Coercers prepare to bend over with LU 38

[Flipmode]

<p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/10680-lu-38-nerfs-boosts.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/1...rfs-boosts.html</a></p><p> Seems we getting nerfed...yet again.  </p>

[Indrim]

I cannot get my friends from other games to even give EQ 2 a try due to encounters, too easy etc etc.I've been playing both ranger and coercer and, after reading the bugs and such...I'll prob stick with the rangerI now understand why everyone goes illusionist and I'm the only coercer in my guildoh well, I guess I'll just go full time on RNG and use the coercer as an alt

[piro]

is that seriously that big of a deal ? coerercers badass without it but maybe im just not high enough to notice

[Triple Black]

Is this something of a concern at level 70, because, well I am only level 42 and I just don't understand <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ibunubi]

<cite>Triple Black wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is this something of a concern at level 70, because, well I am only level 42 and I just don't understand <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>You're right, it's more of a concern at 70 because most of us raid. This gives a nerf to our main DPS AA for raiding and also nerfs our power increasing ability. It'll make more sense as you level up, especially if you're new to the game.

[Ibunubi]

<p>It was jsut pointed out that the BoE change is also on Test right now, so the DPS will be evening out or better rising, hopefully. Breakdown and Vicious Torment have hit over 1k on the first hit.</p>

[Nuhus]

I'm definately don't care for the mana cloak change. I saw there was a T6 (Mana Cover) upgrade but heh.

[catweaver]

mana cloak change is seriously big nerf - even with AA points in it, most that 3 triggers will give is 600 total power in 3 minutes time... 600 power is nothing in the grand scheme of things.  the spell has been in game for so long the way it is, and all of a sudden you decide to change it? and seriously... perpetuality nerf isn't that huge, if you play on a server with no lag.  Lag makes it almost not even worth it, and now... idk, I'm seriously considering speccing out of it, but I'm not even sure what I'd go with instead.  They go to nerf illusionists because so many gripe that illy's are overpowered, and yet coercers get hit even harder it feels like.

[Nuhus]

<p><img src="http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/5605/untitledqx3.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="950" height="432" /></p><p>Middle is current live. Other 2 are current test. I do have 5 aa spent in mana cloak.</p>

[joshshift]

i keep switching classes trying to find one that isnt getting beat to death with the nerf stick...guess its not going to happen. thanks soe for screwing with us, great idea btw nerf every class so that when level 80 cap goes live we wont be anymore powerful than we were at 70. buff the str line? yeah, if i wanted to do melee damage i would play my swashie, jesus christ.

[Triple Black]

<cite>Returning new to the game would be a good description of me. I just started working on AAs and reallocated them but don't have a lot. I'll watch and see what all is happening. So many acronyms, what is BoE I am sure i could find it.</cite><cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Triple Black wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is this something of a concern at level 70, because, well I am only level 42 and I just don't understand <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>You're right, it's more of a concern at 70 because most of us raid. This gives a nerf to our main DPS AA for raiding and also nerfs our power increasing ability. It'll make more sense as you level up, especially if you're new to the game.</blockquote>

[Rumbler]

I will be interested in testing this out before I call it a nerf. Being able to recast it every 3 minutes is a bonus to me - especially on encounters that dispelll buffs. The 3 minute duratation means the group members other than the tank will likely get procs from AoE where before it was highly unlikely. The ugraded version at level 53 means it is nearly 1000 power. The old spell has a recast of 15 minutes so you have to multiply what this does by 5. 1000 x 5 is 5000 power and we will have more control over when we dish it out.

[Ibunubi]

BoE used to be Bolt of Energy, which will now be called "+Spell Damage" on items.

[Nuhus]

The recast is down to 3 mins but the duration is reduced to 30 seconds.

[Rumbler]

<p>I misread the duration sorry but still think it has potential overall to be good or at least not so bad as it seems. If there is now a lvl 53 version of the spell I expect we will have 63 and eventually 73 versions as well. Possibly it was a little too good to have an upgrade path before?</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

The extent of the change for Mana Cloak (and Mana Cover) is that it's not going to be used for a completely different purpose than it used to.Before, we'd save this ability for when the MT was getting dangerously low on power. This means for any long fights, chain pulling in a heroic settings (sometimes contested ring events require doing this to get the loot), or those all important mana drain fights.Instead, now we'll need to cast it all the time to make sure the MT is keeping up in power, because in order to get remotely close to what we had before, we'll have to spread it out over 5 casts, and the MT might not even need it 75% of the time.Basically, it's taken away the burst Power Healing factor, and control of when that happens from the Player... and simply adds more to our "over time" regen.Quite frankly, WE DO NOT NEED ANYMORE OVER TIME REGEN. We already have an entire spell line ON TOP of the regular one (Beholder's Eye), and another in combat power heal over time.The last thing we needed was another slow regen... our ability to BURST REGEN power was what made us more useful than other regen classes.Now all we have is Channel and a bit from Manaflow. /sigh

[kleiner_drache]

<p>"The recast is down to 3 mins but the duration is reduced to 30 seconds."</p><p>Yea, but how often are you in a fight where the mob doesn't hit the group at least 3 times in 30 seconds....</p>

[Nuhus]

<p>I'm sure the triggers will hit in 30 seconds. 3 triggers off of it aint that great.</p>

[chily]

<p>Kewl the spell is more powerfull and usefull now more powerover time.I don't like the the 3min powerplay and 12 silent atm, with only a proc chance of 33%.With the change it's a higher powerfeed then before, but only single target in that case :/at the second look it should have at least 6 triggers that is 1 trigger each group member in a aoe range. 3 triggers is really not much <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />If only 1 is getting hit it's prolly a higher power feed but not when the group runs oop <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[JackAll]

<p>We have slow mana regen comming out our [Removed for Content].</p><p>We do not need an other spell for it.</p><p>Gorging thought alone is giving my grp 1560 every 32.9 sec. Thats 8534 mana in the same time those 3 procs will give 1000 mana for the upgraded and AA boosted version of mana cloak.</p><p>Crap I say.</p><p>Crap crap crap</p>

[Encantador]

<p>At level 70 this is not a boost to MC, it is a nerf. MC is no use solo. It is hardly ever useful in a group (say 5 times a year). It is great in a few raid fights.</p><p>I must use this spell on average a couple of times per raid. When the MT is having to spam everything to keep aggro and their power is down below 20% I just pop this and their power will slowly climb. At the end of 3 mins it will often be up around 30 to 40%. It must generate 2000 to 5000 power in this time. While this is happening the rest of the group are getting a tiny boost every from the little damage they are taking from a few AEs.</p><p>If this comes to live as it is, it will be something I have to cast early just in case the MT will need extra power and at most one more time [any one know a fight which takes 7 mins or more?]. All for 480 or at most 960 power.</p><p>As for the rest of the group they will be lucky to get anything, perhaps one AE hit in the 30 secs giving them 160 power each.</p><p>In effect this change will make the spell just one more to spam at the start of the fight and then whenever it is up. Yet more button mashing.</p><p>Bah I just thought, it is even worse than that, for any fight I think might cause the MT to go OOP I will have to power feed early and often. That is 500 to 600 power every minute. Compare that to 480 every 3 minutes. Plus Mana Flow is a percentage, hence will scale as the MT gets a bigger power pool. I am thinking MC will disappear down to Hotbank 4 or 5 in amongst the rebuff after death keys.</p><p>Looking at the Bloodline spells for all classes I cannot see any other class that got nerfed, several got a significant boost.</p><p>Even upgrading to the level 53 spell will still make it rubbish and the thought of spending 5AA there to bring it up to 1000 every 3 minutes <I will save the bad word editor the trouble>. Could not agree with Jackall more.</p>

[Vydian]

Yep, I was hoping the numbers for the new mana cover would make up for the change, but it falls way short. It should be changed so that the raw numbers add up to 1k over 3 triggers, then change the coercer AA to add extra triggers to the spell instead of increase the percentage.

[Ibunubi]

<cite>Ryael@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yep, I was hoping the numbers for the new mana cover would make up for the change, but it falls way short. It should be changed so that the raw numbers add up to 1k over 3 triggers, then change the coercer AA to add extra triggers to the spell instead of increase the percentage.</blockquote>That's a good thought. Increase the triggers and duration... Like our reactive AA's.

[Goaldan]

Not 100% related to Coercers, per se.But where did you get that 53 Adept III from on Test?Curious if my Sage is gonna need a new recipe book <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Terrius]

<p>The mana cloak nerf is really sad, Coercers arn't the onlyones feeling it, my Illusionist is too. used to be a spell i'd cast if i knew there was a tough mana intensive fight ahead. Now with only 3 triggers it barely filled 1/4 of my paladins mana pool :/ atleast before there was a chance it'd go off every time i got hit and not just the first 3 <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />I dont like it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /> I like it the way it is on live, over the way it is on test.</p><p>|edited for Spelling :/ </p>

[Kagechi2k3]

Does anyone know what the entire reason for this uber nerf is?   I see this spell somewhat akin to emergency heals on a healer.   It's there to save your group from a wipe due to lack of mana on the Tanks part.  Why change it?    It wasn't overpowered and it was effective.  I am getting tired of spells getting nerfed just because someone out there is hacked off that the spell isn't useful in their exact situation. Who cares that MC is almost never used in groups.  It rocks in raids and it has saved many a raid from failing.  Coercers are already a rare breed (and I like it that way)  but if the Devs keep smacking us with a loaded nerf bat we will become extinct.  From what I have seen, MC is well on it's way on that list of spells like our Health to Mana transfer that never is going to get used.  Coercers don't need another freaking spell that has to be spammed every 10 freaking seconds.

[Jeepned2]

<cite>Kagechi2k3 wrote:</cite><blockquote> Coercers are already a rare breed (and I like it that way)  but if the Devs keep smacking us with a loaded nerf bat we will become extinct.  </blockquote>For the Coercers that raid, the bat has been coming at us like mad since LU17. I am still a believer that Sony hates the Coercer and instead of having the guts just to get rid of the class (force us all to become something else...ie an Illusionist). Instead we are dying a slow dead of a thousand cuts. We have triggered spells that don't work much anymore since MT's are so well geared now, they screwed up our hate, can't charm, can't mez/stun except for super short times (with a big immunity attached), can't possess, can't etc..etc..etc....It's actually getting impressive on how much thought process Sony is having to use to figure out how to nerf us more. So here you go Sony, I'll help you out. Hate to think someone is losing sleep trying to figure out how to really get to us.1. Reduce mana regen on all spells by 50%. 2. Remove AA abililties that increase mana regen and replace with AA's that increase our abilities to Charm and possess. Although don't you dare make them epic capable.Need more ideas on how to nerf us?... PST...

[wanshu]

Normally I prefer spells and abilities that have more fine-grained control over broad-based bufs.  i.e. faster re-cycle and definite action rather than a '% chance to do something'.  This change seems like a move in that direction but I have to admit that I'm not feeling it for this change.  It seems like it will reduce the overall effectiveness of the spell so I prefer the spell the way it is now.Besides, I'm getting just a little tired of the game mechanics changing every month.  The whole point of an MMO is to build a character and watch it become more powerful.  How do you build if the foundations keep changing all the time?Nonce70 Coercer - Befallen

[Kagechi2k3]

Granted, This series of nerfs are hitting both illys and Coercers but coercers are getting the worst end of it from a raid standpoint because of our previous usefulness in the MT group.  (The Devs are slowly stripping that from us as well)  I hope that someone at SoE reads these boards, because I agree that the triggers should be 100% and that they should up the number of triggers depending on how many points you put in..  Not this crazy junk that they are doing now...... More triggers would bring it back up to a useful spell and would make it useful in both raid and groups which is what I think the Devs are trying for......... although poorly atm

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

While the Mana Cloak change does make things a bit less useful in the MT group/emergency situations... the change to Strength line does help Coercers quite a bit.Previously, the only option for DPS was Agi/Int, meaning you had to be below 30% power to get a lot of DPS, and thus give a decent transfer rate for the MT (or carrying your weight in raid dps).With the changes to Strength line, it looks as if we may be able to do DPS while meleeing, power free.. and thus eschew the Int line and keep our Mana for things like Channel.Strength line benefits include:- 2 low-medium damage CA's with very quick recast.- 1% riposte per rank (up to 8%), good for soloing/PvP- 10% melee range per rank (up to 80%), so nearly double the melee range.. meaning you don't have to get as close to do your melee damage and can joust easier. CA's get their range increased too.- +48 Haste, DPS, Double Attack AND Crits, as well as +50 to Piercing and CrushingSelf buffed, with an adept 3 Impetus (6<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, +DPS adornments, the Earing of Tunare and proc rings, and eventually the Amulet of the Forsworn... we're looking at:+96 Haste+168 DPS48% Double Attack49% CritsIn a raid.. with buffed Strength, more haste/dps, and procs like Cacaphony of Blades (yay Dirges), I could see the Strength line being responsible for a lot of DPS.And you get to keep your mana too.If they made Counterspell work on Epics, that would be even better... but unfortunately most epic AE's that are worth anything aren't considered racial or class spells... but rather "environmental events" and run off scripts instead. But for soloing and heroic it's incredibly good too.

[Jeepned2]

<cite>Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>While the Mana Cloak change does make things a bit less useful in the MT group/emergency situations... the change to Strength line does help Coercers quite a bit.Strength line benefits include:- 2 low-medium damage CA's with very quick recast.- 1% riposte per rank (up to 8%), good for soloing/PvP- 10% melee range per rank (up to 80%), so nearly double the melee range.. meaning you don't have to get as close to do your melee damage and can joust easier. CA's get their range increased too.- +48 Haste, DPS, Double Attack AND Crits, as well as +50 to Piercing and CrushingSelf buffed, with an adept 3 Impetus (6<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />, +DPS adornments, the Earing of Tunare and proc rings, and eventually the Amulet of the Forsworn... we're looking at:+96 Haste+168 DPS48% Double Attack49% CritsIn a raid.. with buffed Strength, more haste/dps, and procs like Cacaphony of Blades (yay Dirges), I could see the Strength line being responsible for a lot of DPS.</blockquote>I have to admit I read this post with my jaw hanging down. Let me get this right, as a Coercer you are trying to boost your melee DPS? Even though this post is about the huge nerf on Mana Cloak, this just blew my mind. Our MT group is normally a tank, 2 healers, Dirge and Assassin. So let see, I guess the Dirge loses the DPS buff so I can keep it? I'm sure that will go over well. And now on top of all the button mashing I already do, you want me to constantly joust on almost ever fight?  I'm kind of at a loss on how to respond to this post, having a hard time wrapping my mind around this concept. But hey, what ever floats your boat. Let me know how it works in EH. Would like to know how much the mystic/defiler appreciates you sucking up some of the MT's wards? By the way, which aa line are you giving up to get the STR line? Or I guess the question is, which one are you keeping? Amazing post!

[Vydian]

<cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>While the Mana Cloak change does make things a bit less useful in the MT group/emergency situations... the change to Strength line does help Coercers quite a bit.Strength line benefits include:- 2 low-medium damage CA's with very quick recast.- 1% riposte per rank (up to 8%), good for soloing/PvP- 10% melee range per rank (up to 80%), so nearly double the melee range.. meaning you don't have to get as close to do your melee damage and can joust easier. CA's get their range increased too.- +48 Haste, DPS, Double Attack AND Crits, as well as +50 to Piercing and CrushingSelf buffed, with an adept 3 Impetus (6<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" />, +DPS adornments, the Earing of Tunare and proc rings, and eventually the Amulet of the Forsworn... we're looking at:+96 Haste+168 DPS48% Double Attack49% CritsIn a raid.. with buffed Strength, more haste/dps, and procs like Cacaphony of Blades (yay Dirges), I could see the Strength line being responsible for a lot of DPS.</blockquote>I have to admit I read this post with my jaw hanging down. Let me get this right, as a Coercer you are trying to boost your melee DPS? Even though this post is about the huge nerf on Mana Cloak, this just blew my mind. Our MT group is normally a tank, 2 healers, Dirge and Assassin. So let see, I guess the Dirge loses the DPS buff so I can keep it? I'm sure that will go over well. And now on top of all the button mashing I already do, you want me to constantly joust on almost ever fight?  I'm kind of at a loss on how to respond to this post, having a hard time wrapping my mind around this concept. But hey, what ever floats your boat. Let me know how it works in EH. Would like to know how much the mystic/defiler appreciates you sucking up some of the MT's wards? By the way, which aa line are you giving up to get the STR line? Or I guess the question is, which one are you keeping? Amazing post!</blockquote>I'd rip you a new one here, but this isn't eq2flames, so you get the toned down version.1) An MT group with only 5 people? nice.... I'll assume for a second that you meant you are also in the MT group and just failed miserably to mention it. The 2 people that get DPS buffs for sure are the MT and the the assassin (swashy if they are used instead). Typically, the remaining slots are used for either signet and/or deaggro buffs cross raid. It would probably be a wash between putting the DPS on the coercer or the dirge if there are free slots. So yeah, not a big deal there.2) It's pretty clear you have no idea what kind of damage output the new STR line can generate. No it's not going to be scout damage, but it's designed to compete with the other DPS options. Having parsed myself on test and from other people, a *minimal* gear setup and solo, we were getting around 300DPS just from auto attacking. That's with a suitable weapon (Soulfire Staff), yet pretty low strength. Given the right group (ahem, the MT group perhaps?) counting in possible damage procs, haste, str buffs, I can see that getting out to about 500 or so. Wanna guess how much INT or AGI increases our DPS? Give you a hint...it's pretty close to a recent number I just posted...3) It's such a shame that jousting would be too much for you to handle. I'm sure all the melee classes hearts bleed for you right now. Given the fact that we get a nice range increase to melee (currently bugged last I checked, hopefully will be fixed before it goes live), jousting would be pretty easy considering we only have to move a few steps. Not to mention that the 2 CA abilities from STR work to keep perpetuality going during the joust.4) As far as which AA line to drop? Personally it would be INT for me. Being in the MT group alot myself, I also have a responsibility to keep power up on my healers as well as using channel. With INT currently, I have to hope that when I'm under 30%, no one else needs power feeding cause I won't have any to give. Also my power contribution to channel would be useless. On the long fights now, I simply don't sprint so I can power feed, but I lose that big chunk of DPS. Gee, guess how much DPS I would lose on the power intensive fights if I was specced STR and keeping auto attack up?5) Eating up the wards? I simply have no response for this. Most people have been auto attacking for awhile anyway just to get a little extra DPS. If it isn't an issue now (which it isn't), it won't be an issue specced STR.Btw, amazing post.... Amazing that some people just write something off without considering the possibilities.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Not to mention, what happens if you are in the non-MT group? Coercers tend to be placed in a Melee DPS group, since we have jack that really helps casters specifically.So being in a melee DPS group, you'll likely end up getting a bunch of melee oriented buffs from group buffs... why not take advantage of that? And keep power for when you need it.

[Jeepned2]

<cite>Ryael@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I'd rip you a new one here, but this isn't eq2flames, so you get the toned down version. <b><span style="color: #ff0000;">Be careful there, Sony goes out of their minds when you use other website names in their forums....Oh....wait....this is Coercer Forum, Sony never reads this, you're ok there.</span></b>1) An MT group with only 5 people? nice.... I'll assume for a second that you meant you are also in the MT group and just failed miserably to mention it. <b><span style="color: #ff0000;">Yep...meant that...include me too please..</span></b>The 2 people that get DPS buffs for sure are the MT and the the assassin (swashy if they are used instead). Typically, the remaining slots are used for either signet and/or deaggro buffs cross raid. It would probably be a wash between putting the DPS on the coercer or the dirge if there are free slots. So yeah, not a big deal there. <b><span style="color: #ff0000;">Correct, not a big deal DPS wise, It's just have to listen to all the complaining that bothers me.</span></b>2) It's pretty clear you have no idea what kind of damage output the new STR line can generate. <b><span style="color: #ff0000;">Very correct!</span></b> No it's not going to be scout damage, but it's designed to compete with the other DPS options. Having parsed myself on test and from other people, a *minimal* gear setup and solo, we were getting around 300DPS just from auto attacking. That's with a suitable weapon (Soulfire Staff), yet pretty low strength. Given the right group (ahem, the MT group perhaps?) counting in possible damage procs, haste, str buffs, I can see that getting out to about 500 or so. Wanna guess how much INT or AGI increases our DPS? Give you a hint...it's pretty close to a recent number I just posted...3) It's such a shame that jousting would be too much for you to handle. I'm sure all the melee classes hearts bleed for you right now. Given the fact that we get a nice range increase to melee (currently bugged last I checked, hopefully will be fixed before it goes live), jousting would be pretty easy considering we only have to move a few steps. <span style="color: #ff0000;"><b>Ummm last time I checked it was a long run in and out for Woushi...</b></span>Not to mention that the 2 CA abilities from STR work to keep perpetuality going during the joust.4) As far as which AA line to drop? Personally it would be INT for me. Being in the MT group alot myself, I also have a responsibility to keep power up on my healers as well as using channel. With INT currently, I have to hope that when I'm under 30%, no one else needs power feeding cause I won't have any to give. Also my power contribution to channel would be useless. On the long fights now, I simply don't sprint so I can power feed, but I lose that big chunk of DPS. Gee, guess how much DPS I would lose on the power intensive fights if I was specced STR and keeping auto attack up?5) Eating up the wards? I simply have no response for this. Most people have been auto attacking for awhile anyway just to get a little extra DPS. If it isn't an issue now (which it isn't), it won't be an issue specced STR. <b><span style="color: #ff0000;">This is only an issue on those very few fights when I'm in the ST group and only the ST is in attacking the split mob(s). But a butt chewing is a butt chewing, and I've had a few.</span></b>Btw, amazing post.... Amazing that some people just write something off without considering the possibilities. <b><span style="color: #ff0000;">Oh, when I said "Amazing post. It wasn't overtly derogatory. It takes people like you who are willing to experiment and tell people like me what you found out. I was amazed that someone thought of going on the STR line for a Coercer and still am. We have been arguing for how long on STA/INT, AGI/INT and so on? I'm just wondering what caused you to think of even going to the STR line. All I hear most of the time is "MAGES AND HEALERS AT MAX RANGE NOW!!!". We have a very suttle (sp?) Raid Leader.</span></b></blockquote>Ok..so hear are my questions:1. You said that you are getting about 500 Melee DPS out of the STR line, good, how much where you getting before the STR Line?2. If you killed your INT line, how much less Magic DPS are you doing?3. So based on 1 and 2, how much more DPS are you doing overall by going to the STR over the INT line?If it doesn't help my overall DPS and reduces my mana pool some (I admit not a lot), then not sure it's worth the shift. at least not for me. And what happens when you're not in the MT group with all those good buffs?

[Flipmode]

<p align="left">I played with the Str line on both my Illusionist and coercer on test.  The bonuses are very nice but my only concern is we dont auto attack when casting spells.  So its an either or situation.  If you are in the MT grp you can stop casting when CoB is up and then go back to nuking.  Also, this line would take an entire retooting of my gear which i may not be willing to do this late into the expansion.</p>

[Hamervelder]

This change will definitely hurt raiders more than casual group players.  It's difficult enough to keep power as it is on long fights.  But you know, this is just one more change that I think will go into making LU38 horrible.  Some of the changes started out looking good, but now, I'm not so sure.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<cite>Flipmode wrote:</cite><blockquote><p align="left">I played with the Str line on both my Illusionist and coercer on test.  The bonuses are very nice but my only concern is we dont auto attack when casting spells.  So its an either or situation.  If you are in the MT grp you can stop casting when CoB is up and then go back to nuking.  Also, this line would take an entire retooting of my gear which i may not be willing to do this late into the expansion.</p></blockquote>Don't fret overmuch... I've played a lot of melee classes, and I can tell you that you will do autoattack in-between each spell cast even if you chain cast. Combat Arts work exactly like Spells, only they tend to have a quicker cast time.This is where Agi line comes in handy because it will reduce your cast time and allow for more autoattack to get through.As for the gear change, it's not too difficult as I've found. It does take looking at quest rewards differently, so if you've already done a lot of end tier collection quests and t7 quest rewards, it might be more difficult. For example, the Amulet of the Forsworn reward for DT access would be better, but if you've already done the quest and picked the 8 FT one, you are out of luck.As it is.. I've been able to get over 300 Strength and keep over 500 Int with a mix of treasured, legendary  and collection quest gear. And I haven't even got all the stuff I want, like the Wolf tooth blue shiny reward, etc.There seems to be quite a few legendary pieces that have both strength and int on them. There's a big list of gear over on eq2flames that indicates the best raid gear for a str-based enchanter. Those would be a bit tougher to get your hands on though... some pieces you might have to compete against scouts and fighters.In the end, I think I'm going to have two gear setups. A Str-Agi build, and an Agi-Int build. With two sets of gear, I'll be able to switch from Melee to Caster depending on the raid or situation...You know... when they add the house item to swap two builds. Best of both worlds!Oh! And before, without the Str line I was getting maybe 20 DPS from my piddly autoattack. No Strength to speak of, plus wimpy weapon with virtually no buffs means for hideously low DPS. Even procs like CoB go off at a very low rate when you are swinging with no haste.A jump from 20 to 500 is quite huge.. and it costs no mana at all.Not sure how much the Int line gives, between it's crits and 25% damage increase when below 30% power. Whats the average zonewide parse these days? 1200? 25% of that is only 300... how much extra are we getting from crits? If it's less than 180 then it's already beat by what the Strength line potentially gives.

[Vydian]

I won't start quoting big blocks of text as that gets annoying, but it's much easier to have discussions instead of unfounded disbelief eh?Anyway, alot has already been parsed out and experimented with on test. These can be found at the website I mentioned earlier in a couple of threads, but some brief details:Chel'drak's Shard is pretty much #1 and is no surprise: good rating, good damage range and proc. Pretty sucky caster weapon otherwise. The solo parse, while chain casting spells, was something like 298 DPS specced 5-4-8-8 STR and 4-7-4-8-2 AGI. It dropped by about 70 DPS going full chronomotion due to having a shorter recovery time and not being able to get more auto attacks in. For reference, the test was also done with NO AGI (to see if fast casting hurt the number of auto attacks that would go through) and the numbers were almost identical. Soulfire came in at about 60 DPS lower, but it comes with +spell damage AND a spell proc, which would probably more than make up the difference. There was some more testing with a dirge for buffs and +melee proc (think they clocked in over 450 with Soulfire). These were all on grey mobs, so the hit rate was higher, but limited buffs and of course limited debuffs. Given this info, it would not surprise me at all to see 500+ DPS from auto attack in a raid environment.As far as what INT gives me, I know my typical fights went up anywhere from 300-600 DPS when I respecced from AGI/STA to AGI/INT. One problem with coercers is that our damage spikes depending on what the mob does. If reactives procced on attack instead of on successful hit, it would be more consistent. Some fights I do pathetic damage like under 600 DPS, others I can hit almost 2k.The way I personally look at is this, coercer spell damage fluctuates per fight and everyone is pretty much aware of this. Making a significant portion of your damage physical instead of solely on spells would help to alleviate that fluctuation. The biggest thing to consider will be what group the coercer ends up in. There's typically some pretty hefty melee buffing going in the MT group and is one of the more likely places you'll find a coercer. The scout DPS group would be next and again, some melee buffs there too. From an illusionist's perspective, they would probably still get more mileage from INT seeing as they will probably be in the caster DPS group first. On top of all that, a coercer would retain their mana for utility purposes. I also believe it would switch a tactics tradeoff between having to joust and having to deal with power on long fights. Will melee DPS suffer when jousting? Sure. Will spell DPS suffer on power intensive fights due to not being able to keep yourself below 30%? Yup. The whole point I think isn't so much which is statistically better, STR or INT. Instead, it'll come down group makeup and what kind of benefits those bring. The LU38 changes will just make STR alot more viable in the melee group now. Despite all of this, no one will know for certain until it goes live and someone takes it up and really gives it a shot.

[Lleinen]

Oh lord, I love STR/AGI and will be spec'ing into it soon as the patch goes out...my only worry is if they are going to actually fix the [Removed for Content] melee range bug, the 3rd AA just isnt working, at all....all it does is increase crushing/piercing (and im not even sure if its doing that, didnt bother to look!)

[Vydian]

For the record, Lin has been one of the people parsing and reporting results, didn't want to speak for him though.

[Ibunubi]

<p>When LU 38 comes Live, I'm switching back to STR+AGI. The melee will give coercers more direct damage, which we lack. In raids, with tanks being geared out, the reactives tend to be less effective for DPS unless it's an AE mob. I really saw the difference in my parses in Freethinkers with AGI+INT. The most I could do was 1600 and I remember in our first clearings, I could hit 2k easy. I'll definitely find out when we hit 3rd floor of EH again because I've missed previous clearings since I swapped back to AGI+INT.</p><p>I just need my weapon now. Chel'Drak has been stingy, and I'm almost done with SoD.</p><p>So you'll see some parses from me as well on EQ2Flames, as I did with AGI+INT.</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<cite>Ryael@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote> Will melee DPS suffer when jousting? Sure. Will spell DPS suffer on power intensive fights due to not being able to keep yourself below 30%? Yup. </blockquote>This is why I mentioned having the two setups of Str/Agi and Agi/Int when the dual specs becomes available would be ideal.That way if you know you are going on a raid where your spell damage will be high (low end tank, or at least high end mobs that will land a lot of hits), and there will be few power issues... then you can switch to Agi/Int, with maybe more Mana oriented EoF AA's.If you are instead going to be doing easy raid content, or you have a stellar tank getting minimal damage, switch to Str/Agi with less Mana Oriented AA's.

[madha]

<p>See i picked the sta line for the group buffs. and our templer hits almost 2-3k crits in a raid. Mystic hits about 300.  And the final deagro ability our lock and uppber wizard love casue when they hit a nasty 16k crit on a spell and the agro shifts to them i allow them to still dps and save the rez for later.  I do the best dps i can an offer the best utility buffs i can. But with utility you lose dps and i think i can handle that.  Cause i would be more then willing to loose even more dps if we had another buff type line for the groups benifit.  Its all about what you are willing to do and what your raid will expect from you.</p>

[mcavellero]

<cite>Ryael@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd rip you a new one here, but this isn't eq2flames, so you get the toned down version.1) An MT group with only 5 people? nice.... I'll assume for a second that you meant you are also in the MT group and just failed miserably to mention it. The 2 people that get DPS buffs for sure are the MT and the the assassin (swashy if they are used instead). </blockquote>I use to cast impetus on the MT but he made a good point...95% of his damage comes from Combat Arts and not from autoattack...better to use that concentration for a -27% Hate buff for a raid member.  Impetus only affects auto attack and not Combat Arts.

[Vydian]

<cite>madhatr wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>See i picked the sta line for the group buffs. and our templer hits almost 2-3k crits in a raid. Mystic hits about 300.  And the final deagro ability our lock and uppber wizard love casue when they hit a nasty 16k crit on a spell and the agro shifts to them i allow them to still dps and save the rez for later.  I do the best dps i can an offer the best utility buffs i can. But with utility you lose dps and i think i can handle that.  Cause i would be more then willing to loose even more dps if we had another buff type line for the groups benifit.  Its all about what you are willing to do and what your raid will expect from you.</p></blockquote>I used to think this way alot about STA and it isn't incorrect. However, there are a few things consider.1) Crits abound!...but do they matter so much? Are all those crits saving the tank from certain doom or is it over healing? Taking a step back, ask yourself if the MT would have had any real trouble staying up without the extra heal crits. Having been specced out of STA for over a month now, I find no real difference in the tanks survivability. Now consider that a raid can ALWAYS make use of more DPS, no matter the source.  With survivability and aggro control, all you need is "enough". With DPS, there is always room for more. Granted maximizing DPS is dependent on the first two...That doesn't mean the %heal crit isn't useful. It could very well be that some of the crits have saved the MT, but not always.2) Severe Hate is a real on-the-fence ability for me. While a good argument can be made for the heal crits, the rest of the STA line is pretty crappy. So if you don't need the crit (See point #1), then you are spending 22 AA for an ability to maybe save someone when they pull aggro. For me, I can't justify that currently. Right now, I always make use of Perpetuality and Volatile Magic. That being said, Severe Hate can be a real life saver. But is it worth the point investment?

[Vydian]

<cite>mcavellero wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ryael@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd rip you a new one here, but this isn't eq2flames, so you get the toned down version.1) An MT group with only 5 people? nice.... I'll assume for a second that you meant you are also in the MT group and just failed miserably to mention it. The 2 people that get DPS buffs for sure are the MT and the the assassin (swashy if they are used instead). </blockquote>I use to cast impetus on the MT but he made a good point...95% of his damage comes from Combat Arts and not from autoattack...better to use that concentration for a -27% Hate buff for a raid member.  Impetus only affects auto attack and not Combat Arts.</blockquote>While I know that Impetus doesn't improve combat arts, it's not always cut-n-dry "use a deaggro instead". If no one is pulling aggro while running the DPS mod in the MT, then there really isn't a reason to worry about it. And I know I've seen my MT's DPS drop by 100-200 without me in the MT group (I've been in the scout DPS group alot recently), so I doubt that 95% from combat arts is totally accurate. Again, it goes back to, if you have enough aggro control and survivability, why not boost DPS?

[zormik]

<p>If a MT gets 95% of his dps out of ca's djeez, he must parse very low ...</p><p>The only way to get high dps for warriors is to perfectly time your autoattack swings and use ca's in between.If you're neglecting your autoattack you're loosing out on 50% or more overall dps.</p>

[Blumfield]

Whatever melee I dps buff usually jumps 2 spots on the parse. Sometimes only one spot, but there's always an improvement.  Autoattack dmg is not trivial =)

[Blumfield]

It's easy enough to test.  Run ACT and see for yourself what % of the tank's dmg comes from autoattack.  Also, check out whether that % changes when you dps buff.  I guess I've never actually broken this down before -- will next raid.  Should be interesting.

[mcavellero]

<cite>Charmeur@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If a MT gets 95% of his dps out of ca's djeez, he must parse very low ...</p><p>The only way to get high dps for warriors is to perfectly time your autoattack swings and use ca's in between.If you're neglecting your autoattack you're loosing out on 50% or more overall dps.</p></blockquote><p>Do you acknowledge or understand what you just said?  I am assuming you somehow misunderstood my statement or became confused or something.</p><p>Leaving auto-attack on while hitting a CA every-so-often will<u> NOT</u> do more damage than casting CAs in a swift strategic manner.  CAs do MOre Damage! Therefore if one is up, cast it, if the situation allows...in good combination. Yes certain CA combos are better that random button mashing, but allowing CAs to rest will significantly lower a tank's DPS...ask a raid tank to just plain auto attack and see how well he/she holds aggro.</p><p>Also...how did you come to conclude that I said to neglect auto-attack? I read my statement over and did see any indication of this.  Auto-attack well...auto attacks in b/w combos of CAs...no one in their right mind would turn it off unless there's some sort of sick damage shield.  If 50% of a tank's damage is coming from auto-attacks, that tank is not maximizing his/her potential.  Some of our tanks (guardians/berserkers)hit from 1k-2k extdps depending on the situation/mob(s)...</p><p>From my experience...it is cut and dry...a warlock/assa/rager is parsing 3k+...what makes more sense (especially since the trouby grp hate nerfs)...impetus which affects a tanks auto-attack by 100-200 or the DPS lost from the death of crazy warlock parsing 3k-4k+</p>

[Oldlore]

My raid-geared berserker does far more damage with autoattack than with CAs.  With the right weapon and AA spec (buckler) any warrior will have huge autoattack damage.  I think I have 2 attacks that *might* hit as hard as my autoattack does (all M1).Now if you time it right you should still use CAs and they will increase your dps, not to mention the useful debuffs attached to some of them...but there is NO WAY any competent warrior gets most of his DPS from CAs lol.I should qualify this by saying I'm talking raids and warriors.  Not heroic mobs which die in 10s of grp CA/spell spammage.  Not Sks/pallys with all their spell damage and no double attack AA.

[Blumfield]

<cite>Schmutzen@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's easy enough to test.  Run ACT and see for yourself what % of the tank's dmg comes from autoattack.  Also, check out whether that % changes when you dps buff.  I guess I've never actually broken this down before -- will next raid.  Should be interesting.</blockquote>Tested it.  With no coercer dps buff (I was on defiler), Guardian off tank did 26% of his damage with autoattack; Guardian MT did 29%.  Previous raid, approximately the same percentages.  It would appear that either the 5% is wrong, or we're in very different raids.

[mcavellero]

<p>Auto-attack damage is relative...you are saying 26%, I read other forums where people say 40%, and someone else here said it does more damage than CAs...a lot of factors go into it.  With our tank it's 90-95% CAs most of the time(1k-2k extdps).  However as you and I have both confirmed <u>impetus has very little dps effect on the MT's output</u>.  To me, relative to my raids, it makes a whole hell of a lot more sense to pop that on a crazy warlock or assassin and having that dps die vs adding 100-200 dps.   It might not with another setup as it seems that our raid tanks are very different from each other(AA, spell quality, etc...)</p>

[Blumfield]

<cite>mcavellero wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Auto-attack damage is relative...you are saying 26%, I read other forums where people say 40%, and someone else here said it does more damage than CAs...a lot of factors go into it.  With our tank it's 90-95% CAs most of the time(1k-2k extdps).  However as you and I have both confirmed <u>impetus has very little dps effect on the MT's output</u>.  To me, relative to my raids, it makes a whole hell of a lot more sense to pop that on a crazy warlock or assassin and having that dps die vs adding 100-200 dps.   It might not with another setup as it seems that our raid tanks are very different from each other(AA, spell quality, etc...)</p></blockquote><div><p>You know, this is a fun question to consider.  Here's the way to figure out which is a better choice (if I'm not mistaken).</p><p>Assumption: 1 pt damage=1 pt hate</p><p>1)Study how much average dps per fight you add by dps buffing.  Take that number times 1.171 (assuming master 1 enraging demeanor).  That's approximately how much hate you add per fight by dps buffing.</p><p>2)Take your average Warlock (or whoever's getting HL) damage per fight times .25 (assuming AA enhanced master 1 HL at 25% deaggro).  That's how much hate you decrease by buffing with HL.</p><p>Intangibles:  A)More dps is always a good thing, since that means a mob that's dead quicker.  B)Higher DPS increases hate of the MT relative to everyone on the raid, where HL will only affect one player's hate relative to the MT.</p><p>I'll study this one too if I ever get time.  However, if there are any jobless lazybones out there who'd like to do this experiment and report the results before I do, please, feel free!</p></div>