STOP THE EVERCAMP -- THIS IS EVERQUEST!!!

[XenoSage]

<p>Oh this is definately a problem for sure. As of last night I got so fed up with just the "Sage CAMP" alone that I ended up sending a nice warm-hearted petition to SoE about their future game design plans that will end EQ2 quicker than a flame doused in water.</p><p> No one wants to spend their time off from work or eat up vacation time to play a game that requires camping a mob for 6+ hours with the possibilities of:</p><p>     1. Chance for PH (placeholder)     2. Chance for wood chest     3. Chance for Ornate chest (but no legs inside)     4. Chance for Ornate chest (with legs inside)     5. Chance for Ornate chest (book inside)     6. Chance for Ornate chest (cloak inside)</p><p>6 different chances at the minimum based off their "Random Algorithm", with the Ornate chests possibly having legs and those other items included. What boggles me is why aren't these legs placed into an instanced zone like the rest of the armor? What made SoE come up with a decision to start placing in Named NPC's that groups have to camp for? Isn't this what ended EQ1? Yes it is AND pretty much went downhill after Planes of Power.</p><p>I figured EQ2 was in the direction of getting away from camping named NPC's with the instances that were supposed to be "The way of the future generation MMO". Yet they're pulling problems up from the passed that's going to dishearten players from the game completly. I should not be forced to play a game of "LUCK" when this is supposed to be a game of "ACCOMPLISHMENTS" and "ENJOYMENT" when grouping with other players, that's what everyone is paying their $15 for. I didn't buy these expansions and come back to EQ2 to say "Oh goody, a random named camp spawn for random loot with a random 13-18 minute timer, that "RANDOMLY" may drop legs depending on what the game "RANDOMLY" decides to do." </p><p>No it does NOT work that way.</p><p>I hope SoE realizes what they are doing to the game before RoK comes out, because I can guarantee in RoK there are going to be MORE random named camp spawns if this issue is not brought to a close NOW, and if not then we will be back to the days of: SAGE CAMPED, WIZARD CAMPED, w/e CAMPED -- or back into the point of fighting for named camp spawns, or camp stealing, etc. These were the griefing problems in EQ1, why are the devs so stupid? They obviously never played EQ1 to understand the concept of why instances were created, to make it enjoyable and fair to everyone for a piece of loot that is CONFIRMED to drop, yet random based on group make up.</p><p>or heck just make the Class-Set Gear a quest for each piece, that's why its called "EVERQUEST" and not "EVERCAMP" and add some "LORE" to it instead of adding the lore of "Ok, let's see how long you can stay sane while trying to get your own set of legs and watch everyone else around you get them before you ever will.", or get rid of the wooden chest and make it a confirmed Ornate chest, but that still does not solve the problem for "Camping and Camp Stealing". Instancing would be much more preferred with a confirmed drop rate. This is not just about the legs, but any loot that is camped for everything Prior EoF was part of a quest.</p>

[Dasein]

The Sage is not explicitly needed for any quest update. Rather, the player base has decided that they see it as necessary to camp the Sage, and really the Sage alone, for certain items. I do not see what you want SOE to do about this.

[infa]

a) nobody's making you camp sage. plenty of other things to do in game, forego the item in question.b) eq1 isn't "ended".c) "Everquest" is just a name. It doesn't mean you have to quest for everything. A Dodge Ram is not really a ram. It's just a name. Don't get hung up on it.

[Bendare]

This is the kind of mechanics many hardcore EQ1 vets like to see. We enjoy camping things, we enjoy an organized system of loot, etc. We like knowing where items come from, how to get them, and getting them. The system in EQ1 where camps were involved was a good one. People, more times then not, respected the camps and when it was camped, didnt bother the camper. Try finding that now in mmos..doesnt exist.Long story short, I interpreted this post as criticizing a game because of it's similarity to EQ1. That's madness in my humble opinion. If anything, criticize it for not being enough like EQ1. Not a day goes by in the last few years where someone hasn't said to me, "I wish there was a game out now more like EQ1".There's a reason for that, I think.

[Cathars]

See how instancing everything has given people a distorted sense of entitlement?  Move around the zone and kill other stuff.  If you choose to stay there and camp a spawn, the boredom is your own doing.  It can't drop every time without flooding the game world with pants.

[XenoSage]

Your missing the point completly. Sure I don't "NEED" to camp Sage, I don't "NEED" upgrade my gear, what are my alternatives then? What's the point of playing when your choice of upgrading gear is "Camping" a mob? I don't see any other mob dropping Class Set leggings. What do you suggest me to do to upgrade my gear? RAID: What if grouping is my only option... BUY IT: what if I'm on a server that doesn't have an overflowing item-base of the legs for sale on the broker. What are my options then to upgrade? huh? I'd like to hear it. This game is all focused around gear and upgrading, what "Else" am I supposed to do? Grind out grey quests for no apparent reason? Ya, that just sounds like a grand fun idea, No thanks.Sure I could cancel my subscription and completly not deal with it at all, but that does not solve the problem that is forthcoming in RoK.EQ1 isn't dead, but it's hardly breathing, have you played it? Do you remember the "Camping Days" in EQ1, where every time you turn a corner someone is camping some name or timed the named to come back to it, and boom it gets stolen by someone else.and comparing a game to a truck is hardly a reasonable comparison. I'm hung up over the situat ion because this is the only place I can upgrade m y gear to a decent item, and I'm sure there are people that will agree with me on that."The Sage is not explicitly needed for any quest update. Rather, the player base has decided that they see it as necessary to camp the Sage, and really the Sage alone, for certain items. I do not see what you want SOE to do about this."My point isn't saying Sage is needed for a quest, my point is why not involve it into a quest-line, making the reward the Class/Set legs instead of camping for them? Doesn't that sound like a grand idea?

[XenoSage]

<cite>Catharsis wrote:</cite><blockquote>See how instancing everything has given people a distorted sense of entitlement?  Move around the zone and kill other stuff.  If you choose to stay there and camp a spawn, the boredom is your own doing.  It can't drop every time without flooding the game world with pants.</blockquote>Make them No Drop, No Trade, No Value. Ends the flood on the market.

[interstellarmatter]

I'm confused.  When did they change the name of the game?

[XenoSage]

<cite>Bendare wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is the kind of mechanics many hardcore EQ1 vets like to see. We enjoy camping things, we enjoy an organized system of loot, etc. We like knowing where items come from, how to get them, and getting them. The system in EQ1 where camps were involved was a good one. People, more times then not, respected the camps and when it was camped, didnt bother the camper. Try finding that now in mmos..doesnt exist.Long story short, I interpreted this post as criticizing a game because of it's similarity to EQ1. That's madness in my humble opinion. If anything, criticize it for not being enough like EQ1. Not a day goes by in the last few years where someone hasn't said to me, "I wish there was a game out now more like EQ1".There's a reason for that, I think.</blockquote>The camping system is similar to EQ1, that's what I'm criticizing, this game is supposed to benefit the casual player for those who cannot raid to upgrade gear. Having to pre-set 6hrs of my time ahead of schedule to camp a spawn is not my idea of fun, and you cannot even get into a group for the spawn unless you have 3hrs of time to spend there, otherwise they won't group you.

[MOJOPHREAKY]

<p>1) I'm relatively sure my old EQLive guild is still raiding...Demi-Plane of Blood I beleive right now...I guess I should inform them and thier 97 guild members that they don't exist anymore?</p><p>2) I spent 2 days played time, that's 48 hours of RL time, camping the shard in Maiden's eye for my VT key in EQLive. No one made me do it. I did it because I wanted the key badly enough to do it. </p><p>Put in the time or don't, those are your choices. Sorry you weren't handed Uber_Armor_Set_0x each time you entered a new tier.</p><p>I came back to the game relatively recently and started over from scratch to learn all of the game changes. I've had to turn off combat experience many times now so I'd stop leveling past my quests. Don't feed me any line about things being difficult in this game. There has to be a comparable armor peice that wont cause you to get your panties in a wad.</p><p>And yes the game does work that way. You can camp it until it drops or you can do something else. </p><p>Finally I'm quite sure that you are indeed the first person to inform SOE of thier terrible mismanagement and have brilliant, nigh godly suggestions that they will all praise and remember you for eternally. You may even get a plaque on the SOE washroom wall. Because thats the best way to get change initiated, complain that the people in charge are intellectually deficient and thier ideas are moronic.</p>

[Bendare]

<cite>XenoSage wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your missing the point completly. Sure I don't "NEED" to camp Sage, I don't "NEED" upgrade my gear, what are my alternatives then? What's the point of playing when your choice of upgrading gear is "Camping" a mob? I don't see any other mob dropping Class Set leggings. What do you suggest me to do to upgrade my gear? RAID: What if grouping is my only option... BUY IT: what if I'm on a server that doesn't have an overflowing item-base of the legs for sale on the broker. What are my options then to upgrade? huh? I'd like to hear it. This game is all focused around gear and upgrading, what "Else" am I supposed to do? Grind out grey quests for no apparent reason? Ya, that just sounds like a grand fun idea, No thanks.Sure I could cancel my subscription and completly not deal with it at all, but that does not solve the problem that is forthcoming in RoK.EQ1 isn't dead, but it's hardly breathing, have you played it? Do you remember the "Camping Days" in EQ1, where every time you turn a corner someone is camping some name or timed the named to come back to it, and boom it gets stolen by someone else.and comparing a game to a truck is hardly a reasonable comparison. I'm hung up over the situat ion because this is the only place I can upgrade m y gear to a decent item, and I'm sure there are people that will agree with me on that."The Sage is not explicitly needed for any quest update. Rather, the player base has decided that they see it as necessary to camp the Sage, and really the Sage alone, for certain items. I do not see what you want SOE to do about this."My point isn't saying Sage is needed for a quest, my point is why not involve it into a quest-line, making the reward the Class/Set legs instead of camping for them? Doesn't that sound like a grand idea?</blockquote>There are many options for gear. The MMO comparison these days is WoW, so I'll use it as an example. WoW's top end gear is only obtainable through raiding. If you arent on an A list, forget it. Every other game is pretty much like that. But games like EQ1 gave ya some options. Be thankful there is a spawn out there you can solo to get gear, you wont find that in many other games.More to the point. You do not like camping Sage for an item? Fine...go kill other stuff for items. Sell those items, buy what the sage drops. I did this a lot in EQ1 when the item I wanted was overcamped. I'd go camp less camped mobs, sell their drops, buy the drop I orig. wanted. I also camped mobs and sold their plunder to afford the things I couldnt camp alone. The whole bright spot in these games is it allows the players to accomplish things on their own. EQ1 was famous because it's combat system was designed in a way that anything was possible..anything. Now EQ2 has certainly moved away from this, but some things are still possible. You can choose to camp that item to better yourself or you can choose to raid or you can choose to camp other things, sell them, and buy the item you orig. wanted. On your server you say there isnt many legs to buy. Well then, you got a honey of a opportunity. Camp those legs..pair for yourself..then start selling other pairs. Make a bundle. MMOs are about combat and crafting and lore. But underneath everything, the player wants money. I'd use that lack of pants economy to my advantage. I know it's hard to understand camping 6hrs for a mob, but if you just walked in and spent an hour every day getting pants, they arent worth too much. One of the most important parts of camping items is difficulty. I feel much more proud to wear an item I worked for then one I didnt.Edit after reading more replies: No Drop itemization was one of the worst inventions ever. It does more harm then good. It's second only to instancing in pitifulness. Criticizing the camping system seems a bit off to me. I cannot understand how you feel that giving people the opportunity to aquire nice items via camps isnt casual. Lets make the game more like the new generation MMOs. The only way you can obtain your no drop goodness is to join a raid guild, spend months getting in their core group, then spend another month or two earning the dkp to purchase the drops during raids. Not to mention the 5+hrs per night your spending in said raid grp. That sounds much more casual to me.....A 6hr camp to get a nice item is casual enough. If nice items were acquirable though 10minutes of killing, then those nice items have no unique factor. Everyone has them...that imbalances things quite a bit.

[Lasai]

<cite>Bendare wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is the kind of mechanics many hardcore EQ1 vets like to see. We enjoy camping things, we enjoy an organized system of loot, etc. We like knowing where items come from, how to get them, and getting them. The system in EQ1 where camps were involved was a good one. People, more times then not, respected the camps and when it was camped, didnt bother the camper. Try finding that now in mmos..doesnt exist.Long story short, I interpreted this post as criticizing a game because of it's similarity to EQ1. That's madness in my humble opinion. If anything, criticize it for not being enough like EQ1. Not a day goes by in the last few years where someone hasn't said to me, "I wish there was a game out now more like EQ1".There's a reason for that, I think.</blockquote><p>Um now I am confused.  Isn't there a game called EQ1 that is remarkably similer to EQ1?  Maybe even the same game?  I mean, EQ1 would be just like EQ1, identical in fact.</p>

[infa]

<cite>XenoSage wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your missing the point completly. Sure I don't "NEED" to camp Sage, I don't "NEED" upgrade my gear, what are my alternatives then? What's the point of playing when your choice of upgrading gear is "Camping" a mob? I don't see any other mob dropping Class Set leggings. What do you suggest me to do to upgrade my gear? RAID: What if grouping is my only option... BUY IT: what if I'm on a server that doesn't have an overflowing item-base of the legs for sale on the broker. What are my options then to upgrade? huh? I'd like to hear it. This game is all focused around gear and upgrading, what "Else" am I supposed to do? Grind out grey quests for no apparent reason? Ya, that just sounds like a grand fun idea, No thanks.Sure I could cancel my subscription and completly not deal with it at all, but that does not solve the problem that is forthcoming in RoK.EQ1 isn't dead, but it's hardly breathing, have you played it? Do you remember the "Camping Days" in EQ1, where every time you turn a corner someone is camping some name or timed the named to come back to it, and boom it gets stolen by someone else.and comparing a game to a truck is hardly a reasonable comparison. I'm hung up over the situat ion because this is the only place I can upgrade m y gear to a decent item, and I'm sure there are people that will agree with me on that."The Sage is not explicitly needed for any quest update. Rather, the player base has decided that they see it as necessary to camp the Sage, and really the Sage alone, for certain items. I do not see what you want SOE to do about this."My point isn't saying Sage is needed for a quest, my point is why not involve it into a quest-line, making the reward the Class/Set legs instead of camping for them? Doesn't that sound like a grand idea?</blockquote>in regards to what i suggest for upgrading your gear if you don't want to camp sage, i guess i suggest you upgrade a different slot and deal with not upgrading your legs or you choose a different item for your legs that you consider an upgrade. so far you've identified a lot things that aren't acceptable to you for a legslot upgrade. you don't want to camp, you don't want to raid, and you don't want to buy.i guess it's all about action and consequences in the end. if you choose not to do the above (action), then you are in the situation you're in (consequence).you don't get to say "i don't want to goto school, but i still want a degree, so instead i'm going to count chickens and get a degree". there's a defined system for getting a degree, and if you want it you adhere to that system.  the system isn't changing because you don't have the time or incentive to adhere to it.same for your legs, i suppose.

[XenoSage]

<cite>infa wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>XenoSage wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your missing the point completly. Sure I don't "NEED" to camp Sage, I don't "NEED" upgrade my gear, what are my alternatives then? What's the point of playing when your choice of upgrading gear is "Camping" a mob? I don't see any other mob dropping Class Set leggings. What do you suggest me to do to upgrade my gear? RAID: What if grouping is my only option... BUY IT: what if I'm on a server that doesn't have an overflowing item-base of the legs for sale on the broker. What are my options then to upgrade? huh? I'd like to hear it. This game is all focused around gear and upgrading, what "Else" am I supposed to do? Grind out grey quests for no apparent reason? Ya, that just sounds like a grand fun idea, No thanks.Sure I could cancel my subscription and completly not deal with it at all, but that does not solve the problem that is forthcoming in RoK.EQ1 isn't dead, but it's hardly breathing, have you played it? Do you remember the "Camping Days" in EQ1, where every time you turn a corner someone is camping some name or timed the named to come back to it, and boom it gets stolen by someone else.and comparing a game to a truck is hardly a reasonable comparison. I'm hung up over the situat ion because this is the only place I can upgrade m y gear to a decent item, and I'm sure there are people that will agree with me on that."The Sage is not explicitly needed for any quest update. Rather, the player base has decided that they see it as necessary to camp the Sage, and really the Sage alone, for certain items. I do not see what you want SOE to do about this."My point isn't saying Sage is needed for a quest, my point is why not involve it into a quest-line, making the reward the Class/Set legs instead of camping for them? Doesn't that sound like a grand idea?</blockquote>in regards to what i suggest for upgrading your gear if you don't want to camp sage, i guess i suggest you upgrade a different slot and deal with not upgrading your legs or you choose a different item for your legs that you consider an upgrade. so far you've identified a lot things that aren't acceptable to you for a legslot upgrade. you don't want to camp, you don't want to raid, and you don't want to buy.i guess it's all about action and consequences in the end. if you choose not to do the above (action), then you are in the situation you're in (consequence).you don't get to say "i don't want to goto school, but i still want a degree, so instead i'm going to count chickens and get a degree". there's a defined system for getting a degree, and if you want it you adhere to that system.  the system isn't changing because you don't have the time or incentive to adhere to it.same for your legs, i suppose. </blockquote><p>I love how you relate real-world context to a game, it's so... pointless.</p><p>"you don't get to say "i don't want to goto school, but i still want a degree, so instead i'm going to count chickens and get a degree". there's a defined system for getting a degree, and if you want it you adhere to that system.  the system isn't changing because you don't have the time or incentive to adhere to it."</p><p>Cmon quit that now, earning a degree is worth getting because it upgrades your status in life. Getting an item in EQ2 doesn't. Why would I adhere to paying an insane amount of pp for the legs? That's just stupid, and it's not like I wouldn't pay for them, it's just I can't because there are none on the broker. I didn't say I "DID NOT" want to raid. I said what if you "COULDN'T", there's a difference. Group activities are supposed to cater to the casual player, right? anyone can get a group together, but based on the circumstances I mentioned above especially with a camped spawn how is that supposed to be accomplished?</p>

[Bendare]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bendare wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is the kind of mechanics many hardcore EQ1 vets like to see. We enjoy camping things, we enjoy an organized system of loot, etc. We like knowing where items come from, how to get them, and getting them. The system in EQ1 where camps were involved was a good one. People, more times then not, respected the camps and when it was camped, didnt bother the camper. Try finding that now in mmos..doesnt exist.Long story short, I interpreted this post as criticizing a game because of it's similarity to EQ1. That's madness in my humble opinion. If anything, criticize it for not being enough like EQ1. Not a day goes by in the last few years where someone hasn't said to me, "I wish there was a game out now more like EQ1".There's a reason for that, I think.</blockquote><p>Um now I am confused.  Isn't there a game called EQ1 that is remarkably similer to EQ1?  Maybe even the same game?  I mean, EQ1 would be just like EQ1, identical in fact.</p></blockquote>Sorry I confused you. What I meant, and I should have been more clear, is there are no new games using the system I described that many EQ1 vets enjoyed so much. Yes I'm aware EQ1 still exists, though it is vastly different now then it used to be. But I certainly do not want to get into that conversation as I'm sure it's been thrown around quite a bit on these forums. Sorry about that.

[infa]

you can determine that your out of game status is worth more than your in game status.you have that right.someone else might determine that their in game status is more valuable to them.who are you to judge them?you see, as self righteous as you want to be... it's really NOT all about you in the end. the systems (in or out of game) are not designed around your needs.there's a system in place. either adhere to it or find an alternative.all things in life are like this.

[nihilux]

<cite>infa wrote:</cite><blockquote>you can determine that your out of game status is worth more than your in game status.you have that right.someone else might determine that their in game status is more valuable to them.who are you to judge them?you see, as self righteous as you want to be... it's really NOT all about you in the end. the systems (in or out of game) are not designed around your needs.there's a system in place. either adhere to it or find an alternative.all things in life are like this. </blockquote>QFE.

[ULYSA]

<p>Personally, I like camps.  It forces you to cooperate with other players to accomplish something you're unable to do on your own.  I remember camping the FBSS for my paladin for weeks in EQ, and finally winning one that dropped.  Great memories. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </p><p> Ideally, there should be content for every playstyle, and EQII has that.  Skip camping items if you don't think it's fun.</p><p>~Ulysa</p>

[Sekhau]

<p>I'd appreciate more Class specific Armor Quests, instead of relying on Camps / Randomness.</p><p>As a side note though:</p><p> Comparisons aren't exclusive to the context in which they're given. What I mean by that is:</p><p> It's appropriate to 'relate real-world context to a game". </p><p> Reason being... </p><p><b><i>#1.</i></b> The real world <i><b>subject</b></i> is being compared to <i><b>it's</b></i> real world <i><b>context.</b></i></p><p><b><i>#2.</i></b> The game world <i><b>subject</b></i> is being compared to <i><b>it's</b></i> game world <i><b>context.</b></i></p><p>Here's the weird part...</p><p>The <b><i>point</i></b> of #1 <i><b>is being compared with</b></i> the <b><i>point</i></b> of #2.</p><p>In other words .... the comparisons are relative to eachother, <b><i>NOT the subject matter of each individual comparison</i></b>.</p><p>When taking or preparing for those dreaded S.A.T.'s from my youth, the concept would be expressed as, "Subject_1 is to Context_1 as Subject_2 is to Context_2". ... It's the "as" that's important.</p><p>Note: Servers are down, somebody save me from myself!</p>

[Cmos]

not sure if anyone has said this... (i didn't read the whole thread) but... You do realize that in the contested zones that drop the class armor gear, there is more then one mob that has a chance to drop the class piece?

[Leatherneck]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Sage is not explicitly needed for any quest update. </blockquote>And what about quests where you DO have to camp mobs (or also commonly areas where the mob might pop)?  Camping, in my opinion, pretty much sucks.

[Leatherneck]

<cite>Catharsis wrote:</cite><blockquote>See how instancing everything has given people a distorted sense of entitlement?  Move around the zone and kill other stuff.  If you choose to stay there and camp a spawn, the boredom is your own doing.  It can't drop every time without flooding the game world with pants.</blockquote>Or...you know...the mechanic for getting gear could be, frankly, improved.  Make a quest of appropriate length for equivalent gear to the camp sitting time.  Some people will quest it, some people will camp it.

[erin]

<cite>Bendare wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is the kind of mechanics many hardcore EQ1 vets like to see. We enjoy camping things, we enjoy an organized system of loot, etc. We like knowing where items come from, how to get them, and getting them. The system in EQ1 where camps were involved was a good one. People, more times then not, respected the camps and when it was camped, didnt bother the camper. Try finding that now in mmos..doesnt exist.</blockquote>Sorry but EQ2 is nothing like EQ1.  I can remember, quite literally, doing 18 hour camps in EQ1.  Where we'd take turns camping it and whoever would log in the char that needed it.  Team effort.  I've never camped anything in EQ2 for more than a couple of hours.  Even sage, by the time you get there, then camp for couple hours, usually 1 or more people have to go.People don't want to camp for hours on end (except a very small minority).  For those folks that do, there's EQ1.

[Leatherneck]

<cite>ULYSA wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Personally, I like camps.  It forces you to cooperate with other players to accomplish something you're unable to do on your own. </p></blockquote><p>I understand your point and respectfully disagree.  I play the game for fun.  I don't want to be "forced" into anything that I don't consider fun.</p><p>I don't consider camping an item fun.  I don't consider camping a mob fun.  Why would I consider being forced into camping fun?</p>

[steelblueangel]

<p>I agree with the OP. In fact camping is an old style of programing and has become history in most all modern MMO games. Most modern MMO's have instance zones for named npc's instead of place holders and long spawn timer rates. </p><p>In fact, I can't recall the name of the dev but in an interview, he stated that eq2 would be moving away from camping named; however, it is obvious that camping is still a must in this game. It was notes from a pod interview I believe if someone wants to search for it. The dev also agreed in this interview that long camps or spawning named was old school. This pod post may have been posted less than a year or a year ago. </p><p>I agree that camping is boring and does not add content nor enjoyment to the game; instead, camping is only a means to slow down progress be it levels, or upgrading gear. Camping becomes an obstacle that many become frustrated with and gradually move onto other games with greater insight to the players needs and desires. I played eq1 and having to camp and compete with gamers that would steal the name after one spent hours to spawn them was one to the major reasons I left eq1. </p>

[XenoSage]

I can agree with that Erin. In the past 4 days I've camped in various groups for the sage of a total of 34hrs. Every new group I join needs legs, so thats 4-5 more people I get to watch get legs. I've only seen the legs drop once for Monk and that was 2 nights ago and we had 2 monks in our group, so there were better odds, but the Monk that had just joined the group not but an hour into it won the legs. Where's my compensation for the time I've spent there? That's what is not fun for me.When people get their legs, they don't wanna go back to that crappy camp. I've had people promise me, "Oh I'll help ya camp it tomorrow", Tomorrow comes and goes and no help. WHY? Cuz no one likes camping that spawn, it's a waste of time. Not everyone has a guild that already has the legs that will come assist to just get one drop, but thats pretty much what it is going to take to get it done. So instead of wasting 3-6hrs your just wasting 3 - 4 spawns or so, about an hour tops at 15min intervals.Then when people do get their legs, they leave the group about a half an hour later or so, and it starts all over again. Tell me the fun in that, please do, because if you see fun in that you're mentally crazy. So in that regard 34hrs is equal to EQ1 style camping locations.Remember the Pegasus spawn in EQ1 for mage epic for the cloak? What'd it take 15 hrs for it to spawn or spawn a placeholder? and it had a rare chance of dropping the cloak? Took 3 weeks to even get that piece; while timing that spawn and trying to intercept it between school and crap.

[Frigid2000]

<p>I'm sorry, but this is the dumbest post ever. I can think of only a handful of mobs in the entire game that require to be camped. They even changed the entire Claymore line to where their placeholders give updates now.</p><p>There are bigger things in this game that need to be looked at. Stop whining over the little things.</p>

[XenoSage]

<cite>Cyque@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm sorry, but this is the dumbest post ever. I can think of only a handful of mobs in the entire game that require to be camped. They even changed the entire Claymore line to where their placeholders give updates now.</p><p>There are bigger things in this game that need to be looked at. Stop whining over the little things.</p></blockquote>This issue is just as important as any of the other "Bigger" issues, what is it for you to judge as a big issue? Population judges that, not one individual and as you can see I'm not the only one that dislikes the situation with camped spawns.

[Leatherneck]

<cite>Cyque@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>There are bigger things in this game that need to be looked at. Stop whining over the little things.</p></blockquote><p>At this point, camping is my single biggest SOE-responsible irritation in the game.</p>

[Zent]

Honestly, if you've gotten your character to the point that the Sage's armor drops are the only thing that will be an upgrade for you, do you really think SOE is going to just hand you the upgrade on a silver platter?Actually having to earn an upgrade... novel concept.

[sceptember]

I couldn't agree more with the original poster on most of his points. Today, we have tons of information to use as reference when making an MMO. Instancing and no-trade itemization was a step in the right direction in regards to avoiding some enjoyment-breaking systems such as camping. Just as locking encounters was a step in the right direction to counter kill-stealing.The decision to make Sage drop a class-specific armor piece, and have this take place in a shared dungeon seems like completely disregarding the years of readily available game mechanic experience. It's a step backwards, and a seemingly big one.

[Leatherneck]

<cite>Zent wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly, if you've gotten your character to the point that the Sage's armor drops are the only thing that will be an upgrade for you, do you really think SOE is going to just hand you the upgrade on a silver platter?Actually having to earn an upgrade... novel concept.</blockquote>That's nice.  However that's not what people are saying.  Nobody is asking to be able to /claim it, nor any other mechanism SOE might use to grant the item.  From what I have read, people are happy to earn it.  Camping an item, fortunately, is not the only way to earn something.

[Tiernu]

<span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-family: georgia,palatino;"><i><b></b></i></span></span><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-family: georgia,palatino;"><i><b>  "</b></i></span></span><span style="font-size: small;"><i><b><span style="font-family: georgia,palatino;" class="postbody">You don't get to say "i don't want to goto school, but i still want a degree, so instead i'm going to count chickens and get a degree."          Hahaha! I love the chicken degree quote,, btw, is that a Bachelors or a Masters degree?? </span><span style="font-family: georgia,palatino;"><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></span></b></i></span>

[Iseabeil]

<p>Ill have to agree with OP to some degree. Im fortunate in that I dont 'need' any of the legendary class sets since Im able to get the fabled instead, but Ive tried get the legendary for fun, and for alts. Sure, some slots are really easie to get, boots and bracers come to mind, but if they can put both hat and chest in unrest, surely they could find somewhere to squeeze in legs. The other day I saw someone paying 5p for each person *with* their pants to camp sage with him so he could get his, and every day I see folk in channel asking about sage camp, and theres always the reply 'sage is camped'. If there is a group camping him atleast 75% of the time the servers are up, its pretty hard for random person #8 to get a chance to even camp him. imo its pretty ridiculous.</p><p>How about this? Since so many seem to love making it 'hard' to get a full set, why not ask them to move chest and leg pieces from mayong and wuoshi and out chest on PHH and legs on shared avatar loot table. Afterall, why should it be easier, to get fabled set pieces then legendary? Not to mention the fact that every raid of ca 24 persons can get 2 fabled leg pieces every week (a bit more often if not havin it scheduled to certain day) and you are guaranteed to get them if you kill wuoshi. With RNG being what it is, you can theoretically spend as much time camping the sage as it takes to clear EH and not get pants... Thats pretty darn funny really, aint it? I dont really care all that much how they do it, but I do feel bad for those that do.</p>

[wepps]

<cite>infa wrote:</cite><blockquote>c) "Everquest" is just a name. It doesn't mean you have to quest for everything. A Dodge Ram is not really a ram. It's just a name. Don't get hung up on it.</blockquote>A KIA, though, is the most appropriately named vehicle in existence.

[liveja]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Sage is not explicitly needed for any quest update. Rather, the player base has decided that they see it as necessary to camp the Sage, and really the Sage alone, for certain items. I do not see what you want SOE to do about this.</blockquote><p>I very rarely ever agree with Dasein, but this time, I'm feeling compelled to.</p><p>I would not object, however, if the legendary set piece the Sage drops were moved to an instance mob, rather than a contested one.</p>

[Mion da Peon]

I think its great that they are trying to appeal to a wide range of play styles.  Keep the camps in! This <u>is</u> Evercrack after all not World of Weaksauce.

[Vatec]

<cite>Bendare wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is the kind of mechanics many hardcore EQ1 vets like to see. We enjoy camping things, we enjoy an organized system of loot, etc. We like knowing where items come from, how to get them, and getting them. The system in EQ1 where camps were involved was a good one. People, more times then not, respected the camps and when it was camped, didnt bother the camper. <span style="color: #006600;">Try finding that now in mmos..doesnt exist.</span><span style="color: #993300;">With good reason.  Most people hate camping.  So far the worst experiences I've had in EQ2 have all involved camping:  camping Bloodtalon for the Dwarven Boots quest, camping Billy in the chapel for the Missing Mask quest, etc.</span>Long story short, I interpreted this post as criticizing a game because of it's similarity to EQ1. That's madness in my humble opinion. If anything, criticize it for not being enough like EQ1. <span style="color: #993300;">No, I most definitely would =not= want to see EQ2 become more like EQ1.  It was too much like EQ1 when it started and, fortunately, SOE realized that and changed it.</span>Not a day goes by in the last few years where someone hasn't said to me, "I wish there was a game out now more like EQ1".<span style="color: #993300;">Must be the people you hang out with.  No one I personally know has ever said that.</span>There's a reason for that, I think.<span style="color: #993300;">Selective memory?</span></blockquote>

[Tae]

<cite>Iseabeil wrote:</cite><blockquote>words about fabled/legendary </blockquote>I have a level 69 Berserker who I've attempted to get the class bits for just as he got towards 69. He has labs gloves before he's got the EoF set ones. Before he's even <i>seen</i> the EoF set ones. On a PvP server it's a must for an Inqui to wear the Nem Ankh set for the 33% casting speed buff. Therefore nearly every Inquisitor will have 6 pieces of Nem Ankh on. And guess what? The vast majority of them don't have the legs on because they're practically impossible to get. I've killed the sage many many times and only ever seen him drop Novum Tectum. I've managed to complete SoD and (nearly) Claymore before seeing class legs. Surely that can't be how the EoF set is intended? I thought the idea was to make a set for people to upgrade to from Mastercrafted, not to get to hang in the wardrobe when they've already got fabled. Perhaps a solution would be to add a heroic version of the Throne of New Tunaria and drop the Legs (and perhaps the gloves) into that. The devs don't need to spend time creating a new zone, there's a reason for more people to go to Tunaria, and the camping is ended.

[Noaani]

<p>Why are people camping the sage?</p><p>Assuming you want your set legs, and are willing to put some time in to get them, why camp him?</p><p>There is so much you can do in that zone with a single group that I can not possably contemplate actually sitting in any one place camping the same mob. Its not even like you would have other groups there to steal the sage off you.</p><p>Go find other mobs and kill them, then come back to the sage. Simple. Get your legs, as well as other good stuff, all without camping, and all in the sam amount of time.</p>

[Tae]

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Why are people camping the sage?</p><p>Assuming you want your set legs, and are willing to put some time in to get them, why camp him?</p><p>There is so much you can do in that zone with a single group that I can not possably contemplate actually sitting in any one place camping the same mob. Its not even like you would have other groups there to steal the sage off you.</p><p>Go find other mobs and kill them, then come back to the sage. Simple. Get your legs, as well as other good stuff, all without camping, and all in the sam amount of time.</p></blockquote>There are plenty of other groups, some of whom may be Qs. And the zone is such a pain that it takes bloody ages to go looking at the other mobs who mostly drop rubbish anyway.

[Kaalenarc]

<p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Have to chime in and agree with the OP to some extent too.  Obviosuly when EoF came SOE wanted folks to be motivated to visit all of the new areas. So, they seeded in the class armor all around the instances. But, for whatever  reason, they made the pants not only the hardest to get, but the rarest to drop. Some folks, many in fact, like the completism of being able to get the whole set. The nice thing about most of the rest of the armor is that you can go get in in a relatively short instance. Even with unrest, you can power through in a couple hours. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">The gloves in Kaladim notwithstanding, the pants are an integral part of the set, and should drop in an instance. If all the other pieces were contested thats one thing, but they arent. Additionally - the instances get progressively harder, so u do kaladim, you go do OOB, Valdoons, Unrest... got all your stuff, geared up and head off to get your pants only to find out that the same group has been camping the room the sage is in for SIX HOURS straight on a saturday night and you cant get at it. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Yeah, its "contested." Read that as "SOE says its OK to compete but the entire server will berate you if you invade someones camp" Make the drop rate whatever you want, but please end the camping. Personally Id love to see things like class armor rewards be the end of a quest within each instance. So we wouldnt HAVE to repeat over and over ad nauseum. More and varied loot in each area would keep ppl comin back.</span></p>

[jarlaxle8]

<p>Although my personal preference is questing, it applies there as well: Camps suck, nothing else. Camp = time wasted doing nothing. And that does not equal challenge.</p>

[Dagorgil]

<p>The only thing in the OP that I agree with is that the "Random Generator" really isn't all that random. lol.</p><p>Seriously... how many times can you roll 1 100 and get in the 90s?????</p>

[Norrsken]

<cite>Dagorgil@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The only thing in the OP that I agree with is that the "Random Generator" really isn't all that random. lol.</p><p>Seriously... how many times can you roll 1 100 and get in the 90s?????</p></blockquote>if you roll 1-100 100 times, you can get 90+ 100 times and still not actually prove anything about a RNG. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[madha]

<p>I agree with the op.  the sage drops realy nice stuff regardless. But since only 3 slots of the set aren't in instances it seems odd that any of the slots are on contested mobs/ring events.  Just seems like they ran out of zones to put the set slots in so they just tossed them in random areas in the game.  I hope they have enough zones in the expantion for all the legendary sets to be in instances.</p><p>And lets face it after so many instants runs you will get board and still run through shared zones to see what you can find. </p>

[Finora]

<p>Now, I'm not a person who enjoys camping stuff like that ( I had my fill of camping in EQ1 doing about 8 rez sticks for the guild and various other Kunark epic camps for other classes). However, loot like the set legs is optional. You don't have to have all 7 pieces to get the bonus, you only need 6. There are other viable alternatives to the set pants for ALL classes that are easier to get. They might not be quite as good but they don't suck.</p><p>Also, the other set pieces in contested zones drop from at LEAST 2 different monsters in the zones they are from, I've recently heard the gloves can drop from several more, but personally I can verify 2 for both gloves and sleeves. I have yet to see pants drop but I've also heard they drop from more mobs than just the Sage. </p><p>That being said, I wouldn't mind at all if quests were put in for set armor. I like to quest. However, I don't see a problem with how the EOF sets work currently either.</p>

[Naglfar]

<p>I don't see the problem neither.</p><p>Ornate/Excquisite isn't mandatory, and the more you have difficulties to drop something the more you're happy when you succeed. I believe on the "you want it, earn it" thing.</p><p>I love the general drop rate of CMM, if all instances and contested zones were like that I would be more than happy.</p>

[dhvyse000]

I have to agree completely and wholeheartedly with the poster.It is NEVER ok to camp something for 6 hours and still not have the targeted item drop.These time sinks just have to go SOE when will you learn!

[Tae]

<cite>Naglfar@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ornate/Excquisite isn't mandatory, and the more you have difficulties to drop something the more you're happy when you succeed. I believe on the "you want it, earn it" thing.</p></blockquote>Killing it 20 times and not having ANY leggings drop doesn't make me happy when it finally does drop. It makes me annoyed that I've wasted all that time when I could have been having fun. This is a game, not a job. Also, there really aren't that many plate legs better than the mastercrafted. There's the set piece, the leggings of the bloodhowler and the ones from the end claymore quests. And the bloodhowler guy, just like a lot of others, is always dropping treasure chests.

[Generic123]

<p>a) There are not that many camps in this game</p><p>b) Camps can be a great chance to bond with friends.  While the go go go style of play is great for some things it does not conducive to socializing, which is an absolutely key aspect to any MMO.</p><p>c) You are free to ignore content that doesn't fit your style of play. If you don't like camping don't do it there are plenty of other things to do. </p><p>d) At no point should *all* a games content and rewards be geared to a specific style of play.</p><p>e) It's not all about you, there are other people in the game as well and they deserve both content and rewards, so no one should come to the forums demanding that *all* the content be aimed at them and them alone. </p>

[StormCinder]

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bendare wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is the kind of mechanics many hardcore EQ1 vets like to see. We enjoy camping things, we enjoy an organized system of loot, etc. We like knowing where items come from, how to get them, and getting them. The system in EQ1 where camps were involved was a good one. People, more times then not, respected the camps and when it was camped, didnt bother the camper. Try finding that now in mmos..doesnt exist.Long story short, I interpreted this post as criticizing a game because of it's similarity to EQ1. That's madness in my humble opinion. If anything, criticize it for not being enough like EQ1. Not a day goes by in the last few years where someone hasn't said to me, "I wish there was a game out now more like EQ1".There's a reason for that, I think.</blockquote><p>Um now I am confused.  Isn't there a game called EQ1 that is remarkably similer to EQ1?  Maybe even the same game?  I mean, EQ1 would be just like EQ1, identical in fact.</p></blockquote><p>LOL.  Funniest post of the day.</p><p>SC</p>

[Kalem]

<cite>MOJOPHREAKY wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1) I'm relatively sure my old EQLive guild is still raiding...Demi-Plane of Blood I beleive right now...I guess I should inform them and thier 97 guild members that they don't exist anymore?</p><p>2) I spent 2 days played time, that's 48 hours of RL time, camping the shard in Maiden's eye for my VT key in EQLive. No one made me do it. I did it because I wanted the key badly enough to do it. </p><p>Put in the time or don't, those are your choices. Sorry you weren't handed Uber_Armor_Set_0x each time you entered a new tier.</p><p>I came back to the game relatively recently and started over from scratch to learn all of the game changes. I've had to turn off combat experience many times now so I'd stop leveling past my quests. Don't feed me any line about things being difficult in this game. There has to be a comparable armor peice that wont cause you to get your panties in a wad.</p><p>And yes the game does work that way. You can camp it until it drops or you can do something else. </p><p>Finally I'm quite sure that you are indeed the first person to inform SOE of thier terrible mismanagement and have brilliant, nigh godly suggestions that they will all praise and remember you for eternally. You may even get a plaque on the SOE washroom wall. Because thats the best way to get change initiated, complain that the people in charge are intellectually deficient and thier ideas are moronic.</p></blockquote><p>Camping does not equal difficulty...never has, and never will.  It's just a bottleneck.</p><p>I agree that gear shouldn't just be handed out every tier.  But they sure as heck can make you work for it in other ways.  Put it in an instance...a tough one at that which requires grouping, and skill to defeat.  Doable, within a reasonable amount of time.  They can make it so that the legs don't always drop...that's fine.  But at least you would be doing something, rather than sitting on your [Removed for Content].  Do you earn it that way?  But of course.  Do you feel like you accomplish something if it's done that way?  You bet.</p><p>There was some satisfaction in the camping we did in EQ1.  We wanted an item bad enough, we waisted hours upon hours.  But even back then, many of us were spewing out comments about camping not equalling difficulty...just pain.</p>

[Kaalenarc]

<cite>Naglfar@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't see the problem neither.</p><p>Ornate/Excquisite isn't mandatory, and the more you have difficulties to drop something the more you're happy when you succeed. I believe on the "you want it, earn it" thing.</p><p>I love the general drop rate of CMM, if all instances and contested zones were like that I would be more than happy.</p></blockquote><span style="color: #ffff00;">You "earn it" by killing the mob. Not killing the same mob, repeating the same task over and over endlessly. Thats monotonous not fun.  If I said you can either kill the Sage 25 times (as I did) to get your pants OR you could have 25 different named to kill, and on completion you would get the item, which would you choose? For me - Id feel more of a sense of accomplishment by goign through a long and VARIED trial, as opposed to mindless repetition every 15 minutes.</span>

[Xrazor]

<p>I totally understand what he is saying...I find it so funny that you hear people say I want more solo or a chance to find better gear or I just want to ride my horse, but it seems so complicated to give all those things.</p><p>I myself am a fighter and want to solo yet still find great gear and why can't I?</p><p>Just simply scale the game so any gear can drop from any NPC just make it random and scale it.....you have a 1,000 to 1 chance off a named, 300 to 1 off epic or 10,000 to 1 off a no named mob....that way my chances are slim to solo and get the gear, but guess what....I still have a chance! And now I am having fun.</p><p>But to play the game that fits your style and never have any chance at all is just plain stupid.</p><p>And stop saying there are plenty of things to do...God I hate that....yes some people like to travel around and look at the tree's, but not everyone....some people want to solo...so let them do what they want, just scale it so there is still a reason for group and raid.</p>