Bring back need for CC?

[Brigog]

Im not sure about the rest of you, but I really miss the need for crowd control like we had in EQ1. On raids such as Ssra or even alot of PoP zones there were times enchanters had to keep 10+ mobs mezed while everyone fought. In EQ2 I really have not seen a need for it. I truly beleive that raids could be alot more interesting if they made it so pulls consisted of say a group of 8+ mobs in a single group and players needed to assist and control them to succeed. Adding an element like this back to EQ in my option would be awsome!Also I would like to see the pathing of mobs back to their spawn point where agro can be gained as they walk back as opposed to them just running back with no way of reagroing. This would be awesome for monks and bruisers as it would add a need for them to pull for raids and again bringing a need for the class to raids.

[Devbear]

<div align="justify"><cite>Brigog wrote:</cite></div><blockquote>Im not sure about the rest of you, but I really miss the need for crowd control like we had in EQ1. On raids such as Ssra or even alot of PoP zones there were times enchanters had to keep 10+ mobs mezed while everyone fought. In EQ2 I really have not seen a need for it. I truly beleive that raids could be alot more interesting if they made it so pulls consisted of say a group of 8+ mobs in a single group and players needed to assist and control them to succeed. Adding an element like this back to EQ in my option would be awsome!</blockquote>I agree.

[Durelli]

<cite>Devbear wrote:</cite><blockquote><div align="justify"><cite>Brigog wrote:</cite></div><blockquote>Im not sure about the rest of you, but I really miss the need for crowd control like we had in EQ1. On raids such as Ssra or even alot of PoP zones there were times enchanters had to keep 10+ mobs mezed while everyone fought. In EQ2 I really have not seen a need for it. I truly beleive that raids could be alot more interesting if they made it so pulls consisted of say a group of 8+ mobs in a single group and players needed to assist and control them to succeed. Adding an element like this back to EQ in my option would be awsome!</blockquote>I agree.</blockquote>Me three.CC adds such a fun, tactical element to battles. I've always wanted to roll an eq2 chanter but the lack of meaningful CC here always deters me. The tools are in game and work ok.. lets see some encounters that call for them!

[Maroger]

<cite>Durellius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Devbear wrote:</cite><blockquote><div align="justify"><cite>Brigog wrote:</cite></div><blockquote>Im not sure about the rest of you, but I really miss the need for crowd control like we had in EQ1. On raids such as Ssra or even alot of PoP zones there were times enchanters had to keep 10+ mobs mezed while everyone fought. In EQ2 I really have not seen a need for it. I truly beleive that raids could be alot more interesting if they made it so pulls consisted of say a group of 8+ mobs in a single group and players needed to assist and control them to succeed. Adding an element like this back to EQ in my option would be awsome!</blockquote>I agree.</blockquote>Me three.CC adds such a fun, tactical element to battles. I've always wanted to roll an eq2 chanter but the lack of meaningful CC here always deters me. The tools are in game and work ok.. lets see some encounters that call for them!</blockquote>I would agree. ALAS for coercers - there is  a developer who disliked CC in EQ1 and wanted to ensure that it was not possible in EQ2 -- hence the continual nerf to coercers.

[Dasein]

There will not be a need for crowd control at a general level because the EQ2 system is not set up with the intent that 2 classes from a single archtype now become essential for gameplay. Really, all this would do is turn chanters into the FOTM class, and then at higher levels you'd see a glut of chanters with no place on a raid because like tanks, only 1 or 2 would be needed, while every group would need one.

[Maroger]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>There will not be a need for crowd control at a general level because the EQ2 system is not set up with the intent that 2 classes from a single archtype now become essential for gameplay. Really, all this would do is turn chanters into the FOTM class, and then at higher levels you'd see a glut of chanters with no place on a raid because like tanks, only 1 or 2 would be needed, while every group would need one.</blockquote><p>And you think this justifies the continual nerfing of coercers -- maybe they should hit the illustionists up for a handful of nerfs. Coercers are getting nerfed every LU.  </p><p>A certain developer has turned coercers into the weakest and most useless class in the game. When I think how great my EQ1 Enchanter was -- I fail to understand what went wrong in EQ2 - The class was totaly destroyed in EQ2.</p>

[Noaani]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>There will not be a need for crowd control at a general level because the EQ2 system is not set up with the intent that 2 classes from a single archtype now become essential for gameplay. Really, all this would do is turn chanters into the FOTM class, and then at higher levels you'd see a glut of chanters with no place on a raid because like tanks, only 1 or 2 would be needed, while every group would need one.</blockquote><p>You are right in that they will never make heroic content need CC, but there is no reason at all they can not make it needed for epic fights.</p><p>Adding in a few epic fights that require a decient amount of CC (not fights that using a little CC makes easier, but fights where its NEEDED) would not cause anyone to roll up a new chanter, but would mean that they now have a use above and beyond buff bots and second rate DPS.</p><p>And yes, they can make raids that require specific classes, there are already encounters in game that require 3 different tanks, one of each class. And since raiding guilds have more chanters than they do brawlers (or brawlers and crusaders combined even), making fights that require CC is not at all a stretch.</p>

[Meirril]

<p>Have you ever done Trembling Lagoon: Meeting of the Minds?</p><p>Its a single x3 epic encounter consisting of 10 mobs which consists of 2 named tripple up mobs and 8 generic guard mobs that I believe are a single arrow up. The 8 generic mobs are respawned by the secondary tripple up. The secondary tripple up can be respawned by the primary. When your about to kill the primary he summons 4 epic x4 encounters who are also tripple up mobs and are not grouped either with the boss or with each other.</p><p>This definately seems like a great place for an enchanter. Its also a PITA of an encounter and nobody likes it. More than likely you'll loose a few people when you pull this. Its hard to stabilize. When the summoned adds show up all hell breaks loose. I don't think any enchanter could gain controll of even one of the summoned mobs before at least one healer went down. I think development gained a clue and stopped making encounters like this.</p><p> Also, all epic mobs are immune to stun/stiffle/mez for double the duration once it goes down. That is if it lands in the first place. There is no way to perma-park epic mobs in EQ2. The entire game design is against the idea of trivializing encounters via enchanter. This makes it to where the developers don't have to ask themselves: how can an enchanter bypass all this carefully laid out content?</p><p>Being able to bypass what the developer intended seems to be the number one goal of every raiding guild in existance. Its the reason that classes and items get nerfed constantly. Its the reason why epic mobs gain immunity to stuns/mez/stiffle/ect, and the reason Orb of Teleportation is on the hot rumor list of being nerfed every patch.</p><p>Having people say make epic encounters where being able to mez and stun an epic mob for 10-20 seconds is vital seems kinda pointless. Unless the differences on how long a mez lasts on an epic mob are abolished I don't see them making a vital difference in raids. If you were going to ask for anything, I'd suggest asking for abilities to protect their group from their own abilities. That would make them much more sought after on raids. (i.e. a group immunity to stuns, stiffles, mez for a short duration. A single target I'll take the stun/stiffle for you kinda thing. An ability to boost avoidance for a short duration. A debuff that causes the target to occasionally hit a random NPC. Things like this.)</p>

[Noaani]

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Have you ever done Trembling Lagoon: Meeting of the Minds?</p><p>Its a single x3 epic encounter consisting of 10 mobs which consists of 2 named tripple up mobs and 8 generic guard mobs that I believe are a single arrow up. The 8 generic mobs are respawned by the secondary tripple up. The secondary tripple up can be respawned by the primary. When your about to kill the primary he summons 4 epic x4 encounters who are also tripple up mobs and are not grouped either with the boss or with each other.</p><p>This definately seems like a great place for an enchanter. Its also a PITA of an encounter and nobody likes it. More than likely you'll loose a few people when you pull this. Its hard to stabilize. When the summoned adds show up all hell breaks loose. I don't think any enchanter could gain controll of even one of the summoned mobs before at least one healer went down. I think development gained a clue and stopped making encounters like this.</p><p> Also, all epic mobs are immune to stun/stiffle/mez for double the duration once it goes down. That is if it lands in the first place. There is no way to perma-park epic mobs in EQ2. The entire game design is against the idea of trivializing encounters via enchanter. This makes it to where the developers don't have to ask themselves: how can an enchanter bypass all this carefully laid out content?</p><p>Being able to bypass what the developer intended seems to be the number one goal of every raiding guild in existance. Its the reason that classes and items get nerfed constantly. Its the reason why epic mobs gain immunity to stuns/mez/stiffle/ect, and the reason Orb of Teleportation is on the hot rumor list of being nerfed every patch.</p><p>Having people say make epic encounters where being able to mez and stun an epic mob for 10-20 seconds is vital seems kinda pointless. Unless the differences on how long a mez lasts on an epic mob are abolished I don't see them making a vital difference in raids. If you were going to ask for anything, I'd suggest asking for abilities to protect their group from their own abilities. That would make them much more sought after on raids. (i.e. a group immunity to stuns, stiffles, mez for a short duration. A single target I'll take the stun/stiffle for you kinda thing. An ability to boost avoidance for a short duration. A debuff that causes the target to occasionally hit a random NPC. Things like this.)</p></blockquote><p>MotM was simply a 2 tank pure DPS fight every time we did it. CC was neither needed nor particularly useful post GU#13 (pre GU#13 is a totally different story).</p><p>That encounter was not a very good example of how to design encounters with CC in mind, not with the current mechanics of CC at least.</p>

[Brigog]

Glad to see some of you feel the way that I do about CC needing its place in EQ2. Sadly it cant happen with the way things currently are. They need to really rethink how CC works on raids and moreless make it so it would be suicide not to have at least 1 chanter on a raid. Now some of you might think that I'm just saying this because I'm a coercer or an illusionist but this is far from true. I play a Bruiser but I think adding this would add an interesting aspect to the game again. With the new expansion comming out I see no better time to add something like this with all the other changes they are brining. Afterall, they seem to be trying to make this game so much like EQ1 with epic quests / same zones / same classes (just elaborated) so why not bring back all the needs there were for the classes to this game again.

[Leemeg]

I also would love to see more crowd control in the game. But, I can see its hard to do without either trivializes the content or making a CC class absolute needed. Both are something I don't want to see either.Currently the need of CC is only needed in very few zones, or situations (fighting something that is too high for the group, or non-ideal group setup). But in those situation that CC is actual needed, its fun <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[TaleraRis]

I was a member of the Holy Trinity in Live (Enchanter) and while I love nothing more than locking down 8+ mobs so they're standing around drooling on themselves, the absolute need to have certain classes for groups was just crippling. It completely left out creativity and good tactics making a successful group and put it all down to having essential classes with the rest just hangers on. If they could implement CC needs without this happening, I would be all for it. Needing CC makes a group think and plan instead of just AoEing everything. But if it led to the Holy Trinity syndrome again, I would have to be against it.

[Armawk]

<p>I can completely support a suggestion that cc classes could be more useful.. that they could be used to make some fights easier etc. But we cant be having them be essential for content. No way no how thank you very much indeedy.</p><p>As for the pathing back aggro.. it basically makes all but some classes unplayable. Got FD? you win. Got stealth? You might do okay. Got neither? Go home.</p>

[Kram337]

I full heartedly agree!In CastleMM there is a need to have a chanter. You can make it without one but if you make mistakes you're screwed. The whole thing of eq1 chanters was "bring order to chaotic situations". I really wish thats what they did in eq2 as well. And not just in one zone.On another note, if CC becomes important they need to give Bards CC abilities. Like the mez they had in eq1, and charm as well. I dont play a bard but it angers me to know they can't mez or charm. (8-10 sec mez doesn't count).

[Zaci]

<p>Personally, I agree, they need to make chanters useful like they were in eq1. Alsom while group content like cov, oob, hof, [Removed for Content] like that should be just kinda grab and go, but hard content like cmm or highly scripted things like Unrest or nek 3 I have no problem making them require some form of crowd control. Only problem is that troubies can provide both types of cc while illys and coercers offer only one, and they offer more than just cc. Unless they make them VERY invovled encounters, I would bring a troub... </p><p>The moral of the story being make encounters actually difficult and nerf those dps machine troubies<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Blumfield]

<div><p>Sigh.  Not to interrupt the femaledogfest.  But I save raid wipes all the time with my CC abilities.  Stunning mobs for 1.7 seconds may not seem like long, but it's an eternity when the tank's health is in the red.  That's long enough to get him back to green.  Other examples:  Thought snap, sever hate, AE daze (most of a mob's dps is autoattack)... and so forth.  The thing about EQ2 CC is that it's not flashy.  Nobody seems to know what the Coercer's doing.  But <i>I</i> know that I'm saving people's behinds--any of you warlocks grab aggro for half a second, then see the mob suddenly shoot back to the tank?  No, the tank didn't just land a taunt.  That's the coercer. </p>You may not know what your enchanter's doing, but hopefully he does.  </div>

[Tae]

Firstly, as mentioned, enchanters do pretty well. Secondly there are three level 70 coercers on Venekor. Three. Don't make it even harder for us to raid by requiring us to get more, thanks.