Devastation Fist Change

[Agaxiq]

<span class="postbody"><b>Brawler </b><ul><li><i>Devastation Fist</i> - Improved reuse speed from 5 to 3 minutes. Can now be used against all NPC opponents, but damage varies depending on the difficulty of the opponent. Self-stifle duration is now set to 10 seconds.</li></ul>The slightly longer stifle is nothing compared to the improvements in this, at least from the description.   So, we're not limited to no-arrow or below, we can use it on up arrows and epics?  That means this thing will have to have a damage rating rather than "100% of max health".Well, at level 70, this guy commonly crits level 71 solo mobs for around 12k or so, so if I could do a 12k devastation fist to a heroic or an epic, that would make me a happy bruiser.  Reducing it from 5 to 3 minutes is extra icing on the cake.Not sure how it would work on lower level mobs, so would be an interesting mechanic.  Is the damage rating based on the mob's level or the bruiser's level?Will have to /testcopy just to see, unless someone can post a screenshot of it now.agressiv</span>

[Geothe]

It does 1% damage to an Epic x4.

[QQ-Fatman]

<p>It does 1% damage to epic x4 targets, 4% damage to epic x3 and epic x2 targets, 25% to heroic targets, and 100% to solo targets. I just tested it on guards in freeport, it did 35k damage (4% to a level 70 epic x3 guard.)</p>

[Agaxiq]

EQ2Flames had the changes:<img src="http://www.stfunub.com/Downloads/dev.jpg" alt="" border="0" />Here is the Rabid Cry change:<img src="http://www.stfunub.com/Downloads/dps.jpg" alt="" border="0" />agressiv

[Goaldan]

Am I the only one who thinks this is a bit much on Heroic targets? o_O

[Cornbread Muffin]

Am I the only one who is [Removed for Content] that they took our DPS buff away? The DPS buff is way better than this crap.

[tt66]

<cite>Cornbread Muffin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Am I the only one who is [Removed for Content] that they took our DPS buff away? The DPS buff is way better than this crap.</blockquote>All the reports back from the test server so far suggests that there is no sort of normalization going on. So say it's a hand-wavy estimate of 60 dps. It might not be as good as the DPS buff on paper, but I still think I prefer it in theory becausea) It's currently totally unaffected by any kind of diminishing returns curve. (As there is nothing else like it out there at the moment)b) Being tied to CAs rather than autoattack means that our burst DPS is increased at the expense of sustained DPS. I figure a) gives it the edge when raiding and b) gives it the edge while soloing / pvping.So far, my only real gripe about it is that it's yet another static number (with all the attendant non-scaling issues that brings). Ideally I'd have preferred a straight % increase in CA damage, but I imagine that was never an option what with it being raid-wide and all.Of course, if they decide to normalize it across 3 seconds to be a grand total of +15 damage per CA I'll be [Removed for Content] as all hell. But I can't see them doing that....I hope...

[Couching]

IMO, I like the change on bruiser since there is no diminishing return or normalization of + dmg on CAs.It increases more damage in raid wide than dps buff.On test server, all + healing, spell damage CA damage are no longer normalized. It's a good change.

[Cornbread Muffin]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cornbread Muffin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Am I the only one who is [Removed for Content] that they took our DPS buff away? The DPS buff is way better than this crap.</blockquote>All the reports back from the test server so far suggests that there is no sort of normalization going on. So say it's a hand-wavy estimate of 60 dps. It might not be as good as the DPS buff on paper, but I still think I prefer it in theory becausea) It's currently totally unaffected by any kind of diminishing returns curve. (As there is nothing else like it out there at the moment)b) Being tied to CAs rather than autoattack means that our burst DPS is increased at the expense of sustained DPS. I figure a) gives it the edge when raiding and b) gives it the edge while soloing / pvping.So far, my only real gripe about it is that it's yet another static number (with all the attendant non-scaling issues that brings). Ideally I'd have preferred a straight % increase in CA damage, but I imagine that was never an option what with it being raid-wide and all.Of course, if they decide to normalize it across 3 seconds to be a grand total of +15 damage per CA I'll be [Removed for Content] as all hell. But I can't see them doing that....I hope...</blockquote><p>Aeralik says there is no normalization and the full damage is applied to the first strike of multi-attack abilities. I don't know if there is a cap but they have said they want to put gear out with +CA damage in the future so this won't be unique for long. If there is a cap it could become potentially worthless. I'm counting 41 DPS on this thing unless you get some sort of reuse haste. For me at 700 autoattack DPS in my normal raid group if my +25 DPS mod is giving me 5.7% or more actual DPS increase then it is better than +90 CA damage. I don't know what raw DPS numbers on the curve this corresponds to but it is pretty high. Since I don't typically get a dirge, an inquis, or a coercer most of my DPS boosts come from procs - zerker and my strength ring. When these are down my DPS boost is relatively low and so my DPS mod is almost assuredly 5.7% or more. Humorously, now that our buffs are raid wide it is no longer necessary for us to be in a group to give them our bonus so it becomes less likely we'll be in a group with buffers, instead being sent out of group to buff so that someone who needs the group buffs and likely does more damage can take our spot. This just makes the loss of the +dps boost that much worse.</p><p>Also, as you mentioned, this doesn't get better with gear. It is what it is and that is that. I currently have KOS weapons (staff of flapping wing, twin calamity and fist of bashing). If I had quality EOF weapons the DPS mod would be that much more powerful and could maybe go down to a break even point of 3%.</p><p>I think burst damage is lower or at best equal with this ability as well. Currently solo I can hit stuff with my 2h, for example, for about 1k damage 5 times in the time it takes me to burst through all of my CAs (10 seconds without AEs). My standing DPS mod is 43 so the +25 is worth about 25%. I will now be hitting for 25% less damage, however, so I lose 1250 damage. In exchange this +CA damage gives me 900 damage, so I lose 350. If I *really* need to burst damage and I pop crane flock I now do significantly less damage than before.</p><p>I just don't think the numbers add up unless you spend all of your time in a group with heavy +dps buffers. If you don't, you lose out. You lose out in solo and you lose out in most groups and at least for me I lose in my normal raid group. I only win with a coercer or a dirge/inq/str ring proc combo.</p><p>I would like to see what +DPS numbers correspond to what % so I could see the exact point at which I start losing and what it would take to stay above that point. Does anyone know of a diminishing returns chart out there?</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

I can't remember which Dev said it.. but it was in response to the changes to +spell damage and the caps involved.He said that the only cap for +damage is doubling the ability's max damage.So for so most combat arts, that's at least in the hundreds, if not thousands mark.Also keep in mind this change is a prelude to the Spell Consolidation change. So who knows how this will affect things.*Edit*As it is.. if you lost some personal DPS from the change to Rabid Cry, I'm pretty sure you got some of it back with the change to Devastation Fist.

[Cornbread Muffin]

<cite>Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>*Edit*As it is.. if you lost some personal DPS from the change to Rabid Cry, I'm pretty sure you got some of it back with the change to Devastation Fist.</blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>This will be changing slightly.  Rather than percentage based against epics it will just be a large direct damage attack that scales with level.  It will still be useable against epics at least but not for the numbers players are currently reporting.  The other parts you have seen will remain the same though.</blockquote>

[Maks27]

It still sucks.

[EQ2Luv]

<cite></cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>This will be changing slightly.  Rather than percentage based against epics it will just be a large direct damage attack that scales with level.  It will still be useable against epics at least but not for the numbers players are currently reporting.  The other parts you have seen will remain the same though.</blockquote></blockquote>Fastest nerf ever.  Seriously go WTFudge every time i think about how it got the nerfbat so quickly.  Unless I'm wrong and 'large direct damage' doesn't mean 2000-3000 for a brawler.  Although if they think 'monk' while randomly picking a number i'm sure it will be 800-1000. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />

[EQ2Luv]

Does the + combat art damage increase knockout combination? Does it effect every time it hits, or does it act like a dot?

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

The abilities it affects, and how they affect them, are as follows:55 <b>Sonic Fists</b>: +90 damage57 <b>Pound</b>: +90 damage57 <b>Storming Fist</b>: Nothing58 <b>Stance: Provoking Stance</b>: Nothing58 <b>Uppercut</b>: +90 damage59 <b>Meteor Fist</b>: +90 damage60 <b>Kidney Punch</b>: +90 damage61 <b>Dropkick</b>: +90 damage62 <b>One Hundred Hand Punch</b>: +90 damage on first hit, rest are unchanged63 <b>Stance: Blistering Fists</b>: Nothing63 <b>Slap Around</b>: +30 damage on all targets64 <b>Rumble</b>: Nothing65 <b>Knockout Combination</b>: Nothing66 <b>Callous Stomp</b>: +90 damage67 <b>Blazing Lunge</b>: +90 damage on first hit, dot is unchanged69 <b>Steel Fist</b>: +90 damage70 <b>Eye Gash</b>: +90 damage70 <b>Savage Bruising</b>: +30 damage on first hit against all targets, rest are unchangedProcs (even 100% chance ones) don't benefit from this at all.From this, you can deduce that our Burst damage increases by 1050 against 1 target IF you use your AE's. Add +60 for each extra target you are facing and landing your AE's on.If you have your AA's done, then you will get two to three more CA's that can take advantage of this. Add +90 for each single target CA, and +30 (per target) for Wis line's CA.DPS-wise, well.. it really depends on the ability's recast timers. Take one of your average fights in ACT, count the times your CA's are used, multiply by the appropriate damage, and divide by the number of seconds in that fight. There's your DPS increase.Going by rough estimates:- In a 30s fight where you use all your single target combat arts, and pound/dropkick a couple times, you are looking at ~42 DPS increase on a single target.- In a 90s fight, where you use most of your combat arts a couple times, and your AE's hit a couple targets, you are looking at ~40-50 DPS increase, depending on the number of targets hit with your AE's.How this compares to the +25 DPS mod really depends on if you were getting a lot of DPS modifiers or not. If you were, then you might see similar or even higher DPS scores with this change. If you weren't, and your autoattack was in the 400-500 DPS range, you'll probably see a drop of around 20 DPS or so.How this affects other melee classes, I'm not sure. Just because we don't get major DPS bonuses, doesn't mean other classes won't. They may end up benefiting more from having the +90 CA damage from across raid than the +25 DPS would have given.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Another thing to note, the Agility line amplifies this, as does the Strength line final. Something to consider.With the change to Devastation (even if it's a capped amount that scales with level, it still WORKS on epics now, so that's cool), I would be very interested in seeing how Chi works with all this.If they ever change the Strength line to work with weapons, then I'd try Strength/Wisdom down to the finals. Then I'd be starting combat with slapping CHI, hitting Knockout Combination and spamming my CA's until the timer is up, then slap Crane Flock followed by Devastation Fist.Wonder what the Burst DPS would look like from that?

[QQ-Fatman]

STA line final works on devastation fist as well. I just ran up to contested mayong, hit mantis leap on my zek giant pet, and then "Your Devastation Fist hits Mayong Mistmoore for 89423 crushing damage" <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Cornbread Muffin]

<cite>Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>How this compares to the +25 DPS mod really depends on if you were getting a lot of DPS modifiers or not. If you were, then you might see similar or even higher DPS scores with this change. If you weren't, and your autoattack was in the 400-500 DPS range, you'll probably see a drop of around 20 DPS or so.</blockquote><p>I'm counting a drop of 60 DPS from 400. The +CA is going to be around 40 DPS, and losing 25% of your damage off your autoattack is going to cost you 100 DPS.</p><p>Here's a little chart that describes this relationship: If you do     <col1>     autoattack damage, you will not break even with the new ability until your DPS mod is high enough that +25 DPS normalizes to <col2>%. For example, if you do 400 DPS autoattack, you will not break even until +25 DPS is worth only 10% DPS increase. If your dps mod goes any higher (making the +25 DPS worth less) then you win. If your dps mod is any lower then you lose. There are two Mod % columns. The first assumes the +CA dmg adds 40 dps and the second assumes it adds 50 dps.</p><p><b><u>AA DPS</u></b>     <b><u>Mod %</u></b>     <b><u>Mod %</u></b></p><p>100           ----            -----200           20%          25%300           13.3%       16.6%400           10%          12.5%500           8%            10%600           6.6%         8.3%700           5.7%         7.1%       <----- this is where I am at800           5%            6.2%900           4.4%         5.5%1000         4%            5%1100         3.6%         4.5%1200         3.3%         4.1%</p><p>All I need now is a chart showing what +dps numbers correspond to what % so I can figure out just how many buffs you need to make our new buff worth it. I really don't know what the result will be - I'd like to find that it isn't that high so this is better off but I don't think that will be the case.</p>

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>QQ-Fatman wrote:</cite><blockquote>STA line final works on devastation fist as well. I just ran up to contested mayong, hit mantis leap on my zek giant pet, and then "Your Devastation Fist hits Mayong Mistmoore for 89423 crushing damage" <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>Others have reported that even though it displays critical damage, the actual damage the mob takes is still only 1%.  Don't know if this is accurate or not though.  Doesn't matter though since they're nerfing it.  My guess is post-nerf you'll get to see it crit for 2500. Maybe 3750 if its dispatched.

[Novusod]

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>QQ-Fatman wrote:</cite><blockquote>STA line final works on devastation fist as well. I just ran up to contested mayong, hit mantis leap on my zek giant pet, and then "Your Devastation Fist hits Mayong Mistmoore for 89423 crushing damage" <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></blockquote>Others have reported that even though it displays critical damage, the actual damage the mob takes is still only 1%.  Don't know if this is accurate or not though.  Doesn't matter though since they're nerfing it.  My guess is post-nerf you'll get to see it crit for 2500. Maybe 3750 if its dispatched. </blockquote>If it is that low then it is not worth casting. It would need to be 7k or 8k to make any kind of difference otherwise the stifle will Lower your dps for that fight.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

It depends, if you have just burned through all your CA's from Knockout Combo, and are using Crane Flock anywyas...Remember, this is a STIFLE, not a STUN. I've seen people (in other threads) talk about it like it's stunning us... it's not. We can still autoattack, and we can still move around, use our single target taunt, etc.I'm pretty sure that nearly any damage they decide to put out from Dev Fist will be better than using an extra Dropkick and Pound for those 10 seconds.One thing to consider... once they change Dev fist over to real damage, it will be affected by +CA damage, Debuffs to the mob's crushing mitigation, and possibly even modified by strength.As long as it's still a very high amount of damage I won't mind.Honestly, how often can Verdict be cast? What's the reuse? And besides... it can only be cast on one mob at a time anyways (limited to when the mob is below a certain amount of health).A Dev Fist that could reduce a % of hp at any time, recastable in 3 minutes (Jesters Cap, Agility 3, and Chi can modify this) may end up being too much for a skill.Personally.. I'd rather have a new ability against Epics that I can use every 3 minutes, rather than a verdict style thing that can only be cast once per 30 minutes or an hour (because it's too overpowered otherwise).

[tt66]

<b><a href="http://kbfl.co.uk/docs/devfist.gif" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Woo! 3500 damage!</a></b>Well we sure as well don't have to worry about it being called overpowered now.*sigh*You know the weirdest thing? Think of every whine you've ever heard about brawlers. Think of all the complaining and moaning you here in the 60_69 channel. What is it? 9 times out of 10 it's about us having feign death and being able to solo names in SoS.I've never, ever, once heard anyone complain that we were overpowered in a raid.Now look at what they've done to Dev Fist.We're going to be able to utterly <i>slaughter</i> anything that looks at us funny in SoS. They've actually given a buff to the one aspect of the game in which we're already strong. I just don't understand what they're thinking.(NB : I didn't want to say anything in the Feedback thread because, well, it might get us nerfed some more! But as nobody checks these threads, I figured I was safe!)

[Raznor2]

<p>I think your misreading the description there it's says 1984 to 3685 in addition to .25 percent of the mob's max health.  So for example say 20,000 is .25 percent of a 4x's max health you would do that plus the 3k from the ca damage, but only one bruiser could do that every 30 seconds.   </p><p> ~Raithan, 70 bruiser Venekor  </p>

[Agaxiq]

<cite>Raznor269 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think your misreading the description there it's says 1984 to 3685 in addition to .25 percent of the mob's max health.  So for example say 20,000 is .25 percent of a 4x's max health you would do that plus the 3k from the ca damage, but only one bruiser could do that every 30 seconds.   </p><p> ~Raithan, 70 bruiser Venekor  </p></blockquote>25% is to heroics.the 1984-3685 will be to epics, and will be determined by your strength.  For example, someone posted with 708 STR its 2184-4056.They are mutually exclusive. Aeralik talks about it here:<a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/bruisers/10812-devastation-fist-2-0-a.html#post238996" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.eq2flames.com/bruisers/1...html#post238996</a>Makes sense.  The 1%/4% bit was way overpowered <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  This isn't a nerf, its better than what we have now.1) We can still one-shot no-arrow or down-arrow mobs.2) The 25% health to heroic is huge, especially named, assuming we can get it to land.  It won't stifle us if it doesn't.3) The damage to Epics may not be great, but you can use it while jousting or if all of your CA's are down anyways.My point is, we only had #1 before - the only nerf is 3 more seconds to the stifle.  You couldn't even use it before in many circumstances, now you can - if you don't like the change, don't use it.This is a good change.  Yeah I wish the damage to epics was higher, but oh well.  We're not necros, the first change was a lifeburn with the 1% bit with almost zero penalty.  And the fact that we could FD after we got agro would make it crazy.agressiv

[tt66]

<cite>Raznor269 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think your misreading the description there it's says 1984 to 3685 in addition to .25 percent of the mob's max health.  So for example say 20,000 is .25 percent of a 4x's max health you would do that plus the 3k from the ca damage, but only one bruiser could do that every 30 seconds.   </p><p> ~Raithan, 70 bruiser Venekor  </p></blockquote>Nah, look at it again. It does 89-149 melee damage as the attack, and then has an affect depending on what level the target is.100% health if it's not got an arrow on it. (standard or weaker)1984 to 3685 if it's an epic25% health if its ^ ^^ or ^^^ (stronger than standard)alas, epics count as their own class, rather than just "stronger than ^^^".

[tt66]

<cite>Agaxax@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Makes sense.  The 1%/4% bit was way overpowered <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" />  This isn't a nerf, its better than what we have now.1) We can still one-shot no-arrow or down-arrow mobs.2) The 25% health to heroic is huge, especially named, assuming we can get it to land.  It won't stifle us if it doesn't.3) The damage to Epics may not be great, but you can use it while jousting or if all of your CA's are down anyways.My point is, we only had #1 before - the only nerf is 3 more seconds to the stifle.  You couldn't even use it before in many circumstances, now you can - if you don't like the change, don't use it.This is a good change.  Yeah I wish the damage to epics was higher, but oh well.  We're not necros, the first change was a lifeburn with the 1% bit with almost zero penalty.  And the fact that we could FD after we got agro would make it crazy.agressiv</blockquote>The trouble is, it's all backwards. You're right in that 2) is a huge bonus to us.. but it's one that we didn't need. I mean, sure I'll take it if it's offered, but if you thought people complained about us being able to solo SoS before...I take issue with the fact that 1% was overpowered, but I'm sure you've read it all before. At the end of the day, we didn't need something to help with heroics and we did need something to help with epics. We got precisely what we didn't need, whereas what we did was dangled in front of us for a day and then snatched away.And I'll ask again.. which Dev was so dense that they were actually shocked that 1% of an epic's health was actually a fair bit?Edit : Ooh, thanks for the link to EQ2flames tho. At least now I know where I need to post in order to get a dev to respond.Edit2 : Heh. I like Aeralik's comments. "Hey, don't knock it. It's an extra CA to cast if you're not planning on doing anything else for the next 10 seconds anyway...." How... inspiring.

[Agaxiq]

I do understand where you are coming from.  Devastation Fist is one of the few Bloodline abilities that was useful at 70, even if it was situational.  This made it better, but its not the love we're looking for.Bruisers will always be in no-man's land - heck I'd love an ability like Furies get with Energy Vortex, something like:"Focused Bruising"*  Increases taunt effectiveness by 100%*  Decreases DPS by 50*  Lowers All Combat Art Damage by 30%*  Increases Mitigation from all Damage by 5000*  Decreases Defense by 15It would have to last longer than 30 seconds though, and obviously the numbers would have to be tuned.  Don't STUN ME - I can't tank when stunned.  A lone taunt is not enough to hold agro.Now, back to your regularly scheduled program.agressiv