Just a thought...

[Rayle]

<p>i was just browsing the eqplayers website, when i came across a section of lore surrounding meldrath (<a href="http://eqplayers.station.sony.com/news_article.vm?id=50540" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://eqplayers.station.sony.com/n...cle.vm?id=50540</a>) and i got to thinking...</p><p>it looks like some of the old world (eq1 post-timerift) is heading towards the same general direction as the new world (eq2)... now, for all we know akanon was taken over pre cataclysm... but i was thinking, wouldnt it be cool if there was a way to "move" the direction of one of the timelines? would it be possible to make the two timelines cross? what would happen? </p><p>now i might just sound like an idiot, take it as you may. I read the article and the little hampster in my head starting running... what do you guys think?</p>

[Cusashorn]

Oh geeze I hope not. If the two timelines crossed, then that would only give them an excuse to unexcuably consider all of the Post POP expansions as canon, and I for one do not want that.

[Mary the Prophetess]

<p>Well, one time split was enough to muddy up the lore between the two games almost beyond belief.  A cross over would make any attempt to sort it all out totally [Removed for Content].</p><p>I have a headache just thinking about it; I am going to a happy place now. (*curls up into a fetal position in the corner*)</p>

[troodon]

<cite>Rayleen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>but i was thinking, wouldnt it be cool if there was a way to "move" the direction of one of the timelines? would it be possible to make the two timelines cross? what would happen? </p></blockquote>That would not be cool, it would be horrifying

[Mary the Prophetess]

<p>Ok, I am going to get a little more in depth in my analysis.  You asked a serious question, and you deserve a serious answer.</p><p>There are basically two different categories of people that play MMOs: gamers and roleplayers.  These are not necessarily mutually exclusive, as it is possible to be both.  Indeed, most people who play fall into both categories to one degree or another, rather than one or the other exclusively.</p><p>However each demands a different set of design parameters.</p><p>Making a game challenging and competetive is the design thrust for those whose primary interest lies in the competitive aspects of the game.  The setting is of secondary importance.  To a gamer, it is really rather irrelevant whether it is a fantasy game, a science fiction game, or playing a spoon trying to scoop up Coaco Puffs.  It is the challenge that is the primary motivator.</p><p>To the roleplayer, the opposite is true.  They are more interested in the immersive aspects of the game.  Since this is a lore board, I will speak to that aspect in a little more depth.</p><p>A fantasy roleplaying game must operate under a set of rules.  These allow the player to suspend disbelief, and immerse themselves in the game.</p><p>In an MMORPG, accepted convention and lore do actually play a very important, (perhaps even a vital), role in this immersive aspect. </p><p>Scholarly works on the study of the belief in myths, and magic, have tried to quantify these beliefs into a basic list of 'laws'</p><p>Frazer's nineteenth century work, <u>The Golden Bough</u>,  and the writings from the turn of the century occult society of the <u>Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn</u>, are the most widely read.</p><p>There are several dozen so-called, 'laws of magic'; but for our purpose we need only consider the following four:</p><p>The Law of Infinite Universes.</p><p>The Law of Personal Universes.</p><p>The Law of True Falshoods.</p><p>The Law of Pragmatism.</p><p>Fantasy worlds only 'work' because of these laws.</p><p>An individual can, and does, create within their imagination, a 'presonal unviverse', which is one of the 'infinite universes which may exist.   </p><p>In the case of MMORPGs, this personal universe is created by the designers of the game. This universe is subject to it's own laws, (true lies), which, for the purposes of the game, are taken to be true (pragmatism).  It is the acceptance of these laws that allows us to suspend disbelief, and immerse ourselves into a fantasy world.</p><p>We, as players, then create our own personal universes, (in the form of background for our characters, beliefs, associations, etc.), within the designer's universe, (Norrath).</p><p>It is when the laws of True Falsehoods and Pragmatism are unknown, discarded, or are not universally known and accepted, that the game loses the aspect of a fantasy world, (personal universe), and becomes nothing more than a video game.</p><p>The whole time split debate has disrupted these laws in the sense that it has violated the Law of True Lies; giving the players TWO sets of equally valid, and sometimes contradictory 'truths' with which to assimilate and deal with.  It has streched the suspension of disbelief; not to the breaking point, but to it's limit.</p><p>The same may also be said of mixing different genres into an amalgarim, (science fiction with fantasy for instance).</p><p>They put an unecessary strain on the believability of the system.</p><p>To introduce more uncertainty (chaos) into the system could threaten to break it entirely as a believable, and knowable personal universe.</p><p>Though perhaps not impossible to achieve, I think it would be a dangerous and difficult task to accomplish.</p>

[teddyboy4]

It's a very interesting concept you threw out there.Personally, I wouldn't mind them reuniting the time lines, as long as they left out the abortions of lore that were the Omens of War and Gates of Discord xpacs. And considering that if they did reunite the time-lines it would be an all or nothing type deal I'd rather them leave it as it is....And as it is is that the official cut-off for EQ2 lore was PoP, BUT the devs may take bit and pieces of things that happened in EQ post-PoP and make them EQ2 canon. That's not too bad IMO, it may be something of a pain not knowing exactly what did and didn't happen, but all we have to do is go off of what is revealed to us in-game and we're good.

[Cusashorn]

<cite>Eandiil@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Personally, I wouldn't mind them reuniting the time lines, as long as they left out the abortions of lore that were the Omens of War and Gates of Discord xpacs.</blockquote>And Dragons of Norrath and Depths of Darkhollow and Prophecies of Ro and The Serpentspine Mountains, and Secrets of Faydwer and that Sea one....

[Zykdous]

<p>There's actually a game out there already that has all that lore already in place. It's called EverQuest.</p><p>EverQuest 2 provides an alternative to EverQuest's storyline, and I can see that being more profitable to SoE than making the story lines the same for the two games.</p>

[Rayle]

<p>wow guys thx for the great discussion! Mary you blow me away with your in-depth analysis, i never thought of it that much honestly, it was just the first question that popped into my mind when i saw the article and i figured id see what others thought of it.  I must say the thought of it still intrigues me, but i do agree that it would be considerably difficult to achieve without throwing whats left of norrath into a blender. If anyone else still wants to share their opinion im all ears, i very much enjoy these types of convo's.  </p><p>Zyk im not talking about the two timelines merging to form one, im saying what would happen if the two timelines collided, but continued moving in their own directions? im not saying your wrong, i totally agree that it would be more profitable for SoE to continue with two seperate storylines. All im saying is what if? </p>

[Cusashorn]

<cite>Rayleen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>wow guys thx for the great discussion! Mary you blow me away with your in-depth analysis, i never thought of it that much honestly, it was just the first question that popped into my mind when i saw the article and i figured id see what others thought of it.  I must say the thought of it still intrigues me, but i do agree that it would be considerably difficult to achieve without throwing whats left of norrath into a blender. If anyone else still wants to share their opinion im all ears, i very much enjoy these types of convo's.  </p><p>Zyk im not talking about the two timelines merging to form one, im saying what would happen if the two timelines collided, but continued moving in their own directions? im not saying your wrong, i totally agree that it would be more profitable for SoE to continue with two seperate storylines. All im saying is what if? </p></blockquote>Just having them collide is enough reason to make all the expansions in EQlive Post-POP Canon to EQ2 timeline, and vice versa. Nobody wants that. It would just make a complete mess of all the lore.

[Gukkor2]

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eandiil@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Personally, I wouldn't mind them reuniting the time lines, as long as they left out the abortions of lore that were the Omens of War and Gates of Discord xpacs.</blockquote>And Dragons of Norrath and Depths of Darkhollow and Prophecies of Ro and The Serpentspine Mountains, and Secrets of Faydwer and that Sea one....</blockquote>Please, Secrets of Faydwer hasn't even come out yet.  And personally, I found the lore of most of those expansions quite compelling.  What specifically about them turned you off?

[IrishWonder]

<p>VERY well put Mary.</p><p>Now can Sony PLEASE stop putting in death animations for mobs that are returning in another expansion? It violates my personal universe <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Cusashorn]

<cite>Gukkor2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eandiil@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Personally, I wouldn't mind them reuniting the time lines, as long as they left out the abortions of lore that were the Omens of War and Gates of Discord xpacs.</blockquote>And Dragons of Norrath and Depths of Darkhollow and Prophecies of Ro and The Serpentspine Mountains, and Secrets of Faydwer and that Sea one....</blockquote>Please, Secrets of Faydwer hasn't even come out yet.  And personally, I found the lore of most of those expansions quite compelling.  What specifically about them turned you off?</blockquote>The fact that they came out after EQ2.

[Mary the Prophetess]

<p>I have been pondering this long and hard since Rayleen posed the question.  </p><p>It occurs to me that I have made a lot of assumptions in voicing my opposition to such an occurance.  Perhaps I need to examine this a bit more critically</p><p>How much of the lore from EQ Live, (post time split), is actually *contradictory* to the lore in EQ2 (and vice versa), and how much is actually *reinforcing*?</p><p>The lore seems to be tangled around Mayong and the cutting off of the Gods and the Planes primarily, but most of the other changes between the games occured during the 500 years that separate them, and do not necessarily negate either game's lore.</p><p>What issues, (specifically), would be incompatible with each other?</p><p>I stopped playing EQ Live when EQ2 launched, so I am not really all that familiar with the lore since then.</p><p>If the contradictions are few or of minor significance, then their lines might be able to cross whithout a major impact.  Indeed, if they are mutually supporting, they could actually *strengthen* the sense of continuity and reinforce the immersive nature of Norrath.  </p><p>However, if the contradictions are many, or of major import, then a cross over could potentially throw the lore of both games into a tail spin.</p><p>So I ask:</p><p>What are the specific lore contradictions, and what is their significance?</p>

[troodon]

<p>Well, in the last expansion they had the Combine, the Shissar, and the Prexus all doing fine and dandy in an undersea kingdom off of the coasts of Antonica and Velious (the Buried Sea, basically south of the Feerrott).</p><p>In the coming expansion Meldrath has a flying fortress and is trying to take over Ak'Anon, meanwhile Kerafyrm returns to Faydwer from hiding and is hoping to "end the world".</p><p>Speaking for myself, I'd rather keep all of that out of EQ2 history.</p>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<p>Does any of that, (other than the presence of Prexus), contradict EQ2 lore?  Where is the buried Sea now in EQ2?--the Rending took care of it.</p><p>My point:  Can the lore be reconciled or not?</p><p><i>[Note that I am playing Devil's Advocate here.  I personally think that the continued presence of the Gods after they had all (supposedly) decided to go somewhere and sulk, is a pretty big hurdle to explain away.]</i></p><p>Still, we should try to be objective;  do those examples contradict EQ2 lore, or does the passage of 500 years, along with the Rending and Shattering, allow for it? </p>

[troodon]

<p>Hmm, I don't think so.</p><p>By the way, I meant the Kedge (accidently called them the Prexus).  </p>

[Cusashorn]

<cite>troodon wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hmm, I don't think so.</p><p>By the way, I meant the Kedge (accidently called them the Prexus).  </p></blockquote>hehe darn you. You got my hopes up and made me search illia's bestiary for Prexus actually appearing in the game, just to see what the designers would have done with him.

[troodon]

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>troodon wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hmm, I don't think so.</p><p>By the way, I meant the Kedge (accidently called them the Prexus).  </p></blockquote>hehe darn you. You got my hopes up and made me search illia's bestiary for Prexus actually appearing in the game, just to see what the designers would have done with him.</blockquote><p>Yeah, sorry for that.</p><p>But speaking of gods coming back, in Prophecy of Ro there were several deities (Tunare, Druzil Ro, and Karana according to Allakhazam) involved with sending players back in time in order to fight Mistmoore the god, somehow.  Not sure how the whole expansion went but that was one part of it.</p>

[Gukkor2]

In EQ1, the gods end up coming back prematurely due to mortals screwing up and accidentally helping Mistmoore ascend to godhood.  He proceeds to start making a mess of things in the planes (corrupting the Plane of Music, invading the Plane of Sun and thus weakening Norrath's sun, etc., etc.), and the gods basically demand that the mortals fix the problem they made by doing what they do best: killing things.  Despite this, most of the EQ1 gods still aren't "on speaking terms" with mortals; as far as I'm aware, only Druzzil Ro has willingly made direct contact with mortals since the gods decided to leave.  Besides that, any peaceful communication between the two parties been through indirect means.