bad dps

[ZerkerDwarf]

<p>Somehow I fail to exploit our dps potential. </p><p>I am fully Doomrage fabled, jewellery also KoS fabled, Shadow Axe and Soulfire Gladius (unfortunately still legendary, sniff... don't find an EoF hardcore raidcom/guild, neither a one-way ticket for mayong), Buckler of the Howler, defensively adorned (agi, sta and devensive where possible, rest dps/haste). </p><p>I also have all masters (master II group taunt), 100 achievements (str 4-4-8, agi 4-8-8-8, int 4-1), in every cyclone 5 points including the endskill for taunts, berserk triggers 5 and 3 points.</p><p>When raid MTing in KoS I parse 1000ish zonewide. Soloing Poets Palace about 1100. I KNOW that is horribly bad! And I want to change that! But I don't know what to do. Don't know what I'm doing wrong. I am offensively stanced; defensively only the first few seconds of a named raidpull (if at all).</p><p>I think I am observing all the tactics. Exploiting autoattack by not spamming CAs without a pause. In Open Wounds mode no CAs at all. Always facing the enemy for autoattack. Alternating Destruction/Juggernaught and Open Wounds. Before pull I cast Destruction and Weapon Aegis if available. Using a macro of STR2 and "/autoattack 0" immediately followed by Stunning Howl (multiple encounter) or high dmg single attack. And all these things. When raid MTing, I usually have a templar, mystic, dirge, assassin, coercer/warden (according to situation) with me.</p><p>Once I parsed 2300 in Poets Palace solo. I don't know how I did it. Same tactics as usual, same equipment, same speed - so Destruction and Open Wounds aren't available in every fight.</p><p>Is there anything I miss? How can you exploit the full potential of the autoattacks? According to /weapon and your actual delay you can adjust the CAs. But haste and dps are alternating all the time; especially on a raid. And somehow looking at your char or the combat log isn't the ULTIMATA ratio - nevertheless often a CA destroys an autoattack although you are trying to alternate CA and auto.</p>

[YummiOger]

<p>Its simple, .. Your not Buckler Built therefore your missing +60% DOUBLE ATTACK.</p><p>and why not take Agil Final, Best Ability in that tree.</p>

[DasanW]

Yep.. Buckler spec. 

[ZerkerDwarf]

I have mixed up agi with sta. I am buckler specced 4-8-8-8.

[LygerT]

<p>is that horrible DPS? not really, its almost exactly what i do with the same gear, unfortunately you have been listening to the top geared zerks too much. you will notice some of the DPS numbers around here are a bit inflated or spike damage numbers.</p><p>only thing i see you failed to mention is strength, the main modifier in our base damage, if you only buff to 500 strength then you are still losing a bit of DPS potential. </p>

[Kaberu]

Yay! another fun post mired in a game mechanics sleight-of-hand!Berserkers do not parse anywhere near 2k zone-wide. They don't normally parse over 1k zone-wide unless they wait for their recycles before every fight or possibly if they are in the highest end, overly tweaked gear. Even a good combination of the two works as well!What <i><b>IS</b></i> true is that if a Dirge, Coercer, Inquisitor, etc... properly buffs a Berserker with hastes, DPS buffs, various procs and proc enhancers, recycle buffs, and so on... they can stack the berserkers parse so it reaches the 1k to 2k+ marks quite easily. Non-buckler specced Berserkers can also reach the 1.5k to 2k+ range with proper buff stacking. I've witnessed and experienced this myself enough times to realize that buff stacking is more the issue in raids than most Berserkers' in these forums usually attribute on a regular basis.As far as raids, it's more important to have overall DPS raised as opposed as your individual DPS. If swapping you into a spot to raise your DPS by 500 causes a scout to switch out of a 700 boost (as they have more to gain and lose from buff stacking)... well, you might look better personally, but you are hurting your raid as a whole. Just keep that in mind if you start chasing the 2k+ range.

[LygerT]

<p>when MTing obviously you want all the proccing DPS you can get as well as all the DPS/haste buffs as DPS generates hate. last trip through labs i was hitting encounters for up to 3k with all my spells refreshed but parsed zonewide around 1200, almost completely mastered with KoS fabled, shadow axe and str 448 sta 44882 wis 43 build. </p><p>high end DPS comes from not only procs off buffs but from yourself, if you look at most of the high end EoF gear there is alot of self proccing damage casual raiders are missing as well as haste, DPS, double attack(fabled set bonus) and crit % modifiers which all add up quite a bit in the end to your DPS which those people tend to carry here and seem to make standard DPS numbers out of where only about 5% of zerks actually do. you may get lucky and get a handful of nice buffs in raid but ^ has a good point that if you get all the buffs you are actually hurting the DPS of the raid as a whole unless it is evenly spread out. </p><p>to be quite honest, your DPS won't change much by adding a delay between CAs until you have the top end gear and procs i mentioned above, i have tested it day after day and noticed little change even with various builds. another misconception brought on by top tier raiders with high end gear where it does make more of a difference. i havent picked up the gladius yet to test it with but with 2.5 delay or faster weapons their change was very minimal. those formulas you see floating around assume you have no latency and are perfectly timing your delay and also assume that the SoE formulas are accurate, i got tired of my numbers flying all over the board with delays as your haste fluctuates so normally i just spam my big hits first and then toss in a delay on the weaker ones. </p>

[Schmalex23]

<cite>Kaberu wrote:</cite><blockquote>Berserkers do not parse anywhere near 2k zone-wide. They don't normally parse over 1k zone-wide unless they wait for their recycles before every fight or possibly if they are in the highest end, overly tweaked gear. Even a good combination of the two works as well!</blockquote>Uh, thats not true at all, i have an exorbent amount of ZW parses where im 2k+ and i know people with KoS gear that have a huge amount of 1800+.  I dont wait for Des/OW/Jug.  My group isnt "stacked."  All we really need is a dirge, the right weapon and AA, skill, and a brig to debuff.  Just because you cant figure out how to push the class doesnt mean its not possible with just vuli's.

[LygerT]

<p>not gonna call complete BS but i find it difficult to believe that somewhere i am missing 80% of my DPS by not pushing the buttons just right. enlighten us if you would, i have never seen any posts regarding the best possible DPS scenario for both tanking or offtanking even though i have tried every possible combination without those kind of results. </p><p>it does have alot to do with the raid setup, your buffs being put on you and how much the mob is being debuffed though as already said. all of which are partially out of our control. </p>

[konig]

 I've did 2k myself on a few ZW parses but normally its between 1.2-1.7k. All depends on your group set up, the strats you use on mobs, and the rest of the raid not slacking. First, you need a dirge plan and simple, you lose 500 or more dps without one. Inq and Ceo are also good for the DSP buff, Ill are great for the haste and if your lucky I.A., and the Assassins for there proc. As far as strats go. An example is some guilds joust AE mobs and other just heal though it. If your guild joust your losing DPS with all the running back and forth. If your guild try's to heal though it your DPS will stay on par with other fights. Finally on the rest of the raid slacking. If others arn't doing there part it can lead to longer fights or wipes. Normal longer fight's equal's lower DPS, wipes add more time to the ZW which lowers the DPS. Just a few thing to think about on why your DPS might be lower then some of the other Berserker's.

[Nembutal]

I haven't done 2k zone wide but I can get like 1500.

[Kage8]

Zone wide DPS also has a lot to do with what everyone else is doing. Your not ganna parse 2k+ if you dont have other good dps players with you.No one would ever do 2k+ dps on my guild raids lol.

[Schmalex23]

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>not gonna call complete BS but i find it difficult to believe that somewhere i am missing 80% of my DPS by not pushing the buttons just right. enlighten us if you would, i have never seen any posts regarding the best possible DPS scenario for both tanking or offtanking even though i have tried every possible combination without those kind of results. </p><p>it does have alot to do with the raid setup, your buffs being put on you and how much the mob is being debuffed though as already said. all of which are partially out of our control. </p></blockquote>Thats nice you can call bs but i have posted plenty of screenshots of my ZW parses as well as many other zerkers.  I also might be inclined to help you if you werent so rude about it.  If you really want to see... there are alot of them<a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/berserkers/8238-zerker-parses.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> here</a> and there are several on this board too if you search.  2k+ is very typical for me for ZW.You also havent tried looking very hard if you havent seen scenarious for best ca order, groups, etc.

[Schmalex23]

<cite>Kage848 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zone wide DPS also has a lot to do with what everyone else is doing. Your not ganna parse 2k+ if you dont have other good dps players with you.No one would ever do 2k+ dps on my guild raids lol.</blockquote>This is half true.  I can see where most people in xx guild are somewhat around the same skill and gear, so if the guild parses low because of gear or skill you would as well.  Atleast i think thats what you are trying to say.  But on that same token, when i go to pickup raids and i have a dirge as well as a brigand in the raid i maintain 2k+.

[Kaberu]

<cite>Skel@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaberu wrote:</cite><blockquote>Berserkers do not parse anywhere near 2k zone-wide. They don't normally parse over 1k zone-wide unless they wait for their recycles before every fight or possibly if they are in the highest end, overly tweaked gear. Even a good combination of the two works as well!</blockquote>Uh, thats not true at all, i have an exorbent amount of ZW parses where im 2k+ and i know people with KoS gear that have a huge amount of 1800+.  I dont wait for Des/OW/Jug.  My group isnt "stacked."  All we really need is a dirge, the right weapon and AA, skill, and a brig to debuff.  Just because you cant figure out how to push the class doesnt mean its not possible with just vuli's.</blockquote>How cute! Skel is trying to think again! /pushes_Skels_buttonsI said Berserkers don't parse that high, not a Berserker plus 5 of his friends or a Berserker plus 2 of his friends and certainly not a Berserker plus 23 of his friends. And just to be clear, I don't mean a bunch of Berserkers grouped together... I just mean Berserkers as a whole, but on their own in normal game play situations. If it's not in the nature of a Berserker to parse in the 2k plus range on a consistent basis, then it shouldn't be in the nature of a Berserker to question oneself if you can't reach that number when all other variables you can control (read: your character) are running smoothly. Yes, there are tips that make the process easier, just watch yourself if you blame the player when in all likelihood, he's doing everything right. I certainly hope I made that point with my first reply!I am also not using the term "stack" in the manner of "stack the deck"... I am referring to the stacking of buffs. So unless your group is not using any group or targeted buffs on you, you are stacked with buffs.Hmm, if I could draw at all, I'd make a nifty editorial cartoon to illustrate... maybe it'll work in text?<i>Oh oops, I forgot! You've played a whole gosh darn lot and have all sorts of nifty gear! Golly gee willickers! Shucks Mister Skel, can I help carry your ego with the rest of your guild or are they too busy padding your parse so you can fluff your plumage in these forums?</i>And thus concludes my text version of an editorial cartoon!/bow

[Slayer505]

<cite>Kaberu wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Skel@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaberu wrote:</cite><blockquote>Berserkers do not parse anywhere near 2k zone-wide. They don't normally parse over 1k zone-wide unless they wait for their recycles before every fight or possibly if they are in the highest end, overly tweaked gear. Even a good combination of the two works as well!</blockquote>Uh, thats not true at all, i have an exorbent amount of ZW parses where im 2k+ and i know people with KoS gear that have a huge amount of 1800+.  I dont wait for Des/OW/Jug.  My group isnt "stacked."  All we really need is a dirge, the right weapon and AA, skill, and a brig to debuff.  Just because you cant figure out how to push the class doesnt mean its not possible with just vuli's.</blockquote>How cute! Skel is trying to think again! /pushes_Skels_buttonsI said Berserkers don't parse that high, not a Berserker plus 5 of his friends or a Berserker plus 2 of his friends and certainly not a Berserker plus 23 of his friends. And just to be clear, I don't mean a bunch of Berserkers grouped together... I just mean Berserkers as a whole, but on their own in normal game play situations. If it's not in the nature of a Berserker to parse in the 2k plus range on a consistent basis, then it shouldn't be in the nature of a Berserker to question oneself if you can't reach that number when all other variables you can control (read: your character) are running smoothly. Yes, there are tips that make the process easier, just watch yourself if you blame the player when in all likelihood, he's doing everything right. I certainly hope I made that point with my first reply!I am also not using the term "stack" in the manner of "stack the deck"... I am referring to the stacking of buffs. So unless your group is not using any group or targeted buffs on you, you are stacked with buffs.Hmm, if I could draw at all, I'd make a nifty editorial cartoon to illustrate... maybe it'll work in text?<i>Oh oops, I forgot! You've played a whole gosh darn lot and have all sorts of nifty gear! Golly gee willickers! Shucks Mister Skel, can I help carry your ego with the rest of your guild or are they too busy padding your parse so you can fluff your plumage in these forums?</i>And thus concludes my text version of an editorial cartoon!/bow</blockquote>Umm... wow.  What exactly is your point?  If you check the original post he was asking about raid parses.  He did mention soloing in Poet's, but I'm pretty sure his question was regarding raiding since he says he only parses 1000ish zone wide in KOS zones while MT and is looking for ways to improve it.  I'm pretty sure when he's in a raid there's someone putting buffs on him if he's MT.  Who cares what you parse solo as long as you finish the zone?  I mean really?  And for the record I've also parsed 2k zone wide before, but most of the time it's like 1.5-1.8k because we have some really flakey dirges that don't like to show up for raids, and since I usually OT the MT gets the dirge.  As long as you have a good group set up and decent raid DPS it's not that hard.  There's no need to be a smart [Removed for Content].

[Kaberu]

The point, my dear Watson, is in the poster's first sentence:<span class="postbody"><i>"Somehow I fail to exploit our dps potential."</i>The I's have it, as they say... Amongst the 24 players within a raid, he held himself solely responsible in his opening statement.I tried to deflate that improper ideal by pointing out the limits of the Berserker class in regards to what the single player can do. Skel so masterfully (he sayest sarcastically) added back in all the players I was subtracting in order to make that point. That's all fine and dandy if the foundation of my point was not in what the Berserker is capable of on his own for his part of the raid.As they would say in mathematics... QEDI think that stands for Quails Eat Ducks, but I could be wrong. I certainly would never underestimate the conversation stopping power of a duck-eating quail! But if it would really stop a conversation... why am I still talking?And there is every reason to be a smart [Removed for Content]... the alternative is to be an elephant and an elephant never forgets. Frankly, my memory ain't exactly top quality, so I certainly am not up to par as far as those mnemonically-gifted pachyderms!Gosh darn it! I made another multi-layered joke, referencing multiple subjects relating to posts on here! Well... a bad joke is still a joke I suppose...</span><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><span class="postbody"> </span>

[YummiOger]

<cite>Kaberu wrote:</cite><blockquote>The point, my dear Watson, is in the poster's first sentence:<span class="postbody"><i>"Somehow I fail to exploit our dps potential."</i>The I's have it, as they say... Amongst the 24 players within a raid, he held himself solely responsible in his opening statement.I tried to deflate that improper ideal by pointing out the limits of the Berserker class in regards to what the single player can do. Skel so masterfully (he sayest sarcastically) added back in all the players I was subtracting in order to make that point. That's all fine and dandy if the foundation of my point was not in what the Berserker is capable of on his own for his part of the raid.As they would say in mathematics... QEDI think that stands for Quails Eat Ducks, but I could be wrong. I certainly would never underestimate the conversation stopping power of a duck-eating quail! But if it would really stop a conversation... <span style="color: #ff0000;"><b>why am I still talking?</b></span>And there is every reason to be a smart [I cannot control my vocabulary]... the alternative is to be an elephant and an elephant never forgets. Frankly, my memory ain't exactly top quality, so I certainly am not up to par as far as those mnemonically-gifted pachyderms!Gosh darn it! I made another multi-layered joke, referencing multiple subjects relating to posts on here! Well... a bad joke is still a joke I suppose...</span><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><span class="postbody"></span></blockquote><p>Yes i agree .. </p><p> In an average raid enviroment, not top zones and top geared, a buckler Zerker can easily pull 1200-1600 DPS with a Dirge + some other group buffs. Buffs on The Zerker is one of the key elements in a raid and proper De-buffs on the MOB. You can really tell a differance with 2 good Scouts cycling debuffs on an Epic. </p><p>Get good opening CA orders pre/post Pull and know what to use during the actual kill. Leaning on auto attack heavily is actually what u need to do dueing the majority of the time, dont crazy spam every thing u got, u may loose auto attack swings thru CA Vs. Weapon Delay.</p><p>Zerkers who are pulling 2K+ ZWs are  Very well equipted, most of the time. Mayong hammer, full EoF set, proc gear Ect. Also they have developed and refined their Combat Strat to when/where/how to CA/Autoattack to a great extent. </p><p>Your not doing so bad dood .. As long as ur out DPSing the Crusaders!! LOL <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Kage8]

<cite>Skel@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kage848 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zone wide DPS also has a lot to do with what everyone else is doing. Your not ganna parse 2k+ if you dont have other good dps players with you.No one would ever do 2k+ dps on my guild raids lol.</blockquote>This is half true.  I can see where most people in xx guild are somewhat around the same skill and gear, so if the guild parses low because of gear or skill you would as well.  Atleast i think thats what you are trying to say.  But on that same token, when i go to pickup raids and i have a dirge as well as a brigand in the raid i maintain 2k+.</blockquote>Thats kinda what I mean. But look at it this way. DPS = Damage per second. If others in your grp aren't doing nice damage the fight lasts longer. Thats means more seconds. The longer the fight lasts the lower your dps drops. If your in a raid of people doing 600-1k dps (Like my raids) then your not ganna do 2k+ period.

[LygerT]

<p>yet again people fail to actually read my posts, it has alot to do with buffs put on you, not just from yourself. </p><p>i would love for someone else to play my character and pick up an additional 600-800 DPS just to show me there is something i am doing wrong otherwise i will stick by the fact that there is people with adept 1s debuffing the mobs and not getting them in all of the time. this is the difference between a casual raid guild and a hardcore one is that you are not always getting master 1 buffs and the mobs are not getting master 1 debuffs and both of those you are not getting all of the time or at all.  i try to watch my spell list but you can't always notice when a spell falls off and does not get put back on. </p><p>my post merely said that the original poster likely is doing absolutely nothing wrong but his comrades are to blame in not playing their classes right and passing out buffs to the right people and also not debuffing the mobs fully and at all times. do the numbers he mentioned seem low? a little but not much, this is coming from an almost exactly the same equipped zerker with similar raiding formations where people do not have the best spells, the best gear or the best knowledge. </p><p>so again, if i am completely missing something where i can pull 800 DPS out of my own [I cannot control my vocabulary] otherwise i will have to continue to try and monitor the others in the raid and hope they know [I cannot control my vocabulary] they are doing and watch my spells like a hawk and kick the brig in the [I cannot control my vocabulary] and hope they are doing their job debuffing. </p><p>no, i do not expect to see any real tips around here, the ones i have found were nearly buried and so scattered it wasn't even funny. why would we have a resource to have berserkers better themselves after all? i mean we are the number #2 tank! with #2 support from ourselves! i feel like i'm in a dysfunctional family here, no stickies, no real good condensed tips just a bunch of garbled junk that gets so easily lost that after a while it has little bearing as time goes on. </p><p>so, to the OP all i suggest is you look at your raid and not yourself to see where that DPS is being lost, i guarantee most of it is there and not from you. </p><p>again, thanks alot for the real informational post!</p><p>yes... that was sarcasm. </p><p>i'm beginning to think the high end zerkers really don't even know much about what is carrying their DPS</p>

[Schmalex23]

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>no, i do not expect to see any real tips around here, the ones i have found were nearly buried and so scattered it wasn't even funny. why would we have a resource to have berserkers better themselves after all? i mean we are the number #2 tank! with #2 support from ourselves! i feel like i'm in a dysfunctional family here, no stickies, no real good condensed tips just a bunch of garbled junk that gets so easily lost that after a while it has little bearing as time goes on. </p></blockquote>Uh, there are tips all over this board, except you have to read thu all the 100+ posts of what should i do with my AA, can my zerker solo, and QQ we got nerfed.  Sorry that other people make threads instead of reading ones that answer the same question?

[Kaberu]

One of the most useful tips you could have regarding DPS in raids is to have your fellow raiders macro key abilities with alerting text. Brigs normally do this with their major debuff but I'm sure there are other abilities from other classes that would help focus DPS where it needs to be. We use to have all sorts of stickied posts with helpful information. Alas, the game has changed drastically since it's inception and even regarding the recent past, enough to make most useful information just wrong enough to need a revamp.Even in our near future, combat arts and spells are going to be consolidated, potentially changing the sequence and usefulness of each ability in combat. Duel wielding is going under a change that won't affect just dual wielders, it could disrupt the entire hierarchy of weapon-wielding preferences. What besides the most general or generic of information withstands the test of time in these ever-changing mechanics?And yes, I do have a questionable sense of humor (if it can be called that)... it is, however, <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=83029" target="_blank">nothing new</a>!Oh, and to be clear yet again... despite picking on him from time to time, Skel really is one of the best go-to guys for berserker info.

[MullenSkywatcher]

<p>OP,</p><p>   Raid DPS has a lot to do with your group makeup and weapon.  Our guild berserker (not MT) usually does about 1400 on the fights I bother to watch ACT with the hammer from mayong and a dirge in the group, but i've seen him spike much higher than that on a juggernauted open wounds fight obviously.  There are so many factors to your DPS that are not under your control (dirge) that I wouldnt worry about your dps.  There is only one judgement your guild needs to make on any raid fight, and that is, did you win?</p>

[LygerT]

<p>i understand no one has an obligation to be helpful but at the same time they should recognize that the information on this forum is so mangled up in a mess a search rarely gives much, it only bothers me when people make it seem like the information is right in front of your face where this forums search function is rather crappy, i just searched for a list of raid wide, group wide and single target useful buffs but found little, i guess its off to ask induviduals and make my own list(i already know which benefit zerks but forming raids with max potential is something else). </p><p>check virtually every other class, they have stickied discussions about various aspects of their roles. why can't we work together to actually make sure other zerkers out there know their class? do we have a moderator for this class board? is this microphone even on?</p>

[Schmalex23]

no mods... no attention from soe is even present on this board.

[Necodem]

Yeah we'll never get any attention from SoE...

[Triste-Lune]

<cite>Kaberu wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yay! another fun post mired in a game mechanics sleight-of-hand!Berserkers do not parse anywhere near 2k zone-wide. They don't normally parse over 1k zone-wide unless they wait for their recycles before every fight or possibly if they are in the highest end, overly tweaked gear. Even a good combination of the two works as well!What <i><b>IS</b></i> true is that if a Dirge, Coercer, Inquisitor, etc... properly buffs a Berserker with hastes, DPS buffs, various procs and proc enhancers, recycle buffs, and so on... they can stack the berserkers parse so it reaches the 1k to 2k+ marks quite easily. Non-buckler specced Berserkers can also reach the 1.5k to 2k+ range with proper buff stacking. I've witnessed and experienced this myself enough times to realize that buff stacking is more the issue in raids than most Berserkers' in these forums usually attribute on a regular basis.As far as raids, it's more important to have overall DPS raised as opposed as your individual DPS. If swapping you into a spot to raise your DPS by 500 causes a scout to switch out of a 700 boost (as they have more to gain and lose from buff stacking)... well, you might look better personally, but you are hurting your raid as a whole. Just keep that in mind if you start chasing the 2k+ range.</blockquote>if you cant get a 2K zonewide parse in innersanctum as a MTing berserker then you suck.<div>and no i dont need to be in a stacked group to reach those number. only ever had a dirgue templar defiler waden swash in order to reach those number.</div><div></div><div>before you start making assumption about what is possible and what isnt learn to play.</div>

[Hardain]

Kinda harsh reply, even tho he is wrong. But not everyone can do over 2k ZW in EoF zones, that doesn't mean you SUCK if you can't do that.

[lost]

Here is a parse of a 2k zw in fth up til treyloth/malkonis (add them in and it drops to about 1.6k).  The group was dirge, coercer, warden, defiler, templar.  The weapon I was using was soulfire gladius, and the dirge has his 3 set bonus.  I also have my 5 set bonus so demolish is more dps than it would be for someone in kos gear.  If I was to swap in kos gear for these slots and assume a kos geared dirge, I would be looking at ~50 dps blade chime, 26 dps crypts revenge, and probably 850 or 900 dps auto attack.  I'd say its safe to say that kos geared you could be hitting close to 1.8k (or close to 2k if you had an assassin's apply poison).  One of the biggest tricks is to learn the zones so that you aren't wasting open wounds/destruction on solo targets when there are multimob encounters next. If you look at my gear at <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=536252120" target="_blank">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=536252120</a> you can see I am not using any dps gear really (no buckler of the howler, no grim brimstone hammer, nothing that procs), so while my gear is better than most berserkers, none of it is overly inaccessible.<img src="http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/6536/2kzwtr1.png" border="0" alt="" />

[uux]

<cite>Kage848 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Thats kinda what I mean. But look at it this way. DPS = Damage per second. If others in your grp aren't doing nice damage the fight lasts longer. Thats means more seconds. The longer the fight lasts the lower your dps drops. If your in a raid of people doing 600-1k dps (Like my raids) then your not ganna do 2k+ period.</blockquote>This is a bit misleading.  The majority of our damage is consistent, so it doesn't matter how long the fight lasts.For example, let's compare you and me.  Say we both do 60,000 damage to some random trash mob.  However, let's say your raid killed the mob in 30s, and mine took 60s.  Yes, your dps would then parse 2x of what mine is.  The time isn't a trick.  You really did 2x the damage even though the total was the same.  You did the same amount of damage in half the time.  It has nothing to do with what other players parse.  Your dps would not have stopped had the duration increased another 30s.The only time a short duration helps is when spike damage occurs (Destruction/Open Wounds/Juggernaut).  Even then, sometimes longer fights can let you use those abilities more often in a zone.  So it only benefits the parse on a per fight basis, not a zonewide.

[Kaberu]

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaberu wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yay! another fun post mired in a game mechanics sleight-of-hand!Berserkers do not parse anywhere near 2k zone-wide. They don't normally parse over 1k zone-wide unless they wait for their recycles before every fight or possibly if they are in the highest end, overly tweaked gear. Even a good combination of the two works as well!What <i><b>IS</b></i> true is that if a Dirge, Coercer, Inquisitor, etc... properly buffs a Berserker with hastes, DPS buffs, various procs and proc enhancers, recycle buffs, and so on... they can stack the berserkers parse so it reaches the 1k to 2k+ marks quite easily. Non-buckler specced Berserkers can also reach the 1.5k to 2k+ range with proper buff stacking. I've witnessed and experienced this myself enough times to realize that buff stacking is more the issue in raids than most Berserkers' in these forums usually attribute on a regular basis.As far as raids, it's more important to have overall DPS raised as opposed as your individual DPS. If swapping you into a spot to raise your DPS by 500 causes a scout to switch out of a 700 boost (as they have more to gain and lose from buff stacking)... well, you might look better personally, but you are hurting your raid as a whole. Just keep that in mind if you start chasing the 2k+ range.</blockquote>if you cant get a 2K zonewide parse in innersanctum as a MTing berserker then you suck.<div>and no i dont need to be in a stacked group to reach those number. only ever had a dirgue templar defiler waden swash in order to reach those number.</div><div></div><div>before you start making assumption about what is possible and what isnt learn to play.</div></blockquote>So what you are saying is that if you have a "<i>dirgue templar defiler waden swash</i>" in your group, with their buffs stacked on you... you can reach those numbers?What was it I said again?<i>"What <b>IS</b> true is that if a Dirge, Coercer, Inquisitor, etc... properly buffs a Berserker with hastes, DPS buffs, various procs and proc enhancers, recycle buffs, and so on... they can stack the berserkers parse so it reaches the 1k to 2k+ marks quite easily."</i>Riiiiiight...So if you copy what I say, but tell me that I'm wrong for saying it... what does that make you?What I've been saying is a Berserker can't reach those numbers without all of those buffs stacked on him from those other classes. If he can't reach those numbers without those buffs... how is it solely the Berserker's fault for not reaching those numbers?If sucking requires me to maintain at least a shred of logic and reason, then yes... I suck!

[Schmalex23]

<cite>ZerkerDwarf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>When raid MTing in KoS I parse 1000ish zonewide. </p></blockquote>maybe you're missing this part from the OP... so just so you understand what we are talking about

[Kaberu]

Well, the OP was asking what HE could do to fix it... Hopefully all these replies illustrated that it will take a larger effort from the rest of the raid as opposed to just him. Based on the rest of his post, he seems to be doing all the right things which means there isn't really much else he can do on his own despite him trying to do just that.

[Triste-Lune]

<cite>Kaberu wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaberu wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yay! another fun post mired in a game mechanics sleight-of-hand!Berserkers do not parse anywhere near 2k zone-wide. They don't normally parse over 1k zone-wide unless they wait for their recycles before every fight or possibly if they are in the highest end, overly tweaked gear. Even a good combination of the two works as well!What <i><b>IS</b></i> true is that if a Dirge, Coercer, Inquisitor, etc... properly buffs a Berserker with hastes, DPS buffs, various procs and proc enhancers, recycle buffs, and so on... they can stack the berserkers parse so it reaches the 1k to 2k+ marks quite easily. Non-buckler specced Berserkers can also reach the 1.5k to 2k+ range with proper buff stacking. I've witnessed and experienced this myself enough times to realize that buff stacking is more the issue in raids than most Berserkers' in these forums usually attribute on a regular basis.As far as raids, it's more important to have overall DPS raised as opposed as your individual DPS. If swapping you into a spot to raise your DPS by 500 causes a scout to switch out of a 700 boost (as they have more to gain and lose from buff stacking)... well, you might look better personally, but you are hurting your raid as a whole. Just keep that in mind if you start chasing the 2k+ range.</blockquote>if you cant get a 2K zonewide parse in innersanctum as a MTing berserker then you suck.<div>and no i dont need to be in a stacked group to reach those number. only ever had a dirgue templar defiler waden swash in order to reach those number.</div><div></div><div>before you start making assumption about what is possible and what isnt learn to play.</div></blockquote>So what you are saying is that if you have a "<i>dirgue templar defiler waden swash</i>" in your group, with their buffs stacked on you... you can reach those numbers?What was it I said again?<i>"What <b>IS</b> true is that if a Dirge, Coercer, Inquisitor, etc... properly buffs a Berserker with hastes, DPS buffs, various procs and proc enhancers, recycle buffs, and so on... they can stack the berserkers parse so it reaches the 1k to 2k+ marks quite easily."</i>Riiiiiight...So if you copy what I say, but tell me that I'm wrong for saying it... what does that make you?What I've been saying is a Berserker can't reach those numbers without all of those buffs stacked on him from those other classes. If he can't reach those numbers without those buffs... how is it solely the Berserker's fault for not reaching those numbers?If sucking requires me to maintain at least a shred of logic and reason, then yes... I suck!</blockquote><div><div>Not very bright are you? what happened to the first paragraph about waiting for recycle etc etc? i never wait for buff to come up and my gear is nowhere close to avatar gear you seem to think is required.</div><div></div></div><div>any class in a raid i run is getting at least 1 support class for them to perform better, are you puting random class in random group shaking very hard and hoping you ll get a decent raid set up?</div><div>i never once had a stacked group wich you seem to think is required "<span style="font-size: 11px;color: #444444;" class="Apple-style-span">Berserker can't reach those numbers without all of those buffs stacked"</span>, if i could have allowed myself to put a coercer in my group instead of the warden and an inqui instead of the templar and an assassin instead of the swash i would have [Removed for Content] the parse even more.</div><div>if a player cant perform without requiering a stacked group then he suck period.</div>

[Kaberu]

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><div><div>Not very bright are you? what happened to the first paragraph about waiting for recycle etc etc? i never wait for buff to come up and my gear is nowhere close to avatar gear you seem to think is required.</div><div></div></div><div>any class in a raid i run is getting at least 1 support class for them to perform better, are you puting random class in random group shaking very hard and hoping you ll get a decent raid set up?</div><div>i never once had a stacked group wich you seem to think is required "<span style="font-size: 11px;color: #444444;" class="Apple-style-span">Berserker can't reach those numbers without all of those buffs stacked"</span>, if i could have allowed myself to put a coercer in my group instead of the warden and an inqui instead of the templar and an assassin instead of the swash i would have [I cannot control my vocabulary] the parse even more.</div><div>if a player cant perform without requiering a stacked group then he suck period.</div></blockquote>Er, that whole paragraph to which you are referring...<span class="postbody"><i>"Berserkers do not parse anywhere near 2k zone-wide. They don't normally parse over 1k zone-wide unless they wait for their recycles before every fight or possibly if they are in the highest end, overly tweaked gear. Even a good combination of the two works as well!"</i>... was me illustrating that berserkers can't do that on their own (ie: groupless) without special conditions to which I gave examples ("</span><span class="postbody"><i>wait for their recycles" </i>and<i> "</i></span><span class="postbody"><i>highest end, overly tweaked gear"</i>).Also, I hoped by using </span><span class="postbody">"<i>Dirge, Coercer, Inquisitor, etc...</i>"</span><span class="postbody"> that it was obvious I was merely giving examples. Lets put it this way... a group of 6 Berserkers are not going to enhance each other's DPS. Why? Because their buffs don't stack.It would be very interesting to live in Triste-Lune land, I must admit. Where "just a Berserker" is no different from a Berserker and several of his friends! Imagine the soloing potential! Maybe everyone is a quad boxer or something on your server? I dunno!Yes, I know the OP was talking about himself in the context of a raid, but he does want to know what he himself could do. Last time I checked, he, by himself, was just a single Berserker! Last time I check, he was posting in the Berserker forums! Last time I checked, he was asking how to improve his Berserker!Look, when you ask yourself if you want a bottle in front of me or a frontal lobotomy... you're suppose to pick the bottle. </span><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />We are the lollipop kids, the lollipop kids, the lollipop kids!!!<span class="postbody"></span>

[lost]

I don't think anyone is denying that we are buff sponges, but truth be told, a tank should be brought along on a raid to be able to tank mobs.  To tank mobs effectively just so happens to require 2 healers and a dirge--and the buffs from 2 healers and a dirge are going to be good enough for a berserker to use most of their potential.  We know he is tower specced, and it can probably spike to 2k+ in some fights, but I don't think there is much of a chance at hitting 2k zonewide parses in that spec unless you are in a zone like lyceum with a very nice group. That being said, right now, all we know is he parses 1k in raids, but can parse slightly higher solo in poets (1.1k solo in poets with a tower sounds pretty good actually).  What that tells me is that he isn't hitting the mobs he is tanking often enough, but without seeing a parse, we won't be able to tell.  If his skills are maxed in his raid setup (dirge run boon, templar hp/skills buff, and offensive should do it if not primitive instinct from the warden), I would guess that there is no brigand in the raid, or the raid isn't using all of their debuffs.  As it has been said before, if you are not comfortable staying in offensive stance for fights, try a lower level defensive stance since it still gives the mitigation benefit and some defensive benefits, but at less of a penalty offensively compared to your normal defensive stance.

[FightGame]

<p>The biggest thing that affects my zw is my skills.  I rarely get a warden or templar in my group.  Most times I have a dirge, but don't even get this every time either.  Therefore my melee skills is usually about 425ish in offensive stance.  Therefore most EoF raid zones I only hit about 60-70%.</p><p>Another HUGE factor would be your guilds zw total.  Many guilds probably run around 20k.  Skel's guild, for example, probably about 40k.  So, if your guild can kill in half the time, your dps will double.  I'm usually around 1400, with my guild doing around 30k.  If my guild could get up to the 40k mark, that would be a 25% improvement, and since a zerkers dps comes in bursts (through temp buffs like ow, juger, destruct), it would probably help our personal dps by slightly more than 25%.  If I could get another in my group to buff my melee skills and start hitting 80% instead of 60%, that would add up to a little bit as well.  Add the 2 of these factors together, and I'm sure I'd be sitting around the 2k mark myself.</p>

[uux]

<cite>FightGame wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Another HUGE factor would be your guilds zw total.  Many guilds probably run around 20k.  Skel's guild, for example, probably about 40k.  <span style="color: #ff3300;">So, if your guild can kill in half the time, your dps will double. </span> I'm usually around 1400, with my guild doing around 30k.  If my guild could get up to the 40k mark, that would be a 25% improvement, and since a zerkers dps comes in bursts (through temp buffs like ow, juger, destruct), it would probably help our personal dps by slightly more than 25%.  If I could get another in my group to buff my melee skills and start hitting 80% instead of 60%, that would add up to a little bit as well.  Add the 2 of these factors together, and I'm sure I'd be sitting around the 2k mark myself.</p></blockquote>Your dps has nothing to do with what dps others are doing.  You are assuming that you would do the same amount of damage that you needed the longer duration for in the shorter duration.  You wouldn't just be dividing the same damage amount by a shorter duration.  You would be dividing a lesser damage amount.Let's say you did 84,000 damage in 60 seconds (it took your guild 60s to kill the mob).  That puts you at 1400 DPS.  If you cut the time in half, sure, it would seem like you did 2800 DPS.  However, that's only if you still did 84,000 damage in that 30 seconds.  You won't.  It took you 60s to do that much.  If you did 84,000 damage in 30 seconds as opposed to 60 seconds, then you really did double your DPS.  It's not a funny trick with the numbers.  The only way your dps would double from half the time is if you did nothing for at least half of every fight.Also, when you talk about zonewide parses, spike damage is no longer a concern.  It's averaged out for the duration of the zone.  As I said earlier as well, a longer duration means you are using those abilities more often as well.  It becomes quite consistent.

[uux]

Here is the parse Lost (Jayn) posted in this thread.<img src="http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/6536/2kzwtr1.png" alt="" border="0" />Here is a parse I posted in another thread of myself.  It's of an entirely different zone.<img src="http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/9732/cwmoutgoing20070612jj6.jpg" alt="" border="0" />Here is one from Skel from the same thread.<img src="http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t2/alex_schmalex/parse-1.jpg" alt="" border="0" />Notice the sources of damage are fairly consistent?  Even Destruction (Rampaging Blows)?  The durations are pretty far apart as well as the number of times used.   Duration has nothing to do with it.  You can follow all the posted parses in the thread Skel pointed out as well.  It's the same.  The sources of damage are the same and fairly consistent across all the players even though the parses come from different zones with different durations.What you guys can do to improve yourselves (if needed) is run your own parse and compare.  See what sources of damage you're missing out on.  Which sources are not up to par with the other players.  Is your autoattack not up to par?  Then what's your accuracy?  What autoattack buffs do you receive?  Is Breach not performing as well?  Then are you using Breach every possible opportunity?   Furious Assault not proc'ing as much?  Then do you have a dirge or templar increasing proc rates?  Haste even?Most things are fairly easy to explain as to why you're not hitting the full potential.  Some are not so easy.  It's not easy to tell if mobs are being debuffed properly, or it you're brigand is calling out dispatch and whether or not you use that to your advantage.  However, parse yourself and see.  Maybe you'll find something useful.  Post it here even if you want help.

[LygerT]

<p>double post... V</p>

[LygerT]

after comparing, the main thing i see is a lack of many procs both missing due to gear but also from other classes not casting proc buffs often enough. the main contributor i see is the real depression in the tohit % as all of those posted are well above 90% where mine is a measely 79% overall, with autoattack sitting at a staggering 64% hit ratio which is sickening and many other powerful attacks well below 80%. what does this mean? it means the mob is not being debuffed very well at all and my offensive attack skills are lacking due to equipment, both are expectable from casual raid forces but that does not mean it should be acceptable however it does not mean the problem lies within the Zerker but those around them which was the point in my original post, you can do everything possible but that does not mean you will be putting out the numbers that other zerkers are, mainly because of things that are completely out of your control, the only thing you can do to fix it is tell people to stop slacking at their jobs.

[Schmalex23]

Because its not your fault if you dont understand why you arent performing and improve that?  Be it getting the right buffs or going after certin gear to change the situation.  If you're on a soccer team, and you have the ability to score alot of goals but the ball doesnt get passed to you much... isnt it your fault for not asking to have the ball passed to you?

[LygerT]

i'm still working on fixing that but again, my point was you can never expect ideal situations when dealing with people who have not raided much or do not know their class inside and out yet.

[Kage8]

<cite>uux wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kage848 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Thats kinda what I mean. But look at it this way. DPS = Damage per second. If others in your grp aren't doing nice damage the fight lasts longer. Thats means more seconds. The longer the fight lasts the lower your dps drops. If your in a raid of people doing 600-1k dps (Like my raids) then your not ganna do 2k+ period.</blockquote>This is a bit misleading.  The majority of our damage is consistent, so it doesn't matter how long the fight lasts.For example, let's compare you and me.  Say we both do 60,000 damage to some random trash mob.  However, let's say your raid killed the mob in 30s, and mine took 60s.  Yes, your dps would then parse 2x of what mine is.  The time isn't a trick.  You really did 2x the damage even though the total was the same.  You did the same amount of damage in half the time.  It has nothing to do with what other players parse.  Your dps would not have stopped had the duration increased another 30s.The only time a short duration helps is when spike damage occurs (Destruction/Open Wounds/Juggernaut).  Even then, sometimes longer fights can let you use those abilities more often in a zone.  So it only benefits the parse on a per fight basis, not a zonewide.</blockquote>Ok ill say this as simply as i can.Raid #1 (Uber raid guild) Kills X mob in 30 sec. and the zerker in that grp does 60,000 damage. thats 2k DPS.Raid #2 (casual raid guild) Kills same mob in 60 sec. SAME Zerker does 60,000 damage. Thats 1k dps.Second raid takes longer cause other dps is not doing as much damage, for what ever reason, as raid #1 is.So there you can see it may not be the Zerker but the dps hes with.

[Schmalex23]

why would the same zerker do the same damage in 30 and 60 seconds?

[Kaberu]

I don't think he literally means those numbers, but is just illustrating a point. I think by casual, he means plenty of Adept ones and lack of gear to make a large enough difference to notice compared to a mastered out, geared out force.It's simple enough to compare within the higher contrast of difference presented in groups: Berserkers parse higher per second in a short fight. A high DPS group (with rangers, assassins, warlocks, etc...) creates an environment where mobs die very fast.  Since the Berserker initiates the fight when tanking, he gets a "buffed" lead on his parse if the fight ends fast. That same berserker in a low DPS group will be stuck in fights where the mob takes longer to kill... likely long enough to put them out of our sweet spot for optimal parsing.That lead in parsing averages down during longer raid fights but even in raid zones, there are usually enough trash mobs that can be downed quickly enough to help bring the average up when mixed with the longer boss fights. It's not nearly as noticeable as group fighting, but it is there.While the difference is not likely as extreme as the numbers used in the example, it is a valid point.

[Schmalex23]

you do understand that zonewides even out burst damage right?  I mean if we are going to talk about "long fights" i usually parse higher on those then my ZW.  FTH for example:<img src="http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t2/alex_schmalex/fth-oth.jpg" alt="" border="0" />2500 on a named<img src="http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t2/alex_schmalex/fthzw.jpg" alt="" border="0" />but only 2k ZWThe only instance when burst would mean anything is for single parses or if you waited every pull to have OW/des/juggerThis is from the same run too as you can see by the dates

[Kage8]

Skel the duration of the fight is not what matters at all. Its the fact that a Zerker can do the same amount of damage on 2 diff fights and have lower dps numbers if the other classes with him are do less damage.If the mage/scout classes do less dps the fight lasts longer. The fight lasting longer factors in DPS (damage per SECOND). Thats all.DPS is very misleading. I think where you come in on the parse, 1st 2nd 3rd ect and the skill lvl/gear of the people you raid with AND your dps all come into account when deciding how well, or not well, your doing.Its not just a strait oh i do X DPS and you do X DPS thing. Its not black and white.Oh and this topic has gotin a little off i guess. Sorry to the OP. I didnt read everyones posts but you should think about going Sta/Str line.And dont take your DPS to heart. Your 1k+ or so dps is really kinda good without sta line lol.If the OP is still looking at this tread and it hasent been said what do your raid parses look like for the top 5 or so? Where do you rank? Are the people you raid with geared out? Are they good players?

[uux]

<cite>Skel@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>why would the same zerker do the same damage in 30 and 60 seconds?</blockquote>That is exactly the question I was gonna ask.  LOL

[uux]

<cite>Kaberu wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't think he literally means those numbers, but is just illustrating a point. I think by casual, he means plenty of Adept ones and lack of gear to make a large enough difference to notice compared to a mastered out, geared out force.It's simple enough to compare within the higher contrast of difference presented in groups: Berserkers parse higher per second in a short fight. A high DPS group (with rangers, assassins, warlocks, etc...) creates an environment where mobs die very fast.  Since the Berserker initiates the fight when tanking, he gets a "buffed" lead on his parse if the fight ends fast. That same berserker in a low DPS group will be stuck in fights where the mob takes longer to kill... likely long enough to put them out of our sweet spot for optimal parsing.That lead in parsing averages down during longer raid fights but even in raid zones, there are usually enough trash mobs that can be downed quickly enough to help bring the average up when mixed with the longer boss fights. It's not nearly as noticeable as group fighting, but it is there.While the difference is not likely as extreme as the numbers used in the example, it is a valid point.</blockquote>The difference between Adept 1's and Master 1's are quantifiable.  The quality in combat arts increases in set steps.  Parses easily can reflect this.  The damage would be lesser, and for most, the accuracy would be lesser.We're not talking about short fights.  We're not talking about rigging a parse so that all our spike damage is up at once.  The spike damage over time with normal use comes out pretty consistently.  Just look at the parses people are posting in various threads.   Destruction is coming out in the same range.  Autoattack is coming out in the same range.   Those are our biggest sources of spike damage.   The durations in the parses for the same zone vary quite a bit.   Being able to use those abilities more often easily makes up for the same abilities parsing slightly higher with a shorter duration per fight.If raid #1 completes a zone in 30 minutes and raid #2 completes the same zone in 60 minutes, then it makes no difference on your dps.   If a berserker in both raids were doing damage at the same pace (the same damage per second), then in the end the person in raid #2 would have done 2x the total damage and used his abilities 2x as often.  If the duration was only 10% longer, then the other berserker should have done 10% more total damage and used his abilities 10% more often.  It's really not a trick.The duration isn't a valid point at all and has a minimal impact on the numbers in reality.

[Kage8]

<cite>uux wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Skel@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>why would the same zerker do the same damage in 30 and 60 seconds?</blockquote>That is exactly the question I was gonna ask.  LOL</blockquote>Most of the time, I know its like this for me, when i fight lasts for a while my dps number suffer. I use OW/Dest/Jugg or what not. And when there done my dps drops. So yea those numbers arent excatly correct they are an idea of what happens in low dps raids.You did notice on Skel's raid parse theres like 5 people doing 2800+ DPS. They all help each others dps by making the fight duration lower.Lets say Shaix, Libnok, Gisellen and the rest all do less damage. Skel may get a bit more damage cause the fight lasts longer but the increased duration would lower his dps number. At lest thats what i have seen in my parses in the past. When i grp with good dps players my dps soars and when i dps with poor or few dps players my dps drops.I dont know maby Skel's dps goes up with duration but from my personal experiance mine doesnt.

[uux]

<cite>Kage848 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Skel the duration of the fight is not what matters at all. Its the fact that a Zerker can do the same amount of damage on 2 diff fights and have lower dps numbers if the other classes with him are do less damage.If the mage/scout classes do less dps the fight lasts longer. The fight lasting longer factors in DPS (damage per SECOND). Thats all.DPS is very misleading. I think where you come in on the parse, 1st 2nd 3rd ect and the skill lvl/gear of the people you raid with AND your dps all come into account when deciding how well, or not well, your doing.Its not just a strait oh i do X DPS and you do X DPS thing. Its not black and white.Oh and this topic has gotin a little off i guess. Sorry to the OP. I didnt read everyones posts but you should think about going Sta/Str line.And dont take your DPS to heart. Your 1k+ or so dps is really kinda good without sta line lol.If the OP is still looking at this tread and it hasent been said what do your raid parses look like for the top 5 or so? Where do you rank? Are the people you raid with geared out? Are they good players?</blockquote>You should have read the OP's following posts.  He is in the STA line.You keep saying damage per SECOND.   Change that a bit to DAMAGE per SECOND.  Both factor in.  Your damage doesn't just stop after a certain amount of time.  Your total damage keeps increasing as the time goes on.It is very important what other players are doing.  Just not their DPS, unless of course you're running out of power.  That's just ridiculous, though.   There's no excuse to why your damage would just stop after a period of time.

[Kage8]

<cite>uux wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaberu wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't think he literally means those numbers, but is just illustrating a point. I think by casual, he means plenty of Adept ones and lack of gear to make a large enough difference to notice compared to a mastered out, geared out force.It's simple enough to compare within the higher contrast of difference presented in groups: Berserkers parse higher per second in a short fight. A high DPS group (with rangers, assassins, warlocks, etc...) creates an environment where mobs die very fast.  Since the Berserker initiates the fight when tanking, he gets a "buffed" lead on his parse if the fight ends fast. That same berserker in a low DPS group will be stuck in fights where the mob takes longer to kill... likely long enough to put them out of our sweet spot for optimal parsing.That lead in parsing averages down during longer raid fights but even in raid zones, there are usually enough trash mobs that can be downed quickly enough to help bring the average up when mixed with the longer boss fights. It's not nearly as noticeable as group fighting, but it is there.While the difference is not likely as extreme as the numbers used in the example, it is a valid point.</blockquote>The difference between Adept 1's and Master 1's are quantifiable.  The quality in combat arts increases in set steps.  Parses easily can reflect this.  The damage would be lesser, and for most, the accuracy would be lesser.We're not talking about short fights.  We're not talking about rigging a parse so that all our spike damage is up at once.  The spike damage over time with normal use comes out pretty consistently.  Just look at the parses people are posting in various threads.   Destruction is coming out in the same range.  Autoattack is coming out in the same range.   Those are our biggest sources of spike damage.   The durations in the parses for the same zone vary quite a bit.   Being able to use those abilities more often easily makes up for the same abilities parsing slightly higher with a shorter duration per fight.If raid #1 completes a zone in 30 minutes and raid #2 completes the same zone in 60 minutes, then it makes no difference on your dps.   If a berserker in both raids were doing damage at the same pace (the same damage per second), then in the end the person in raid #2 would have done 2x the total damage and used his abilities 2x as often.  If the duration was only 10% longer, then the other berserker should have done 10% more total damage and used his abilities 10% more often.  It's really not a trick.The duration isn't a valid point at all and has a minimal impact on the numbers in reality.</blockquote>We have spike damage. If a fight is going on long enough so that Dest/OW/Jugg wear off then yes duration is valid. And it does on my raids. Is duration the main factor? Of course not but it does matter. I can tell you for a fact no one would ZW parse 2k+ damage on my raids lol. Although there are other factors the teamwork of your other dps raiders does matter.If you dont agree i can respect that. We will have to agree to disagree...=0)

[Kage8]

<cite>uux wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kage848 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Skel the duration of the fight is not what matters at all. Its the fact that a Zerker can do the same amount of damage on 2 diff fights and have lower dps numbers if the other classes with him are do less damage.If the mage/scout classes do less dps the fight lasts longer. The fight lasting longer factors in DPS (damage per SECOND). Thats all.DPS is very misleading. I think where you come in on the parse, 1st 2nd 3rd ect and the skill lvl/gear of the people you raid with AND your dps all come into account when deciding how well, or not well, your doing.Its not just a strait oh i do X DPS and you do X DPS thing. Its not black and white.Oh and this topic has gotin a little off i guess. Sorry to the OP. I didnt read everyones posts but you should think about going Sta/Str line.And dont take your DPS to heart. Your 1k+ or so dps is really kinda good without sta line lol.If the OP is still looking at this tread and it hasent been said what do your raid parses look like for the top 5 or so? Where do you rank? Are the people you raid with geared out? Are they good players?</blockquote>You should have read the OP's following posts.  He is in the STA line.You keep saying damage per SECOND.   Change that a bit to DAMAGE per SECOND.  Both factor in.  Your damage doesn't just stop after a certain amount of time.  Your total damage keeps increasing as the time goes on.It is very important what other players are doing.  Just not their DPS, unless of course you're running out of power.  That's just ridiculous, though.   There's no excuse to why your damage would just stop after a period of time.</blockquote>Good point about his follow-up post. Just saw that.Damage dosent stop but it does trail off as your main good dps abilities wear off.

[uux]

<cite>Kage848 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>uux wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Skel@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>why would the same zerker do the same damage in 30 and 60 seconds?</blockquote>That is exactly the question I was gonna ask.  LOL</blockquote>Most of the time, I know its like this for me, when i fight lasts for a while my dps number suffer. I use OW/Dest/Jugg or what not. And when there done my dps drops. So yea those numbers arent excatly correct they are an idea of what happens in low dps raids.You did notice on Skel's raid parse theres like 5 people doing 2800+ DPS. They all help each others dps by making the fight duration lower.Lets say Shaix, Libnok, Gisellen and the rest all do less damage. Skel may get a bit more damage cause the fight lasts longer but the increased duration would lower his dps number. At lest thats what i have seen in my parses in the past. When i grp with good dps players my dps soars and when i dps with poor or few dps players my dps drops.I dont know maby Skel's dps goes up with duration but from my personal experiance mine doesnt.</blockquote>Did you notice my clockwork parse vs Skel's?  Look carefully at the duration.  I'll tell you what my particular raid did zonewide as well.  It was around 22K.   According to you, I can't parse like that when everyone else is parsing so low.There could be a good reason why you parse lower when everyone else parses lower.   It's most likely how the mob is debuffed.  Compare your parses of when you parse high to when you parse low.   It'll show you where the difference is.EDITED:Bleh.  It's late and Skel did post a zonewide.

[uux]

<cite>Kage848 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Good point about his follow-up post. Just saw that.Damage dosent stop but it does trail off as your main good dps abilities wear off.</blockquote>Yes.  Per fight it'll trail off towards the end.  But in the big picture of the zonewide, you'll be using that ability on another fight sooner.  In the end, the difference is like 10-20 dps.   It doesn't account for 1K per second missing.  The impact is very minimal.

[Kage8]

<cite>uux wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kage848 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>uux wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Skel@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>why would the same zerker do the same damage in 30 and 60 seconds?</blockquote>That is exactly the question I was gonna ask.  LOL</blockquote>Most of the time, I know its like this for me, when i fight lasts for a while my dps number suffer. I use OW/Dest/Jugg or what not. And when there done my dps drops. So yea those numbers arent excatly correct they are an idea of what happens in low dps raids.You did notice on Skel's raid parse theres like 5 people doing 2800+ DPS. They all help each others dps by making the fight duration lower.Lets say Shaix, Libnok, Gisellen and the rest all do less damage. Skel may get a bit more damage cause the fight lasts longer but the increased duration would lower his dps number. At lest thats what i have seen in my parses in the past. When i grp with good dps players my dps soars and when i dps with poor or few dps players my dps drops.I dont know maby Skel's dps goes up with duration but from my personal experiance mine doesnt.</blockquote>Did you notice my clockwork parse vs Skel's?  Look carefully at the duration.  I'll tell you what my particular raid did zonewide as well.  It was around 22K.   According to you, I can't parse like that when everyone else is parsing so low.You're also focusing on the parse Skel posted of a single fight.  It's true it would be higher on that particular fight if the duration was shorter.  That's why we're talking about zonewides.  A zonewide portrays your average DPS over time.  The effect of the shorter duration is minimal.  Its simple math.  You don't even need a real parse to play with the numbers.There could be a good reason why you parse lower when everyone else parses lower.   It's most likely how the mob is debuffed.  Compare your parses of when you parse high to when you parse low.   It'll show you where the difference is.</blockquote>Hmmm. You know your starting to make sense to me now. Even if your dps trails off at the end from fight to fight the burst damage at the start is still factored in.Yea kinda makes sense to me know. A bit lol. But still overall in a parse for an entire raid zone if you kill the mobs fast enough you wont get the tail-off at the end of each fight no? I mean I do know from looking at my parces that i do have a dps loss after a certian amount of time in a fight.DPS is not steady. It spikes. If you can get the mobs dead b4 the spike dies out then your raid dps will still be higher no?And your right on about the de-buffs bro. Myu guild dosent have a brigand lol. Ah well thats the price for being in a casual guild.

[Kage8]

Back to the OP'er. I dont think its fair to say oh im not doing 2kdps im doing something wrong. Is 1k low? yea a little, but the soulfire, if its the weapon i think it is (3del, 178ish high end damage), its not the end all weapon of the game. People like Skel are using WAY better im sure lol.

[Kaberu]

Er, maybe I'm missing something Skel, but is 93 seconds to take down a 73 x4 Named epic really considered long? Based on the total listed for your raid, 33043 per second, Othysis has just over 3 million in hit points. A more modest group pulling 25k in DPS would take 123 seconds on that same fight... a full 30 seconds longer. It's a little harder to maintain that 2.5k for an extra 30 seconds... abilities are indeed affected by time. Destruction for example, one of our signature moves...Destruction did about 650 per hit average on your ZW parse. 650 * 10 procs = 6500... 6500/180 second recast = 36 per second as a base. But yours shows 58 per second? Weird, huh?Comparing the 93 second fight (33+k DPS raid force) to the 123 second fight (25k DPS raid force):<b>93 second fight</b> = 1 cast of Destruction = 10 procs @ 650 = 65006500 in damage / 93 second fight = 70 DPS added from Destruction for that fight.<b>123 second fight</b> = 1 cast of Destruction = 10 procs @ 650 = 65006500 in damage / 123 second fight = 53 DPS added from Destruction for that fight.Sometimes the effect works opposite... a longer fight might allow more recasts to sneak in just before the mob dies, boosting the overall DPS of the ability. As an example, if the fight went 190 seconds, the DPS contribution from Destruction would shoot back up to 69 DPS (<i>huh-huh, he said sixty-nine!</i>).Basically, even though you appear to be doing the same amount of damage per second overall, your average parse is lower in the 123 second fight. Averaging those parses over several fights in a zone would still lead to a lower overall parse ZW despite actually maintaining the 6500 in damage per 180 seconds from Destruction.Reverse engineering your parse numbers shows that Destruction was averaged using approximately 112-second fights (from my rounded figures). So less than 2 minutes per fight easily. Any group that averages in the 2 to 3 minute range will parse lower than you with their Destruction by a noticable amount. That's quite a wide window... and also a window that many casual and lower DPS raiders fall into.It doesn't seem like much, but that is from just one ability. That's not considering the other minor decreases from non-mastered buffs/debuffs and so on that come from the rest of the raid force. On their own they aren't much and seem negligible, but they do add up to a lot more than most realize when stacked together.If anything, it does show the potential trouble when dealing with parsers...

[Schmalex23]

im done talking to you... you dont seem to understand ZW.  Not to mention how dumb you sound QQing about 20 dps difference from destruction.  This almost reminds me of your dumb regen post.  You truly win at the internet

[Beldin_]

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>after comparing, the main thing i see is a lack of many procs both missing due to gear but also from other classes not casting proc buffs often enough. the main contributor i see is the real depression in the tohit % as all of those posted are well above 90% where mine is a measely 79% overall, with autoattack sitting at a staggering 64% hit ratio which is sickening and many other powerful attacks well below 80%. what does this mean? it means the mob is not being debuffed very well at all and <b>my offensive attack skills are lacking due to equipment</b></blockquote>Not just equipment. Lost at least said he had a warden in group, and wardens have a great +skill buff. Also he had a dirge and maybe also the dirge had a +skill buff running.

[Triste-Lune]

Rofl some noobs here managed to worn the patience of Skel that s a big feat. From what i see on flames Skel is one of the most patient and helpfull zerker i see in the zerker community. beside uux there seems to be no that has a clue here. it s sad what those boards have become.

[lost]

<cite>Shalla@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>after comparing, the main thing i see is a lack of many procs both missing due to gear but also from other classes not casting proc buffs often enough. the main contributor i see is the real depression in the tohit % as all of those posted are well above 90% where mine is a measely 79% overall, with autoattack sitting at a staggering 64% hit ratio which is sickening and many other powerful attacks well below 80%. what does this mean? it means the mob is not being debuffed very well at all and <b>my offensive attack skills are lacking due to equipment</b></blockquote>Not just equipment. Lost at least said he had a warden in group, and wardens have a great +skill buff. Also he had a dirge and maybe also the dirge had a +skill buff running.</blockquote>I have +5 slashing from my eof set gloves and +7 from soulfire.  Then +46 (I think) from a mastered offensive stance, +13 from the templar's buffs, +28 from the dirge's dissonant boon (dirge has a clearcutter and no +slash gear so he needs it to dps effectively), and +65 from the warden's primitive instinct.  That all adds up to +164 skills, and well over the 455 skill cap.  Depending on the various skill buffs available, I'll use a defensive stance that keeps my skills as close to 455 as possible when it is necessary to go into defensive. The best part about our dps is that we can sustain it for a long time.  If you look at the zonewide parses, you'll see 1k+ damage is coming from auto attack alone.  That portion will not change whether you are full power or out of power.  Then, you have buffs like Tomb's Calm, Apply Poison, and even CoB (if your dirge has 3 eof bonus) that add up to ~200 dps no matter how long the fight is.  Then, on a zonewide, you have 50-85 dps from Destruction depending on how many mobs are in an encounter, and the rest of your cas adding 25-50 dps each.  Its all sustainable, but also very easy to lose dps.  2k dps turns into probably 1.8 with no brig in raid or debuffers not doing their jobs.  Drop some skill buffs and that 1.8 turns into 1.5.  Then, switch from buckler to tower, and you are probably around 1.2k.   In all reality, talking with your raid leader, you can probably get that extra accuracy, and you could switch from tower to buckler.  With those alone and your gear, you will probably be around 1.5k.  Then, the rest is just your raid gearing up and learning together how to optimize its dps.

[LygerT]

<p>i notice a bit of a difference since i picked up even the legendary soulfire gladius last night, just doing some solo parsing i noticed an 18% increase in damage over my old weapon (shadow axe) while still not being able to draw out its full potential with enough haste- self buffed around 80 haste(max, not consistently). however you do have to time your attacks well to really utilize the autoattack DPS. will do more testing on the raid this evening and compare vs some old parses to see how the 2.5 compares to the 3.0 delay with an average 100+ constant haste.   (i am crit specced obviously and have a few pieces of crit jewelry that help exploit the higher base damage) seeing the difference just by that small upgrade i can imagine what a real weapon would do. keeping in mind this testing was done on green ^^^ heroics with almost a 100% hit ratio, the % difference would be brought down as the hit % also goes down. </p><p>as for the offensive skill buffs, honestly i just wish i could have a dirge most of the time, a templar or a warden. honestly sometimes i have none of those classes so i guess the problem doesn't just lie in debuffing the mobs defense but also in not having the most ideal group setups, but keep in mind most casual raiders also will not have ideal group makeups either. the one parse i was looking at did have a dirge in the group, but i have no idea what his spell levels are, considering Blade Chime was only 5 DPS over a 50 minute parse makes me really wonder [Removed for Content] is going on here. </p>

[Kaberu]

<cite>Skel@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>im done talking to you... you dont seem to understand ZW.  Not to mention how dumb you sound QQing about 20 dps difference from destruction.  This almost reminds me of your dumb regen post.  You truly win at the internet</blockquote>I fully understand zone-wide parsing. The parts I presented are smaller parts that affect the whole. A single typical play from a full game of football generally represents little to no effect of the overall game (aside from those miracle plays of course). That one play however can have cascading effects that stack with effects from other plays in the game creating a trend that ultimately creates major shifts in the game as the time winds down.For some reason, you separate the two views entirely from each other or apparently lack the will to discuss the interplay between them. A 20 DPS difference in Destruction is indeed small and insignificant as I myself mentioned directly. I was merely connecting the numbers 3 and 4 out of the entire connect-the-dot picture (<i>it's a picture of a duck by the way... he's carrying a suitcase and wearing one of those old fashioned reporter hats. I think it's a polka-dot tie he's wearing but as I mentioned, I've only connected two dots so far. Oh crap... I forgot I don't have crayons! Now I'm gonna have to ask mommy to buy me some so I can color it when I'm done. I think I'll make him blue. I like purple better but I'm thinking that will make him look sick or something...</i>). Making that single line means nothing if you can't relate it to how the whole picture is drawn out. Triste may think I'm testing patience, but I'm beginning to think it's in comprehension where I've reached the limits.To break it down so that I know what I'm talking about (No, it's not a typo and yes, it does happen sometimes):<b>Blah blah blah, Big picture, blah blah blah!</b><i>Blah blah blah, Small piece of the big picture and/or flip-side of the big picture and/or tea at a quaint little bistro down by the river that met the picture at a party once although it was too drunk to remember, blah blah blah!</i><b>Blah blah blah, It doesn't look like the big picture, blah blah blah!</b><i>Blah blah blah, But it's part of the big picture, blah blah blah!</i><b>Blah blah blah, n00b, blah blah blah!</b><i>Blah blah blah, Oh! Maybe I can make the duck red... Blah blah blah!</i>Then again, maybe a house isn't built out of wood, metal, plaster, paint and the like... maybe a house is built out of houses! I'm certainly getting that impression from some of the replies here!

[LygerT]

well i generally do get the feeling alot of folks forgot what it was to be in sub par gear and running a parser, no big deal though.. if you really want to compare though, equip a shadow axe and some old KoS legendary jewelry and take off the EoF armor for its set bonus and go out and parse on some heroics, i bet the numbers are nowhere near what they are in a raid burning epic X4s in 30 second pops without a dirge casting cacophany as quickly as it pops and it will give you a more realistic idea of what you are capable of vs others if you think you are the problem that is.

[Triste-Lune]

there is no subpar gear, only subpar player. all it takes is putting effort in getting adp3 and M1, gear only affect survivabilty.

[Slayer505]

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>there is no subpar gear, only subpar player. all it takes is putting effort in getting adp3 and M1, gear only affect survivabilty.</blockquote>While I agree that having good gear alone is not a single indicator of how good a player is, and I've seen some terrible players with good gear, I have to disagree with you.  Gear makes a HUGE difference for a warrior, and especially a Berserker.  For example, when I went from Vilucidae's Sword of Shielding to the Grim Brimstone hammer I gained around 400-500 DPS on average.  With VoS I'd hit 2k single target DPS a few times before, but when I switched to the GBH my max single target DPS went up to around 2.5-2.7k, with 2k being the low end of the scale (assuming I have my ideal group set up).

[LygerT]

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>there is no subpar gear, only subpar player.all it takes is putting effort in getting adp3 and M1, gear only affect survivabilty.</blockquote><p>btw, i have every master from 57-70 and only missing 3 ancients, none of which are damage arts and played a zerker from day one. after some testing last night on a pickup raid i found that a) if i have an active dirge and a templar in the group then my DPS is 1800+ b) if i have a dirge who is botting my DPS is ~1300 c) if i have no dirge my DPS is ~1000, less if the fight drags on. as the raid went on the DPS kept dropping, mainly because people stopped doing their jobs so the 1000 DPS figure may be a little skewed just due to the extended fights as well as the 1300 figure slightly due to laziness of buffing and/or buffs being swapped onto other people, i didn't investigate the parse for the run yet but was only keeping an eye on the basics like skill and haste/DPS buffs but will when i have the time to get a more in depth idea of where the DPS went(my fighting style and gear did not change at all during the raid but the DPS still fluctuates by nearly 1000 or more throughout the night).</p><p>as i said, DPS is very reliant on your support and your gear, those who say otherwise do not know what they are talking about and again i run a parser almost all day long trying to find little things to try and miximize my DPS. i do get a kick out of the ignorant posts though... also to note, just by swapping out 3 pieces of EoF legendary to 2 EoF fabled and 1 KoS fabled i was keeping almost 60% more health on ^^^ heroic named, maybe mitigation was capped low but the absorption rate still is quite noticable, as well the block % on the lucanic gladius does work very well. </p>

[Kaberu]

Lyger... seeing as you seem pretty experienced (and focused) on the numbers, I'm wondering if you ever tried mapping out the sequence of CAs at all. I imagine it would be easier visually, but as I haven't really tried it, I'm not sure at this point. Basically, mapping the CA lengths (in time) so you can find the best overlap compared to how much damage they contribute per second.To illustrate, Stampede for example:<b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;">0</span>0</span><span style="color: #0099ff;">0000000000000000000</span></b>Each "0" is 1/2 of a second. Red is the 1/2 second cast time, purple is the 1/2 second recovery overlap with the blue recast timer.Compare it to Disfigure over a 30 seconds:<b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;">0</span>0</span><span style="color: #0099ff;">0000000000000000000</span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;">0</span>0</span><span style="color: #0099ff;">0000000000000000000</span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;">0</span>0</span><span style="color: #0099ff;">0000000000000000000<span style="color: #ffffff;">Z</span></span></b>Stampede <b><span style="color: #0099ff;"></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;"><span style="color: #000000;">00</span>0</span>0</span><span style="color: #0099ff;">000000000000000000000000000000000000000</span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;"><span style="color: #000000;">0</span>0</span>0</span><span style="color: #0099ff;">00000000000000000<span style="color: #ffffff;">Z</span></span></b>Disfigure Disfigure can't start until the cast and recovery of Stampede have expired. But if you look carefully, you need to have a 1/2 second pause as the recovery finishes on Stampede before Disfigure queues up for the second time. This is because you can't begin the cast for Disfigure while stuck in the recovery for Stomp.If you swap the order however and use Disfigure fist, the two CAs mesh better (at least in the first 30 seconds...<b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;">0</span>0</span><span style="color: #0099ff;">000000000000000000000000000000000000000</span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;">0</span>0</span><span style="color: #0099ff;">00000000000000000000<span style="color: #ffffff;">Z</span></span></b>Disfigure <b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;"><span style="color: #000000;">00</span></span></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;">0</span>0</span><span style="color: #0099ff;">0000000000000000000</span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;">0</span>0</span><span style="color: #0099ff;">0000000000000000000</span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;">0</span>0</span><span style="color: #0099ff;">00000000000000000<span style="color: #ffffff;">Z</span></span></b>Stampede <b><span style="color: #0099ff;"> </span></b>No pause is needed between queues in this 30 second span. it's a small and largely negligible gain in this example, but the more gaps you eliminate, the larger the overall gain. If you factor in the damage of each combat art over an average time frame for a typical fight, you might be able to find a few magic sequences. The big problem is taking into consideration buffs to casting, recovery and recast speeds... many of which you might not know when grouped as well as the problems from being stunned and stifled by the mob.I'm not suggesting this as some sort of miracle boost, but combine it with every other tweak out there and it might just help streamline the tweaking process. We can actually show why timed and ordered CAs can work better in the longer fights. We might even find that Breach works better than Stampede in certain sequences due to how the timings stack (just as a hypothetical example).I personally have different CA combos depending on how I'm fighting... offensive tank mode (for the most aggro), defensive tank mode (for brutal fights), and DPS mode (not tanking). I use different CAs in different orders in each mode and it would be interesting to see how they stack up.I'm just not sure the effort in calculating it all is worth the gain although it would make a nice tool to create more detailed combat guides with.Just toying with it a bit more.. I added our Bloodbath in there just to show the growing complexity:Bad sequence:<b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;">0000</span></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;">0</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">0</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">000000</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">000</span></b><span style="color: #ffffff;"><b>Z</b></span>Bloodbath <b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;"><span style="color: #000000;">0</span></span></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;"><span style="color: #000000;">0</span></span></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;"><span style="color: #000000;">0</span></span></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;"><span style="color: #000000;">0</span></span></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;"><span style="color: #000000;">0</span></span></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;">0</span>0</span><span style="color: #0099ff;">0000000000000000000</span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;">0</span>0</span><span style="color: #0099ff;">0000000000000000000</span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;">0</span>0</span><span style="color: #0099ff;">00000000000000<span style="color: #ffffff;">Z</span></span></b>Stampede <b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;"><span style="color: #000000;">0</span></span></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;"><span style="color: #000000;">0</span></span></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;"><span style="color: #000000;">0</span></span></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;"><span style="color: #000000;">0</span></span></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;"><span style="color: #000000;">0</span></span></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;"><span style="color: #000000;">0</span></span></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;"><span style="color: #000000;">0</span></span></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;">0</span>0</span><span style="color: #0099ff;">000000000000000000000000000000000000000</span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;"><span style="color: #000000;">0</span></span></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;">0</span>0</span><span style="color: #0099ff;">000000000000<span style="color: #ffffff;">Z</span></span></b>Disfigure Good sequence:<b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;">0</span>0</span><span style="color: #0099ff;">000000000000000000000000000000000000000</span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;">0</span>0</span><span style="color: #0099ff;">00000000000000000000<span style="color: #ffffff;">Z</span></span></b>Disfigure <b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;"><span style="color: #000000;">00</span></span></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;">0</span>0</span><span style="color: #0099ff;">0000000000000000000</span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;">0</span>0</span><span style="color: #0099ff;">0000000000000000000</span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;">0</span>0</span><span style="color: #0099ff;">00000000000000000<span style="color: #ffffff;">Z</span></span></b>Stampede <b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;"><span style="color: #000000;">0</span></span></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;"><span style="color: #000000;">0</span></span></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;"><span style="color: #000000;">0</span></span></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;"><span style="color: #000000;">0</span></span></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;"><span style="color: #cc3333;">0000</span></span></b><b><span style="color: #9966cc;">0</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">0</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">00</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;">000</span></b><b><span style="color: #0099ff;"><span style="color: #ffffff;">Z</span></span></b>Bloodbath For at least these first 30 seconds... the same amount of combat art damage is being used, but in the Good version, Stampede is going to recycle 1.5 seconds earlier and Disfigure a good 2.5 seconds sooner.In this 30 second fight, it's not really that much of a difference, but over 90 or 120 seconds (or up to whatever your average raid kill time is) you might be able to squeeze in a few extra combat arts adding a couple to a few thousand extra in total damage (and aggro) to your parse.EDIT: The Bad sequence in the above example is misleading... using a timed bloodbath so that it hits as soon as you reach combat range knocks off the first 2 seconds of the fight in the parse since it was cast before combat was initiated. The diagram though is still useful to illustrate the point!

[LygerT]

my head hurts from trying to decipher that... in a perfect world with no latency and once the initial set is off and the second set begins and totally effs up your order, sure it might make a small difference. in other words i will still do my biggest DPS CAs first and then let the refresh orders as well as their complementing buffs, haste and latency take over without thinking i am some math whiz at making formulas that rarely have much relevance after 20 seconds of fight time.

[Kaberu]

I kind of had the same feeling... it's TOO much focus for the rewards to be gained. It's sort of like how physicists will still use Newtonian formulas over Einstein's more accurate formulas just because it's close enough and a heck of a lot easier to work with.I still think it's at least a good graphical means to illustrate the importance of CA timing, but the actual plotting of CA use is a bit too much.

[-Aonein-]

<cite>Kaberu wrote:</cite><blockquote>I kind of had the same feeling... it's TOO much focus for the rewards to be gained. It's sort of like how physicists will still use Newtonian formulas over Einstein's more accurate formulas just because it's close enough and a heck of a lot easier to work with.I still think it's at least a good graphical means to illustrate the importance of CA timing, but the actual plotting of CA use is a bit too much.</blockquote><p> Kab is right, plotting CA's is simply just too much for most people who play, there is no shame in it, people play the way they want.</p><p> Good to see you still around Kab.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>