Seriously though... How are you really feeling about the endgame?

[SugarGirl]

<p>I saw this topic on the Splitpaw forums and thought it sounded liek a good topic. It turned out to be a recruiting thread for a new guild so I thought I'd steal it and put it here.</p><p>I want to first say that I think the developers have, despite a few minor screw-ups, put together a pretty amazing piece of software with EQ2. I don't imagine it can be easy to create an entire world. All in all my experience with EQ2 has been a pleasant one, but I think that the end game has been lacking in the realm of inclusion.</p><p> I know that my GF and I have been on since the servers first opened and were religious players right up through KoS. My highest playtime were during DoF, when I was in the top first 10 for my class in reaching lvl 60 and one of the first to reach 60 adv and 60 tradeskill. I can recall many 24+ hour sesions, etc. </p><p>Despit all of the effort that was put in, we still couldn't find much for raiding. Most fo DoF was spent running Poet's with a good Brigand friend of ours and maybe doing an occassional XP group with friends. My GF and I both agree that EQ demands too much for the average person to raid.</p><p>I've met a lot of folks that agree that the end game is kind of a let down for them too. Unless you come into the game with a big group of friends that can all log in at the same time, ou might as well write off the end game. You have a few guilds that are able to raid, and everyone else at the level cap is left wandering around waiting for the next expansion.</p><p>So,in my personal opinion, I think SOE fell down on the end game by making it so exclusive that only a select few can take part in it. I'd really like to see some of the raid zones I've missed out on. I always though it would be a treat if these zones were designed in a way that everyone could enjoy them. For instance, you could select group, x2, x3, or x4 at the zone in. </p><p>I know there are a bunch of people that disagree with me on this... but it's just one guy's opinion. It's how I, personally, feel about the end game; and I'm sure there are lots of other folks that have worked hard on their characters that would like to see all of this stuff too.</p>

[Skua]

?¿?¿?¿ i am sorry but dont get it ....u can play 24h++ and cant raid? raiding does take time , but nothing more than an unrest run if u ask me....join a raiding guild in your "playtime" and there u go....

[Dead Knight]

You can sit at your computer and grind for 24 hours, yet you can't sit there for 2 and a half hours and raid EH? Endgame is already too easy, it doesn't need to be nerfed anymore than it already has been because some carebear wants to see Wuoshi before level cap. You want to raid stuff like that, stop whining and join a real raid guild, leave your noob RP guild that can barely get together a force competent enough to clear Labs. Mayong was already nerfed to crap by some lame whiners that thought he was too hard and wanted to get their loot without the effort being put in, and guess what? Now Brigands are tanking him. You want to see end game content but stay playing casual in some guild that raids Labs and Lyceum once a week, then go look at screenshots or videos, don't ask SoE to nerf the content so some Xego tank can walk along and tank Avatar of Fear, thanks. Give me a [Removed for Content] break, lol.

[SugarGirl]

<cite>SkuaII wrote:</cite><blockquote>?¿?¿?¿ i am sorry but dont get it ....u can play 24h++ and cant raid? raiding does take time , but nothing more than an unrest run if u ask me....join a raiding guild in your "playtime" and there u go....</blockquote><p>*edit*   I can do 24+ hour stretches.. however, I can only be on 2 weeks a month.. I work 7 days a week 12 hours a day the other two weeks... It makes it hard to keep up raid attendance.  *edit*</p><p> That's my point.. Take a look at the raid guilds' recruiting threads. There's not a lot of them looking for anyone. Even when I have been in raid guilds it worked aout that either "A" I was the wrong class, or "B" my playtimes were wrong. In the last 6 months, I've spent close to $300 server jumping trying to find a good guild in my timezone that needs my class and I can honestly say there's not much.</p><p> In the meantime, I've been levelling up a few lesser played, more raid desirable classes, but  there aren't any guilds raiding the lower tiers either. It's easy, when you're already established, to call other folks whiners for sharing their opinions; however this isn't a whine at all. It is my experience of the endgame. In my opinion, the endgame zones are too narrowly reserved. I've said nothing about loot. I could care less about the loot tables. I would like to see the endgame zones and maybe have the opportunity to completely the quests that require completion of these zones without having to find 24 specific classes that can all be on according to my goofy schedule. I can honestly say that I have devoted a good solid chunk of time and effort to my characters and I would fully like to appreciate the developer's time and effort that has been dedicated to designing zones like Deathtool, Lyceum, Mayong, etc.</p><p>So, my impression of the endgame is that it has been too narrowly reserved to select groups (as far as zones and end mobs go) and it would be nice if these zones and mobs were available to a larger audience (with reduced loot tables) so that those of us that can not get into the top tier raid guilds could still enjoy the end game content.</p>

[Mystfit]

Unless you define **end game** as raids, I think its been grand. I causally raid with another guild but spend a good chunk of my time in groups getting class armor pieces. Not tried Castle Mistmore yet, but as far as the rest goes, easily grouped, don't have to be uber, can be run in an evening...you feel like you're making improvements. Best part was EOF was the first zone I felt like I was actually not behind. Most times everyone is in KOS, I'm still down in DOF....This time I am in EOF with everyone else. Ive been 70/100 for about a month now and busier then ever.

[Jal]

Endgame raiding isnt hard to get into if you try, yes some classes wont be needed on many raids such as tanks because there is limited number of these needed.  To make raids easy for any setup to complete would ruin it for the top level of raid guilds who go for the challenge and having the right classes for an encounter.Pickups are freely available to Labs, DT, Lyceum, AoA x2/x4, FTH, crab, MMIS and even recently cheldrak on splitpaw so if you arent getting in then you need to consider that your class isnt needed in that capacity.  The best thing is to always have two characters so you can fill a spot on an alt if need be rather than beat your head against a brick wall.

[SugarGirl]

<cite>Asarla@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Endgame raiding isnt hard to get into if you try, yes some classes wont be needed on many raids such as tanks because there is limited number of these needed.  To make raids easy for any setup to complete would ruin it for the top level of raid guilds who go for the challenge and having the right classes for an encounter.Pickups are freely available to Labs, DT, Lyceum, AoA x2/x4, FTH, crab, MMIS and even recently cheldrak on splitpaw so if you arent getting in then you need to consider that your class isnt needed in that capacity.  The best thing is to always have two characters so you can fill a spot on an alt if need be rather than beat your head against a brick wall.</blockquote>Yeah.. .this has been my experience..(the hitting head against a brick wall part) I happen to be one of those classes that isn't needed much. That's okay though.. I hav etwo more on their way up. I just wish there was some more people raiding in the lower tiers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> I feel like I've missed the whole game.

[Jal]

You wont be the only one so rather than wait for others just advertise that you want to raid rognog or any other t5/6 zone or even lower if you want.  Things like prismatic people will always have an alt or two who never finished it so just try and see.  The information on mobs is on the internet, plenty of people will know them or you can just go for the fun and work them out for yourself.

[Skua]

<cite>SugarGirl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SkuaII wrote:</cite><blockquote>?¿?¿?¿ i am sorry but dont get it ....u can play 24h++ and cant raid? raiding does take time , but nothing more than an unrest run if u ask me....join a raiding guild in your "playtime" and there u go....</blockquote><p>*edit*   I can do 24+ hour stretches.. however, I can only be on 2 weeks a month.. I work 7 days a week 12 hours a day the other two weeks... It makes it hard to keep up raid attendance.  *edit*</p><p> That's my point.. Take a look at the raid guilds' recruiting threads. There's not a lot of them looking for anyone. Even when I have been in raid guilds it worked aout that either "A" I was the wrong class, or "B" my playtimes were wrong. In the last 6 months, I've spent close to $300 server jumping trying to find a good guild in my timezone that needs my class and I can honestly say there's not much.</p><p> In the meantime, I've been levelling up a few lesser played, more raid desirable classes, but  there aren't any guilds raiding the lower tiers either. It's easy, when you're already established, to call other folks whiners for sharing their opinions; however this isn't a whine at all. It is my experience of the endgame. In my opinion, the endgame zones are too narrowly reserved. I've said nothing about loot. I could care less about the loot tables. I would like to see the endgame zones and maybe have the opportunity to completely the quests that require completion of these zones without having to find 24 specific classes that can all be on according to my goofy schedule. I can honestly say that I have devoted a good solid chunk of time and effort to my characters and I would fully like to appreciate the developer's time and effort that has been dedicated to designing zones like Deathtool, Lyceum, Mayong, etc.</p><p>So, my impression of the endgame is that it has been too narrowly reserved to select groups (as far as zones and end mobs go) and it would be nice if these zones and mobs were available to a larger audience (with reduced loot tables) so that those of us that can not get into the top tier raid guilds could still enjoy the end game content.</p></blockquote>ok now i get it , and i agree to some exent1 Eq2 population is a problem low pop = few raiding guilds 2 Raid encounters : u need X class , Y class , and balbalbalba or u wont make it3 Playtime ....2 weeks on , 2 weeks off =/ 4 your class : read 2u got a point but dunno how to fix it w/o screwing all endgame at all.....

[SugarGirl]

<cite>Asarla@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>You wont be the only one so rather than wait for others just advertise that you want to raid rognog or any other t5/6 zone or even lower if you want.  Things like prismatic people will always have an alt or two who never finished it so just try and see.  The information on mobs is on the internet, plenty of people will know them or you can just go for the fun and work them out for yourself.</blockquote><p>I wish this were true, but most of the time I just hear crickets. Maybe it's just my playtimes, but I tend to hear a lot of crickets when anyone tries to get a P/U raid together. At any rate, this wasn't meant so much to be another "how to get into a raid" thread as much as it was a "what do you think of the end game?" thread. I'm actually more interested to see if people are feeling satisfied with the top tier 'end game' content of EQ... Like, do you find it accessible enough, too accessible, too easy, too hard. Are you bored a lot? Is there too much to do before the next expansion? Is there enough diversity for you? Is everything too cookie cutterish? etc etc. </p>

[Azzikai]

<p>My opinion on the bit of "endgame" that I've seen is that it is repetitious and lacks creativity. I'm doing older content, KoS stuff, so maybe it will get better (but some guildies tell me not to count on it). Raid design is not EQ2's strongest point. That isn't, though, what you asked.</p><p>You don't necessarily need to be in a "raid guild" to raid. There are plenty of more "family" oriented guilds that do raid who won't bat an eye at your play schedule. There are also pick-up raids. You may not be sent a tell to go to them due to your class but that doesn't prevent you from noting exactly who is usually running these raids and then getting in touch with them about a spot in their next one. </p><p>If you have an odd schedule, or just odd expectations considering your schedule, then you are going to have to put in a bit more work to get what you want. Get involved with the raid capable community on your server and reap the rewards.</p>

[Femke]

<cite>Dead Knight wrote:</cite><blockquote>already has been because some carebear wants to see Wuoshi before level cap. </blockquote>I love carebears.... and in Lineage II I took great pride in it that people called me (and the clan I was in) carebears...And it only your problem that you see endgame as "raid only".... and your remark about "noob RP guilds" show clearly you have no idea at all... Ahh well, your loose....Femke.

[SugarGirl]

<cite>SkuaII wrote:</cite><blockquote><b></b><blockquote><cite>SkuaII wrote:</cite></blockquote>ok now i get it , and i agree to some exent1 Eq2 population is a problem low pop = few raiding guilds 2 Raid encounters : u need X class , Y class , and balbalbalba or u wont make it3 Playtime ....2 weeks on , 2 weeks off =/ 4 your class : read 2u got a point but dunno how to fix it w/o screwing all endgame at all.....</blockquote><p>I guess I don't understand how having a solo/grouped option screws up the end game if it's not dropping the same tier loot as the raid versions. Of course, I can see the development problems in having to design the mobs 3 or four different ways and itemizing everything 3 or 4 different ways. I'm not really expecting that. My whole point was simply that the endgame is fairly disappointing unless you are able to maintain status in a raiding guild. Being able to experience the content in some matter would improve my endgame experience. There are so many zones and encounters that I have had to pass up because of my inability to raid.</p>

[Jal]

There is always zones to do but im bored of most as i run them too much, raids to go to or just quests to finish but people always have specific interests like in real life.  Ive done tons of quests and am now pretty bored except on raid nights, i help guildies or playing LoN or just log out if im too bored and do something else.  I have no interest in alts or crafting but thats me limiting myself, id love to do real HC raiding on contesteds etc but i dont have the time so i just raid with the alliance im in when i can and amuse myself in between times either in or out of game.Another barrier that stops me doing more is not the game but other players, sometimes you meet great people in PUG's or PUR's but other times it can be a right gaggle of idiots and you just end up annoyed and usually facing a large repair bill. 

[Skua]

<cite>SugarGirl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Asarla@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>You wont be the only one so rather than wait for others just advertise that you want to raid rognog or any other t5/6 zone or even lower if you want.  Things like prismatic people will always have an alt or two who never finished it so just try and see.  The information on mobs is on the internet, plenty of people will know them or you can just go for the fun and work them out for yourself.</blockquote><p>I wish this were true, but most of the time I just hear crickets. Maybe it's just my playtimes, but I tend to hear a lot of crickets when anyone tries to get a P/U raid together. At any rate, this wasn't meant so much to be another "how to get into a raid" thread as much as it was a "what do you think of the end game?" thread. I'm actually more interested to see if people are feeling satisfied with the top tier 'end game' content of EQ... Like, do you find it accessible enough, too accessible, too easy, too hard. Are you bored a lot? Is there too much to do before the next expansion? Is there enough diversity for you? Is everything too cookie cutterish? etc etc. </p></blockquote>q2 raids are bleh  , check combat forum for more info (the post about combat system)<span style="color: #99cc00;">--do you find it accessible enough, too accessible, too easy, too hard?</span>-Meh hard becasue eq2 population is low =/ thats the main problem , a newbie rolling a monk bruiser palading zerker or wizzy necro will have HARD time getting into a raid guild.....<span style="color: #99cc00;">-- Are you bored a lot?</span>Meh bored while playing alts , 3hrs to get a !$!$!$ group , where is every1?<span style="color: #99cc00;">---Is there too much to do before the next expansion?</span>yup plenty of things to do , EH / avatars / the new raid in tunaria ....<span style="color: #99cc00;">--Is there enough diversity for you?</span>no all raids feel the same at least for me =/ <span style="color: #99cc00;">--Is everything too cookie cutterish? etc etc.</span>yup sometimes u just need to throw 5 of this class to win easy mode....

[Azzikai]

<i>do you find it accessible enough? too accessbile, too easy, too hard</i> <p>It is accessable enough for me. For the guy rolling a character today? Depends on what class they roll. </p><p>I play on a high population server, though. That said, high populations don't fix everything. Far too many people want to play "General" instead of being a great "soldier" which means the pool of people who do want to raid ends up spread out over too many different guilds.</p><p><i>Are you bored a lot? Is there too much to do before the next expansion?</i></p><p>As a rule, no. I have enough quests left in my journal that I can always find something to do. I am a "new" 70, though, so I haven't ran through what there is to do 100 times yet. There isn't "too much" left for me to do, I don't need to finish everything before the expansion hits.</p><p>Those in my guild that have been 70 forever, have already done all the quests I'm just now starting, they are bored. Some so much so that they've just left for other games until the expansion comes out. There isn't enough to do once you are 70/100, don't play alts or craft and have run Unrest more times than you can count. Raiding only fills a small part of your playtime and that doesn't exactly add to the variety.</p><p><i>Is there enough diversity for you? Is everything too cookie cutterish?</i></p><p>From my personal experience, as I stated above, the raiding in this game is rather lackluster. Particularly the KoS stuff which feels like one gigantic cut/paste fest. They may or may not have improved with EoF but I haven't seen many people raving about that content either. </p><p>Raid design is not EQ2's forte, whether or not it should be is another discussion entirely, but there it is. For those that really enjoy raiding there are a couple of other games that do it better.</p>

[SnoesieQ]

<p>Why does raiding have to be "end game"?</p><p>Maybe there needs to be more of a raiding progression through the tiers and a bit more solo/duo/trio questing put at the top tiers. More playstyles = better game IMO as you get more diversity amongst players, which is good. I hope the RoK quests will make both playstyles feel more "complete", instead of making people play in a way that isn't really their thing.</p><p>Yes, I'm bored and stopped leveling my "main" at 65 months ago. She's an inq so I do see quite a lot of call outs for pick up raids that she could go to if I really wanted to get her shaped up (in lvl and gear), but meh...  </p><p>/waves to the other splitpaw people and runs to hide</p>

[SugarGirl]

<cite>SnoesieQ wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Why does raiding have to be "end game"?</p></blockquote>I'd personally like to see some major questlines that don't finish with a raid. It was such a bummer to finish the entire Peacock up to the Godking and then have to quit.

[Skua]

<cite>SugarGirl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SnoesieQ wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Why does raiding have to be "end game"?</p></blockquote>I'd personally like to see some major questlines that don't finish with a raid. It was such a bummer to finish the entire Peacock up to the Godking and then have to quit.</blockquote>cloak of flames ? D:raincaller? >.<

[Wilde_Night]

<cite>Dead Knight wrote:</cite><blockquote> stop whining and join a real raid guild, leave your noob RP guild that can barely get together a force competent enough to clear Labs. </blockquote><p>Hmm... Our "Noob RP guild" is doing quite well.  We've cleared all of KoS's dungeons, which are now on farming status and working our way through the EoF ones now.  Wait... before you pshaw our accomplishments, we are doing this all as a Evil only guild on Venekor - A PvP server.  We don't get the leet benefits of using every class.  We have to do it the hard way, with limited classes and strategies and we like it that way.</p><p>As for end game, for me, there really is no end game.  We have hit a wall until the next expansion, but it is not the end.</p>

[SugarGirl]

<cite>Aeviel@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dead Knight wrote:</cite><blockquote> stop whining and join a real raid guild, leave your noob RP guild that can barely get together a force competent enough to clear Labs. </blockquote><p>Hmm... Our "Noob RP guild" is doing quite well.  We've cleared all of KoS's dungeons, which are now on farming status and working our way through the EoF ones now.  Wait... before you pshaw our accomplishments, we are doing this all as a Evil only guild on Venekor - A PvP server.  We don't get the leet benefits of using every class.  We have to do it the hard way, with limited classes and strategies and we like it that way.</p><p>As for end game, for me, there really is no end game.  We have hit a wall until the next expansion, but it is not the end.</p></blockquote><p>Gratz to your guild Aeviel. It's so much more pleasant to hear "our guild is doing well" and "we feel a sense of personal accomplishment" than it is to constantly hear "Oh my goddzorz, your guild is such sux you newb we r so 1337 cuz we can't spellz!" </p><p>As for 'end game' I t's probably the wrong term.. how about "current top tier content?" </p>

[Kizee]

<cite>SugarGirl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So,in my personal opinion, I think SOE fell down on the end game by making it so exclusive that only a select few can take part in it. I'd really like to see some of the raid zones I've missed out on. I always though it would be a treat if these zones were designed in a way that everyone could enjoy them. For instance, you could select group, x2, x3, or x4 at the zone in. </p></blockquote>Select few? There are 5 end game raiding guilds that do all of the end content on befallen. Toss in alot more that raid kos and some of eof and you have alittle more than a select few people that raid. (Thats just on 1 server)Pickup raids are probally your best bet if you want to see the endgame stuff or just wait until the expansion comes out and hit all the t7 stuff when it is green.

[nia]

<p>      I enjoy EQ2 but it does have its downfalls..... End game here does not really appeal to me....Im not one that constantly has t ohave the best gear in game....THe reason why is why do I need it??....Unless you're on a PVP server why must your gear be awesome when most classes are already way overpowered??...LEt me compare EQ1 to EQ2: EQ1 level 65 druid (yeah I quit a few expansions ago)....could solo blues pretty well if I had room to move around... EQ2 druid (fury): CAn solo level 70 oranges easily (could even take reds earlier) if they are not ^^^ heroics...basically I can handle anything that is not in a group of heroics...I think my Fury has it way easier than my druid did....I had t oahve good gear in EQ1....It was absolutely critical that I maxxed my mana pool and regen....I also liked the POP progressions and many of the trials....I felt like I had accomplished something in EQ1.....</p><p>       SO what is wrong with EQ2?? First of all it seems to come down to just raiding at 70....Yeah there are group dungeons and stuff but most of us have been there done that many times already and with no further gains in AA or XP whats the point?? In EQ1 we had so many AAs we could work on that it seemed like there was always an advancement even if it took time.....EQ2 I feel like Im just sprinting through quests to 70 then I start over and do it again on an alt.....If you like raiding then EQ2 end game is fine but to me it doesnt take alot of skill jsut following a scripted battle....It just seems like too many MMOs anymore are just 'Ok I wanna be max level in a couple days and hand me tons of uber loot".....Its not like many raiders actually earn what they get.....At least soloers kill their own stuff.....Raiders have 23 others helping out and often you dont really do all that much but a couple of button mashes and the mob is dead.....Then its 'Hand me my 200 dps sword please I earned it" and tons of whining...... </p><p>   </p>

[Andok]

The thing I hate about the ‘end game’ is that it shifts the main challenge to an out-of-game element – playtime scheduling.  You can know your class inside and out and be an excellent player, but you’ll never play the ‘end game’ unless you can organize your playtime schedule to consistently match the schedules of ~24 other people.  People who have erratic schedules or unusual playtimes are essentially locked out of end game content.All MMORPGs I have played have the same problem.  I hope some game company figures out a way to break this paradigm and enable those with erratic playtime schedules to play the end game.

[Armironhead]

<cite>SugarGirl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I saw this topic on the Splitpaw forums and thought it sounded liek a good topic. It turned out to be a recruiting thread for a new guild so I thought I'd steal it and put it here.</p><p>I want to first say that I think the developers have, despite a few minor screw-ups, put together a pretty amazing piece of software with EQ2. I don't imagine it can be easy to create an entire world. All in all my experience with EQ2 has been a pleasant one, but I think that the end game has been lacking in the realm of inclusion.</p><p> I know that my GF and I have been on since the servers first opened and were religious players right up through KoS. My highest playtime were during DoF, when I was in the top first 10 for my class in reaching lvl 60 and one of the first to reach 60 adv and 60 tradeskill. I can recall many 24+ hour sesions, etc. </p><p>Despit all of the effort that was put in, we still couldn't find much for raiding. Most fo DoF was spent running Poet's with a good Brigand friend of ours and maybe doing an occassional XP group with friends. My GF and I both agree that EQ demands too much for the average person to raid.</p><p>I've met a lot of folks that agree that the end game is kind of a let down for them too. Unless you come into the game with a big group of friends that can all log in at the same time, ou might as well write off the end game. You have a few guilds that are able to raid, and everyone else at the level cap is left wandering around waiting for the next expansion.</p><p>So,in my personal opinion, I think SOE fell down on the end game by making it so exclusive that only a select few can take part in it. I'd really like to see some of the raid zones I've missed out on. I always though it would be a treat if these zones were designed in a way that everyone could enjoy them. For instance, you could select group, x2, x3, or x4 at the zone in. </p><p>I know there are a bunch of people that disagree with me on this... but it's just one guy's opinion. It's how I, personally, feel about the end game; and I'm sure there are lots of other folks that have worked hard on their characters that would like to see all of this stuff too.</p></blockquote>Clearly, IMO there is not enough opportunities for solo or small grp play in eq2 at any lvl.  Sure you can grind non-herioc mobs to ur hearts content but where's the challenge?  Unless you can muster a grp or raid ur locked out of some of the more interesting zones.  But that said, if the end game is boring you and your on a pve server -- well that is why most of the folks on the pvp servers went to the pvp servers.  It is always more interesting when you have another brain on the other side challenging you.

[Kizee]

<cite>Armironhead@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SugarGirl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I saw this topic on the Splitpaw forums and thought it sounded liek a good topic. It turned out to be a recruiting thread for a new guild so I thought I'd steal it and put it here.</p><p>I want to first say that I think the developers have, despite a few minor screw-ups, put together a pretty amazing piece of software with EQ2. I don't imagine it can be easy to create an entire world. All in all my experience with EQ2 has been a pleasant one, but I think that the end game has been lacking in the realm of inclusion.</p><p> I know that my GF and I have been on since the servers first opened and were religious players right up through KoS. My highest playtime were during DoF, when I was in the top first 10 for my class in reaching lvl 60 and one of the first to reach 60 adv and 60 tradeskill. I can recall many 24+ hour sesions, etc. </p><p>Despit all of the effort that was put in, we still couldn't find much for raiding. Most fo DoF was spent running Poet's with a good Brigand friend of ours and maybe doing an occassional XP group with friends. My GF and I both agree that EQ demands too much for the average person to raid.</p><p>I've met a lot of folks that agree that the end game is kind of a let down for them too. Unless you come into the game with a big group of friends that can all log in at the same time, ou might as well write off the end game. You have a few guilds that are able to raid, and everyone else at the level cap is left wandering around waiting for the next expansion.</p><p>So,in my personal opinion, I think SOE fell down on the end game by making it so exclusive that only a select few can take part in it. I'd really like to see some of the raid zones I've missed out on. I always though it would be a treat if these zones were designed in a way that everyone could enjoy them. For instance, you could select group, x2, x3, or x4 at the zone in. </p><p>I know there are a bunch of people that disagree with me on this... but it's just one guy's opinion. It's how I, personally, feel about the end game; and I'm sure there are lots of other folks that have worked hard on their characters that would like to see all of this stuff too.</p></blockquote>Clearly, IMO there is not enough opportunities for solo or small grp play in eq2 at any lvl.  Sure you can grind non-herioc mobs to ur hearts content but where's the challenge?  Unless you can muster a grp or raid ur locked out of some of the more interesting zones.  But that said, if the end game is boring you and your on a pve server -- well that is why most of the folks on the pvp servers went to the pvp servers.  It is always more interesting when you have another brain on the other side challenging you.</blockquote>Are you serious? Not enough opportunities for solo or small group play? You might want to open your eyes because every dungeon in this game is doable as a duo/trio minus unrest and Niz.If anything the raiders should be up in arms for lack of stuff to do....not soloers/small group people.

[azekah]

He wasn't asking for a "nerf" to raids, but more options for raid zones...Such as, if you wanto go in all uber hardcore, select x4 when you enter a raid zone, but if you only have one group you could select x1 so that it scales down to your level...and of course loot should scale down as well...that way everyone gets to experience the content and the raiders maintain thier challenging content...

[interstellarmatter]

<p>After being at "end game" in a couple of MMOs (WoW included), EQ2 is the only one that has really kept my attention even after hitting the level cap.  </p><p>Can it be better? Of course! Anything can be improved.  With the wonderful progress that the devs have made in the game this past year, I'm hoping that it will continue on this course.  </p><p>End game is really a state of mind.  I've had my Inquisitor at the level cap for a long time now, but I've never considered her to be at end game.  She's always on the look out for new adventures.</p>

[liveja]

<cite>azekah wrote:</cite><blockquote>but if you only have one group you could select x1 so that it scales down to your level</blockquote><p>Single group content, by definition, is not a "raid".</p>

[Ravaan]

<p>i think the endgame sucks to be honest, i've done the raiding more for the ooo factor than the "omg i need lootz0r". I was never big on loot but i love the fight and the strategy of fighting new mobs. I love the grandness of a raid but i can only do a raid so many times before it becomes a yawn fest.</p><p>i've pretty much ran all the raid zones up to EH and after the 4th or 5th time its just downright dull.</p><p>I do like group instances those can be entertaining. wish there were more randomness to them though.</p><p>i would like to see more quest generated dungeons ala Lost dungeons of norrath or say something along the lines of City of heroes (but better) or Dungeon & Dragon online.</p><p>Also i would love to see a ravamp of the arena system to make it more intense with incentives to fight there.</p>

[Ravaan]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>azekah wrote:</cite><blockquote>but if you only have one group you could select x1 so that it scales down to your level</blockquote><p>Single group content, by definition, is not a "raid".</p></blockquote><p>O rly?</p><p>raid: A surprise attack by a small armed force</p><p>who's to say how small that armed force is? small can be 2-3 up to 100 depending on the defending army.</p>

[BungFoo]

<cite>Armironhead@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SugarGirl wrote:</cite><p>Clearly, IMO there is not enough opportunities for solo or small grp play in eq2 at any lvl.  Sure you can grind non-herioc mobs to ur hearts content but where's the challenge?  Unless you can muster a grp or raid ur locked out of some of the more interesting zones.</p></blockquote>I regularly two, three and four man heroic content through out the entire level range of the game with level appropriate characters. There is an absolute crap ton of stuff to do in this game. In my opinion and experience your premise is false.

[liveja]

<cite>Yannos@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>azekah wrote:</cite><blockquote>but if you only have one group you could select x1 so that it scales down to your level</blockquote><p>Single group content, by definition, is not a "raid".</p></blockquote><p>O rly?</p></blockquote><p>Rly.</p><p>You can trot out all the dictionary definitions you want; in MMO context, the term "raid" has always meant "more than 1 group."</p>

[azekah]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Rly.</p><p>You can trot out all the dictionary definitions you want; in MMO context, the term "raid" has always meant "more than 1 group."</p></blockquote>You can trot out all the "implied" definitions you want...that doesn't mean your right....

[Generic123]

<p>Combat in EQ2 isn't very dynamic.  You tend not top notice so much in groups because everything dies so fast, in raids where the mobs last a little (not much) longer you really notice how static and in place everything is.  The mobs warp to the tank and everyone stays put and nukes until its dead.</p><p>Mob and player movement need to slow down, mobs need to spread out, position themselves, and genernaly do things other then form a circle arround the tank.  Players need an incentive to spread out/work on multiple tasks instead of standing in a scrum so dense no one can see what's going on. </p><p>The combat issues aside though EQ2 raiding is quite good.  The lore is great and it's very accessible, and isn't nearly as much of an exercise in farming/grinding as other games.  </p>

[Chooba]

Didn't the old "Guild Raids" use to be scaleable to either X2 or X4? Even if they didn't, I think that would open up the end game content to a LOT more people. Most of the PUR on Nektulos try to use DKP, in my experience, which I think is just [Removed for Content] so doing the PUR thing isn't really a very good option either(at least for me it hasn't been) We have some good raiding guilds on our server (and some Uber guilds whose members are complete @#$@#) but most of them don't hold open raids. And don't tell me "go join a raid guild" 'cause i happen to like my guild mates quite a bit. I think smaller scale raid zones with appropriately scaled loot tables would help restore some of the interest in end game for the more casual player.

[Generic123]

<cite>azekah wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Rly.</p><p>You can trot out all the dictionary definitions you want; in MMO context, the term "raid" has always meant "more than 1 group."</p></blockquote>You can trot out all the "implied" definitions you want...that doesn't mean your right....</blockquote><p>He is right nonetheless.  The meaning of words changes based on context. This is a basic fact of the English language.  In the context of an MMO raid refers to a multi-group encounter.  You can choose to use it differently but no one will know [Removed for Content] you are trying to say. </p>

[liveja]

<cite>azekah wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Rly.</p><p>You can trot out all the dictionary definitions you want; in MMO context, the term "raid" has always meant "more than 1 group."</p></blockquote>You can trot out all the "implied" definitions you want...that doesn't mean your right....</blockquote><p>In the context of MMOs, it's not an implied definition at all. It IS the definition, & has been for years.</p>

[LordPazuzu]

<cite>Yannos@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>azekah wrote:</cite><blockquote>but if you only have one group you could select x1 so that it scales down to your level</blockquote><p>Single group content, by definition, is not a "raid".</p></blockquote><p>O rly?</p><p>raid: A surprise attack by a small armed force</p><p>who's to say how small that armed force is? small can be 2-3 up to 100 depending on the defending army.</p></blockquote><p>Your definition does not apply with in the context of EverQuest 2. </p><p>One group is not a raid.  One group is a group.  Single group content in EQ2 is classified as "Heroic" content, not a raid.  In EQ2 it cannot be 2-100, it can be 2-24.</p><p>2-3 people is considered a small group, 6 is a full group, 7-24 is a raid, though x2 and x3 content is getting awfully sparse.  Expect mostly raid content designed for 4 full groups (24 people) from here on out.</p>

[SugarGirl]

<cite>LordPazuzu wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Yannos@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>azekah wrote:</cite><blockquote>but if you only have one group you could select x1 so that it scales down to your level</blockquote><p>Single group content, by definition, is not a "raid".</p></blockquote><p>O rly?</p><p>raid: A surprise attack by a small armed force</p><p>who's to say how small that armed force is? small can be 2-3 up to 100 depending on the defending army.</p></blockquote><p>Your definition does not apply with in the context of EverQuest 2. </p><p>One group is not a raid.  One group is a group.  Single group content in EQ2 is classified as "Heroic" content, not a raid.  In EQ2 it cannot be 2-100, it can be 2-24.</p><p>2-3 people is considered a small group, 6 is a full group, 7-24 is a raid, though x2 and x3 content is getting awfully sparse.  Expect mostly raid content designed for 4 full groups (24 people) from here on out.</p></blockquote><p>Can we please not turn this into an argument of what "Raid" means? In the context of this post, it is irrelevant what is and is not a "raid". What is relevant is whether or not the majority of SOE customers feel satisfied with the content in the high end of the game.</p>

[SugarGirl]

<cite>Andok wrote:</cite><blockquote>The thing I hate about the ‘end game’ is that it shifts the main challenge to an out-of-game element – playtime scheduling.  You can know your class inside and out and be an excellent player, but you’ll never play the ‘end game’ unless you can organize your playtime schedule to consistently match the schedules of ~24 other people.  People who have erratic schedules or unusual playtimes are essentially locked out of end game content.All MMORPGs I have played have the same problem.  I hope some game company figures out a way to break this paradigm and enable those with erratic playtime schedules to play the end game.</blockquote>Andok. I really like how you phrased this. I couldn't agree more.

[SugarGirl]

<cite>Kizee@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SugarGirl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So,in my personal opinion, I think SOE fell down on the end game by making it so exclusive that only a select few can take part in it. I'd really like to see some of the raid zones I've missed out on. I always though it would be a treat if these zones were designed in a way that everyone could enjoy them. For instance, you could select group, x2, x3, or x4 at the zone in. </p></blockquote>Select few? There are 5 end game raiding guilds that do all of the end content on befallen. Toss in alot more that raid kos and some of eof and you have alittle more than a select few people that raid. (Thats just on 1 server)Pickup raids are probally your best bet if you want to see the endgame stuff or just wait until the expansion comes out and hit all the t7 stuff when it is green.</blockquote><p>Kiz.. from my experience, the raiding guilds on Befallen raid primarily in Eastern Time zone, require 50% or better attendance attendance, and are not recruiting anymore plate classes. The same goes for other servers I have checked out. So, as long as you are playing a DPS or healer class on the east coast and are on 50% of the time, you're not getting the opportunity to see these end zones. I am willing to wager that the majority of SoE's client base does not meet this standard. Therefore, there is a majority that is not getting to fully experience the game. </p><p> I, at no point in time, have ever suggested that raid content get hit with the Nerf bat. All I have suggested is that SoE make their content more accessible to their majority so that a larger customer base can check out zones and mobs that have, thus far, been in accessible to them.</p>

[Tae]

<cite>azekah wrote:</cite><blockquote>Such as, if you wanto go in all uber hardcore, select x4 when you enter a raid zone, but if you only have one group you could select x1 so that it scales down to your level...and of course loot should scale down as well...</blockquote>Why would you want to do any of the raids in a X1? There's already an X1 of labs, it's called Halls of Fate. There's nothing different about Labs in comparison. The mobs are just the same only they take longer to kill. The nameds are just Skarize Centurions with different names above their head. Nobody is missing anything by not going to certain raid zones. The only really unique looking mobs in the game are Tarinax, Chel'drak and Woushi. Otherwise the raid nameds are just larger versions of other creatures with new names. I cannot fathom why anyone would want to go through weakened versions of these zones, because there's really nothing at all you're missing.

[SugarGirl]

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>azekah wrote:</cite><blockquote>Such as, if you wanto go in all uber hardcore, select x4 when you enter a raid zone, but if you only have one group you could select x1 so that it scales down to your level...and of course loot should scale down as well...</blockquote>Why would you want to do any of the raids in a X1? There's already an X1 of labs, it's called Halls of Fate. There's nothing different about Labs in comparison. The mobs are just the same only they take longer to kill. The nameds are just Skarize Centurions with different names above their head.Nobody is missing anything by not going to certain raid zones. The only really unique looking mobs in the game are Tarinax, Chel'drak and Woushi. Otherwise the raid nameds are just larger versions of other creatures with new names.I cannot fathom why anyone would want to go through weakened versions of these zones, because there's really nothing at all you're missing.</blockquote><p>An even better question would be, why would anyone be opposed to other players getting to experience these zones for themseleves instead of having to just take someone's word for it that it sucks? </p><p>You're missing the point that for some people it is IMPOSSIBLE to meet the demands of a raiding guild. I CAN NOT MAKE THE RAIDS. Knowing this, it does not make it any easier to watch tier after tier of content go by that I'll never get to see. So.... the end game for me is disappointing at best.</p>

[Tae]

<cite>SugarGirl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>An even better question would be, why would anyone be opposed to other players getting to experience these zones for themseleves instead of having to just take someone's word for it that it sucks? </blockquote>Because I'd rather they design totally new zones in the style of unrest than waste time making terrible zones usable for one group. Also there are pickup raids (at least on Venekor) all the time that any class is invited to so long as they're level 68 or so. To all sorts of places. I don't see why you can't go on one of those. And we're a dangerously underpopulated server too. Then again Venekor has players from all over the world (meaning raids are going on at every decent timeslot) and I'm not so sure other servers do.

[SugarGirl]

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SugarGirl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>An even better question would be, why would anyone be opposed to other players getting to experience these zones for themseleves instead of having to just take someone's word for it that it sucks? </blockquote>Because I'd rather they design totally new zones in the style of unrest than waste time making terrible zones usable for one group.Also there are pickup raids (at least on Venekor) all the time that any class is invited to so long as they're level 68 or so. To all sorts of places. I don't see why you can't go on one of those. And we're a dangerously underpopulated server too. Then again Venekor has players from all over the world (meaning raids are going on at every decent timeslot) and I'm not so sure other servers do.</blockquote>I have seen one PUR on Befallen and they weren't willing to take another plate class. If they are happening.. they aren't happening when I'm on. You're lucky if you can even get a PUG on most nights.

[TaleraRis]

How I feel about the end game of EQ2 is pretty much the same. There is a ceiling that non-raiding play styles come to in terms of content. Soloers can only go so far in their play style before hitting the wall where quest lines and mobs turn heroic or epic. Groups can get a little farther, as there is more content available in the form of instances. And the raiding play style can go the farthest, able to experience the solo, group and raid areas. I would love to see, and have suggested many times myself, alternate pathways to advancement, that lead to "end games" for each play style and result in items/spells that are important in that play style and have the qualities valued by that play style. Even though the mobs for a play style differ, general tactics are on a wide basis the same, and stats/effects/procs are going to be valued on a general basis with that play style. Take my Rain Caller. The stun is incredibly useful for a solo ranger. The usefulness  might become more marginal for a grouper, moreso for a raider. They might need an improvement on the simple stun effect that is going to be more valuable in their play. Or a different effect entirely that helps them in what they do more. The core of the idea is putting challenge back into *all* play styles. Right now there's the belief that more people = more challenge and it just doesn't have to be that way. Solo content doesn't have to be mindless, grouping content doesn't have to be running this instance or that one, raiding content doesn't need to pile on the AoEs, but all can get a dose of creativity to make them more engaging. And I feel your pain with Peacock. I'm a questoholic and it would be nice to just be able to finish the questline that went switcheroo on me, rather than have it to a certain point and not be able to have some closure. An alternate end with an alternate reward would be ideal.

[SugarGirl]

<p><b><i>Ooops Double Post</i></b></p>

[SugarGirl]

<cite>TaleraRis wrote:</cite><blockquote>The core of the idea is putting challenge back into *all* play styles. Right now there's the belief that more people = more challenge and it just doesn't have to be that way. Solo content doesn't have to be mindless, grouping content doesn't have to be running this instance or that one, raiding content doesn't need to pile on the AoEs, but all can get a dose of creativity to make them more engaging. </blockquote><p>Amen! One of my best memories of EQ2 was doing Poet's with a 3 person group. There were a couple of encounters where the three of us sat looking through our combat logs to figure out why we just got our arses handed to us. </p><p>We'd adjust our strat and try it again. It wasn't long before we were able to clear the zone... and feel a sense of acomplishment in doing so. There is no reason that this sense of accomplishment should belong just to one playstyle, challenging content should be available throughout all the playstyles. I have no problem with the developers taking time to create alternate instances to appeal to a larger audience. I would think it would just be good business sense to try and satisfy as large of a client base as possible. </p>

[Gnevil]

Everyone has an opinion and in their own little version of the real world... they are right and everyone else is less then right for asking for multi tier options for raid zones.I understand the frustration from both ends of the spectrum.  Raiders quite honestly don't have alot of options in tier 7, they are on farm status for all of the KOS content, and are quickly adapting to the EOF content, less EH and Contested Mayong and Avatars.  They have geared themselves in nearly all the best stuff a couple times over and farm the raid zones to hone their strats and make the guild money to afford to buy the next tier of stuff as soon as possible to be able to be the first to scream my E - P - E - E - N is bigger and shinier then yours.Everyone agrees that raiders (3 to 4 group hardcore raiders) should have the best of the best.  But their are so many quest lines in this game that I bet most everyone wants to finish before it's greyed out that why would it be so bad to have a x2 version of the end zone that rewarded say a legendary version of the item in question instead of the fabled version ect.  Risk vs. reward ect ect ect.I myself would love to see the EOF content before it becomes grey.. and sadly do to my work schedule I will not see it before then.  I accept this and yet it still is annoying to know I won't see the end of my quest lines before they have become grey... unless you are flush with plat like a few on my server that have bought their way into the final fights to finish peacock, claymore and yes even SOD...As to join a raid guild .. that cracks me up, most raid guilds are established forces that have very little turn over and if they do its for a single slot or two of a very specific class.  If you are a new player, or a long time non raider without the uber gear (by this on my server if you are not wearing at least a heavy chunk of the best KoS gear out there at the minimum, then you are not gonna be considered hands down... they want the maxed 70 / 100 with a great KOS and a few pieces of EOF gear or you just aren't worth the effort to work you up.  Unless you happen to be that one lucky soul who just happens to play the class no one else does? lol does that even exist anymore.As for pickup raids, yeah I can hit one every other weekend, and often do... but it's to the same worn out crap that everyone else complains about, sadly LABS and LOA gear are considered junk anyone can get by most of the raiding population.  I still think it's great gear for the casual raider who is trying to better himself, but by most its laughable.  And even in Labs and LOA gear you aren't likely to get in a pick up raid that can clear DT to finish Claymore... maybe when peeps are 75 this will be the norm but right now LABS clearable by most or at least all the way to Vymm... LOA clearable by most at least to the final fight...  And yes DT pickup raids do happen but they are usually miserable failures.No one is asking for raiders to have to suffer, but why can't their be diff editions of some of the raid zones to allow for say a x2 edition to help peeps see it and finish those great quest lines that they have worked their [Removed for Content] off on...  Hey if they have gotten that far they have really put in the time none of these quest lines are anything close to easy and non time consuming to get them to the end...But sadly this will not be the case.  Peeps will say the game is to f'ing easy now, me included, it is for the most part very easy and no you should not have it all .. but a little bit more of the world opened up to the not so hardcore east coast 1 of 24 raid member guilds would really help this game alot I think.  Raiders still account for a very small portion of the over all population...

[Caethre]

<cite>TaleraRis wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>How I feel about the end game of EQ2 is pretty much the same. There is a ceiling that non-raiding play styles come to in terms of content. Soloers can only go so far in their play style before hitting the wall where quest lines and mobs turn heroic or epic. Groups can get a little farther, as there is more content available in the form of instances. And the raiding play style can go the farthest, able to experience the solo, group and raid areas. ...</p><p>The core of the idea is putting challenge back into *all* play styles. Right now there's the belief that more people = more challenge and it just doesn't have to be that way. Solo content doesn't have to be mindless, grouping content doesn't have to be running this instance or that one, raiding content doesn't need to pile on the AoEs, but all can get a dose of creativity to make them more engaging. </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">OOC.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I completely agree with the above post. Furthermore, it seems to me that I am forever seeing a "sense of entitlement" from the very (very) tiny minority of hardcore raiders for more content for their playstyle that "excludes" other players, because they feel they deserve "challenge" from content that 90% (or 99%!) of the playerbase will never see, just because of they have a real-world lifestyle that allows them to be online at the drop of a hat. But I just see such development as largely wasted content.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">However, like the above poster, I have always felt that such raiding should give reward that helps <u>that</u> playstyle progress, but which does not help those same players when back in solo and small group settings, and that players who are in the latter, have progression available to them of their own, that does not merely hit a ceiling that excludes them from content purely due to lack of numbers.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">The design of content that requires progression for smaller groups of players but which can only be progressed using gear acquired on that progression line (and not using gear rewarded from raids) is the answer. This would then provide a route for advancement for a larger percentage of the playerbase that is not trivialized by gear obtained from other encounters designed for those relatively few players who like to hang around in groups of 24.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Game design could cater for this, and I am sure will in the future, as gaming becomes more and more inclusive. I see the first step toward this with RoK, when I read that the top-level fabled items from raids are meant to only help on further raids (and not specifically be useful in groups). This is just a first step on this much needed path, however.</span></p>

[SugarGirl]

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TaleraRis wrote:</cite> <p><span style="color: #ff6600;">give reward that helps <u>that</u> playstyle progress, but which does not help those same players when back in solo and small group settings, and that players who are in the latter, have progression available to them of their own, that does not merely hit a ceiling that excludes them from content purely due to lack of numbers.</span></p></blockquote><p>The mechanics for this are already in game with a lot of items. There are a number of spells/item effects that are flagged "Does not Affect Epic targets" I would think it would be easy to set up a tier system on these items so that a particularly powerful effect on an item gained through a solo instance would be flagged "Does not affect heroic or greater, or if found in a group instance it would not affect epic or greater. Those looted in an x4 instance would hav3e the same effect, but they would have no flags on them. I personally think giving a raider an ability on a spell or an item that Does not affect epics" is just dumb anyhow. </p><p> Doing this, people could gear their characters up according to their playstyle without detracting from the raiding community. It would help give some progresion throughout the different playstyles. I would be happy with a nice weapon that had a stun proc that didn't affect epics... and if a raider were to examine me, they'd know that I was a groupist. They'd get to keep their bragging rights that goes along with their accomplishments.</p>

[liveja]

<cite>SugarGirl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You're missing the point that for some people it is IMPOSSIBLE to meet the demands of a raiding guild. I CAN NOT MAKE THE RAIDS. Knowing this, it does not make it any easier to watch tier after tier of content go by that I'll never get to see. So.... the end game for me is disappointing at best.</p></blockquote><p>SOE is not responsible for your time scheduling issue, & IMHO is certainly not required, by any stretch, to re-tool their "end game" so that people with odd schedules can participate in it.</p><p>Obviously, they'd like to be able to accomodate you, but they've made their choices about how their game will be, just as you've currently made your choices about how your life will be. Sooner or later, you have to ask yourself if the MMO model is even for you -- much as you may enjoy it -- because you simply don't have the time to play.</p><p>OTOH, perhaps you should consider moving to Mistmoore, where there are quite a few guilds willing to take people along on raids as guests. Two weeks ago, Imperium (much love for Imperium!!!) put out a call on the 60-69 & 70 channels: "Anyone need Blackwater Mask FTH updates? Couple spots open!", meaning they were willing to take pretty much anyone who was willing to come along. In fact, that's how I've gotten into every single raid I've been on, as a guest of some other guild.</p>

[DizzyGee]

I love the "endgame" - there is so much to do that I often have difficulty deciding and end up standing around for a half-hour considering my options (and, of course, researching questlines on eq2.wikia.com).One of my favorite pass-times is completing the old (and unfortunately no longer required) access quests, for one reason because they often involve named mobs that are otherwise not there.As far as pickup raids go (love 'em or leave 'em), there are plenty happening most days on Permafrost - and yes, plate-bearers are most certainly welcome (at least to the weekly KoS raids we organize).Last, but not least, there is always some lower-level guildie, who would be tickled to get some mentor-lovin' (and maybe even the odd quest completed).There is, in my humble opinion, and has been more than enough to keep me occupied since I hit 70/70/100/292 (yeah, still gotta max out that transmuting skill). ;-p

[BowB4Me]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SugarGirl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You're missing the point that for some people it is IMPOSSIBLE to meet the demands of a raiding guild. I CAN NOT MAKE THE RAIDS. Knowing this, it does not make it any easier to watch tier after tier of content go by that I'll never get to see. So.... the end game for me is disappointing at best.</p></blockquote><p>SOE is not responsible for your time scheduling issue, & IMHO is certainly not required, by any stretch, to re-tool their "end game" so that people with odd schedules can participate in it.</p><p>Obviously, they'd like to be able to accomodate you, but they've made their choices about how their game will be, just as you've currently made your choices about how your life will be. Sooner or later, you have to ask yourself if the MMO model is even for you -- much as you may enjoy it -- because you simply don't have the time to play.</p><p>OTOH, perhaps you should consider moving to Mistmoore, where there are quite a few guilds willing to take people along on raids as guests. Two weeks ago, Imperium (much love for Imperium!!!) put out a call on the 60-69 & 70 channels: "Anyone need Blackwater Mask FTH updates? Couple spots open!", meaning they were willing to take pretty much anyone who was willing to come along. In fact, that's how I've gotten into every single raid I've been on, as a guest of some other guild.</p></blockquote>I applaud the sensitivity to the needs of others in the above postYes everyone pays their sub so yes we ALL have a right to a playstyle with which we are comfortable.  For some it is raiding.  For others it is grouping and for others it is soloing; or a combination of all 3.Back in the day there were 2 styles (pretty much) - solo or grp.  With the evolution of the game, and with the higher levels then raiding has come more to the forefront of things.  But is this because it is a 'better' way to play, or actually a way to disguise the lack of new stuff actually in the game?I hear people every day saying - I have all I can get out of grouping I need to raid because I am bored.  I am too good (lol I know there are good players out there but still...) to group, even to help others and, by implication, you are not good enough.  And this within a <b>casual </b>guild.  Personally if I was that jaded with the game I would recommend maybe you go out and play something else than actively seek not to help others enjoy the game to the max by lending your skills and expertise (and firepower <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />).  This could, I don't know, be what is putting people of fcoming fresh into the game and why it is the same people who play day in day out.  I love EQ2 - despite the server updates on EU servers happening at the same time as those in the US, despite seemingly random amounts of downtime, and depsite the live servers beta testing stuff, but it is fast becoming unplayable for me and, I would imagine, for a lot of other people who can't dedicate the time and effort to what is meant to be a game and not a way of life.My partner doesn't play and is amazing about the amount of time I already spend mashing away at the keyboard with this ,but I can't expect him to understand if I have to play pretty much full time to keep up with the raiding requirements of the game (let alone the leet peeps out there).  Hell I play more because of friendships built up since the original beta all those years ago than because I actually enjoy the game any more. It just annoys me that I KNOW that the next expansion pack will just be more raiding and less content.  But I live in hope that SOE will actually reintroduce the variety that made it such a joy to play and continue playing.Anyway Endgame?  ROFL I haven't come close to any endgame and would probably leave if I had.

[liveja]

<cite>BowB4Me wrote:</cite><blockquote>But I live in hope that SOE will actually reintroduce the variety that made it such a joy to play and continue playing</blockquote><p>I don't know that they need to "reintroduce" anything. I'm a member of a non-raiding, "friends-&-family" guild, I'm a notorious soloist -- I've got a 50 Troubie, for example, & I've solo'd probly 48 of those levels -- & yet I'm never short of things to do, even on my 70th level main.</p><p>& no, BTW, I'm not a "raider". I go on raids when I'm lucky enough to get a spot as a guest. I need Blackwater Mask updates, & yet, when Imperium put out that call for guests to come get their FTH updates, I continued doing guild writs instead. I would have loved to get that quest done, but helping my guild level to 60 was more important to me at the time. IOW, I made a choice, & I deal with the consequences of that choice.</p><p>Other people need to make their own choices, & then deal with those consequences.</p>

[thrdeye]

im not one to normally comment on forums.. usually just let them be.. but have to say something here first off.. many quest that are epic were not origanlly intended for casual players.. sorry u casually's but the claymore.. moa.. and so on for created for the hard core in the first place.. not for some bum to jump on and be like "woot" i got claymore done .. with out putting in effort now dont start attacking me on this because soe has heard your crys.. which i think is good... myslef i now your pain suga.. i was 70/70/100/350 before i finally got spot in raiding guild as a zerker.. so i know how it is.. but soe has nefred quest and names for most of the past epic quest to let casual players finish these.. and where your crys have been answered is with SOD (epic weapons will be the same) u can one group sod the get your reward (legendary soulfire).. end game content not raid required... BUT if u start crying " i want fabled soulfire.. to bad... the fabled is reserved for Raiders to earn it... second thing.. yea they can go and make X2 and X3 zones with less rewards.. but u know what.. we have those already and guess what .. no body plays them because they are boring with less rewards... if u want to experince so of these start PUR for them.. they are quite easy (exception being Castle for casuals).. but i feel the more x2 content they put in.. the less u will see them getting used last thing.. rok bringing lots of changes for us to deal with matters such as.. most of the outer world will be soloable from what i read (fear the palt farmers ruining the game here) lots more instances and dugeons for groups...( sett pieces here) epic quest line which grants weapon based on style pay (other quest falling suit) and for u raiders.. 11 new raid zones ..a few contested most being progression... some one said raiding is very repeative and boring.. stand in one spot and press bottoms.. mm dont rember cheldrak being quite boring.. lots going on there.. and eof names all had new quirks to them to learn.. so seems to me things getting less repeative and more creative.. expect rok to follow here the problem many of us face now is out of content.. bored myslef with everything short of raiding. this happen because last expasion didnt bring any lvl increase which caused most of us to burn threw content much faster then soe expected (which i remeber a dev saying in a pod cast) the dev had said ROK is going to be a much slower Lvlng prosses then the past which will slow content burning to help us stay focused and excited to play tell they release something new.. blah blah blah i said enough

[Phazation]

I actually sort of dread hitting 70 because there doesn't seem to be any end game at all. Without battlegrounds or an aaxp system like EQ1 I don't see much point in playing a character once capped.

[Hechicera]

<cite>Gnevil wrote:</cite><blockquote>Everyone agrees that raiders (3 to 4 group hardcore raiders) should have the best of the best.  </blockquote>Well, no.  Everyone does not agree to this.  I can think of two games in beta recently where the beta-tester to beta-tester flame wars over this exact point were quite brutal.What that tells me is that raiding as an end-game gameplay mechanic, and ultimate reward gate, is getting stale.   I'll make that as an industry statement, not an EQ2 bash, or even a bash on the players that a) enjoy and b) can schedule and c) are comfortable playing a needed class and not the one they like/rp .. and therefore can raid.  Raiding is fine (as a game play mechanic) but only for those who can partake.  And raiding as a gameplay mechanic has been BEATEN TO DEATH.  As already mentioned, other games, have already taken raiding design to (imho) its pinnacle.   Raiders have options, good ones.  Yay.I don't see this subject as a referendum on raiders at all, but on the MMO industry at large.  And fwiw, games with hardcore PvP only endgames have the same issues.  Game publishers complain that there is "churn" in subscibers and people keep dropping for the MMO of the pico-second.  Why?  For a measurable segment of the population there is only the game up to the end-game to play.    Once you get to the content thats not accessible, why pay for the game?  Nope, you move to new shiny MMO X and play that game up to the endgame.  Oh look is MMO Y or Z out yet?  Content in a new MMO at level one is always new and accessible.  Thats all they need. New stuff they can do.Thats also why casual players in any beta's usually turn the beta-boards into blood-infested waters the minute the words "raiding", "raider", or "all he best rewards will come from ..." are mentioned.  They want a new home, not a new game of the pico-second.   But raiders want shiny, fresh new raids too.  So they rather unconstructively form up into teams and try to bludgeon "the other side" into submission.But, for any game in the future to expect to hold their subscriber numbers up against all the new MMO's being made - they need to offer a player-scheduled accessible endgame.  Time-constrained players should never run out of content.  Period.   Is it not an oxymoron that the only players who rarely run out of content are the ones who can play harder and more?  Of the older MMOs, EQ2 is actually doing a better job than most in accessible endgame tho .. imho.

[DngrMou]

<cite>SugarGirl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So,in my personal opinion, I think SOE fell down on the end game by making it so exclusive that only a select few can take part in it. I'd really like to see some of the raid zones I've missed out on. I always though it would be a treat if these zones were designed in a way that everyone could enjoy them. For instance, you could select group, x2, x3, or x4 at the zone in. </p><p>I know there are a bunch of people that disagree with me on this... but it's just one guy's opinion. It's how I, personally, feel about the end game; and I'm sure there are lots of other folks that have worked hard on their characters that would like to see all of this stuff too.</p></blockquote>Join a guild....start a guild...sign up with a raiding alliance.  It does'nt take a commitment of hours and hours and days and days to enjoy some casual raiding.  Raiding is not exclusive to only a few players, even though many hard core raiding guilds are very picky...it does'nt prevent you from enjoying the same content.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<p>I'm loving the endgame <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>There never seems to be enough time to do everything that I would like. I'm heavily involved in guild activities and planning, Tradeskilling, questlines, raiding and adventuring.</p><p>My favorite toon is pushing his limits as far as progression goes, and he's still a blast to play. He is currently working on some goals that will take him well past the next expansion without a doubt. I also use him frequently to help others work on their goals, that's another very satisfying thing for me as well.</p><p>If we bring Alts into the equation...wow, way to much too much for them to do even to scratch the surface of their options.</p><p>Perhaps if I was only interested in certain parts of the game, and not as entertained by the social aspects either...I *might* be able to "complete" everything I was interested in and then get a sense of "stagnation". As it stands for me though, there are just too many options and playstyles I enjoy. Even playing multiple hours daily, I can't imagine being bored or at a loss for something to do anytime in the near future.</p>

[interstellarmatter]

The thing is..if I didn't feel good about endgame, I'd been gone a long time ago.  Life is too short to waste time with something that doesn't bring me enjoyment.

[sotyred]

As far as I am concerned , there is no such thing in a MMORPG as an "endgame" .so non-existent things don't bother me...