Troub Self Buff Proc Change - DESTROYED TROUBADOUR IN PVP & PVE

[Acolos]

UPDATED --- Theory was correct SONG BARRIER PROCS WHEN TARGET IS MEZZEDSO -- IF I AM DOTTED , I MEZ SOMEONE -- thers a 20% chance of me breaking mez... this mak es mez useless unless i mez them firstI'm guesssnig this is the same in pveplease fix

[Jacien]

Good catch.I'm hoping the damage shield will be using the AE rules of effect. When you mez someone they're excluded from taking AE damage unless specifically targeted by an AE spell or ability.This will rule out your mez being broken by the damage shield proc.

[Acolos]

i'm really worried about this <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />if it is broke.. i will take a break til its fixed thats for sure

[Acolos]

UPDATED - RE - READ ORIGINAL POST

[Jacien]

Well, that certainly sucks. I hope you /bugged it and even did a /feedback. Unfortunately, the developers are often a bit too busy to come here and read this forum for <u>much</u> needed input. The only way this will be fixed is if they get a /bug report about it from multiple people.At least we know it works though. I've been wondering because out of the handful of fights yesterday, after the patch, I didn't get any DoTs on me to where I'd see if DoTs were getting a proc chance. It's a good change just poorly implemented, in typical SOE style.

[Novusod]

This is probably the it is supposed to work. Solo'ing is hardly broken, you can always use charm or cure the dot with a potion.

[Hikkymouse]

I'm killed just now by Song Barrier <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div><div><div>I got DoT and cast Mez. tried cancel Self buff while casting mez.. but too late.<div><div><div>Song Barrier hit mob and hes awaken.</div><div></div><div>Most of DoTs can be cure.. but why do I need to use potion every time to save myself from stupid self buff?</div></div></div></div></div></div>

[Guy De Alsace]

Think Sony made a whoopsie with this change or intentional? As it stands, your own self buff now makes what remains of our mezzing capability pointless. I'm inclined to think its a mistake (hopes).

[Asif]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is probably the it is supposed to work. Solo'ing is hardly broken, you can always use charm or cure the dot with a potion. </blockquote><p>Well i do agree with you that solo'ing is hardly broken,but having to use potions all the time to cure dot's  that just not right.</p><p>But i dont pvp so what the hell do i know.</p>

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>Asif wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is probably the it is supposed to work. Solo'ing is hardly broken, you can always use charm or cure the dot with a potion. </blockquote><p>Well i do agree with you that solo'ing is hardly broken,but having to use potions all the time to cure dot's  that just not right.</p></blockquote>You can also just click the buff off while you are mezzing things that have dots on you.  Probably does suck for PvP though if you now have to take off your buff anytime a player uses a dot on you.  PvE I don't think it can be that frequent of an issue.  It's not much different from chanters having to worry about their procs breaking mez when they cast it. 

[Prrasha]

Procs on a spell all take effect before the spell; neither a troub nor a chanter needs to worry about procs on a mez breaking that mez. Unless you're talking about refreshing a mez, then a proc on a resisted follow-up mez will break the existing mez.

[Acolos]

<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote>Procs on a spell all take effect before the spell; neither a troub nor a chanter needs to worry about procs on a mez breaking that mez. Unless you're talking about refreshing a mez, then a proc on a resisted follow-up mez will break the existing mez.</blockquote>read againi am dottedi mez targetdot procs self buff dmg shield and breaks mezalso, debuffing a mezzed mob causes procs too, but always has

[Jacien]

Doesn't our mez (and all mezes) specifically state the mez'd target is ignored with AoE spells/abilities unless specifically targeted?While soloing, you have only one single target. So, this doesn't apply.But in PvP, with a group on group situation, if a defiler dots me and I mez it to keep it out of combat and healing it's group, I don't want it's dot to proc my damage shield then break my mez.That completely sucks. And I hope Sony can fix it.Otherwise, it's true, there are many troubs who just lost their roll in groups.

[Acolos]

whats it got to do with aoes?in solo pve.. e.g. i goto ToS.. i fight any of the names solo (not epics)... drelakor dots as does scaled protecter.. i get dotted, i mez the mob as it can hit for about 35% of my hp.. my self buff procs and breaks the mez.. nothing to do with aoes i thoughtalso.. in group pve the samebut most importantly for me, as i play on a pvp server, is that i will die if i am dotted and i mez them.. everytime.. the only thing i can do is respec for total dps and not use mez, which is a joke, my lvl 50/70 spell is no more.. not only were troubs already broken in many ways (check my bard  fix thread which i started with another account, r eptillianboy), but now we are completely useless..  i may aswell betray to a dirge

[Jacien]

You may have missed my first post. The one where I said I hoped the damage shield worked similar to an AE.

[Guy De Alsace]

<cite>Pedigru@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>While soloing, you have only one single target. So, this doesn't apply.</p></blockquote><p>Did I misread your post at this point? I take on groups of mobs all the time when I'm soloing. I usually mezz one and fight the other or if three, mezz one, charm the second and fight the third.</p><p>I think the overall thing is that your own self buff shouldnt be a liability instead of an asset. </p><p>I was suprised when I got Infusion for my Fury for instance and it continually got me killed because it doesnt say in the spell that it will hit ANY target in range no matter what it is - aggro or non-aggro. A buff that is a liability again.</p>

[Chefren]

There is one very obvious fix to the problems surrounding our self buff:<ol><li>Remove the damage shield from the Bard self buffs.</li><li>Remove the concentration point requirement from them as well.</li><li>Profit!</li></ol>For some reason the devs seem unwilling to go down this path though.

[Jacien]

<cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pedigru@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>While soloing, you have only one single target. So, this doesn't apply.</p></blockquote><p>Did I misread your post at this point? I take on groups of mobs all the time when I'm soloing. I usually mezz one and fight the other or if three, mezz one, charm the second and fight the third.</p><p>I think the overall thing is that your own self buff shouldnt be a liability instead of an asset. </p><p>I was suprised when I got Infusion for my Fury for instance and it continually got me killed because it doesnt say in the spell that it will hit ANY target in range no matter what it is - aggro or non-aggro. A buff that is a liability again.</p></blockquote>I didn't get my point across very well, sorry about that.All I am trying to say is the damage shield proc should work on the same mechanic as an AoE spell. If the mez'd target is not being targeted by the bard, the shield proc should not cause the mez'd target damage.This mechanic is already in place, the code is readily available to Sony developers.

[Acolos]

nah thats not a good enoug fix tho.. because i might mez a mob or  a person while i am dotted, then i want to start debuffing, or start curing myself.. sods low, it will proc on the first tick of the dot after they are mezzed.they just really need to make it so mez can't be broken by dmg procs at all imo... e.g. if i have aria of acclamation on, and i start debuffing a mezzed mob, that shouldn't break mez either imo.. and proc items shouldn't proc either... then i will be able to use arias in pvp <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />but.. with this current state of the self buff, my toon is on the shelf tbh. except for raids <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Novusod]

I do think there is some type of bug with what is going on here. Last night I was solo'ing a single ^ mob when I get an add which is another single ^ mob. Normally no problem. I can mez the add and go back to the first mob. The mez broke two seconds later on a proc caused by the first mob I was fighting. It is one thing to have to deal with one mob breaking mez early and quite another when a separate encounter can break an out of encounter mez.

[chily]

<cite>Acoloss4 wrote:</cite><blockquote>nah thats not a good enoug fix tho.. because i might mez a mob or  a person while i am dotted, then i want to start debuffing, or start curing myself.. sods low, it will proc on the first tick of the dot after they are mezzed.they just really need to make it so mez can't be broken by dmg procs at all imo... e.g. if i have aria of acclamation on, and i start debuffing a mezzed mob, that shouldn't break mez either imo.. and proc items shouldn't proc either... then i will be able to use arias in pvp <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />but.. with this current state of the self buff, my toon is on the shelf tbh. except for raids <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>If a proc triggers while ou debuff before you mezz again it allways breaked mezz. That's one of the moments when Enchanters don't like pom <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />When i solo with my coercer i take my proc gear of and get some subjestion gear on for better mezzing and no procs that can break my mezz.</p><p>I don't see any bug there for ya, sry.</p>

[Acolos]

thats not the bug.. read again.. the bug is to do with a dmg shield on the self buffwhat i added extra was something i believe they should take into consideration alsoread before u type

[chily]

<cite>Acoloss4 wrote:</cite><blockquote>read before u type </blockquote>been there done that, but only answered to 1 point of you question <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Jacien]

Either way this is a huge problem. Bard self buff procing on DoTs to break mez...sucks.I don't want to go back to the way it was before though. Procing on DoTs is a huge thing for us. It helps make us a bit more viable on PvP servers.

[Mildavyn]

<cite>Pedigru@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't want to go back to the way it was before though. Procing on DoTs is a huge thing for us. It helps make us a bit more viable on PvP servers.</blockquote><p>No, no it doesnt. Removing the root from Precision made us a bit more viable. This change to our self buff just removed it from my spell line-up for PvP and its still not good enough to justify spending a conc slot on it for PvE content.</p><p>Nice try Sony. C for effort, F for effect. Put it back how it was and try again.</p>

[Jacien]

<cite>Ashk@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pedigru@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't want to go back to the way it was before though. Procing on DoTs is a huge thing for us. It helps make us a bit more viable on PvP servers.</blockquote><p>No, no it doesnt. Removing the root from Precision made us a bit more viable. This change to our self buff just removed it from my spell line-up for PvP and its still not good enough to justify spending a conc slot on it for PvE content.</p><p>Nice try Sony. C for effort, F for effect. Put it back how it was and try again.</p></blockquote>Actually, we're both right. The change makes t2/t3 troubies more viable in PvP for obvious reasons. We don't have mez. It ruins it for PvP at higher levels due to it breaking mez.I wonder how they're going to fix this one. I surely hope they don't just revert it to what it was.

[missing_peace]

<p>Can we get an update concerning this issue?  This issue has made a major negative impact on solo and group play and needs to be resolved very soon.</p><p>It's terrible when a class cannot use their own self buff.</p>

[Novusod]

I am surprised there has not been a red name comment on this. This really is a major, MAJOR nerf to a class that was already considered one of the hardest to solo with. There is no way to survive adds now because you can't lock down one mob while another is beating on you. I either have to evac or let them kill me if evac is down.

[Miele]

<cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I was suprised when I got Infusion for my Fury for instance and it continually got me killed because it doesnt say in the spell that it will hit ANY target in range no matter what it is - aggro or non-aggro. A buff that is a liability again. </blockquote>It may be out of context, but please, don't judge things when you don't know how extremely good they are.

[Acolos]

also would like to add other problems which are still visible on test and Live<b>Sonic Interference - End EoF AA - Decreases Targets Spell Duration by 30% --- Still makes there dots and HoT faster, which is more like a buff on the target --- this needs to be fixed -</b>Bristlebane Blessing - lasts 1 minute, makes target immune to Control spells for 1 minute.. which means a troubadour as basically no chance of killing anyone who uses thisManastone 2.0 - Makes people immune to mez for 1 minute, as it dots yourself.. this should have negative afects for gaining power, not positive..Charm should put you in pvp combat.. but dont fix this until manastone 2.0 has been fixed tbhBard Agi Line - Poison Concoction.. should be a buff, as it is useless for a troub and probably a dirge too... as it will break mez/fear, being that its a perma buff of which you have no control over, makes the line not worth going downMessengers Letter - Give it a pvp affect

[Acolos]

our mit needs increasing....all healers have more mit than us due to their buffs..let us wear plate like eq1 tbh <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Guy De Alsace]

<cite>Miele wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I was suprised when I got Infusion for my Fury for instance and it continually got me killed because it doesnt say in the spell that it will hit ANY target in range no matter what it is - aggro or non-aggro. A buff that is a liability again. </blockquote>It may be out of context, but please, don't judge things when you don't know how extremely good they are.</blockquote>Good it may be but until I figured out why I constantly kept getting aggroed by non-aggro mobs it was a liability having it up.

[Acolos]

test server still showing same bug with troub self buff....

[Trabbart]

<p>A develloper did almost immediately react to a post that a piece of fighter equipment broke mezz. Saying that THAT had to be looked into.</p><p>We just rolled the wrong class. Three years of being ignored. Its our special feat, some sort of stealth skill.  So learn to live with it.</p>

[Acolos]

this really needs fixing asap

[PaganSaint]

<cite>Acoloss4 wrote:</cite><blockquote>UPDATED --- Theory was correct SONG BARRIER PROCS WHEN TARGET IS MEZZEDSO -- IF I AM DOTTED , I MEZ SOMEONE -- thers a 20% chance of me breaking mez... this mak es mez useless unless i mez them firstI'm guesssnig this is the same in pveplease fix</blockquote><p>The troub self buff is a percent based, when damaged proc. It is targetted at the mob that does the damage, hence, the effect of breaking mezzes when you do not cure an effect off of yourself from a mob that you have mezzed. </p><p>It is not the same as an AE/encounter type proc that <i>should</i> be ignoring any mobs that are mezzed.</p><p>The tunic of shadowed songs does the same thing on my Swashbuckler, same type of proc, I just tend to carry around remedy potions and cure effects off of myself before the BP has a chance to trigger like anyone who wants to effectively solo should.</p>

[missing_peace]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Acoloss4 wrote:</cite><blockquote>UPDATED --- Theory was correct SONG BARRIER PROCS WHEN TARGET IS MEZZEDSO -- IF I AM DOTTED , I MEZ SOMEONE -- thers a 20% chance of me breaking mez... this mak es mez useless unless i mez them firstI'm guesssnig this is the same in pveplease fix</blockquote><p>The troub self buff is a percent based, when damaged proc. It is targetted at the mob that does the damage, hence, the effect of breaking mezzes when you do not cure an effect off of yourself from a mob that you have mezzed. </p><p>It is not the same as an AE/encounter type proc that <i>should</i> be ignoring any mobs that are mezzed.</p><p>The tunic of shadowed songs does the same thing on my Swashbuckler, same type of proc, I just tend to carry around remedy potions and cure effects off of myself before the BP has a chance to trigger like anyone who wants to effectively solo should.</p></blockquote><p> This is a self-buff.  No other class has a self buff that interferes with a primary class ability.  Troubadours do not have any given ability to cure any detrimental effects on themselves.  The self buff was useful before the change.  The self buff is not useful after the change.  This is not the same as an item proc interfering with mesmerize.  The self buff is supposed to be used for soloing.  The self buff is currently not used for soloing because of this issue.  It is broken.</p><p> I honestly do not know how to explain it in any simpler terms.</p>

[Acolos]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Acoloss4 wrote:</cite><blockquote>UPDATED --- Theory was correct SONG BARRIER PROCS WHEN TARGET IS MEZZEDSO -- IF I AM DOTTED , I MEZ SOMEONE -- thers a 20% chance of me breaking mez... this mak es mez useless unless i mez them firstI'm guesssnig this is the same in pveplease fix</blockquote><p>The troub self buff is a percent based, when damaged proc. It is targetted at the mob that does the damage, hence, the effect of breaking mezzes when you do not cure an effect off of yourself from a mob that you have mezzed. </p><p>It is not the same as an AE/encounter type proc that <i>should</i> be ignoring any mobs that are mezzed.</p><p>The tunic of shadowed songs does the same thing on my Swashbuckler, same type of proc, I just tend to carry around remedy potions and cure effects off of myself before the BP has a chance to trigger like anyone who wants to effectively solo should.</p></blockquote>heheso, i cast mez on a mob, i cancel autoattack and any dots within the 1sec or so cast time, and spam cure, everytime i mez a mob or player (in pvp), and hope i don't have more than 1 dot on me?Don't be silly tbh, you're talking noobish, our mez is our lvl50/70 spell, like DECAP etc?tbh, i don't mind as much with the pve problem of it because i don't pve that much, but the PVP affect is major.. it rendors using mez almost useless unless i dont use my self buff (217int, aprox 100agi, + the dmg shield) or if i mez them right away... just put the self buff back to proc'ing only off MELEE .. so easy to change it..

[PaganSaint]

<cite>Acoloss4 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Acoloss4 wrote:</cite><blockquote>UPDATED --- Theory was correct SONG BARRIER PROCS WHEN TARGET IS MEZZEDSO -- IF I AM DOTTED , I MEZ SOMEONE -- thers a 20% chance of me breaking mez... this mak es mez useless unless i mez them firstI'm guesssnig this is the same in pveplease fix</blockquote><p>The troub self buff is a percent based, when damaged proc. It is targetted at the mob that does the damage, hence, the effect of breaking mezzes when you do not cure an effect off of yourself from a mob that you have mezzed. </p><p>It is not the same as an AE/encounter type proc that <i>should</i> be ignoring any mobs that are mezzed.</p><p>The tunic of shadowed songs does the same thing on my Swashbuckler, same type of proc, I just tend to carry around remedy potions and cure effects off of myself before the BP has a chance to trigger like anyone who wants to effectively solo should.</p></blockquote>heheso, i cast mez on a mob, i cancel autoattack and any dots within the 1sec or so cast time, and spam cure, everytime i mez a mob or player (in pvp), and hope i don't have more than 1 dot on me?Don't be silly tbh, you're talking noobish, our mez is our lvl50/70 spell, like DECAP etc?tbh, i don't mind as much with the pve problem of it because i don't pve that much, but the PVP affect is major.. it rendors using mez almost useless unless i dont use my self buff (217int, aprox 100agi, + the dmg shield) or if i mez them right away... just put the self buff back to proc'ing only off MELEE .. so easy to change it..</blockquote>Do the same thing I have for my mez, make it a macro that cancels auto attack, cure as you are dotted, its not hard, especially if you are kiting like a solo bard does and cancel your dots right before and as you cast.The self buff was changed to be any damage to enhance your solo'ing in PvE and in PvP. Ranged attacks, DD spells and DoT spells were not proc'ing any damage, so basically as a bard was kiting and taking ranged and spell damage they went from just eating the damage to dealing the damage back to their target. You know, increasing your damage output. <cite>missing_peace wrote:</cite> <blockquote><cite></cite> This is a self-buff.  No other class has a self buff that interferes with a primary class ability.  Troubadours do not have any given ability to cure any detrimental effects on themselves.  The self buff was useful before the change.  The self buff is not useful after the change.  This is not the same as an item proc interfering with mesmerize.  The self buff is supposed to be used for soloing.  The self buff is currently not used for soloing because of this issue.  It is broken.<p> I honestly do not know how to explain it in any simpler terms.</p></blockquote> It is not interfering with a primary class ability. You not removing the dots is interfering with your class ability. Swashbucklers don't have any given ability to cure either, thats why I said I use remedy potions. What does troub all the sudden not have the ability to use those? Wait I just checked. They can.The self buff is <i>more</i> useful after the change for those who know how to counter the any damage reactive proc, proc'ing off damage from DoTs. You know, cures.Broken? No. Harder to use effectively against opponents who DoT you? Yes.Saying something is broken is saying that there is a flaw causing the effect to work in a way different than it is worded and other than how the mechanics work.This is working as worded, as the mechanics take action and from both of those, as intended.To use your phrase: <i>I honestly do not know how to explain it in simpler terms.</i>

[missing_peace]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is not interfering with a primary class ability. You not removing the dots is interfering with your class ability. Swashbucklers don't have any given ability to cure either, thats why I said I use remedy potions. What does troub all the sudden not have the ability to use those? Wait I just checked. They can.The self buff is <i>more</i> useful after the change for those who know how to counter the any damage reactive proc, proc'ing off damage from DoTs. You know, cures.Broken? No. Harder to use effectively against opponents who DoT you? Yes.Saying something is broken is saying that there is a flaw causing the effect to work in a way different than it is worded and other than how the mechanics work.This is working as worded, as the mechanics take action and from both of those, as intended.To use your phrase: <i>I honestly do not know how to explain it in simpler terms.</i></blockquote><p>If a troubadour had the offensive and defensive capabilities of a swashbuckler then I might agree.  However, the two classes play so differently that there is simply no comparison to their abilty to solo effectivly.  Without effective mesmerizing a troubadour simply does not solo.  A swashbuckler can easily overpower the same encounter through sheer damage capability.</p><p>If you want to advocate that troubadours be given the damage and defensive capabilities of a swashbuckler then, sure, keep the buff in it's current state.  Otherwise, it just cripples the troubadour class.  This is not some occasional issue that requires the use of a potion.  This affects every single fight for a troubadour.  They would use potions faster than a ranger uses arrows.</p><p>If we go by your definition of broken then perhaps that is not the correct phrase to use to describe the change.  It still remains, however, a monumentally bad mechanics change that futher hinders the troubadour's already poor ability to solo.  If you want to justify this as a good change for troubadours, then perhaps you should not compare them to a swashbuckler.</p>

[Jacien]

lolUm, is someone honestly arguing that since we can use cure/remedy potions to help our class defining abilities work as intended, that we're not broken?What other class requires dependency on potions for their class defining abilities to function?This is a mickey-mouse work around. It is not intended. Advocating the required use of potions to help "fix" our class is utterly ridiculous.

[PaganSaint]

How so?Mez is by far <i><b>not</b></i> the Troub's defining ability, just like it is not the defining ability for Swashbuckler or Bruiser.It is an added utility, a support ability that is used for what it is being used for solo and to a partial fail safe in groups.You may want to read the last five lines of my previous post.When you can prove that the ability is not working as worded, as the mechanics work for other like abilities and items then you can say it is broken.If you want to talk about broken from the standpoint of a class defining ability, look at Coercers and charm.

[Jacien]

Let's get away from the whole "It's broken" argument then. Let's change it to, "It's different" instead.Can you name one class that requires potion use for their self-buff to function properly (read: with no ill side effects)?If the answer is no, which I suspect it will be, why has the Troubador class had it's self buff altered to require potion use for it to function properly?

[PaganSaint]

Who says it is not functioning properly? It is functioning exactly the same way any other similarly worded ability and piece of equipment does.All this has been is a whine about how without taking measures to play intelligently to get the most out of a troub's buffs and abilities the self buff breaks mezzes.What I find wrong with the situation is how this is only a real problem because of how high the trigger percentage is on the self buff, requiring you to fully cure before use of the Mesmerize ability with little wiggle room due to the near certainty of triggering damage onto the mob if there are multiple DoTs.

[Jacien]

Who says it is not working properly? Well, how long has the self-buff ability been associated with bard classes? From their inception? If so, then for the past however long the game has been up and running the self-buff did not break mesmerize. Currently, it does. Therefore, the self-buff is not conforming to established standards of behavior. This is the definition of "Properly".Are you saying the self-buff was broken all these past years...and only recently fixed to function per it's written description? I don't believe the description was rewritten. So, why do you suppose they made the change?Can we agree the change was not reviewed thoroughly enough in testing to catch the inherent problems associated with using the ability in it's current form today?Do you have a suggesting resolution for the issues at hand? Perhaps a change which can remove the requirement of cure/remedy potions.

[PaganSaint]

The description was rewritten. It went from proc'ing off of melee only to proc'ing off of when damaged.EDIT:As far as a suggestion to remove the need to cure?No. Why make another aspect of the game take less skill?

[Jacien]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>The description was rewritten. It went from proc'ing off of melee only to proc'ing off of when damaged.EDIT:As far as a suggestion to remove the need to cure?No. Why make another aspect of the game take less skill?</blockquote>Ok, we're back to the start of your argument for keeping the change. Even though you admit to having "Little wiggle room" with regard to curing DoTs before mesmerizing, you're actually an advocate for this. Because, I assume, you enjoy the challenge this brings.The fact is, however, the change was not intended to make the bards lives more difficult or add any level of challenge to our game play. This is a side effect of a poorly altered ability that was clearly not given appropriate testing time nor thoroughly thought about before the change.You ask, why make another aspect of the game take less skill. I ask, why not? Why are bards the only class who now require the use of potions to effectively utilize their self buff in solo game play?

[PaganSaint]

No.Stop either willfully changing what I say, or learn to read more thoroughly.I said I do not want to see the need to cure removed, the proc chance itself needs to be lowered, it is the determining factor of how much wiggle room you have. The added effect of making the buff proc off of any damage was to increase the power of the buff, well guess what you can't exclude one buff from how the mechanics work. You can either have the buff as it is, procing off any damage and breaking mez if you are lazy/stupid and don't cure(working correctly) <b>or</b> you can have the buff proc off of melee attacks for a net gain of much less usefulness but doesn't break mezzes when dotted.~~~As for why not making another aspect take less skill?It is already stupid easy to solo heroic, read group, content in this game. The fact that you want everything, a damage proc that has a high percentage chance to proc, proc's off of any damage taken, doesn't break mez when you are too lazy to cure, and argue for yet easier gameplay shows exactly how pointless it is to argue with you over this.Here's a hint, I can't use a good many of the other classes I play abilities when solo'ing indiscriminately because they will either get me killed or make it exceptionally more difficult.Am I making a spam thread for that? No.Why? It takes more skill to have to swap buffs on the fly, cure, position mobs, root certain mobs, snare others, while mezzing yet others.Skilless play just leads to boredom.

[Acolos]

as someone saidthe buff change was to HELP us, but a side affect has made us worse... so, the buff needs to be changed back to melee only proc, or some work has to be done to stop it proccing when dotted...

[Asif]

Thats all we ask is put it back to the way it was and problem solved !!!!

[Cuz]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Blablabla.</blockquote>Shouldn't you be asking for your swash offensive buff to proc on spell cast on you, instead of how it is now? Personally I don't ever use the buff, but when I want to solo I just hop on my monk who's ridiculously easy to solo with, so meh. It's a bad change, but it's easier to get a monk or swash to T7 than it is to get this "fixed".

[Aeralik]

I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only.  So it should no longer proc on dot ticks.  Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ballads]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only.  So it should no longer proc on dot ticks.  Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote> If your not removing the conslot requirement  it is still worthless.  P.S> Please for the love of god remove the daze from precision of the maestro and it rok upgrade or add a stifle to cob for dirges.

[Lornick]

<cite>Ballads wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only.  So it should no longer proc on dot ticks.  Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />"></blockquote> If your not removing the conslot requirement  it is still worthless.  P.S> Please for the love of god remove the daze from precision of the maestro and it rok upgrade <b>or add a stifle to cob for dirges.</b></blockquote>That's just bad form bro.  If your drowning you ask for a life preserver... you don't ask for someone else to drown with you.

[Pitt Hammerfi]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only.  So it should no longer proc on dot ticks.  Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Yes because as we all know, troubies and dirges need all the help they can get when it comes to being wanted in groups/raids..

[PaganSaint]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only.  So it should no longer proc on dot ticks.  Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>Is this going to affect all buffs and debuffs that are worded the same as the Troub/Dirge buffs?

[PaganSaint]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only.  So it should no longer proc on dot ticks.  Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></blockquote>Is this going to affect all buffs and debuffs that are worded the same as the Troub/Dirge buffs?</blockquote>Just wanted to clarify this.This has the potential to massively change some fights if it does due to the nature of the uncurable and unstrippable debuffs/buffs they use.If it doesn't this could cause problems with any proc, DoT, or effects changes further down the road making the buffs either completely unusable or making them insanely powerful then nerfed to oblivion.

[Trabbart]

<p>Thank you for paying attention</p><p>Ikikik</p>

[Gungo]

<cite>Lornick wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ballads wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only.  So it should no longer proc on dot ticks.  Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />"></blockquote> If your not removing the conslot requirement  it is still worthless.  P.S> Please for the love of god remove the daze from precision of the maestro and it rok upgrade <b>or add a stifle to cob for dirges.</b></blockquote>That's just bad form bro.  If your drowning you ask for a life preserver... you don't ask for someone else to drown with you.</blockquote>Thats not true if i am drowning i want the person next to me to drown first that way i can use thier corpse as a floatation device.

[Slacka]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>We can only pray that its the long overdue removal of the conc slot requirement on our self buff.. a spell that i dont think i have used in over a year now as theres always something more important to the group that i need to run instead...

[Mulilla]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only.  So it should no longer proc on dot ticks.  Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>Thank you Aeralik, this was a bit disturbing for all those troub soloers and PVPers.</p><p>/dream mode on </p><p>Now that we caught your attention... how about removing the conc requirement from the self buff and the daze from PoM??? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>/dream mode off</p><p>Thank you for fixing the buff <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[saliorboy]

<cite>Pitt Hammerfist wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only.  So it should no longer proc on dot ticks.  Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></blockquote>Yes because as we all know, troubies and dirges need all the help they can get when it comes to being wanted in groups/raids..</blockquote>There is no point in argueing that Bards are always in high demand for a raid but when have you ever been in a group and said "Man, we could kill %t if we only had a Bard with us" or seen "group LF Bard of any flavor" in chat?

[Mildavyn]

<cite>Pitt Hammerfist wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only.  So it should no longer proc on dot ticks.  Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></blockquote>Yes because as we all know, troubies and dirges need all the help they can get when it comes to being wanted in groups/raids..</blockquote><p>Yes, because as we all know, troubies and dirges are all invited into groups because of their SELF-BUFF.</p><p>/sarcasm </p><p>[Removed for Content]</p>

[Asif]

<cite>Lornick wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ballads wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only.  So it should no longer proc on dot ticks.  Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />"></blockquote> If your not removing the conslot requirement  it is still worthless.  P.S> Please for the love of god remove the daze from precision of the maestro and it rok upgrade <b>or add a stifle to cob for dirges.</b></blockquote>That's just bad form bro.  If your drowning you ask for a life preserver... you don't ask for someone else to drown with you.</blockquote><p>Hmm i have to agree here just cause ours sucks no need to bring the dirges down with us .</p><p>But there is no need for it to cost a conc slot at all !!!!!</p>

[Mildavyn]

Aeralik didn't mention any other skills, my money is on this change being ONLY for the bard self-buff. Maybe they could leave the dirge one alone, they don't care if their mez... wait a second, they don't have mez!

[liveja]

<cite>Ballads wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only.  So it should no longer proc on dot ticks.  Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />"></blockquote> If your not removing the conslot requirement  it is still worthless. </blockquote><b><span style="font-size: large;color: #ff3333;">QFE.</span></b>

[liveja]

<cite>Pitt Hammerfist wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only.  So it should no longer proc on dot ticks.  Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Yes because as we all know, troubies and dirges need all the help they can get when it comes to being wanted in groups/raids..</blockquote><p>O, yes, of course you're right, because the bard <span style="color: #ff3300;"><b><span style="font-size: large;">SELF BUFF</span></b> </span>is so obviously the key reason Bards are brought along on raids.</p><p>/bonk</p>

[PaganSaint]

<cite>Paikis@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aeralik didn't mention any other skills, my money is on this change being ONLY for the bard self-buff. </blockquote>This would be very, very bad if they are making specific skills ignore mechanics now. There are only two ways way to solve the problem and leave the ability as proc'ing off of spell, ranged and melee attacks and not breaking the game through exclusions to mechanics.1) You change the mechanic itself for that type of wording, affecting debuffs and buffs on everyone and everything that procs off of any damage.2) You change the buffs themselves to read as three separate proc's on the two bard self buffs. When struck by a melee weapon xx% chance to cast blah blah attacker, When damaged by a spell a xx% chance to cast blah blah on attacker, When struck by a ranged weapon xx% chance to cast blah blah on attacker.The first option would change gameplay for many different fights.The second option would fix the problem, but require three separate codings to be attached to the buff instead of the one coding for the proc that is there now running the risk of being forgotten when any changes are done to any of the three proc trigger types and by extension broken.Neither is a simple fix like so many people are suggesting.I have faith in Aeralik that he will not do some [Removed for Content] poor exclusion of this one ability work around and actually fix the problem.But I would just like clarification as to the extent of how SoE is going to change the game or the ability.

[Acolos]

thank you very much for fixing the buff... is it LIVE now? or just on test?not had time to check...

[liveja]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are only two ways way to solve the problem and leave the ability as proc'ing off of spell, ranged and melee attacks and not breaking the game through exclusions to mechanics.</blockquote><p>The Bard self buff works as a "damage shield", so to speak. You hurt me, there is a chance my buff will hurt you.</p><p>It's my opinion that this self buff effect should only function on a Direct Damage attack. IOW, either a direct melee attack, or a direct nuke.</p><p>Having it proc from a DOT effect cast upon me is, IMHO, simply dumb. It's even more dumb, when that proc causes Mez to be broken.</p><p>I see no reason why repairing that issue should cause gigantic s**t-storms of worry.</p>

[PaganSaint]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are only two ways way to solve the problem and leave the ability as proc'ing off of spell, ranged and melee attacks and not breaking the game through exclusions to mechanics.</blockquote><p>The Bard self buff works as a "damage shield", so to speak. You hurt me, there is a chance my buff will hurt you.</p><p>It's my opinion that this self buff effect should only function on a Direct Damage attack. IOW, either a direct melee attack, or a direct nuke.</p><p>Having it proc from a DOT effect cast upon me is, IMHO, simply dumb. It's even more dumb, when that proc causes Mez to be broken.</p><p>I see no reason why repairing that issue should cause gigantic s**t-storms of worry.</p></blockquote>Except a damage shield works like my second option, when struck by xxxx type of attack it triggers. If a damage shield said any damage, it too would trigger on mobs that have cast/hit a DoT on you and were then mezzed.Not like any other when target takes any damage proc which proc's off dots which is why there is the considered problem now.The proc breaks mez because it is directly targets the mob that had cast/hit you with a DoT just like any other targetted damage effect would on a mezzed mob.Either way, I am not trying to argue the what, why, if or buts about this, they are the game mechanics, they work a specific way, arguing about that does not change them.I am trying to get the info on what was changed, and how because this can have either game wide repercussions, or multiple codings for one ability, or finally a slapped on emergency patch to halt the whining until it breaks for real due to the work around.

[liveja]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are only two ways way to solve the problem and leave the ability as proc'ing off of spell, ranged and melee attacks and not breaking the game through exclusions to mechanics.</blockquote><p>The Bard self buff works as a "damage shield", so to speak. You hurt me, there is a chance my buff will hurt you.</p><p>It's my opinion that this self buff effect should only function on a Direct Damage attack. IOW, either a direct melee attack, or a direct nuke.</p><p>Having it proc from a DOT effect cast upon me is, IMHO, simply dumb. It's even more dumb, when that proc causes Mez to be broken.</p><p>I see no reason why repairing that issue should cause gigantic s**t-storms of worry.</p></blockquote><p>Except a damage shield works like my second option</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;"><b>I said, "damage shield SO TO SPEAK", meaning it's not really a damage shield, but that happens to be the best way to describe it. </b></span></p><p>The proc breaks mez because </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;"><b>I know very well why it breaks Mez. I'm saying it should NOT proc off a DOT effect, whether doing so would break Mez or not. Take away the proc from DOTs, & no further issue.</b></span></p><p>I am trying to get the info on what was changed</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;"><b>& you'll find out when the rest of us do.</b></span></p></blockquote>

[Mildavyn]

<p>It should just be a matter of changing it to follow the same sort of mechanics as stealth does. Stealth will break when hit, but additional ticks of damage do not break stealth.</p><p>Personally I'd prefer it if they scrapped the whole 'damage shield' idea and made it an offensive proc. i.e chance to proc when *I* hit something.</p>

[VericSauvari]

destroyed is a harsh word, more like 'inconvienced'

[ReturnOfMadness]

tbh its fixed and from what i hear its fixed gooood (just look at the other official unofficial forums) on another note the fix wont prolly come till RoK

[Acolos]

<cite>Paikis@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It should just be a matter of changing it to follow the same sort of mechanics as stealth does. Stealth will break when hit, but additional ticks of damage do not break stealth.</p><p>Personally I'd prefer it if they scrapped the whole 'damage shield' idea and made it an offensive proc. i.e chance to proc when *I* hit something.</p></blockquote>dmg shield with the fix is good... an offensive proc that procs off hostile spells will break mez when debuffing the enemy ://

[Acolos]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only.  So it should no longer proc on dot ticks.  Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" />" /></blockquote>Has this jsut been fixed for the self buff?or for all dmg shield procs?i.e. there is lots of dmg shield procing pvp gear coming outm not to mention the tunic from OOB....and with this mention of not being able to SWAP gear during combat... all the dmg proccing pvp gear will be useless for a troub in pvpthanks

[Jacien]

In beta, bard self buffs proc only one initial damage, no dot procs anymore.AND...NO CONC SLOT USED.For reals. Self Buff no longer uses conc.Bard love x 10.

[Mulilla]

<p>I would like to thank the dev team and Aeralik in particular for listening to the bard community and not only fixing the self buff, but removing it's conc requirement as it should be from the begining (since bards dont have stances).  Moreover, the communication with the dev team while beta ended in tuning Precision of the Maestro as it should be, in line with our fellow dirges' counterpart and in line with other classes similar temp buffs.</p><p>Thank you, communication is what we were missing</p><p>[edit] <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> will have to edit my sig</p>

[Mildavyn]

<cite>Acoloss4 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It should just be a matter of changing it to follow the same sort of mechanics as stealth does. Stealth will break when hit, but additional ticks of damage do not break stealth.</p><p>Personally I'd prefer it if they scrapped the whole 'damage shield' idea and made it an offensive proc. i.e chance to proc when *I* hit something.</p></blockquote>dmg shield with the fix is good... an offensive proc that procs off hostile spells will break mez when debuffing the enemy ://</blockquote>Actually I wanted it to be a melee proc, not spell-based.