then you're out. It makes no difference if you're a good guy or not, the numbers dictate who comes and who gets left behind. Is that what we want from these games?</blockquote>That may be true for EoF progression at the high end, but most KoS content and all T6 content can be spanked by a fairly haphazard raid force. Blowing up Labs is easy for a pickup raid to do in treasured and legendary gear, it's great for morale and there's lots of named and drops. There's nothing stopping you from raiding for fun and keeping it lighthearted. We recently decided that while we were casual, we needed to be very choosy about our group makeups for EoF progression, and so we created two tiers of raiding forces. It's caused some pain. A few people have left, and we miss them. New friends have joined, and they're wonderful. We have the casual nights where we take all comers and blow up content we've mastered, and we have more serious nights when we get selective about the raid force for progression. You decide the level of commitment. You can have raid success and your friends, too.You do make good points. I'm not saying raiding is teh best evah, and I certainly don't think everyone would enjoy it. I just want to dispel the myth that it's this elite activity that some mortals will never experience even if they wanted to. It's accessible to anyone if you want it.

rivj0r

09-06-2007, 09:03 PM

<cite>Eviljoe2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I (like most of us) started my toon and guild in a timezone that matches my playtime.If there is some reason you began in a different timezone, such as that server provided something YOUR timezone did not...then the issue to address with SOE is to make timezone servers more similar....but making raid gear available to someone who does not raid, simply because his timezone does not match up is like giving a man your car to keep just because he needs a ride across town...it would be better to simply offer him a ride.</blockquote>There was not, there is not, and there will likely never be a server in my timezone. You see, we both kinda made the same point there. Sony never nominated servers for timezones, so everyone just jumped on the server that came up originally and/or picked a name they liked the look of. I started in 2004, there wasn't yet a consolidation of folk. By the time there was too much time had been put in to re-roll and the cost is just too high.Hear that Sony? For EQ3 what you could do is nominate time zone that servers will be maintained etc and recommend them for folks in similar areas, so that people can figure out where to go to get the experience they want. <cite>NiteWolfe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>rivj0r wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>See that is the kind of honest answer I was looking for. etc etcSo for the players that do group instances, why not try a raid zone?</blockquote>I would love to get the full fabled set of gears and the look that comes with it. I think it stinks that this stuff is only available to raiding players. My not raiding isn't a personal choice, its a time zone limitation. etc etc etc</blockquote> Well since you DONT raid there is no need foryou to get the gear the legendary set will do you just as well for group content. I never understood just why none raiders think they NEED raid gear.</blockquote>Whats really neat there is you highlighted the piece you didn't read. Here, I'll put it out again "and the look that comes with it." I'm aware that you think that I and others like me don't need it, I'm also aware its better, and having it would enable me and who I play with and anyone who can get it to hit bigger targets, and complete things faster. Soo... yeah. Think it through, you can probably get where I'm coming from.Cos really your argument is flawed. If you need raid gears to complete raids then no raids would ever get completed as you've instantly got circular logic of death. So since nobody needs fabled gear, why can't everybody have it?

greenmantle

09-06-2007, 09:58 PM

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote>i have met some very helpfull raider's , very helpfull casual's, and IMO the Helpfull people FAr FAR FAr Out distance the Negative hate monger solo/group/raider's i would say its a 95 to 5 % Ratio but again the 5 % being the Loudmouth's in Lvl chat that might draw a picture for other's to become biased and then that %% has one more Hater to join there little click of Ignorance </blockquote>Have to agree sadly the 5% is loud rude and posts a lot and is the voice of the nice 95% who dont say anything to try and pull them into line. They tend to follow the i want everyone elses character nerfed because i cant mould. That any thing given to soloists or groupers is some sort of personal insult.The other once that at least gets my goat is the risk verses reward mantra, lights on folks their pixels unless you fall out of your chair when some one mt's their cyber to the whole raid there is no risk. Lastly raiders from last check are still a small minority yet it has always been a perception that "elite raid guilds" recive preferential treatment from Soe.

nia

09-07-2007, 03:46 AM

I dont really hate raiders per se but raiding does draw in some major idiots......I think the thing I dont like about some raiders is that they think they are better players than everyone else and that is just not true.....Our guild has about 200 accounts and we raid about twice a week....We have people come and go all the time often leaving for bigger raiding guilds....Most of the people that leave us are not very good players but they are level 70 and usually a DPS class.......We had a couple leave the other day, a wizard and a fury, who both thought they were great players.....The wizard had no clue how to play her class......SHe often nuked the wrong mobs, drew aggro, then would throw a fit when she didnt get immediate heals.....We tried to tell her to assist the main tank but she felt she was superior to the rest and did her own thing.....THe Fury was just as bad because she was needed more for HoTs and group heals yet more often was nuking and AEing....Needless to say neither was any loss but both felt because they liked to raid and were given some good gear by the guild that they were better players than everyone else.......

Wyrmypops

09-07-2007, 05:26 AM

I don't, won't raid. Except for quest mobs. And even then only for quests I really want to complete. I wouldn't touch most quests with epic content at all. I don't hate raiders, or feel raiding is an inferior or superior playstyle. It's just not mine. It does nothing for me. Nothing good anyway. I don't like it, raiding. I enjoy groups. Similar to enjoying a drink in the pub with a few mates, rather than a large house party of people I barely know. One aspect I do object to though, is that raiding is seemingly regarded as better, faster, bigger, harder. It ain't. It's just a playstyle. People can be on raids and do next to nothing. If that same laxity was evident in a small group them it'd impact more. For me, the best, fastest, biggest hardest content has been two or three of us taking on white and yellow group content. Epic content in otherwise epic free quest lines annoys me greatly. Reinforcing the false premise that raiding it better, faster, bigger, harder. Setting these up as "end of level bosses" is a brick wall to quest completion, resulting in a resigned sigh rather than a roar of triumph upon eventual completion. I wouldn't mind epic quest content for raiders, but epic content should keep the hell out of quest lines which are largely solo and heroic. The SoD quest line works well over the Claymore, as typical playstyles can get something appropriate for their effort, while the minority of raiders can go on to get their just desserts. I say typical and minority as per the poll SOE took on these boards a while, with only 14% I think it was favouring raiding.

Lodrelhai

09-07-2007, 05:46 AM

<cite>TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote>For me, it is such a horrible waste that there's these fantastic stories all over the place, and the best I'll ever get of them are the bits and pieces I can solo or get a group for and the cliff-notes versions I can find on the lore boards. It's like giving me a library of novels by Pratchet, Tolkien, Asimov, Anthony, Zelanzney, and a dozen of others, but tearing out the last 5 chapters in every book. It's just wrong.</blockquote>I think the sub-Tolkien nature of EQ2, the shallow, morally unambiguous quests and their amateurish dialogs would be mocked even by Terry Pratchett. They're at best the kind of fiction that's read in desperation at railway stations.And you miss extremely little by not raiding, something they did intentionally with SoD. In fact there's so little raid lore and it's so inaccessible (e.g. book quests), that I still don't know why the hell I kill Wuoshi every week other than for the shiny loot.</blockquote>I admit that, having hit the wall of needing a raid for the Peacock line, the Prismatic line, and a variety of other quests I was/am pursuing primarily for their history, I assumed the Claymore and SoD also required raids, and I'm glad to see they don't. It's also one of the main points I'm looking forward to in RoK, that I will be able to get my 'epic' weapon, it just won't be as powerful as the one belonging to someone who does the raids required to bring it to full strength. I'm hoping this means that the story about the weapon will be in the solo/group quests, and the uberness factor will be in the raid portion.As for the dialogues and moral hardlines, I do sometimes wish they were more subtle (and often wish there were middle-of-the-road options for those of us who's characters are more me-and-mine-first selfish than stab-you-in-the-back-at-first-chance evil). Nonetheless, the stories hold me, because I'm taking an active part in them. The dialogues are only a small part of the story; there's also the discovery, finding all the clues and piecing the puzzle together, and that's what keeps me going. And I do believe the dialogues have some shining moments as well. It's not a raid, so maybe off-topic, but Sarge's quest line in FG is some of the best storytelling I've ever seen in an MMORPG that didn't have a GM actively controlling it.I do still hold that there is a fair amount of story content that requires raiding, though. Even just the flavor content that can hold clues to where the story of the game is going next. I've seen random quotes posted from NPCs/mobs in Mistmoore Castle that give some intriguing hints about Mayong's past (and possibly future?). There's graphics you can find in one area and realize 'Hey! That's from this other place!" Yes, sometimes it's just reusing art, but sometimes it's the first clue to a connection between the two places and a bigger story going on. Not to mention older content that does require raids, like the Prismatic line - there's information on Kerrafym and Luclin in that line that I'd never even heard a hint of anywhere else in the game!And don't even get me started on Ghoulbane and Cauldron Hollow... though that's not so much the story for me as it is a very rude introduction to raiding. "Welcome to your first opportunity to raid! Here's 7 epics who'll pop one on top of another with no break between them!" It says something about that content that I didn't finish it until I was over 50, when I put a shout out on the level chat asking if anyone else out there still needed CH for Ghoulbane, and I had a full group plus formed and at the Nek docks in under 10 minutes.

Catsy

09-07-2007, 10:11 AM

<cite>greenmantle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The other once that at least gets my goat is the risk verses reward mantra, lights on folks their pixels unless you fall out of your chair when some one mt's their cyber to the whole raid there is no risk. </blockquote>See now, this is the kind of absurdly silly nonsense from groupers that gets /my/ goat. Arguing that the term "risk and reward" has no meaning because the players are not exposed to any real-life physical risk is like arguing that the quest journal shouldn't use the term "reward" to describe what our characters get because we don't receive a check in the mail from SOE. It's deliberately taking the phrase out of context, and the argument reflects poorly on the person making it.It's simply a fact that most x4 raids are more challenging and risky to the character than most heroic content. If you disagree, please support your position with examples of how many heroic encounters require the casters to range the mob or multi-tank, or how many heroic named encounters have quirks and strategies for defeating them anywhere near what is required to defeat Gnorbl, Treyloth, Shredder, Mayong, Rumbler, Bloodbeast, Venekor, or any number of other epic named. You have to have a strategy, even if it's a relatively simple one--and you have to get 24 people to execute it. The strategy could be as simple as "everyone stand over here during the pull, then stand directly under the named while we burn it". Or it could be as complex as, "everyone has to maintain a certain range to the named, adjust whenever he moves. He'll AOE every blah seconds, at which point we stop DPS and wait for the next AOE, then burn to the memwipe. He does a trauma AOE that must be cured immediately, because everyone afflicted with it damages both them and the top person on the hate list--usually the tank--for massive damage every second."Are there sophisticated, raid-style heroic encounters? Absolutely, and I love every one of them--I'm glad they're there for both of us to enjoy. You'll notice that most of them, incidentally, drop considerably better than the average heroic named or trash encounter. On top of all that, while you can casually raid with average equipment and have a great time, serious raiding is really expensive. Potions, power roots, totems, status clickies, and repair bills--oh, the repair biills. If I'm lucky and I only die once or twice on a raid, I spend at least 20 gold to repair. Some of us spend a couple plat per raid if we run into difficulties and have to pop a portable mender.Again, I am not making a value judgement on groupers. I am not saying that raiders are your betters, or that we deserve any kind of special consideration. What I am saying is that our playing style poses greater risk to our characters and requires more organization, coordination, and effort--strategically, tactically, and practically.So yeah, risk vs. reward--which is a pretty standard approach to establishing reward levels for any number of things, not just video games and certainly not just EQ2--is appropriate. The question is whether or not the rewards are correctly balanced based on that approach, and that /is/ open to debate.<cite></cite><blockquote><cite></cite>One aspect I do object to though, is that raiding is seemingly regarded as better, faster, bigger, harder. It ain't. </blockquote>While "better" is a subjective value judgement that's best left to the individual, the rest of this statement is just plain silly. Raiding is by definition bigger than grouping. It's frequently faster, in the sense that you have to be a lot more on the ball in most named encounters than in 99% of heroic named encounters. And as illustrated with examples above, it is absolutely harder.If you're going to persist with this line of argument, you need to support it. Again, I'm not saying that raiding or raiders are better than groupers in any value-laden sense. But this kind of absurd argument needs to be stomped out simply because it perpetuates the very schisms and misconceptions you seem to dislike.

TuinalOfTheNexus

09-07-2007, 10:31 AM

<cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do still hold that there is a fair amount of story content that requires raiding, though. Even just the flavor content that can hold clues to where the story of the game is going next. I've seen random quotes posted from NPCs/mobs in Mistmoore Castle that give some intriguing hints about Mayong's past (and possibly future?). There's graphics you can find in one area and realize 'Hey! That's from this other place!" Yes, sometimes it's just reusing art, but sometimes it's the first clue to a connection between the two places and a bigger story going on. Not to mention older content that does require raids, like the Prismatic line - there's information on Kerrafym and Luclin in that line that I'd never even heard a hint of anywhere else in the game!</blockquote>Yes, but you see, there's no lore in the raid zones themselves. You simply go in and kill things. I've no clue who D'Lizta Cheroon is, or Enynti, and all my Mayong/Wuoshi knowledge is from out-of-game and EQ1 lore. Yet we raid and kill them on a weekly basis.There are no books, clickies, or other info in raid zones that give a story. Admittedly TTR has a script that's story-like, but you could still be forgiven for not having a clue what was going on. Every dialog with an x4 is a variation on the "prepare to die!" theme. Malkonis rambles about an "Ankh" for a bit but nobody in my guild has a clue what that is.

Spyderbite

09-07-2007, 11:15 AM

I don't raid with my guild because I get up from the computer far too frequently to get more beer and doubt I'd be a productive member of the group. XD

Hollyf

09-07-2007, 11:29 AM

LOL Spyder !

Qandor

09-07-2007, 11:55 AM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I'm seriously wondering what is stopping anyone from raiding. This is not a casual vs raider or anything of that matter and is not my intent.</blockquote>This is where it gets tricky due to preconceived definitions. I am in no way casual, I dare say I log more hours daily than any raider since I'm retired, and yet I do not raid. Raids hold no interest for me. First of all, I'm not concerned about loot. I do not need the best of the best gear to perform in situations I do like, namely grouping with friends and family. Secondly, raid situations are just too structured and nearly mechanical for my tastes. I realize they almost have to be that way to get the job done under current circumstances but I really cannot get into that type of routine. So reason number two aside, how many people do you think would raid if there was no loot? Since I'm unconcerned about the loot, why would I raid?

Lionidas

09-07-2007, 01:04 PM

<cite>rivj0r wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eviljoe2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I (like most of us) started my toon and guild in a timezone that matches my playtime.If there is some reason you began in a different timezone, such as that server provided something YOUR timezone did not...then the issue to address with SOE is to make timezone servers more similar....but making raid gear available to someone who does not raid, simply because his timezone does not match up is like giving a man your car to keep just because he needs a ride across town...it would be better to simply offer him a ride.</blockquote>There was not, there is not, and there will likely never be a server in my timezone. You see, we both kinda made the same point there. Sony never nominated servers for timezones, so everyone just jumped on the server that came up originally and/or picked a name they liked the look of. I started in 2004, there wasn't yet a consolidation of folk. By the time there was too much time had been put in to re-roll and the cost is just too high.Hear that Sony? For EQ3 what you could do is nominate time zone that servers will be maintained etc and recommend them for folks in similar areas, so that people can figure out where to go to get the experience they want. <cite>NiteWolfe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>rivj0r wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>See that is the kind of honest answer I was looking for. etc etcSo for the players that do group instances, why not try a raid zone?</blockquote>I would love to get the full fabled set of gears and the look that comes with it. I think it stinks that this stuff is only available to raiding players. My not raiding isn't a personal choice, its a time zone limitation. etc etc etc</blockquote> Well since you DONT raid there is no need foryou to get the gear the legendary set will do you just as well for group content. I never understood just why none raiders think they NEED raid gear.</blockquote>Whats really neat there is you highlighted the piece you didn't read. Here, I'll put it out again "and the look that comes with it." I'm aware that you think that I and others like me don't need it, I'm also aware its better, and having it would enable me and who I play with and anyone who can get it to hit bigger targets, and complete things faster. Soo... yeah. Think it through, you can probably get where I'm coming from.Cos really your argument is flawed. If you need raid gears to complete raids then no raids would ever get completed as you've instantly got circular logic of death. So since nobody needs fabled gear, why can't everybody have it? </blockquote>I am sorry to hear that you can not find a raid guild for your time zone. It was hard for me also at first finding a PST guild so I formed my own and it has been a rough ride trying to get enough people at that time zone to fill up raids and being stuck on The Bazaar didn't help matters much (did not know what an exchange server was when I first started).I am assuming you are referring to the outward look of the armor and not what you see when you examine it so I am wondering what class you are. The reason I ask is because many classes do not like the looks of their class set at all compared to the Legendary set and prior to that most classes were a mishmash of different pieces that many had a brightly colored or gaudy look about it that most raiders found unappealing. Your last paragraph is an extremely important one that is on the mind of most of the raiders. Out of the things that are currently wrong with raiding is that equipment does not mean as much as it should. Raiders want there to be progression for zones and loot. That you have to clear zone A and get gear set 1 to go on to clear zone B. If players would look a little deeper they would realize that raider or not we have the same ideas just from different perspectives.

Lionidas

09-07-2007, 01:19 PM

<cite>Wyrmypops wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't, won't raid. Except for quest mobs. And even then only for quests I really want to complete. I wouldn't touch most quests with epic content at all. I don't hate raiders, or feel raiding is an inferior or superior playstyle. It's just not mine. It does nothing for me. Nothing good anyway. I don't like it, raiding. I enjoy groups. Similar to enjoying a drink in the pub with a few mates, rather than a large house party of people I barely know. One aspect I do object to though, is that raiding is seemingly regarded as better, faster, bigger, harder. It ain't. It's just a playstyle. People can be on raids and do next to nothing. If that same laxity was evident in a small group them it'd impact more. For me, the best, fastest, biggest hardest content has been two or three of us taking on white and yellow group content. Epic content in otherwise epic free quest lines annoys me greatly. Reinforcing the false premise that raiding it better, faster, bigger, harder. Setting these up as "end of level bosses" is a brick wall to quest completion, resulting in a resigned sigh rather than a roar of triumph upon eventual completion. I wouldn't mind epic quest content for raiders, but epic content should keep the hell out of quest lines which are largely solo and heroic. The SoD quest line works well over the Claymore, as typical playstyles can get something appropriate for their effort, while the minority of raiders can go on to get their just desserts. I say typical and minority as per the poll SOE took on these boards a while, with only 14% I think it was favouring raiding. </blockquote>Wyrm thank you for another truthful and insightful post. For the first bolded post you are correct for a majority of the encounters in the game today. That too is a major complaint among raiders is that the content sometimes is too bland and that the real enjoyable encounters such as Chel'Drak in the Isle of Mara or the Djinn Master are few and far in between. In those types of encounters everyone needs to be doing something the whole time. There are others of course that require specifics but nevertheless they are too few.Most of us agree on how the SoD reward was a great step towards defining how the "epic" questline should be. It is too bad that they did not give it the depth or length of the Claymore. Perhaps in the future they will take notes from both and have a questline that everyone can enjoy.The last sentence I would have to say is surprising to me. I would of guessed it would of been a much lower percent than that. You also have to keep in mind that if a poll was taken on how many would want crafting involved it would be a low percentage also. Anytime you combine different aspects of the game that do not necessarily go hand in hand with each other you will have a majority of the playerbase that disagrees with it.

Lionidas

09-07-2007, 01:27 PM

<cite>Qandor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I'm seriously wondering what is stopping anyone from raiding. This is not a casual vs raider or anything of that matter and is not my intent.</blockquote>This is where it gets tricky due to preconceived definitions. I am in no way casual, I dare say I log more hours daily than any raider since I'm retired, and yet I do not raid. Raids hold no interest for me. First of all, I'm not concerned about loot. I do not need the best of the best gear to perform in situations I do like, namely grouping with friends and family. Secondly, raid situations are just too structured and nearly mechanical for my tastes. I realize they almost have to be that way to get the job done under current circumstances but I really cannot get into that type of routine. So reason number two aside, how many people do you think would raid if there was no loot? Since I'm unconcerned about the loot, why would I raid?</blockquote>Unfortunately I would say not many but there are a few of us that raid for the challenge. Someone once said "Raiders loot to raid, not raid to loot" and this is something that the members of my guild have heard me say from time to time. To the "true" raiders, they raid to try an conquer and outwit the hardest encounters in the game. If asked, I am certain that a majority of these raiders would trade everything they have looted for an opportunity to be truly challenged by complex encounters on a regular basis that was not buggy or strictly impossible in their current forms.

Spyderbite

09-07-2007, 01:40 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Qandor wrote:</cite>To the "true" raiders, they raid to try an conquer and outwit the hardest encounters in the game.</blockquote>If this statement were true, then all raiding would take place on the PvP servers. ^^

Wyrmypops

09-07-2007, 01:59 PM

<cite>Sotanyavejin@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><cite></cite>One aspect I do object to though, is that raiding is seemingly regarded as better, faster, bigger, harder. It ain't. </blockquote>While "better" is a subjective value judgement that's best left to the individual, the rest of this statement is just plain silly. Raiding is by definition bigger than grouping. It's frequently faster, in the sense that you have to be a lot more on the ball in most named encounters than in 99% of heroic named encounters. And as illustrated with examples above, it is absolutely harder.If you're going to persist with this line of argument, you need to support it. Again, I'm not saying that raiding or raiders are better than groupers in any value-laden sense. But this kind of absurd argument needs to be stomped out simply because it perpetuates the very schisms and misconceptions you seem to dislike.</blockquote>Hey now, the other guy got a goat. Why don't I get anything? A monkey would be useful. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />I suspect you're doing what you acused the other guy of, taking something out of its context. In my context I used those words to suggest raiding is considered more "oooh" and superior. If you'd rather address each word, fair enough. Better, a completely subjective thing. Faster, uh huh, even I've heard of how long some of those fights can take. Bigger, the party and the mobs hit points may be bigger, but the challenge is absolutely not bigger than when one has to rely on oneself and a few others. Harder, is it most definately not absolutely harder than challenging group content taken on by a group. If you're going to persist with that line of argument then you need to, gawd know what, whatever you like. I'm all out of monkeys. If you wanted a monkey you'd be disappointed. I am a monkey-less void. I, could not, give a monkeys. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Lionidas

09-07-2007, 02:18 PM

<cite>Wyrmypops wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sotanyavejin@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><cite></cite>One aspect I do object to though, is that raiding is seemingly regarded as better, faster, bigger, harder. It ain't. </blockquote>While "better" is a subjective value judgement that's best left to the individual, the rest of this statement is just plain silly. Raiding is by definition bigger than grouping. It's frequently faster, in the sense that you have to be a lot more on the ball in most named encounters than in 99% of heroic named encounters. And as illustrated with examples above, it is absolutely harder.If you're going to persist with this line of argument, you need to support it. Again, I'm not saying that raiding or raiders are better than groupers in any value-laden sense. But this kind of absurd argument needs to be stomped out simply because it perpetuates the very schisms and misconceptions you seem to dislike.</blockquote>Hey now, the other guy got a goat. Why don't I get anything? A monkey would be useful. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />I suspect you're doing what you acused the other guy of, taking something out of its context. In my context I used those words to suggest raiding is considered more "oooh" and superior. If you'd rather address each word, fair enough. Better, a completely subjective thing. Faster, uh huh, even I've heard of how long some of those fights can take. Bigger, the party and the mobs hit points may be bigger, but the challenge is absolutely not bigger than when one has to rely on oneself and a few others. Harder, is it most definately not absolutely harder than challenging group content taken on by a group. If you're going to persist with that line of argument then you need to, gawd know what, whatever you like. I'm all out of monkeys. If you wanted a monkey you'd be disappointed. I am a monkey-less void. I, could not, give a monkeys. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>If we took the extreme examples of both grouping and raiding (prior any changes that may have occurred, taking the zone or encounter at its hardest point) then I would agree that they are relatively close in terms of challenge, this being Nizera and possibly the Antechamber of Fate. Both were at one time the most challenging zones for their related playstyles.Outside of those examples tho I would say, from experiencing both realms, that raid content for the most part is more challenging than group content in the current game. Outside of my own personal experience a good example of this would be if you would look at the number of guilds that have cleared every raid zone in the game. Compare the completion percentage of raiding zones versus group zones and I would think that the group zone's numbers would be much higher in comparison. This would lead to the assumption that there may be a higher degree of difficulty or complexity on raids versus its counterparts.Added-Myself and many people who participate in raids would also like to see more of the challenging group zones like the ones you are referring to. Raiding is not the only thing that we do in the game and the more zones, challenges and things to do the better for all of us.

Zard

09-07-2007, 02:20 PM

<cite>Sotanyavejin@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's simply a fact that most x4 raids are more challenging and risky to the character than most heroic content. If you disagree, please support your position with examples of how many heroic encounters require the casters to range the mob or multi-tank, or how many heroic named encounters have quirks and strategies for defeating them anywhere near what is required to defeat Gnorbl, Treyloth, Shredder, Mayong, Rumbler, Bloodbeast, Venekor, or any number of other epic named. You have to have a strategy, even if it's a relatively simple one--and you have to get 24 people to execute it. The strategy could be as simple as "everyone stand over here during the pull, then stand directly under the named while we burn it". Or it could be as complex as, "everyone has to maintain a certain range to the named, adjust whenever he moves. He'll AOE every blah seconds, at which point we stop DPS and wait for the next AOE, then burn to the memwipe. He does a trauma AOE that must be cured immediately, because everyone afflicted with it damages both them and the top person on the hate list--usually the tank--for massive damage every second."</blockquote>Ironically, you just described why I feel most raids are less challenging that a non-fabled trio hunting white/yellow conned heroic content in a dungeon. Predictable encounters with proven strategies is not very challenging, imo. Reacting instantly and intelligently to unexpected events is.You can defeat a scripted raid encounter every time -- once you know it and are geared for it -- if everyone just does everything they are supposed to do when they are supposed to do it. Challenging? Sure, just as challenging as being in a marching band. Me? I feel the impromptu nature of Jazz is more challenging.This is why I rarely raid except to complete quests or for the one-time AP XP. I prefer Jazz.

Lionidas

09-07-2007, 02:30 PM

<cite>Auric@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sotanyavejin@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's simply a fact that most x4 raids are more challenging and risky to the character than most heroic content. If you disagree, please support your position with examples of how many heroic encounters require the casters to range the mob or multi-tank, or how many heroic named encounters have quirks and strategies for defeating them anywhere near what is required to defeat Gnorbl, Treyloth, Shredder, Mayong, Rumbler, Bloodbeast, Venekor, or any number of other epic named. You have to have a strategy, even if it's a relatively simple one--and you have to get 24 people to execute it. The strategy could be as simple as "everyone stand over here during the pull, then stand directly under the named while we burn it". Or it could be as complex as, "everyone has to maintain a certain range to the named, adjust whenever he moves. He'll AOE every blah seconds, at which point we stop DPS and wait for the next AOE, then burn to the memwipe. He does a trauma AOE that must be cured immediately, because everyone afflicted with it damages both them and the top person on the hate list--usually the tank--for massive damage every second."</blockquote>Ironically, you just described why I feel most raids are less challenging that a non-fabled trio hunting white/yellow conned heroic content in a dungeon. Predictable encounters with proven strategies is not very challenging, imo. Reacting instantly and intelligently to unexpected events is.You can defeat a scripted raid encounter every time -- once you know it and are geared for it -- if everyone just does everything they are supposed to do when they are supposed to do it. Challenging? Sure, just as challenging as being in a marching band. Me? I feel the impromptu nature of Jazz is more challenging.This is why I rarely raid except to complete quests or for the one-time AP XP. I prefer Jazz.</blockquote>I am curious to what content you are referring to. I believe that every encounter in the game, regardless of being epic down to solo, is all scripted and/or static with the same pathing, spawns and abilities. With this being the case would not the same hold true for doing a raid zone with less than the maximum amount allowed or doing the zone with less than optimal set up?

kenm

09-07-2007, 02:38 PM

<cite>Auric@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sotanyavejin@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's simply a fact that most x4 raids are more challenging and risky to the character than most heroic content. If you disagree, please support your position with examples of how many heroic encounters require the casters to range the mob or multi-tank, or how many heroic named encounters have quirks and strategies for defeating them anywhere near what is required to defeat Gnorbl, Treyloth, Shredder, Mayong, Rumbler, Bloodbeast, Venekor, or any number of other epic named. You have to have a strategy, even if it's a relatively simple one--and you have to get 24 people to execute it. The strategy could be as simple as "everyone stand over here during the pull, then stand directly under the named while we burn it". Or it could be as complex as, "everyone has to maintain a certain range to the named, adjust whenever he moves. He'll AOE every blah seconds, at which point we stop DPS and wait for the next AOE, then burn to the memwipe. He does a trauma AOE that must be cured immediately, because everyone afflicted with it damages both them and the top person on the hate list--usually the tank--for massive damage every second."</blockquote>Ironically, you just described why I feel most raids are less challenging that a non-fabled trio hunting white/yellow conned heroic content in a dungeon. Predictable encounters with proven strategies is not very challenging, imo. Reacting instantly and intelligently to unexpected events is.You can defeat a scripted raid encounter every time -- once you know it and are geared for it -- if everyone just does everything they are supposed to do when they are supposed to do it. Challenging? Sure, just as challenging as being in a marching band. Me? I feel the impromptu nature of Jazz is more challenging.This is why I rarely raid except to complete quests or for the one-time AP XP. I prefer Jazz.</blockquote>Since when is heroic content in a dungeon not predictable? You pull mobs the exact same way every time, you get clean pulls the exact same way every time, the healer heals you the same every time, the mobs die the same every time, blah blah blah. And if you want to say you have an idiot in your group running and pulling five encounters at once in castle mistmoore, well, there's no game mechanics stopping that from happening in EH or something!There's nothing dynamic whatsoever about group content, it's just easier and as such requires less skill and gear to beat. Not to mention it has no learning curve whatsoever, you walk into a new group zone and there's no reason you can't clear it your first trip in. How many guilds cleared EH their very first trip inside?You feel weird things. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Talz

09-07-2007, 02:45 PM

At the end of the day all of the bickering and differing opinions mean nothing because people that like to downplay raiding are always defeated by their own premise.Raiding is easy and doesn't take skill. You only need a leader and twenty three monkeys with too much free time that can press buttons.If it's easy and doesn't take skill then do it. What's stopping you? Oh, not enough time. It has been pointed out time and time again that competent players don't need to devote much time into raiding in EQ2 because there isn't all that much to do. Nearly all of what there is to do can be completed fairly quickly.This isn't an acceptable answer for many because people tend to think that they're the best in their class with a guild full of people that are the best in their classes. Like in the real world, many people that lust for what they don't have because they can't or won't get it have a million excuses for why it isn't their fault.If people have the time to get level seventy then they have the time to raid with a competent guild. The time you just spent in Unrest could have been three weeks of FT.Instanced raiding is what EQ2 is all about. If it's so easy then do it. Watch two or three less hours of TV a week. Nobody is stopping you.The answer is simple but many people don't want to hear it. They know it though. Their angst makes it obvious.

Andok

09-07-2007, 02:52 PM

<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Raiding is easy and doesn't take skill. You only need a leader and twenty three monkeys with too much free time that can press buttons.If it's easy and doesn't take skill then do it. What's stopping you? </blockquote>23 monkeys?

Lionidas

09-07-2007, 03:02 PM

Malles

09-07-2007, 03:05 PM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem is, raiding tends to define the end game, such that all other end game activities (ie, everything you do after you've hit the level cap) are balanced against raiding in terms of loot quality and rewards. The assumption is that raiding carries the greatest risk, and thus must provide the best rewards, while other forms of gameplay are inferior and thus cannot provide any sort of real reward that infringes upon the quality of raid-level gear.Raiding as a whole has come to dominate PvE games - it's not limited to EQ2 by any means - and thus we see a severe lack of creativity in end-game activities. The progression of virtually all PvE games is from solo early to grouping in the mid levels to raiding at the end. Rarely do these games offer any other sorts of playstyles, nor do they offer rewards or meaningful advancement options for those who attempt to pursue alternate playstyles. There are so many possibilities for types of gameplay in MMOs that it seems such a waste of potential to see developers churn out EQ clones one after another. </blockquote>I agree, and take it a step further. Its not just the end game that gets defined, but the whole game. When raid gear comes into play, it is superior to nonraid gear (overall - not specific items). With each new expansion gear has to be better. To have better gear you need to make things more difficult/timeconsuming (generally - not specific encounters).Its just a constant elevation of time requirements and gear requirements.This was the main reason I left EQ1. It was all about gear, high end content, and increased time requirements. Not being able to join a group or partake in a specific raid because you don't have specific gear?????To me that is ludicrous. All MMORPGs succumb to this eventually.And the reason for this gets to the player base. Too many people (IMO) actually put value into the gear they wear, and how decked out they are. To me thats kinda shallow (but Im not materialistic in life) and kinda nuts (this is a game). To me bragging about gear on a character is just plain sad.I LOVED EQ! Prior to Kunark the game was just incredible. Kunark was cool as well, but that to me is when gear inflation started happening. Scars of Velious was also a lot of fun, but still more inflation.So I dont think it is raiding in itself, its the time requirements and gear requirements that [Removed for Content] people off. And its not people who raid, but the attitude of people that like to show off - the Elitist types. Not because Im jealous. I ONLY where gear and equipment that I make myself, or quest for myself or with a nonraid group. I like having gear made my by me (my characters). I dont dislike raiders, but people who feel the need to show off. These kinda of hard-core gamers are often (not always) the ones that only group with the 'perfect' group. Holy Trinity (of which I use to be part of). Decked out with specific items. They remind me of the guys (or the parents of kids) that get too into sports. Yeah, a lot of stereotyping and generalizations, but I think this is the reason for the Casual vs Hardcore strife.Mal

Lionidas

09-07-2007, 03:27 PM

<cite>Malles wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem is, raiding tends to define the end game, such that all other end game activities (ie, everything you do after you've hit the level cap) are balanced against raiding in terms of loot quality and rewards. The assumption is that raiding carries the greatest risk, and thus must provide the best rewards, while other forms of gameplay are inferior and thus cannot provide any sort of real reward that infringes upon the quality of raid-level gear.Raiding as a whole has come to dominate PvE games - it's not limited to EQ2 by any means - and thus we see a severe lack of creativity in end-game activities. The progression of virtually all PvE games is from solo early to grouping in the mid levels to raiding at the end. Rarely do these games offer any other sorts of playstyles, nor do they offer rewards or meaningful advancement options for those who attempt to pursue alternate playstyles. There are so many possibilities for types of gameplay in MMOs that it seems such a waste of potential to see developers churn out EQ clones one after another. </blockquote>I agree, and take it a step further. Its not just the end game that gets defined, but the whole game. When raid gear comes into play, it is superior to nonraid gear (overall - not specific items). With each new expansion gear has to be better. To have better gear you need to make things more difficult/timeconsuming (generally - not specific encounters).Its just a constant elevation of time requirements and gear requirements.This was the main reason I left EQ1. It was all about gear, high end content, and increased time requirements. Not being able to join a group or partake in a specific raid because you don't have specific gear?????To me that is ludicrous. All MMORPGs succumb to this eventually.And the reason for this gets to the player base. Too many people (IMO) actually put value into the gear they wear, and how decked out they are. To me thats kinda shallow (but Im not materialistic in life) and kinda nuts (this is a game). To me bragging about gear on a character is just plain sad.I LOVED EQ! Prior to Kunark the game was just incredible. Kunark was cool as well, but that to me is when gear inflation started happening. Scars of Velious was also a lot of fun, but still more inflation.So I dont think it is raiding in itself, its the time requirements and gear requirements that [Removed for Content] people off. And its not people who raid, but the attitude of people that like to show off - the Elitist types. Not because Im jealous. I ONLY where gear and equipment that I make myself, or quest for myself or with a nonraid group. I like having gear made my by me (my characters). I dont dislike raiders, but people who feel the need to show off. These kinda of hard-core gamers are often (not always) the ones that only group with the 'perfect' group. Holy Trinity (of which I use to be part of). Decked out with specific items. They remind me of the guys (or the parents of kids) that get too into sports. Yeah, a lot of stereotyping and generalizations, but I think this is the reason for the Casual vs Hardcore strife.Mal</blockquote>I am truly sorry if you ever had an experience where someone rejected you because of gear. If this honestly happened those people were extremely misinformed and I would expect that they were not a good representation of the majority of raiders.Also as I read your post a funny thought came to me when you talked about the raid gear being superior to the non-raid gear. If there was no raiding or raid zones would these items even exist? The gear in question all drop from raid zones and if they were taken out of the game that would mean that the loot that dropped in said zones would no longer be on the loot table of any mobs in the game.Going on that premise, I would assume that the reason that this gear exists, or is supposed to exist, is for the progression of raiding and taking on harder encounters. If that was the case then why would there be an issue with this gear dropping from raids for raids?

KBern

09-07-2007, 03:45 PM

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't raid with my guild because I get up from the computer far too frequently to get more beer and doubt I'd be a productive member of the group. XD</blockquote>Thats why some guildies changed the term Ninja AFK to Necro AFK. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />I cannot help if my beer evaporates too quickly.

liveja

09-07-2007, 03:49 PM

<cite>Malles wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not being able to join a group or partake in a specific raid because you don't have specific gear?????To me that is ludicrous.</blockquote>Yes, it is ludicrous, especially when it's not necessary. I went on my first raid without any raid gear, or even any specific gear; I wasn't even level 70.I've NEVER, to my knowledge, been turned down for a group because I didn't have "specific gear". This is particularly true of non-raid content, which simply doesn't need raid gear to do.In short: if you've been turned down for a group or raid because of your GEAR, that is an issue with the people who ran the group/raid, NOT with the raid game itself, & therefore there's nothing for SOE to do, because they don't have any control over things like that.

Bramwe

09-07-2007, 03:57 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malles wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not being able to join a group or partake in a specific raid because you don't have specific gear?????To me that is ludicrous.</blockquote>Yes, it is ludicrous, especially when it's not necessary. I went on my first raid without any raid gear, or even any specific gear; I wasn't even level 70.I've NEVER, to my knowledge, been turned down for a group because I didn't have "specific gear". This is particularly true of non-raid content, which simply doesn't need raid gear to do.In short: if you've been turned down for a group or raid because of your GEAR, that is an issue with the people who ran the group/raid, NOT with the raid game itself, & therefore there's nothing for SOE to do, because they don't have any control over things like that.</blockquote>Same reason many, many people think anyone but a Guardian can't be a raid tank...but that is for another thread.

KBern

09-07-2007, 03:59 PM

<cite>Wyrmypops wrote:</cite><blockquote> Bigger, the party and the mobs hit points may be bigger, but the challenge is absolutely not bigger than when one has to rely on oneself and a few others. Harder, is it most definately not absolutely harder than challenging group content taken on by a group. </blockquote>This I will have to disagree with. I have not found one grouping encounter in this game more challenging than the majority of the raid encounters.There just are not many out there. Some of the DoF and KoS instances had some rough heroic content with the boss mobs, but the majority of group and solo content is very straightforward and simplistic. That is not true with many of the raid encounters.

KBern

09-07-2007, 04:03 PM

<cite>Auric@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sotanyavejin@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's simply a fact that most x4 raids are more challenging and risky to the character than most heroic content. If you disagree, please support your position with examples of how many heroic encounters require the casters to range the mob or multi-tank, or how many heroic named encounters have quirks and strategies for defeating them anywhere near what is required to defeat Gnorbl, Treyloth, Shredder, Mayong, Rumbler, Bloodbeast, Venekor, or any number of other epic named. You have to have a strategy, even if it's a relatively simple one--and you have to get 24 people to execute it. The strategy could be as simple as "everyone stand over here during the pull, then stand directly under the named while we burn it". Or it could be as complex as, "everyone has to maintain a certain range to the named, adjust whenever he moves. He'll AOE every blah seconds, at which point we stop DPS and wait for the next AOE, then burn to the memwipe. He does a trauma AOE that must be cured immediately, because everyone afflicted with it damages both them and the top person on the hate list--usually the tank--for massive damage every second."</blockquote>Ironically, you just described why I feel most raids are less challenging that a non-fabled trio hunting white/yellow conned heroic content in a dungeon. Predictable encounters with proven strategies is not very challenging, imo. Reacting instantly and intelligently to unexpected events is.You can defeat a scripted raid encounter every time -- once you know it and are geared for it -- if everyone just does everything they are supposed to do when they are supposed to do it. Challenging? Sure, just as challenging as being in a marching band. Me? I feel the impromptu nature of Jazz is more challenging.This is why I rarely raid except to complete quests or for the one-time AP XP. I prefer Jazz.</blockquote>Try Wuoshi sometime. Not the hardest encounter in the game, but very challenging even for well geared raiders. Try Rumbler also.They are scripted, have strats, but time the AOE wrong, time your heals or cures wrong, time the adds wrong, and watch how quickly the raid wipes.it is not just knowing what is going to happen, but you have also be able to respond to those events as well as do the 23 others in the raid or the poop hits the fan pretty quickly. There are not many non-raid encounters I have seen that work like that.

Oakum

09-07-2007, 04:19 PM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malles wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem is, raiding tends to define the end game, such that all other end game activities (ie, everything you do after you've hit the level cap) are balanced against raiding in terms of loot quality and rewards. The assumption is that raiding carries the greatest risk, and thus must provide the best rewards, while other forms of gameplay are inferior and thus cannot provide any sort of real reward that infringes upon the quality of raid-level gear.Raiding as a whole has come to dominate PvE games - it's not limited to EQ2 by any means - and thus we see a severe lack of creativity in end-game activities. The progression of virtually all PvE games is from solo early to grouping in the mid levels to raiding at the end. Rarely do these games offer any other sorts of playstyles, nor do they offer rewards or meaningful advancement options for those who attempt to pursue alternate playstyles. There are so many possibilities for types of gameplay in MMOs that it seems such a waste of potential to see developers churn out EQ clones one after another. </blockquote>I agree, and take it a step further. Its not just the end game that gets defined, but the whole game. When raid gear comes into play, it is superior to nonraid gear (overall - not specific items). With each new expansion gear has to be better. To have better gear you need to make things more difficult/timeconsuming (generally - not specific encounters).Its just a constant elevation of time requirements and gear requirements.This was the main reason I left EQ1. It was all about gear, high end content, and increased time requirements. Not being able to join a group or partake in a specific raid because you don't have specific gear?????To me that is ludicrous. All MMORPGs succumb to this eventually.And the reason for this gets to the player base. Too many people (IMO) actually put value into the gear they wear, and how decked out they are. To me thats kinda shallow (but Im not materialistic in life) and kinda nuts (this is a game). To me bragging about gear on a character is just plain sad.I LOVED EQ! Prior to Kunark the game was just incredible. Kunark was cool as well, but that to me is when gear inflation started happening. Scars of Velious was also a lot of fun, but still more inflation.So I dont think it is raiding in itself, its the time requirements and gear requirements that [Removed for Content] people off. And its not people who raid, but the attitude of people that like to show off - the Elitist types. Not because Im jealous. I ONLY where gear and equipment that I make myself, or quest for myself or with a nonraid group. I like having gear made my by me (my characters). I dont dislike raiders, but people who feel the need to show off. These kinda of hard-core gamers are often (not always) the ones that only group with the 'perfect' group. Holy Trinity (of which I use to be part of). Decked out with specific items. They remind me of the guys (or the parents of kids) that get too into sports. Yeah, a lot of stereotyping and generalizations, but I think this is the reason for the Casual vs Hardcore strife.Mal</blockquote>I am truly sorry if you ever had an experience where someone rejected you because of gear. If this honestly happened those people were extremely misinformed and I would expect that they were not a good representation of the majority of raiders.Also as I read your post a funny thought came to me when you talked about the raid gear being superior to the non-raid gear. If there was no raiding or raid zones would these items even exist? The gear in question all drop from raid zones and if they were taken out of the game that would mean that the loot that dropped in said zones would no longer be on the loot table of any mobs in the game.Going on that premise, I would assume that the reason that this gear exists, or is supposed to exist, is for the progression of raiding and taking on harder encounters. If that was the case then why would there be an issue with this gear dropping from raids for raids?</blockquote>The only problem I have with the "hardcore" raiders was that their compaining was part of why SOe did the tradeskill nerf. The first time I seen any hint of retiering of all items in which tradeskill items were made almost worthless like now was to the complaint from raiders that such and such fabled item from named mob x only had one more stat then crafted legendary along with a nice proc to make it better. A dev said that yes, they realized that the item was too low compared to the crafted and that all equipment would be retiered to correct it. That was when mastercrafted which is equal to good treasured and worse then legendary was created. Then when people posted against the proposed changes the same people complaining would basically flamespray them for trying to keep tradeskilling products good where flamed by the same "raiders" who didn't think crafting should take any skill or thought and they should be able to level the tradeskill side of their character in less then a quarter of the time of an adventurer. The dev's seen things their way so we got what we got for tradeskilling now. Its kind of sad in a way that I don't even see most of those "hardcore raiders" names in the forums anymore or in game after they succeeded in getting the tradeskill side of the game to be easier and requiring less thought then playing tetris. Hmm, still a sore subject with me but then the thought of the lost potential of the tradeskill side to be as interesting as the fighting side was a big loss to the game. A lot of players left then for games with more interesting crafting sides and who TS guilds broke up. Most raiders now are not like those now but every once in a while those with the same elitism pop up again. Of course this is just my opinion on the subject of the raiding "hate". Its not as bad as it used to be IMO because most don't remember the damage done any more. Raiding is a subset of adventuring just like grouping and solo and is treated more like that now then it used to be.More like me do it casually now but thats just due to lack of level cap increases and (for my part) what seems an obvious miscommunication between the EoF set dev and the AA dev since wardens were gives melee CA's but the warden armor sets have absolutely no STR on them. Just Int like we were nuking fury's. lol. Of course that could be too because when the AA's were first designed every warden was going down the cures line until the dev's nerfed it to almost uselessness and we were forced to go to CA's due to lack of any where else usefull to put them. The CA line was not really anything more then curiosity then since EoF just came out and wardens didn't know yet how far Fury's were raised above them on the DPS side of being a druid.

Talz

09-07-2007, 04:42 PM

<cite>Oakum wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malles wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem is, raiding tends to define the end game, such that all other end game activities (ie, everything you do after you've hit the level cap) are balanced against raiding in terms of loot quality and rewards. The assumption is that raiding carries the greatest risk, and thus must provide the best rewards, while other forms of gameplay are inferior and thus cannot provide any sort of real reward that infringes upon the quality of raid-level gear.Raiding as a whole has come to dominate PvE games - it's not limited to EQ2 by any means - and thus we see a severe lack of creativity in end-game activities. The progression of virtually all PvE games is from solo early to grouping in the mid levels to raiding at the end. Rarely do these games offer any other sorts of playstyles, nor do they offer rewards or meaningful advancement options for those who attempt to pursue alternate playstyles. There are so many possibilities for types of gameplay in MMOs that it seems such a waste of potential to see developers churn out EQ clones one after another. </blockquote>I agree, and take it a step further. Its not just the end game that gets defined, but the whole game. When raid gear comes into play, it is superior to nonraid gear (overall - not specific items). With each new expansion gear has to be better. To have better gear you need to make things more difficult/timeconsuming (generally - not specific encounters).Its just a constant elevation of time requirements and gear requirements.This was the main reason I left EQ1. It was all about gear, high end content, and increased time requirements. Not being able to join a group or partake in a specific raid because you don't have specific gear?????To me that is ludicrous. All MMORPGs succumb to this eventually.And the reason for this gets to the player base. Too many people (IMO) actually put value into the gear they wear, and how decked out they are. To me thats kinda shallow (but Im not materialistic in life) and kinda nuts (this is a game). To me bragging about gear on a character is just plain sad.I LOVED EQ! Prior to Kunark the game was just incredible. Kunark was cool as well, but that to me is when gear inflation started happening. Scars of Velious was also a lot of fun, but still more inflation.So I dont think it is raiding in itself, its the time requirements and gear requirements that [Removed for Content] people off. And its not people who raid, but the attitude of people that like to show off - the Elitist types. Not because Im jealous. I ONLY where gear and equipment that I make myself, or quest for myself or with a nonraid group. I like having gear made my by me (my characters). I dont dislike raiders, but people who feel the need to show off. These kinda of hard-core gamers are often (not always) the ones that only group with the 'perfect' group. Holy Trinity (of which I use to be part of). Decked out with specific items. They remind me of the guys (or the parents of kids) that get too into sports. Yeah, a lot of stereotyping and generalizations, but I think this is the reason for the Casual vs Hardcore strife.Mal</blockquote>I am truly sorry if you ever had an experience where someone rejected you because of gear. If this honestly happened those people were extremely misinformed and I would expect that they were not a good representation of the majority of raiders.Also as I read your post a funny thought came to me when you talked about the raid gear being superior to the non-raid gear. If there was no raiding or raid zones would these items even exist? The gear in question all drop from raid zones and if they were taken out of the game that would mean that the loot that dropped in said zones would no longer be on the loot table of any mobs in the game.Going on that premise, I would assume that the reason that this gear exists, or is supposed to exist, is for the progression of raiding and taking on harder encounters. If that was the case then why would there be an issue with this gear dropping from raids for raids?</blockquote>The only problem I have with the "hardcore" raiders was that their compaining was part of why SOe did the tradeskill nerf. The first time I seen any hint of retiering of all items in which tradeskill items were made almost worthless like now was to the complaint from raiders that such and such fabled item from named mob x only had one more stat then crafted legendary along with a nice proc to make it better. A dev said that yes, they realized that the item was too low compared to the crafted and that all equipment would be retiered to correct it. That was when mastercrafted which is equal to good treasured and worse then legendary was created. Then when people posted against the proposed changes the same people complaining would basically flamespray them for trying to keep tradeskilling products good where flamed by the same "raiders" who didn't think crafting should take any skill or thought and they should be able to level the tradeskill side of their character in less then a quarter of the time of an adventurer. The dev's seen things their way so we got what we got for tradeskilling now. Its kind of sad in a way that I don't even see most of those "hardcore raiders" names in the forums anymore or in game after they succeeded in getting the tradeskill side of the game to be easier and requiring less thought then playing tetris. Hmm, still a sore subject with me but then the thought of the lost potential of the tradeskill side to be as interesting as the fighting side was a big loss to the game. A lot of players left then for games with more interesting crafting sides and who TS guilds broke up. Most raiders now are not like those now but every once in a while those with the same elitism pop up again. Of course this is just my opinion on the subject of the raiding "hate". Its not as bad as it used to be IMO because most don't remember the damage done any more. Raiding is a subset of adventuring just like grouping and solo and is treated more like that now then it used to be.More like me do it casually now but thats just due to lack of level cap increases and (for my part) what seems an obvious miscommunication between the EoF set dev and the AA dev since wardens were gives melee CA's but the warden armor sets have absolutely no STR on them. Just Int like we were nuking fury's. lol. Of course that could be too because when the AA's were first designed every warden was going down the cures line until the dev's nerfed it to almost uselessness and we were forced to go to CA's due to lack of any where else usefull to put them. The CA line was not really anything more then curiosity then since EoF just came out and wardens didn't know yet how far Fury's were raised above them on the DPS side of being a druid. </blockquote>That is untrue.Xegonite was made the way it was to slow down item progression. Things are constantly nerfed in this game to slow things down. The developers felt that legendary armor was the norm, trivialized non-legendary crafted armor and that cobalt pushed the limit of what the norm should be. I remember some of your past posts about raiders and I thought that you were absolutely ridiculous. The few random people that you argued with getting credit for a nerf that players had no control over is just silly.

KBern

09-07-2007, 04:50 PM

<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is untrue.Xegonite was made the way it was to slow down item progression. Things are constantly nerfed in this game to slow things down. The developers felt that legendary armor was the norm, trivialized non-legendary crafted armor and that cobalt pushed the limit of what the norm should be. I remember some of your past posts about raiders and I thought that you were absolutely ridiculous. The few random people that you argued with getting credit for a nerf that players had no control over is just silly.</blockquote>I have always found it funny that people think some players had items or gameplay nerfed or changed. Players can bring up concerns and issues to the developers. Other than shedding some light on an issue, they have no power to change anything.The developers then evaluate the concerns of the players and make their own changes if they agree or disagree. Since raiders are "supposedly" such a small minority, it is even more humorous from a SOE business standpoint to make changes to the game based on a few people.Any changes made, good or bad, are because SOE wanted them and felt it was better for their business and the health of the game, not because a few whiny raiders, or soloers, or crafters were spouting off about stuff on the boards.

Catsy

09-07-2007, 05:14 PM

<cite>Wyrmypops wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sotanyavejin@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><cite></cite>One aspect I do object to though, is that raiding is seemingly regarded as better, faster, bigger, harder. It ain't. </blockquote>While "better" is a subjective value judgement that's best left to the individual, the rest of this statement is just plain silly. Raiding is by definition bigger than grouping. It's frequently faster, in the sense that you have to be a lot more on the ball in most named encounters than in 99% of heroic named encounters. And as illustrated with examples above, it is absolutely harder.If you're going to persist with this line of argument, you need to support it. Again, I'm not saying that raiding or raiders are better than groupers in any value-laden sense. But this kind of absurd argument needs to be stomped out simply because it perpetuates the very schisms and misconceptions you seem to dislike.</blockquote>Hey now, the other guy got a goat. Why don't I get anything? A monkey would be useful. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />I suspect you're doing what you acused the other guy of, taking something out of its context. In my context I used those words to suggest raiding is considered more "oooh" and superior. If you'd rather address each word, fair enough. Better, a completely subjective thing. Faster, uh huh, even I've heard of how long some of those fights can take. Bigger, the party and the mobs hit points may be bigger, but the challenge is absolutely not bigger than when one has to rely on oneself and a few others. Harder, is it most definately not absolutely harder than challenging group content taken on by a group. If you're going to persist with that line of argument then you need to, gawd know what, whatever you like. I'm all out of monkeys. If you wanted a monkey you'd be disappointed. I am a monkey-less void. I, could not, give a monkeys. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Look, no offense intended, but--could you do me the courtesy of reading to the end of a sentence before you reply to it?You complain about my use of the word "faster" by bringing up how long many epic encounters take, when that clearly wasn't the intended meaning of the word: the whole sentence I wrote was "It's frequently faster, in the sense that you have to be a lot more on the ball in most named encounters than in 99% of heroic named encounters."As for your counter to "bigger", I can only assume that you haven't raided before, except perhaps in one or two pickup groups. If you don't think it's more challenging to coordinate 23 other monkeys than 5, then in all honesty you're not speaking from experience. The same goes for "harder".

Wyrmypops

09-07-2007, 05:28 PM

<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>At the end of the day all of the bickering and differing opinions mean nothing because people that like to downplay raiding are always defeated by their own premise.Raiding is easy and doesn't take skill. You only need a leader and twenty three monkeys with too much free time that can press buttons.If it's easy and doesn't take skill then do it. What's stopping you? Oh, not enough time. It has been pointed out time and time again that competent players don't need to devote much time into raiding in EQ2 because there isn't all that much to do. Nearly all of what there is to do can be completed fairly quickly.This isn't an acceptable answer for many because people tend to think that they're the best in their class with a guild full of people that are the best in their classes. Like in the real world, many people that lust for what they don't have because they can't or won't get it have a million excuses for why it isn't their fault.If people have the time to get level seventy then they have the time to raid with a competent guild. The time you just spent in Unrest could have been three weeks of FT.Instanced raiding is what EQ2 is all about. If it's so easy then do it. Watch two or three less hours of TV a week. Nobody is stopping you.The answer is simple but many people don't want to hear it. They know it though. Their angst makes it obvious.</blockquote>I'd have to disagree with this. For me and surely some others, there's no envy, because nothing about it seems better or something to "aspire" to. To suggest envy might imply some arrogance. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/47941865eb7bbc2a777305b46cc059a2.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> I couldn't give a flying one what raiders get up to or what they get out of it. The "get up to" malarky isn't something I'd want to get up to. What they get out of it isn't what I'd get out of it. It's a playstyle preference. I, and again surely some others, may or may not perceive it as easy, or as easier than challenging group content. But it does not follow that the reason people don't take up raiding is purely "time". There's myriad reasons why that playstyle is not their preference. To use your line, they might not want to be a monkey. Or, they may prefer a more intimate gaming experience with a few friends rather than a coach load of people they don't know. Or they may prefer to quest. Or they may play a tank. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Instanced raiding is not what EQ2 is all about. Nothing is. EQ2 is many things, to many different people. For what it's worth, on the last raid I attended for an HQ stage, it ran smoothly. A friend of mine was in a top raid guild that was happy for me to tag along. I hit perhaps three combat arts a fight. There were a couple instead of one vocal leader. Most people said nothing the whole time. Some were /afk occasionally. There was no wipe at all. I even got given a couple of Doomrage pieces, nice of them I thought. I got my quest stage completed. The whole run was over faster than I expected, such was their skill and knowledge of what they faced. I thanked them for letting me tag along. I got surprised by an invite to join their guild, to which I politely declined the offer. You see, I have the time, but I do not have the inclination. I find the raiding experience dull, not challenging, lifeless, and not the intimate gaming experience with friends I look for. Honestly, I'd rather harvest for hours and give the stuff to guildees. Though, hehe, there is a certain irksome quality in that raiding bestows the best gear. One raid could net a fabled item or two, whereas even the loooong heroic quests don't offer comparable rewards. That's still not envy, that's a perceived inbalance of risk/time vs reward. In that getting geared up, that's sure easier playing monkey a couple nights a week than running the high end group instances or the long quest series.

Catsy

09-07-2007, 05:32 PM

<cite>Auric@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Ironically, you just described why I feel most raids are less challenging that a non-fabled trio hunting white/yellow conned heroic content in a dungeon. Predictable encounters with proven strategies is not very challenging, imo. Reacting instantly and intelligently to unexpected events is.You can defeat a scripted raid encounter every time -- once you know it and are geared for it -- if everyone just does everything they are supposed to do when they are supposed to do it. Challenging? Sure, just as challenging as being in a marching band. Me? I feel the impromptu nature of Jazz is more challenging.This is why I rarely raid except to complete quests or for the one-time AP XP. I prefer Jazz. </blockquote>Others have picked this bit apart, but to put a fine point on it: everything about predictability and scripting that you just wrote goes double for group encounters. There is not a single heroic encounter in any zone, including Nizara or CMM, that approaches the complexity of, say, Treyloth or Rumbler. And 99% of all solo and group content is nothing more than pull, burn, heal, loot. The challenge in heroic content comes mostly from adds, repops, agro management, and adapting to mistakes or bad luck. There's no real strategy in it.And as for being able to defeat a scripted encounter every time, I must point out that knowing a strategy is not the same as executing a strategy. If, to pick an arbitrary number, each person has a 5% chance of making a mistake that wipes the group, then those chances are magnified with four groups, and further magnified if they have to do something more complex than hold position, heal, and not pull agro. Like being in a marching band? Please. Try taking on Othysis Muravian and having the MT get fingered on the first cycle, or Chel'Drak and having the fighter add taunt your healers off before you can burn him down.Look, I understand that people who don't like to raid don't like to be looked down upon. I'm not trying to tell you that you shouldn't enjoy what you do, or that you must raid in order to be fulfilled in your enjoyment of this game.But you don't have to tear down raiding in order to justify the fact that you enjoy grouping. The fact that you enjoy grouping should be enough for you, regardless of what loot raiders can attain, or which of the two is more challenging. But instead of being content with what you enjoy, you're making completely counter factual claims about the challenge, strategy, and complexity in raiding, as if making raid success sound like a no-brainer and putting the challenge on an equal footing with heroic content is the only way you can avoid an inferiority complex over not raiding. It's unnecessary and sounds really ignorant to people who are have experience in both worlds.

Wyrmypops

09-07-2007, 05:40 PM

<cite>Sotanyavejin@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wyrmypops wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sotanyavejin@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><cite></cite>One aspect I do object to though, is that raiding is seemingly regarded as better, faster, bigger, harder. It ain't. </blockquote>While "better" is a subjective value judgement that's best left to the individual, the rest of this statement is just plain silly. Raiding is by definition bigger than grouping. It's frequently faster, in the sense that you have to be a lot more on the ball in most named encounters than in 99% of heroic named encounters. And as illustrated with examples above, it is absolutely harder.If you're going to persist with this line of argument, you need to support it. Again, I'm not saying that raiding or raiders are better than groupers in any value-laden sense. But this kind of absurd argument needs to be stomped out simply because it perpetuates the very schisms and misconceptions you seem to dislike.</blockquote>Hey now, the other guy got a goat. Why don't I get anything? A monkey would be useful. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />I suspect you're doing what you acused the other guy of, taking something out of its context. In my context I used those words to suggest raiding is considered more "oooh" and superior. If you'd rather address each word, fair enough. Better, a completely subjective thing. Faster, uh huh, even I've heard of how long some of those fights can take. Bigger, the party and the mobs hit points may be bigger, but the challenge is absolutely not bigger than when one has to rely on oneself and a few others. Harder, is it most definately not absolutely harder than challenging group content taken on by a group. If you're going to persist with that line of argument then you need to, gawd know what, whatever you like. I'm all out of monkeys. If you wanted a monkey you'd be disappointed. I am a monkey-less void. I, could not, give a monkeys. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Look, no offense intended, but--could you do me the courtesy of reading to the end of a sentence before you reply to it?You complain about my use of the word "faster" by bringing up how long many epic encounters take, when that clearly wasn't the intended meaning of the word: the whole sentence I wrote was "It's frequently faster, in the sense that you have to be a lot more on the ball in most named encounters than in 99% of heroic named encounters."As for your counter to "bigger", I can only assume that you haven't raided before, except perhaps in one or two pickup groups. If you don't think it's more challenging to coordinate 23 other monkeys than 5, then in all honesty you're not speaking from experience. The same goes for "harder".</blockquote>No offence taken. Or meant either of course. I did read it all. Me's gud at readin wordz an' stuff. It's just you ran with meanings of the bigger, faster, better, harder words individually whereas I used them to suggest a holistic feeling. It would have worked better verbally. I'm unsure about faster. I've found the brown stuff can hit the ventilator just as fast in a group dungeon as a raid instance, and no suitably speedy response will result in a wipe in either case. Although in a group each parts has to pull its weight that bit more. Stands to reason really. If there's what, 4-5 priests healing a raid, then if one isn't pulling their weight then that's merely a 20% drop in healing effectiveness. If the one healer in a group ain't doing all they could, then the % of effectiveness lost is significantly more eh. Hehe, I'm so glad it wasn't me that called non-leader raiders monkeys.

Armawk

09-07-2007, 05:50 PM

<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Instanced raiding is what EQ2 is all about. </blockquote>A dose of reality is needed here.. only Sony know what percentage of player time is spent in instance raids, but Ill be damned if its even close to being a demonstrable majority. Its not even clear that the majority of players raid at all, let alone that enough of those who do focus their gameplay on it enough for it to be "what eq2 is all about".Its an aspect, a popular one, and one that I am perfectly happy for the devs to cater for extensively. Clearly a LOT of players enjoy it, and the devs put a LOT of time into making such zones. This is a good thing. However they put way way too much work into non raid content for me to accept any claim that those other aspects only exists as precursors to instance raiding.

Vatec

09-07-2007, 10:26 PM

First, I'll preface by saying I haven't read most of the thread. Someone may have already said everything I'm going to say and three other people have probably already ripped that same post to pieces.Raid "hate" exists primarily for three reasons:1. Players perceive, rightly or wrongly, that a lot of dev effort goes into planning and implementing raid instances. To those who don't raid, all that effort is "wasted effort" that could be used implementing something for =them.=2. Players who don't raid don't get the "phat lewt" and don't get to see the "kewl zones."3. Many raiders give off a "holier than thou" attitude. Don't believe me? Read recruiting posts for hardcore raiding guilds. They invariably say something like "we only want the best," "must have 100 AAs and at least 75% Mastered," or "if you're not from one of the classes we're currently recruiting, please leave your name and number and we'll call you if an opening comes up." While these may be =intended= in the spirit of "fostering excellence" and "efficiency," they don't exactly give off warm and friendly vibes to most people.The issues are then exacerbated by those few "hardcore raiders" who proceed to put others down for playing the "wrong way." The end results are not pretty.As for me, I've found raids to be a bit too mechanical. The challenge is in discovering a strategy and then executing that strategy over and over. There's not much room for creativity or "fun." The "fun" is in executing properly and getting the loot.Group content is almost ridiculously easy because most people overengineer their groups. They refuse to move unless they've got 6 people, they'll sit around waiting for a healer, they'll insist on a "plate tank" instead of a brawler or one of the light tank scout classes. Furthermore, they'll make sure that at least a few group members are ten levels higher than the content and try very hard to get a mentored down guildy to heal or tank. The end result is that an area that was designed for 3-6 level 40 people will get totally pwned by 6 level 48s. When approached "as designed" these areas can be quite challenging. It's a different sort of challenge. Instead of trying over and over until the right strategy is executed the right way, the challenge of these areas comes from the unpredictability. You might get adds, you might get repops, etc. These zones reward quick thinking and class knowledge, but =only= when you're in a "suboptimal" group.Finally, soloing varies wildly. For some classes soloing in general is a challenge. For others, only soloing heroics counts. For yet others, it's all about how quickly they can level or how efficient they are at levelling or how many quests they can complete. For the most part, with the majority of my characters, I find soloing to be more challenging than grouping but less annoying/tedious than raiding. I'm sure others see things differently ;^)

TaleraRis

09-08-2007, 01:56 AM

<cite>Lionidas wrote:</cite><cite></cite><blockquote>Going on that premise, I would assume that the reason that this gear exists, or is supposed to exist, is for the progression of raiding and taking on harder encounters. If that was the case then why would there be an issue with this gear dropping from raids for raids?</blockquote>If the gear affected only raiding content, there wouldn't be. But how often have you heard folks say X or Y is too easy (take soloing) from someone who's main play style isn't what the X or Y content would normally be apart of? I am challenged as a soloer using crafted, solo dropped or solo quested gear in ways that someone using superior gear isn't. Yet because it's not a challenge to those who trivialize it with far superior gear, then it's labeled simplistic and solo encounters are left to be mindless and lacking in creativity or challenge. Or they give too good of a reward for the challenge in the eyes of those who trivialize it, so they are change to give virtually useless rewards. I rarely use anything I receive on a quest, because I likely have already gotten another drop that was far superior, usually in a previous tier zone. If there were a way to prevent raid gear from affecting "lesser" play styles' content in a negative manner, then the issue of what drops from raids would become a non-issue for many non-raiders. Sure, there will still be those who want raid-quality gear but don't want to raid, but far too often many who prefer not to raid get painted with that brush with no basis. We, like anyone else, want fun and challenge in our content. And we simply do not find that fun and challenge in raiding.

Lodrelhai

09-08-2007, 02:44 AM

<cite>Sotanyavejin@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Auric@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Ironically, you just described why I feel most raids are less challenging that a non-fabled trio hunting white/yellow conned heroic content in a dungeon. Predictable encounters with proven strategies is not very challenging, imo. Reacting instantly and intelligently to unexpected events is.You can defeat a scripted raid encounter every time -- once you know it and are geared for it -- if everyone just does everything they are supposed to do when they are supposed to do it. Challenging? Sure, just as challenging as being in a marching band. Me? I feel the impromptu nature of Jazz is more challenging.This is why I rarely raid except to complete quests or for the one-time AP XP. I prefer Jazz. </blockquote>And as for being able to defeat a scripted encounter every time, I must point out that knowing a strategy is not the same as executing a strategy. If, to pick an arbitrary number, each person has a 5% chance of making a mistake that wipes the group, then those chances are magnified with four groups, and further magnified if they have to do something more complex than hold position, heal, and not pull agro. Like being in a marching band? Please. Try taking on Othysis Muravian and having the MT get fingered on the first cycle, or Chel'Drak and having the fighter add taunt your healers off before you can burn him down.</blockquote>Okay, having actually been in a marching band, and one that took second place statewide, I have to respond to this. Because being in a marching band is challenging. Sometimes even when everyone follows the pattern, you still crash and burn. Sometimes there can be a major screw-up in effect, and if everyone keeps their heads you come out golden. Actually, I think it fits pretty well for an analogy of what happens in raiding, based on my (very limited) experience.Our first competition everyone was more-or-less in place, we had no trips or screw ups, but our lines were sloppy and we came dead last. Liken that to my first FTH raid, where the leader put together a raid based on what he'd read were good class mixes and strong strategies. But only maybe 2 people had actually done the zone, neither of them were the raid leader, and we couldn't get past the first named. Both cases, we were sloppy. While everyone supposedly knew what they were doing, no one really understood it and the leader couldn't explain it since he didn't actually know it either. End results - a very ugly performance.At city finals, when everyone had some experience under their belts, we did our entire show 20 feet too far forward and came in first place. Even though we were in the wrong place, we were all in the wrong place together with sharp formations and perfect timing, so no one but our drum major knew we were off. Sounds rather like some of the raiding guild members here who've mentioned doing content in a couple hours max, doesn't it?I've seen whole formations ruined because one guy marching backwards misspaced his steps and ended up tripping over someone else. State finals one of our clarinetists fainted in formation because he locked his knees (thank god this was when we were waiting for results, not during or before the performance!). Anyone else had the MT LD on the pull, or someone hit a lag spike at just the wrong moment?So yeah, when a raid guild has the pattern down and knows what they're doing, they make it look easy. But they learned it by working on it, practicing, researching, trying things. Why do you think the idea of a training arena, where people could test strategies against various nameds, was such a hot suggestion in the guild hall discussion? And even when the raid has a perfect class mix with optimized stats, things can, will, and do go wrong. LD, lag spikes, sudden and urgent biological needs that no one wants more details on, spouse goes into labor... things happen. Whether you're addicted to hardcore raiding, only raid casually, or abhor it vehemently, always remember - lots of stuff looks easy when you're watching someone else do it.edit: correction of terminology

TaleraRis

09-08-2007, 02:59 AM

Amen! Four years of high school as a second and then first chair trumpet player, my junior year as drum major. Marching band is far from easy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Lasai

09-08-2007, 03:21 AM

<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>At the end of the day all of the bickering and differing opinions mean nothing because people that like to downplay raiding are always defeated by their own premise.Raiding is easy and doesn't take skill. You only need a leader and twenty three monkeys with too much free time that can press buttons.If it's easy and doesn't take skill then do it. What's stopping you? Oh, not enough time. It has been pointed out time and time again that competent players don't need to devote much time into raiding in EQ2 because there isn't all that much to do. Nearly all of what there is to do can be completed fairly quickly.This isn't an acceptable answer for many because people tend to think that they're the best in their class with a guild full of people that are the best in their classes. Like in the real world, many people that lust for what they don't have because they can't or won't get it have a million excuses for why it isn't their fault.If people have the time to get level seventy then they have the time to raid with a competent guild. The time you just spent in Unrest could have been three weeks of FT.Instanced raiding is what EQ2 is all about. If it's so easy then do it. Watch two or three less hours of TV a week. Nobody is stopping you.The answer is simple but many people don't want to hear it. They know it though. Their angst makes it obvious.</blockquote>Ok lets take the statement "Instanced raiding is what EQ2 is all about". That is an opinion. It is far from a fact, and making judgement based upon your myopic view leads to problems. You cannot concieve a view that actually finds raiding unattractive.. so you attach your own conclusions as to why.My premise is, I prefer to solo. Period. I don't have envy, Angst, I am certainly not defeated by my own "premise". In my little fantasy world online I like to be an Assassin.. a solo killer. While it works for some, for me the "shadowy assassin" as part of a 24 man invasion force just doesnt work.I'm not "Lusting" for anything a raider owns or does. I could care less. If I cared about pixellated crap I would go back to SWG, 8 houses full of garbage and 180million creds. I play for fun, not junk.In fact, SWG taught me a lot about caring for pixellated junk. SWG taught me that the only thing I own in game is time. The equipment belongs to SOE, to change, remove, nerf, or anything else they want, at any time they want. Best not to fixate on other peoples property, we just rent it. I find challenge in solo play, playing a class considered to be very bad at it, Assassin. I find my rewards to be intrinsic, and my goal is to do things I should not as a solo assassin. I'm not going to change my AAs nor my build to fit into the cog-in-a-machine build of the DPS assassin leashed to a tank, either. I also don't feel the need to measure my ego with a parser, for me, If I am alive, and the mob is dead, I won. I don't want or need some fixated individual lecturing me on my zonewide.I have a lot of reasons I don't care to raid.. and none of them are what you attribute. It is simply my choice, not a judgement. I don't judge your motivation to raid, don't judge my motivation not to.I only care about raid issues when they intrude (or I percieve they intrude) upon my gameplay. Whether that is nerfing my SK, or listening to a lot of Raid assassins downplaying the need for ranged CAs on spell consolodation.. then I care. Its a big game, and all styles of gameplay are valid. I don't want my char changed to fit in some odd idea of "Raid Utility for The People" that does me not one ounce of good playing my game.

Wyrmypops

09-08-2007, 08:53 AM

By the way Lionidas, thank you for one of the most interesting threads in recent memory. It's got me and evidently many others to think about the whole issue, their and others places in it, and the ramifications of it all. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />I enjoy re-examing my stance on things occasionally. Especially amongst good, thoughtful and intelligent company such as is found here. Over the years I've come to consider a person takes a stance on an issue early on, and then whatever they encounter is percieved from the stance they've taken, only recognising the aspects that bolster their stance, or twisting what doesn't. A human thing I reckon. It's easy to see in forums especially, without the body language and verbal inflection to assist communication. Then again, there's also the value of closed/open minds, with a closed mind on an issue regarded negatively, where it need not be. A mind closed on an issue could have simply reached a point where it's made a decision, and like court cases isn't to be changed unless new evidence can be brought to bear. Related. methinks, to the difference between knowing and thinking something, that the former is merely stronger conviction. There's also the difference between knowing and feeling something, that the former is intellectually understood while the later is a more of the gut and emotional. My friends tend to enjoy giving me a subject they know I'm closed to - just to see me froth and rant like a rabid dog. It's often done to amuse them though, apathy on issues I've closed to me are more common than being genuinely worked up about them. Star Trek, D&D, Jack Daniels, religion, blondes, Tolkien, and raiding, all have been used for that wind-him-up-and-watch-him-go amusment, but most are just not something that do anything for me. I trust it's evident that despite saying so raiders and raiding are not targets of venomous attacks. I reckon most of my EQ2 friends raid, and just know it ain't something I enjoy, but also know that if they bait me I'll bite, if only to dutifully provide them a chuckle. Hehe, think I went off on a couple of tangents there. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Evidently, I have no problem with raiders, but have got a point where my mind is closed on it. I've recognised it's not a playstyle that does anything for me, so end of story, I'm apathetic about what others enjoy. I do, however, have a problem with the perception that it is a superior playstyle. But that's not a hate on raiders which would be as useless and harmful a sweeping generalisation as any other discrimination, theres really few raiders that generate that feeling and any confrontation should be directed at the individual rather than a perceived culture they belong to. That perceived superior playstyle schtick does bother me and that the misconception is reinforced by the games' design, in that a raid can yield a better reward than a long heroic quest line - something to address with SOE though, not misdirect negative feelings towards those that benefit from it. I can't help but feel the stance MMORPG companies have in regards to raiding is closed also. That they consider that it is superior, and somehow more serious. There's an low ratio of quests involving epic only content. Aside from the risk/time vs reward equation being out of whack, poorly designed quests seem the realm of other content/playstyles - though I wouldn't have as clear a take on that as other, only raiding when I have to for quests. Is my memory at fault for recalling mention of epic rewards that'd only work in the epic zones? Reading that a while ago made me sit up, and yep, smile. A means to address the trivialising of content, that a fully fabled person or group could take on content for the mastercrafted and legendary crowd. I'd embrace more of that thinking, showing as it does a certain bolstering appreciation for the other playstyles, and retain its challenge.

erin

09-08-2007, 10:43 AM

To me, any "raid hate" I have is all about the attitude.Firstly, the vocal minority of hardcore raiders have an attitude of "raiding is the only reason to play". In other words, they don't believe any other playstyle has validity, and anyone who doesn't raid is [Removed for Content]. Its really annoying to be regularly told (in channels) that a) your playstyle isn't valid and b) your playstyle means that you are not "as good as" raiders. Is this a general raider outlook? Probably not, I truly believe that the most hardcore raiders (the ones at the forefront of raiding, the ones actually doing encounters first) are not like this. They usually aren't loud and obnoxious. But there is that vocal minority that gives other raiders a black eye (IMHO of course).The second is gear. Its not that I'm envious of raider gear, I'm not. I'm fine with the gear I have, because its ok for my playstyle. However, that being said, the gear leads to attitude again. When you hear a raider in all fabled gear telling you that you are a loser or [Removed for Content] or a noob because you can't do zone x, y or z solo, its because they are doing that zone in fabled raid gear and I'm doing it in mastercrafted and a few pieces of legendary. Its not because they are that much better a player than me (in most cases). And no, this hasn't happened to me often, I'm just saying - read your chat channels sometime and see how often someone says something like "omgz! I solo that zone all the time, what do you need a group for?" then go check out their gear. So again, all about the attitude, and again, a small vocal minority giving the rest a bad name.I have nothing against raiders or raiding, heck I'm even raiding once a week myself right now! But I don't want to be belittled for the playstyle I have chosen. Personally, I have a thicker skin than that and it usually doesn't really bother me, but I've seen people get very upset over this and it certainly doesn't make the raider community look good. I don't expect them to be warm and fuzzy, but I would expect them to realize that their gear and spells give them opportunities that maybe others don't have (yes, by their own choice).I doubt I got my point across and will no doubt get picked apart word for word, but if you try and take the whole concept as its meant, maybe you'll see where I'm going.

liveja

09-08-2007, 01:09 PM

<cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote>When you hear a raider in all fabled gear telling you that you are a loser or [Removed for Content] or a noob because you can't do zone x, y or z solo</blockquote>Such two-legged egos are best ignored.

Talz

09-08-2007, 01:41 PM

"Instanced raiding is what EQ2 is all about."I have no problem when people don't agree with me. What I do have a problem with is when people twist what I say and lower the bar so much that a hole needs to be dug.My entire post was in the context of raiding and therefore so is that statement. In retrospect there apparently needed to be "raiding" inserted after "EQ2". I felt it would have been redundant."Instanced raiding is what EQ2 raiding is all about."I made it more clear for those that need more redundancy in their lives.As for the people that have a problem with the words I used to describe some players, stop twisting things. I made one real world comparison about a certain type of person that's a valid one. Nowhere did I use a broad brush and include everyone in that statement.As I said above, I have no problem with people not agreeing with me. However, if you plan to latch onto a specific sentence or specific words anger you then don't come back with gibberish in a "Gotcha!" manner. I made specific statements about specific people in a specific subject. If clarification is needed then ask for it. Either comment fairly on what I say or don't. It isn't me that looks foolish when you don't.

Catsy

09-08-2007, 02:54 PM

<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>"Instanced raiding is what EQ2 is all about."I have no problem when people don't agree with me. What I do have a problem with is when people twist what I say and lower the bar so much that a hole needs to be dug.</blockquote>It wasn't necessary to twist that sentence--whether standing on its own or in the full context of the post, it does not mean what you claim you meant. People may not have taken from it what you intended, but that's your fault for choosing your words poorly, not their fault for reading the plain meaning of those words.Look over this thread. You won't find many more passionate advocates for raiding as a play style than me, and /I/ took you to be saying that /EQ2/ is all about raiding, which is an indefensible statement. Choose your words more carefully next time instead of trying the shift the blame for your miscommunication onto the people who rightly took offense.

Armawk

09-08-2007, 03:33 PM

<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>"Instanced raiding is what EQ2 is all about.""Instanced raiding is what EQ2 raiding is all about."I made it more clear for those that need more redundancy in their lives.Either comment fairly on what I say or don't. It isn't me that looks foolish when you don't.</blockquote>You mean for those who read actual sentences, instead of your mind directly. There is ZERO ambiguity in your original post, you made a posting error. front up about it! You dont look foolish if you admit to an error.Anyway, no harm really, you made a MISTAKE. Thanks for the sideways correction and non-apology.Your new comment is non controversial and in fact in line with Sony's new policy for the next addon.

Talz

09-08-2007, 05:12 PM

It's perfectly acceptable guys. If we were discussing this is in person emphasis would have been put on instanced. All you see here are words. It doesn't make it wrong. People misunderstood it and I acknowledged that. A convenient fact that's surprisingly absent in your scoldings.I don't think that you're a bad guy Shaun but on here people get what they give as we discussed in another thread. I have every right to defend a statement with as little tact that was shown to me. You believing that I owe an apology for not being cordial when taken out of context and having it used as a platform for a rant that attributes other untruths to me is absurd. I believe that you should take some of your own advice here.Sotan, you're the last person in this thread that should be taking the high ground on anything. I had a serious Guk character at one time and the complaints that I heard about you from your own leadership alone tells me all I need to know about your character. Save me the lecture. Please. Feel free to PM me if this is a road you really want to go down.

Catsy

09-08-2007, 06:01 PM

<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sotan, you're the last person in this thread that should be taking the high ground on anything. I had a serious Guk character at one time and the complaints that I heard about you from your own leadership alone tells me all I need to know about your character. Save me the lecture. Please. Feel free to PM me if this is a road you really want to go down.</blockquote>If anyone has complaints about me that they can't nut up and raise with me directly, they're not worth taking seriously. People who make unsourced and vague allusions to the reputations of others in order to deflect attention from their own mistakes even less so. I've certainly got no worries on the matter. Frankly, even if you had any ad hominem point to raise about my personal character, it would 1) be off-topic in this thread, and 2) take nothing away from the criticisms of your choice of words.You chose your words poorly, and people responded to their plain meaning. Own up to it instead of digging in your heels and maintaining that it's everyone else's fault for not divining what you meant. If you elide one or more words that change the meaning of your sentence, it's your own doing. If you think that placing accent on a given word changes the meaning in an important way, we have these things called italics, and various plain-text substitutes, that do the job.The fact is that you made an indefensible claim. Whether or not it's what you meant was immaterial. The tenor of the responses to you were harsh because the plain meaning of what you wrote was practically a living stereotype of the arrogant attitude of raiders that so many in the thread complain about. Had your first response to someone been an apology for the misunderstanding and a clarification instead of a claim that nobody else could read, this would have gone differently and we wouldn't be having this conversation.The exchanges with you aside, this has been a great thread. If you're unable to take responsibility for your own words, I suggest you drop it lest the thread get locked.

Armawk

09-08-2007, 08:58 PM

<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't think that you're a bad guy Shaun but on here people get what they give as we discussed in another thread. I have every right to defend a statement with as little tact that was shown to me. You believing that I owe an apology for not being cordial when taken out of context and having it used as a platform for a rant that attributes other untruths to me is absurd. I believe that you should take some of your own advice here.</blockquote>No just that I would have automatically said "ah sorry guys, I meant 'instances are what eq2 raiding is all about'" which would have neatly and simply dealt with it. But yes, as you caused the misunderstanding then you should be cordial even in the face of a vitriolic response. People were vitriolic to a guy who said "instance raids are what eq is all about" not one who said what you intended to say, so being defensive about it makes no sense.Not sure who attributed "untruths" to you, certainly not me.

Talz

09-08-2007, 09:20 PM

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't think that you're a bad guy Shaun but on here people get what they give as we discussed in another thread. I have every right to defend a statement with as little tact that was shown to me. You believing that I owe an apology for not being cordial when taken out of context and having it used as a platform for a rant that attributes other untruths to me is absurd. I believe that you should take some of your own advice here.</blockquote>No just that I would have automatically said "ah sorry guys, I meant 'instances are what eq2 raiding is all about'" which would have neatly and simply dealt with it. But yes, as you caused the misunderstanding then you should be cordial even in the face of a vitriolic response. People were vitriolic to a guy who said "instance raids are what eq is all about" not one who said what you intended to say, so being defensive about it makes no sense.Not sure who attributed "untruths" to you, certainly not me. </blockquote>Then you're just going to have to disagree with me because I said all that I am going to say on the issue. I am sure that we will both live happily ever after.As for conceited as always Sotan, we can finish this discussion in the game and clear up these vagueness issues. Just put up an /afk if you're botting more writ titles so I don't waste my time.

Catsy

09-08-2007, 09:56 PM

<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>As for conceited as always Sotan, we can finish this discussion in the game and clear up these vagueness issues. Just put up an /afk if you're botting more writ titles so I don't waste my time.</blockquote>Ah. Now I /know/ you've got me confused with someone else; I haven't done a writ in ages, and I've never botted. Whatever--that's your issue to sort out, not mine.

erin

09-08-2007, 10:09 PM

<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't think that you're a bad guy Shaun but on here people get what they give as we discussed in another thread. I have every right to defend a statement with as little tact that was shown to me. You believing that I owe an apology for not being cordial when taken out of context and having it used as a platform for a rant that attributes other untruths to me is absurd. I believe that you should take some of your own advice here.</blockquote>No just that I would have automatically said "ah sorry guys, I meant 'instances are what eq2 raiding is all about'" which would have neatly and simply dealt with it. But yes, as you caused the misunderstanding then you should be cordial even in the face of a vitriolic response. People were vitriolic to a guy who said "instance raids are what eq is all about" not one who said what you intended to say, so being defensive about it makes no sense.Not sure who attributed "untruths" to you, certainly not me. </blockquote>Then you're just going to have to disagree with me because I said all that I am going to say on the issue. I am sure that we will both live happily ever after.As for conceited as always Sotan, we can finish this discussion in the game and clear up these vagueness issues. Just put up an /afk if you're botting more writ titles so I don't waste my time.</blockquote>All you had to do was "man up" and admit a mistake. Instead you've managed to totally derail this thread to get attention to yourself. Congratulations. Is it ok if we get back to an interesting discussion now?

Kendricke

09-09-2007, 01:50 AM

<cite>Sotanyavejin@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>The tenor of the responses to you were harsh because the plain meaning of what you wrote was practically a living stereotype of the arrogant attitude of raiders that so many in the thread complain about. </blockquote>In the same post you complain about ad hominems being irrelevant to the points being raised, you turn around and defend ad hominems so long as they are justifiable in your perception. Either ad hominems are acceptable or they are not. You can't exactly decry the tactic while simultaneously defending it.Personally, I'm not defending either side on it. It's all irrelevant to the subject at hand, and only shows the pettiness parties on both sides of the argument are capable of.

liveja

09-09-2007, 11:16 AM

<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>My entire post was in the context of raiding and therefore so is that statement. In retrospect there apparently needed to be "raiding" inserted after "EQ2". I felt it would have been redundant.</blockquote>On the Internet -- especially on message boards devoted to MMO playing -- redundancy is the shield that protects you from the slings of your opponents <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Catsy

09-09-2007, 01:11 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sotanyavejin@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>The tenor of the responses to you were harsh because the plain meaning of what you wrote was practically a living stereotype of the arrogant attitude of raiders that so many in the thread complain about. </blockquote>In the same post you complain about ad hominems being irrelevant to the points being raised, you turn around and defend ad hominems so long as they are justifiable in your perception. Either ad hominems are acceptable or they are not. You can't exactly decry the tactic while simultaneously defending it.</blockquote>I don't accept your premise. In the first place I don't think the responses to him were ad hominem, and I'm not sure you understand what it means. The term doesn't refer to any kind of meanness or attack in general, it refers to the practice of trying to discredit someone's argument with a personal attack on their character. That's precisely what he did. That's not what his detractors did. And even if I assume arguendo that they are, I wasn't defending them--I was explaining their providence, because he didn't seem to get why people were being harsh to him or understand his responsibility for writing something inflammatory. But I can see where you'd get that impression; it's easy to mistake criticism of one side for defense of the other.Nevertheless, if you can explain to me how being sharp with someone in relevant criticism of something they wrote is equivalent to trying to libel them on a public forum with false insinuations about a nonexistent reputation, I'd be happy to accept your accusation of hypocrisy. Until then you're comparing apples and avocados.

Chanaluss

09-09-2007, 03:12 PM

be advised i woke up like 20 minutes ago so i might not be as eloquent as i meant to beive lived on both ends of the spectrum in regards to gameplay. i play both EQlive and EQ2. on EQlive, i am a member of one of the top guilds on Povar, but fortunately one of the very few "family raiding" guilds. i understand thats almost an oxymoron, but its the case. there are people there for the casual "family" atmosphere, just as there are hardcore raiders there. we've become a bit more hardcore lately, but if it werent for the original design of the guild, id have been booted long ago since i dont raid as much as i used to. but i digress.Ive dealt with both extremes in the casual V raider discussions. ive met many raiders who think of the nonraiders as scum, just as ive met nonraiders demanding ridiculous things like 1 groupable BiC augs. these arent the majority. if they were, i sure as heck wouldnt play MMOs anymore.My highest character in EQ2 is level 38, ive played EQ2 for a year, just about. i worry about hitting level 70/70 with 100 AAs, because i wonder whats left for me once i get there. im a soloer, because i mostly quest and do lore research. as a result, i dont connect well with most groups, in either game. i also dont know if im willing to raid here, partially because my PC is old and dying, and my previous experience with raid guilds. I still dont know if i can dedicate that much time to it anymore. i used to be able to do 8, 9, 10 hour raids in a night to get that one mob killed, but i dont think i have the patience to do it anymore. im not going to say that any side is wrong. you play to have fun, thats all you need to say. to hell with anyone who says you arent good enough cause you dont raid, or that you ruin everyone's enjoyment of the game because you are a raider. play how you deem that you want to play, just dont try to dictate your playstyle as the only way to play. /nod