Devestation Fist changes.

[Cusashorn]

<p>Has anyone on Test played around with this now that it can affect +, ++, +++, of all three solo, group, and raid encounters? That's what the patch message makes it sound like it can do.</p><p>If it was a straight kill on normal mobs who didn't have an up arrow, what does it do now?</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I hear about 25% Percent on Heroics.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Unfortunatly The Developers were hasty when they nerfed the Epic damage 1% in not a lot just Mistmore has a LOT of HP. They didn't even let it test out for more then a few hours. EQ flames <b><u><i>whiners</i></u></b> are what I hear is the cause of that.</span></p>

[mr23sgte]

Its not worth casting now

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Hereo@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its not worth casting now</blockquote>Well darn. So a combat art that's already useless about 90% of the time is still going to be useless 90% of the time? I think I would have preferred a buff for the level 35 K'Lorn spell... like the druid's Spirit of the Bat, which is <i>always</i> useful.

[mr23sgte]

Looks like 3703 Damage for me on Epics ...........they raised the resist to 34% ----Gee thx, since it won't be on my hotbar for Raids.

[Couching]

For lv 70 monk with around 600 str, it's about 2.1k-3.9k. It's about 2k-3.7k with 550 str. Since it's 3 minutes reuse, it's about extra 11-16dps ZW even if you use it right away when it's up.It's pretty sad how worse it is comparing to other classes. Horrible.Not to say, it costs 500 power and stifle yourself for 10 sec. What a junk. sigh.

[Sapphirius]

<p>Bleh.</p>

[Novusod]

With an average of 3.5k damage and 10 second stifle it just is not worth casting. It just plain lowers our dps so it would have zero use in raids.All this change did was make heroics 25% easier to solo without giving the brawler any additional utility on raids. This is the exact oposite of what the class needs atm. Being able to do 1% damage to an epic would actually make brawlers usefull. Now we can't have that now can we.

[Amphibia]

<cite>Hereo@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Looks like 3703 Damage for me on Epics ...........they raised the resist to 34% ----Gee thx, since it won't be on my hotbar for Raids.</blockquote>Haha, that is a joke. Not worth bothering with this skill then.

[Lizardling]

<p>not only the 10sec stun, resist rate, and cost. But because of the 10sec stun you have to also be very careful when you use it(not good to use when aoe that should be jousted is about to go off etc)</p><p> Its decent for solo mobs and group mobs, but for epics its just horrible. Please make it worthful against epics</p>

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>Lizardling wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>not only the 10sec stun, resist rate, and cost. But because of the 10sec stun you have to also be very careful when you use it(not good to use when aoe that should be jousted is about to go off etc)</p><p> Its decent for solo mobs and group mobs, but for epics its just horrible. Please make it worthful against epics</p></blockquote>It's a stifle, not a stun, so when an aoe is going off is probably the only okay time to use it. You'll be out of range to use your CA anyway.  On the other hand, you'll get more damage spending your 500 power on other combat arts so it's pretty much worthless except for inflating your ZW by overkilling trash. 

[Lizardling]

your right. Not sure how i made that mistake lol, so ya nvm. I use it a bit i just dont see why i was thinking it was a stun for a bit there, haha. One of the wierdest things thats happened to me.

[Siclone]

1 percent on epic mobs with a mob with 3 million hp is 30 k damage.....you brawlers truly think you should be doing that don't you? I hope the devs read this and will finally come to the conclusion that the brawler community no matter what they do will not stop complaining how how bad they are.  clearly its a strategy that is working. Fighter buffs now raid wide, expending the abilities of CA'sAt the least they just made a super overpowered solo class, even more so, and all you see here are threads on how SOE screws brawlers. 

[tt66]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>1 percent on epic mobs with a mob with 3 million hp is 30 k damage.....you brawlers truly think you should be doing that don't you? I hope the devs read this and will finally come to the conclusion that the brawler community no matter what they do will not stop complaining how how bad they are.  clearly its a strategy that is working. Fighter buffs now raid wide, expending the abilities of CA'sAt the least they just made a super overpowered solo class, even more so, and all you see here are threads on how SOE screws brawlers.  </blockquote>"Super overpowered solo class"? Well <b>that </b>certainly shows your bias.I take it then, that you don't think brawlers need additional help when it comes to raiding? That brawlers are actively sought out for raids, because of their dps and/or tanking abilities?EDIT : Ok, you play an Assassin. I can see how you might find your Decapitate is being threatened by our Dev Fist. (Although can't Assassins solo quite well too?) But look at it from our perspective. That 30k hit translates to a boost of around 166dps. That quite neatly bumps brawler DPS to the top of the fighter DPS tiers, but still below the scouts. (Whereas at the moment, I think it's fairly safe to say we lag behind bezerkers in terms of raid dps). This fix would have been a "silver bullet" that could really have fixed pretty much every problem that a raiding brawler has. Sure, we wouldn't be an MT or anything, but we would be <i>desirable</i> for raids. And that's really what we're all looking for. To have such a fix in place and then yanked away is rather upsetting.

[mr23sgte]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>1 percent on epic mobs with a mob with 3 million hp is 30 k damage.....you brawlers truly think you should be doing that don't you? I hope the devs read this and will finally come to the conclusion that the brawler community no matter what they do will not stop complaining how how bad they are.  clearly its a strategy that is working. Fighter buffs now raid wide, expending the abilities of CA'sAt the least they just made a super overpowered solo class, even more so, and all you see here are threads on how SOE screws brawlers.  </blockquote><p>They could of capped the Epic damage on 100% of the Brawlers health - that way even with Bolster you would never see it go over 15K or so.......................... this just made us even STRONGER at soloing! We don't need to be stronger at that as the last poster indicates.</p><p>I think one Raid buff isn't going to get Brawlers a raid spot buddy - if you play a raiding brawler (which I doubt from your lack of knowledge) you would understand we wouldn't mind having our solo ability nerfed a bit for better raid plausability.</p>

[Sapphirius]

No, obviously, he doesn't play a raiding brawler, and so his opinion doesn't really matter enough to respond. Does it? <smiles and shrugs> Just learn to ignore some people, hun. It's not worth it, especially when they say ignorant things.

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>1 percent on epic mobs with a mob with 3 million hp is 30 k damage.....you brawlers truly think you should be doing that don't you? I hope the devs read this and will finally come to the conclusion that the brawler community no matter what they do will not stop complaining how how bad they are.  clearly its a strategy that is working. Fighter buffs now raid wide, expending the abilities of CA'sAt the least they just made a super overpowered solo class, even more so, and all you see here are threads on how SOE screws brawlers.  </blockquote>The irksome thing is that they put it up there as 1%. They had been planning this for a while as it was mentioned at the fan faire.  They had to know what 1% of an epic mobs health was when they chose the value.  Then within 24 hours of putting it on test they decided to nerf it to a value thats worthless.  We're not saying we should do 30k damage, but adding a skill that stifles you for 10 seconds and takes more power than other combat arts that do 3k damage is worthless.  They admitted we need more desirability for raids.  They seem unwilling to make our avoidance be higher vs epic than plate tanks.  They gave us this -- then they nerfed it. We want to make it clear that this spell in its new for *is not useful* and hence will not qualify as something to give us desirability.  We're mad because the lead developers of the game seem to be the players at eq2flames.  They called nerf and so they nerfed it.  Which is fine since it was pretty overpowered, but, as expected, they nerfed it from overpowered to underpowered to an almost worthless state.

[PantherXX]

<p><cite></cite></p><p><cite></cite></p><p><cite></cite></p><p><b>Some "constructive" suggestions:</b></p><ul><li>25% on heroics is too much.  10% would be more reasonable.  We are not the "uber" solo class people think we are (most nukers/kiters can solo better), but this would be over the top.</li><li>Keep the damage at 1% on epics but make the immunity equal to the recast.  No stacking multiple brawlers on a single mob that way.  The damage here would amount to no more than inquisitors get with Verdict.</li><li>I would not be opposed to other limits that make the skill useable only once per fight (permenant immunity for example or under 10% only).</li><li>If you absolutely must make it direct damage on Epics, then either remove the stifle or up the damage.  As is, it takes too much power and would likely reduce DPS with the stifle.</li></ul><p><b>Some things to keep in mind for "haters" if kept at 1%:</b></p><ul><li>This skill will generate agro and cannot be used with impunity</li><li>It is % based, so to my knowledge it CANNOT crit.</li><li>Even hitting for 30k with a 3min recast, that ups our DPS by 166.  Even with Jester's up all the time, it would add 277 dps.</li></ul>

[PantherXX]

<cite>And to Siclone:</cite><blockquote>1 percent on epic mobs with a mob with 3 million hp is 30 k damage.....you brawlers truly think you should be doing that don't you? I hope the devs read this and will finally come to the conclusion that the brawler community no matter what they do will not stop complaining how how bad they are.  clearly its a strategy that is working. Fighter buffs now raid wide, expending the abilities of CA'sAt the least they just made a super overpowered solo class, even more so, and all you see here are threads on how SOE screws brawlers.  </blockquote>Well, my friend, we should certainly nerf all inquisitors then.  They are a healing class that does 2% damage to epics, so they hit for 60k (120k on Contested Mayong).  The only reason you are not complaining about them is that it doesn't show up on the parse.  At most (unless you have a raid with pathetic DPS), this skill could be used twice on a mob ... meaning brawlers could do exactly the same damage as a healer class.

[The_Cheeseman]

Am I the only one who sees the final result of this being a net positive change? I mean, we have what was essentially a fluff spell with no real utility anyways, that has been given the power to actually have an effect in group and raid situations. No matter how you look at it, this is not a nerf to the brawler class. Sure, it probably won't solve our raiding problems, but these issues are not going to be fixed with a single change. I think that minor adjustments like these are a great step in the right direction, and over time will lead to worthwhile results.

[PantherXX]

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Am I the only one who sees the final result of this being a net positive change? I mean, we have what was essentially a fluff spell with no real utility anyways, that has been given the power to actually have an effect in group and raid situations. No matter how you look at it, this is not a nerf to the brawler class. Sure, it probably won't solve our raiding problems, but these issues are not going to be fixed with a single change. I think that minor adjustments like these are a great step in the right direction, and over time will lead to worthwhile results.</blockquote>The problem is that as it now stands, using this skill will likely reduce your DPS in a raid.  Therefore, there is no reason to use this skill while raiding.  In effect, they have added a skill that improves our solo/grouping where they already thought we were too powerful and have made a null change in raiding, where they admit we need a boost.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>PantherXX wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><cite></cite></p><p><cite></cite></p><p><cite></cite></p><p><b>Some "constructive" suggestions:</b></p><ul><li>25% on heroics is too much.  10% would be more reasonable.  We are not the "uber" solo class people think we are (most nukers/kiters can solo better), but this would be over the top.</li><li>Keep the damage at 1% on epics but make the immunity equal to the recast.  No stacking multiple brawlers on a single mob that way.  The damage here would amount to no more than inquisitors get with Verdict.</li><li>I would not be opposed to other limits that make the skill useable only once per fight (permenant immunity for example or under 10% only).</li><li>If you absolutely must make it direct damage on Epics, then either remove the stifle or up the damage.  As is, it takes too much power and would likely reduce DPS with the stifle.</li></ul><p><b>Some things to keep in mind for "haters" if kept at 1%:</b></p><ul><li>This skill will generate agro and cannot be used with impunity</li><li>It is % based, so to my knowledge it CANNOT crit.</li><li>Even hitting for 30k with a 3min recast, that ups our DPS by 166.  Even with Jester's up all the time, it would add 277 dps.</li></ul></blockquote>I just found my new idol. Now, can we get a dev to come read this?

[Master2you]

Please Change Dev Fist Make it a longer recast on epics Make it so we can only use it twice on the same epic Make it the end of a combo of CAs hits, if one misses we cannot use it Make it 1% of the targets current Hitpoints Make it Increase our hate by 5 Positions Have it cast FD on caster for 10 seconds Make it .5% of Hitpoints Just please make it useful Its next to imposable for a brawler to get in raids as we dont Tank unless its a ^^^ and we dont DPS unless we have a group built around us with the best DPS gear, evin tough the best dps gear is Scout only and we dont heal and we are not Support . Dev fist is our chance to make us usefull in raids and more interesting to play Those are just options i could come up with in a few seconds and none of them are over powered

[Lannyjp]

Ok let me get this right. 3000 damage with a 10 second stifle = 300dps, Boy now finally my guild will need me to raid with such a big nuke : O   Ok who came up with this i wonder.. I average 1400-1700dps why would they give us a spell that would decrease my dps?  Maybe 4% was a bit high but come on... So frustrated that they cant give us something to make us more raid  friendly..

[miliskel]

pnather your suggestions are great and i mean thatr but ur signature saying "balance in all things" is totaly wrong as a brawler <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> back on topic tho, i think that 1% on epics with a cap of 30k damage would be fine , 25% on heroics too.

[PantherXX]

<cite>miliskel wrote:</cite><blockquote>pnather your suggestions are great and i mean thatr but ur signature saying "balance in all things" is totaly wrong as a brawler <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> back on topic tho, i think that 1% on epics with a cap of 30k damage would be fine , 25% on heroics too.</blockquote><p>Hehe ... balance is core to everything monkish (definitely not for hotheaded bruisers though <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).</p><p>That is not to say I feel balanced in this game.  Rather it is a goal I can one day hope to achieve.</p><p>As for "Balance in all things."  That is lifted staight out of Boulders Gate 2 ... the githyanki who joined your group was constantly saying it.</p>

[DwarvesR]

<cite>PantherXX wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><cite></cite></p><p><cite></cite></p><p><cite></cite></p><p><b>Some "constructive" suggestions:</b></p><ul><li>25% on heroics is too much.  10% would be more reasonable.  We are not the "uber" solo class people think we are (most nukers/kiters can solo better), but this would be over the top.  </li><li>Keep the damage at 1% on epics but make the immunity equal to the recast.  No stacking multiple brawlers on a single mob that way.  The damage here would amount to no more than inquisitors get with Verdict.</li></ul><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Inquisitors can "kill button" with Verdict at 50% on any down-arrow mob.  They can do it at 25% on any no or 1-up mob.  10% for a 2 or 3 arrow mob, and 2% on an epic.  45 second recast, no negative side effects.  And since it's a spell, if resisted, then 2 seconds later you try again, where if Dev Fist misses. . . . full recast time.  Seems to me that Verdict is *way* more powerful than Dev Fist.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Granted, it's a level 65 spell, vs level 35, but even so -- Brawlers seem shafted any which way you slice it.</span></p><ul><li>I would not be opposed to other limits that make the skill useable only once per fight (permenant immunity for example or under 10% only).</li></ul><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If it was made to act like Verdict, in that it could only be used to "killshot," I actually think that that would be pretty reasonable.  But, since the quizzies can already do this, it wouldn't make a brawler any more wanted on a raid than he already is, so we still have the same problem as before.</span></p><ul><li>If you absolutely must make it direct damage on Epics, then either remove the stifle or up the damage.  As is, it takes too much power and would likely reduce DPS with the stifle.</li></ul><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The negative side effect needs to be completely done away with, IMO.  It never made any sense to me.  As it currently is, I hit a solo mob with it and *boom* -- fight's over.  Why do I care if I'm stifled now?</span></p><p><b>Some things to keep in mind for "haters" if kept at 1%:</b></p><ul><li>This skill will generate agro and cannot be used with impunity</li><li>It is % based, so to my knowledge it CANNOT crit.</li><li>Even hitting for 30k with a 3min recast, that ups our DPS by 166.  Even with Jester's up all the time, it would add 277 dps.</li></ul></blockquote><p>I see manaburners hitting for 80K+.  I see Fusion hitting for 25K on 3 mobs (total 75K), I see lifeburn hitting for over 6K per second for its full duration. . . . and we're worried about brawlers potentially getting a 30K hit?</p><p>I just don't see the beef.  Give us something!  My monk is actually one of my earliest created toons and he'smy lowest one.  Heck, I caught up to him with a toon I created barely 2 months ago and haven't even really been trying to level fast -- and the biggest reason I don't really play the monk much except to solo is that I know there's really no point to it.  No one wants me to tank a group, if they want dps they can generally get more from a scout or caster so they certainly don't need me. . . .   And this is the general perception across the board.  Brawlers need not just a bone, but a ROLE.  Mediocre tank/mediocre dps/no utility isn't a role -- it's something players ignore.</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Most people aren't looking to have Devastation Fist be the "reason" we are asked to raids.What most people are trying to say is that if you are going to make Devastation Fist useable in raids, then make it have a POINT to being used in raids. Not this weaksauce it currently is.And the problem with "it's a lvl 35 spell" is bull because everyone will be getting their spells upgraded over and over... so at level 80 when everyone has their tier 8 version of the spell (they have to, there are AA's require most, if not all, of them), our "tier 8" version will just be that it scaled up to affect tier 8 mobs.Honestly, I don't see why we can't just have it kept at a percentage base like it's first change, and just add in the cap of the Brawler's max health x2.That would mean we're looking at probably from 15-20k on the normal raid buffed Brawler. With temp buffs and [Removed for Content] out in hp, maybe we could break 25k (12.5k hp x 2)... but a brawler getting buffs like that would need to be placed into a highly HP buffing group for his ONE damage ability that other DPS classes can out-do anyways.Yeah, so on average we'd see maybe 15-20k damage tops from this ability every 3 minutes. ONLY if the mob has that much hp too...Oh! And while we are changing things, make it so it has a more normal Hit Bonus. Like the 25-50% Easier that our other CA's get. Not this 12% Harder bull...

[Bramwe]

<cite>Lannyjp wrote:</cite><blockquote>I average 1400-1700dps </blockquote>Maybe this is why.  What do you spike at?  2500? Your DPS is at the top of the parse in a lot of guilds and you are a TANK class.  Making you a pure DPS class for raids is not the answer.  Then you get to be an "Overpowered" tank class for grouping/soloing and the best DPS class for raiding.  Giving a class the ability to do 30000 damage even with a 10 second stile is huge...too much for a raid because you all know you would use it during the last 1-2% of a mobs HP basically eliminating the stifle from causing any effect..

[tt66]

<cite>Bramwell@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lannyjp wrote:</cite><blockquote>I average 1400-1700dps </blockquote>Maybe this is why.  What do you spike at?  2500? Your DPS is at the top of the parse in a lot of guilds and you are a TANK class.  Making you a pure DPS class for raids is not the answer.  Then you get to be an "Overpowered" tank class for grouping/soloing and the best DPS class for raiding.  Giving a class the ability to do 30000 dps even with a 10 second stile is huge...too much for a raid because you all know you would use it during the last 1-2% of a mobs HP basically eliminating the stifle from causing any effect..</blockquote>If 2500 dps is the top of the parse, it won't be being done by the brawler.If the brawler is doing 2500 dps, it won't be at the top of the parse.Can we TANK a raid? If we can't TANK a raid, then we're not a TANK class, are we? If making us a pure DPS class for raids is not the answer, what else are we supposed to bring to the raid? In fact.. wait a second.. <b>best DPS class for raiding?</b> Are you mad?

[Sapphirius]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can we TANK a raid? If we can't TANK a raid, then we're not a TANK class, are we? If making us a pure DPS class for raids is not the answer, what else are we supposed to bring to the raid? </blockquote><p>Well, we <i>are</i> tanks, even if we can't tank for raids. I tank heroic content all the time, including Unrest, so perhaps the answer isn't increasing our raid DPS so much as it is increasing our <i>utility</i>?</p>

[tt66]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can we TANK a raid? If we can't TANK a raid, then we're not a TANK class, are we? If making us a pure DPS class for raids is not the answer, what else are we supposed to bring to the raid? </blockquote><p>Well, we <i>are</i> tanks, even if we can't tank for raids. I tank heroic content all the time, including Unrest, so perhaps the answer isn't increasing our raid DPS so much as it is increasing our <i>utility</i>?</p></blockquote>Well, I mean yeah, that would be the ideal. I don't think anyone is seriously pushing for scout level DPS (although a firm place at the top of the fighter dps table would be nice!), but we do need <i>something</i> to make us wanted on raids.(After all, even the absolute best-case scenario for the 1% dev fist adds around 300dps. No proper DPS class is going to be anywhere near within 300dps of a brawler.)One of the neatest suggestions I saw was making StoneDeaf/Tsunami a group-wide buff. Simple, useful and doesn't threaten any other classes niche. Not mind blowingly awesome, but cool enough to make a raid leader think "ooh, wouldn't it be nice if we could find a brawler to fill this raid out a bit..."

[Uumuuanu]

<p>NO NO NO and more NO.</p><p>Believe me, bruisers do NOT want to sacrifice DPS or tanking for utility.  Don't believe me, play a dirge.  How many of us have seen a dirge on follow simply for ~utility~  (ie power regen and buffs).  If anything bruisers outline a critical imbalance in tanking. Honestly WE are supposed to be the avoidance tanks, yet plate tanks can come within a few percent of our avoidance stats.  This is a mute point since epic mobs have a hit percentage OFF the scale of other mobs, thus our avoidance does us NO good.  </p><p>Ok, so we are supposed to have the most HP per STA, the most HP over all of all the tanks.  And 4 brawlers do, by a few hundred HP.  Actually the difference between the monk listed in 4th and the guardian listed in 5th is a whopping 26hp and the spread between brawlers and other tanks is only 453 hp, less then one hit by 99% of all epics in T7 raids. So lets see,  we can't tank because our avoidance doesn't work,  we can't tank because we simply dont have the mitigation to make up the bonus of a few hundred HP, what can we tank with?</p><p>Ok, now DPS.  Honestly I would guess the ONLY scouts that dont beat us are bards.  I have seen HEALERS out parse bruisers.  We know that most mages out parse bruisers, berserkers can do it, I even saw a paladin do it.</p><p>So lets see, we can't tank raids, we aren't dps, we don't have utility.  The only thing I can figure out is that we are either (A) only designed to solo  OR  (B) on there to tank heroic content to level people for raiding, kinda like powerlevelers basically.   Because Sony would never admit to (C)  BROKEN</p><p>Best fix is to make us the DPS tanks by increasing our DPS and fix epic avoidance factor.  It's NOT to give us more useless utility.  Brawlers in general should get a 5-10% boost on avoidance vs current, we should get HUGE increase in HP to make up for our lack of mitigation (IE the top 10% max health toons should be bruiser or monk) and brawlers should get a boost in DPS to be directly in line with second tier damage, not 4th or 5th or even, oh yeah bring him since we cant get anyone else.</p><p>As for the topic title of this thread, the stun is too long.  It should be no more then 5 seconds or it is useless while tanking or dpsing.</p>

[mellowknees72]

While I agree that the stifle is too long...uhhh...we never were able to use this ability on heroics or epics before...why not just use it as a final blow type of thing so the stifle doesn't affect DPS? Personally, I think the expansion of the ability to include stronger mobs is a POSITIVE. You couldn't really use it on raids before...so is this *really* game-breaking?

[Uumuuanu]

<cite>Pipes@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I agree that the stifle is too long...uhhh...we never were able to use this ability on heroics or epics before...why not just use it as a final blow type of thing so the stifle doesn't affect DPS?Personally, I think the expansion of the ability to include stronger mobs is a POSITIVE.You couldn't really use it on raids before...so is this *really* game-breaking?</blockquote><p>No, I agree it is a bonus, but 10 seconds seems a bit much.  Personally I can't wait to try it out, I just hope I don't stand there like an idiot for 10 seconds while the mob beats on me because I just hit to for 50khp.</p><p>In the best world ever, they would make it a 5 seconds stun for bruisers and a 2 second stun for the mob.  After all, being punched in the face for that much SHOULD stun them while we deal with our broken fist.</p>

[Geothe]

<p>500 power for 2-3k damage on a single epic mob, combined with a 10 second stifle is stupid.</p><p>500 power for taking 25% of a heroic mobs health makes sense.</p><p> They should change the power cost when used against epics, and that would make DF actually feasible to use.  As it stands, it isn't.</p>

[tt66]

Another idea from the eq2flames.com forums...If we're not going to have a percentage-based damage on epics from Dev Fist anymore, how about adding a stun/interrupt that affected epics to it? It wouldn't increase our DPS at all, but would make it a little bit more flexible.

[mellowknees72]

<cite>Uumuuanu wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pipes@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I agree that the stifle is too long...uhhh...we never were able to use this ability on heroics or epics before...why not just use it as a final blow type of thing so the stifle doesn't affect DPS?Personally, I think the expansion of the ability to include stronger mobs is a POSITIVE.You couldn't really use it on raids before...so is this *really* game-breaking?</blockquote><p>No, I agree it is a bonus, but 10 seconds seems a bit much.  Personally I can't wait to try it out, I just hope I don't stand there like an idiot for 10 seconds while the mob beats on me because I just hit to for 50khp.</p><p>In the best world ever, they would make it a 5 seconds stun for bruisers and a 2 second stun for the mob.  After all, being punched in the face for that much SHOULD stun them while we deal with our broken fist.</p></blockquote><p>That would make sense to me.  LOL - I love your "being punched in the face SHOULD stun them..."</p><p>I know it would stun the hell out of me!</p>

[Zarvax]

<p>I would love to see this skill at 1% again, like it was for a while on test.</p><p>BUT if they have to make it direct damage vs. epics, they should AT LEAST make it as efficient as our other skills...</p><p>(All calculations taken with 654 str, a full suit of perception gear, full masters, and ignoring AA enhancements,)</p><p>Our highest damage skill, Flailing Centipede, does a max of 2195 damage on a 30 second recast and takes 84 power. That gives me 73 DPS and has damage:power ratio of 26:1</p><p>Our lowest damage skill, Rumbling Wyrm, does a max of 491 damage on a 10 second recast and takes 52 power. That gives me 49 DPS and has a damage:power ratio of 9:1</p><p>The average maximum damage between all our skills (10s recast abilities are multiplied by 3 to simulate a 30s recast) is 1281 with an average power cost of 108. That is an average of 43 DPS and an average damage:power ratio of 12:1</p><p>Devastation Fist, as it is currently on test, does a max damage of 3993 on a 180 second recast, and takes 475 power. That gives me 22 DPS and has a damage:power ratio of 8:1</p><p>So, devastation fist is not only less DPS than any other skill we have, it also gives us less damage per point of power we use... this makes it a horrible skill without even mentioning the 10 second stifle associated with it... which should be removed if the damage stays as is.</p><p>If the damage stays as is, you need to reduce the power cost to 333 and the recast time to 93 seconds.  If the recast stays as is, then you need to increase the damage 7740 to get its DPS potential on par with our other skills, and increase its power cost to 645.  If the power cost stays as is, then you need to increase the damage to 5700 and reduce the recast to 130 seconds.</p><p>These changes would put it on par with our average skills for the damage:power ratio and the DPS they provide, it would make it equal to our other skills, not better or worse, currently, it is worse in every way.</p>

[Ramius613]

Ok, I've been reading these forums for the past couple days at work, and getting more upset at the changes and comments I've seen, especially the one on the Bruiser forum from SOE Fan Faire.  Anyway, I'll post my ideas about DF.  First increase the damage, instead of the measely 2-4k that it currently is on test(according to my char copy), how about 1% dmg up to Casters Max HP vs epics, that should cap it our around 8-10k depending on buffs & gear.  Next, cut the power in half, 250 is not so bad, it would have a dmg:pwr ratio of 32-40:1, or less if you only do the 1% depending on the mob.  Third, reduce the stifle, maybe 5-7 sec, this would help to make it a little more appealing.  And finally leave the 3min recast (2 min 44 with AGI AAs), and the 30 sec immunity. 

[Novusod]

I have to say now that it has become clear that devestation fist will not be changed back that this will go down in the books as one of the dumbest changes ever. To do 1% of a raid mob's health was not over powered but something that was really needed to justify bringing an overall gimpy class to raids. Brawlers are one of the best solo'ers yet this change makes solo'ing heroics 25% easier. It makes me really wonder if the devs actually play the game when they make calls that are this out of touch with reality.

[lagerone]

<p>Ditto to PP.</p><p>Help with raid fuctionality we need.  Help with group/solo abilities we do not (speaking as a Bruiser).</p><p>100% solo, 10% heroic, 1% epic</p>

[Docimodo]

Plenty of epic encounters have heroic conned adds. Surely it will land for large damage on these and thus make the skill very useful for annihilating adds to get raid dps back on to named? unless ofcourse it treats heroic conned adds that are part of epic encounters as epics...

[Timaarit]

<cite>Docimodo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Plenty of epic encounters have heroic conned adds. Surely it will land for large damage on these and thus make the skill very useful for annihilating adds to get raid dps back on to named? unless ofcourse it treats heroic conned adds that are part of epic encounters as epics...</blockquote>The problem here is that often the whole raids DPS is targeted on the heroic. And in order to get the DPS advantage, the brawler needs to unleash all CA's before using Devastation Fist. Usually I cannot use them all before the heroics are dead anyway. And if I use DF on incoming, well, then I cannot use any CA's for the next 10 seconds. And generally the heroics have less than 50k health. This means at best 12,5k damage for DF while during the 10 seconds my CA DPS would have given me 8 to 10k damage.Also the heroic adds on epics are really rare. Sure they are fairly common on the nameds but then named fights are a real minority of all fights when raiding. And yes, heroic mobs on epic encounters will count as epics if the encounter is labeled as one. As it is, I cannot use DF on a single target in a group of 4 with when it is labeled as heroic. I can use it on a pet from an epic encounter though but even in its current form of oneshotting the pet, this reduces my DPS significantly. Exept when I miss <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />In Devastation Fists current forms in Test or live, I will not be using it on any raids.

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">BTW are we getting a spell upgrade like the others are like GlacialFlame <i>(Wizards upgrade to Iceflame)</i> or does Devastation Fist just continue to level with us?</span>

[tt66]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">BTW are we getting a spell upgrade like the others are like GlacialFlame <i>(Wizards upgrade to Iceflame)</i> or does Devastation Fist just continue to level with us?</span></blockquote>Ooh, maybe we'll get an upgrade that will actually work on heroic nameds!!!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Junaru]

I think I know what the issue is with it only hitting for a few points but still stifling you it.Checking my logs and I noticed every time that happens it seems that I critted on the hit.(1190348423)[Fri Sep 21 00:20:23 2007] YOUR Devastation Fist critically hits Overseer of Recovery for 163 piercing damage.Anyone elses logs show that?

[Sapphirius]

<p>I haven't used DF at all that much since the changes. (The RNG hates me, and I don't see much point in stifling myself when the mob just resists the dang thing all the time.) I'll have to go whack a few things and see if this happens to me.</p>

[Cocytus]

<p>With my bruiser, I've actually seen that Devastation Fist upped my DPS by about 200 per fight, which is pretty significant.</p><p> Went from averaging 1.2k to about 1.4-1.5, with mediocre group buffs (only buffed by an inquisitor).</p><p>Also, Nozomi - You don't get stifled if Devastation Fist misses <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>edit - I would imagine the extra small damage amount is to ensure that the mob dies, not just that you bring it to 0 and it gets buggy or something. I have been under this assumption for however long I've had the ability now...maybe at least a year :p</p>

[Novusod]

Devastation Fist will usually hit for a small amount of damage and then a large amount of damage. Sometimes the small number will land and then the large hit will get resisted and you will get stifled which is a real pain.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote><b><i><u><span style="color: #ffff00;">I think I know what the issue is with it only hitting for a few points but still stifling you it.</span></u></i></b>Checking my logs and I noticed every time that happens it seems that I critted on the hit.(1190348423)[Fri Sep 21 00:20:23 2007] YOUR Devastation Fist critically hits Overseer of Recovery for 163 piercing damage.Anyone elses logs show that?</blockquote><p><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Also, Nozomi - You don't get stifled if Devastation Fist misses <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote><p>When I'm not hitting for the chunk it says it'll hit for, but I can't use any other CAs for 10 seconds... I'd call that stifling for missing.</p>

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think I know what the issue is with it only hitting for a few points but still stifling you it.Checking my logs and I noticed every time that happens it seems that I critted on the hit.(1190348423)[Fri Sep 21 00:20:23 2007] YOUR Devastation Fist critically hits Overseer of Recovery for 163 piercing damage.Anyone elses logs show that?</blockquote>Okies, hun, reading through my combat logs, I see where I'm hitting for a small amount of piercing damage but not the second bigger blow. One of them is <i>not</i> a critical hit. It was a good observation though. I truly do wish that the stifle wouldn't apply if the mob resists the big "thump."

[Daine]

Okay, I'm not even a brawler and I have to say the whole thing is [I cannot control my vocabulary] (apparently the word riitardead spelled correctly is censored, WHY?).  My bruiser is only 22 and I don't play her much except to craft at the moment so it's not like I have much of a personal interest in this.  Damage needs to go up, drawbacks need to go down.  I see our pally and furies (when DPSing instead of tanking or healing) outDPS brawlers often.That being said, you guys do have some awesome utility on raids already, in the form of Feign Death.  We use our brawlers to check for traps in Halls of Seeing and Deathtoll as well as split the first few mobs and blow up the wall in Freethinker's.  They also pull mobs to us this way sometimes.  However...once again there are other classes that can perform your function.  There's almost always a necro in the raid since they give out hearts, and they can FD once a minute I believe.  Shadowknights can FD as well, and a tinkerer can make/use an item that FDs with 99% success.  ANYBODY can be a tinkerer.  That means that if the raid was willing they could have the wizzy perform the same functions as a brawler while having much more DPS afterwards and feeding the tank/healers power, then manaburning the mob to death at 2%.  Inquisitors could do the same as mentioned above with Verdict.  Please SOE, have a heart and do SOMETHING to equalize this, or you're going to isolate a lot of excellent players and people.  There are a lot of high level brawlers out there b/c they're fun to play and easy to solo, and once you reach 70 with them there's not a lot to do if you don't raid.  EQ II has lost a lot of people already, please don't let all the brawlers drift away too because they feel unneeded endgame.  I feel unneeded enough as a fury, and I HEAL people.  Pretty please?  If nothing else it will make your job easier b/c you won't have to listen to them complain as much <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" />

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">The previous poster has it correct on many accounts. Adding a little unconteded avoidance and unchaining<i> (No weapons? Come on!)  </i>our strength line would also help!</span></p>

[Cocytus]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote><b><i><u><span style="color: #ffff00;">I think I know what the issue is with it only hitting for a few points but still stifling you it.</span></u></i></b>Checking my logs and I noticed every time that happens it seems that I critted on the hit.(1190348423)[Fri Sep 21 00:20:23 2007] YOUR Devastation Fist critically hits Overseer of Recovery for 163 piercing damage.Anyone elses logs show that?</blockquote><p><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Also, Nozomi - You don't get stifled if Devastation Fist misses <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote><p>When I'm not hitting for the chunk it says it'll hit for, but I can't use any other CAs for 10 seconds... I'd call that stifling for missing.</p></blockquote><p>Actually, no...If you miss, you're not stifled. I figured out today what the problem is.</p><p>They added in a stealth change that makes all (or at least, all I've tested it on) nameds immune to devastation fist. The tiny damage portion will hit for its tiny amount, and you will be stifled. No big damage. Just the poopy 200ish damage + 10 sec stifle.</p><p>/sarcasticclap</p><p>Awesome.... -_-</p>

[Sapphirius]

<p>NM, no point in trying to explain.</p>

[tt66]

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Actually, no...If you miss, you're not stifled. I figured out today what the problem is.</p><p>They added in a stealth change that makes all (or at least, all I've tested it on) nameds immune to devastation fist. The tiny damage portion will hit for its tiny amount, and you will be stifled. No big damage. Just the poopy 200ish damage + 10 sec stifle.</p><p>/sarcasticclap</p><p>Awesome.... -_-</p></blockquote>See, the truly horrific thing is that this really does explain everything that I'm seeing!It says a lot about my opinion of SoE at the moment that I'd even consider believing that they decided to make some mobs randomly immune to a brawlers CA...Must be a bug, please let it be a bug...

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">With our luck it is probably a feature, I tried using Dev Fist on a named never seemed to do much if any damage not even the touted 25% on Heroics. although Duel Wield seems a bit better, but pulling a wait and see on this.</span>

[Tae]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>One of the neatest suggestions I saw was making StoneDeaf/Tsunami a group-wide buff. Simple, useful and doesn't threaten any other classes niche. Not mind blowingly awesome, but cool enough to make a raid leader think "ooh, wouldn't it be nice if we could find a brawler to fill this raid out a bit..."</blockquote>Jesus christ no that is extremely powerful. In PvP a monk is already a pretty good character, having that ability would make them insane. Please, when suggesting changes at least think how they work in regards to fighting other players too, because in many cases it really appears sony doesn't. 1% damage on an epic seems perfectly fine to me, since Inquisitors can do it. Also I notice that 90% of the people posting in this thread are Monks rather than Bruisers.

[tt66]

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>One of the neatest suggestions I saw was making StoneDeaf/Tsunami a group-wide buff. Simple, useful and doesn't threaten any other classes niche. Not mind blowingly awesome, but cool enough to make a raid leader think "ooh, wouldn't it be nice if we could find a brawler to fill this raid out a bit..."</blockquote>Jesus christ no that is extremely powerful. In PvP a monk is already a pretty good character, having that ability would make them insane. Please, when suggesting changes at least think how they work in regards to fighting other players too, because in many cases it really appears sony doesn't. 1% damage on an epic seems perfectly fine to me, since Inquisitors can do it. Also I notice that 90% of the people posting in this thread are Monks rather than Bruisers.</blockquote>Guilty as charged : I didn't even think about PvP. I was very much focused on end-game PvE, trying to come up with a suggestion that would make brawlers more of an asset to a raidforce. (Since the 1% on epics thing was apparently so overpowered that it needed to be dropped or.. i dunno, assassins would complain or something.)The only things I know about PvP are that you can't Dev Fist other players, and that Drag doesn't actually drag them. Since those are two of my favorite things, it doesn't have much of an appeal to me <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Tae]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The only things I know about PvP are that you can't Dev Fist other players, and that Drag doesn't actually drag them. Since those are two of my favorite things, it doesn't have much of an appeal to me <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>Drag does drag other players, and is a very important ability. But Dev Fist does not work, and nor should it. The PvP servers have an abundance of brawlers and since raiding is so hard for us I would be pretty happy with a 1% extra damage on epics from them.

[tt66]

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The only things I know about PvP are that you can't Dev Fist other players, and that Drag doesn't actually drag them. Since those are two of my favorite things, it doesn't have much of an appeal to me <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></blockquote>Drag does drag other players, and is a very important ability. But Dev Fist does not work, and nor should it. The PvP servers have an abundance of brawlers and since raiding is so hard for us I would be pretty happy with a 1% extra damage on epics from them.</blockquote>Drag still actually drags? The GU36 notes said that in PvP  : "The Drag achievement will no longer teleport your target to you."Guess I still learn something new every so often!

[Sapphirius]

Some combat abilities are not useable against other players. DF is one of them. As for monks posting, this isn't a bruiser-only thread, and the current use of DF in raids favors the way bruisers fight and works against monks. Of course monks are posting.

[Harvash]

<cite>Uumuuanu wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, so we are supposed to have the most HP per STA, the most HP over all of all the tanks.  And 4 brawlers do, by a few hundred HP.  Actually the difference between the monk listed in 4th and the guardian listed in 5th is a whopping 26hp </p></blockquote><p>Slightly off topic perhaps, but I was thinking about just this thing the other day.  Not only do the plates beat us in the Mit category - but what about the small, faster casting heals of the pally and the in combat health regen of the zerker.  I always thought that regen was to off-set their slighty lower defensive capabilities - so why not give monks something similar.  Heck, we slowly kill ourselves with the haste buff - why not have it work in reverse while in mixed or full defensive stance?  Just a thought.</p><p>As for Dfist, I agree it could use some tweaking, but at least its going in the right direction - it CAN be used against everything now.  Up til now, I really havent used it since being in low-60s to level, just seemed as fast to punch the mob <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />.  The only 'wish-list' item i would ask for is maybe a slight reduction in stifle time - say 10s down to 5-8s? Also, if they are going to do away with the 1% Epic hit, then 34% resist is WAY to high. And, lastly, if it doesnt actually hit, please, please don't make us wait the full reset timer - it just doesnt make any sense.</p>

[Avokk]

If wizards would have an ancient teaching spell with a 35% resist chance that could do 1% dmg on an epic mob id be happy even if it stifles me for 10s after... (doesnt auto-attack work during stifle ?)And before anyone say manaburn, you should know that to cast it (every 5-6ish minute) you get to spend all power to cast it (leaving you OOP and 0 DPS thereafter) and thats not considering the 21 points you need to waste on power line AA's which are FAR (light years away) better used in ICE-Fire lines for raid DPS...Bottom line, D Fist is fine as it is

[tt66]

<cite>Avokk wrote:</cite><blockquote>If wizards would have an ancient teaching spell with a 35% resist chance that could do 1% dmg on an epic mob id be happy even if it stifles me for 10s after... (doesnt auto-attack work during stifle ?)And before anyone say manaburn, you should know that to cast it (every 5-6ish minute) you get to spend all power to cast it (leaving you OOP and 0 DPS thereafter) and thats not considering the 21 points you need to waste on power line AA's which are FAR (light years away) better used in ICE-Fire lines for raid DPS...Bottom line, D Fist is fine as it is</blockquote>Yup, if Bruisers had an ancient teaching spell with a 35% resist chance that could do 1% dmg on an epic mob,  I'd be happy even if it stifles me for 10s after. I'm not really sure what your point is here?

[Avokk]

Thought D Fist was an ancient teachings or Bloodline spell... like you dont get to spend AA's to get it

[tt66]

Oh it is. Bloodlines, that is. My point is that it doesn't do 1% dmg on an epic mob <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Sapphirius]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Avokk wrote:</cite><blockquote>If wizards would have an ancient teaching spell with a 35% resist chance that could do 1% dmg on an epic mob id be happy even if it stifles me for 10s after... (doesnt auto-attack work during stifle ?)And before anyone say manaburn, you should know that to cast it (every 5-6ish minute) you get to spend all power to cast it (leaving you OOP and 0 DPS thereafter) and thats not considering the 21 points you need to waste on power line AA's which are FAR (light years away) better used in ICE-Fire lines for raid DPS...Bottom line, D Fist is fine as it is</blockquote>Yup, if Bruisers had an ancient teaching spell with a 35% resist chance that could do 1% dmg on an epic mob,  I'd be happy even if it stifles me for 10s after. I'm not really sure what your point is here?</blockquote>The question is, are they actually going to raise epic damage back to 1%? This all seems to hinge on a part of DF that was changed to a set amount of damage rahter than a percentage.

[tt66]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Avokk wrote:</cite><blockquote>If wizards would have an ancient teaching spell with a 35% resist chance that could do 1% dmg on an epic mob id be happy even if it stifles me for 10s after... (doesnt auto-attack work during stifle ?)And before anyone say manaburn, you should know that to cast it (every 5-6ish minute) you get to spend all power to cast it (leaving you OOP and 0 DPS thereafter) and thats not considering the 21 points you need to waste on power line AA's which are FAR (light years away) better used in ICE-Fire lines for raid DPS...Bottom line, D Fist is fine as it is</blockquote>Yup, if Bruisers had an ancient teaching spell with a 35% resist chance that could do 1% dmg on an epic mob,  I'd be happy even if it stifles me for 10s after. I'm not really sure what your point is here?</blockquote>The question is, are they actually going to raise epic damage back to 1%? This all seems to hinge on a part of DF that was changed to a set amount of damage rahter than a percentage.</blockquote>Well, they may, or they may not. Since it took a grand total of 1 day of whining (sorry, sorry.. "testing&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> on the test forum to decide that 1% was too much, then I doubt it. But I live in hope.Suffice to say... D Fist is not as fine as some non-brawlers might think <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Zarafein]

<p>Someone able to see if this at least works against nameds now(on test)? my test bruiser is so low i could only see that stomp description is still bugged.</p>

[Sapphirius]

Oh! Good point! I'll try it out when I get home. I haven't logged on test in like a week.

[Betty]

<p>I am just starting to use DF on my gnome monk, who is level 41 as of today. I did however, use it on the champion in the arena of DFC for around 19.3 k, which was a kill shot from about 28% left on his health, and I used  DF on Emporer Fyst forr just over 19k, which also was the kill shot but from around 20%. Not sure if this is right or not, good or bad, just throwing this recent data out there for evaluation.</p><p> Seemed like alot of damage for that level (39 or 40 at the time) but used to finish a fight, negates the stifle issue.</p>

[Sapphirius]

Well, the stifle issue is only a problem on <i>epic </i>encounters. As DF stands right now, I think it's overpowered for heroic & group content. (That's my personal opinion.)

[JohnDoe058]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, the stifle issue is only a problem on <i>epic </i>encounters. As DF stands right now, I think it's overpowered for heroic & group content. (That's my personal opinion.)</blockquote><p>Lol, maybe if it worked on heroic names.</p><p>Overpowered?  Do we really want to get started on which classes have the most overpowered abilities?  HA HA HA HA.  Here's a clue:  not brawlers.</p><p>On my bruiser, I find DF to be only midly useful, because it generally fails when I need it the most.  But that occasional BIG hit is nice.</p>

[Hamervelder]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I hear about 25% Percent on Heroics.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Unfortunatly The Developers were hasty when they nerfed the Epic damage 1% in not a lot just Mistmore has a LOT of HP. They didn't even let it test out for more then a few hours. EQ flames <b><u><i>whiners</i></u></b> are what I hear is the cause of that.</span></p></blockquote>I think I visited EQflames once.  And only once.  In the ten minutes I was there, my IQ dropped.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>JohnDoe058 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, the stifle issue is only a problem on <i>epic </i>encounters. As DF stands right now, I think it's overpowered for heroic & group content. (That's my personal opinion.)</blockquote><p>Lol, maybe if it worked on heroic names.</p><p>Overpowered?  Do we really want to get started on which classes have the most overpowered abilities?  HA HA HA HA.  Here's a clue:  not brawlers.</p><p>On my bruiser, I find DF to be only midly useful, because it generally fails when I need it the most.  But that occasional BIG hit is nice.</p></blockquote>You don't play on Test do you? Or if you do, you haven't tried it on a named recently, have you?

[Siclone]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh it is. Bloodlines, that is. My point is that it doesn't do 1% dmg on an epic mob <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>dude i guess your new here, it don't matter if the wiz spell dont do 1% on epics....facts are not the issue. 

[Siclone]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bramwell@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lannyjp wrote:</cite><blockquote>I average 1400-1700dps </blockquote>Maybe this is why.  What do you spike at?  2500? Your DPS is at the top of the parse in a lot of guilds and you are a TANK class.  Making you a pure DPS class for raids is not the answer.  Then you get to be an "Overpowered" tank class for grouping/soloing and the best DPS class for raiding.  Giving a class the ability to do 30000 dps even with a 10 second stile is huge...too much for a raid because you all know you would use it during the last 1-2% of a mobs HP basically eliminating the stifle from causing any effect..</blockquote>If 2500 dps is the top of the parse, it won't be being done by the brawler.<span style="color: #ff3300;">sorry thats wrong, our Bruiser hits the 2200 to 2500 and often that is the top of the parse.  </span>If the brawler is doing 2500 dps, it won't be at the top of the parse.Can we TANK a raid? If we can't TANK a raid, then we're not a TANK class, are we? If making us a pure DPS class for raids is not the answer, what else are we supposed to bring to the raid? <span style="color: #ff0000;">yes Bralwers can tank raids..Ours does.  When our gardian is off our Brawler often tanks, and when there are encounters when you need to off tank ,,,the Brusier does a great job.so yes you can tank groups too.</span>In fact.. wait a second.. <b>best DPS class for raiding?</b> Are you mad? <span style="color: #ff0000;">What he is saying is if brawlers got what they wanted, not only will you be good tanks but one of the best dps classes out there, Brawlers role is group tanks, and raid off- tanks, and when they are not tanking they do decent DPS and the bonus of course is they can solo great and have some nice utility with drag and fd ect.</span></blockquote>

[Sapphirius]

Ya know, Siclone. You keep telling us about "our bruiser" but you have yet to post for us any <i>zonewide</i> parses for him. I couldn't give a hoot about single fights. I wanna see his zonewide and compare it to everyone else in that raid. If you're bruiser is hitting 2500 zone wide, then your predators should be hitting 3K.

[RustyB]

A bruiser having a ZW parse of 2500ish  is quite feasible.  I depends on their equipment, CA quality and group setup, but I assure you  it can be done.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Yerni@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>A bruiser having a ZW parse of 2500ish  is quite feasible.  I depends on their equipment, CA quality and group setup, but I assure you  it can be done.</blockquote>The part I cry foul on is his bruiser consistently topping the parse over everyone else in the raid. Sorcerers and predators should be outparsing that bruiser on the zonewide, and if they're not, then they don't know how to play their classes. Apparently, you didn't read his "bruisers overpowered" thread a while back. His above post is just a continuation of that thread.

[Gungo]

Yea silicone is a known lier on this board. He posts random lies to prove a point he can't defend. He has been called out many times and fails to provide any proof or any individual who will back up his claims. Fact is his bruiser numbers came directly off the flames boards. He never seen a bruiser parse 2.5k zone wides. Because in order to parse 2.5k zone wides you actually have to have more gear then silicones raid alliance can get. Fact is in a guild w a bruiser parsing 2.5k zone wide the predators, sorcerers, conjurors, rogues, illusionists are all parsing 2.5k-4k.2.5k are what the best geared bruisers in guilds parsing 40k+ zones wides are posting. And yes a bruiser can offtank hell any rogue/fighter can off tank w enough gear. But again silicones raid alliance is no where remotely close to obtaining that gear. In fact if his bruiser was offtanking/tanking there is no way he can parse 2.5k. There is not one bruiser world wide parsing 2.5k while tanking/offtanking in defensive.

[tt66]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JohnDoe058 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, the stifle issue is only a problem on <i>epic </i>encounters. As DF stands right now, I think it's overpowered for heroic & group content. (That's my personal opinion.)</blockquote><p>Lol, maybe if it worked on heroic names.</p><p>Overpowered?  Do we really want to get started on which classes have the most overpowered abilities?  HA HA HA HA.  Here's a clue:  not brawlers.</p><p>On my bruiser, I find DF to be only midly useful, because it generally fails when I need it the most.  But that occasional BIG hit is nice.</p></blockquote>You don't play on Test do you? Or if you do, you haven't tried it on a named recently, have you?</blockquote>Ooh, does this mean that they've actually fixed it properly and I can stop spamming the /bug each time the [Removed for Content] 25% damage doesn't happen?

[RustyB]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Yerni@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>A bruiser having a ZW parse of 2500ish  is quite feasible.  I depends on their equipment, CA quality and group setup, but I assure you  it can be done.</blockquote>The part I cry foul on is his bruiser consistently topping the parse over everyone else in the raid. Sorcerers and predators should be outparsing that bruiser on the zonewide, and if they're not, then they don't know how to play their classes. Apparently, you didn't read his "bruisers overpowered" thread a while back. His above post is just a continuation of that thread.</blockquote>well...  I do remember coming across an obnoxious post like that a little while ago.  As for Sorcerers and Predators "should" be outparsing part.  I'm going to repeat something that was told to me a lil while ago.  "There is no SHOULD column in ACT."  Now there is no doubt in my mind that this dude is a complete idiot / [Removed for Content] disturber, but you never know.   Maybe their bruiser has just been lucky wit hthe drops and possibly the preds and sorcs in his guild are decked outin mastercrafted and App4 skills.  /shrug

[RustyB]

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>In fact if his bruiser was offtanking/tanking there is no way he can parse 2.5k. There is not one bruiser world wide parsing 2.5k while tanking/offtanking in defensive. </blockquote><p>yeah.  If he's saying stuff like that then he is a complete [Removed for Content].</p><p> haha  he probably just lost to a Bruiser in a /duel and has been bitter ever since.  lol</p>

[Xanrn]

<p>Can we get this ability fixed vs Epics please.</p><p>When I am doing 7k crits again epics and crits just shy of 55k dmg against Screwloose, something needs to be changed.</p><p>Its need atleast 2 times the dmg versus epic with the 500 power cost and 10 sec stifle.</p><p> I don't know what was wrong with 1% against Epics,.</p>

[Agaxiq]

I've seen a 3k bruiser zone-wide parse, and I believe it.  But no, that is not normal.  You have to be farming avatars to get the gear and skill to be able to pull that off.agressiv

[liveja]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ff3300;">sorry thats wrong, our Bruiser hits the 2200 to 2500 and often that is the top of the parse.</span></blockquote><p>1. Prove it. You keep spouting this line, now, prove it.</p><p>2. If your sorcerors, predators, summoners, & rogues are being consistently out-parsed by a Bruiser, then something is wrong with the players of those classes -- either their gear sucks, or they simply don't know what they're doing.</p><p>3. Wouldn't you be better off learning how to play your own class, rather than constantly trolling Bruiser & Rogue threads with your flaming jealousy?</p><p>4. I wish Devastation Fist worked on message board posters.</p>

[RustyB]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ff3300;">sorry thats wrong, our Bruiser hits the 2200 to 2500 and often that is the top of the parse.</span></blockquote><p>4. I wish Devastation Fist worked on message board posters.</p></blockquote>[Removed for Content]

[Gungo]

<cite>agressiv4 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've seen a 3k bruiser zone-wide parse, and I believe it.  But no, that is not normal.  You have to be farming avatars to get the gear and skill to be able to pull that off.agressiv</blockquote><p>There is onyl 1 bruiser who posted a zone wide of 3k. And it was not even a complete zone wide. He did not include the last 2 named becuase he died and his parse dropped. His actual unchanged zone wide was only 2600+. BUT </p><p>Here is the key he still was not top of the parse because the people in his guild had just as good gear and his guild actually had 3k+ zone wide parsing predators/sorcerers/rogues/summoners.</p><p>Now your trying to tell me silcone with his pick up raid has a bruiser parsing 2.5k zone wides in slightly better then kos trash gear and in non stacked groups whiel offtanking?</p><p>I am sorry the guy is so full of it. It is not even funny. As i said he is a known lier on thsi board. </p>

[Dracot]

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Has anyone on Test played around with this now that it can affect +, ++, +++, of all three solo, group, and raid encounters? That's what the patch message makes it sound like it can do.</p><p>If it was a straight kill on normal mobs who didn't have an up arrow, what does it do now?</p></blockquote><p>I found it pretty funny when I casted my pets immunity to dmg that trades power for health whena  monk tried this CA on it.   The pet lose 80% power, and continued whoop'n [Removed for Content] on the monk.</p>

[Junaru]

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>agressiv4 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've seen a 3k bruiser zone-wide parse, and I believe it.  But no, that is not normal.  You have to be farming avatars to get the gear and skill to be able to pull that off.agressiv</blockquote><p>There is onyl 1 bruiser who posted a zone wide of 3k. And it was not even a complete zone wide. He did not include the last 2 named becuase he died and his parse dropped. His actual unchanged zone wide was only 2600+. BUT </p><p>Here is the key he still was not top of the parse because the people in his guild had just as good gear and his guild actually had 3k+ zone wide parsing predators/sorcerers/rogues/summoners.</p><p>Now your trying to tell me silcone with his pick up raid has a bruiser parsing 2.5k zone wides in slightly better then kos trash gear and in non stacked groups whiel offtanking?</p><p>I am sorry the guy is so full of it. It is not even funny. As i said he is a known lier on thsi board. </p></blockquote>I guess for the heck of maybe a top geared Brawler could have joined his pick up raid and out parsed some KoS/Legendary/Mastercrafted raiders.I've topped the parses on pickup raids. Even finished 1st on a Labs pick up raid with a 1.8k ZW. But 1.8k is far from T1 DPS. The fact was most had subpar gear or/and don't raid often.

[nat_lyte]

hope im not necroing this thread, but it was actually 4% on test for the few hours it was in that form, which was a HUGE hit on any self respecting epic mob

[Siclone]

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>agressiv4 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've seen a 3k bruiser zone-wide parse, and I believe it.  But no, that is not normal.  You have to be farming avatars to get the gear and skill to be able to pull that off.agressiv</blockquote><p>There is onyl 1 bruiser who posted a zone wide of 3k. And it was not even a complete zone wide. He did not include the last 2 named becuase he died and his parse dropped. His actual unchanged zone wide was only 2600+. BUT </p><p>Here is the key he still was not top of the parse because the people in his guild had just as good gear and his guild actually had 3k+ zone wide parsing predators/sorcerers/rogues/summoners.</p><p>Now your trying to tell me silcone with his pick up raid has a bruiser parsing 2.5k zone wides in slightly better then kos trash gear and in non stacked groups whiel offtanking?</p><p>I am sorry the guy is so full of it. It is not even funny. As i said he is a known lier on thsi board. </p></blockquote>thats not my quote you quoted and I never said  anything about a pick up raid or kos trash gear, or doing 2.5 zw while off tanking-----thats you saying that, changing and twisting what I was saying.this is the typical.  I state solid facts back them up with examples and people saying what I am saying, and you change the subject.  Because you cant win the argument.to summorize, a Good bruiser in a good raid guild can easily break 2k DPS.A good bruiser can Tank any KoS Raid zone and off tank EoF raid zones.Bruisers are one of the more solid classes in EQ2.  I have seen this first hand and showed you posts from Bruisers that back this up.  What more can I do.This change was a GU 38---get this brawler whine off the test server boards!

[Xanrn]

<p>Yeah whatever dude. Go back to playing with your barbies.</p><p>Fix Dev Fist vs Epics it does nowhere near enough dmg for 500 power and a stifle.</p>

[Sedenten]

<cite>Xanrn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Yeah whatever dude. Go back to playing with your barbies.</p><p>Fix Dev Fist vs Epics it does nowhere near enough dmg for 500 power and a stifle.</p></blockquote>4% versus epics isn't enough damage for 500 power and a stifle?  I'd pay 2000 power with a stifle myself to do 4% versus epics, and I'm not a bruiser.  At least, 4% versus epics is what it's currently registering on Test.  That sounds fairly reasonable, and I can't exactly figure out what more would be fairer.

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Sedenten wrote:</cite><blockquote>4% versus epics isn't enough damage for 500 power and a stifle?  I'd pay 2000 power with a stifle myself to do 4% versus epics, and I'm not a bruiser.  At least, 4% versus epics is what it's currently registering on Test.  That sounds fairly reasonable, and I can't exactly figure out what more would be fairer.</blockquote><p>It was <i>never</i> 4%, in spite of what our plated friend above says. At one point the concept may have been 4%, but there is no confirmation to support what our misinformed friend nat_lyte claims.</p><p>When DF was introduced to the Test servers, it was introduced with <b>1%</b> to epic damage. Within what was quite literally hours, it was nerfed to a mere 3K damage. That 3K was, of course, dependant upon your stats. You could crit for more than that, but at 500 power for a mere 3K damage and a 10 second stifle, it's not worth it for epic content.</p><p>Please do point me to where it says in black and white <i>from a dev</i> that DF is doing 4% damage on epics on the Test server.</p>

[tt66]

I'd heard it was 4% versus x2 epics and 1% versus x4 epics.Never got a chance to try it out myself, what with it being changed to 4000 damage on the first day of the test server...Edit : oh hey there <b>Siclone</b>, how's the brawler hate working out for you? Is your imaginary bruiser friend still out-parsing your assassin?

[Gungo]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>agressiv4 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've seen a 3k bruiser zone-wide parse, and I believe it.  But no, that is not normal.  You have to be farming avatars to get the gear and skill to be able to pull that off.agressiv</blockquote><p>There is onyl 1 bruiser who posted a zone wide of 3k. And it was not even a complete zone wide. He did not include the last 2 named becuase he died and his parse dropped. His actual unchanged zone wide was only 2600+. BUT </p><p>Here is the key he still was not top of the parse because the people in his guild had just as good gear and his guild actually had 3k+ zone wide parsing predators/sorcerers/rogues/summoners.</p><p>Now your trying to tell me silcone with his pick up raid has a bruiser parsing 2.5k zone wides in slightly better then kos trash gear and in non stacked groups whiel offtanking?</p><p>I am sorry the guy is so full of it. It is not even funny. As i said he is a known lier on thsi board. </p></blockquote>thats not my quote you quoted and I never said  anything about a pick up raid or kos trash gear, or doing 2.5 zw while off tanking-----thats you saying that, changing and twisting what I was saying.this is the typical.  I state solid facts back them up with examples and people saying what I am saying, and you change the subject.  Because you cant win the argument.to summorize, a Good bruiser in a good raid guild can easily break 2k DPS.A good bruiser can Tank any KoS Raid zone and off tank EoF raid zones.Bruisers are one of the more solid classes in EQ2.  I have seen this first hand and showed you posts from Bruisers that back this up.  What more can I do.This change was a GU 38---get this brawler whine off the test server boards!</blockquote>No i said exactly what you posted. a bruiser can offtank and put up 2.5k zone wides. Which you exclaim as typical. It is complete and utter lies. Fact is i can put up 2-2.5k zone wides w contested gear. But you know what even last nigth in mmis while i put up 2.4k zone wides i was still 8th on the parse, because we had no less then 5 people parsing 3k+(without stakes).  All that you have seen first hand is your crappy pickup raid parsing subpar results becuase you are lieing and you have NEVER seen a bruiser parse 2.5k zone wide. And if for some reason yoru bruiser is parsing 2k zoen wides and is topping the parse then your raid and guild is horrible.You can not compare contested raid guild bruisers parses on the forums and compare them to your crappy guild parses and complain that those contested geared bruisers would be topping your parse. Because you have no freakin clue [Removed for Content] the rest of thier raid is parsing.  Put it this way silocone you have posted so many lies on this board you are already notorious for having no idea what you are talking about. No one here is losing an argument but you, because any credibility you ever had was wasted on your stream of lies.

[liveja]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have seen this first hand and showed you posts from Bruisers that back this up.  What more can I do.</blockquote><p>You have not seen it first hand. You have not showed us posts from Bruisers backing up your claims.</p><p>I linked the thread you showed us, from EQ2 Flames, which said NOTHING EVEN CLOSE to what you claimed.</p><p>What more can you do? Stop being a liar.</p>

[malykii]

<p>Honestly, I don't feel devestation fist should be set to 1% on epic encounters.  A static set amount, where it currently is, seems more in order.  Allowing for the vast difference in epic x4 throughout raid zones.  </p><p>Now for it being useless; that is a very unsupported statement.  After raddling through all your ca, you typically have at least 15 seconds before they start to refresh; this allows ample time for the daze effect to wear off, so it virtually does not effect your casting ability at all(this applies only to when you are dpsing and not tanking).  Granted the power cost is  considerable for the amount of dmg it does but with full fabled gear and adornments 500 power isnt going to make or break you on an encounter, especially with a 5 min recast.   Also, you are not taking in to account that with a fully debuffed mob this ability also hits much harder than just 3.5k; I have crit with it up to 5800.</p><p>I usually will empty out my ca line, hit crane flock, then dev fist--i set it up this way, in reguards to the fact, i don't want to use any ca during crane flock anyhow(I think it is also important to note: I would not do this right off the bat, unless you want to pull agro off the main tank and be dazed for 10 seconds and not able to fd).</p><p>I do empathize with alot of the brawlers, that want to make this game better for us.  I have been playing a monk and bruiser since pretty much release, so I feel your pain.  In this game we are an accessory class.  With the changes in pulling from eq1 to eq2, soe officially subtracted our raid defined usefullness.  Unfortunately we are not dps, and without a full tank group setup, we are not even effective offtanks for raiding; but with the changes made to our buffs, they officially made two spots available in each guild for us.  Brawlers are not a required class of the game anymore.  Our class defining skill, feign death, really has no usefullness to anyone else, and is only there to save our own hind end.  Guilds can be picky in this game because raids don't take 72 people like in eq1. </p><p>If that guy can hit 3k parse that is great, but that is beside the point. It doesn't even compare to the dps i have seen zerker scouts necro wiz put out zonewide.  Elysium--one of the top raiding guilds on crushbone--accidently slipped up the other day and posted their zonewide in channel and 3k wouldnt have made the parse.  I am glad he can parse 3k, or 2600 accourding to gungo, zonewide in a kos zone; now we can argue over who has the bigger ego, him or gungo.  Its easy to make parse on a pickup raid.  When dps classes are geared up like you are and know how to play; think again.</p>

[tt66]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JohnDoe058 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, the stifle issue is only a problem on <i>epic </i>encounters. As DF stands right now, I think it's overpowered for heroic & group content. (That's my personal opinion.)</blockquote><p>Lol, maybe if it worked on heroic names.</p><p>Overpowered?  Do we really want to get started on which classes have the most overpowered abilities?  HA HA HA HA.  Here's a clue:  not brawlers.</p><p>On my bruiser, I find DF to be only midly useful, because it generally fails when I need it the most.  But that occasional BIG hit is nice.</p></blockquote>You don't play on Test do you? Or if you do, you haven't tried it on a named recently, have you?</blockquote>Since this thread got dragged up again, I'm curious as to what you meant by this comment. LU39 has since gone live, and I'm still getting the "this combat art cannot be used on this target" message on some heroic names and yet was still stifled. Was this actually fixed on the test servers?(Oh, and just to mention.. I don't think I've <b>ever</b> had a 15s period in which all my CAs are on cooldown. Kinda tricky what with the 10s cool down on punch/kick <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />. Even a 10s period is a stretch if you've gone 448 in AGI. And once ROK hits, <i>every</i> bruiser will be going 448 AGI...)EDIT : And yes, I'm well aware that spamming CAs is not the best way to maximise DPS, that's not really the issue.

[Jeepned2]

This if from a raiding Dirge who happens to have a 70 monk alt. As it stands right now, almost no changes to Devestation Fist is going to make you any more or less desirable to a raid. Both the monk and bruiser have several other problems that the Devs have never addressed and it doesn't look like they ever will. In our guild it's not unusual for beserkers and guardians to be sitting out for a raid. (obviously we have a few extra tanks). So I'll ask you this, with roughly the same equiped across the board (say fabled class set), who is going to get to fill and extra raid slot, a zerker or a bruiser? Who do you want to take over for the MT if he goes down while fighting Woushi?Bruisers and Monks have been the redheaded stepchildren of SoE since release. Do you really expect that to change?  Personally I feel sorry for the classes. I love my monk, but there is no chance he'll ever get to raid (unless you consider pickup raids raiding). When was the last time you saw a guild recruiting for a monk or bruiser? Hate to tell you this, but the problems with DF only confirm your status, or lack of status with the devs.Good luck to you all. Maybe some day the Dev will actually look at fixing the leathered fighters.

[Shotneedle]

<p>I wouldn't mind if they took away some of our soloibility so we can raid. I chose a monk for RP purposes and the fact that I've played a monk in almost every other game.</p><p>I would much rather be able to raid rather than sit around farming SoS because I couldn't get on a raid.</p><p>Edit: If you SOE guys ever come around to read this (which I doubt you will), then hire someone that plays a brawler so we can get this fixed properly. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Caethre]

<cite>Shotneedle wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>I wouldn't mind if they took away some of our soloibility so we can raid. I chose a monk for RP purposes...</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">OOC.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">You know what they say about opinions.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Fixing DF against epics is a fine request.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">You claim to be a roleplayer. I am a roleplayer. I love my monk character. I chose the class precisely because it can hold its own well in solo and small group settings. I know that monks are excellent in groups, and regularly take part in raids in family guilds and small guild alliances. Now, whether or not the class is considered the absolute pinnacle by the 1% of players in the most hardcore raidguilds, I couldn't care less about.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Sure, call for changes that might positively impact how the class might be viewed in such minority settings if you like. But start calling for changes to suit you and asking for them to be balanced by nerfs to every other playstyle (and even insulting playstyles that are not yours), and you'll get called out as inflammatory for it.</span></p>

[Splor]

This parts off topicWell, here's my 2c.As it goes i parse about 1400ish ZW, spikes of 2500(though only encounters or quick fights).Have I seen brawlers parse 3k+, yes, and they have the best gear in the game and have sacrificed all tanking skills for DPS, and no, they've never topped the parse. That being said, have I ever tanked a raid? Yes i have, i've done labs, DT, and LoA. That being said , every healer in my guild hates when im tanking a zone <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I'm by no means "fabled out" and am a casual raider. I'm usually outparsed by our gaurdian while he's tanking(eh, hes got better gear though).DF as it stand will not work on any named(but will still stifle you). On average, a 8%(i've tried using it a [Removed for Content] I might be unlucky, but this is my take) of hitting a mob from the front. About a 65% chance of hitting a mob at the back. Someone said something about using it to hit non epic mobs in raidzones... Why would you do that exactly? to make your parse look really nice? Heroics in raids go down in about 2-3 seconds anyways. One thing non brawlers don't seem to realize is most brawlers dont have that much power to spend, even when buffed. Since im set up for tanking and wear certain gear just for tanking i sit at a whole 4k- power. Spending 10% of my power to put out a whomping 4k damage isn't my idea of wonderful, especially on fights that are either long or where you HAVE to keep your power up. The stifle is also problematic as you can screw up your order, especially when the tank is chain pulling and eventually you dont have that DPS dead time of which someone was talking about, rather you just have all around low dps every battle.I would say for one remove the stifle. I've hit regular mobs with it and had it pop the message "this combat art cannot be used against the current target" so it obvious someone screwed that up royally. Second either upgrade it to something like ad3 or remove it. If your a brawler in a heroic zone your likely to be tank, and if you have a whomping 8% chance to hit at the front you either have to spin the mob, or chain stun, jump around, and attempt from the back, at which point your still likely to get the wonderful "this combat art cannot be used against the current target" message anyways and your gonna curse when some idiot hits decap right after. Make it usable on all mobs, but round it out a lot better. If I'm gonna spend 10% of my power, hell, have it do 10% to a heroic. Give it a longer timer. I'm not looking at it right now, but i believe its on a 3 min timer, Hell, make the timer 5, 7, or 10 min. 1% of an epic's life is quite amazing i'll admit to that. Manaburn with some luvin isnt even going to do that some times. Perhaps skew it to the bruiser, say 1.5x bruiser current  max-hps for epics? when im usually buffed in a raid I'm at like 10-11k so say a whomping 16k damage hit every 10min... would be nice and wouldnt even come close to decaps 25-40k's i've seen. it would also  skew with the level and the gear setup of the bruiser.

[jrolla777]

Please change this skill to not stifle the brawler if the combat art cant be used on that type of enemy. Also, the fairy trash in emerald halls (xxxxx pranksters or something, heroic and epic level ones) give the message that Dev Fist cant be used on them, still stifles us.

[Asif]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I hear about 25% Percent on Heroics.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Unfortunatly The Developers were hasty when they nerfed the Epic damage 1% in not a lot just Mistmore has a LOT of HP. They didn't even let it test out for more then a few hours. EQ flames <b><u><i>whiners</i></u></b> are what I hear is the cause of that.</span></p></blockquote>Hmm i feel for you guys but that site has more knowledge than all the other ones put together so try to get your facts straight before calling anyone whinners !!!!

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>Asif wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I hear about 25% Percent on Heroics.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Unfortunatly The Developers were hasty when they nerfed the Epic damage 1% in not a lot just Mistmore has a LOT of HP. They didn't even let it test out for more then a few hours. EQ flames <b><u><i>whiners</i></u></b> are what I hear is the cause of that.</span></p></blockquote>Hmm i feel for you guys but that site has more knowledge than all the other ones put together so try to get your facts straight before calling anyone whinners !!!!</blockquote>His facts are straight, and the level of knowledge of eq2flames doesn't change the fact that it was nerfed after a few vocal raiders on eq2flames denounced its original effect as overpowered.  Whether that was the actual cause of the nerf can't be certain, but it supposedly had already been in the works for months, so it seems unlikely that it was a completely internal SOE decision that just happened to occur hours after it was made live (on test). 

[mr23sgte]

<p>BUMP!!!</p><p>B/C on BETA I still get the wonderful stifle and no damage on some named..................if it doesnt work ENTIRELY on some named, why should I be stifled still --- FIX!!!!</p>

[Beogon]

<p>I play a bruiser and we hit up unrest last week with a monk guildie of mine. She was landing her dev fist on the names for 30k + as where mine was landing for 300dmg...and the stifle. Same thing on the heroic named in shard o fear. [Removed for Content] is that about? Dunno, maybe this has been covered already, but does it work differently for monks than bruisers?</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Random Effect apparently, I sometimes don't do much on standard enemies, as in Solo-Writ enemies!</span></p>

[Timaarit]

I have noticed that occasionally mobs are immune to Devastation Fist. So some skill that others have triggers some sort of immunity. Especially with 2 brawlers the second to use DF will only get the 200+ damage and stifle while the first did the full damage.I also noticed that sometimes DF does divine damage and sometimes crushing.Anyway, the skill is totally broken against anything but solo mobs. The damage against epics is far too low and then the damage against heroics can be >100k. I love the skill now while leveling up and doing instances but I will also remove it from my hotbars when raiding full time again. As I have mentioned earlier, the revamp of this skill did in no way improve brawlers in our weakest area - raiding. It did however make us one of the top DPS classes on heroic content where we already were very good at.

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">That is because there is a timer set immunity once devastation fist lands. It is at the bottom of the description. </span>

[Timaarit]

I know. The thing is that some other effect makes the mobs immune also. I have been stifled several times without landing DF even when soloing.

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">You sure it's not landing sometimes it only grazes them because I will see a penny-atty  amount of damage a lot of those times.</span>

[Timaarit]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">You sure it's not landing sometimes it only grazes them because I will see a penny-atty  amount of damage a lot of those times.</span></blockquote>I see the initial 300 or so landing and then I get stifled. On heroic nameds at  least there is a text "Immune" floating up in these cases but with the few solo mobs there hasn't been.

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">Yeah, I'd call that one of the grazes I was mentioning. Developers please fix this it is not working as it should.</span>

[Timaarit]

I noticed that they have fixed some of the issues. For example I was in Crypt of Agony with another monk. When he used DF on a named, I got a message stating that DF cannot be used at this time and didn't get stifled. After the immunity wore off, I was able to use DF normally.Also at least the nameds in Jarsath give a message stating they are immune and I dont get stifled.So looks like the problem here is when a monk uses DF and a bruiser tries the same. Maybe for some reason the script doesn't recognize the immunity and DF is used but for no effect on those cases. It might be the same when bruiser uses DF first and then the monk.

[jrolla777]

no, they still havent fixed this. Please make Dev Fist not stifle us if it cant be used on a particular named. 300 damage + stifle cant be intended.