Change when interacting with objects? [Archive]

Bramwe

08-30-2007, 05:30 PM

<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote>This has to be a bug... there's puzzles in the game that depend on stealth. How are you supposed to do the simultaneous-level-activation thing in Unrest without stealth? Doing so spawns a pair of ^^^ mobs, doesn't it? Now every Unrest group has to be 2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 DPS with each trio capable of handling a pair of triple-ups?</blockquote>Before it was widely known invis worked groups would have a scout or a pet or whatever tank one set while the MT outran the second set by himself and came back to help. By the time the first set was dead the second set would be coming up the stairs to engage since they run so slow <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" /> I think they are only ^^ and fairly easy. This is how I always did it anyway and it never failed.

Prrasha

08-31-2007, 04:35 PM

Ah, they're only 2-up-arrow mobs? (I never looked; the invis technique was a given by the time I was running Unrest.) Not impossible, then, just annoying.So, next question... possibly applicable everywhere, but important in Unrest...Is "use an item in the world" Uninterruptible, Interruptible (like a non-zero-cast-time spell), or Impossible while being attacked (like harvesting?)If it's Interruptible or Impossible, and the mobs in Unrest spawn when you start moving the lever, that's still a bad design decis ion. (And no, this isn't a whine from a stealth-dependent character. My top 3 are paladin, illusionist, and warden... and I keep forgetting about invis (or wanting to maintain runspeed buffs) and training mobs everywhere on my illusionist.)Since everyone in the game can get invis through easily-available jaguar/chameleon totems, I assume this change is prep for some RoK zone that will require a bunch of unrest-style item manipulations that they don't want trivialized by stealth... though a see-invis mob would do the trick... Or do the devs just not want the Bugbear L&L book available to level 60 soloers? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Freliant

08-31-2007, 04:38 PM

<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote>This has to be a bug... there's puzzles in the game that depend on stealth. How are you supposed to do the simultaneous-level-activation thing in Unrest without stealth? Doing so spawns a pair of ^^^ mobs, doesn't it? Now every Unrest group has to be 2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 DPS with each trio capable of handling a pair of triple-ups?</blockquote>before people saw that these mobs didn't see invis, the way it used to be done was: Simultaneously activate, and get the heck out of there and go to where your group was waiting at the front doors. The tank would get agro, and one set would be killed on one side and then the other set when it got close. Guess it will have to be done again. O, and the change IS on the test notes. Its called widgets... and they said that now it takes time to activate widgets.

liveja

08-31-2007, 04:42 PM

<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote>How are you supposed to do the simultaneous-level-activation thing in Unrest without stealth? </blockquote>I'm not trying to be flippant here, but ... the one time I finished Unrest, we did that step without anyone being stealthed.I wish I could remember exactly what we did, but it wasn't a problem at all. Heck, I can't even remember if I've done it twice. But I do know that I've never seen stealth as necessary for that step.This is not to say I'm defending this change to stealth. However, as a 70 Swashy that has long since learned how to use (abuse???) Stealth, I can say I'm not the least bit surprised to read about it. I very much enjoyed soloing the Bracer Of Thunder quest in SH, simply by stealthing through the zone & picking up the necessary quest items.Some will say, "Well, that's what stealth is for!", & I'm not going to disagree. I'm simply saying that I can understand SOE seeing this as "trivializing" content.

Freliant

08-31-2007, 04:46 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote>How are you supposed to do the simultaneous-level-activation thing in Unrest without stealth? </blockquote>I'm not trying to be flippant here, but ... the one time I finished Unrest, we did that step without anyone being stealthed.I wish I could remember exactly what we did, but it wasn't a problem at all. Heck, I can't even remember if I've done it twice. But I do know that I've never seen stealth as necessary for that step.This is not to say I'm defending this change to stealth. However, as a 70 Swashy that has long since learned how to use (abuse???) Stealth, I can say I'm not the least bit surprised to read about it. I very much enjoyed soloing the Bracer Of Thunder quest in SH, simply by stealthing through the zone & picking up the necessary quest items.Some will say, "Well, that's what stealth is for!", & I'm not going to disagree. I'm simply saying that I can understand SOE seeing this as "trivializing" content.</blockquote>lol see, I told you your IQ was above 100. I guess there are things we can see eye to eye on.

liveja

08-31-2007, 04:49 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess there are things we can see eye to eye on.</blockquote>Just so you know, I oppose this change.Understanding & explaining why it's being made is not the same as supporting it.

Templa

08-31-2007, 04:56 PM

I don't understand the change to the wigets.. why?? you pop out of invis while gathering.. that I understand.. and some quest items are gathered so there are time when you pop out of invis while doing them.. why take it away for all?? it seems to make more sense to have some where you can sneak in and grab the item and get out.. If there are some quest that the devs feel are too easy to gain by invis.. why don't they just change them to gather items instead of the blanket change??

liveja

08-31-2007, 05:04 PM

<cite>Templa wrote:</cite><blockquote>If there are some quest that the devs feel are too easy to gain by invis.. why don't they just change them to gather items instead of the blanket change?? </blockquote>That is, effectively, for all intents & purposes, what they did. Doing so, however, amounts to the "blanket nerf" we're seeing.

Templa

08-31-2007, 05:08 PM

I suppose.. But you would think they would leave it in for some.. especially at the lower levels.. and for quests it's almost implied that you would grab an item while in stealth.. for example there's a quest in Nek that tells you to sneak in and steal a map from a pirate tent.. After you return you are sent to kill said pirates at the tent.. Would seem to me the first part of the quest was created to allow someone to get the map while invis..

liveja

08-31-2007, 05:16 PM

<cite>Templa wrote:</cite><blockquote>Would seem to me the first part of the quest was created to allow someone to get the map while invis.. </blockquote>Having done that quest on my Swashy, stealthed all the way, I entirely agree with you.I understand why they're doing it. I'm not happy about it, tho; I have three Scouts & a Mage, & I've heavily relied upon Stealth & Invis to get places & do things. But I do understand the motive behind the nerf.

Ender has fallen

08-31-2007, 05:59 PM

I understand with the quest items i really do, i dont like it but i understand, but the new notes imply that its ONLY quest items, notice those are the only example...the every day stuff around towns in which you dont invis in is going to annoy me the most, an extra two seconds for no reason at all other than some coder didn't want to take the time to make the stuff in towns not have the cast time.

Lilj

08-31-2007, 06:13 PM

<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote>Since everyone in the game can get invis through easily-available jaguar/chameleon totems, I assume this change is prep for some RoK zone that will require a bunch of unrest-style item manipulations that they don't want trivialized by stealth... though a see-invis mob would do the trick... Or do the devs just not want the Bugbear L&L book available to level 60 soloers? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>There are mobs on the way to that book that can see through invis, you still need to dodge those. And the book itself is in a place where you go uninvis to get it. I know I was able to go visible when I got the book, because I 'called' home from there <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Freliant

08-31-2007, 06:43 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess there are things we can see eye to eye on.</blockquote>Just so you know, I oppose this change.Understanding & explaining why it's being made is not the same as supporting it.</blockquote>You're no fun... as a wizard I liked being able to update some clicky quests by being invis. Harvlave for example is a perfect example. So I never said I was for the change. I just don't like spelling myself out.

madha

08-31-2007, 06:52 PM

This change is to make sure you have to kill every mob by every quest clicky. for instance the sod updates in MMC most of the last parts can be done stealth/invi without killing 30 over powerd chain stunning mobs with group non curable not resistable stuns.. SOE wants you to experiance the glory that is multi mob chain casting stun encounters over and over again. SO when they add that while incombat you cannot progressice clicky items part of quests we can all go play WOW casue that looks like where this change is going.We have allvays been able to clicky quest items stealth aslong as they wernt harvestables. Now all of a sudeen thats a bad thing casue we can skip pointless encounters. Just make every mob see invis and make stealth/invis a way to slow people's movement speed down but not acctualy do anything.Remove this nerf not becasue the way it has been forever was overpowerd, but just to give stealth/invis a purpose in game besides having to be stealth to use certain abilities on mobs that can see stealth anyway.

Lilj

08-31-2007, 06:59 PM

<cite>madhatr wrote:</cite><blockquote>This change is to make sure you have to kill every mob by every quest clickyT. for instance the sod updates in MMC most of the last parts can be done stealth/invi without killing 30 over powerd chain stunning mobs with group non curable not resistable stuns.. SOE wants you to experiance the glory that is multi mob chain casting stun encounters over and over again. SO when they add that while incombat you cannot progressice clicky items part of quests we can all go play WOW casue that looks like where this change is going.We have allvays been able to clicky quest items stealth aslong as they wernt harvestables. Now all of a sudeen thats a bad thing casue we can skip pointless encounters. Just make every mob see invis and make stealth/invis a way to slow people's movement speed down but not acctualy do anything.Remove this nerf not becasue the way it has been forever was overpowerd, but just to give stealth/invis a purpose in game besides having to be stealth to use certain abilities on mobs that can see stealth anyway.</blockquote>You are probably right <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If this change is because of zones in RoK and the fact that invis/stealth will trivialize those new zones, I can't help but think 'then don't make those new zones that way'. That is is better to change new zones we haven't seen yet, than to change something that has been in the game since november 2004.Don't change the old world to accommodate the new world, make it so the new world fits in with the old world.

billit2

08-31-2007, 07:32 PM

I was running thru Splitpaws' Harclave instances the other day-, Lo and behold, ran into this- NOW you have to kill mobs near firepit thingys to use them- and of course this zone has been nerfed to death so no xp to speak of <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

AScarlato

09-01-2007, 12:16 AM

I am not happy to read this. Being a Rogue in eq2 is becoming a fraction of how much fun it was in EQ1. Well, at least while we were necessary to open vital doors and do corpse runs <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Is being able to do a small number of quest steps on my own really that exceedingly overpowering that you need to take this small joy away from me too? I might as well play my templar full time.

Noaani

09-01-2007, 01:21 AM

This was put in the test notes, although it went in a day or so after the change went to test.There is now a 2-second usage delay for using most widgets in the world (i.e. quest widgets). Using the widgets will also unhide you.

Zagbab_Dorfbasher

09-01-2007, 07:02 AM

lol, gotta love the utter butchery of invis.... First of all, most mobs that you actualy want to avoid with stealth see right through it anyways and the only ones you can sneak past are the ones you could kill in an instant anyways. So we can't realy sneak past dangerous encounters, now we can't even pick up items and stuff without breaking invis.... can we open doors at least?????Seriously, is there even a point to stealth any more other than for us to fire off backstabbs? (which in itself is quite annoying since it is constantly breaking either by bugs or AoEs.)Scenario: The group leader, a valiant paladin, asks the sneaky scout in the group to sneak past a couple of guards and steal an item further into a room, but the poor scout can just shake his head and say "Nope sorry, the guards see invis, and even if I could get past them, picking up the item would break sneak and they would attack me."

Iseabeil

09-01-2007, 11:33 AM

<cite>AScarlato wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am not happy to read this. Being a Rogue in eq2 is becoming a fraction of how much fun it was in EQ1. Well, at least while we were necessary to open vital doors and do corpse runs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> Is being able to do a small number of quest steps on my own really that exceedingly overpowering that you need to take this small joy away from me too? I might as well play my templar full time.</blockquote>I used to play a swashie as main... back before DoF, one of the main occassions someone wanted a rogue in their group was their group stealth for Sol eye groups. Then SoE starts giving everyond and their monkey invis abilities, wich naturally trivialized some content, so they added in tons of see invis mobs to the point that the idea of traveling invis to naggy was ludicrious as every second mob around the corner would see you. Now you wont even be able to pick up a weenie L&L book anymore. Fallen Gate is nerve straining zone with the social agro and closely packed mobs unless you have a group able to handle several encounters at one time. The only Zombie L&L is stuffed deep in at the marketplace, wich means you will either need a group or out level the zone to pick up a silly book. I recall quests were you were told to sneak in, pick up somethin and sneak out without being seen (class quest stuff long long ago), and if those still existed, would you be told to sneak in, locate the object, slaughter anyone that could see you, take the object and sneak out?Why not simply remove the entire concept of invis/stealth? If a rogue cant sneak by and pilfer somethin, why would they need to sneak at all?

Zagbab_Dorfbasher

09-01-2007, 11:48 AM

One might think that the intention of "scout" classes was to actually scout ahead, to see what is in store, but that's not gonna happen. Stealth is poorly implemented as is (most mobs that matter see through), will be even worse now. Track is poorly implemented (a completely different issue that I will not go into more than mentioning it hehe). Stat balance is whack for scouts (we don't want more AGI dammit! Give us STR and INT), armor is silly (Why chain, why why why?) and so on./rant off

Captain_Xpendab

09-01-2007, 02:19 PM

I guess SOE has decided to make this a forced grouping game. For some classes that are already weak at soloing, this was one of the few advantages that they had. I've often felt that Developers disliked utilities like invisibility and crowd control and only included it because it's expected in a fantasy game. They want everything to be about bashing mobs heads and any alternative way of getting things done is "bypassing content".

Mercenary

09-01-2007, 05:10 PM

I have not played this game that long I guess but still: in the 7 or so months that I was active I enjoyed and the fact that you could interact with objects while being stealthed. Now they are all of a sudden changing this after the game has been live for many years?Might seem a small thing for some but I really really dislike it when developers change game mechanics just like that and combined with the recent outtages of Splitpaw without any announcements plus copy/paste answers on emails from customer support... well my enthousiasm is slowly fading for this game and its upcoming expansion. I know, perhaps this sounds a bit childish but alas that is how I feel about nerfs like these <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Hope the developers will reconsider this with the current feedback. Just do not understand why they put these nerfs in... perhaps to relax and a "sit back and enjoy the show" kinda thing <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Yojimbo99

09-01-2007, 10:24 PM

This change sucks flat out. One of the best things I like about the rogue classes is the flavor behind them. As was pointed out, when the game was released one of the "becoming a rogue" quest series involved sneaking into a building and grabbing items( at least the Qeynos side).Honestly the scout stealths/invis are about worthless except combat now, and even then that really depends on the scout class in question. If they wanted to control invis/stealth they should do it by changing the mechanics behind all the trivial, easy to get, non class based spells and toys. The scout 'sneaking' should be something that other classes can envy, not reproduce willy-nilly cause they spent 2 gp on the broker. I mean if ever there was an archetype that should be able to sneak into a lair and grab a set of keys from the jailer, or the 'hidden plans' it well should be a scout.

Melciah

09-02-2007, 04:52 AM

MrWolfie

09-02-2007, 08:20 AM

<cite>Mercenary wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have not played this game that long I guess but still: in the 7 or so months that I was active I enjoyed and the fact that you could interact with objects while being stealthed. Now they are all of a sudden changing this after the game has been live for many years?Might seem a small thing for some but I really really dislike it when developers change game mechanics just like that and combined with the recent outtages of Splitpaw without any announcements plus copy/paste answers on emails from customer support... well my enthousiasm is slowly fading for this game and its upcoming expansion. I know, perhaps this sounds a bit childish but alas that is how I feel about nerfs like these <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />Hope the developers will reconsider this with the current feedback. </blockquote>Not at all. I sympathise. It's exactly how I feel about a change that sweeps across all playstyles, all classes, and changes mechanics that people have been using just fine for three years.This change is abominable.The last time a really bad change went live, that severely affected my partner's and my enjoyment of EQ2 (when social aggro caused massive trains being dumped on small groups working their way thru dungeons), I cancelled our subscriptions and didn't come back until some time after modifications were made to stop mobs peeling off.If this change goes live, I won't hesitate to vote with my feet and cancel my accounts. Of course, I don't *want* to, but sometimes it's necessary ~ they might not miss my two accounts, but I'm confident I won't be the only one. There'll be plenty of people who don't use the test server and don't read the boards who will be outraged at a change like this ~ it's a shame that it's unlikely that SOE will act on the feedback here and will just suffer a bigger backlash when it goes live.What really is mindbogglng, is that someone thought they could get away with a change like this without the nearly whole playerbase reacting badly! Just mindboggling...

MrWolfie

09-02-2007, 08:47 AM

Notes from Developer brainstorming session:Dev 1: "I know, let's change all the widgets in the game so that they break invis!"Dev 2: "Yeah, I like it. Players have been complaining this game is too easy. That'll show 'em we mean business."Dev 1: "heh heh"Dev 3: "You wimps! You should put a casting timer on the widgets too!"Dev 2: "Ooh, severe!"Dev 1: "heh heh"Dev 3: "What's next on the agenda?"Dev 2: "Seems too many people are excited about the appearance changes we're putting in..."...at least I haven't lost my sense of humour.

Tremelle

09-02-2007, 08:59 AM

Yeah, I noticed this a couple days ago, when I was grabbing an L&L on test. The delay is super short, but I wondering if it possable to get interrupted. But I guessing this was an off the wall stealth nerf.

Erithe

09-02-2007, 06:24 PM

Considering all the protests this single Test update is spawning on test, I'm thinking that between the stealth nerf, the click nerf, the appearance nerf and the rest is going to lose players.

Guy De Alsace

09-03-2007, 12:34 AM

I reckon they have a "fun-o-meter" that records when people are having too much fun so they can shove in a totally unwanted gamewide nerf for absolutely no reason. Seriously, why bother having stealth at all? There's already lots of quests in the game that state specifically that you need to be sneaky to get something done yet they slapped mobs with marconi stealth radars in willy nilly and now are effectively removing any utility stealth had in finishing quests. To get to the item you need to steal, you have to kill whatever is guarding it - not to mention all the mobs on the way in and on the way out. In my view - thats hardly sneaky really. Has anyone got a positive feedback for this? Or is this another un-asked for serious gamewide change that is going in anyway, like it or not - like social aggro.

kartikeya

09-03-2007, 02:53 AM

Stealth really does need an overall. To all the folks asking what point stealth actually has beyond combat arts? None. Not really. Oh sure, I can get through an overland zone with it, but y'know, I can do that with a fast horse and defensive stance too. Changes like this wouldn't annoy me nearly so much if I, as a scout, could actually do my job description. Fighters fight, mages cast spells, priests heal...scouts? Uh. We poke things with pointy things a lot. I would love to be able to actually scout ahead, as my title implies. Heck, no need to make it brainless. There are some areas in the game where you can stealth quite a ways if you're patient and clever about it, where most of the mobs can't see you, but the occasional wandering one can. If dungeons were like that, and stealth actually meant something, I wouldn't care a whit if I couldn't go about collecting the odd quest widget.

Iseabeil

09-03-2007, 04:39 AM

<cite>kartikeya wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stealth really does need an overall. To all the folks asking what point stealth actually has beyond combat arts? None. Not really. Oh sure, I can get through an overland zone with it, but y'know, I can do that with a fast horse and defensive stance too. Changes like this wouldn't annoy me nearly so much if I, as a scout, could actually do my job description. Fighters fight, mages cast spells, priests heal...scouts? Uh. We poke things with pointy things a lot. I would love to be able to actually scout ahead, as my title implies. Heck, no need to make it brainless. There are some areas in the game where you can stealth quite a ways if you're patient and clever about it, where most of the mobs can't see you, but the occasional wandering one can. If dungeons were like that, and stealth actually meant something, I wouldn't care a whit if I couldn't go about collecting the odd quest widget. </blockquote>The problem is that any are you'd want to scout ahead is better done by a monk or a bruiser as they can run full speed, when they start take heavy damage or train is too big, FD. There isnt gonna be a random mob here and there that are see-FD. Either it works or it dont, and at lvl 70 with M1 its very rare they will fail. Toss on a 45% SoW or whatever and he's gonna do it real fast whilst an inviser will move at 0% speed and have to stop or detour frequently when they encounter see invis mobs, and heaven forbid they miss seeing one and get slaughtered. Dont get me wrong, I have my own 70 monk with M1 FD and all, and I love the use it has, but it do remove the use of scouts to scout as there are better ways. Id guess the main reason to keep it would be to annoy scouts that have to sneak for some attacks, I know Id prefer if all my 'sneak only' were changed to say, behind only or something. *sighs*

kartikeya

09-03-2007, 04:47 AM

*laughs* Yeah, I know. Don't get me started on FD. Or on how brawlers can farm shinies in places like MMC or Unrest (chock full of see invis mobs, of course). Or how this change isn't likely to affect brawlers still being able to feign flop their way through clicky quests.I certainly don't want FD nerfed, but it IS annoying.

Mercenary

09-04-2007, 12:30 PM

No one else upset by this? Lots of responses to the appearance slot changes but not many players seem to object to this change?Well no more Splitpaw for me then if this goes live. The quest reward was worth the time (going through stealthed killing only a few groups):combat exp is bad in there.

einar4

09-04-2007, 12:36 PM

<cite>Mercenary wrote:</cite><blockquote>No one else upset by this? Lots of responses to the appearance slot changes but not many players seem to object to this change?</blockquote> There is just so much about this update for people to be upset over, I think most everyone is just having trouble spreading out their displeasure between all the issues <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> This is kind of reminiscent of the pre-Kunark days of EQ1. The dev seemed to relish making changes that would annoy the players, then a certain community relations person would tell the players they were stupid and short sighted for not appreciating the l33t wisdom of the developers.

Galeden

09-04-2007, 12:52 PM

Not sure it was answered directly or not, but inspecting IS interuptable, just like harvesting, it stops the minute you pick up an agro. So you cannot even charge in and grab something quick before you die.

Frigid2000

09-04-2007, 02:04 PM

Yeah, there are a number of changes in these update notes that just make me shake my head. And being a troub, the stealth change is the worst. I just get a headache thinking about it.I know there was a red post about "not everything on test makes it in.." but I don't think I've seen that happen yet. Especially if it's part of the GU update notes.I don't know who is making the decisions for the changes of these, but it's just not smart at all.Sadly, no matter how many posts are going to be put up, this will still go in. I just know it.

Lindar Phamoncry

09-04-2007, 03:12 PM

I'm with Cycue with this one... as a Dirge this change would be devastating.I already have a hard enough time completing many of the "solo-able" quests... quests that were made easier due to stealth was our compensation for not being able to outright kill the mobs. Having to ask for help on solo quests is [Removed for Content] near the only problem I have with this game.Classes that can charm or fd would be the only ones with an advantage... due to the social changes its not like fearing them off of the node is even an option. Utility ftw right?Take invis totems out of the game so that not everyone can invis and even the playing fieldEither that or get rid of widgets all together and just make everything a drop... because in essence thats the fairest option I can think of.Time for us all to re-roll as necros?

Oakum

09-04-2007, 03:49 PM

<cite>Yojimbo99 wrote:</cite><blockquote>This change sucks flat out. One of the best things I like about the rogue classes is the flavor behind them. As was pointed out, when the game was released one of the "becoming a rogue" quest series involved sneaking into a building and grabbing items( at least the Qeynos side).Honestly the scout stealths/invis are about worthless except combat now, and even then that really depends on the scout class in question. If they wanted to control invis/stealth they should do it by changing the mechanics behind all the trivial, easy to get, non class based spells and toys. The scout 'sneaking' should be something that other classes can envy, not reproduce willy-nilly cause they spent 2 gp on the broker. I mean if ever there was an archetype that should be able to sneak into a lair and grab a set of keys from the jailer, or the 'hidden plans' it well should be a scout. </blockquote>You forgot the invis side. The invis/stealth portion was mostly ruined by groups running invis/stealth from named mob to named mob farming them for masters. That was when the see invis/stealth mobs were added to make it much harder to take all the named from those who had to fight their way around. In short you can thank the people using group stealth/invis to farm names for the past change, not a desire to nerf scout/monk/mage/fury spells/skills to worthlessness for the see invis mobs. This just sounds like it is to make people with invis to be equal to people without invis for quests and to make players fight the mobs that the quest items were put by (probably so they would have to be fought). I don't mind the concept but am too used to having it easy with a totem to really want the change myself. I will adjust however, just like always. Now to the part about scouts should be the only ones with stealth. You obviously forgot about mage invis, ect. Saying that only scouts should have a certain skill is like saying only healers should be able to heal period with no other classes or potions or items doing any healing at all. EQ2 does not work that way. Nor should it. It would make it less fun.Besides, totems are are not the same as invis/stealth anyway. They have a longer casting time which is important when it comes to farming shiny's in Kaladim or anywhere quick recast is necessary. I have seen scouts and mages uninvis, pick up a shiny, and reinvis there before the roamers came back close enough to aggro where as I would have been aggro'ed before the timer was up on the totem.

Vydar

09-04-2007, 03:56 PM

I'm completely against this change.I'm assuming it effects doors, too?So... what's the point of a scout again? To run up ahead and check and then report findings to the rest of his group... ANYONE can stealth or invis. Totems, city items, class abilities make this possible. Why would anyone want this change? Now I have a casting timer to use clickies? To open a door? To click a quest item chest? What is the point of this?

Magic

09-04-2007, 03:56 PM

August 30 2007 test update notes: "There is now a 2-second usage delay for using most widgets in the world (i.e. quest widgets). Using the widgets will also unhide you."Oh well, another change means another strategy adjustment.Edit: Doors don't seem to be affected by this change. I open them while not inviz or stealthed and there's no timer, they open instantly. Anything that starts a timer will probably unhide you.

Skua

09-04-2007, 04:17 PM

this change SUX , [Removed for Content] SOE [Removed for Content]!!!!!come on get rid of stealth / invis already is pointless.....cant sneak throw mobs because see invis / stealth , cant get quest doneOMG NOW I WILL GROUP FOR WHATEVER QUEST THAT NEED A CLICKY ITEM? -channel 60-60 - LFG for lame quest , 1h of run just to click a paper in the last floor of XXX instance....... PST lots of deaths and debt!gez ROK will sux hard

Yojimbo99

09-04-2007, 05:38 PM

<cite>Oakum wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Yojimbo99 wrote:</cite><blockquote>This change sucks flat out. One of the best things I like about the rogue classes is the flavor behind them. As was pointed out, when the game was released one of the "becoming a rogue" quest series involved sneaking into a building and grabbing items( at least the Qeynos side).Honestly the scout stealths/invis are about worthless except combat now, and even then that really depends on the scout class in question. If they wanted to control invis/stealth they should do it by changing the mechanics behind all the trivial, easy to get, non class based spells and toys. The scout 'sneaking' should be something that other classes can envy, not reproduce willy-nilly cause they spent 2 gp on the broker. I mean if ever there was an archetype that should be able to sneak into a lair and grab a set of keys from the jailer, or the 'hidden plans' it well should be a scout. </blockquote>You forgot the invis side. The invis/stealth portion was mostly ruined by groups running invis/stealth from named mob to named mob farming them for masters. That was when the see invis/stealth mobs were added to make it much harder to take all the named from those who had to fight their way around. In short you can thank the people using group stealth/invis to farm names for the past change, not a desire to nerf scout/monk/mage/fury spells/skills to worthlessness for the see invis mobs. This just sounds like it is to make people with invis to be equal to people without invis for quests and to make players fight the mobs that the quest items were put by (probably so they would have to be fought). I don't mind the concept but am too used to having it easy with a totem to really want the change myself. I will adjust however, just like always. Now to the part about scouts should be the only ones with stealth. You obviously forgot about mage invis, ect. Saying that only scouts should have a certain skill is like saying only healers should be able to heal period with no other classes or potions or items doing any healing at all. EQ2 does not work that way. Nor should it. It would make it less fun.Besides, totems are are not the same as invis/stealth anyway. They have a longer casting time which is important when it comes to farming shiny's in Kaladim or anywhere quick recast is necessary. I have seen scouts and mages uninvis, pick up a shiny, and reinvis there before the roamers came back close enough to aggro where as I would have been aggro'ed before the timer was up on the totem. </blockquote>I never said scouts should be the only classes with invis/stealth( although rogues are the only class with a set stealth ability that I am aware of) and I am sorry you read it that way. Nor did I forget about mage invis of which I have no bone to pick. I do however think there should be an established heirarchy of stealth and invis with scouts on top of the heap and as of right now I think the mage invis fits rather nicely into its own niche in that kinda system. As far as I know mage invis is single target and of a much shorter druration then scouts invis/stealth, that allows a mages to do their invis thing and yet not trivialize what scouts should be masters of. Even the monk invis is put in check with a power drain on it and alot monks will tell you that because of that it is better to use totems( or just flop ). Its the totems mostly that screw the system up, imo they need some adjustment either by making them have a greater chance to be seen through, upping the recast on them and by increasing the cast times on them.Another way to deal with it would be to grant stealth to all scouts and make it mechanically function differently then invis for the purpose of interacting with 'widgets' .

Flara

09-04-2007, 05:45 PM

I want to go on record as saying that I HATE this change! I hate it for so many reasons! It adds unnecessary tedium to the game. It makes you wait unnecessarily. We already contend with lag, spawn times, and assorted other things. We don't need to increase the tedium with a two-second interaction timer!It forces you to find groups for trivial little updates. It's hard enough to find groups for important things. Hanging around waiting to find a group to do trivial quest steps is BORING. When people get bored and frustrated, they leave! Another reason I hate it is because some classes will still be able to do the step, even if means they have to die to get the update, while other classes won't be able to do it at all without a group to clear the area. If some classes can still do it solo, what is the point of making the change?If you can't attempt or complete the widget gathering when you've got aggro, the classes who have pets will have an advantage that the classes without pets don't have. The conjuror-necro-petclass-type classes will collect the widget item without being interrupted, because their pet will take the aggro long enough for the harvest to complete. If you can interact with the widget while you have aggro, and only need enough time to complete the gather before being interrupted, then tank classes that can take more of a pounding will have an advantage in more time to get their update than other classes who can't take the beating.I'm not complaining about class differences. The point I'm trying to make is, if one class has an advantage that makes it possible for them to do this solo, why should SOE put this into the game at all? What is the point? I can see many reasons for this being a very bad change, and virtually none for it being a good one. As many people have already remarked, if it's for something in the upcoming expansion, then change the expansion, not the rest of the game!

kartikeya

09-04-2007, 06:02 PM

Actually, a while back they made stealth and invis entirely seperate. They function the same, for the most part, and mobs that see invis almost ALWAYS also see stealth, but they're a seperate mechanic now (example: for some insane reason, rangers have a see invis component on their stealth, rather than a see stealth component. So I can see any invised mage, but I can't see fellow scouts unless I use a totem or the tinkered goggles). I always thought they were going to do more with this, but they never have. One would think it wouldn't be that hard to make a lot of mobs see invis, while not seeing stealth.

Armawk

09-04-2007, 06:09 PM

<cite>kartikeya wrote:</cite><blockquote>One would think it wouldn't be that hard to make a lot of mobs see invis, while not seeing stealth.</blockquote>They would also have to make a lot see stealth and not invis.. and it would complicate so many other things I cant see it working. for players or level designers.

Dreyco

09-04-2007, 06:12 PM

The functionality of Stealth is Multi-Fold.1.) To Be able to Sneak Through groups of monsters (or players on a PVP server) unseen, and get to your destination without having to fight.2.) To be able to launch stealth based attacks.3.) To be able to acquire quest objects without being seen.Right now, the biggest functionally used aspect of stealth is number one, so it isn't impacting stealth to the point that it's "Not functional anymore".I will agree, however, that this is a sudden blow to scouts, as we have all been used to handling quests in this one way. Will we adjust? Yeah. Was this necessary? No. There are other ways to prevent a stealthed user from getting to a quest item. Put a bunch of see invis mobs in front of it, and presto, no more stealth.

Yojimbo99

09-04-2007, 06:20 PM

<cite>kartikeya wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually, a while back they made stealth and invis entirely seperate. They function the same, for the most part, and mobs that see invis almost ALWAYS also see stealth, but they're a seperate mechanic now (example: for some insane reason, rangers have a see invis component on their stealth, rather than a see stealth component. So I can see any invised mage, but I can't see fellow scouts unless I use a totem or the tinkered goggles). I always thought they were going to do more with this, but they never have. One would think it wouldn't be that hard to make a lot of mobs see invis, while not seeing stealth.</blockquote>Thanks for the info, I wasn't sure about the other scouts having stealth, I was under the misguided notion that preds/bards had a form of invis. And you are absolutley spot on about there being almost no difference in mobs ability to see through either one. I have gotten lucky and been able to smuggle a group in SoS for example when in the rare event the mobs up in the place can see invis but not stealth. This is where the focus should be for determining who can interact with widgets while concealed. So allow scouts' Stealth to not break and invis can have a "harvesting" time and what I meant by making them function differently( as oppsed to the almost zero difference there is now). And get rid of the jaguar stealth totems. ( well this could be a can of worms for pvp servers but the rulesets can be adjusted for their own unique problems seperatly)

eq2john

09-04-2007, 07:57 PM

If this ever goes live it will be an awful change.What is so wrong with being able to accomplish a task on your own at times, using the skills provided by your class? If it comes to pass that we now need small groups to accomplish even the most mundane tasks, and class skills are no longer any help, then I'm just going to ignore that content anyway - which kind of defeats the point that the devs seem to be striving for.Far from making me want to battle through, just for a megre clicky item, I will not go anywhere near it. Lots of risk, no reward, heaps of hassle? No thanks.I hate it when MMOs go off on these purges, cutting off alternative means to accomplish the same task; it all seems out of spite, just to follow the cookie cutter vision.I'll be avoiding far more content if this goes through than if the devs just left it alone!

Guy De Alsace

09-05-2007, 08:35 AM

I was thinking the other day about quests this will impact. I thought of the Somborn Weapon's Crate quest in Loping Plains. With this change you will need to completely wipe out all the mobs in the B*mmer Gang camps where there are crates as well as upwards of 15 or more Gremlins. For high damage people this will probably be possible (hard luck you people who need these mobs for quests). What about a Templar that takes an age to kill anything and cannot stealth anyway? I find it highly unlikely that a Templar can kill ALL the mobs at the camp before they respawn. Another one - stealing the thexian plans in Lfay. The mobs guarding it are very aggressive, social mobs that respawn very very fast. This means that quest is pretty much impossible to solo for a low dps class since mobs repop much quicker than you can kill them. That quest is part of a line too, this change will drastically affect that questline for some classes.Poorly thought out. No comment from devs either...real shame.

Ascillian

09-05-2007, 08:56 AM

This change also affects people who don't have innate stealth. I know a lot of people who use stealth totems to grab updates. With all the see invis mobs in the game, one of the prime reasons to use a stealth item is to sneak in and grab a quest update.If there are specific quests or items that we should not be able to 'easily' get then it seems to me the easy way to fix this would be to either make those specific items have a harvest time or to put a see invis 'guard' right next to them. That would still enable people to get many of the quest starters and things that a lot of us go out and grab solo (like lore and legend books) but not trivialize the harder quests that are intended to be done in groups.

Yojimbo99

09-05-2007, 01:07 PM

<cite>Ascillian wrote:</cite><blockquote>This change also affects people who don't have innate stealth. I know a lot of people who use stealth totems to grab updates. With all the see invis mobs in the game, one of the prime reasons to use a stealth item is to sneak in and grab a quest update.If there are specific quests or items that we should not be able to 'easily' get then it seems to me the easy way to fix this would be to either make those specific items have a harvest time or to put a see invis 'guard' right next to them. That would still enable people to get many of the quest starters and things that a lot of us go out and grab solo (like lore and legend books) but not trivialize the harder quests that are intended to be done in groups.</blockquote>It should change the game for people who do not have innate stealth. That is the whole problem with stealth as it is now, it is so easy to reproduce by everyone. The totems that grant stealth and invis are so close to reproducing the effects of what scouts can do its a joke atm. I dont see cure or heal potions coming close to what a templar can do nor do I see "taunt" potions. The availablity of easy to get and fast recasting invis /stealth potions has made a complete mockery of what scouts should had been masters of.I still stand by allowing Stealthed scouts to interact with objects and have invis on a completely different field when it comes to widgets. This allows scouts to maintain a useful skill and keeps with lore while still allowing all the other classes to shuffle across overland zones to advoid mobs and such.I remember in a time long ago now that it was great to have a scout in your group in a place even as mudane as RoV actually 'scouting ' ahead to look for both mobs and other players. I want that back and more so, scouts are relegated to nothign more than back stabbers in this game as it is, soe needs to have them do more, throw out some traps or something making scouting viable and in some cases needed. Right now scouts are not scouts, just melee damage or debuff/buff bots lets get some lore in there.

liveja

09-05-2007, 01:14 PM

<cite>Yojimbo99 wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is the whole problem with stealth as it is now, it is so easy to reproduce by everyone. </blockquote>Since I'm a Swashy & don't need those totems, I know nothing of them, so forgive me for my lack of knowledge, but ...Can any of those totems reproduce the 12-hour time limit I have with Stealth? I can stealth in most places of the game world, walk away from my keyboard, have lunch, write a letter, have a smoke, & come back a couple hours later, safe & sound. I guarantee that the 10-minute limit my Mage has with Invisibility won't do any such thing.

Yojimbo99

09-05-2007, 01:30 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Yojimbo99 wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is the whole problem with stealth as it is now, it is so easy to reproduce by everyone. </blockquote>Since I'm a Swashy & don't need those totems, I know nothing of them, so forgive me for my lack of knowledge, but ...Can any of those totems reproduce the 12-hour time limit I have with Stealth? I can stealth in most places of the game world, walk away from my keyboard, have lunch, write a letter, have a smoke, & come back a couple hours later, safe & sound. I guarantee that the 10-minute limit my Mage has with Invisibility won't do any such thing.</blockquote>They are either 10 or 15 min timers, but comparing them to your conviant way to afk and make hotpockets( i do it as well when on my brig) is not a valid. You could had camped in most cases and done the same thing. The timer on them is long enough to allow anyone to totem up and get just about anywhere that a scout can on a 12 hr timer. The recast on them is short enough to allow finding a hidden spot or a safe area and recast the totem .

liveja

09-05-2007, 01:43 PM

<cite>Yojimbo99 wrote:</cite><blockquote>You could had camped in most cases and done the same thing.</blockquote>Sure I could, & on my non-stealthed characters, I do. But my Swashy doesn't have to, & as you say, "in most cases", which means that the camp-out-&-make-hot-pockets isn't always feasible. But with Stealth, it's about 99% worry free.Farming shinies in Kaladim is much easier with 12-hour Stealth than with 10/15-minute timers, so it's not just a "I can go make hot pockets" thing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I'm not posting this to defend the change, which I dislike greatly. I'm posting it to point out that totems are not as good as Stealth.BTW, a serious concern I've not yet seen answered ... are mob-dropped chests & lootable mob bodies considered "widgets"? Will disarming a trap un-hide me, or looting a chest or body? I'd be flabbergasted if so, & very, very irritated. The quest items being turned into widgets is bad enough, tho I can kinda-sorta understand why they're doing it -- not happy, but at least I understand it. But if looting un-hides you too, I'll be very unhappy.

Armawk

09-05-2007, 01:45 PM

They are a huge pita in comparison to actual stealth OR invis. Short, limited charges, cost money every single time you invis (and be honest with a typical 4 hour session on a scout or mage that could be 50 or more charges) and like everything else you sometimes forget and run out and end up in a hard place.I play both invis, stealth and totem using classes and on the totem users its a pain.

Yojimbo99

09-05-2007, 02:06 PM

I am not saying totems are indectical to calss abilities, but for the the prupose of interacting with widgets they are in every way shape or form. Yes they cost money but not much when you are considering a lvl 70( and soon to be lvl 80). They are able to sneak past all things scouts can and still allow players currently to interact with the same things scouts can; and this to me is an issue. I perosnally think non-class invis/stealth should have a further divide between them because as I see it they do not at the moment.I use totems on my guardian all the time and really they are not that far behind in comparision of what my brig can get done. I can use a totem and get to the same spots either by pure invis or running a stepping stone pattern ( using climbable walls, training mobs past their leash points or safe areas to recast). You buy them in bulk drag the totem icon to your hotbar and now you have invis/stealth( I carry both which gives the option of either stealth or invis), and hell they work better then smuggle that alone should be a clue to something being wrong. There is zero difference between a lvl 30ish totem and a lvl 70 scout as far as what mobs can see through it /boggle or as to what you can use as far as widgets.

liveja

09-05-2007, 02:24 PM

<cite>Yojimbo99 wrote:</cite><blockquote>They are able to sneak past all things scouts can and still allow players currently to interact with the same things scouts can; and this to me is an issue. </blockquote>/shrug It's not an issue to me at all. I've never cared that people can use totems to mimic Stealth.

Magic

09-05-2007, 03:09 PM

I see two possible reasons for making this change. Opening a crate or pulling out a book should create a sound that would attract the attention of nearby aggro mobs. These actions should take time to perform.But since launch we've become used to it as it was before. This change is significant.

Armawk

09-05-2007, 03:11 PM

<cite>Yojimbo99 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am not saying totems are indectical to calss abilities, but for the the prupose of interacting with widgets they are in every way shape or form. Yes they cost money but not much when you are considering a lvl 70( and soon to be lvl 80). They are able to sneak past all things scouts can and still allow players currently to interact with the same things scouts can; and this to me is an issue. I perosnally think non-class invis/stealth should have a further divide between them because as I see it they do not at the moment.</blockquote>I think we are drifting way off topic here, but I assume you also insist on no magical effects being available to non mages, no healing to non priests etc? so all potions out of the game, all proc effects etc gone?

Rast

09-05-2007, 03:16 PM

My main alt is a brigand, I'm a rogue, a thief. I should be able to manipulate objects and remain hidden. It is my bloody job, for goodness sakes.I don't think there is enough difference in the stealths, IMO.Rogues should have the ability to manipulate things while in stealth, but have the current limitations on what sees through stealthPredators should be able to sneak past ANYTHING in the game (and I do mean anything) but not have the ability to manipulate things in stealthTotems shouldn't work for half the mobs they do now, how can anyone even pretend to stealth while wearing plate? As someone once told me, you are a paladin, they broke your sneaking bone during initiation.Mage invis should be able to sneak around scouts, but not magical classes (ie, they sense the magical disturbance). This would allow different classes with different abilities to have different feels and different roles.

Armawk

09-05-2007, 03:19 PM

But it would simply extend the current "easy mode/hard mode" section of the game from sub level 30 to the entire game.If you have stealth/invis the game is hugely easier then if you dont have it. Like a different game. Of course if we can also make the classes who lose stealthing hugely (and I mean hugely) better equipped to fight and defend themselves then we might be talking.But the structural change would be huge.

Dreyco

09-05-2007, 03:55 PM

<cite>Magical wrote:</cite><blockquote>I see two possible reasons for making this change. Opening a crate or pulling out a book should create a sound that would attract the attention of nearby aggro mobs. These actions should take time to perform.But since launch we've become used to it as it was before. This change is significant.</blockquote>Excellent. Well said. The severity of this change falls down to the fact that the many of us who play scout classes have become accustomed to performing certain tasks a certain way. While a new player will be able to pick up the game and not notice a difference, as that is 'just the way things are', those of us who have been collecting quest items from the start using stealth will now have to change the means that we accomplish our ends. And for the record, that's a lot of change, as many of us are very used to getting things done the way that it's been since launch.

Sapphirius

09-05-2007, 04:00 PM

<cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was thinking the other day about quests this will impact. I thought of the Somborn Weapon's Crate quest in Loping Plains. With this change you will need to completely wipe out all the mobs in the B*mmer Gang camps where there are crates as well as upwards of 15 or more Gremlins. For high damage people this will probably be possible (hard luck you people who need these mobs for quests). What about a Templar that takes an age to kill anything and cannot stealth anyway? I find it highly unlikely that a Templar can kill ALL the mobs at the camp before they respawn. Another one - stealing the thexian plans in Lfay. The mobs guarding it are very aggressive, social mobs that respawn very very fast. This means that quest is pretty much impossible to solo for a low dps class since mobs repop much quicker than you can kill them. That quest is part of a line too, this change will drastically affect that questline for some classes.Poorly thought out. No comment from devs either...real shame. </blockquote>I have a warden specced entirely for raiding. Her damage is nothing short of pathetic. In fact, I never upgraded her nukes because I rarely ever use them. When I did these particular quests. I did just that. I cleared what I needed out of the way out. If I could do these quest lines on a healing-centric warden with cruddy nukes and pathetic damage wearing leather so that I have less mitigation than a plate-armored templar and with no invis at all, then I'm sure that a templar or another low dps character can as well. BTW, I like another player's suggestion of interacting with items causing a sound or something that would alert nearby mobs.

Prrasha

09-05-2007, 05:13 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote> I have a warden specced entirely for raiding. Her damage is nothing short of pathetic. In fact, I never upgraded her nukes because I rarely ever use them. When I did these particular quests. I did just that. I cleared what I needed out of the way out. If I could do these quest lines on a healing-centric warden with cruddy nukes and pathetic damage wearing leather so that I have less mitigation than a plate-armored templar and with no invis at all, then I'm sure that a templar or another low dps character can as well. BTW, I like another player's suggestion of interacting with items causing a sound or something that would alert nearby mobs.</blockquote>I propose that a raid-geared character of any spec is probably not a good example to use to say solo questlines are balanced.And with wolfform + low-grade-raided leather, you probably have mastercrafted-plate-level mitigation stacked on leather-wearer base avoidance, making you take less damage in melee than a small-group-type templar. (I know my warden's my best-tanking healer, between avoid + miti + fast, less-interruptible spellcasts.)

Sapphirius

09-05-2007, 05:30 PM

<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have a warden specced entirely for raiding. Her damage is nothing short of pathetic. In fact, I never upgraded her nukes because I rarely ever use them. When I did these particular quests. I did just that. I cleared what I needed out of the way out. If I could do these quest lines on a healing-centric warden with cruddy nukes and pathetic damage wearing leather so that I have less mitigation than a plate-armored templar and with no invis at all, then I'm sure that a templar or another low dps character can as well. BTW, I like another player's suggestion of interacting with items causing a sound or something that would alert nearby mobs.</blockquote>I propose that a raid-geared character of any spec is probably not a good example to use to say solo questlines are balanced.And with wolfform + low-grade-raided leather, you probably have mastercrafted-plate-level mitigation stacked on leather-wearer base avoidance, making you take less damage in melee than a small-group-type templar. (I know my warden's my best-tanking healer, between avoid + miti + fast, less-interruptible spellcasts.)</blockquote>Except that I haven't said she's raid geared, only raid specced. <smiles> In fact, most of her gear is legendary items acquirable by any player in normal every day groups. My monk is my main raiding character. BTW, my inquis is a far better tanking healer than my warden and does more damage as well. She's only in treasured plate and jewelry.The point (which you are completely ignoring) being that people are already doing all of these quests, and doing them without the benefits of invis and stealth at that.Using a templar as your example of how this change is going to hurt the player base and low DPS classes is faulty reasoning because stealth and invis are not part of a templar's arsenal of spells. This change will specifically affect scouts and mages who used stealth and invis to reach their updates without having to fight through tons of mobs, and unless you want people (like me) correcting you on your examples, you may wish to keep them to the players that it will directly affect. Those would be the ones who don't have to pay 5g per chameleon totem so they can sneak around the game.

MrWolfie

09-06-2007, 09:33 AM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not posting this to defend the change, which I dislike greatly. I'm posting it to point out that totems are not as good as Stealth.BTW, a serious concern I've not yet seen answered ... are mob-dropped chests & lootable mob bodies considered "widgets"? Will disarming a trap un-hide me, or looting a chest or body? I'd be flabbergasted if so, & very, very irritated. The quest items being turned into widgets is bad enough, tho I can kinda-sorta understand why they're doing it -- not happy, but at least I understand it. But if looting un-hides you too, I'll be very unhappy.</blockquote>You and me too. I have an unburgeoning dislike of this alteration which will result in my leaving the game if it goes live; there are some changes which, imo, are a step too far. And while I agree that totems aren't as good as stealth, or even invis, it would seem that their main usefulness is in collecting these widgets ~ making this change one that impacts the saleability of those items and a direct attack on the woodworkers of Norrath, not withstanding a direct nerf to all casters and scouts. (I'm not a woodworker, btw).I don't understand why a change like this has to be made. I don't understand why it's so lazy a solution to whatever the problem was ~ certainly there's no need for writ tables to have timers, or teleporters in Neriak. There's no need to change the world as it has been for three years, but if a certain quest requires you to pick something up, and clear a path to/around the item ~ then that one object could simply be made harvestable.To suddenly nerf everyone who comes after, all your alts, all new players, all casual players, soloers, duos and small groups (who by their very nature are never the first players to quest objects) seems extremely unfair and unwarranted. Especially when the effects of this change and who it affects are spelled out.Let me reiterate; who is affected by this change:All Alts. All new players. All casual players. All soloers. All duos. All trios. All casual players. All returning players. All woodworkers. All scouts. All mages and sorcerors. All enchanters and all group invisers. Anyone who has ever purchased a totem.Before a change like this is made, someone needs to take a very, very hard look at the players who will be affected by it. At the sheer amount of negativity it will generate, and then scrap it in favor of a more graceful solution.It's very simple: it's been FINE for three years, any NEW stuff that requires people to unstealth to collect should be harvestable.

Guy De Alsace

09-06-2007, 09:57 AM

I still maintain that although in some cases it would be logical to assume a stealth character cannot gain an item without alerting an enemy, the game from the outset has been designed so any stealthed character can do just that.Now - a blanket change comes along that almost certainly will see no correlating change to the quests or areas it pertains to. I dont mind a change in principle if it seems reasonable enough but in past experience it just never translates beyond a blanket rule change.One LU isnt enough to change details on over 3,000 quests so this will "go live" as is.

MrWolfie

09-06-2007, 10:17 AM

<cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite><blockquote>I still maintain that although in some cases it would be logical to assume a stealth character cannot gain an item without alerting an enemy, the game from the outset has been designed so any stealthed character can do just that.And you never heard of people being burgled while they were in the buildng at the same time? It's not entirely logical to assume that because there are guards, something is protected. Guards become complacent, and generally, if they can't see something then it doesn't exist. Not to mention, that stealth includes a "move silent" component. Negotiating a room and snaffling a book or trinket without being seen OR heard is exactly what this skill encompasses. Avoiding the people who are paying attention (those who can "see" stealth) is the player's challenge.Now - a blanket change comes along that almost certainly will see no correlating change to the quests or areas it pertains to. I dont mind a change in principle if it seems reasonable enough but in past experience it just never translates beyond a blanket rule change.One LU isnt enough to change details on over 3,000 quests so this will "go live" as is. And 3,000 quests do not need this change. They were fine before ~ what's changed? I know what you're saying, and you're assuming that all our feedback here will go unnoticed and unheeded. I sure hope that doesn't happen. For the game's sake as much for my own.</blockquote>

Bramwe

09-06-2007, 11:12 AM

The longer this game exists the more every class seems to have the same abilities. They keep taking the individuality out of the classes... I like classes having very specific abilities that other classes cannot have. It is like this game is going backwards <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" /> Why don't they just merge every class into the 4 archetypes and quit with the huge changes every couple months. I hope EQ3 gets back to more of what was in EQ1. At least the way EQ1 was in November of 2004. I don't know what it has evolved into now.

Rast

09-06-2007, 12:32 PM

heck, why not just remove stealth after this? It will be practically worthless as a skill, short of being required by assassins and rangers to do some of the combat arts.With the increase in the number of mobs that can see through invis, with the decrease in the things you can do while stealthed, why even have it anymore if you can't actually use it to sneak.The way i see it, is because too many people had abilities they shouldn't of had (ie, totems), the scouts get one of their premier abilities nerfed into oblivion.This change should only effect those who are using a totem, not those who are rightfully have the class ability.

Sapphirius

09-06-2007, 12:37 PM

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>The way i see it, is because too many people had abilities they shouldn't of had (ie, totems), the scouts get one of their premier abilities nerfed into oblivion.This change should only effect those who are using a totem, not those who are rightfully have the class ability.</blockquote>Now this statement I will agree with.

Arthire

09-06-2007, 01:05 PM

FYI, The mirrors in Poets Palace also fall into this category.. a 2 second, intterupptable casting time. And the silen sentinels like to interrupt. A lot. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Sapphirius

09-06-2007, 01:08 PM

<cite>Arty@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>FYI, The mirrors in Poets Palace also fall into this category.. a 2 second, intterupptable casting time. And the silen sentinels like to interrupt. A lot. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Yeowch!

Yojimbo99

09-06-2007, 03:52 PM

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think we are drifting way off topic here, but I assume you also insist on no magical effects being available to non mages, no healing to non priests etc? so all potions out of the game, all proc effects etc gone?</blockquote>That would be a wild and off base assumption then, and so far from anything that I would insist on that I can not even begin to go into detail.

Armawk

09-06-2007, 04:39 PM

<cite>Yojimbo99 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think we are drifting way off topic here, but I assume you also insist on no magical effects being available to non mages, no healing to non priests etc? so all potions out of the game, all proc effects etc gone?</blockquote>That would be a wild and off base assumption then, and so far from anything that I would insist on that I can not even begin to go into detail.</blockquote>Yeah I was being sarcastic there. I was suggesting that making scout abilities completely scout only would not be fair and would make the easiest classes to play in the game even easier.See?

Lindar Phamoncry

09-06-2007, 05:16 PM

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Yojimbo99 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think we are drifting way off topic here, but I assume you also insist on no magical effects being available to non mages, no healing to non priests etc? so all potions out of the game, all proc effects etc gone?</blockquote>That would be a wild and off base assumption then, and so far from anything that I would insist on that I can not even begin to go into detail.</blockquote>Yeah I was being sarcastic there. I was suggesting that making scout abilities completely scout only would not be fair and would make the easiest classes to play in the game even easier.See?</blockquote>Do appologize if this seems like a bit of a trollBut by generalizing did I just hear you state that Dirges and Troubs are the easiest classes to play in the game? I didnt see much sarcasm in that statement.Bards often RELY on these quests as soloing many of the mobs that guard these precious updates is not an option. And I'd emphasize that troubs can at least charm these mobs to get their updates... but in other areas I think that Dirges generally have the upper hand.I've been trying to keep my mouth shut until seeing this first hand though I am quite nervous... shoudl be finished dl'ing test by the time I get home tonight... hope to have some better feedback then.

Rast

09-06-2007, 05:16 PM

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Yojimbo99 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think we are drifting way off topic here, but I assume you also insist on no magical effects being available to non mages, no healing to non priests etc? so all potions out of the game, all proc effects etc gone?</blockquote>That would be a wild and off base assumption then, and so far from anything that I would insist on that I can not even begin to go into detail.</blockquote>Yeah I was being sarcastic there. I was suggesting that making scout abilities completely scout only would not be fair and would make the easiest classes to play in the game even easier.See?</blockquote>No, I don't see.There is no totem that allows people who do not have the ability to wear plate to have plate mitigation. There are no totems out there that can match a healers ability to heal. There are no totems out there that can allow a dirge to dps like a wizard, or a brigand to AoE like a paladin.Why should any class have one of their primiere abilities reduced to worthlessness simply because the devs didn't think ahead?Yes, I fully support that classes that do not have innate stealth should not have the ability to sneak around like a class that does have this ability. Just like I don't think a class that doesn't have the ability to wear plate should have plate mitigation, or a class that can't feign death should have the ability to feign death. That is what makes the classes different and it should be kept, not cheapened by slowly watering down the abilities till everyone can do everything and none of it worth a dang.

aquavia

09-06-2007, 09:23 PM

Abilities that aren't typical to certain classes, like invis, feign death, etc., are limited in their totem or item form by timers. As someone with a scout main, I have no problem with any non-scout being able to have a stealth or invis effect, provided they're not able to do it for 12 hours at a shot. I think allowing those abilities in time-limited forms, as they are now, is pretty good.Concerning the original change to widgets, I'd like to add my voice as another person who thinks it freakin' stinks.

Guy De Alsace

09-06-2007, 10:08 PM

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite><blockquote>I still maintain that although in some cases it would be logical to assume a stealth character cannot gain an item without alerting an enemy, the game from the outset has been designed so any stealthed character can do just that.And you never heard of people being burgled while they were in the buildng at the same time? It's not entirely logical to assume that because there are guards, something is protected. Guards become complacent, and generally, if they can't see something then it doesn't exist. Not to mention, that stealth includes a "move silent" component. Negotiating a room and snaffling a book or trinket without being seen OR heard is exactly what this skill encompasses. Avoiding the people who are paying attention (those who can "see" stealth) is the player's challenge.I said "in some cases" <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Now - a blanket change comes along that almost certainly will see no correlating change to the quests or areas it pertains to. I dont mind a change in principle if it seems reasonable enough but in past experience it just never translates beyond a blanket rule change.One LU isnt enough to change details on over 3,000 quests so this will "go live" as is. And 3,000 quests do not need this change. They were fine before ~ what's changed? I know what you're saying, and you're assuming that all our feedback here will go unnoticed and unheeded. I sure hope that doesn't happen. For the game's sake as much for my own.3000 quests probably wont need changing but thats the thing, you would have to take a look at every quest in the game to gauge any effects of a global mechanics change on each quest. Reject the ones where there will be no impact, assess the ones there will be an impact. I dont think even the devs know each of the quests in the game intimately. Thats what makes me pretty certain it will reach live servers with minimal to no changes to the quests in the game as I doubt there is enough time for such a big job. I hope I'm wrong however. My main is currently a Troubadour who relies heavily on stealth. Whats also strange is that stealth is just one way to get a clicky without fighting all the way for it. Feign Death, using pets as distractions and charming mobs are some more yet these seem to be unaffected from what I see. What is it about stealth that makes the devs so twitchy about it?</blockquote></blockquote>

Armawk

09-07-2007, 03:50 AM

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I don't see.There is no totem that allows people who do not have the ability to wear plate to have plate mitigation. There are no totems out there that can match a healers ability to heal. There are no totems out there that can allow a dirge to dps like a wizard, or a brigand to AoE like a paladin.Why should any class have one of their primiere abilities reduced to worthlessness simply because the devs didn't think ahead?Yes, I fully support that classes that do not have innate stealth should not have the ability to sneak around like a class that does have this ability. Just like I don't think a class that doesn't have the ability to wear plate should have plate mitigation, or a class that can't feign death should have the ability to feign death. That is what makes the classes different and it should be kept, not cheapened by slowly watering down the abilities till everyone can do everything and none of it worth a dang.</blockquote>There are items and potions to do many things.. to an inferior standard than people for whom that ability is ornate. There are potions that heal and cure, just not as well and often as a healer. There are items out there that increase DPS or give proc damage effects.. but not that give dps like a wizard.Try actually relying on totems for once.. they, like health potions, give a pale shadow of the innate ability. Its not even once every 15 minutes either. Stop to pick up a shiny? thats a charge. talk to an npc. thats a charge. one fight? thats a charge. To use them like your scout uses stealth would be unthinkable.Oh and this change is terrible, for everyone. Innate stealth and invis (a mages invis is totally class defining) classes especially. Your solution is even worse though. Making scouts godlike compared to other characters in exchange for nothing isnt a very good idea.

Lilj

09-07-2007, 05:33 AM

I'm not sure why 'we' are fighting if we pretty much all dislike this change?Are some trying to get the totems nerfed, so scouts and mages can keep their own stealth/invis and avoid the blanket nerf? It seems so to me, because I have never heard scouts or mages complain about totem users before this <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />In fact it is my experience that most people in game are happy that non-invis/stealth users can in fact get to the group faster because of totems. Else we would have to go back to 'oh, you guys will have to come pick me up and fight through all the stuff, because I can't invis anymore'.I'm not sure we really want to loose the totems, I remember how it was, and I much prefer that people can meet up with the group fast.And since we pretty much all dislike this change, why don't we cooperate instead of fighting amongst each other about this and that nerf?Divide and concur, so true.

kreepr

09-07-2007, 09:18 AM

<cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not sure why 'we' are fighting if we pretty much all dislike this change?Are some trying to get the totems nerfed, so scouts and mages can keep their own stealth/invis and avoid the blanket nerf? It seems so to me, because I have never heard scouts or mages complain about totem users before this <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />In fact it is my experience that most people in game are happy that non-invis/stealth users can in fact get to the group faster because of totems. Else we would have to go back to 'oh, you guys will have to come pick me up and fight through all the stuff, because I can't invis anymore'.I'm not sure we really want to loose the totems, I remember how it was, and I much prefer that people can meet up with the group fast.And since we pretty much all dislike this change, why don't we cooperate instead of fighting amongst each other about this and that nerf?Divide and concur, so true.</blockquote>Yeah I agree with you we need to stand together on this. Its a bad change, no reason for it. I don't get why SOE does these kind of things.......... /confused

Mulilla

09-07-2007, 09:49 AM

<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> this change totally sux How am i supposed to finish a ton of SOLO quests depending only on my subpar bard dps??Man... i sometimes wonder what does the dev team think before implementing such a crappy change as this one. I am getting tired of relearning to play after each change... so tired...

Rast

09-07-2007, 09:52 AM

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I don't see.There is no totem that allows people who do not have the ability to wear plate to have plate mitigation. There are no totems out there that can match a healers ability to heal. There are no totems out there that can allow a dirge to dps like a wizard, or a brigand to AoE like a paladin.Why should any class have one of their primiere abilities reduced to worthlessness simply because the devs didn't think ahead?Yes, I fully support that classes that do not have innate stealth should not have the ability to sneak around like a class that does have this ability. Just like I don't think a class that doesn't have the ability to wear plate should have plate mitigation, or a class that can't feign death should have the ability to feign death. That is what makes the classes different and it should be kept, not cheapened by slowly watering down the abilities till everyone can do everything and none of it worth a dang.</blockquote>There are items and potions to do many things.. to an inferior standard than people for whom that ability is ornate. There are potions that heal and cure, just not as well and often as a healer. There are items out there that increase DPS or give proc damage effects.. but not that give dps like a wizard.Try actually relying on totems for once.. they, like health potions, give a pale shadow of the innate ability. Its not even once every 15 minutes either. Stop to pick up a shiny? thats a charge. talk to an npc. thats a charge. one fight? thats a charge. To use them like your scout uses stealth would be unthinkable.Oh and this change is terrible, for everyone. Innate stealth and invis (a mages invis is totally class defining) classes especially. Your solution is even worse though. Making scouts godlike compared to other characters in exchange for nothing isnt a very good idea. </blockquote>I spent 70 levels on a paladin before I ever used by first invis totem, for classes that can take a hit or can keep mobs at a distance, they aren't as vital to those classes (like many scouts) who have to go toe to toe and don't have the survivabilty options of other classes.And I disagree with your 'god mode' comparison. There are encounters my brigand can do that my pally can't, but there are also several my pally could do with ease that my brigand would be face down in the dirt. It is about playing to ones strengths and away from ones weaknesses. MOST scouts need to avoid AoE fights, my pally thrives in them. Would I welcome a totem that allowed me to AoE like a paladin and have the mitigation of a paladin on my brigand? Hell no. Nor would I welcome one that allowed my paladin to dps and debuff like a brigand.Each class needs to be different and no, I do not think the totems should be nerfed, I think they should be removed. While the timer is short on them, they reproduce every bit as good an ability as a core scout ability and that is wrong. If they want to leave them in, they need to be done so they aren't as good (ie, this nerf), but under NO circumstances do I support this very poor decision by the devs to further weaken a class skill simply because they allowed it to get out of control by granting it to everyone.

Rustle

09-07-2007, 10:10 AM

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite> <blockquote>I spent 70 levels on a paladin before I ever used by first invis totem, for classes that can take a hit or can keep mobs at a distance, they aren't as vital to those classes (like many scouts) who have to go toe to toe and don't have the survivabilty options of other classes. And I disagree with your 'god mode' comparison. There are encounters my brigand can do that my pally can't, but there are also several my pally could do with ease that my brigand would be face down in the dirt. It is about playing to ones strengths and away from ones weaknesses. MOST scouts need to avoid AoE fights, my pally thrives in them. Would I welcome a totem that allowed me to AoE like a paladin and have the mitigation of a paladin on my brigand? Hell no. Nor would I welcome one that allowed my paladin to dps and debuff like a brigand.Each class needs to be different and no, I do not think the totems should be nerfed, I think they should be removed. While the timer is short on them, they reproduce every bit as good an ability as a core scout ability and that is wrong. If they want to leave them in, they need to be done so they aren't as good (ie, this nerf), but under NO circumstances do I support this very poor decision by the devs to further weaken a class skill simply because they allowed it to get out of control by granting it to everyone.</blockquote>I think the "every bit as good" piece is where we could keep everyone - devs and players - happy. If the totem boosted a base roll for success of stealth vs a mob rather than guaranteeing success (as its seems to now,) then scouts could succeed (pretty much) all the time, while those using artificial aids might not. We could give the current "always see invis" mobs a chance roll, the flip side being the current non-see invis mobs get a chance roll and sometimes get to see us too. For me this would make sneaking about more fun imho. It would also give devs a chance to stop content being routinely bypassed in ways that weren't intended, whilst giving players a chance to pull off a daring caper. Of course it would be nice if armour noise, light and other factors were all modifers to that roll too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Iseabeil

09-07-2007, 10:10 AM

I dont really care about totems, they are more limited then having stealth/invis as native abilites (althout not as limited as the tinkered ones), having it as an ability will always be better. If invis, stealth, totem invis, 'cover-your-eyes-and-pretend-the-mobs-cant-see-you' invis all work the same way, really dont matter much to me. All of these abilities will take a massive hit if this goes live (well, maybe not the last one..). All quests in eq2 might not be made with consideration to the possibility to get clickies invis, but for a change like this to have remote chance to work, theyd have to go through each and every quest, find out wich will be heavily affected and either change the quests or increase the reward a lot. Thats a lot of work. I was just questing on my baby SK, Avoiding a Hot Bath in Zek, where you have to pick up all those crates underwater, whilst its packed with agro mobs (that do not see invis..). If I hadnt been able to invis on that quest, I wouldnt have done the quest wich just happens to be the first quest in the zek solo timeline of 23 quests. For me to bother with that, itd have to have legendary quest rewards... Yay for Everquest? Is the goal to make people grind more and quest less so they dont have to bother making all those quests? Slow down the AA gains? I really dont get what they are trying to achieve, even tho classes with innate stealth/invis has an edge, any class can go invis so its hardly a class-balance matter. Id love to know why they would want to put bottlenecks in solo questing (as they can use harvestables for any quest they dont want soloed this way).

Rast

09-07-2007, 10:25 AM

<cite>Rustle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite> <blockquote>I spent 70 levels on a paladin before I ever used by first invis totem, for classes that can take a hit or can keep mobs at a distance, they aren't as vital to those classes (like many scouts) who have to go toe to toe and don't have the survivabilty options of other classes. And I disagree with your 'god mode' comparison. There are encounters my brigand can do that my pally can't, but there are also several my pally could do with ease that my brigand would be face down in the dirt. It is about playing to ones strengths and away from ones weaknesses. MOST scouts need to avoid AoE fights, my pally thrives in them. Would I welcome a totem that allowed me to AoE like a paladin and have the mitigation of a paladin on my brigand? Hell no. Nor would I welcome one that allowed my paladin to dps and debuff like a brigand.Each class needs to be different and no, I do not think the totems should be nerfed, I think they should be removed. While the timer is short on them, they reproduce every bit as good an ability as a core scout ability and that is wrong. If they want to leave them in, they need to be done so they aren't as good (ie, this nerf), but under NO circumstances do I support this very poor decision by the devs to further weaken a class skill simply because they allowed it to get out of control by granting it to everyone.</blockquote>I think the "every bit as good" piece is where we could keep everyone - devs and players - happy. If the totem boosted a base roll for success of stealth vs a mob rather than guaranteeing success (as its seems to now,) then scouts could succeed (pretty much) all the time, while those using artificial aids might not. We could give the current "always see invis" mobs a chance roll, the flip side being the current non-see invis mobs get a chance roll and sometimes get to see us too. For me this would make sneaking about more fun imho. It would also give devs a chance to stop content being routinely bypassed in ways that weren't intended, whilst giving players a chance to pull off a daring caper. Of course it would be nice if armour noise, light and other factors were all modifers to that roll too <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>I can agree with that Rustle.Though my contention remains, why even leave stealth in the game after this? So we can sneak up and get one backstab off in a sea of social mobs?

Catria

09-07-2007, 10:31 AM

Forget the stupid totems. The gist of this thread is that none of us are happy with this change, and none of us think it makes any sense. Devs, please reconsider this because, as stated above a few times, it is going to make quests that are supposed to be "solo" impossible to do solo.

Rustle

09-07-2007, 10:56 AM

<cite>Catria wrote:</cite><blockquote>Forget the stupid totems. The gist of this thread is that none of us are happy with this change, and none of us think it makes any sense. Devs, please reconsider this because, as stated above a few times, it is going to make quests that are supposed to be "solo" impossible to do solo. </blockquote>Just to clarify then, yes this is a bad change, and goes far beyond totems, and I'm not happy.Personally I think a holistic discussion is more likely to influence their rationale for the change than drum beating so I've been interested to read all the points of view in this thread, even the ones about the t-word <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Lindar Phamoncry

09-07-2007, 10:59 AM

<cite>Catria wrote:</cite><blockquote>Forget the stupid totems. The gist of this thread is that none of us are happy with this change, and none of us think it makes any sense. Devs, please reconsider this because, as stated above a few times, it is going to make quests that are supposed to be "solo" impossible to do solo. </blockquote>EXACTLY!All due respect... I dont give a flying fart about totems.And I hate to make it all about me(kinda)... but its been blanket changes like this that have been borking bards since... well.. LU13? Making some of the least soloable classes even less soloable. Its odd little utility quests such as these that get me by when I cant or dont want to group.

AdamWest007

09-07-2007, 11:12 AM

<cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Are some trying to get the totems nerfed, so scouts and mages can keep their own stealth/invis and avoid the blanket nerf? It seems so to me, because I have never heard scouts or mages complain about totem users before this <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Then you must not remember when invis was first nerfed. Back in the day invis success was tied to your level vs. the mobs level, with an adjustment made based on invis spell quality. With my M1 invis spell, i could get just about anywhere. Then they made invis a non-upgraded ability, basically a watered down version of what it was. Shortly after, the stupid totems came out.So yes, some of us, including me, would like to see this change apply to the totems, but not the class defining abilities.And BTW, I also play a zerker/templar/defiler, so a totem change would hurt. I just want to return to the day when classes had unique abilities. Will it happen? Of course not, but it feels good to vent.

Skua

09-07-2007, 11:13 AM

Armawk

09-07-2007, 11:17 AM

I can actually say, with confidence, that me and my gf would not be still playing this game now if this change had been implemented 9 months ago, as our swash/conj main duo would not have been remotely as successful and fun to play as they are, and we would not have been drawn back into being such big time players as we have become, with many other characters.This IS a deal breaker.

Galeden

09-07-2007, 12:56 PM

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite>I spent 70 levels on a paladin before I ever used by first invis totem, for classes that can take a hit or can keep mobs at a distance, they aren't as vital to those classes (like many scouts) who have to go toe to toe and don't have the survivabilty options of other classes.And I disagree with your 'god mode' comparison. There are encounters my brigand can do that my pally can't, but there are also several my pally could do with ease that my brigand would be face down in the dirt. It is about playing to ones strengths and away from ones weaknesses. MOST scouts need to avoid AoE fights, my pally thrives in them. Would I welcome a totem that allowed me to AoE like a paladin and have the mitigation of a paladin on my brigand? Hell no. Nor would I welcome one that allowed my paladin to dps and debuff like a brigand.Each class needs to be different and no, I do not think the totems should be nerfed, I think they should be removed. While the timer is short on them, they reproduce every bit as good an ability as a core scout ability and that is wrong. If they want to leave them in, they need to be done so they aren't as good (ie, this nerf), but under NO circumstances do I support this very poor decision by the devs to further weaken a class skill simply because they allowed it to get out of control by granting it to everyone.</blockquote>As it stands last I checked, you would not be able to do the quests either, weither you can survive some hits or not, agro or getting hit will stop you from examining an item, so you can't just let them hit you while you examine it, you have to kill everything in the area same as someone else, and avoid any agro for 2 seconds while your examine timer goes down. The change does not just affect people using invis.

Sapphirius

09-07-2007, 12:59 PM

<cite>Galeden wrote:</cite><blockquote>As it stands last I checked, you would not be able to do the quests either, weither you can survive some hits or not, agro or getting hit will stop you from examining an item, so you can't just let them hit you while you examine it, you have to kill everything in the area same as someone else. The change does not just affect people using invis.</blockquote>Correct. I'm more upset over the widget change itself than the stealth/invis aspects. Getting your quest update now brings up a 2 second castng bar. If you're hit, your gathering of the update can be interrupted. It's just like collecting shinies. Sort of.

Lilj

09-07-2007, 01:06 PM

<cite>AdamWest007 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Are some trying to get the totems nerfed, so scouts and mages can keep their own stealth/invis and avoid the blanket nerf? It seems so to me, because I have never heard scouts or mages complain about totem users before this <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Then you must not remember when invis was first nerfed. Back in the day invis success was tied to your level vs. the mobs level, with an adjustment made based on invis spell quality. With my M1 invis spell, i could get just about anywhere. Then they made invis a non-upgraded ability, basically a watered down version of what it was. Shortly after, the stupid totems came out.So yes, some of us, including me, would like to see this change apply to the totems, but not the class defining abilities.And BTW, I also play a zerker/templar/defiler, so a totem change would hurt. I just want to return to the day when classes had unique abilities. Will it happen? Of course not, but it feels good to vent.</blockquote>Oh, I remember. I was doing my Predator quest and had to upgrade my stealth to make it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And I also remember you had a movement penalty back then, which was later removed (GU14), so that was an upgrade.If I remember correctly stealth and invis was changed in the big combat change. Do you really think those abilities were changed because totems came in later and not because it was part of the combat revamp?If we players can't cooperate to try and stop this change, but people continue to try and nerf totems and derail the thread by venting and ranting, I will just give up.I don't like this change, and I'm against it.ps: there is nothing unique about an ability 15 classes out of 24 have <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Galeden

09-07-2007, 01:32 PM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Correct. I'm more upset over the widget change itself than the stealth/invis aspects. Getting your quest update now brings up a 2 second castng bar. If you're hit, your gathering of the update can be interrupted. It's just like collecting shinies. Sort of.</blockquote>I agree, I could deal with loosing invis, though there are a few quests that might still have problems if there are a few clicks to do, but most you just examine, but waiting 2 seconds and having to keep agro free is the worst part of this. If I loose invis and die, so be it, but to keep agro free is unrealistic and not thought out well. There are too many quests that require something inspected in high agro areas to be doable with this change, and it is rare that they go back and redo quests to fix changes like this, let alone get them all fixed to be soloable again. I can think of zek for one expecially the underwater parts where you have to examine things by the shipreck underwater, and several in EF where you have to go underwater, and there are agro things all over in large numbers. The other thing that bothers me is if this was made with invis classes in mind, why should pet classes have the best solution of all, getting to have their pet hold the mobs while they get the inspect. They are making it harder for some classes but still having a big advantage to others, so its not leveling the playing field at all. (BTW I do NOT want more nerfs, I would much rather have this nerf removed before it goes live). I hope at the very least they remove the 2 second delay, if they do not remove the invis breaking change all together.

Sapphirius

09-07-2007, 01:42 PM

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not happy with the stealth/invis aspect either. This also means that I can't feign death to reach my updates. It means that I'll have to do what my warden does (cause she's too stingy to buy totems): fight my way to the updates. I'm just more unhappy about the way the widgets now work.

AdamWest007

09-07-2007, 01:50 PM

<cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote>If I remember correctly stealth and invis was changed in the big combat change. Do you really think those abilities were changed because totems came in later and not because it was part of the combat revamp?If we players can't cooperate to try and stop this change, but people continue to try and nerf totems and derail the thread by venting and ranting, I will just give up.I don't like this change, and I'm against it.ps: there is nothing unique about an ability 15 classes out of 24 have <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>You can't ask for cooperativity in one breath and be "forum fact checker" in the other and not expect potentially derailing responses <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> My point is still valid <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> invis has been watered down to the point that it is no longer a cool or desired ability in mages/scouts <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Shoudn't those classes - and of course the golden child furies <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - get some advantages out of a class ability as opposed to a 60sp totem? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Sapphirius

09-07-2007, 01:59 PM

<cite>AdamWest007 wrote:</cite><blockquote>My point is still valid invis has been watered down to the point that it is no longer a cool or desired ability in mages/scouts Shoudn't those classes - and of course the golden child furies - get some advantages out of a class ability as opposed to a 60sp totem? </blockquote>Pssssst. <whispers> You forgot monks in that too. We have Windwalk.Grrrrr. That forum smiley bug just irritates the fire out of me. What's with this post a smiley and get <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15" /> thing?/rerail

Mercenary

09-07-2007, 04:17 PM

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can actually say, with confidence, that me and my gf would not be still playing this game now if this change had been implemented 9 months ago, as our swash/conj main duo would not have been remotely as successful and fun to play as they are, and we would not have been drawn back into being such big time players as we have become, with many other characters.This IS a deal breaker.</blockquote>No comments at all about this by any dev, bet this nerf will go live after all. The nerf itself and especially they way it is put in is indeed a deal breaker, very disappointed in the devs.

Bramwe

09-07-2007, 04:24 PM

Why have it be a 2 second harvest? Will it blow the game up if it is a 0.1 second harvest? Just enough to break invis. I would guess too short of harvest time will allow FD flopping though the quests. I hate this change but just question why it is a 2 second harvest? I would just like a reason behind some of the changes. So many rumors can be eliminated by a simple one sentence answer.

Catria

09-07-2007, 04:30 PM

I would like to see a dev response on this at least. What is the reason for this change? It looks like those posting here are unanimously against this change and I really would like to know what the reasoning is behind this one.

Lord Montague

09-07-2007, 04:40 PM

<cite>Catria wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would like to see a dev response on this at least. What is the reason for this change? It looks like those posting here are unanimously against this change and I really would like to know what the reasoning is behind this one.</blockquote>I think it's needed about as much as I need a root canal. I mean, I'm all for making things more interesting and challenging, but this seems to be another way to add frustration and tedium.

Lord Montague

09-07-2007, 04:43 PM

Oh but wait. Looks like I spoke to soon. Loook at this (from today's test update notes):General:<ul><li>World objects that have a casting bar will no longer remove stealth.</li></ul>WOOT!

Catria

09-07-2007, 04:47 PM

Lodrelhai

09-07-2007, 06:12 PM

<cite>Seirrah@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh but wait. Looks like I spoke to soon. Loook at this (from today's test update notes):General:<ul><li>World objects that have a casting bar will no longer remove stealth.</li></ul>WOOT!</blockquote>...I'm actually not sure if this is an improvement over the casting bar, or something that skews the balance more - in the other direction. Can someone with a fully-functional computer check this on Test please?I've two concerns. First, while this is great for the stealth/invisers (and with a dirge, and assassin, a monk, and 3 mages, I admit I'm a bit top-heavy on the invis folks), bulk fighter-types who bully through the overpowering mobs, grab the update real quick, and either run for the hills or die where they stand are still screwed. Same with FD'ers, unless it no longer removes that as well.Second - is this ALL world objects? As in, can harvesting and collecting now be done without breaking stealth?

Almeric_CoS

09-07-2007, 06:22 PM

Actually, I'd say there's a bit of balance to it:On one hand, fighters and priests can buy totems to get invis, thus bypassing part of the problem.On the other hand, scouts and mages don't need the totems, but DO now have to worry about wandering mobs while they're waiting for the object timer.Fighters and priests have to worry about wandering mobs too, but if the fighter or priest gets caught mid-timer, they're still a lot more durable than the scouts and mages, on average, and some of 'em can even evac. (and if you're a non-evac class, get thee to a carniverous plant!)

Kenazeer

09-07-2007, 06:52 PM

Maybe I am reading that the wrong way, but it seems to me to be saying that it wont break sneak but will invis?

Goaldan

09-07-2007, 06:53 PM

I 'assume' this is also the case for Invis?Edit: Dang, missed about 4 posts while posting hehe.

acctlc

09-07-2007, 07:17 PM

Popped onto test and gave this a quick look. On my monk Fd'd, not able to clickie (not suprised there). Threw up a totem of the jaguar, able to clickie without totem dropping. I can live with this...thanks devs <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

denmom

09-07-2007, 08:42 PM

<cite>Arieva@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Popped onto test and gave this a quick look. On my monk Fd'd, not able to clickie (not suprised there). Threw up a totem of the jaguar, able to clickie without totem dropping. I can live with this...thanks devs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>Threw up a totem...that had me laughing for a bit, the image of a monk FD'd, trying to cough up a jaguar totem while the mobs are patting each other on the back because it sounds like one of them has something stuck.Thanks for the chuckle and the confirmation!

Kenazeer

09-07-2007, 08:47 PM

<cite>Arieva@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Popped onto test and gave this a quick look. On my monk Fd'd, not able to clickie (not suprised there). Threw up a totem of the jaguar, able to clickie without totem dropping. I can live with this...thanks devs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Good deal. Thank you for testing this.

Sapphirius

09-07-2007, 11:54 PM

Kaoru

09-07-2007, 11:57 PM

Why not just change it so that you can not get updates while you are fd, since this seems to be what soe seems to be going for now anyways.

Zabjade

09-08-2007, 02:04 AM

<cite>Kenazeer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arieva@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Popped onto test and gave this a quick look. On my monk Fd'd, not able to clickie (not suprised there). Threw up a totem of the jaguar, able to clickie without totem dropping. I can live with this...thanks devs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></blockquote>Good deal. Thank you for testing this.</blockquote>What about Windwalk? I figured FD would not let you, but what about a monks Power Munchy Stealth?

Mercenary

09-08-2007, 04:52 AM

Great news, thanks for listening Devs <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

MrWolfie

09-08-2007, 07:47 AM

Test is down right now, but as soon as I can I'll report on what breaks and what doesn't.Although, I'm still a bit interested to know why we need cast timers on these items at all?Why it's 2 seconds and not "immediate" (if all we're doing is preventing people with FD from getting clickies while feigned)?Why it now takes 5 seconds to teleport in neriak when it's immediate (to the loading screen, at least) on live?

Armawk

09-08-2007, 07:51 AM

I assume its intended to stop clicking while fighting in general, whereby someone can run into an area they arent able to handle, pick up aggro, click, die, revive back at the zoneline and have gained the clicked update.If it affects EVERYTHING its a bit harsh though Id have to say.

katalmach

09-08-2007, 08:21 AM

I don't like anything about this change, and here's why: I've got seven alts. I've maxxed out and swapped mains four times (from berserker to necro to mystic to swashie), and the only reason that I am still playing and enjoying this game is because it allows for a great deal of variety. Even though my characters all do the same quests, they do them in different ways. My necro invises, fights and feigns to get updates. My berserker just plain goes berserk on the mobs. My swashie stealths and feigns. My coercer stealths and charms her way to updates. My mystic sits on her cute little behind until someone comes along to help her (usually a monk, and I don't mind one bit that he can get the same update on his own with FD).I like the fact that different classes can find different solutions to problems, and this change just plain puts a stop to a significant part of that for brawlers, necros, rogues and tinkers - as well as the suicidal folk who likes to just run for an update and hope for the best (I admit, I love doing this on some of my characters). Ideally I would like for SOE to just forget about this change, but realistically, I could live with it. I resent it, I do, but I could live with it as long as the cast timer is removed. It drove me nuts on test and it's going to drive me nuts on live - the fact that tasks that used to be instant are now not is really quite a big and annoying change.

MrWolfie

09-10-2007, 08:08 AM

Tested: The cast timer now does not break stealth, invis, wind walk or (invis/stealth provided by) totems of chameleon/jaguar.So now, while it appears to not nerf anyone anymore, it's merely an annoyance. It's still on the writ tables and the teleporters in Neriak, and I'm sure, in many other places where it's inappropriate.

Beldin_

09-10-2007, 10:38 AM

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nice. They're actually listening.</blockquote>I would wait until GU#39 before saying that. We all also thought they were listining when taking back the de-aggro nerfs. And then they threw them again in with the next LU <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

EvilIguana9

09-10-2007, 02:03 PM

<cite>Rustle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite>.I think the "every bit as good" piece is where we could keep everyone - devs and players - happy. If the totem boosted a base roll for success of stealth vs a mob rather than guaranteeing success (as its seems to now,) then scouts could succeed (pretty much) all the time, while those using artificial aids might not. We could give the current "always see invis" mobs a chance roll, the flip side being the current non-see invis mobs get a chance roll and sometimes get to see us too. For me this would make sneaking about more fun imho. It would also give devs a chance to stop content being routinely bypassed in ways that weren't intended, whilst giving players a chance to pull off a daring caper. Of course it would be nice if armour noise, light and other factors were all modifers to that roll too <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>I agree with you very much. I dislike the boolean mechanic, whereby you are either visible or invisible. I'd much prefer a D&D style system of opposed skill checks and skill modifiers. It makes sense that stealth, even magical versions, would be imperfect in execution. Higher level invis spells and more skilled scouts would be much harder to detect, and higher level creatures and classes trained in observation would have a better chance to notice you. In EQ2 I'd handle this by adding 2 skills: Detection and Stealth. They would go up at each level like weapon and defense skills and be modifiable by gear and spells. Spells that currently grant stealth/invis would put people into stealth mode and grant a bonus to their stealth skill. Whether or not you are able to be seen by someone while you are invisible is determined by a straight check of their detection skill versus your current stealth skill. Spells that currently work as "see invis" would be changed into straight buffs to your detection ability. Scouts and anyone assumed to be particularly observant would also have detection skill bonuses added to their self buffs. Bingo, you now have a skill-check based system for stealth abilities. Personally, I'm fine with there being a casting time on world items where it makes sense for there to be such a thing. However, we should categorically remove all instances where you can't do something in combat and replace it with a simple focus check. Classes that don't have the focus skill should be given it. Tying this in to my above changes to invisibility, casting timers for these widgets should be adjustable based on the complexity of the task and finishing each should result in a short term debuff to your stealth skill to account for any commotion you may have caused.