Competing against cheaters as a crafter :(

[FluffyGoat]

In order to make decent money as a crafter you have to stock just about every item your profession can make, that means, buying all rare resources for every tier and making every item or scroll.  This in itself isn't too big of a task.  The problem is the broker and undercuting wars.  If you were to stock every item you can make on the broker in order to make any sales you have to be the lowest price.  Because so many other people you are competing against, you almost have to check 4 times a day for each and every item you're selling so that it is the lowest price.  Now imagine having an inventory of hundreds and hunreds of items and have to search EACH item manually to see what the lowest price is at that given time so you can sell it.  Now imagine if you have mutliple crafters doing this.  Most of your day is going to be spent trying to be the lowest price searching on the broker then you would be crafting.This is where the cheaters are so easily able to get all the sales, because they use their bot programs to automatically undercut people on the broker.  Which means they can spend much much more time crafting.  Something has to change, let us legit players auto match the lowest price (set your limit though) so we can also compete in sales.

[Cusashorn]

<cite>FluffyGoat wrote:</cite><blockquote>Something has to change, let us legit players auto match the lowest price (set your limit though) so we can also compete in sales.</blockquote>If you just gave players the ability to set thier limit, then how is that solving the problem you present? Botters would just set the limit lower than yours.

[melaine_dvarvensplitter]

<cite>FluffyGoat wrote:</cite><blockquote>In order to make decent money as a crafter you have to stock just about every item your profession can make, that means, buying all rare resources for every tier and making every item or scroll.  This in itself isn't too big of a task.  The problem is the broker and undercuting wars.  If you were to stock every item you can make on the broker in order to make any sales you have to be the lowest price.  Because so many other people you are competing against, you almost have to check 4 times a day for each and every item you're selling so that it is the lowest price.  Now imagine having an inventory of hundreds and hunreds of items and have to search EACH item manually to see what the lowest price is at that given time so you can sell it.  Now imagine if you have mutliple crafters doing this.  Most of your day is going to be spent trying to be the lowest price searching on the broker then you would be crafting.This is where the cheaters are so easily able to get all the sales, because they use their bot programs to automatically undercut people on the broker.  Which means they can spend much much more time crafting.  Something has to change, let us legit players auto match the lowest price (set your limit though) so we can also compete in sales.</blockquote>I check and reprice my broker 5-12 times a day. Does that make me a cheater???? At this time I have the time to check and reprice as needed. To do a blanket statement like this: This is where the cheaters are so easily able to get all the sales, because they use their bot programs to automatically undercut people on the broker. , is rather incorrect. When I didn't have the time like I do now I was still able to reprice 3-5 times a day. I was fortunate enough to live close enough to my work and had a hour lunch. Now are there some that are using bot programs and doing this .. most likely but all we can do is /petition or /report our suspicions and let SoE handle it. Just my 2cp. *Edited for some grammar issues*

[Tae]

If they added a "Buy" order on the broker all this would be fixed. Let people ask on the broker what they want, and then crafters can make it for them.

[Valena]

<p>I'm sorry but I don't agree with you at all. I'm a 70 Sage who has sold over 1500p worth of stuff on the Broker and I don't reprice more than once every few days. I've often sold stuff when I'm not the cheapest and I think that's because I do tend to stock multiple spells and people can come and buy all they need from one location. I've also made sure that my house is in an accessable area, not in the multi-room hellholes like Fish's in QH.</p><p>Ultimately undercutting is not worth the time or effort. On Splitpaw (and I'm sure elsewhere) we recently had a market crash due to the multitude of available rares thanks to the harvesting change and spells started to be sold for less than I'd paid for the rares to make them. I decided to ride it out and not adjust my prices and now the market is almost back to nomal I'm selling again. </p><p>Occationally though you just have to take a break. I used to make good money on T6 spells until one plat farmer decided to make spells with the stuff he'd harvested. At one point he had almost 30 pages on the Broker filled with spells at prices that I couldn't buy rares for. He's since been banned and the T6 market isn't too bad again.</p>

[Belaythien]

Is there any way to tell whether a player is cheating by using a bot to automatically undercut prices and restock his wares?There's one player on my server who always has exactly one of every item on the broker and he is never out of them. Whenever I adjust my prices he undercuts in the next 15-45 minutes. I could see somebody doing this for some time but he has been doing it for weeks now.As far as undercutting is concerned, don't do it yourself. Just put your price at the same level as existing ones. This way people feel less obliged to undercut you even further.

[Maldrick]

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If they added a "Buy" order on the broker all this would be fixed. Let people ask on the broker what they want, and then crafters can make it for them.</blockquote>That would absolutely rule.

[Gromph]

<cite>FluffyGoat wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is where the cheaters are so easily able to get all the sales, because they use their bot programs to automatically undercut people on the broker.  Which means they can spend much much more time crafting.  Something has to change, let us legit players auto match the lowest price (set your limit though) so we can also compete in sales.</blockquote><p>Whenever at least two 'botters' is selling the same item they would quickly end up at 2c or at some assigned lower limit. So they would either sell at a loss (which is not sustainable) or sell at some acceptable price level still giving a minimal profit (which is more probable). That acceptable level is perhaps a very reasonable price level, where one would expect a free market to end up at. I don't see this as a problem for the gameplay (but it could of course be an EULA violation).</p><p>I for one am astonished over the unreasonably high prices I can see (and sell for) at the broker. And that applies to both handcrafted and in particular mastercrafted stuff.</p><p>There is something unhealty with the economy when I can buy mats at the broker for 16g spend 1 min and then sell an ad3 for 90g. A more reasonable price given the time it takes would be 16g 50s (+20% commission).One handcrafted item I regularly sell for 5g have a mat cost of around 20s at the broker. My competition allow me this high profit per minute by setting even higher prices (meaning they don't sell and I get the money). I find this completely insane.</p>

[Valena]

<cite>Gromph wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>There is something unhealty with the economy when I can buy mats at the broker for 16g spend 1 min and then sell an ad3 for 90g. A more reasonable price given the time it takes would be 16g 50s (+20% commission).</p></blockquote><p>Only the desperate, rich or isolated would pay 90g when the rares are 16g. Most likely they would buy the rares and contact a friendly tradeskiller to make it for them. I'm always getting tells from people who want stuff making when I'm on my Sage.</p><p>Your "reasonable" profit listed above is far from reasonable for a number of reasons:</p><p>1: If I'm putting 50+ spells on the broker hoping that someone will buy them then I'm taking a massive gamble with my money that they will actually sell in a reasonable time frame. Expecting me to invest tons of cash for a measly 3% return isn't very realistic.</p><p>2: It took me a lot of cash and time to get to level 70, why should I not recoup some of the costs of my recipe books and raws on each spell I sell?</p><p>3: You assume that you are the only one selling to get that margin. I can almost guarantee you that at least one other person will move in and undercut you and still make a profit.</p><p> I'm actually one of the cheapest Sages on my server and do try to keep my prices reasonable. At the moment there are quite a few others selling many T6-T7 spells and the simple laws of supply and demand keep prices down.</p>

[Gromph]

<cite>Valena@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Only the desperate, rich or isolated would pay 90g when the rares are 16g.</p></blockquote>Well, I have the lowest prices, and that without hesitation, but still with good margin.<cite>Valena@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Most likely they would buy the rares and contact a friendly tradeskiller to make it for them. I'm always getting tells from people who want stuff making when I'm on my Sage.</p></blockquote>Sounds horrible with all the tells. Fortunately that has not happened to me. But this is probably the reason for the high broker prices. Too much of the economy outside the broker.<cite>Valena@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Expecting me to invest tons of cash for a measly 3% return isn't very realistic.</p></blockquote>You may feel that way, but there are not too many ways to earn money on money in EQ2. That is net income after inflation and taxes, so its not too bad. When skill-up is involved people may accept negative return, since the skill up has a value. That is reality for some handcrafted items. There is really nothing stated that crafting should be a money generator.<cite>Valena@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>2: It took me a lot of cash and time to get to level 70, why should I not recoup some of the costs of my recipe books and raws on each spell I sell?</p></blockquote>That is an often iterated phrase in order to motivate a high price. The customer really don't care, but it can be used in haggling of course.<cite>Valena@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>3: You assume that you are the only one selling to get that margin. I can almost guarantee you that at least one other person will move in and undercut you and still make a profit.</p></blockquote>I am not sure what you are aiming at here. My examples was simplified (but autentic). Mats on the broker varies in price (sometimes rather much, and I tend to buy in the lower range). In general, people sometimes undercut me. I don't have lower prices than necessary. When that happens I just lower my prices. No problem with that for the very high margin stuff, since I still have higher than reasonable margin.<cite>Valena@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm actually one of the cheapest Sages on my server and do try to keep my prices reasonable. At the moment there are quite a few others selling many T6-T7 spells and the simple laws of supply and demand keep prices down.</p></blockquote>When I reach T6 you will meet additional competition <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Chondrichtheyia]

Undercutting is fine and business-wise, it is only reasonable to always try and get that slight edge over your competition. And since we can't really provide better services (as an Adept III scroll will always be an Adept III scroll), we have to undercut to make that sale.What really irks me though, is when people don't undercut in a logical manner. I mean, what kind of [Removed for Content] do you have to be to sell something for about 30g if the current lowest price is 95g? That's just stupidly insane - especially if that rare to make said scroll would be currently running on the broker for 35-40g! Makes no sense! I can see undercutting that 95g price line to, say, 90-92g, but anything LOWER than the actual mats to make it is just lunacy. It also really bugs me when people see stuff on the broker for LESS than what they'd get from the vendor. What in the nine hells are they thinking?!?

[Lilj]

<cite>Chondrichtheyia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Undercutting is fine and business-wise, it is only reasonable to always try and get that slight edge over your competition. And since we can't really provide better services (as an Adept III scroll will always be an Adept III scroll), we have to undercut to make that sale.What really irks me though, is when people don't undercut in a logical manner. I mean, what kind of [Removed for Content] do you have to be to sell something for about 30g if the current lowest price is 95g? That's just stupidly insane - especially if that rare to make said scroll would be currently running on the broker for 35-40g! Makes no sense! I can see undercutting that 95g price line to, say, 90-92g, but anything LOWER than the actual mats to make it is just lunacy. It also really bugs me when people see stuff on the broker for LESS than what they'd get from the vendor. What in the nine hells are they thinking?!?</blockquote>Well, the listed vendor price you see on the broker is not always true.I sometimes check the minimum price the game claims I can get and I can't find a vendor that will actually pay me that much. So if the broker window claims I can sell this item for 64s, but the vendor will only give me 52s, I could put it up for 60s and still make a profit (made up numbers). But to you it would look like I was selling below vendor price.I normally use the wholesaler in the tradeskill instance to check prices, they should give a good enough price as far as I know unless something has changed.Edit: read another thread where this is explained <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=380748�" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...48�</a><cite></cite>

[Kenazeer]

<cite>Chondrichtheyia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Undercutting is fine and business-wise, it is only reasonable to always try and get that slight edge over your competition. And since we can't really provide better services (as an Adept III scroll will always be an Adept III scroll), we have to undercut to make that sale.What really irks me though, is when people don't undercut in a logical manner. I mean, what kind of [Removed for Content] do you have to be to sell something for about 30g if the current lowest price is 95g? That's just stupidly insane - especially if that rare to make said scroll would be currently running on the broker for 35-40g! Makes no sense! I can see undercutting that 95g price line to, say, 90-92g, but anything LOWER than the actual mats to make it is just lunacy. It also really bugs me when people see stuff on the broker for LESS than what they'd get from the vendor. What in the nine hells are they thinking?!?</blockquote><p>I think for adept 3s in particular you see this to some degree because people are making them for expereince and want to get their money back.</p><p>Another thing to keep in mind is that what you are seeing on the broker is the prices that have not sold, not the ones that have. Using the example several posts up, and also the way I would personally do things, is that if the rare sold for 16 gold and I could make it for 2 or 3 gold in fuel, then I would price at 35-40 gold all day long, even if the next highest price was 90 gold. I tend to maximize profit through volume, not per unit. Plus, if I put soemthing up and it sells in a flash, for what I consider to be a healthy profit, the appearence of a "bargain" is maintained for the next time I put one up. If I were to try to get in a 5 gp undercut war then I may end up getting 45-50 gold, but everyone elses prices are now lower, so the next time I put something up it isn't as much of a "bargain." Think of it this way, what does it mean about the true "value" of that item if you are seeing that same adept 3 on the broker for 30 gold for a couple days? While 30 gold may seem like a huge undercut to 90, if it isn't gobbled up pretty quickly then it is probably closer to what the market can bear tha 90 gold pieces. When I price stuff the market determines what I charge, not other sellers.</p>

[Thunderthyze]

<cite>FluffyGoat wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because so many other people you are competing against, you almost have to check 4 times a day for each and every item you're selling so that it is the lowest price.</blockquote><p>Surely though you are making the "problem" worse by lowering your own prices, albeit only 4 times a day?</p><p>If prices drop too low though presumably you will take things off sale or buy up the surplus and resell?</p><p>This is not a problem.....this is economics. Get over it.</p>

[Thunderthyze]

<cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, the listed vendor price you see on the broker is not always true.I sometimes check the minimum price the game claims I can get and I can't find a vendor that will actually pay me that much.</blockquote>I think you will find that the price quoted is that obtained from "un" distressed merchants. Otherwise most other merchants pay the same nowadays.

[Treggar]

If you're concerned about people undercutting you for less than you pay for the rare, you're probably not factoring in the dusts you get as a by-product. On guk there was a time when you could buy moonstones for under 40g, make an adept 3, and sell the 2 dusts for 20-25g each. It doesn't really matter what you sell the spell for then, you've already made your 4g profit over the rare which has covered fuels.

[Belaythien]

When looking at "high prices" you also have to consider that a crafter has to buy rares and hope people will buy his products. A crafter has very high expenses crafting rare items. This is especially true for transmuters. Raw materials for legendary and fabled adornments are very expensive. If you would only add a few gold like some of you are suggesting, you would reduce the variety of the market.Imagine a crafter that has to spend 8 plat to make a fabled adornment. If you make a less popular adornment, it may happen that you won't sell it for a long time, if at all. If he would just get 10-20g per adornment as profit you would need to sell over 50 adornments just to compensate this loss. As a result nobody will craft anything but the top adornments (or whatever else he's crafting, this applies to every trade) which he'll be sure to sell.Essentially those constant undercutters are ruining the market in the long run, as they scare of crafters that provide variety and service. A cheap bot crafter may give you a few items but he's forcing you to solicit a lot of crafters in person because they gave up selling things on the broker <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Tremelle]

Your not being undercut by bots, just other crafter, the fact is many crafter once they make an item and put it on the broker they listed for lower or close to lower then the next guy. It just so happens this makes sales go faster. Also keep in mind that you need to know your market, this is very important if your selling an adept 3 for 90g, which frankly is unreasonable, it very unlikely you will sell it if the master is a plat and the adepts 1 are5-10g, no offense.

[Kenazeer]

<cite>Belaythien wrote:</cite><blockquote>When looking at "high prices" you also have to consider that a crafter has to buy rares and hope people will buy his products. </blockquote>There are crafters that provide their own raw materials. They shouldn't feel compelled to keep prices high because another crafter doesn't. They will factor in their own "oppurtunity cost" and price accordingly.

[StormCinder]

<p>Have to agree with some of the others in the thread.  Not logical that there are bots that simply undercut the lowest price, else everything would be for sale for 2cp as the bots battle each other for lowest price.</p><p>I've been one of the "stupid" people who have put stuff on broker at sig discount to lowest price.  If I picked up an AD and I either need 30gp right away, or that's what it's worth to me, then why do I have to let the people who list at 65gp set my price?</p><p>I always set my price equal to the lowest price on the broker.  My vet reward sales display allows me to undercut the broker commission, so I can still come in below lowest retail.</p><p>Heck, I've been known to randomly email stuff to players for the fun of it?  Is that "cheating" too?  I mean those people are getting stuff FOR FREE!!  That's REALLY undercutting YOUR pricing.  I should be in jail.  LOL</p><p>SC</p>

[Catseyes]

there is undercuting and undercuting.  There are sellers who undercut just a bit to sell more, and there are sellers who want to really break the market.   When i want to compete, i dont undercut more than 10 % for the price. If an item sell for 1 plat i wont undercut to 50 G just to be sure to sell.  Undercuting is pushing to more undercuting.   I just adjust my price to the lower one. Ppl doesnt understant another rule of market, as long you cut the price,  customers can wait for the lower they want. If everyone sell at same price, or slowly adjust to a bottom, customers wont have choice to buy lower and they buy one of the items. I have even seen ppl so dumbly undercuting, that they sell less than a vendor accept.  (may be it was before the red message saying this to you) . At a certain point, undercutin harm all the vendors coz the item loose too many of its worth.

[Tremelle]

<cite>Catseyes wrote:</cite><blockquote>there is undercuting and undercuting.  There are sellers who undercut just a bit to sell more, and there are sellers who want to really break the market.   When i want to compete, i dont undercut more than 10 % for the price. If an item sell for 1 plat i wont undercut to 50 G just to be sure to sell.  Undercuting is pushing to more undercuting.   I just adjust my price to the lower one. Ppl doesnt understant another rule of market, as long you cut the price,  customers can wait for the lower they want. If everyone sell at same price, or slowly adjust to a bottom, customers wont have choice to buy lower and they buy one of the items. I have even seen ppl so dumbly undercuting, that they sell less than a vendor accept.  (may be it was before the red message saying this to you) . At a certain point, undercutin harm all the vendors coz the item loose too many of its worth.</blockquote>Yep I have seen people do this too, the vendor will aways give you fuel cost for a crafted item, this means people that are selling that low are loosing money. This also means that anyone that sells for under fuel cost isn't pay attention to such costs. My view is if something is selling at such a low point I will either sell it to a vendor since I harvest all my own mats or if it is food, give it to one of my other toons to use.

[StormCinder]

<cite>Catseyes wrote:</cite><blockquote>there is undercuting and undercuting.  There are sellers who undercut just a bit to sell more, and there are sellers who want to really break the market.   When i want to compete, i dont undercut more than 10 % for the price. If an item sell for 1 plat i wont undercut to 50 G just to be sure to sell.  Undercuting is pushing to more undercuting.   I just adjust my price to the lower one. <span style="color: #ffff00;">Ppl doesnt understant another rule of market, as long you cut the price,  customers can wait for the lower they want. If everyone sell at same price, or slowly adjust to a bottom, customers wont have choice to buy lower and they buy one of the items.</span> I have even seen ppl so dumbly undercuting, that they sell less than a vendor accept.  (may be it was before the red message saying this to you) . At a certain point, undercutin harm all the vendors coz the item loose too many of its worth.</blockquote><p>If I understand this paragraph, you are saying that as long as the sellers work together, they can keep the prices high in order to get a "good price" for their items.  I believe that "rule" is called "price-fixing" and is usually against the rules in a free market.</p><p>I'm beginning to wonder about the title of the thread...who are the "cheaters?"  Those that want to be able to price their items wherever they want, or those that want a coordinated effort by sellers to keep prices artificially high?</p><p>SC</p>

[rightgaurd]

If s o e knows some pep r running bots just get on to s o e and se if they want ban them from the game that should improve things a bit

[Talz]

<cite>FluffyGoat wrote:</cite><blockquote>In order to make decent money as a crafter you have to stock just about every item your profession can make, that means, buying all rare resources for every tier and making every item or scroll.  This in itself isn't too big of a task.  The problem is the broker and undercuting wars.  If you were to stock every item you can make on the broker in order to make any sales you have to be the lowest price.  Because so many other people you are competing against, you almost have to check 4 times a day for each and every item you're selling so that it is the lowest price.  Now imagine having an inventory of hundreds and hunreds of items and have to search EACH item manually to see what the lowest price is at that given time so you can sell it.  Now imagine if you have mutliple crafters doing this.  Most of your day is going to be spent trying to be the lowest price searching on the broker then you would be crafting.This is where the cheaters are so easily able to get all the sales, because they use their bot programs to automatically undercut people on the broker.  Which means they can spend much much more time crafting.  Something has to change, let us legit players auto match the lowest price (set your limit though) so we can also compete in sales.</blockquote>Don't be Wal-Mart.  Problem solved.Look for a market with a gap.  Fill that gap.Wal-Mart doesn't do well because they're smart.  They do well because they have the ability to flood out the competition.  If that's your style then it's going to be a lot of work.

[verukte76]

WAA!! Cry more noob. I will undercut everyone and sell my items. If you do not like it to bad. I harvest my rares and craft my gear, it cost me only the fuel to create a item.If you do not like my lowly priced item, you can buy it and mark it up.If the price of something gets low enough I'll buy it and sell it to the vendor for a profit.

[Soldancer]

<cite>FluffyGoat wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is where the cheaters are so easily able to get all the sales, because they use their bot programs to automatically undercut people on the broker.</blockquote> How should that work? AFAIK there is no way to dump broker info into a file (what would be necessary for a bot program)

[mellowknees72]

<cite>Maldrick wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If they added a "Buy" order on the broker all this would be fixed. Let people ask on the broker what they want, and then crafters can make it for them.</blockquote>That would absolutely rule.</blockquote><p>/AGREE 100% <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="26" height="21" /></p><p>I've suggested before that although the current consignment system is really nice, it doesn't help those of us with extremely limited playtime.  If there were some way that a player could place an order for something and offer a price, or even a price and a component, and then crafters could snag up workorders for the ordered items and fill the order....wow...I would be one heck of a happy adventurer, and I bet crafters would be pretty stoked about it, too.</p>

[Tremelle]

Honestly I don't think there is a bot program that can do this, it would have to some how be able to read the prices first off, which cannot be selected. Second it would have to refresh the broker window, something that requires mouse movement. And lastly it would have to select each item in your own store just to be able to check them, which also requires mouse movement. I think you are way over estimating what a bot can do. Your not being under cut by bot, you are being under cut by people.

[Soldancer]

<cite>Fusegu@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly I don't think there is a bot program that can do this, it would have to some how be able to read the prices first off, which cannot be selected. Second it would have to refresh the broker window, something that requires mouse movement. And lastly it would have to select each item in your own store just to be able to check them, which also requires mouse movement. I think you are way over estimating what a bot can do. Your not being under cut by bot, you are being under cut by people.</blockquote> This is what I think too. Such a bot program would require a complex image recognition technology and the automation software would be also very complex - a software monster which would require a big team to develop. I do not say it's impossible but it's simply improbable that someone develops such a software only to make some virtual plats in a MMORG.

[mellowknees72]

<cite>Soldancer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fusegu@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly I don't think there is a bot program that can do this, it would have to some how be able to read the prices first off, which cannot be selected. Second it would have to refresh the broker window, something that requires mouse movement. And lastly it would have to select each item in your own store just to be able to check them, which also requires mouse movement. I think you are way over estimating what a bot can do. Your not being under cut by bot, you are being under cut by people.</blockquote>This is what I think too. Such a bot program would require a complex image recognition technology and the automation software would be also very complex - a software monster which would require a big team to develop. I do not say it's impossible but it's simply improbable that someone develops such a software only to make some virtual plats in a MMORG.</blockquote><p>I would have to agree with this as well.</p><p>There ARE, indeed, players who stand at the broker for HOURS on end checking prices.  I've seen them.  I've done it (well, not for HOURS, but for long periods of time).  There are people who "play the market" and buy items at low prices and then re-sell them for higher prices.  Happens ALL the time. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[tikasa]

<cite>Pipes@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soldancer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fusegu@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly I don't think there is a bot program that can do this, it would have to some how be able to read the prices first off, which cannot be selected. Second it would have to refresh the broker window, something that requires mouse movement. And lastly it would have to select each item in your own store just to be able to check them, which also requires mouse movement. I think you are way over estimating what a bot can do. Your not being under cut by bot, you are being under cut by people.</blockquote>This is what I think too. Such a bot program would require a complex image recognition technology and the automation software would be also very complex - a software monster which would require a big team to develop. I do not say it's impossible but it's simply improbable that someone develops such a software only to make some virtual plats in a MMORG.</blockquote><p>I would have to agree with this as well.</p><p>There ARE, indeed, players who stand at the broker for HOURS on end checking prices.  I've seen them.  I've done it (well, not for HOURS, but for long periods of time).  There are people who "play the market" and buy items at low prices and then re-sell them for higher prices.  Happens ALL the time. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>Look up macrocrafters.   They have a working brokerbot that works that people have been using alot.   Sometimes they will slip up when setting up and emit the set up strings into chat....

[FluffyGoat]

"<span class="postbody">Honestly I don't think there is a bot program that can do this, it would have to some how be able to read the prices first off, which cannot be selected. Second it would have to refresh the broker window, something that requires mouse movement. And lastly it would have to select each item in your own store just to be able to check them, which also requires mouse movement. I think you are way over estimating what a bot can do. Your not being under cut by bot, you are being under cut by people."So wrong...so wrong...</span>

[liveja]

<cite>Catseyes wrote:</cite><blockquote>If everyone sell at same price, or slowly adjust to a bottom, customers wont have choice to buy lower and they buy one of the items.</blockquote><p>Otherwise known as "price fixing" <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>I will undercut people *ruthlessly*, if I feel like it. I couldn't care less about price stability.</p>

[Valena]

<p>I have at times dramatically undercut people as some ask for silly prices.</p><p> An example would be when Acrylia cost 70g and one seller was the only one with a certain Ad3 on sale at 2p40g. I was perfectly happy to price mine at 1p10g with the dusts (at that time) selling for 20g each. For some strange reason I sold a lot before the other guy caught on. As someone else said, I make money on volume not by ripoff pricing.</p>

[Nocifer Deathblade]

<p>It never bothers me if merchants trying to undercut me cuz I never looked at their prices to compete with my big  armor warehouse..</p><p>I only look at raw rare price and just a certain % markup and stay that way for long time. I was selling pretty good (over 1k plats from armors). Basically, if I sell my armor too fast than my time allows to make, I hike my price to find acceptable price range that finds my balance on my own preferred time spent at crafting or hunt.. If I find that I'm selling armor too slow, I just cut the price to bring the balance back. You get an idea.. I judge my sales via supply and demand instead of looking at undercutting or overcutting and it works very well for me..</p>

[StormCinder]

<cite>Pipes@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soldancer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fusegu@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly I don't think there is a bot program that can do this, it would have to some how be able to read the prices first off, which cannot be selected. Second it would have to refresh the broker window, something that requires mouse movement. And lastly it would have to select each item in your own store just to be able to check them, which also requires mouse movement. I think you are way over estimating what a bot can do. Your not being under cut by bot, you are being under cut by people.</blockquote>This is what I think too. Such a bot program would require a complex image recognition technology and the automation software would be also very complex - a software monster which would require a big team to develop. I do not say it's impossible but it's simply improbable that someone develops such a software only to make some virtual plats in a MMORG.</blockquote><p>I would have to agree with this as well.</p><p>There ARE, indeed, players who stand at the broker for HOURS on end checking prices.  I've seen them.  I've done it (well, not for HOURS, but for long periods of time).  There are people who "play the market" and buy items at low prices and then re-sell them for higher prices.  Happens ALL the time. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>There are at least two such bot programs out there in use.

[Kenban]

<cite>Soldancer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fusegu@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly I don't think there is a bot program that can do this, it would have to some how be able to read the prices first off, which cannot be selected. Second it would have to refresh the broker window, something that requires mouse movement. And lastly it would have to select each item in your own store just to be able to check them, which also requires mouse movement. I think you are way over estimating what a bot can do. Your not being under cut by bot, you are being under cut by people.</blockquote>This is what I think too. Such a bot program would require a complex image recognition technology and the automation software would be also very complex - a software monster which would require a big team to develop. I do not say it's impossible but it's simply improbable that someone develops such a software only to make some virtual plats in a MMORG.</blockquote>Hate to say it thats not how the bot programs work.  They are much more tightly linked to EQ2 then that and are reading the memory directly.  Then they use EQ2's own functions to inject there commands directly into the game.  There would be no image recognition needed.  Having said that a bot to do what is being described is possible but would be VERY hard to get right.  It would be very easy to screw it up and allow players to price them into a point where they sell items below the cost to make.  To my knowledge there are no bots that can do what has been described but it is possible.Oh and tikasa this is the first I have heard of Macrocrafter its interesting that their site claims to have sold 4,000 copies or 1% of the EQ2 userbase...

[Sunlei]

<cite>FluffyGoat wrote:</cite><blockquote>In order to make decent money as a crafter you have to stock just about every item your profession can make, that means, buying all rare resources for every tier and making every item or scroll.  This in itself isn't too big of a task.  The problem is the broker and undercuting wars.  If you were to stock every item you can make on the broker in order to make any sales you have to be the lowest price.  Because so many other people you are competing against, you almost have to check 4 times a day for each and every item you're selling so that it is the lowest price.  Now imagine having an inventory of hundreds and hunreds of items and have to search EACH item manually to see what the lowest price is at that given time so you can sell it.  Now imagine if you have mutliple crafters doing this.  Most of your day is going to be spent trying to be the lowest price searching on the broker then you would be crafting.This is where the cheaters are so easily able to get all the sales, because they use their bot programs to automatically undercut people on the broker.  Which means they can spend much much more time crafting.  Something has to change, let us legit players auto match the lowest price (set your limit though) so we can also compete in sales.</blockquote><p> How do you know it's a bot program? This could just be people nursing the broker as it takes a lot of nursing to get the sales. The broker selling game is a "game within the game" that a lot of people enjoy. </p><p>The broker- sales game almost reminds me of the USA gas stations when they have 4 stations at a crossroads of a street and each station is RE-setting their price a cent lower than the other each day <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Again how do you know this is a bot program? you should /petition those players you suspect and also turn-over any program you know of to soe devs so they can stop it from working on the broker.</p><p>I have not noticed anyone "instant changing price to the lowest", though I could have missed this.</p>