Brawler Bloodline spell - Way to keep Monks off Raids. [Archive]

Noaani

08-31-2007, 03:29 PM

<cite>Arathyen wrote:</cite><blockquote>That < 3k hit against epics is a [Removed for Content] joke. Yeah I get that you can't allow us to make manaburners jealous with our big numbers, but with all the bending over you've been making us do lately this is the icing on the cake.</blockquote>Your guild has wizards with manaburn? and they actually get invites to raids?Seems to me, at least from a raiding monks point of view, that this combat art is going from one that is not worth the space on your hotbar to a combat art that is worth using every time it is up.You people are all saying it will still not make it to your hotbar, and using it will lower your DPS. I have to ask how in gods name you figured that out.When determining how much DPS a given spell or combat art does, the only two things a melee class needs to look at are the casting time of the combat art, and how many auto attacks you would miss in that casting time.I am assuming the casting time is remaning 0.5 seconds, as no one has mentioned otherwise. If this is the case, with good timing, a monk will miss a single auto attack swing (with good timing you will likely not miss any with the coming changes to duel wielding). Now, for that half second casting time you will do about 3.5k damage to an epic mob (assuming you have enough str semi decient amount of str), that represents 7k DPS for the casting time of this particular combat art (3,500 * 0.5 = 7,000 for those that need it), and it also has the added bonus of a 10 second stifle (which seems to be a mistake if it affects epics, but that seems to be the way it is atm).Now, I havn't been on a raid with a monk for a few months, but I do not remember any of them ever hitting 7k DPS. If it is the common belief among monks that this combat art is not worth using, I am starting to see why monks are not welcome on raids, and it has nothing to do with the class.Edit: as a raiding wizard, I would kill for an attack that did 3.5k damage with a half second casting time.

mr23sgte

08-31-2007, 03:39 PM

Dev Fist stifles you for 10 seconds after you cast it........not the epic. Doing 3-3k damage and being stifled is ending up less dmg than us just chain casting our other CA's.. hope this explains everything for you.

Couching

08-31-2007, 03:39 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arathyen wrote:</cite><blockquote>That < 3k hit against epics is a [Removed for Content] joke. Yeah I get that you can't allow us to make manaburners jealous with our big numbers, but with all the bending over you've been making us do lately this is the icing on the cake.</blockquote>Your guild has wizards with manaburn? and they actually get invites to raids?Seems to me, at least from a raiding monks point of view, that this combat art is going from one that is not worth the space on your hotbar to a combat art that is worth using every time it is up.You people are all saying it will still not make it to your hotbar, and using it will lower your DPS. I have to ask how in gods name you figured that out.When determining how much DPS a given spell or combat art does, the only two things a melee class needs to look at are the casting time of the combat art, and how many auto attacks you would miss in that casting time.I am assuming the casting time is remaning 0.5 seconds, as no one has mentioned otherwise. If this is the case, with good timing, a monk will miss a single auto attack swing (with good timing you will likely not miss any with the coming changes to duel wielding). Now, for that half second casting time you will do about 3.5k damage to an epic mob (assuming you have enough str semi decient amount of str), that represents 7k DPS for the casting time of this particular combat art (3,500 * 0.5 = 7,000 for those that need it), and it also has the added bonus of a 10 second stifle (which seems to be a mistake if it affects epics, but that seems to be the way it is atm).Now, I havn't been on a raid with a monk for a few months, but I do not remember any of them ever hitting 7k DPS. If it is the common belief among monks that this combat art is not worth using, I am starting to see why monks are not welcome on raids, and it has nothing to do with the class.Edit: as a raiding wizard, I would kill for an attack that did 3.5k damage with a half second casting time.</blockquote>I can't see how you could be a raid wizard since you have no sense on dps in raid. Normal dpsers in raid can deal 2.5k-3.5k Zone wide. In other word, they did 2.5k-3.5k every SECOND in average.For DF, It's a 3 minutes reuse and did 2k-3.8k damage with stifle yourself 10 sec and costs 500 power. In average, it's only 11-16 dps zone wide. No body care how many damage you can deal in "1 sec". What they care is your TOTAL dps rather than your dps in 1sec.

Geothe

08-31-2007, 03:39 PM

The stifle is on the BRAWLER, not the epic. LOLIn addition, it costs something along the lines of 500 power to cast I believe.Moreover, it has a negative modifier on resistabilities... so there is a fair chance that it doesn't even connect at all.

Timaarit

08-31-2007, 03:47 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>When determining how much DPS a given spell or combat art does, the only two things a melee class needs to look at are the casting time of the combat art, and how many auto attacks you would miss in that casting time.-----Edit: as a raiding wizard, I would kill for an attack that did 3.5k damage with a half second casting time.</blockquote>Umm, no. What really determines how much DPS given CA or spell does, you need to look at casting time, recovery time, reuse time AND the time spent fighting within the reuse time. So a CA that does 3,5k damage with 300s reuse timer will do a bit under 12 DPS in a 5 min fight. On the other hand, if you spend 60s fighting, the it does a bit under 60 DPS.As a monk, I really could care less about an attack that had 0,5s casting time and even if it did 5k damage when it stifles you for 10s and has 5 min reuse time.

tt66

08-31-2007, 03:54 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>If it is the common belief among monks that this combat art is not worth using, I am starting to see why monks are not welcome on raids, and it has nothing to do with the class.</blockquote>Oh nice. Totally misunderstand the point and throw insults while doing it. Bravo!But again. It is a 3.5k damage hit that stifles us for 10 seconds. And costs 500 mana.The average raiding brawler does more than 350dps in terms of combat arts.Therefore, unless we are not planning on hitting the mob for the next 10 seconds (had to laugh at Aeralik's suggestions as to when to use it), we actually do less damage if we use it than if we do not.Is it now clear as to why we are upset with this change?

Noaani

08-31-2007, 04:08 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite> <blockquote>The stifle is on the BRAWLER, not the epic. LOL</blockquote>That makes more sense, it just went from wicked overpowered to something that is situationally very useful.As has been said, if used at the end of a fight, it would still consideribly increase your DPS for that fight. Assuming the mob is debuffed this CA could easily hit for 6k damage, up to maybe 8 or 9k with a good crit. (Ice Nova often crits for more than twice its listed amount after debuffs, as does Fusion). If this is use on a mob in the last 3% or so, what are you missing out on? with a recast of 5 minutes its not like you would be using it more than once on a fight anyway, so the idea is to use it when the stifle has the least amount of an impact (ie, being stifled when you are not fighting anything does not affect your DPS at all).If used in the last < 3% (usually about 5 seconds of a fight, if that), what are you missing out on? 2 seconds of auto attack swings? Do you have any other ability that would do more damage in this situation? (a situation that every raid encounter has, named, trash, they all have it).So, at the end of every second or third fight (I am assuming a guild that has monks on their raids is not moving faster than that), you have an ability to do 3k - 8k damage (6k - 16k DPS), and your complaining about it.As a secondary point, if the fight is about to end, the amount of power it uses is negligable. Assuming you have 500 power left (i can think of very few fights in game where there is even the remotest possibilaty you may not), and this ability is up, you should be using it in the last 3% or so of every fight to maximise your ZW DPS. If regening power becomes an issue between fights, start doing some of the tricks wizards have been doing since T5.Again, even with a self stifle, I would kill for an ability like this as a wizard.Edit: just read Aeraliks comments on EQ2flames, and I still fail to see why you think its such a bad CA.I could see an argument for the immunity to be taken off, much as it was asked for the manaburn immunity to be taken away in EoF beta (back when a serious raiding wizard would have considered taking it). Personally, I think giving seperate immunities for monks and brusiers would be better than removing the immunity all together. And concidering a 5 minute recast, brawlers could just as easily take turns at DF'ing mobs (much as wizards took turns manaburning back before we realised it totally sucked for raiding, or as necros do now with lifeburn).

Noaani

08-31-2007, 04:38 PM

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote>Umm, no. What really determines how much DPS given CA or spell does, you need to look at casting time, recovery time, reuse time AND the time spent fighting within the reuse time. So a CA that does 3,5k damage with 300s reuse timer will do a bit under 12 DPS in a 5 min fight. On the other hand, if you spend 60s fighting, the it does a bit under 60 DPS.As a monk, I really could care less about an attack that had 0,5s casting time and even if it did 5k damage when it stifles you for 10s and has 5 min reuse time.</blockquote>If that were the cast, Ice Nova would have a total DPS of less than Sunstrike, and no wizard in their right mind would ever cast it. I am glad the wizard community is smart enough to realise how to figure out how much DPS a spell or CA is, maybe the monk community will catch up soon.The reason recast time is not a factor is simply because while the recast is ticking away, you are able to do other things. You have more than one CA to use. When you are about to use a CA, you are restricting yourself to that one CA for the total cast time of it (and you are restricting yourself to not using other CAs for the recovery time as well, but you are still able to auto attack in that time). Thus, the time it takes to put out the damage of a given CA is purely the time it takes to cast that CA.I'll use some wizard examples as a demontration (am not able to log on atm, so I am going by some spreadsheets that are a few months old, but were accurate at the time I made them, with the gear I had on at the time).Sunstrike, damage range of 887 - 1610, average of 1248.5 per cast. 2 second casting time, 3 second recast.Ice Nova, damage range of 5378 - 9971, average of 7674.5 per cast. 4 second casting time, 45 second recast.Now, according to the "monk' way of thinking, Sunstrike is worth 249.7 DPS to a wizard, and Ice Nova is worth 156.622 DPS. If this were the actual case, no raiding wizard in their right mind would ever cast Ice Nova on a raid. It would not be DPS efficient (its not as power efficient as sunstrike either).However, the actual way to figure this out is by purely using the casting time, and totally ignoring the recast. Thus, it turns out that Ice Nova is worth 1918.625 DPS per cast, and Sunstrike is worth 624.25 DPS. As it happens, every raiding wizard in the game will tell you they cast Ice Nova as soon as it is up, in order to maximise DPS, and most will never cast sunstrike, as it is a last resort, and the lowest DPS spell in our spellbook (except for our Bloodlines spell from memory, but I am unable to log on to double check that).And one more time, for clarification, being stifled while you are waiting for the next pull will not lower your DPS at all.

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 04:52 PM

This ability went from worthless, to overpowered, nerfed down to useful but not spectacular.Useful but not spectacular. That seems to be the name of the game for bloodline abilities.The changes to this ability are not the reason monks don't or won't be top raid invite candidates.Not to mention the 10s Stifle is not a big deal. At all.Use Devastation Fist right as your Dirge fires off CoB and you swap to a fast weapon for your primary or your two hand(which in all reality you should be using instead of DWs as a monk).Bam.Maximum effectiveness.

Prrasha

08-31-2007, 04:55 PM

As a non-raider, someone will have to explain that logic to me.I am, for the purposes of this discussion, a raiding brawler. (My monk alt is level 3, bruiser alt is level 30.)I have a skill with cast time = 0.5 seconds, recovery time (due to stifle) = 10 seconds.The stifle doesn't matter because I'll only throw it to finish off a mob, and only if it's the last mob in the encounter.On a well-debuffed mob, and assuming a crit, it will do 5K-6K damage. Otherwise, 4K tops.I have heard of discussions of raidwide DPS in the 25K-35K DPS range.I am therefore supposed to be able to time a half-second cast time spell to land in the last 1/7 second of a fight, so the stifle doesn't matter? (OK, I'll count the usual half-second recovery time, and say "in the last 9/14 second of the fight.&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That's an amazing lack of lag most raiders are dealing with, then. 6-man instances mess up my 2-second long Perpetuality timers on my illusionist on occasion...

Sapphirius

08-31-2007, 04:57 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>This ability went from worthless, to overpowered, nerfed down to useful but not spectacular.Useful but not spectacular. That seems to be the name of the game for bloodline abilities.The changes to this ability are not the reason monks don't or won't be top raid invite candidates.Not to mention the 10s Stifle is not a big deal. At all.Use Devastation Fist right as your Dirge fires off CoB and you swap to a fast weapon for your primary or your two hand(which in all reality you should be using instead of DWs as a monk).Bam.Maximum effectiveness.</blockquote><chokes and walks away laughing>

Novusod

08-31-2007, 04:58 PM

The only time this will be "usefull" is if I cast it right as the mob is dying and then I don't have to fight anything else for 10 seconds. This the ONLY context I will be using this spell.

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 04:58 PM

Prrrasha, to time an ability like that to spike up your DPS you would hit it right as the mob crosses the ~3% left of HP Threshold.This gives you time to cast the CA as the rest of the raid burns the mob down the rest of the way and/or Verdict hits.

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 05:00 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>This ability went from worthless, to overpowered, nerfed down to useful but not spectacular.Useful but not spectacular. That seems to be the name of the game for bloodline abilities.The changes to this ability are not the reason monks don't or won't be top raid invite candidates.Not to mention the 10s Stifle is not a big deal. At all.Use Devastation Fist right as your Dirge fires off CoB and you swap to a fast weapon for your primary or your two hand(which in all reality you should be using instead of DWs as a monk).Bam.Maximum effectiveness.</blockquote><chokes and walks away laughing></blockquote>Looks like another person who thinks CA spam = DPS./Looks at the sand bag guild player/ignores any input they could possibly have.

Sapphirius

08-31-2007, 05:02 PM

All good in theory, but impractical in reality, but what do we know? We only played our brawlers to 70 and raid with them. We need a genious to tell us how to play our class and tell us that we <snortles> shouldn't be using dual wield weapons.

PantherXX

08-31-2007, 05:06 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>If that were the cast, Ice Nova would have a total DPS of less than Sunstrike, and no wizard in their right mind would ever cast it. I am glad the wizard community is smart enough to realise how to figure out how much DPS a spell or CA is, maybe the monk community will catch up soon. The reason recast time is not a factor is simply because while the recast is ticking away, you are able to do other things. You have more than one CA to use. When you are about to use a CA, you are restricting yourself to that one CA for the total cast time of it (and you are restricting yourself to not using other CAs for the recovery time as well, but you are still able to auto attack in that time). Thus, the time it takes to put out the damage of a given CA is purely the time it takes to cast that CA.I'll use some wizard examples as a demontration (am not able to log on atm, so I am going by some spreadsheets that are a few months old, but were accurate at the time I made them, with the gear I had on at the time).Sunstrike, damage range of 887 - 1610, average of 1248.5 per cast. 2 second casting time, 3 second recast.Ice Nova, damage range of 5378 - 9971, average of 7674.5 per cast. 4 second casting time, 45 second recast.Now, according to the "monk' way of thinking, Sunstrike is worth 249.7 DPS to a wizard, and Ice Nova is worth 156.622 DPS. If this were the actual case, no raiding wizard in their right mind would ever cast Ice Nova on a raid. It would not be DPS efficient (its not as power efficient as sunstrike either).However, the actual way to figure this out is by purely using the casting time, and totally ignoring the recast. Thus, it turns out that Ice Nova is worth 1918.625 DPS per cast, and Sunstrike is worth 624.25 DPS. As it happens, every raiding wizard in the game will tell you they cast Ice Nova as soon as it is up, in order to maximise DPS, and most will never cast sunstrike, as it is a last resort, and the lowest DPS spell in our spellbook (except for our Bloodlines spell from memory, but I am unable to log on to double check that).And one more time, for clarification, being stifled while you are waiting for the next pull will not lower your DPS at all.</blockquote>Calculating DPS based solely on casting time is ridiculous. The extreme example is to say that I do Inifnite dps every time I autoattack because autoattack has zero casting time. DPS (damage PER second) is time averaged, so the only way to look at it is over time. Soooo ... Ice Nova adds on average (7674/(4+45))=156 DPS over a fight (assuming the fight lasts at least as long as your recast). The reason you don't constantly cast Sunstrike (with an added DPS of 250) is that you could never cast anything else if you used it every time, and hence your total DPS would be 250. And if you look at how anyone else calculates DPS, this is the correct way. You are making the right choice for entirely the wrong reason.In addition, this shows you have no concept of how quick cast classes (in particular brawlers) work. Casting Dev Fist with a 10s stun is a bad idea for exactly the same reason casting Sunstrike is. It prevents us from using other abilities -- hence our DPS goes down. Plus, all the arguements that say to use this with Crane Flock and CoB or whatever buff combination you like ... I can still time CA's during that period, so the stifle is still decreasing my DPS!

Sapphirius

08-31-2007, 05:15 PM

Raiding as a monk is more than just using a big stick and wacking at things. I don't even use big sticks as I prefer my dual wields.I actually have all my arts lined up to gain the maximum effectiveness for each with attacks infront of others attacks that it will enhance, etc. I even have the timing spaced out just right so that I'm not losing the effectiveness of my auto attacks between CA downtimes, plus what few supportive things I can actually do nearby. (Too bad I don't have just a little more utility. That would be kind of nice.)That 10 second stifle is actually quite a bit of time in a fight, and it's time that I could be using to do other things in it's place. All for what? An increase in my ZW DPS of about 16? And only if I time it exactly right so it doesn't hurt my overall DPS? Plus the 500 cost to use it. Yeah. This CA won't be seeing much use from me on a raid.

Couching

08-31-2007, 05:24 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite> <blockquote>The stifle is on the BRAWLER, not the epic. LOL</blockquote>That makes more sense, it just went from wicked overpowered to something that is situationally very useful.As has been said, if used at the end of a fight, it would still consideribly increase your DPS for that fight. Assuming the mob is debuffed this CA could easily hit for 6k damage, up to maybe 8 or 9k with a good crit. (Ice Nova often crits for more than twice its listed amount after debuffs, as does Fusion). If this is use on a mob in the last 3% or so, what are you missing out on? with a recast of 5 minutes its not like you would be using it more than once on a fight anyway, so the idea is to use it when the stifle has the least amount of an impact (ie, being stifled when you are not fighting anything does not affect your DPS at all).If used in the last < 3% (usually about 5 seconds of a fight, if that), what are you missing out on? 2 seconds of auto attack swings? Do you have any other ability that would do more damage in this situation? (a situation that every raid encounter has, named, trash, they all have it).So, at the end of every second or third fight (I am assuming a guild that has monks on their raids is not moving faster than that), you have an ability to do 3k - 8k damage (6k - 16k DPS), and your complaining about it.As a secondary point, if the fight is about to end, the amount of power it uses is negligable. Assuming you have 500 power left (i can think of very few fights in game where there is even the remotest possibilaty you may not), and this ability is up, you should be using it in the last 3% or so of every fight to maximise your ZW DPS. If regening power becomes an issue between fights, start doing some of the tricks wizards have been doing since T5.Again, even with a self stifle, I would kill for an ability like this as a wizard.Edit: just read Aeraliks comments on EQ2flames, and I still fail to see why you think its such a bad CA.I could see an argument for the immunity to be taken off, much as it was asked for the manaburn immunity to be taken away in EoF beta (back when a serious raiding wizard would have considered taking it). Personally, I think giving seperate immunities for monks and brusiers would be better than removing the immunity all together. And concidering a 5 minute recast, brawlers could just as easily take turns at DF'ing mobs (much as wizards took turns manaburning back before we realised it totally sucked for raiding, or as necros do now with lifeburn).</blockquote>Horrible post and poor understanding of this game for melee classes. Stop thinking melee CAs as caster spells.First, you can't understand because monk has faster reuse CA with smaller damages than wizard. We have to time our CA between auto attack. In other word, I can always hit CA every 2 sec. Stifle 10 sec means I am going to miss 5 CAs damages. The total damage is more than 2k-3.8k.Second, DF has 30 sec immunity. It's STUPID to use it when mob is under 3% if there are two brawler in raid, for example, one monk and one bruiser. BUT with DF immunity, only 1 brawler can cast DF before Mob is under 3%.Third, assuming people have 500 power left in the end of fight is also stupid. Casters have 7-9k power or even 10k+ power with buffs. For most brawler, we have 3k-4k power in raid. For high end brawlers, we may have 5k+. 500 power is not a big deal for caster with 8-9k power, but it is a serious issue for brawler with 3-4k power total in raid.Fourth, how could a 11-16 dps as "considerablely" raise your raid ZW dps? You are kidding me. Or brawler in raid did only 200-300 ZW dps so that 11-16 dps are considerablely raise brawler dps?Last, DF with 10 sec stifle is totally a junk, at least for monk. Bruiser may enjoy it a bit than monk since their CS reuse time is about double of monk. For monk, there is no way for me to find a 10 sec window that I don't need to hit my CAs. No way.

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 05:26 PM

Sapph continue to prefer to miss Auto Attacks then, until longer than 3s DWs are available that is what you are doing as a monk. Also, if you go back and look at what I had said, you will notice that once every 5min you add a massive attack that stifles you, right as you start a 17s period of time where you should not be, or severely limiting the casting of CAs.Panther, you're losing the idea behind basing the DPS off casting, recast, and recovery times. For things that you will use only once per fight, the DPS they give you is based only upon their casting and recovery times and the duration of the fight, while things you use many times per fight are based upon their recast timer also.That gives you the best picture of how much damage a particular CA or Spell does in a set amount of time. IE: DPS.

Couching

08-31-2007, 05:31 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>This ability went from worthless, to overpowered, nerfed down to useful but not spectacular.Useful but not spectacular. That seems to be the name of the game for bloodline abilities.The changes to this ability are not the reason monks don't or won't be top raid invite candidates.Not to mention the 10s Stifle is not a big deal. At all.Use Devastation Fist right as your Dirge fires off CoB and you swap to a fast weapon for your primary or your two hand(which in all reality you should be using instead of DWs as a monk).Bam.Maximum effectiveness.</blockquote><chokes and walks away laughing></blockquote>Looks like another person who thinks CA spam = DPS./Looks at the sand bag guild player/ignores any input they could possibly have.</blockquote>PaganSaint,Bruiser is different from monk. Most bruiser CAs have double reuse time than monk CAs.Since you know that spamming CA = less dps, I can assure you that it's impossible for monk, who knows how to time CAs between auto attack, to find a 10 sec window that all CAs are not up.I can always hit a CA every 2 sec or even shorter while timing CAs between auto attack.In other word, stilfe 10 sec for me = losing 5 CAS. It's ridiculous since 5 CAs damage is larger than 2k-3.8k DF damage.Bruiser will get a little benefit on DF since it's possible for them to get a 10 sec window that all CAs are not up but it's impossible for monks.

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 05:36 PM

My point is, with the amount of haste a Monk has, then definitely maxing that haste when CoB is up, there are no DWs available at the moment, and some fairly hard to acquire ones after the changes that a Monk will be able to use the will enable them to not lose DPS while spamming CAs during CoB. Even using a two hand, you will not be losing any damage just auto attacking when CoB is up opposed to spamming CAs if you include the Dev Fist damage into the damage you do over that amount of time CoB is up.When CoB is not up, I do not see anyone using Devastation Fist, except to spike their damage right as a mob is dying or before an out call to joust an AE.

Sapphirius

08-31-2007, 05:37 PM

Not all brawlers were created equal. Bruisers work differently from monks, and apparently, you need some lessons in weapons and damage ratings.

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 05:41 PM

Hmm maybe you don't understand your own class.Go back and re-read what I had posted. Then try to formulate an argument that is an actual response to what I post instead of going for troll points.

Noaani

08-31-2007, 05:43 PM

<cite>PantherXX wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Calculating DPS based solely on casting time is ridiculous. The extreme example is to say that I do Inifnite dps every time I autoattack because autoattack has zero casting time. DPS (damage PER second) is time averaged, so the only way to look at it is over time. Soooo ... Ice Nova adds on average (7674/(4+45))=156 DPS over a fight (assuming the fight lasts at least as long as your recast). The reason you don't constantly cast Sunstrike (with an added DPS of 250) is that you could never cast anything else if you used it every time, and hence your total DPS would be 250. And if you look at how anyone else calculates DPS, this is the correct way. You are making the right choice for entirely the wrong reason.!</blockquote>Once again, this is likely the reason some monks do such dismal DPS on raids, yet others can do so well. You are working out the potential of a spells DPS over an extended period, or the potential of a spells ZW damage if used every time it is up (and only its DPS, not extDPS, which is what you should be looking at). As has been the staple of every mage since T5, damage/(casting+recovery) is the way to work out the value of a given spell or combat art while in combat. The only time this would vary is if the fight had a duration of infinity.Open up excel, do yourself up a spreadsheet with cast time, average damage, and then average DPS, and then rework the usefulness of your combat arts. Your DPS will increase. The only thing any melee class needs to take in to account that a wizard doesn't is the amount of damage you will miss from auto attacks, which is easy enough to figure out (i reciently did just that for a brigand in my guild, and increased his DPS considerably from doing so).<blockquote>In addition, this shows you have no concept of how quick cast classes (in particular brawlers) work. Casting Dev Fist with a 10s stun is a bad idea for exactly the same reason casting Sunstrike is. It prevents us from using other abilities -- hence our DPS goes down. </blockquote>Casting Devestatoin fist in the middle of a fight IS a bad idea, correct. Casting it in the last 3 seconds of a fight, when 8.5 seconds of the stun will be out of combat, is in no way, shape or form a bad idea. You do not loose DPS if you are stifled during a period you can not do any DPS. As a wizard I stifle myself between almost every fight, in order to replenish power faster. I do not loose any DPS for doing so.<blockquote>Plus, all the arguements that say to use this with Crane Flock and CoB or whatever buff combination you like ... I can still time CA's during that period, so the stifle is still decreasing my DPS!</blockquote>Agreed.

Toy Dragon

08-31-2007, 05:45 PM

I have to say that IMHO the only really bad thing about the changes is that stupid 10 second stifle after a cast. I think a lot would be solved by just removing the stifle effect when fighting epics but maintain it when fighting solo and heroics. Just my two cents.

Sapphirius

08-31-2007, 05:47 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmm maybe you don't understand your own class.Go back and re-read what I had posted. Then try to formulate an argument that is an actual response to what I post instead of going for troll points.</blockquote>So lovely that you changed your post after I read it the first time. The only person I see trolling is you. BTW, weren't you ignoring any input I made? That is what you said earlier, is it not?Tell you what. You find me an easily obtainable two-handed weapon that is better than my fabled dual wields, and I'll concede to your point, but until then, I'll stick with my dual wields. Thank you very much for your input. I found it rather valuable. If anything, it provided me with some amusement for the day.

Sapphirius

08-31-2007, 05:48 PM

<cite>Qylith@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have to say that IMHO the only really bad thing about the changes is that stupid 10 second stifle after a cast. I think a lot would be solved by just removing the stifle effect when fighting epics but maintain it when fighting solo and heroics. Just my two cents.</blockquote>Sadly, I don't see SOE doing this.

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 05:54 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmm maybe you don't understand your own class.Go back and re-read what I had posted. Then try to formulate an argument that is an actual response to what I post instead of going for troll points.</blockquote>So lovely that you changed your post after I read it the first time. The only person I see trolling is you. BTW, weren't you ignoring any input I made? That is what you said earlier, is it not?Tell you what. You find me an easily obtainable two-handed weapon that is better than my fabled dual wields, and I'll concede to your point, but until then, I'll stick with my dual wields. Thank you very much for your input. I found it rather valuable. If anything, it provided me with some amusement for the day.</blockquote>Vraksakin Claw Club. Next? Need another? Less powerful but better than anything but Star Sharpened and SoD/Stone of Tranq: Mallet of the Overlord.Thanks for playing.

Sapphirius

08-31-2007, 06:05 PM

I have SOD. I said easily obtainable and better. Thank you. You still lose.(Since apparently the print is too fine to read.)

Toy Dragon

08-31-2007, 06:05 PM

Getting a little hostile isn't it? Maybe a Dev will come in and clear up the dps misconceptions... better yet maybe they'll just lock the thread.

Sapphirius

08-31-2007, 06:08 PM

<cite>Qylith@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Getting a little hostile isn't it? Maybe a Dev will come in and clear up the dps misconceptions... better yet maybe they'll just lock the thread.</blockquote>Not to worry, hun. If we need it locked, I'm sure a moderator will come along and do just that.In a seperate thread, Panther made some awesome suggestions for DF changes that I rather liked.<cite>PantherXX wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><cite></cite><cite></cite>Some "constructive" suggestions:<ul><li>25% on heroics is too much. 10% would be more reasonable. We are not the "uber" solo class people think we are (most nukers/kiters can solo better), but this would be over the top.</li><li>Keep the damage at 1% on epics but make the immunity equal to the recast. No stacking multiple brawlers on a single mob that way. The damage here would amount to no more than inquisitors get with Verdict.</li><li>I would not be opposed to other limits that make the skill useable only once per fight (permenant immunity for example or under 10% only).</li><li>If you absolutely must make it direct damage on Epics, then either remove the stifle or up the damage. As is, it takes too much power and would likely reduce DPS with the stifle.</li></ul>Some things to keep in mind for "haters" if kept at 1%:<ul><li>This skill will generate agro and cannot be used with impunity</li><li>It is % based, so to my knowledge it CANNOT crit.</li><li>Even hitting for 30k with a 3min recast, that ups our DPS by 166. Even with Jester's up all the time, it would add 277 dps.</li></ul></blockquote>

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 06:13 PM

Unless that SoD is paired with the Star Sharpened Cestus from C-Mayong its not better. Your reading comprehension is holding steady at less than an autistic third grader level.--------------------------------Back on topic.How are people saying this ability, being changed from completely worthless to situationally usable, is a make or break for raiding?When has any BLC spell been make or break for raiding or hell even groups?People are mad that their new high hit toy has been taken away before it was even usable. This is the purposes of testing. If they had implemented 1% max health vs Epics on live then taken it away there could be a case made for severe nerfing, as it is, it was seen for what it was, overpowered, and changed to only moderately useful before it could influence the game.I'll take any changes they want that make abilities go from completely worthless to moderately useful.EDIT:One problem with that change he proposed is that unlike Verdict, Devestation Fist does damage. The Inquisitor does not gain any damage from using Verdict while Devestation Fist adds a literal crap ton of damage done.

acctlc

08-31-2007, 06:26 PM

What I find terribly funny in such a sad way is a Wizard in here preaching to brawlers about this CA. Wizzies top the raid parse..brawlers usually are found somewhere near the bottom. Your point that this CA is worth using isvalid. Sure..use it at the end of an encounter. It is better than it used to be. Now.. the tricky part...getting on the raid with the brawler to have a chance to use it!The folks here are upset because for a brief second, the changes to this spell would have gotten our butts on a raid for something other than cannon fodder for when traps need springing or mobs need spawning. The wizzy above said it himself in a previous post... If your a raid force with brawlers on it you probably aren't moving any faster than 2-3 fights every 5 mins. We can't dps anywhere near scouts or mages, we have no utility, and therefore no place on any raid, except that pickup that is so desperate for bodies they will take just about anyone.Now the hardcore raiding brawler will come out to tell me how wrong I am and how high he can parse...before you do...I'm not talking to you <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> This is for the rest of the brawlers out there that don't have access to avatar/contested loot.

EQ2Luv

08-31-2007, 06:30 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote>Umm, no. What really determines how much DPS given CA or spell does, you need to look at casting time, recovery time, reuse time AND the time spent fighting within the reuse time. So a CA that does 3,5k damage with 300s reuse timer will do a bit under 12 DPS in a 5 min fight. On the other hand, if you spend 60s fighting, the it does a bit under 60 DPS.As a monk, I really could care less about an attack that had 0,5s casting time and even if it did 5k damage when it stifles you for 10s and has 5 min reuse time.</blockquote>If that were the cast, Ice Nova would have a total DPS of less than Sunstrike, and no wizard in their right mind would ever cast it. I am glad the wizard community is smart enough to realise how to figure out how much DPS a spell or CA is, maybe the monk community will catch up soon.The reason recast time is not a factor is simply because while the recast is ticking away, you are able to do other things. You have more than one CA to use. When you are about to use a CA, you are restricting yourself to that one CA for the total cast time of it (and you are restricting yourself to not using other CAs for the recovery time as well, but you are still able to auto attack in that time). Thus, the time it takes to put out the damage of a given CA is purely the time it takes to cast that CA.</blockquote>Dmg/(cast+recovery) is a heuristic for determing spell priorty. It is not an exact representation of the DPS of the spell and it alone will not give you the optimal ordering for spells. I will use a fictional class as a counterexample to your claim. Suppose my magician class has 3 spells. Two of them, spells A and B, have a cast time of 2.5 seconds, a recast of 3 minutes, and do 1000 damage ("DPS"=333). The third, spell C has a cast of .5 seconds, a recast of 3 seconds, and does 100 damage ("DPS"=100). Suppose the fight lasts for 10 seconds. (You could use any duration under 3 minutes, you'd just have to add up more numbers, or worse use multiplication *gasp*). Your claim says that I should cast the two "333 dps" spells first and then cast the 100 damage spell. How much damage will this do if the fight lasts 10 seconds? 3 seconds to cast 1000 dmg A, 3 seconds to cast 1000 dmg B, 1 second to cast 100 dmg, and that's it. This is 2100 damage.I would suggest a different ordering. Cast spell C,A,C,B,C. Total time taken 1+3+1+3+1=9 seconds. Total damage dealt: 2300.Thus it is not always best to cast the highest "DPS" spells first. It depends on the length of the fight. In the above scenario it would only be better to cast the high dps spells first if the fight had a duration of 3 minutes and 9 seconds to 3 minutes and 15 seconds. That doesn't happen too often does it.... Please dont insult monks, or insinuate that we arent as smart as wizards (you did more than once in your post --" I'll assume raids that have monks don't move faster than this"? If we're that bad, what was wrong with boosting us?). I won't throw insults at you, I'll just say that you're wrong and prove it. P.S. I have a feeling someone is going to say 'well thats stupid , no class has only 3 spells. So suppose they also have a bunch of other spells but they all do 1 damage with a cast time of .5 seconds. IOW suppose A B and C are simply the most significant spells of the class and you're looking at how best to order those.

EQ2Luv

08-31-2007, 06:34 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>My point is, with the amount of haste a Monk has, then definitely maxing that haste when CoB is up, there are no DWs available at the moment, and some fairly hard to acquire ones after the changes that a Monk will be able to use the will enable them to not lose DPS while spamming CAs during CoB. Even using a two hand, you will not be losing any damage just auto attacking when CoB is up opposed to spamming CAs if you include the Dev Fist damage into the damage you do over that amount of time CoB is up.When CoB is not up, I do not see anyone using Devastation Fist, except to spike their damage right as a mob is dying or before an out call to joust an AE.</blockquote>How do you lose autoattacks if you time your CA in between your autoattacks with a 2.5 delay weapon? If your haste were maxed you'd have a weapon delay of just over 1 second. Yea it would be hard, but it's not impossible. Especially with baton flurry.

wushupork

08-31-2007, 06:35 PM

I don't think Crane Flock or Cacophony of Blades should even be part of the equation for considering whether the Devastation Fist upgrade is viable. Not everyone is running around with a Dirge in their group, and not every is specced to final ability in WIS line. That said however I think 10s stifle is a deal breaker for epic use at the current level of damage for reasons that have been made clear in previous posts. The stifle is fine for solo/heroic mobs.

megaira13

08-31-2007, 06:36 PM

I always considered DF as something of a fun spell... good stress relief to walk up to a solo mob and punch it in the head. Now it's useful on heroics and an extra 3k hit you can smack at the end of a fight. Gee whiz, that sucks! When will the nerfing stop?

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 06:36 PM

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>How do you lose autoattacks if you time your CA in between your autoattacks with a 2.5 delay weapon? If your haste were maxed you'd have a weapon delay of just over 1 second. Yea it would be hard, but it's not impossible. Especially with baton flurry. </blockquote>2.5s Delay weapon has a delay of .9s with maxed haste.

Raidi Sovin'faile

08-31-2007, 06:38 PM

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Dmg/(cast+recovery) is a heuristic for determing spell priorty. It is not an exact representation of the DPS of the spell and it alone will not give you the optimal ordering for spells. </blockquote>QFENoaani, and others... stop using the term "DPS" for this damage modal. The term DPS stands for (D)amage (P)er (S)econd. You are taking out the seconds involved after the spell is cast, and therefore the numbers you are getting are quite simply NOT your "DPS".Like EQ2Luv said, it's at best useable to determine which spell order to use... but even then, there are flaws (as was pointed out).The main issue people are having with your argument Noaani is that you are using a term that is inapplicable to your numbers. Stop calling it "DPS" because that's not what it is.I suggest using something like "Damage Modal", as that's effectively what you are getting with your equation.

EQ2Luv

08-31-2007, 06:39 PM

Raidi Sovin'faile

08-31-2007, 06:41 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>How do you lose autoattacks if you time your CA in between your autoattacks with a 2.5 delay weapon? If your haste were maxed you'd have a weapon delay of just over 1 second. Yea it would be hard, but it's not impossible. Especially with baton flurry. </blockquote>2.5s Delay weapon has a delay of .9s with maxed haste.</blockquote>And Agi line gives you recovery reduction, thus making your CA + recovery less than that.Not to mention that Monks have a cast speed increase too, don't they? What's your CA cast time after that increase? Might not even have to spec down Agi line to get less than 0.9s from CA cast + recovery.

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 06:41 PM

100% haste is 1.25s Delay for a 2.5s base delay weapon.25% of that 1.25% is .31s.125% hasted is .93s or .9s

Raidi Sovin'faile

08-31-2007, 06:44 PM

Personally, I'm all for increasing the damage from Dev Fist. Honestly. My fix was to make it based on our Health.. I was thinking in the 2x our health range, but if that's too high then even 1x our health would be more than this.Honestly, you could put that cap for the whole combat art. So leave the percentages in, 100% vs solo mob, 25% vs heroic, 4% vs Epic x2, and 1% vs Epic x4... but then have a cap in damage based on our health.So we do UP TO those percentages, as long as we don't go over our max health in damage (or 2x our max health if you want to be nice).

EQ2Luv

08-31-2007, 06:44 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>100% haste is 1.25s Delay for a 2.5s base delay weapon.25% of that 1.25% is .31s.125% hasted is .93s or .9s</blockquote>That math doesnt quite work out. By such reasoning 200% haste would have a delay of 0.

BChizzle

08-31-2007, 06:46 PM

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 06:48 PM

100% haste is attacking at twice the rate.1.25s is twice the rate of 2.5s.93.... is 125% the rate of attack of 2.5s200% haste would be attacking at three times the rate.

BChizzle

08-31-2007, 06:50 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>100% haste is 1.25s Delay for a 2.5s base delay weapon.25% of that 1.25% is .31s.125% hasted is .93s or .9s</blockquote>LOL, you are kidding right? You questioned someones reading level before, I suggest you worry more about your own math level.

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 06:53 PM

Base 2.5s, 100% haste is 1.25s, 25% of 1.25s is .3125, reducing 1.25s by an additional .3125(an additional 25%) is .9375s.Now please, if you can do better than using basic math, go right ahead and disprove that.

Couching

08-31-2007, 06:54 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>How do you lose autoattacks if you time your CA in between your autoattacks with a 2.5 delay weapon? If your haste were maxed you'd have a weapon delay of just over 1 second. Yea it would be hard, but it's not impossible. Especially with baton flurry. </blockquote>2.5s Delay weapon has a delay of .9s with maxed haste.</blockquote>Wrong, definitely wrong. It's 1.1 delay with max haste on live and it's 1.5 delay on test server with the crazy 1.33 penalty on DW.

Sapphirius

08-31-2007, 06:55 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>LOL, you are kidding right? You questioned someones reading level before, I suggest you worry more about your own math level.</blockquote>Not to worry, hun. My reading level is just fine, and my weapons are still better than his club he listed. <smiles> If I felt otherwise, I'd be hunting in Temple of Scale right now for it.

BChizzle

08-31-2007, 06:56 PM

EQ2Luv

08-31-2007, 06:57 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Base 2.5s, 100% haste is 1.25s, 25% of 1.25s is .3125, reducing 1.25s by an additional .3125(an additional 25%) is .9375s.Now please, if you can do better than using basic math, go right ahead and disprove that.</blockquote>Suppose we could have 200% haste. 100% haste is 1.25s. 100% of 1.25s is 1.25s. Reducing 1.25s by an additional 1.25s is 0s. Your reasoning was used in the above paragraph. If you have a delay of 0, youre attacking much more than three times the normal rate. By your own acknowledgement, the above reasoning cannot be correct.

Toy Dragon

08-31-2007, 06:58 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Base 2.5s, 100% haste is 1.25s, 25% of 1.25s is .3125, reducing 1.25s by an additional .3125(an additional 25%) is .9375s.Now please, if you can do better than using basic math, go right ahead and disprove that.</blockquote>When you increase something by a % like this it becomes infinite. Under your calculations you just broke the universe.</blockquote>Yeah, seriously people, stop breaking the universe, some of us live there you know.

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 07:00 PM

Still haven't posted what you use, so you can say "my stuff is better lawlz" all you want and no one will know the difference.You said easily obtainable so I tossed two easily attainable two hands out, if you have a Star Sharpened or Stone of Tranquility, We can use the Star Forged Bo as the Greater and the Greatmaul of Fury as the lesser for two examples.

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 07:02 PM

EQ2Luv the percentages are not direct percentage reductions.The percentages are rate of attack increases.100% haste is twice as many attacks.200% haste would be three times as many attacks.300% haste would be four times as many attacks.Etc Etc Ad Nausem.

BChizzle

08-31-2007, 07:08 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Still haven't posted what you use, so you can say "my stuff is better lawlz" all you want and no one will know the difference.You said easily obtainable so I tossed two easily attainable two hands out, if you have a Star Sharpened or Stone of Tranquility, We can use the Star Forged Bo as the Greater and the Greatmaul of Fury as the lesser for two examples.</blockquote>The great maul is garbage. Star forged is good for tanking and craneflock but there are maybe 4-5 of them. I would say razor gaunts/SOD would beat vclub but they are on a comparable level, if she can kill Mayong she can also kill the tactician so its not too hard to figure out her other weapon.I'd also add, that when I switch weapons in fight there is a delay for me not only in actually pressing a button to switch but also while the weapon switches things seem to slow down for a split second. Suggesting that this is an effective way to do things when you then have to switch back again after the stifle is gone is maybe good in theory but not so great in practice. Do testcopy and go try it.

BChizzle

08-31-2007, 07:11 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>EQ2Luv the percentages are not direct percentage reductions.The percentages are rate of attack increases.100% haste is twice as many attacks.200% haste would be three times as many attacks.300% haste would be four times as many attacks.Etc Etc Ad Nausem.</blockquote>Wrong again

tt66

08-31-2007, 07:17 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Back on topic.How are people saying this ability, being changed from completely worthless to situationally usable, is a make or break for raiding?When has any BLC spell been make or break for raiding or hell even groups?People are mad that their new high hit toy has been taken away before it was even usable. This is the purposes of testing. If they had implemented 1% max health vs Epics on live then taken it away there could be a case made for severe nerfing, as it is, it was seen for what it was, overpowered, and changed to only moderately useful before it could influence the game.</blockquote>Oh great. Yet another potentially useful thread that's going to be locked because PaganSaint managed to get into a flamewar. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />But I do find the above interesting. I mean, you're perfectly correct. No BLC has ever been anything more than an interesting little addition. And it was perhaps wrong of us to expect it to suddenly be the answer to our raiding prayers. It would have been drastically overpowered compared to the BLC toys of other classes, but as Aeralik himself said "you have to at least look at the broad spectrum of abilities all classes have". And goodness knows our abilities as a whole need a raid-upgrade.I still really really want to know where the "testing" part of it came in, tho. As far as I can see, it was implemented, people said "oh my! 1% of an epic's health is a lot!", and then they took it out again. Couldn't they have worked out that 1% of an epic's health was a lot before implementing thing thing? I'll be honest, if they'd never mentioned the 1% and gone for a fixed amount of damage from the beginning... well I'd still hardly ever use it on a raid but at least I wouldn't feel like the devs are taunting me!

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 07:17 PM

Have done that.Use it on my dirge to swap in a Windrazor for CoB, used to do it with my guardian before I acquired a GBH on him, swap a Scepter of Destruction in with the Bruiser during CoB uptime. Swap from the Greatmaul to a 2.5s delay 2h while on a monk.Haven't noticed any lag or delay caused by weapon swap, I time it between Auto Attacks like a CA.As for the Star Forged and Greatmaul, they are hands down, far and away the best currently available weapons for brawlers.If the GBH is DWable with the Kama those two may pull ahead of both of them, but there is not another combination that I have tested that can outperform the Star Forged. And have seen only 3 other combinations, all using the GBH or the Kama that beat out the Greatmaul on test.

Raidi Sovin'faile

08-31-2007, 07:19 PM

100% haste is equal to twice as fast. You are hitting +100% as often... twice as often.Hitting twice as often is equal to half the delay. So 2.5 at 100% haste (which is something like 115 haste or somesuch), you'd have a delay of 1.25.In equation form, finding haste %'s when you know your original delay and the new delay after haste (the old way to find Haste %'s before they listed them, back in EQ1), it looked like this:(Original Delay / New Delay) - 1 = Haste %There is a -1 due to Normal Delay divided by New Delay gives us the original hit plus how much closer we are to a second hit. Taking out the original hit gives us the % value that EQ uses.So to determine New Delay, we simply flip the equation around:New Delay = Original Delay / (1 + Haste %)So in the case of 100%, we are looking at 2.5 / (1 + 1.0), or rather 2.5 divided by 2.... 1.25In the case of 125%, we are looking at 2.5 / (1 + 1.25), or 2.5 divided by 2.25.... 1.11.To get 0.9s, we'd be looking at (2.5 / 0.9) - 1, or 177% Haste.If you want to see this in literal terms...Regular speed: 1 hit in 2.5s, requires one hit every 2.5 seconds.100% Haste: 2 hits in 2.5s, requires one hit every 1.25 seconds.125% Haste: 2.25 hits in 2.5s, requires one hit every 1.11 seconds.177% Haste: 2.77 hits in 2.5s, requires one hit every 0.9 seconds.If instead you had a 1.6s delay weapon, you are looking at only needing 77% Haste to hit th 0.9s mark.However, with the new update... 1.6s weapons being dual wielded get multiplied by 1.33 (33% longer delay), and become something like 2.1 Delay.. which was a fairly good delay for weapons to synch up with combat arts.To get 0.9s from a 2.1 Delay, you'd need 131% haste.. which is currently impossible. So with the new Dual Wield mechanics, 1.6s delay becomes fairly viable.Hence why people are saying 1.6 is the new 2.0.

BChizzle

08-31-2007, 07:22 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Have done that.Use it on my dirge to swap in a Windrazor for CoB, used to do it with my guardian before I acquired a GBH on him, swap a Scepter of Destruction in with the Bruiser during CoB uptime. Swap from the Greatmaul to a 2.5s delay 2h while on a monk.Haven't noticed any lag or delay caused by weapon swap, I time it between Auto Attacks like a CA.As for the Star Forged and Greatmaul, they are hands down, far and away the best currently available weapons for brawlers.If the GBH is DWable with the Kama those two may pull ahead of both of them, but there is not another combination that I have tested that can outperform the Star Forged. And have seen only 3 other combinations, all using the GBH or the Kama that beat out the Greatmaul on test.</blockquote>Having tested all 3 I would have to say you are incorrect. Now for test I understand they did raise the dmg of 2 handers recently. Are you talking about test or live?

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 07:25 PM

tt66 the testing portion came in when it was applied to specific nameds that have in excess of 5m HP.1% does not sound like a large number untill you apply it to other large numbers.50k Damage every five minutes is rather significant. Then even more so if Jester's Cap is applied before every use.You are looking at the potential to do well in excess of 50k damage 3 or 4 times a fight against some nameds.

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 07:28 PM

That was before the changes to two hand damage, the GBH and Kama together are game changing for brawlers damage wise, haven't been able to log back in to retest since they have changed two hander damages and to see if the GBH/Kama are still valid together.

Raidi Sovin'faile

08-31-2007, 07:28 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>EQ2Luv the percentages are not direct percentage reductions.The percentages are rate of attack increases.100% haste is twice as many attacks.200% haste would be three times as many attacks.300% haste would be four times as many attacks.Etc Etc Ad Nausem.</blockquote>Wrong again</blockquote>Actually, that's right.. but his equation of "25% of 1.25 is X" is not following the same rule that he quotes here. That is why he's getting a wrong result.If 200% = 3 attacks... basically 1 + 2x1 = 3... then how does that fit with how you get the 0.9s from an added 25%?Like EQ2Luv said... if you do 200%, which is three attacks in the same timeframe, then going by your example of 100% = 1.25, therefore 100% of 1.25 = 1.25, so 1.25 - 1.25 = 0. So attacking three times in the same space of time equates to having a delay of 0 no matter what weapon you have.You flaw is the second part of the equation. You don't do 25% of 1.25. That's not how it works because that's no longer taking into account the original hit and just expanding the original "value" by 25% higher... which is not a representation of anything in this game.To get a proper value, you need to do the same equation from scratch.. not cut it up partway through. Original Delay divided by 1+Haste%. So 2.5 divided by 1+100% = 1.25... but 2.5 divided by 1+125% = 1.11

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 07:31 PM

Exactly Kaisoku, I was going 25% of the original 100% rate increase, not increasing the actual rate itself by 25%.It started looking funny to me as I applied it to other weapons that I know the exact ingame delays for at differing levels of haste but I couldn't pin it down.

Couching

08-31-2007, 07:33 PM

It doesn't make any sense to count on jester cap since someone will always get it, maybe nec, wiz, ranger or assassin.If brawler gets it, someone will "lose" it. In fact, even DF is 1% on epic, in most cases, you did less raid wide dps if you give jester cap to brawler rather than nec, wiz, ranger and assassin.

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 07:40 PM

We have two troubs atleast, sometimes three on our raids, the top DPS classes and main healers are almost always either under immunity or in the case of the healers aren't receiving JC due to not needing it at all.This is an ideal type situation, but you need to look at the ideal situations and skill combinations to see how large of an impact something potentially can have on gameplay.Why do you think they changed Lend Shielding? It was not that useful as a stand alone ability, but have the Bards and the tank's Cleric spec'd properly and you can chain out ridiculous and game altering avoidance.

BChizzle

08-31-2007, 07:41 PM

<cite>Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>EQ2Luv the percentages are not direct percentage reductions.The percentages are rate of attack increases.100% haste is twice as many attacks.200% haste would be three times as many attacks.300% haste would be four times as many attacks.Etc Etc Ad Nausem.</blockquote>Wrong again</blockquote>Actually, that's right.. but his equation of "25% of 1.25 is X" is not following the same rule that he quotes here. That is why he's getting a wrong result.If 200% = 3 attacks... basically 1 + 2x1 = 3... then how does that fit with how you get the 0.9s from an added 25%?Like EQ2Luv said... if you do 200%, which is three attacks in the same timeframe, then going by your example of 100% = 1.25, therefore 100% of 1.25 = 1.25, so 1.25 - 1.25 = 0. So attacking three times in the same space of time equates to having a delay of 0 no matter what weapon you have.You flaw is the second part of the equation. You don't do 25% of 1.25. That's not how it works because that's no longer taking into account the original hit and just expanding the original "value" by 25% higher... which is not a representation of anything in this game.To get a proper value, you need to do the same equation from scratch.. not cut it up partway through. Original Delay divided by 1+Haste%. So 2.5 divided by 1+100% = 1.25... but 2.5 divided by 1+125% = 1.11</blockquote>No he's wrong as are you because weapon delays cap, so at .6(?) or whatever weapon increases stop flat and do not decrease no matter how much you increase your attack speed.

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 07:43 PM

Weapon delay can go below .6 ever since they increased the amount of haste possible from 100% to 125%.Actually, it could before that, RHotHP could achieve .5s delay.

EQ2Luv

08-31-2007, 07:48 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>EQ2Luv the percentages are not direct percentage reductions.The percentages are rate of attack increases.100% haste is twice as many attacks.200% haste would be three times as many attacks.300% haste would be four times as many attacks.Etc Etc Ad Nausem.</blockquote>Wrong again</blockquote>Actually, that's right.. but his equation of "25% of 1.25 is X" is not following the same rule that he quotes here. That is why he's getting a wrong result.If 200% = 3 attacks... basically 1 + 2x1 = 3... then how does that fit with how you get the 0.9s from an added 25%?Like EQ2Luv said... if you do 200%, which is three attacks in the same timeframe, then going by your example of 100% = 1.25, therefore 100% of 1.25 = 1.25, so 1.25 - 1.25 = 0. So attacking three times in the same space of time equates to having a delay of 0 no matter what weapon you have.You flaw is the second part of the equation. You don't do 25% of 1.25. That's not how it works because that's no longer taking into account the original hit and just expanding the original "value" by 25% higher... which is not a representation of anything in this game.To get a proper value, you need to do the same equation from scratch.. not cut it up partway through. Original Delay divided by 1+Haste%. So 2.5 divided by 1+100% = 1.25... but 2.5 divided by 1+125% = 1.11</blockquote>No he's wrong as are you because weapon delays cap, so at .6(?) or whatever weapon increases stop flat and do not decrease no matter how much you increase your attack speed.</blockquote>I had read this but was never sure if it was a fact. To me it makes no sense to cap delay since faster weapons are already a penalty in general. There is no extra power from having a delay under .6 since proc rates are normalized. To say theyre wrong unequivocally like that however is misleading. They are correct if the base delay is high enough that this cap is not reached.

Couching

08-31-2007, 08:12 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>We have two troubs atleast, sometimes three on our raids, the top DPS classes and main healers are almost always either under immunity or in the case of the healers aren't receiving JC due to not needing it at all.This is an ideal type situation, but you need to look at the ideal situations and skill combinations to see how large of an impact something potentially can have on gameplay.Why do you think they changed Lend Shielding? It was not that useful as a stand alone ability, but have the Bards and the tank's Cleric spec'd properly and you can chain out ridiculous and game altering avoidance.</blockquote>No, to have 3 troub isn't idea case. Actually it is worst case and it shows how poor game is made that why you need or want 3 troub in a raid.Moreover, you told that you have 3 dirges last time. Now, you said you have 3 troub in raid. LOLLet me say it again, no matter 3 dirge or 3 troub in raid is not idea case. It's one of worst case in game. 99% guild didn't raid with 3 dirge or 3 troub in raids.

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 08:17 PM

Lost one dirge, most times its 2 dirges and two troubs, one troub that hasn't been playing much in the past six months has sorted his stuff out and plays a good bit more.Predominately its split 2 and 2, but sometimes its 3 Troub 1 Dirge or 3 and 2 to fill slots.We aren't here to discuss whether or not the game should be ideal with four bards for four groups, we are here talking about(originally atleast) the changes made in the test version of Devastation Fist.With the mechanics that are in place hitting, lets say C-Mayong, for 80k Damage every 2.5min is over powered. Especially in relation to all other BLC abilities.

Couching

08-31-2007, 08:36 PM

The realty is not since brawler is not going to get jester cap. Giving jester to any nec, wiz, ranger, assassin, conj or warlock will have better RAID WIDE dps.It's a simple math. Since jester affects spell or CAs only, the best choice to give it to casters and high CA rogues. Contested mayong has about 6 million+ hp. 1% is 60k+. The average of monk dps caused by CA is around 500-550 with all mastered CAs.60k/180 is around 333 dps. See, if you give jester to monk, you are fool since even with 60k damage from DF, the total dps boost for raid is still less than 2.5k-3.5k casters.Also, the average of assassin/swashy/ranger dps caused by CAs is about 1500 with all mastered CAs. Anyone with a brain will give jester to casters or rogue/ranger no matter brawler has DF or not.

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 08:51 PM

Heh, that may be a problem you're having with your DPS if you aren't getting JC or bringing enough bards to go around.Ranger/Conj/Assassin/Swashy don't get much, if any large benefit from JC, its nice, its useful for a couple things. Same for Monks, Bruisers benefit greatly from it, makes a large ZW DPS difference. But again not what this is about. Its about Dev Fist.With Dev Fist doing 60k damage, you are boosting the raid damage by an additional 60k damage every 2.5min giving the brawler JC.This isn't even mentioning the ability to drop a mob down past its HP% triggered AE/Effects while stun/stifling it whenever you choose to without any risk whatsoever involved.

Couching

08-31-2007, 08:55 PM

You have no idea what you are posting. Why should bruiser benefit from than ranger/conj/assassin/swashy from jester? Bruiser has higher average CA damge than monk but it's still lower than ranger/conj/assassin/swashy.If bruiser can benefit jester greatly, then ranger/conj/assassin/swashy will benefit jester godly.Again, you insist giving jester to brawler rather than casters or melee dpsers, the result is your brawler did more dps but the raid wide dps is lowered.

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 09:03 PM

Knockout Combination + halved recast on CAs. Figure it out.And actually Swashy CA damage is about equal to Bruiser CA damage, Bruisers actually have a harder hitting CA than Swashies have available.Then there is the fact that JC on a melee class is not raising or lowering Raid DPS by much at all except in a few specific instances for a couple skill combinations. Name a class that outputs more than 70k damage with every 2.5min with just CAs.Now name a class, if any, that does that using a BLC ability.Reason for edit: I sucked at typing!

Couching

08-31-2007, 09:28 PM

Have you really read your parsing from ACT? Otherwise, how could you say that swashy didn't do more CA damage than bruiser.70k damage in 2.5 minutes? Come on, it's less than 500 dps in average. My monk can hit 70k damage in 2.5 minutes from CA. It's nothing.Let me say it again, assassin/ranger/swashy can deal 1.5k CA dps with all mastered in raid. It's by far better than 600 dps. Not to say nec/wiz.If you give jester to a bruiser with less than 500 CA dps over true dpsers, it's [Removed for Content].

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 09:31 PM

No not within 2.5min, every 2.5min another 70k-ish damage during the timeframe JC is up from CAs.

Couching

08-31-2007, 09:44 PM

No, it's not 70k damage since even Cmayong is less than 7000k hp. It's 6000k+ hp.Moreover, most epic hp is from 500k(trash) to 2000k(named) in kos, all in all, you will use it on trash mostly since trash mobs are always more than named. You will increase your ZW dps about 50-80 dp in average.For EoF raid, most epic hp is from 1000k(trash) to 4000k(named), all in all, trash mobs are still more than named. You will increase your ZW dps about 100-150 in average.Only in avatar or Cmayong encounter, you can get 60k, big number, whenever DF is up. Though, 60k/180 is only 333 dps. The brawler dps gap between real dpsers is by far more than 333 dps.Also, even with extra 333 dps, it's unworthy to cast jester on brawler since monk or bruiser CA damage +333 is still lower than nec/wiz or other dpsers spell/CA damages.

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 09:52 PM

60k+whatever damage you are doing with your other CAs during that time period.Its not that hard to figure out.

PantherXX

08-31-2007, 10:01 PM

Alright ... I had a nice long post about calculating DPS, but we are getting off topic. Suffice it to say DMG/cast time is a good metric to select the most efficient spells/CAs -- I fully acknowledge that. However, it is not the DPS the ability provides. That is, indeed, DMG/(cast+recast). And Pagan, I fully acknowledge that number is valid for very long fights, but it gives a good idea of what the benefit to a ZW parse will be.Now, to the topic at hand. Dev Fist at 1%, recastable every 3 mins is overpowered. I made a number of suggestions earlier, and I stick by those. (And for the record, if it stayed like that, the brawler should get Jesters every time it is up). Dev Fist as a 3k DD spell with a 10s stifle is useless. Using the DMG/Cast time metric, you really need to consider the cast time as 10s, as you cannot cast anything else in the mean time. So it is a 300 damage per cast time (DPCT! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> ), with the chance to continue autoattack. Capped haste on 2.5s delay weapons is currently 1.1s. After GU38 (where this change goes in), it is even higher. You should be able to time CAs between autoattack, so you are defninitely losing DPS while stifled. Switching to a fast DW for CoB might offset this, but saying the skill is valuable only when there is a Dirge around says it has very limited usability.What I don't understand is why a healer can hit for 2% (under limited circumstances), but under no circumstances can the DPS tank have that ability (or even half that ability).If they must make it DD, then eliminate or reduce the stifle and/or greatly reduce the power. The cost on this skill is so high, that it is only useable before a joust. And seriously ... if you are fighting contested Mayong ... 1% from Dev. Fist is not going to break the encounter.

Couching

08-31-2007, 10:04 PM

The problem is that it won't be 60k mostly. Most instanced raids are full of trash mobs rather than named.Not to say, even you get 60k damage every 3 minutes + other CAs damage, it's still less than spell/CA damage caused by real dpsers.

Zabjade

08-31-2007, 10:41 PM

The only thing I can say (I hate number crunching, it's the artist side of me) is that Developers seem to Hate Brawlers in General and Monks in particular, and I have yet to see anything that disproves that notion. They hold out a carrot then swap to the nerfbat stick, even the hate venting takes a lot of AA's and is not enought to cover for the DPSers of raids (Monks being haste not DPS).Probably the only reason I don't play my alts regulary is that I'm stubborn.

Mimnousa

08-31-2007, 11:00 PM

Ok this nerf I do not agree with. Here is what I feel is a good compromiseRun a baseleine 3-5k base damage value and have a plus .25% total lifeSo against a 500 k mob you would get a damage of 4.25k-6.25kAgainst a 2000k mob you would do 8-10k damage Against a 6000k mob you would do 18-20k damageAlso though for something this powerful it should be a one time a encouter effect meaning once you use it the mob is immune to it for the rest of the fight. I would also as a monk accept a resuse cap on it up for 10 minutes. (( what is the resue of decap?)) I think for Heroics being able to hit them for that much damage should be on a bit biger timer. Golems in unrest are over 60k life and that is a 15k every 3 minutes.

Noaani

08-31-2007, 11:02 PM

<cite>PantherXX wrote:</cite><blockquote>Alright ... I had a nice long post about calculating DPS, but we are getting off topic. Suffice it to say DMG/cast time is a good metric to select the most efficient spells/CAs -- I fully acknowledge that. However, it is not the DPS the ability provides. That is, indeed, DMG/(cast+recast). And Pagan, I fully acknowledge that number is valid for very long fights, but it gives a good idea of what the benefit to a ZW parse will be.</blockquote>In increadibly simplistic terms, that is correct.To keep things simple, lets look at a specific scenario.You are in a raid, you have 2% of the mobs health left. With the average DPS of your guild, you assume that the mob has about 3 - 4 seconds left to live. In order to maximise your DPS for this fight, what is the best CA you have at your disposal now to do so. After this change gose live, what will then be the best CA you have to use in order to do the maximum amount of damage in this scenario (a scenario that by necessity happens with every raid encounter).Note that if this is the best CA to use in this situation, if DF becomes better than any other CA you have, why are you complaining about being given an ability that has a clear and defined use on every single epic mob in the game?

EQ2Luv

08-31-2007, 11:10 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PantherXX wrote:</cite><blockquote>Alright ... I had a nice long post about calculating DPS, but we are getting off topic. Suffice it to say DMG/cast time is a good metric to select the most efficient spells/CAs -- I fully acknowledge that. However, it is not the DPS the ability provides. That is, indeed, DMG/(cast+recast). And Pagan, I fully acknowledge that number is valid for very long fights, but it gives a good idea of what the benefit to a ZW parse will be.</blockquote>In increadibly simplistic terms, that is correct.To keep things simple, lets look at a specific scenario.You are in a raid, you have 2% of the mobs health left. With the average DPS of your guild, you assume that the mob has about 3 - 4 seconds left to live. In order to maximise your DPS for this fight, what is the best CA you have at your disposal now to do so. After this change gose live, what will then be the best CA you have to use in order to do the maximum amount of damage in this scenario (a scenario that by necessity happens with every raid encounter).Note that if this is the best CA to use in this situation, if DF becomes better than any other CA you have, why are you complaining about being given an ability that has a clear and defined use on every single epic mob in the game?</blockquote>Because its use is to increase your dps when the mob is already gonna die anyway. I'd like skills that are good to use in a challenging fight to contribute to my dps in that challenging fight, not to inflate my zonewide by overkilling trash mobs. It's like if they gave someone a nuke that did 100% of the mobs health but could only be used when the mob was at .05% hp. Well that would be great to boost my zonewide, but who really gives a hoot that I did 1 million damage to a mob that was about to die anyway? The difference between dev fist and this hypothetical spell is that dev fist won't inflate my zonewide by more than about 20dps. Another reason is that the amount it contributes to DPS is not very large. Another reason is they teased us with a cool 1% dmg ability and then nerfed it within 24 hours of putting it on test. They did internal testing of this update for weeks but couldn't figure out that it was overpowered until someone complained on eq2flames? Ridiculous.

PaganSaint

08-31-2007, 11:40 PM

More worthwhile and on point testing/observations are had on eq2flames than on these forums, hell the Dev's post there more than here due to that.Devastation fist, as it is now on test, is perfectly fine, and a welcome upgrade.People refuse to see this though, especially brawlers, due to having seen something that was overpowered given, for a short time, to a class set that in the vast majority of cases is underpowered.So it calls for the pages of crying nerf and complaining about all aspects of an ability that was significantly upgraded.

EQ2Luv

08-31-2007, 11:52 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>More worthwhile and on point testing/observations are had on eq2flames than on these forums, hell the Dev's post there more than here due to that.Devastation fist, as it is now on test, is perfectly fine, and a welcome upgrade.People refuse to see this though, especially brawlers, due to having seen something that was overpowered given, for a short time, to a class set that in the vast majority of cases is underpowered.So it calls for the pages of crying nerf and complaining about all aspects of an ability that was significantly upgraded.</blockquote>Some of us think it is now too ineffective. You say its perfectly fine, we say it should be higher damage to be useful. Why are you correct while we are wrong? Why is it only whining when we want something enhanced, whereas people calling for nerf on eq2flames are providers of "worthwhile and on point testing". We've given extensive analysis of the problems with the monk class, but its all ignored. People like Noaani come along and say oh monks just don't know how to play. But as we see, Noaani was wrong--it was proven in this thread (that we understand the combat mechanics better than (s)he). We know how to play. We know the mechanics of the game and that's why we're "whining"; because we know that we're behind other fighters in every aspect. We need something, and if it's not going to be higher uncontested avoidance for avoidance tanks, then we want to get something else. Otherwise we have to go on raids every day knowing that our guild would be better off if we were a zerker or a power regen class. (I was perhaps too broad here: there are indeed many whines on this site that are basically meritless in my opinion. However, there are an equal number of people who like to call whine on any feedback asking for enhancement. Especially many who do so for classes they don't play....)

Laywon11

09-01-2007, 12:37 AM

I just love how any class, other than the one specified, think that they know anything about this discussion...

Couching

09-01-2007, 12:47 AM

MadBarman

09-01-2007, 01:01 AM

Can anyone on test post how much power Devastation fist uses now? Currently it takes a lot of power, I think it scales based on your maximum power to something like 10%.On trash that would be doable but on the big named fight where you might want to use this as a killing shot it's not guaranteed you will have enough power left. Which kind of restricts what it will get used on.The main problem with having it do 1% damage seems to be the huge damage you would get on contested raids (mayong and avatars have been cited before as examples). In instances trash and some of the named encounters the 1% damage wouldn't be much more than what devastation fist now does (2-4k).So it sounds like this skill was changed from 1% to a fixed amount because of the possible damage on contesteds. How many contested mobs are fought by raids with a brawler in it every week? Do all the top raid guilds use brawlers then?Let's use a hypothetical fight that lasts 15 minutes using the 1% damage, 3 minute recast, a brawler could do a total of 5% damage (extra to other CA's and autoattack) from devastation fist. That is too much (I think). On the instance raids trash and some of the named encounters devastation fist would only be used once.Now change the immunity the target gains to the duration of the encounter (Like the pickpocket achievement ability rogues get) only one devastation fist usable per fight. In the hypothetical 15 minute fight it can only be used once (for 1%) and in the majority of the rest of raid encounters it still is only used once.Is doing 1% damage once per fight really too much? Note that devastation fist only comes in the vendor bought version only, there is no adept 3 (like all other BL spells) and has the hit chance of an app2? spell. So 12% harder to hit against a raid target that is already hard to hit. The brawler who successfully lands a devastation fist attack is stifled for 10 seconds. The power cost is very high (currently, I have no reason to believe power cost has changed).<<<<<Just to make it clear as some people have been mistaken with this. Devastation fist STIFLES THE BRAWLER who uses it not the target of the attack.>>>>>With that all said, I like the fact that devastation fist is now usable against all targets. 25% damage to heroics may be a little too much. 2-4k against epics is nice but, I think, a bit too little. However this change makes it to live it is an upgrade to a very little used skill. It improves a brawlers abilities a lot against heroics and gives them something extra to use with epics.What I would like to see happen is this (not necessarily all of these):Reduce the power cost or add an effect that gvies us a portion of the power spent back on a successful attack. Then you would still need a big chunk of power to use it and would lose it all if you miss, but on a successful attack you would be reimbursed some power. (That would work like a warlocks dark distortion line of spells)Give devastion fist a better to hit chance, even just zero bonus and allow it to work off a brawlers primary equiped weapon skill.Add a little more to the damage against epics. Currently 2-4k (number comes from someone with ~700 strength) increase to 3-6k with equivilent strength. Lower end only increases by 1k and upper end by 2k. Alternatively increase to 4-5k shorter range and not much of an increase to damage.This skilled was compared to an assassins decapitate (http://www.eq2flames.com/bruisers/10812-devastation-fist-2-0-a.html) That does about 15k damage every 15 minutes, not as good DPS as an assassins other CA's just a nice big hit. If the idea is to keep devastation fist doing similar damage to that then just removing the negative hit chance and a reduction in power cost would be fine.Anyway it's late and I'm rambling... I hope at least some of that makes sense.

Kaoru

09-01-2007, 01:22 AM

Noaani

09-01-2007, 01:43 AM

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because its use is to increase your dps when the mob is already gonna die anyway. I'd like skills that are good to use in a challenging fight to contribute to my dps in that challenging fight, not to inflate my zonewide by overkilling trash mobs. </blockquote>If brawlers are to be given more time on raids, and let in to top end raid guilds, one of the things they need to do is contribute to DPS more than they are now. DPS is not the differance between killing a mob and not killing it, but simple the differance between killing a mob now and killing it in an hour (if you can keep the MT alive for long enough, he will be able to kill most mobs in the game). That said, exactly when the damage is done to a mob is immaterial, as long as it is done and is displayed on the parse.How exactly do you see 4 - 5k damage in the middle of a fight being any differant to 4 - 5k damage at the end of a fight? By the time the mob is dead, both are as insignificant as each other, when looked at a mob of 4 million HP.

Noaani

09-01-2007, 01:46 AM

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some of us think it is now too ineffective. You say its perfectly fine, we say it should be higher damage to be useful. </blockquote>Same can be said about most classes Bloodlines spell. I haven't used mine since T5, and the change made reciently to it makes no differance (it went from a 12 meter spell to a 35 meter spell, but since I am almost always within 5 meters of a mob on a raid, the range makes no differance to me, and it does a lot less damage than DF as well).This change is an improvement from what it is on live, be happy with that.

Couching

09-01-2007, 01:58 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some of us think it is now too ineffective. You say its perfectly fine, we say it should be higher damage to be useful. </blockquote>Same can be said about most classes Bloodlines spell. I haven't used mine since T5, and the change made reciently to it makes no differance (it went from a 12 meter spell to a 35 meter spell, but since I am almost always within 5 meters of a mob on a raid, the range makes no differance to me, and it does a lot less damage than DF as well).This change is an improvement from what it is on live, be happy with that.</blockquote>Don't trolling here since you have no idea of monk.Many monks have posted crystal clear that for monk, we will deal less dps if we use DF with 10 sec stifle. Stop trolling and ask people be happy. Why should we be happy when we did less damage with DF? For bruiser, it's possible to find 10 sec window that all CAs are down but it's impossible for monk. We are going to miss 2 to 6 CAs depending on your actual haste to cast DF. Let me say it again, the missing CAs damage is larger than DF. It makes DF a totally useless for monk.To make it monk usable, the 10 sec stifle has to be removed. Otherwise, no point for monk to cast it. Unless you want to lower your dps in raid.

Timaarit

09-01-2007, 04:13 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote>Umm, no. What really determines how much DPS given CA or spell does, you need to look at casting time, recovery time, reuse time AND the time spent fighting within the reuse time. So a CA that does 3,5k damage with 300s reuse timer will do a bit under 12 DPS in a 5 min fight. On the other hand, if you spend 60s fighting, the it does a bit under 60 DPS.As a monk, I really could care less about an attack that had 0,5s casting time and even if it did 5k damage when it stifles you for 10s and has 5 min reuse time.</blockquote>If that were the cast, Ice Nova would have a total DPS of less than Sunstrike, and no wizard in their right mind would ever cast it. I am glad the wizard community is smart enough to realise how to figure out how much DPS a spell or CA is, maybe the monk community will catch up soon.The reason recast time is not a factor is simply because while the recast is ticking away, you are able to do other things. You have more than one CA to use. When you are about to use a CA, you are restricting yourself to that one CA for the total cast time of it (and you are restricting yourself to not using other CAs for the recovery time as well, but you are still able to auto attack in that time). Thus, the time it takes to put out the damage of a given CA is purely the time it takes to cast that CA.I'll use some wizard examples as a demontration (am not able to log on atm, so I am going by some spreadsheets that are a few months old, but were accurate at the time I made them, with the gear I had on at the time).Sunstrike, damage range of 887 - 1610, average of 1248.5 per cast. 2 second casting time, 3 second recast.Ice Nova, damage range of 5378 - 9971, average of 7674.5 per cast. 4 second casting time, 45 second recast.Now, according to the "monk' way of thinking, Sunstrike is worth 249.7 DPS to a wizard, and Ice Nova is worth 156.622 DPS. If this were the actual case, no raiding wizard in their right mind would ever cast Ice Nova on a raid. It would not be DPS efficient (its not as power efficient as sunstrike either).However, the actual way to figure this out is by purely using the casting time, and totally ignoring the recast. Thus, it turns out that Ice Nova is worth 1918.625 DPS per cast, and Sunstrike is worth 624.25 DPS. As it happens, every raiding wizard in the game will tell you they cast Ice Nova as soon as it is up, in order to maximise DPS, and most will never cast sunstrike, as it is a last resort, and the lowest DPS spell in our spellbook (except for our Bloodlines spell from memory, but I am unable to log on to double check that).And one more time, for clarification, being stifled while you are waiting for the next pull will not lower your DPS at all.</blockquote>Uh, does your Ice Nova stifle you? Does it have 5 min reuse timer? Didn't think so either, thus your example is a pure strawman and has nothing to do with the Devastation Fist.And the calculations are correct, they really infuence the wizards DPS by the amount you wrote. But what you missed due to the strawman, is that to gain that DPS, you need to be constantly casting them. Missing every other will drop the DPS they give by 50%.So wizards way of thinking might fit wizards but it definitely does not fit monks using devastation fist.And with 3k damage, you really cannot time the CA so that it will be the last CA to hit any given mob. And secondly, the DPS it gives will be further diminished if you have to wait till the very end in order to use it.So one more time, Devastation Fist in its current for is totally useless skill against an epic of any kind. A monk will most likely end up losing more DPS that gain when using it.

Sapphirius

09-01-2007, 04:14 AM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>For bruiser, it's possible to find 10 sec window that all CAs are down but it's impossible for monk. We are going to miss 2 to 6 CAs depending on your actual haste to cast DF. Let me say it again, the missing CAs damage is larger than DF. It makes DF a totally useless for monk.To make it monk usable, the 10 sec stifle has to be removed. Otherwise, no point for monk to cast it. Unless you want to lower your dps in raid.</blockquote>QFT.

Zarafein

09-01-2007, 05:12 AM

I wouldn't like to see it gimped itoo much for grouping/solo to make it half usefull for raids, when it would even lose it's old use , it may be better to find different abilitys and give them more use against epics. Can't a bonus to the current fixed damage solve the problem? It's just too less imo for power cost+recast+stifle.

tt66

09-01-2007, 07:22 AM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>tt66 the testing portion came in when it was applied to specific nameds that have in excess of 5m HP.1% does not sound like a large number untill you apply it to other large numbers.50k Damage every five minutes is rather significant. Then even more so if Jester's Cap is applied before every use.You are looking at the potential to do well in excess of 50k damage 3 or 4 times a fight against some nameds.</blockquote>??? That's the weirdest argument I've ever heard. How, precisely, could 1% of an epic's health EVER not be a large number. It's a flippin' epic. Yes, 50k every 5 minutes is significant. It's a whole 166dps, modal damage, whatever, I haven't been following the rest of the maths-based splurge. It's also the best you'll ever do with the CA, given we're talking about using it on the hardest mobs in the game. It's also a scenario that most of us will never see.

BChizzle

09-01-2007, 07:42 AM

I take back everything I said. I had a epiphany! Just use dev fist on the heroic adds that always spawn, they have what 75-100k health? Boom there is our 25k hit. Can't wait to rock the parse!EDIT: Here comes the 25% nerf!

EQ2Luv

09-01-2007, 02:29 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because its use is to increase your dps when the mob is already gonna die anyway. I'd like skills that are good to use in a challenging fight to contribute to my dps in that challenging fight, not to inflate my zonewide by overkilling trash mobs. </blockquote>If brawlers are to be given more time on raids, and let in to top end raid guilds, one of the things they need to do is contribute to DPS more than they are now. DPS is not the differance between killing a mob and not killing it, but simple the differance between killing a mob now and killing it in an hour (if you can keep the MT alive for long enough, he will be able to kill most mobs in the game). That said, exactly when the damage is done to a mob is immaterial, as long as it is done and is displayed on the parse.How exactly do you see 4 - 5k damage in the middle of a fight being any differant to 4 - 5k damage at the end of a fight? By the time the mob is dead, both are as insignificant as each other, when looked at a mob of 4 million HP.</blockquote>You hit the nail on the head. We need to do more dps (or be better tanks) in order to be useful in top end raid guilds. This spell is INSIGNIFICANT. That's why we arent happy. We need more dps. We didnt get more dps.(We need more uncontested avoidance. We aren't getting more uncontested avoidance.)By your own concessions, why should we be happy? The reason this spell is not as good as a 4k nuke that you can use in the middle of battle is because the battle only ends once -- if its a long battle, it would be nice to be able to use this spell more than once per fight. Unfortunately, we can't because its not dps efficient due to the stifle, and its not power efficient. Thus the dev fist is even less significant than it appears to be. Moreover, this spell will only be used if i have power to spare -- I only have power to spare in TRIVIAL fights. I want to contribute DPS in CHALLENGING fights. If you need me to say it more ways, let me know. You're a manaburn wizard I'm sure? Manaburn is a great way to inflate your parse while contributing very little in challenging fights (i.e. those where you don't have any power to use manaburn.) Oo look I did 60000 damage to 12 trash mobs. Well that's great because you helped clear the annoying trash faster, but I'd rather have someone who can lay down mega damage on the earthen rumbler. (This is just an example -- it may not apply to you if you have power regen hacks from Throne or LoN.)

RustyB

09-01-2007, 03:53 PM

The first screenshot I seen of Devastation fist where it would inflict 4% of health in damage seemed like a really nice upgrade, but then reducing it to do barely more than a Bruisers backstab is pretty much just a big F U to the brawlers out there.you do something really nice for the raiding brawlers out there and then you nerf the crap out of it before it even hits live servers yet keep it at a 10 second stifle.. what kind of stoopid joke is that?

Zabjade

09-01-2007, 08:35 PM

The worst kind but apparently par for the course when it comes to Brawlers, maybe we need more people on our side at this EG.fla**s site, It is obvious that the developers listen more to them then to use here.

BChizzle

09-02-2007, 04:43 AM

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote>The worst kind but apparently par for the course when it comes to Brawlers, maybe we need more people on our side at this EG.fla**s site, It is obvious that the developers listen more to them then to use here. </blockquote>In all fairness, the eq2flames site has many of our high end raiders. Thats the only change they have made, just to raiding. Anyhow, yes it is weird that on an epic encouncter I will be able to do more dmg to a heroic add then I would hitting the named. Till they nerf that too.

Belaythien

09-02-2007, 10:36 AM

So you are complaining that your spell got better by working on heroics but it didn't get good enough for you? Do you know how Shadowknights are drooling when they see the changes bruisers got in the last GU? It's not even funny to see the things you get while SKs loose more and more.

Sapphirius

09-02-2007, 11:01 AM

mr23sgte

09-02-2007, 11:06 AM

*Make it a longer recast on epicsMake it so we can only use it twice on the same epicMake it the end of a combo of CAs hits, if one misses we cannot use itMake it 1% of the targets current HitpointsMake it Increase our hate by 5 PositionsHave it cast FD on caster for 10 secondsMake it .5% of HitpointsPersonally, I think it could still use a doubling or tripling in Damage against Epics to become worthwhile. The idea of "keep % values and institute a cap based on our Health" would simultaneously cap the damage against epics and everything else (the last thing we need is MORE soloing benefits really), putting control of the damage in the players hands (getting the player more involved in the process, which equates to more fun), as well as making the CA worthwhile to cast and retains a "wow" factor (10k+ damage possibility). AND it still scales it to level.A 3k damage attack doesn't need a 10 second stifle. you said yourself that the damage and recast equates to a high damage hit... so with a 10s stifle added to reduce the places it can be used simply makes this worse.However, where a 3k hit doesn't need a 10s stifle, a 25% damage to heroics might.The problem is you have WILDLY varying results that keep the SAME drawbacks.. all in the same CA. This is very poor mechanics, as it basically make this ability better (in the sense of HIGHER DAMAGE) in different situations without a reason behind it.Why is it okay to deal 100% damage against a 10-20k solo mob, but not okay to do 10-20k damage against an Epic? The changes made to this Combat Art scream "Brawlers need to do better in solo, but raid level they are fine and don't need as much".This is EXACTLY the OPPOSITE of what our class needs!This needs to be normalized, and basing it on Health for capping damage would be a perfect compromise. Or any of a list of changes to make this at least a higher damage against Epics.*This Above was suggested on another thread by someone else -- GREAT IDEAS!!! We need help on Epic content to be viable in RAIDS not complaining about Heroic content. For God sake - nerf our solo a tad and make us useful at raids if thats the communitys complaint!

RustyB

09-02-2007, 11:45 AM

<cite>Belaythien wrote:</cite><blockquote>So you are complaining that your spell got better by working on heroics but it didn't get good enough for you? Do you know how Shadowknights are drooling when they see the changes bruisers got in the last GU? It's not even funny to see the things you get while SKs loose more and more.</blockquote>do you even know what you're talkin about? SK's heal better, tank better, and for a small few who actually know how to play their class, solo better than brawlers.I can't think of one class that can actually go into an instance zone with 5 other dps and no healer and tank the entire zone without a single wipe. SK's are uber yet 3/4 of them complain like all the f'n time.A brawler that knows what they are doing cannot do half the things a well played SK can do.SoE tweaked a skill that brawlers had and really made it raid worthy then less then a week later they changed their minds and nerfed the crap out of it. They should've just left the stupid skill alone if they were just going to tease the brawler community.Monks and Bruisers are two great classes that are lots of fun to play, but when it comes down to it for raiding they are not nearly as useful as a ton of other classes. evey single brawler complaining on this thread imo has every f'n right to complain and you sir have no right popping on here talking about a completely different class just because you feel brawlers don't need any love.

Novusod

09-02-2007, 11:57 AM

<cite>Yerni@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>SoE tweaked a skill that brawlers had and really made it raid worthy then less then a week later they changed their minds and nerfed the crap out of it. They should've just left the stupid skill alone if they were just going to tease the brawler community.</blockquote>I couldn't have said it any better myself. Why does SoE do these things? All it does is cause people to get fed up cancel. I know it brought me one step closer to that fatefull day.

Couching

09-02-2007, 12:53 PM

People including Devs made a mistake that they thought DF is going to increase monk dps and we should be happy.The answer is NO with the new change of DW weapons in LU38.It's really sad that there isn't anyone who knows how to play monk in Devs. If they knew, they won't make DF, 2k-3.8k with 10 sec stun.Why DF won't increase monk dps?In LU38, DW weapons are going to be 1.33 slowed. Currently, high end monk weapons, such as avatar or contested mayong or sod weapon, are all 2.5 delay. With 1.33 slowed, 2.5 becomes 3.3 delay.3.3 delay will be 1.5 (max haste) to 1.7 delay for monk in raid depending on how many haste you have. To max dps, timing CA between auto attack is the basic skill. With new change of DW, monk has to time CA between 1.5-1.7 sec depending on your haste.Monk has 2 fastest CAs (10 sec reuse and 1 can be 7.5 sec reuse with monk tree), 10 fast CA (30 sec reuse and 2 can be 22.5 sec reuse with monk tree), 2 slow CAs (1 minute reuse, dragonbreath is reduce from 75 sec to 59 sec by monk tree). The total are 14 CAs. In a 30 sec window, it will be 17 CAs without 2 slow CAs or 19 CAs with 2 slow CAs.In best case, max haste, so that we can cast CA every 1.5 sec. In the first 30 sec window, we have 17 CAs, assuming 2 slow CAs didn't up, to cast. It takes 25.5 sec. In other word, we have only 4.5 sec that all of CAs are not up. If we get stifle for 10 sec, we will lose 3 CAs in the next 30 sec window. (We have 19 CAs to cast and only 24.5 sec to cast)In worst case, 2.5 delay weapon is 1.7 delay without max haste, 1.7*17 = 28.9 sec. In other word, we have only 1.1 sec that all of CAs are not up. If we get 10 sec stifle, we will lose 7 CAs. (We have 19 CAs to cast and only 21.9 sec to cast)Moreover, I didn't count Ring of 4 winds (reduce 5% reuse time) and 12% reduction on reuse time (brawler tree agi line). If you have Ring of 4 winds with agi line, you will lose more CAs.See, that's why DF is not an upgrade for monk. We didn't get more dps with casting DF if we are stifle with 10 sec. Devs, please fix it so that monk can use DF as useful as bruiser !It didn't make any sense that monks get lower dps with casting DF.

tt66

09-02-2007, 02:31 PM

hehe. Couching, I agree with you totally but you might want to simplify your post to something like :"Timing CAs for optimal DPS means that there is never an occasion when the stifle effect of Dev Fist result in a net gain of DPS compared to the damage of Dev Fist itself".Because relying on actual math to prove a point to the people that were apparently shocked that 1% of 6 million is still quite a lot, seems fruitless.

Couching

09-02-2007, 03:13 PM

Because some people including Devs can't understand why monk will deal less damage if we cast DF and stifle ourselves for 10 sec.It's no problem for bruiser to find out a 10 sec window that all CAs are down and they won't lose any damage from CAs but not Monks.

tt66

09-02-2007, 04:32 PM

Dunno about that mate, I've never found a 10 second window myself as a bruiser. Then again, I am AGI specc'd I suppose..I think the Devs do understand.. witness Aeralik and his "you can always use it if the mob is about to die, or if you're going to be out of range of the mob for the next 10 seconds anyway" comment over on <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/bruisers/10812-devastation-fist-2-0-a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">EQ2flames.com</a>They know that the stifle means it's not really worth using... they just don't seem to care.

Noaani

09-02-2007, 05:04 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because some people including Devs can't understand why monk will deal less damage if we cast DF and stifle ourselves for 10 sec.It's no problem for bruiser to find out a 10 sec window that all CAs are down and they won't lose any damage from CAs but not Monks.</blockquote>FFS.Answer me this. If you have a CA that is on a 5 minute recast timer, and is best cast at the very end of a fight, when should you cast it?Being stifled at the end of a fight does not cut in to your DPS, I am sure we can all agree. And since there are about 3 fights in the game that last longer than 5 minutes, you will only ever be able to use it once per fight anyway.The argument seems to be then that why bother using it at all if the mob is at 2%, as the raid has already won, right? What if everyone in the raid said the same thing. "Sweet, Mayong is at 2%, I'm off for some dinner now guys, grats and all that".The mob is not dead until there is a corpse, thus you keep DPS'ing your [Removed for Content] off until there is a corpse.If you are not willing to go that extra little bit to increase your DPS, no wonder your parses look like [Removed for Content]. Should the devs change your CAs just because you are too lazy to go that last little bit? Its what every other DPS class does, why should you get lazy in the last 2% of a fight?This CA has a defined use, and you are arguing about how useless it is in other situations. Thats like me saying how useless my heat based spells are on mobs that are immune to heat based damage (yes, there ARE still some mobs IMMUNE to heat damage), and saying I want the damage on all my heat based spells doubled (or trippled) because they are not useful in every situation.Instead of [Removed for Content] about it, I use other spells, ones that are better suited to the position I am in at that point in time, and I save my heat based spells (the vast majority of my single tartget DPS) for mobs that are NOT immune to heat based spells.Start doing the same. Realise this CA is not, and never will be, an easy button to better DPS. Its a means to allow you to increase your ZW parses on raids by a little bit (a little in zones without heroics, a LOT when you are fighting mobs with heroic adds).

Sapphirius

09-02-2007, 05:47 PM

Answer me this, Naomi.<ul><li>If you have one spell that will do 3K damage for 500 power that will stifle you for 10 seconds, and you have 2 spells that will do 1.5K damage for 100 power with no stifle or penalty and can be cast within a second of each other, which one are you going to be more likely to use?</li><li>If you're at the end of a fight, how much power do you actually have left to use? My monk doesn't have much left unless she's lucky to be grouped with a bard or chanter, or the druid in her group is kind enough to give her Spirit of the Bat. <mutters something about selfish druids and winks></li><li>How good are you at timing your big 10 second stifle nuke just right so that you get the killing shot with it and aren't losing damage at the cost of more power?</li></ul>People have already explained to you in detail that the rules of "DPSing" that you are trying to apply to brawlers do not work that way. Rather than sit there and continue to repeat yourself, perhaps you might try listening? Even then, those who have tested DF out with the current changes say that it only increases ZW DPS by a whopping 16. That's it. Whooo! I tell you what; those are some big DPS numbers there.Even PaganSpirit's arguments about the value of DF hinged upon the brawler being given Jester's Cap. Sorry, but in the raids I go on, if a bard gave Jester's Cap to a brawler instead of a scout or caster, he'd be slapped and kicked out. There's better and more beneficial targets.

Couching

09-02-2007, 06:02 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because some people including Devs can't understand why monk will deal less damage if we cast DF and stifle ourselves for 10 sec.It's no problem for bruiser to find out a 10 sec window that all CAs are down and they won't lose any damage from CAs but not Monks.</blockquote>FFS.Answer me this. If you have a CA that is on a 5 minute recast timer, and is best cast at the very end of a fight, when should you cast it?Being stifled at the end of a fight does not cut in to your DPS, I am sure we can all agree. And since there are about 3 fights in the game that last longer than 5 minutes, you will only ever be able to use it once per fight anyway.The argument seems to be then that why bother using it at all if the mob is at 2%, as the raid has already won, right? What if everyone in the raid said the same thing. "Sweet, Mayong is at 2%, I'm off for some dinner now guys, grats and all that".The mob is not dead until there is a corpse, thus you keep DPS'ing your [I cannot control my vocabulary] off until there is a corpse.If you are not willing to go that extra little bit to increase your DPS, no wonder your parses look like [I cannot control my vocabulary]. Should the devs change your CAs just because you are too lazy to go that last little bit? Its what every other DPS class does, why should you get lazy in the last 2% of a fight?This CA has a defined use, and you are arguing about how useless it is in other situations. Thats like me saying how useless my heat based spells are on mobs that are immune to heat based damage (yes, there ARE still some mobs IMMUNE to heat damage), and saying I want the damage on all my heat based spells doubled (or trippled) because they are not useful in every situation.Instead of [I cannot control my vocabulary] about it, I use other spells, ones that are better suited to the position I am in at that point in time, and I save my heat based spells (the vast majority of my single tartget DPS) for mobs that are NOT immune to heat based spells.Start doing the same. Realise this CA is not, and never will be, an easy button to better DPS. Its a means to allow you to increase your ZW parses on raids by a little bit (a little in zones without heroics, a LOT when you are fighting mobs with heroic adds).</blockquote>This is the thread for brawlers to post our feedbacks for brawler skill to designers. Please don't be childish and keep trolling in this thread.Even dev was suggesting us to cast DF at 5%. Now, you are saying that we have to cast DF at 2% rather than 5%?Come on, grow up, ok? We are not satisfied the game design of brawlers and sharing our feedbacks with game Devs.Designer said that this CA can be cast at 5% to avoid dps lose. My post has shown that even at 5%, it's still unworthy to cast it.Let me tell you, the only way to stop wasting brawler dps to cast DF is casting it just right before mob dying. If that's the case, DF was highly limited and almost useless to ZW dps for brawler. Not to say, if DF is tied to cast on 0% target, DF is totally useless in a sustain fight even the fight last over 10 minutes. You will lose your total dps if you use DF before 0% on named. Then, what's the point to have 3 minute reuse? It's a simple logic, if a CA is up, player should be able to use it to deal more damage than not using it. With current design, we can't use DF untill mob is 0% even DF is up. The purpose and usefulness of 3 minute reuse in DF is totally doomed.We are against this idea since DF was nerfed so bad, it shouldn't be limited to 1 sec before mob got killed.No matter Devs take it or not, it's our right to share our feedbacks.

Noaani

09-02-2007, 08:19 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is the thread for brawlers to post our feedbacks for brawler skill to designers. </blockquote>3 accounts, 9 level 70 adventurers, 12 adventurers ranging from 32 - 65. 3 of these characters are brawlers. I am providing my feedback, just as you are. I do not raid on a brawler, however, so any raiding comparisons I make are based on my main raiding character, a wizard. I have as much right to post my thoughts on this change as you do. It affects 3 of my characters, how many of your characters does it affect again?<blockquote>Even dev was suggesting us to cast DF at 5%. Now, you are saying that we have to cast DF at 2% rather than 5%?</blockquote>He suggested 5%, which is fine. I suggested 2% because i know it is not at all hard to time a 0.5 second casting CA or spell in the last 2% of a mobs health.

Noaani

09-02-2007, 08:40 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Answer me this, Naomi.<ul><li>If you have one spell that will do 3K damage for 500 power that will stifle you for 10 seconds, and you have 2 spells that will do 1.5K damage for 100 power with no stifle or penalty and can be cast within a second of each other, which one are you going to be more likely to use?</li></ul></blockquote>The one that does the most damage, which in this situation is clearly DF. At the end of a fight I am able to replenish power, and once again, being stifled while I am not in combat has no affect at all.<blockquote><li>If you're at the end of a fight, how much power do you actually have left to use? My monk doesn't have much left unless she's lucky to be grouped with a bard or chanter, or the druid in her group is kind enough to give her Spirit of the Bat. <mutters something about selfish druids and winks></li></blockquote>500 power is nothing, if you do not have 500 power left after a fight, except for fights with power drains, your raid is lacking DPS. Infact, if you are at less than 50% power on a fight without a power drain (with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions in the either game), your raid is lacking DPS.Every group in an organised raid should have a bard or a chanter, they are not that hard to find. If power truely IS that much of an issue, and is not such an issue for the warden you mentioned (why a monk would be in a group with a warden I will never know...), ask for Spirit of the Bat, although I would be supprised if that spell actually made any difference.<blockquote><li>How good are you at timing your big 10 second stifle nuke just right so that you get the killing shot with it and aren't losing damage at the cost of more power?</li></blockquote>I do it practically every fight with my wizard, and litterally every fight with my Inquisitor (on the occasion I raid with him), timing a fast casting spell or CA to land within the last second or so of a mobs life is not at all hard, why would you think it is? Even if you have an inquisitor using verdict, its not at all hard to get it in still.<blockquote>People have already explained to you in detail that the rules of "DPSing" that you are trying to apply to brawlers do not work that way. Rather than sit there and continue to repeat yourself, perhaps you might try listening? Even then, those who have tested DF out with the current changes say that it only increases ZW DPS by a whopping 16. That's it. Whooo! I tell you what; those are some big DPS numbers there.</blockquote>16 DPS zonewide is better than no DPS zonewide, ya?No one has told me anything about DPS in this, or any other thread for that matter, that I haven't been aware of since T5. People have tried to convince me of some miss-conceptions about DPS, ones that seem to be common acceptance among monks (do not figure recast in to how much DPS a CA does, unless you want to make it so recast timers do not count down out of combat, the fact that they do means recast timers are only a factor for spells and CAs with a recast of less time than a single given fight).<blockquote>Even PaganSpirit's arguments about the value of DF hinged upon the brawler being given Jester's Cap. Sorry, but in the raids I go on, if a bard gave Jester's Cap to a brawler instead of a scout or caster, he'd be slapped and kicked out. There's better and more beneficial targets.</blockquote>Agreed, JC on a brawler is stupid, to say the least. However, the value he placed on it hinged as much on the pull speed of his raid as it did on anything else. If his raid was pulling one mob every 5 minutes, he would have it up for every fight. If they were pulling one mob every minute, he would only have it up for one out of every five fights. This will be directly reflected in his zonewide DPS.

Sapphirius

09-02-2007, 09:28 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is the thread for brawlers to post our feedbacks for brawler skill to designers. </blockquote>3 accounts, 9 level 70 adventurers, 12 adventurers ranging from 32 - 65. 3 of these characters are brawlers. I am providing my feedback, just as you are. I do not raid on a brawler, however, so any raiding comparisons I make are based on my main raiding character, a wizard. I have as much right to post my thoughts on this change as you do. It affects 3 of my characters, how many of your characters does it affect again?</blockquote>Ya see. Here's where I cry shenanigans. Now, I know you're just making stuff up to sound self-important.Sorry, but if you had 3 brawlers, then you would already know that the rules of DPS you're trying to apply to raiding brawlers do not apply. Monks/bruisers are not the same as wizards and do their damage differently. Oh, but wait! You've just, by your own admission, stated that you do not raid on your three brawlers. Every brawler in this thread has already stated that their concerns with the DF nerf isn't about grouping and solo content. They all pretty much agree that we're fine in that area. In fact, we're more than fine in that area.We are focused on the raiding aspects, and let me tell you, sister. Raiding on a brawler is way different than soloing or grouping on one.

Sapphirius

09-02-2007, 09:32 PM

NM. I made my point in the above post.

PantherXX

09-02-2007, 11:50 PM

Seriously, Pagan and Noaani, why isn't Vedict overpowered? Is it only becase you have never seen it on a parse?And please keep in mind that I feel the immunity should be permenant so it can be used once per fight. My major complaint here is that one of the worst (the worst?) raiding classes got thrown a little bone which did need a little tweaking. Instead, it got converted to a highly situational ability because people playing raid classes felt somehow theratened by it.

EQ2Luv

09-03-2007, 12:06 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>No one has told me anything about DPS in this, or any other thread for that matter, that I haven't been aware of since T5. People have tried to convince me of some miss-conceptions about DPS, ones that seem to be common acceptance among monks (do not figure recast in to how much DPS a CA does, unless you want to make it so recast timers do not count down out of combat, the fact that they do means recast timers are only a factor for spells and CAs with a recast of less time than a single given fight).</blockquote>There are a lot of spells that have a recast time less than a single fight. For monks it's all except 1 spell that are under 30 seconds. Wizards have quite a few too. Also, the thing about recast timers counting down in vs. out of combat doesn't make much sense to me. If you're chain pulling then there is no 'out of combat' period. If you aren't, it still matters how large the lull is between pulls. I fail to see how my example would be any different if you waited after the combat for the spells to come back up. Your order of casting spells does less total damage in one combat than the other order. If you wait for recasts to come back, my order will do more damage in the next combat as well. It seems to me that you are the one who has stated an incorrect perception about DPS. You haven't even responded to my example that addressed your view of how to improve monk (and wizard) dps. We are giving feedback. This is a forum for feedback. Telling us to stop giving feedback (or in your words '[I cannot control my vocabulary] about it' ) is not constructive. Your posts are not presented as feedback, they are presented as flames of monk players that are full of condescension. You are not giving feedback, you are insulting monks, stating half-thruths and contradictions, and flaming people who are more correct than yourself. What is wrong with saying that we want it to be useful in more situations? This spell is in testing--we are giving feedback on it. That is the difference between this and your fire spells. That and the fact that the situations where fire spells are useless are a lot fewer than the ones where this spell is. You are right that this spell belongs on your hotbar. Whether or not the spell is as good as it 'should be' is a matter of opinion. Those who disagree with your opinion are not automatically wrong, and certainly not just because they are monks. You are oversimplifying things in so many of your statements that I cannot quote them all.

Couching

09-03-2007, 12:15 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is the thread for brawlers to post our feedbacks for brawler skill to designers. </blockquote>3 accounts, 9 level 70 adventurers, 12 adventurers ranging from 32 - 65. 3 of these characters are brawlers. I am providing my feedback, just as you are. I do not raid on a brawler, however, so any raiding comparisons I make are based on my main raiding character, a wizard. I have as much right to post my thoughts on this change as you do. It affects 3 of my characters, how many of your characters does it affect again?<blockquote>Even dev was suggesting us to cast DF at 5%. Now, you are saying that we have to cast DF at 2% rather than 5%?</blockquote>He suggested 5%, which is fine. I suggested 2% because i know it is not at all hard to time a 0.5 second casting CA or spell in the last 2% of a mobs health.</blockquote>If you really have 3 brawlers, you won't say that 500 power isn't a big deal for brawler. Seriously, post less and play your brawler more. Check how many power you have on your brawler. Most brawlers have only 3-4k power. 500 power is about 1/6-1/8. It's ridiculous.Not to say, even if you really have 3 brawlers, you have no right to push other brawlers to accept your point that DF is fine to cast at 2%. It's also ridiculous to compare wiz and brawler. It's same as comparing apple and orange. Casters in my guild have 8k+ with self buff and they have more than 9k in raid. I have only 4.4k power self buff with same quality gears. Not to say, they have by far more FT gears and power drain proc gears than I do.500 power for merely 2k-3.8k damage with 10 sec stifle is unacceptable for most brawlers. Of course, your 3 brawlers are excluded. You are so happy with it. Fine, but stop trolling to other brawlers.Moreover, it's a stupid design to enforce DF to be useful on mob which is dying. Since the reuse time of DF is 3 minutes, we should be able to use it when it's up and deal more damage rather than lower our dps. If the DF is designed to cast on mob which is dying, it should be 15 minutes on reuse with 15k damage. Otherwise, 3 minutes reuse is idiotic since you can't even use it or you will lower your dps. What's the point to make it 3 minutes reuse then?

Timaarit

09-03-2007, 02:56 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because some people including Devs can't understand why monk will deal less damage if we cast DF and stifle ourselves for 10 sec.It's no problem for bruiser to find out a 10 sec window that all CAs are down and they won't lose any damage from CAs but not Monks.</blockquote>FFS.Answer me this. If you have a CA that is on a 5 minute recast timer, and is best cast at the very end of a fight, when should you cast it?Being stifled at the end of a fight does not cut in to your DPS, I am sure we can all agree. And since there are about 3 fights in the game that last longer than 5 minutes, you will only ever be able to use it once per fight anyway.The argument seems to be then that why bother using it at all if the mob is at 2%, as the raid has already won, right? What if everyone in the raid said the same thing. "Sweet, Mayong is at 2%, I'm off for some dinner now guys, grats and all that".The mob is not dead until there is a corpse, thus you keep DPS'ing your [I cannot control my vocabulary] off until there is a corpse.If you are not willing to go that extra little bit to increase your DPS, no wonder your parses look like [I cannot control my vocabulary]. Should the devs change your CAs just because you are too lazy to go that last little bit? Its what every other DPS class does, why should you get lazy in the last 2% of a fight?This CA has a defined use, and you are arguing about how useless it is in other situations. Thats like me saying how useless my heat based spells are on mobs that are immune to heat based damage (yes, there ARE still some mobs IMMUNE to heat damage), and saying I want the damage on all my heat based spells doubled (or trippled) because they are not useful in every situation.Instead of [I cannot control my vocabulary] about it, I use other spells, ones that are better suited to the position I am in at that point in time, and I save my heat based spells (the vast majority of my single tartget DPS) for mobs that are NOT immune to heat based spells.Start doing the same. Realise this CA is not, and never will be, an easy button to better DPS. Its a means to allow you to increase your ZW parses on raids by a little bit (a little in zones without heroics, a LOT when you are fighting mobs with heroic adds).</blockquote>FFS. Answer me this Noaani: you have a skill that stifles you for 10 seconds and 14 other CA's. Now how on earth will you be able to time you 3k damage CA so that you wouldn't have time to use any other CA before the mob is dead? How? Also how will you be able to time all your CA's so that they wouldn't even be up at this point so that while you were stifled, none of them would be reusable before the mob is dead?Short answer; you cant and thus your message is pointless.

tt66

09-03-2007, 04:30 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is the thread for brawlers to post our feedbacks for brawler skill to designers. </blockquote>3 accounts, 9 level 70 adventurers, 12 adventurers ranging from 32 - 65. 3 of these characters are brawlers. I am providing my feedback, just as you are. I do not raid on a brawler, however, so any raiding comparisons I make are based on my main raiding character, a wizard. I have as much right to post my thoughts on this change as you do. It affects 3 of my characters, how many of your characters does it affect again?<blockquote>Even dev was suggesting us to cast DF at 5%. Now, you are saying that we have to cast DF at 2% rather than 5%?</blockquote>He suggested 5%, which is fine. I suggested 2% because i know it is not at all hard to time a 0.5 second casting CA or spell in the last 2% of a mobs health.</blockquote>You know, as soon as Couching posted that, I just knew you were going to come back with some sort of hyper-defensive "I have just as much right to voice my opinions" post.I'm pretty sure you're trying to start a flamewar to get the devs to ignore a useful post and all, given the way you seem to like derailing this thread, but in case you're actually being serious : Read what people are complaining about, and then realise that we are arguing about the lack of DF utility from a raiding perspective. If you don't raid on your brawler, then you really don't have much of an idea about what life is like for a raiding brawler. Do you have brawlers on your raid that you can ask to get their views? Their answers might suprise you.If your only experience with a brawler has been running around heroic content then I'd imagine most of what we're saying does indeed appear incomprehensible. We complain about things like avoidance, and dps, and these are things that simply aren't a problem when running around CoV/OOB. As with most MMOs, raiding is a totally different experience and so please bear that in mind when reading our posts.As it happens, I suspect the opportune time to cast DF is 3%, because at 2% the Inquisitors get to play with Verdict. Which, again, nobody seems to claim is overpowered....

Zabjade

09-03-2007, 02:28 PM

1% is not that overpowering, that leaves 99% for everyone else no matter the actual HP of the Epic.

Sapphirius

09-03-2007, 03:00 PM

This might make me pretty unpopular with most monks, but since the new DF changes got nerfed... i.e. this whole 1% information is kind of useless... It might be of more benefit for monks to focus more on a group buff than damage?Another monk suggested to me, and I agree, that a group buff with 7.5% double attack would give us just enough utility without being overpowered. This would make us more desireable on raids and give us a second group buff (considering we only have one). It would, in my opinion and my fellow monk's opinion, put us right about where we should be.EDIT: to clarify what I just said above...I KNOW that we do not currently have a double attack buff, nor are there any plans for us to obtain one. This is a WISH LIST kind of thing. It is something that I WISH monks had to give us more raid viability.(Sorry for the extra emphasis there, but it seems that most people just read half a statement and then go off on some strange tangent thinking people said something completely different than what they actually said.)

Zabjade

09-03-2007, 03:37 PM

The only problem is Monk's do not have a Double-Attack Buff, we have Haste Buffs. Bruisers are the ones lucky enough to have Double attack buffs. For a Monk to have any Double attack we need to disarm completely, forgoing stats and resist of said weapons (I mean really, if you want the bare handed look go for the wraps. Protect your hands so you can still earn a living with your tradeskills)<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Zarafein

09-03-2007, 03:40 PM

huh? don't know any bruiser only double attack source, whats the name of this buff?

Sapphirius

09-03-2007, 03:52 PM

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only problem is Monk's do not have a Double-Attack Buff, we have Haste Buffs. Bruisers are the ones lucky enough to have Double attack buffs. For a Monk to have any Double attack we need to disarm completely, forgoing stats and resist of said weapons (I mean really, if you want the bare handed look go for the wraps. Protect your hands so you can still earn a living with your tradeskills)<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>It's NOT a buff we already have. It's a buff that I wouldn't mind seeing us get. Please reread what you misinterpreted.<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Another monk suggested to me, and I agree, that a group buff with 7.5% double attack would give us just enough utility without being overpowered. This would make us more desireable on raids and give us a second group buff (considering we only have one).</blockquote>

Raidi Sovin'faile

09-03-2007, 05:20 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>No one has told me anything about DPS in this, or any other thread for that matter, that I haven't been aware of since T5. People have tried to convince me of some miss-conceptions about DPS, ones that seem to be common acceptance among monks (do not figure recast in to how much DPS a CA does, unless you want to make it so recast timers do not count down out of combat, the fact that they do means recast timers are only a factor for spells and CAs with a recast of less time than a single given fight).</blockquote>Well considering 90% of a melee classes CA's have a recast time less than the average fight, that would mean for the most part, recast timers are a factor in DPS for these classes.Geez.. if you have as many classes played as this, then I'd think you'd realize this by now. Not all classes are Wizards... heck, if Wizards only cast most of their spells once per fight, then they are pretty much one of the unique classes in the game for it... most others recast a LOT of their spells/CA's.The other problem with you equations have always been that it's Damage Per Second unless you add in the SECONDS factor.. at least the duration of the fight, if not the recast. Stop using the term DPS because it has NOTHING to do with your Damage Modal.In the end, an ability that STIFLES you must take into account the recast of your other spells. Brawlers both have abilities that can be recast within that time... Bruisers have fewer to worry about but they are still there.The FACT is that this ability will ALWAYS lower your DPS unless you can time it to get it off less than 10 seconds before the mob is dead. That is EXTREMELY prohibitive, as I've seen mobs sitting at 1% for longer than 10 seconds... at which point you would have done better to simply recast your other CAs in that time.Please understand the fact that having it so the only time to use this ability is based on your ability to predict the death of a mob, within 10 seconds, makes for a VERY small window to be valuable.It's basically an ability that is not going to sway a fight in any direction whatsoever.. and it has a high risk of lower the DPS you can do.If it was simply twice as much damage, or based on your health (maybe multiplied by 1.5 or so), then it would deserve the Stifle. As it is... they removed the Immunity for Epics because they realized how silly it is to put a 3k ability on an immunity... how about they either increase the damage and keep the immunity, or remove the stifle portion for using against Epics.

Kasar

09-03-2007, 06:11 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is the thread for brawlers to post our feedbacks for brawler skill to designers. </blockquote>3 accounts, 9 level 70 adventurers, 12 adventurers ranging from 32 - 65. 3 of these characters are brawlers. I am providing my feedback, just as you are. I do not raid on a brawler, however, so any raiding comparisons I make are based on my main raiding character, a wizard. I have as much right to post my thoughts on this change as you do. It affects 3 of my characters, how many of your characters does it affect again?</blockquote>Ya see. Here's where I cry shenanigans. Now, I know you're just making stuff up to sound self-important.Sorry, but if you had 3 brawlers, then you would already know that the rules of DPS you're trying to apply to raiding brawlers do not apply. Monks/bruisers are not the same as wizards and do their damage differently. Oh, but wait! You've just, by your own admission, stated that you do not raid on your three brawlers. Every brawler in this thread has already stated that their concerns with the DF nerf isn't about grouping and solo content. They all pretty much agree that we're fine in that area. In fact, we're more than fine in that area.We are focused on the raiding aspects, and let me tell you, sister. Raiding on a brawler is way different than soloing or grouping on one.</blockquote>I have all 24 classes. Obviously I know all. Though I don't know why you'd duplicate classes if you actually played all of the accounts yourself.But really.. 3k for a 10s stifle? My guardian can crit around that with no penalties. Just sounds like it's useless again for raiding.

acctlc

09-03-2007, 07:34 PM

I'd agree that 3k for an epic isn't worth casting this spell in most cases. I've played with the dev fist on heroics in LP on test and hit non crit damage around 7k. I don't really see the reasoning behind it hitting an epic for less than it will hit most heroics. Don't get me wrong..i'm not saying the heroic hit is overpowered. In fact it might get my monk on a few more pickup instance groups as dps and for that I am glad. Please consider upping the epic damage a bit tho.

Zabjade

09-03-2007, 11:02 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only problem is Monk's do not have a Double-Attack Buff, we have Haste Buffs. Bruisers are the ones lucky enough to have Double attack buffs. For a Monk to have any Double attack we need to disarm completely, forgoing stats and resist of said weapons (I mean really, if you want the bare handed look go for the wraps. Protect your hands so you can still earn a living with your tradeskills)<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>It's NOT a buff we already have. It's a buff that I wouldn't mind seeing us get. Please reread what you misinterpreted.I was not misinterpeting, I was stating the current situation. It has been on my wishlist as well along with a fix to our uncontested avoidance, so this is a non argument. I just wanted to clarify for others as a lot of people think we are like Bruisers and have a ton of DPS buffs when we don't.<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Another monk suggested to me, and I agree, that a group buff with 7.5% double attack would give us just enough utility without being overpowered. This would make us more desireable on raids and give us a second group buff (considering we only have one).</blockquote></blockquote>

Sapphirius

09-03-2007, 11:58 PM

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was not misinterpeting, I was stating the current situation. It has been on my wishlist as well along with a fix to our uncontested avoidance, so this is a non argument. I just wanted to clarify for others as a lot of people think we are like Bruisers and have a ton of DPS buffs when we don't.</blockquote><sighs> We can only hope?

Noaani

09-04-2007, 02:06 AM

<cite>Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well considering 90% of a melee classes CA's have a recast time less than the average fight, that would mean for the most part, recast timers are a factor in DPS for these classes.Geez.. if you have as many classes played as this, then I'd think you'd realize this by now. Not all classes are Wizards... heck, if Wizards only cast most of their spells once per fight, then they are pretty much one of the unique classes in the game for it... most others recast a LOT of their spells/CA's.</blockquote>In the specific instance of a brawler, this can become a lot simpler, so I guess I should make it simpler so people understand.In the case of single target mobs, brawlers (from memory) have no worthwhile CAs with a longer cast time than 0.5 seconds, thus, the DPS potential of each CA is simply (damage*2). Due to being a melee class, they will not always be casting a CA however, as to maximise their auto attack DPS (I am sure I am not telling anyone here anything new with this). So, in order for a brawler to be as effective as possable in a raid (this is for DPS, not for debuffs), all they need to do is prioritise their CAs in to which ones do the most damage.Brawler combat on raids can be described as a series of small opportunities to cast a single AA between auto attack swings. All you need to do is time yourself so that when you have the opportunity to cast a CA without interfering with your auto attack (which, as you all know, is about every 1.8 - 2 seconds), make sure you use the one that does the most damage out of the ones you have up.Sadly, it is that simple.There are other means of working out how to do this, but you will spend a lot more effort, a lot more time, and you will come up with the same answer (you would need to use falsified CAs in order to come to a conclusion that is any different than the above, or if you have certian CAs as adept 1s or lower and the rest as masters it will obviously alter the results of this some. Argue this point all you like, but this is one of the basics behind how every spell and combat art in the game has been desinged).If you continue to cast CAs based on their recast timer, you will be missing out on DPS. Recast timer, as I have tried to point out, is a good indicater of how often you will cast a spell or CA, thus will give you an idea of how much damage a given spell or CA will do over a period (zonewide for the most part). It is not, however, any sort of valid indicater of which spell or CA should be cast at any specific time (or, in the case of brawlers, it is not an indicator of which CA should be used when you have an opportunity to use one, as described above).<blockquote>The other problem with you equations have always been that it's Damage Per Second unless you add in the SECONDS factor.. at least the duration of the fight, if not the recast. Stop using the term DPS because it has NOTHING to do with your Damage Modal.</blockquote>Damage over time is not consistant, therefore, in order to get a DPS value, you take the damage dealt over a period of time, and divide it by the number of seconds in that period of time. In order to maximise this, you do everything in your power while that clock is ticking to maximise the damage you are doing. You maximise your damage, thus you maximise your DPS, the two terms are completely interchangable for the purposes of this discussion.<blockquote>The FACT is that this ability will ALWAYS lower your DPS unless you can time it to get it off less than 10 seconds before the mob is dead. That is EXTREMELY prohibitive, as I've seen mobs sitting at 1% for longer than 10 seconds... at which point you would have done better to simply recast your other CAs in that time.</blockquote>Prohibitive yes, I do not doubt that, and have not claimed otherwise. Useful against any mob it happens to be up against? Yes. Better than what it is on live? Also yes.It is a CA that, unlike anything else brawlers have ever had on raids, will require some thought about its use. It will mean brawlers will need to have the same knowledge of zones and mobs as some other classes need to have. They will need to know which mobs have heroic adds that this ability will be of great use one, as well as the need to judge a 5 minute recast to be 'up' for these fights whenever possable.<blockquote>Please understand the fact that having it so the only time to use this ability is based on your ability to predict the death of a mob, within 10 seconds, makes for a VERY small window to be valuable.</blockquote>Agreed.<blockquote>It's basically an ability that is not going to sway a fight in any direction whatsoever.. and it has a high risk of lower the DPS you can do.</blockquote>And why should it be? Its a bloodlines spell. No one else has a game breaking spell here, why should brawlers? As it happens, I consider the brawler Bloodlines spell to be the best of all classes.<blockquote>If it was simply twice as much damage, or based on your health (maybe multiplied by 1.5 or so), then it would deserve the Stifle. As it is... they removed the Immunity for Epics because they realized how silly it is to put a 3k ability on an immunity... how about they either increase the damage and keep the immunity, or remove the stifle portion for using against Epics.</blockquote>I had a post typed out (I think I had to leave before I posted it, and didn't get round to finishing it, but I may have posted it, don't remember), that I totally agree that this CA could use 1 of 2 changes: Either increase the damage against epics by 1000 (no more than that), or reduce the power cost (this may make it too useful for solo/grouping). I personally think either of these changes would be fine, but in its current state on test, it is an improvment over what it is on live.There are other changes that brawlers could use, as there are for every class. You guys saw how this went on test at first and got all excited thinking this was the fix you have been waiting for since LU#13 (before that actually). Well, this is a help, but not an all out fix for brawlers. As I am sure you will agree, an overall fix to monks and bruisers should not come from a CA that is common to both of you, as you both have different strengths and weaknesses. Also, I doubt any of you would think that an overall fix for your class should rest solely on a non upgradeable level 35 spell that is a common crafted alchemist item.

Noaani

09-04-2007, 02:20 AM

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote>You know, as soon as Couching posted that, I just knew you were going to come back with some sort of hyper-defensive "I have just as much right to voice my opinions" post.</blockquote>Someone who is not aware of my background claims I have no reason in a thread that is discussing a topic that affects 3 of my characters, is there any other response to give?<blockquote>I'm pretty sure you're trying to start a flamewar to get the devs to ignore a useful post and all, given the way you seem to like derailing this thread, but in case you're actually being serious : Read what people are complaining about, and then realise that we are arguing about the lack of DF utility from a raiding perspective. If you don't raid on your brawler, then you really don't have much of an idea about what life is like for a raiding brawler. Do you have brawlers on your raid that you can ask to get their views? Their answers might suprise you.</blockquote>We have a bruiser, he likes this change. Of course I asked him before I posted anything in this thread.If I was trying to start a flamewar, I would be able to do a much better job than I am currently doing.<blockquote>If your only experience with a brawler has been running around heroic content then I'd imagine most of what we're saying does indeed appear incomprehensible. We complain about things like avoidance, and dps, and these are things that simply aren't a problem when running around CoV/OOB. As with most MMOs, raiding is a totally different experience and so please bear that in mind when reading our posts.</blockquote>I should clarify. My raiding main is a wizard, as I have said. If my guild requires it, I am also able to raid on an inquisitor. However, when we do alt raids, or anything not from EoF, I raid on whatever class they need. I never raid current content on a brawler, but that is not to say I never raid on a brawler.Also, any brawler that considers avoidance to be an issue for them on raids is either fooling themselves or in a guild that needs to expand their roster. There are 2 mobs in the raiding game that should ever hit a brawler (that is from every tier combined), and any brawler that has trouble staying up to one of them has issues bigger than this thread could ever solve.<blockquote>As it happens, I suspect the opportune time to cast DF is 3%, because at 2% the Inquisitors get to play with Verdict. Which, again, nobody seems to claim is overpowered....</blockquote>If you have an inquisitor that you know is going to cast Verdict, this may hold true, although, verdict is not instant, so even at 2% you "should" have time for it to land.For the record, I think verdict is overpowered. Apparintly the only reason it has stayed in the game is because it does not show up on parses.

Zabjade

09-04-2007, 02:31 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>We have a bruiser, he likes this change. Of course I asked him before I posted anything in this thread.</blockquote>Bruisers and Monks have diffrent needs. They are also less broken of the Brawlers as seen by all of the Monk to Bruiser betrayals in top raiding guilds.

Noaani

09-04-2007, 02:37 AM

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>We have a bruiser, he likes this change. Of course I asked him before I posted anything in this thread.</blockquote>Bruisers and Monks have diffrent needs. They are also less broken of the Brawlers as seen by all of the Monk to Bruiser betrayals in top raiding guilds.</blockquote>I know, she used to be a monk.Edit: I don't know anyone that has a main raiding character that is a monk, so was unable to ask one, although I am well aware of the differences between the classes.

Couching

09-04-2007, 03:20 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>We have a bruiser, he likes this change. Of course I asked him before I posted anything in this thread.</blockquote>Bruisers and Monks have diffrent needs. They are also less broken of the Brawlers as seen by all of the Monk to Bruiser betrayals in top raiding guilds.</blockquote>I know, she used to be a monk.Edit: I don't know anyone that has a main raiding character that is a monk, so was unable to ask one, although I am well aware of the differences between the classes.</blockquote>Actually you are not. You don't hve a clue of how to play a raiding monk.I have already posted in a PERFECT condition that monk will lose 3CAs to 7 CAs depending on your actual haste in raid.In realty, there is always lag from server, network, computer, etc, and people will lose more CAs then what I have posted. That's why DF with 10 sec stifle is totally crap and unacceptable for monk. It didn't make any sense to design a CA which lower player's dps.For Devs:Casting DF on 0% of mob is not the solution since a lot of high end fights are longer than 3 minutes. For example, avatars and contested mayong. Even most named in EH or mayong fights in mmis last longer than 3 minutes.In a lot of sustained fights, people don't have 500 power at 0% of mob since a lot of mobs have aoe power drain. Not every group has both bard and enchanter in the raid. Seriously, it's contradiction to the goal of inviting more fighters to the raids. You can't design a CA for brawler, who is already most unwanted in raid and expect brawler grouping with 1 bard and 1 enchanter. If we are not grouping with bard and enchanter at same time, in most sustained fights, we won't have 500 power to cast DF. Also, we can't cast it before 0% of mob since we will lower our dps. What's the point to make this spell then?PS: Please stop making raid encounter with power drain. You are pushing people to invite 4 bards and 4 enchanters to raid so that every group can have enough power regen. In this case, 4 classes are going to sit out of raids so that Raid leader can invite extra bards and enchanters. Which 4 classes are going to sit out?

Timaarit

09-04-2007, 03:23 AM

tt66

09-04-2007, 03:57 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Also, any brawler that considers avoidance to be an issue for them on raids is either fooling themselves or in a guild that needs to expand their roster. There are 2 mobs in the raiding game that should ever hit a brawler (that is from every tier combined), and any brawler that has trouble staying up to one of them has issues bigger than this thread could ever solve.</blockquote>Well, this quite handily further qualifies your position. You contend that a brawler has no business being any kind of off-tank, and so their only contribution to a raid consists of utility/buffs and dps - is that a fair assumption?In which case, given the disparity in dps between brawlers and.. say.. a scout class, does it not make sense that we are upset that a great opportunity for dps was offered to us for a day and then taken away again?On the toughest mob in the game, a best case scenario that most brawlers will never see, the 1% version of DevFist was doing something in the region of 300dps. (Minus whatever you lost during the 10 second stifle). In any raiding force that is equipped well enough to handle Contested Mayong, the difference between scout DPS and brawler DPS will be vastly more than 300. If your opinion is that DPS is the only thing we contribute in a raid, then why would we not be in favor of something that would marginally close the gap and finally let us be out-dpsing bezerkers again?(Surely you must believe that we should out-dps bezerkers, given that they are capable of tanking in a raid and we, as you point out, are not?)And your bruiser raiding buddy is okay with this?

Noaani

09-04-2007, 04:11 AM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually you are not. You don't hve a clue of how to play a raiding monk.I have already posted in a PERFECT condition that monk will lose 3CAs to 7 CAs depending on your actual haste in raid.In realty, there is always lag from server, network, computer, etc, and people will lose more CAs then what I have posted. That's why DF with 10 sec stifle is totally crap and unacceptable for monk. It didn't make any sense to design a CA which lower player's dps.</blockquote>Yes, if you cast DF in the state it is on test mid way through a fight you WILL lose DPS, no one in their right mind would argue that. No one in their right mind would even bother to think about casting a 3k attack that stifles the caster for 10 seconds mid fight, except you seem to be hooked up on that for some reason.Get over it, you will not be casting DF mid fight, you will be casting it at the end of a fight, where you will not lose any DPS from missed CAs. You have posted a pile of drivel about how much DPS a monk would miss out on if DF were cast mid fight (any monk casting DF mid fight does not have the intellectual capacity to make their own way to the zone in point of a raid, so the point is null). You have yet to consider, or to calculate how much damage you will lose/gain if DF were cast in the last 2% of a fight.Until you are capable of working this out, I have nothing left to say to you.

Sapphirius

09-04-2007, 04:22 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>3 accounts, 9 level 70 adventurers, 12 adventurers ranging from 32 - 65. 3 of these characters are brawlers. I am providing my feedback, just as you are. I do not raid on a brawler, however, so any raiding comparisons I make are based on my main raiding character, a wizard. I have as much right to post my thoughts on this change as you do. It affects 3 of my characters, how many of your characters does it affect again?</blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>I should clarify. My raiding main is a wizard, as I have said. If my guild requires it, I am also able to raid on an inquisitor. However, when we do alt raids, or anything not from EoF, I raid on whatever class they need. I never raid current content on a brawler, but that is not to say I never raid on a brawler.</blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>We have a bruiser, he likes this change. Of course I asked him before I posted anything in this thread.</blockquote>Bruisers and Monks have diffrent needs. They are also less broken of the Brawlers as seen by all of the Monk to Bruiser betrayals in top raiding guilds.</blockquote>I know, she used to be a monk.Edit: I don't know anyone that has a main raiding character that is a monk, so was unable to ask one, although I am well aware of the differences between the classes.</blockquote>Let me see if I can make sense of all this information. You have 3 brawlers. You don't raid on them. Inspite of not raiding on them, you manage to raid non-current content, which means that you do raid on them but you just don't raid current content... Only, you don't raid on them.Then, you asked a bruiser for advice on DF before posting in a thread to tell a bunch of actual raiding monks that they were all wrong. Oh, but the bruiser used to be a monk, so it's all good except that you don't know any people who currently raid on monks to ask them about the changes. Oh, and you're well aware of the differences between monks and bruisers.Yeah, ummmm... Good luck with that..Here's the take from one of many raiding monks out there. I raid on both a monk and a warden. My other 70s do not raid. Speaking as a raiding monk, the DF changes are less than ideal for raiding (polite way of saying the changes suck). Had DF not had the 10 second stifle, it would be more feasible for monks to use during a raid, but for a 3 minute recast for a spell that only does 3K damage and costs a whopping 500 power (which is a lot of power for a brawler), it's just not worth using.I have better abilities and combinations that I can do than DF, especially considering the ability only raises my ZW DPS by about 16 under the most ideal of circumstances. That means if I get it off at exactly the right time to do the most amount of damage without losing DPS to the stifle. That means if I have enough power to use it. That means if no other brawler on my raid has used it. (There's usually a bruiser on my raids as well.) That most importantly means if the ability is not resisted. Remember it has a 34% resist on it.I'd rather get back to talking about monk buff wish lists with Zabjade.

Timaarit

09-04-2007, 04:27 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Get over it, you will not be casting DF mid fight, you will be casting it at the end of a fight, where you will not lose any DPS from missed CAs. You have posted a pile of drivel about how much DPS a monk would miss out on if DF were cast mid fight (any monk casting DF mid fight does not have the intellectual capacity to make their own way to the zone in point of a raid, so the point is null). You have yet to consider, or to calculate how much damage you will lose/gain if DF were cast in the last 2% of a fight.Until you are capable of working this out, I have nothing left to say to you.</blockquote>Sigh, you still dont seem to get it. If you wait till the end of the fight to cast that crappy skill, you will not gain any significant DPS from it. Now consider it that you have DF up in the beginning of some fight. The fight lasts for 5 mins. Do you really think that a 3k attack would make any noticeable difference on the monks DPS?And then when you used it, you notice that the fight lasted for 5 more seconds. oops. Or that you just missed the cast before the mob died. And dont even think of saying that it is all about timing. Unless of course you are able to time it perfectly 100% of the time. And you would be lying if you ever said that.

Noaani

09-04-2007, 04:43 AM

Self quoting ftw! (in red for those that need to know)<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, this quite handily further qualifies your position. You contend that a brawler has no business being any kind of off-tank, and so their only contribution to a raid consists of utility/buffs and dps - is that a fair assumption? </blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>I had a post typed out (I think I had to leave before I posted it, and didn't get round to finishing it, but I may have posted it, don't remember), that I totally agree that this CA could use 1 of 2 changes: Either increase the damage against epics by 1000 (no more than that), or reduce the power cost (this may make it too useful for solo/grouping). I personally think either of these changes would be fine, but in its current state on test, it is an improvment over what it is on live. </blockquote><cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote>In which case, given the disparity in dps between brawlers and.. say.. a scout class, does it not make sense that we are upset that a great opportunity for dps was offered to us for a day and then taken away again?</blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite> <blockquote>There are other changes that brawlers could use, as there are for every class. You guys saw how this went on test at first and got all excited thinking this was the fix you have been waiting for since LU#13 (before that actually). Well, this is a help, but not an all out fix for brawlers. As I am sure you will agree, an overall fix to monks and bruisers should not come from a CA that is common to both of you, as you both have different strengths and weaknesses. Also, I doubt any of you would think that an overall fix for your class should rest solely on a non upgradeable level 35 spell that is a common crafted alchemist item. </blockquote><blockquote>On the toughest mob in the game, a best case scenario that most brawlers will never see, the 1% version of DevFist was doing something in the region of 300dps. (Minus whatever you lost during the 10 second stifle). In any raiding force that is equipped well enough to handle Contested Mayong, the difference between scout DPS and brawler DPS will be vastly more than 300. If your opinion is that DPS is the only thing we contribute in a raid, then why would we not be in favor of something that would marginally close the gap and finally let us be out-dpsing bezerkers again?</blockquote>My hope is that, as a class and a community, brawlers are aware that resting the effectiveness of an entier class on a single skill is bound to end badly. If one CA makes the difference of going from one of the last classes to be taken on raids (if not the last) to one that is guarenteed a spot, then that one CA is overpowered. No other class in the game has that.In fact, of all the high powered spells and CAs people talk about that they are trying to compair this to (Ica Nova and Decapitation), none of them are even the top damage dealers of their given class.Brawlers (monks in particular) need more than a one stop fix. The way it first appeared on test WAS over powered. The way it is on test now could use some tweaks, but is considerably closer to something that a monk should have.<blockquote>(Surely you must believe that we should out-dps bezerkers, given that they are capable of tanking in a raid and we, as you point out, are not?)</blockquote>Yeah, as i said, your class needs work, more than any other class in the game. DF is NOT the fix you are after. <blockquote>And your bruiser raiding buddy is okay with this?</blockquote>Yeah, because she agrees that making a single CA that is common to both bruisers and monks, and expecting it to fix each of these classes respective issues, will not work. She thinks that DF will become a CA used at the end of most fights, similar to Verdict (btw, I remember the Inquisitor community [Removed for Content] about how bad it was when KoS beta NDA was lifted... go figure).

Timaarit

09-04-2007, 05:06 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>My hope is that, as a class and a community, brawlers are aware that resting the effectiveness of an entier class on a single skill is bound to end badly. If one CA makes the difference of going from one of the last classes to be taken on raids (if not the last) to one that is guarenteed a spot, then that one CA is overpowered. No other class in the game has that.</blockquote>Sigh, now resorting to strawmans huh?No, DF would not be a groundbreaking skill ecen if it was at 1% for epics. The issue here is SOE devs first giving brawlers hope that one broken skill would be fixed and then just simply nerfing it to total oblivion due to some whiners seeing high hit from a brawler (OMG!!!11one).So it is about the devs attitude towards paying customers. They just seem to not care.1% damage on epics for brawlers would not give brawlers more raiding spots. Heck, very few raids pick an inquisitor for their 2%.Now granted, if DF was 1% for epics, it would need longer recast timer. But with 3000 average damage, the stifle simply needs to go. It is amazing how difficult it is for some people to grasp this simple fact. My zerker can do almost 3k damage per hit with a 30s reuser timer AE when I get it to crit. And that goes for epics too. And brawlers get a 3k average hit for one target with a 10s stifle and no dev seems to think that is unbalanced.Just like you, no dev raid (I doubt they even play) a brawler. But they still seem to have some twisted idea that brawlers are too good to be improved to same level as the rest of the fighters or DPS classes with equal utility, take your pick. Totally incompetent.

Noaani

09-04-2007, 05:59 AM

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sigh, you still dont seem to get it. If you wait till the end of the fight to cast that crappy skill, you will not gain any significant DPS from it. Now consider it that you have DF up in the beginning of some fight. The fight lasts for 5 mins. Do you really think that a 3k attack would make any noticeable difference on the monks DPS?And then when you used it, you notice that the fight lasted for 5 more seconds. oops. Or that you just missed the cast before the mob died. And dont even think of saying that it is all about timing. Unless of course you are able to time it perfectly 100% of the time. And you would be lying if you ever said that.</blockquote>I can see exactly where your coming from here.You do not want SoE to add a CA to brawlers that may actually require a mediocum of skill to use to its fullest.In your situation, you should have cast DF at the end of the fight previous to the one you expect to take 5 minutes. If it was not up at the end of that fight, that is because the player behind the monk did not think long enough ahead to be sure it was up when it was needed most.As for the timing, it does not need to be perfect. It only needs to be good enough.If you find that, post GU#38, DF will lower your DPS if you use it, then simply do not use it. You will have lost nothing from what you have now, except for maybe a spot on a raid that went to a monk that has learnt to use it, and thus has an extra 3 - 4k damage per 5 minutes in zone than you.

Zarvax

09-04-2007, 06:02 AM

Noaani... First of all, your timing is messed... as a monk, I get off 1 CA per second, in between 1 Auto-attack (my auto-attack is hasted down to 1.1 seconds on both weapons, so i only need to wait 0.1 seconds between each CA to maximize damage)... not 1.8 seconds or 2 seconds. My CAs, on average, do about 1k damage... if I go 10 seconds without casting CAs, it is reasonable to think that I would loose 10k damage... not worth casting mid fight... as you have said. Agreed. As for the last couple % of a fight, 3k damage would have to be done within the last 3 seconds of a fight for it to be at all worthwhile... otherwise I can get more than 3k damage from casting my 3 highest damage CAs. Even assuming said CAs are down for the end of the fight, my lowest damage CAs still hit for at least 800 with crits up to 1k on debuffed mobs... so basically this skill would be an easy button for the last 3 seconds of combat, if you could get it off... the only way it would significantly increase my DPS would be to cast it within the last second of combat in which case it does 3x more damage than anything else I could cast in that second... but the chances of getting a skill off within the last second of combat are negligable at best. For your comments on the worthlessness of the other bloodline skills... i also play a swashbuckler, their bloodline skill (Ruthless Cunning) increases their damage per second by 42 for 1 minute... thats ~40%(more or less depending on group buffs and personal gear) extra damage on every auto-attack for 1 minute... my swashbuckler uses the dagger of purity hasted down to a 2 second delay... it double attacks for 1-2k damage per hit, thats 2-4k damage every 2 seconds... the bloodline skill increases each hit of that by 40% which would make it 1.4-2.8k damage a hit, or 2.8k-5.6k with double attacks. for the one minute that this skill is up, it has given me 24-48k extra damage... or 400-800 extra DPS. This is reusable every 5 minutes, just like devastation fist was origionaly, and it does the same amount of damage whether I use it in the middle of a long fight or not. There are other realy good Bloodline spells as well, such as enchanter Mana Cloak, or Predator Honed Reflexes, even druid Spirit of the Bat is worth more than what devastation fist will be. Just cause the sorcerer one is junk, doesn't mean the rest of them are.As for whatever comment you said about monks tanking, or not worying about avoidance, I am proud to say I have tanked or offtanked almost every encounter this game has to offer, other than a few of the very high end encounters (Avatars, Wuoshi, and Mayong[s]), and can tell you now that degrading a monk who focuses on avoidance on the forums doesn't help our cause... but thats a different disscusion.Also, my guild has taken me on every raid we've done... we are far from slow, and saying that because a monk is taken on a raid it is going to go slower is nothing but a shot at said guilds... You just need to know what group to put the monk in and they can parse just under most scouts... I personally average about 1.8-2k, and our raid as a whole usually parses 30-40k... and monks need to know the encounters just as much as anyone else... if not more for some encounters, a guild who actually utilizes a monk will find great uses for a class that can survive solo for 12+ seconds in any situation...Please, stop comparing us to wizards, we are not casters, the mechanics aren't the same, monks in particular, who have the haste to get their weapons 1.1 on the high end (2.5)weapons, and get one hit per CA with spam (well, a 0.1 second wait between CAs), are not getting any benefiet from this skill, as we would be loosing a good 9-10k damage if we cast it and got the full stifle... or even if we used it at the end of the fight we wouldn't gain any benefiet unless we could predict the death within 3 seconds... which is pretty impossible with the lag you normally get on any raid worth parsing.

Noaani

09-04-2007, 06:02 AM

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sigh, now resorting to strawmans huh?</blockquote>Sigh, now resorting to trying to sound like Kendricke huh?BTW, its strawmen, not strawmans.The rest of your post warrents no comment past what I have already posted in this thread.

Noaani

09-04-2007, 07:01 AM

<cite>Hamoto@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite> <blockquote>the chances of getting a skill off within the last second of combat are negligable at best. </blockquote>I disagree. With a small amount of practise you will find you are able to land it within the last 2 - 3 seconds of combat without any issue. This would mean that at most you miss out on a single CA. <blockquote>For your comments on the worthlessness of the other bloodline skills... i also play a swashbuckler, their bloodline skill (Ruthless Cunning) increases their damage per second by 42 for 1 minute... thats ~40%(more or less depending on group buffs and personal gear) extra damage on every auto-attack for 1 minute... my swashbuckler uses the dagger of purity hasted down to a 2 second delay... it double attacks for 1-2k damage per hit, thats 2-4k damage every 2 seconds... the bloodline skill increases each hit of that by 40% which would make it 1.4-2.8k damage a hit, or 2.8k-5.6k with double attacks. for the one minute that this skill is up, it has given me 24-48k extra damage... or 400-800 extra DPS. This is reusable every 5 minutes, just like devastation fist was origionaly, and it does the same amount of damage whether I use it in the middle of a long fight or not. There are other realy good Bloodline spells as well, such as enchanter Mana Cloak, or Predator Honed Reflexes, even druid Spirit of the Bat is worth more than what devastation fist will be. Just cause the sorcerer one is junk, doesn't mean the rest of them are.</blockquote>Ruthless Cunning suffers from the same issues that Honed Reflexes does, namely, outside of raids, it is mostly wasted. While they are both useful on raids (very useful), outside of raids fights go so fast that a large portion of the duration of these buffs is spent out of combat.The Summoner, Sorcerer, Bard, Cleric and Crusader bloodlines spells are all far to weak at level 70 to contemplate using. The warrior one is useful in dire situations (extremely rare situations as well). Spirit of the Bat is laughable at best. Mana Cloak and Umbral Trap are useful on raids, but pointless anywhere else. DF now has a use on raids, while being easily the most useful of the bloodlines spells outside of raids.<blockquote>As for whatever comment you said about monks tanking, or not worying about avoidance, I am proud to say I have tanked or offtanked almost every encounter this game has to offer, other than a few of the very high end encounters (Avatars, Wuoshi, and Mayong[s]), and can tell you now that degrading a monk who focuses on avoidance on the forums doesn't help our cause... but thats a different disscusion.</blockquote>I would assume you are on put on tanking duty only if there is not a spare warrior or crusader (or rouge), as with all but 2 fights in the game, an equally geared, equally skilled player behind any of those classes will do better at tanking than a monk (or, you could be saying you are far better geared than the other tanks in your guild, or you could be saying the other tanks in your guild all suck at the game, but I am sure you will agree that brawlers are not up to where plate tanks are in the ability to tank epics).<blockquote>Also, my guild has taken me on every raid we've done... we are far from slow, and saying that because a monk is taken on a raid it is going to go slower is nothing but a shot at said guilds... You just need to know what group to put the monk in and they can parse just under most scouts... I personally average about 1.8-2k, and our raid as a whole usually parses 30-40k... and monks need to know the encounters just as much as anyone else... if not more for some encounters, a guild who actually utilizes a monk will find great uses for a class that can survive solo for 12+ seconds in any situation... Please, stop comparing us to wizards, we are not casters, the mechanics aren't the same, monks in particular, who have the haste to get their weapons 1.1 on the high end (2.5)weapons, and get one hit per CA with spam (well, a 0.1 second wait between CAs), are not getting any benefiet from this skill, as we would be loosing a good 9-10k damage if we cast it and got the full stifle... or even if we used it at the end of the fight we wouldn't gain any benefiet unless we could predict the death within 3 seconds... which is pretty impossible with the lag you normally get on any raid worth parsing.</blockquote>The mechanics are exactly the same, how a player uses those mechanics to play each class to its fullest changes slightly though.

tt66

09-04-2007, 07:27 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote>In which case, given the disparity in dps between brawlers and.. say.. a scout class, does it not make sense that we are upset that a great opportunity for dps was offered to us for a day and then taken away again?</blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite> <blockquote>There are other changes that brawlers could use, as there are for every class. You guys saw how this went on test at first and got all excited thinking this was the fix you have been waiting for since LU#13 (before that actually). Well, this is a help, but not an all out fix for brawlers. As I am sure you will agree, an overall fix to monks and bruisers should not come from a CA that is common to both of you, as you both have different strengths and weaknesses. Also, I doubt any of you would think that an overall fix for your class should rest solely on a non upgradeable level 35 spell that is a common crafted alchemist item. </blockquote>My hope is that, as a class and a community, brawlers are aware that resting the effectiveness of an entier class on a single skill is bound to end badly. If one CA makes the difference of going from one of the last classes to be taken on raids (if not the last) to one that is guarenteed a spot, then that one CA is overpowered. No other class in the game has that.In fact, of all the high powered spells and CAs people talk about that they are trying to compair this to (Ica Nova and Decapitation), none of them are even the top damage dealers of their given class.Brawlers (monks in particular) need more than a one stop fix. The way it first appeared on test WAS over powered. The way it is on test now could use some tweaks, but is considerably closer to something that a monk should have.</blockquote>Well I guess I can't fault your belief that the original version was overpowered, given that you've said you believe verdict to be overpowered too. Might not agree with it, but at least you're consistent <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />For what it's worth, I do agree with pretty much everything you've written here, just not with the conclusion. You're absolutely right that a single powerful ability is a pretty weak way to guarantee a raid spot. And that a total redesign of the brawler raiding role is preferable to a one-stop fix. And that it's poor game design for a class to only be raid viable because of a lvl 35 spell.However, I also believe that the brawler class just isn't going to be fixed any time soon. I believe that the Devs are laboring under misconceptions about the brawler class dating back to the start of KOS. For example, at Fanfaire they specifically stated that they consider us powerful tanks who are unlikely to get an increase in either avoidance or damage. <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=376799" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">A thread discussing this, and the predictable brawler reaction, is here.</a>At this moment in time, I do not see any indication that we are likely to undergo the redesign we need. We want our raiding to be fixed, DevFist offered that opportunity. It wasn't the fix we would like, it might not be an elegant fix, or even a particularly sturdy one. But it was a fix.I'm not going to kid myself, fixing brawlers raiding ability is a very low priority for the Devs right now. They have expansions to get ready, servers to debug, Legends of Norrath to force upon us <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ... it is hardly economically viable for them to spend much time worrying about brawlers. Your logic is correct, but it seems predicated upon a perfect scenario that is simply exceptionally unlikely to happen. With respect (without sarcasm - I apologise for suggesting you might be a troll earlier), I am sick and tired of feeling that my guild invites me along on raids out of pity. Anything I can bring to a raid, a similarly geared dps class can out-do. I will accept any fix that will change that state of affairs.3.5k with a 10 second stifle is woeful. Even on the <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/bruisers/10812-devastation-fist-2-0-a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">forums that the devs listen to</a>, the only examples Aeralik could think of as to when to us it was as a "finishing move", or if you're going to be out of range for the next 10 seconds anyway. But to suggest that not using DevFist means that you'll lose a raid spot to a monk that does is disingenuous. You're far more likely to lose a raid spot to a Swashbuckler who can do 50% more dps than you can...heh. "DevFist". yup, just realised what my subconcious has been telling me. Yep, by offering us the 1% damage for a single day and then replacing it with 3.5k they certainly did....

Timaarit

09-04-2007, 07:29 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The rest of your post warrents no comment past what I have already posted in this thread.</blockquote>And which have been proven wrong every time you have. So all you can do is make up things and beat those since you have no actual facts to comment with.I suggest you stop posting like you actually knew what you are talking about. With 0 raiding brawlers of your own and same amount of raiding monks you know, it is not like you really even knew.DF chance will in no way improve a raiding monk.

Couching

09-04-2007, 09:35 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually you are not. You don't hve a clue of how to play a raiding monk.I have already posted in a PERFECT condition that monk will lose 3CAs to 7 CAs depending on your actual haste in raid.In realty, there is always lag from server, network, computer, etc, and people will lose more CAs then what I have posted. That's why DF with 10 sec stifle is totally crap and unacceptable for monk. It didn't make any sense to design a CA which lower player's dps.</blockquote>Yes, if you cast DF in the state it is on test mid way through a fight you WILL lose DPS, no one in their right mind would argue that. No one in their right mind would even bother to think about casting a 3k attack that stifles the caster for 10 seconds mid fight, except you seem to be hooked up on that for some reason.Get over it, you will not be casting DF mid fight, you will be casting it at the end of a fight, where you will not lose any DPS from missed CAs. You have posted a pile of drivel about how much DPS a monk would miss out on if DF were cast mid fight (any monk casting DF mid fight does not have the intellectual capacity to make their own way to the zone in point of a raid, so the point is null). You have yet to consider, or to calculate how much damage you will lose/gain if DF were cast in the last 2% of a fight.Until you are capable of working this out, I have nothing left to say to you.</blockquote>Then you still didn't have a clue of brawlers. Also, you have no idea of high end raidings.Just as I said, most brawlers have only 3-4k power and casters have 7-9k power. Also, casters have way more FT gears and power proc gears than brawlers. If DF is supposed to cast at 0% of mob, most brawlers CAN'T cast it because we didn't have enough power to cast it in high end encounters unless we have bard and enchanter in the group.Have you ever fight avatars, contested mayong, or named in EH such as Prince Thirneg, Galiel Spirithoof, The farstride unicorn, the segmented rumbler, treah, etc? It's impossible for most brawlers (actually i think it's all) to have 500 power left to cast DF at 0% of mob unless he is grouped with both bard and enchanter.How IRONIC it is that Devs are working to make people to invite more fighters to raids. But in the latest update, they gave brawler a CA that didn't work unless you are grouped with a bard and an enchanter. If we need more bards and enchanters in raids, which classes are going to sit out?Noaani, stop your stupid idea that brawler has to cast DF at 2% on mob since in most high end raids, brawler is not going to have 500 power left in the end of the fights. Unless you can guarantee most brawlers are going to group with a bard and an enchanter. Otherwise, your idea of casting DF at 2% is just a joke. When you didn't have 500 power, how can you cast it?

Zarvax

09-04-2007, 03:44 PM

Noaani, please post your game name and guild affiliations... cause it is seaming more and more likely you have not even killed most of the high end raid encounters... as Couching said, most brawlers cannot sustainfull power throughout a fight, i am usually out within the first ~70% or so of a mob's life... this is with using hearts, shards, manastone, the vessel of fyr'un, and the book of power if I die. Other than those items there... I realy can't GET more gear to help me with power... there is like... one power proccing cloak that would help, but every other melee class wants it... and for a tanking brawler (I, sir, am put into tanking positions because my guild knows what monks are, how to buff them, and our healers know how to heal me, not because we don't have an extra warrior or crusader... and definately not rogue... around) there are not only better cloaks, but I do not get first priority (not a DKP guild) on the melee DPS items... and as a tanking brawler I cannot realy afford to switch out any other piece of gear to gain power or power procs.Also, if you think it is easy to predict the last couple seconds of combat, I believe you have never killed a contested mob, except maybe pumpkinhead, in this tier... anything with a significant amount of hp will take a good half of a second to a full second per 1% of hp... depending on the situation, sometimes you still need people on adds at that time during the fight, or people are jousted out as to not get hit by an AoE etc. etc. and they cannot continue to hit the mob at a consistent rate... if I went by %ages as you are saying, I would want to hit it at 3% so that when verdict hits at 2% the fight will be over and I will not loose damage... but many things could happen in that 1% on most high end encounters that make it take more than 1 seconds, thus making dev fist useless...I believe that Dev fist will be somewhat useful, maybe, on junk mobs... because junk mobs don't usually have any tricks, and don't usually take much longer than a second for the last 3-4%, so it would be easy enough to time... but who gives a [I cannot control my vocabulary] about junk mobs... its not the junk mobs that count, killing them faster just gets you to the named faster... its the named that count, they drop the loot, they are the ones you should by trying to kill the fastest and using your best skills on...As for ruthless cunning not being useful outside of raids... thats untrue, you still get the full use out of it, as it is a buff... and you just need to chain pull while its up, if you are in combat for the full minute, regardless if you are fighting the same mob or not, it is going to increase your DPS by the same amount. So useful in raids, yes, useful in heroic groups, yes if you have a group that can chain pull.. which is usually a yes, useful while solo, definately... as those fights need to finish as fast as possible when soloing semi-difficult content... my swash can solo almost any heroic mob in the game... and this special definately helps to do that.So please, post your name and guild affiliations so I can see if your opinion realy even counts...

EQ2Luv

09-04-2007, 05:25 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well considering 90% of a melee classes CA's have a recast time less than the average fight, that would mean for the most part, recast timers are a factor in DPS for these classes.Geez.. if you have as many classes played as this, then I'd think you'd realize this by now. Not all classes are Wizards... heck, if Wizards only cast most of their spells once per fight, then they are pretty much one of the unique classes in the game for it... most others recast a LOT of their spells/CA's.</blockquote>In the specific instance of a brawler, this can become a lot simpler, so I guess I should make it simpler so people understand.In the case of single target mobs, brawlers (from memory) have no worthwhile CAs with a longer cast time than 0.5 seconds, thus, the DPS potential of each CA is simply (damage*2). Due to being a melee class, they will not always be casting a CA however, as to maximise their auto attack DPS (I am sure I am not telling anyone here anything new with this). So, in order for a brawler to be as effective as possable in a raid (this is for DPS, not for debuffs), all they need to do is prioritise their CAs in to which ones do the most damage.</blockquote>Noaani, please stop posting misinformation. My previous post apparently was ignored by you. I will make it simpler now, and in way that should most clearly demonstrate why you should not prioritize by damage alone. You can try to make up special rules for why your strategy does not maximize dps, but the reality is that your rule is wrong.First, don't forget there is a .5 second recovery time, so really the effective cast time of a CA is 1 second. Suppose my autoattacks fit nicely with my cast speed and the delay of my weapons is also 1 second. Thus no autoattacks are lost so we can ignore the autoattack portion. Suppose I have one CA (A) that does 100 damage with a recast of 1.5 seconds. Suppose I have one CA (B) with 1 damage recast 1.5 seconds. Suppose I have 5 other CA (C,D,E,F,G) with 101 damage and a recast of 10 seconds. Suppose all my CA are initially up. Suppose we are chain pulling mobs for X minutes. (Or fighting a named mob for X minutes.)You say to cast highest damage first. So cast 5 CA for 101 damage. There should now be 5 seconds remaining until you can spam those 5 CA again. So cast A,B,A,B,A for 302 damage. Rinse and repeat. Total damage dealt is 807 damage every 10 seconds.I say cast A,C,A,D,A,E,A,F,A,G every 10 seconds. Notice how A is woven between the other spells. Every 10 seconds C will come up at the 1 second marker (11 s, 21s, 31s). Thus we can still cast C-F every 10 seconds, simply with an initial delay between them from weaving A between them. With this scheme damage dealt every 10 seconds is 100*5 + 101*5 = 1005. So then after X minutes of fighting:Noaani Plan: 807*6*X.Monk Plan: 1005*6*X.Damage per second:Noaani Plan: 80.7Monk Plan: 100.5Do I need to make it any simpler?

Zabjade

09-04-2007, 07:28 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite> <blockquote>[Snip]I'd rather get back to talking about monk buff wish lists with Zabjade.</blockquote>Yes, lets talk about Important and Useful things <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Ok it is more then buffs• Uncontested Avoidance: Avoidance tanks should have more Uncontested Avoidance then mitigation tanks, we are not asking for a Nerf of other tanks, just a boost for Brawlers. After all we need somethin because we just do not have the Mitigation of plate-wearers.• More Resists and other stats on Gi's: I rarely wear my Gi's as they have worse stats then say my Premonition Mantle. For me most Gi's are destined for the appearance slots.• Headbands and other Headgear: Most leather Headgear seems aimed for the Druid Classes most likely 80% would be a conservative guess. I would like to see the return of the old Monk headband questlines, since I doubt it will lead to a Robe of the Lost Circle (Not so lost now days anyway lol) perhaps we can have more resists and possibly other useful stats on the upper tiers of said headbands.• Strength Line AA's: Get rid of the weapon requirement (or in this case No-weapons requirements) for this line, nerf the ammount of DPS if you absolutely have to, although it would not be game breaking to leave it as is.•DPS Buff for Monks: We are drowning in Haste and have the shortest cast CA's/Spells in the game, many of use would gladly give up a portion of our Haste for some decent DPS.• Get Rid of the Stun on our Mitigation Buffs: They render them useless because while you are stunned you get hit even MORE! I mean that buff never makes it to my hotbar nor do I bother finding and adept or Master version. As for the Mitigation Buff that Roots, I have no problem with it, PROVIDING, that it stops even Epic Knockbacks!This one is mostly fluff, Ditch the spiky salad bowls from the game entirely and bring back the Ulaks! I fondly remember managing to loot a pair of rusty Ulaks from lowbie undead and Orcs and finally being able to purchase a pair of Polished Steel Ulaks, and even once I was able to get to the bazaar a sheet Metal Ulak (I could never afford the nice nice ones however, but thme's the breaks)

Sapphirius

09-04-2007, 08:08 PM

WOO HOO! This is much more constructive and a better use of time than debating with someone who can't even make up her mind if she does or does not raid on her three brawlers.<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite> <blockquote>[Snip]I'd rather get back to talking about monk buff wish lists with Zabjade.</blockquote>Yes, lets talk about Important and Useful things <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /> Ok it is more then buffs• Uncontested Avoidance: Avoidance tanks should have more Uncontested Avoidance then mitigation tanks, we are not asking for a Nerf of other tanks, just a boost for Brawlers. After all we need somethin because we just do not have the Mitigation of plate-wearers.Agreed wholeheartedly. It's not that I want to offtank or tank for raids, though I have and do sometimes tank for the open T6 raids that my guild will hold for "status runs." (We love Courts for earning status!) It wasn't intentional though. Honest. <whistles innocently> This would be especially helpful when tanking for non-raid content, such as Irolas the Whatever in Varsoon's, who will decrease you by 5 levels. Always a nice suprise the first time you enter and tank for a zone and find that yellow con vamp you're fighting turns orange in the middle of the fight.Sadly, I have not put as much effort into increasing my avoidance as I should have, preferring to focus more on strength, haste, dps modifiers, and damage procs. I know, Shame on me. Both my stamina and my agility have suffered in the name of increasing my damage on raids.• More Resists and other stats on Gi's: I rarely wear my Gi's as they have worse stats then say my Premonition Mantle. For me most Gi's are destined for the appearance slots.Amen to this. Most gis are pretty worthless when compared to other gear. For that matter, I'm not very happy with the EOF fabled monk set either. The effects are nice. The stats are meh. I do kind of like Wu's Fighting Shirt and will wear it over my Gnillaw's tunic when I'm not raiding cause it hurts my eyes to stare at bright green and purple all day. When the fluff slots come in, I'll be wearing my Adebt Blood Hide Gi, though I also like the Dark Disciple one too. <sighs> Maybe one day I'll actually get a new tunic worth wearing.• Headbands and other Headgear: Most leather Headgear seems aimed for the Druid Classes most likely 80% would be a conservative guess. I would like to see the return of the old Monk headband questlines, since I doubt it will lead to a Robe of the Lost Circle (Not so lost now days anyway lol) perhaps we can have more resists and possibly other useful stats on the upper tiers of said headbands.I actually don't like the headbands. On my girls, it would show a cloth headband tied around a leather skullcap, which is why I refuse to make the change to bruiser. I like my rice hats. <grins> I actually have three rice bowl hats that I don't wear at all because my other caps have better stats: Crescent (relic), Hoo'Loh's, and Rockpounder. The other hats I have look like leather skull caps. These hats are destined for my fluff armor slots where I'll swap them out to match whatever gi I'm wearing at the time. I know. I'm vain. I'm female. I'm allowed to be. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />It would be nice to have another quested hat line, not only for brawlers, but for all the classes. It'd also be nice if we could change brawler-specific hats to have our class appearance on them, such as Wu's Fighting Skullcap.• Strength Line AA's: Get rid of the weapon requirement (or in this case No-weapons requirements) for this line, nerf the ammount of DPS if you absolutely have to, although it would not be game breaking to leave it as is.Ya know, I originally thought they were removing this requirement when they announced this in the last AA changes. It actually made me look at that line a few times if for nothing else than the double attack on it. I didn't like that they were losing the riposte in favor of increased mitigation, but getting rid of the weapon requirement (or rather lack of), would still make the line a bit more beneficial. I will admit to being slightly disappointed when the str line did not change. I stayed with my sta/wis/int spec as a result.•DPS Buff for Monks: We are drowning in Haste and have the shortest cast CA's/Spells in the game, many of use would gladly give up a portion of our Haste for some decent DPS.I would gladly give up a bit of haste for a group buff. If I'm not mistaken, we're the only tank class not to have two group buffs? As Mimnousa suggested to me, a 7.5% double attack group buff would put us right about where we need to be without making us overpowered. I kind of agree with her on that.• Get Rid of the Stun on our Mitigation Buffs: They render them useless because while you are stunned you get hit even MORE! I mean that buff never makes it to my hotbar nor do I bother finding and adept or Master version. As for the Mitigation Buff that Roots, I have no problem with it, PROVIDING, that it stops even Epic Knockbacks!Yeah, the stun on our mountain stance is a pain, which is why I never use it. I will use our other mit buff. Unfortunately, that buff roots us in place, so if someone else in my groups pulls aggro and decides for whatever silly reason not to bring it to me, I then have to cancel my stance, run over there, and hit the mob to get aggro back. It's a waste because I can't immediately recast it once I cancel it.Sometimes, it's a pain that our aggro is generated by hitting things rather than letting them hit us. Other times, it's a blessing. Not to say that I want Storm Advance changed. I like it the way it is. I'm just saying it's a pain because a lot of highly aggroable classes don't always understand that monks tank differently from warriors and hold aggro differently as well.This one is mostly fluff, Ditch the spiky salad bowls from the game entirely and bring back the Ulaks! I fondly remember managing to loot a pair of rusty Ulaks from lowbie undead and Orcs and finally being able to purchase a pair of Polished Steel Ulaks, and even once I was able to get to the bazaar a sheet Metal Ulak (I could never afford the nice nice ones however, but thme's the breaks)Hehehehe. I remember getting my first fabled KOS weapon and being so happy when I got it until I saw what it looked like. Who seriously though of the flaming colander? Were they hungry when they designed that weapon? It looked like I wanted to strain a salad and then toast it.</blockquote>