Why are some of the brawler AA lines much better for monks?

[Lord_Kronon]

<p>All AA that gives an extra attack for every normal autoattack are much better for monks than for bruiser. Why is that?</p><p>For example, Crane Flock will do much more for a monk than for a bruiser, due to the monks hasted auto attacks.</p><p>Or am I missing something? Clearly half the AA tree should not be better for monk than for bruiser.</p>

[saliorboy]

Well the STR line requires barefists which fits in well w/ Bruiser Off. Stance that gains an extra benefit from barehands. And +haste items are a lot easier to come by than +dps. I figure it all washes out in the end.

[Lord_Kronon]

<cite>saliorboy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well the STR line requires barefists which fits in well w/ Bruiser Off. Stance that gains an extra benefit from barehands. And +haste items are a lot easier to come by than +dps. I figure it all washes out in the end.</blockquote>Yea, but isnt the difference huge. A monk using Crane Flock should do close to double the damage that a bruiser does when he uses the same skill, and still they have the same cooldown, power useage, etc. And there are other AA skills that are based on autoattacks as well.

[saliorboy]

Fine, and I will trade you any of our EoF end lines for Drag.

[Lord_Kronon]

<p>Well, this unfair inbalance is enough for me to stay away from the crane AA line atleast, why should I spend X amount of something to gain Y, when monks spend the same X to gain 2*Y?</p><p>To bad, I grew up with Karate Kid and it was one of the AA skills I thought was the coolest (in case you dont know, the Crane Kick was the attack that made Ralph Maccio win the tournament in that movie).</p>

[tt66]

<cite>saliorboy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fine, and I will trade you any of our EoF end lines for Drag.</blockquote>Heh. I'll trade you any of your EoF end lines for "Soak Hit"? or "Retribution of Stone"?Edit : To the OP. Yes, the additional haste that Monks have make the Str and WIS AA lines more beneficial to them. However, the higher damage our CAs do make the INT AA line more beneficial to us. Probably AGI too, now that I think about it.

[Couching]

I bet OP has crap gear and didn't raid or have no clue that bruiser can deal a lot more damages in solo and with raid buff than monk.In solo, my bruiser did more damages than my monk since bruiser has much better burst damages.My lv57 bruiser can deal 600-700 dps in solo heroic mobs with MC weapons. Show me any monk can deal 600-700 dps at lv57 with same quality gears. The main dps is coming from CAs. A lot of casual monks can't even deal 600+ dps at lv70 in solo heroic mobs.In raid, low self haste of bruiser has much potential in dps than monk.It's a common sense that bruiser did more damage than monk with same skill and quality gears. That's why more monks betrayed to bruisers but less bruisers betrayed to monks.

[EQ2Luv]

As someone already mentioned, the agi line favors bruisers because they have more damaging combat arts.  Yes the crane line sucks more for a bruiser solo, but its just as good if not better when you get the right buffs. I think the better question to ask is: why are all of the plate fighter AA so much better than brawlers?

[tt66]

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the better question to ask is: why are all of the plate fighter AA so much better than brawlers?</blockquote>Now THAT is a darn fine question, and one that we should put our collective efforts towards trying to get an answer from SOE about. Brothers and Sisters, Bruisers and Monks.. it matters not who has the worst AAs and who has the second worst! Let us strive towards a situation where one day we can argue over who has the best and the second best!

[ganjookie]

This sounds more like a troll posting then anything else.  Somebody has no clue about brawlers in general (OP).

[Antas22]

Complaining about AA's that are actually ENHANCED by our auto attack damage just because Monks auto-attack more? That's a switch. Cut it out, and delete this post, before they decide they need to nerf it to "balance" the two classes by making those pathetically few AA's also based on procs that don't scale with weapons and make us that much more useless in the endgame. We want more of this, not less. And no, it's pretty balanced--as things go in this game. For proc based, haste doesn't affect proc rates. For auto attack based, Monks will do it more, Bruisers will do it harder, same as anything.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Haste affects autoattack, and procs are based on pre-hasted autoattack delay for how often they go off. So yes, procs go off faster when you have more haste.The difference isn't that huge though, and it's not like we can't get haste ourselves. The problem monks are actually running into, is that they don't get benefits from being buffed in Haste like most other classes do, so they don't increase their damage as much from being raid buffed.In the end, what's more important is that we need our AA's to be brought up to speed with the other plate fighter AA choices.

[Antas22]

<cite>Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Haste affects autoattack, and procs are based on pre-hasted autoattack delay for how often they go off. So yes, procs go off faster when you have more haste.The difference isn't that huge though, and it's not like we can't get haste ourselves. The problem monks are actually running into, is that they don't get benefits from being buffed in Haste like most other classes do, so they don't increase their damage as much from being raid buffed.In the end, what's more important is that we need our AA's to be brought up to speed with the other plate fighter AA choices.</blockquote>Agreed on that last part. But re-read the OP. He's complaining about Crane Flock, one of our few AAs that's on par with a Warrior AA. It's auto attack based. Meaning for the Monk, he's attacking more (thus AE attacking more), for the Bruiser, he's hitting harder on those AEs, but doing so somewhat less often. His argument is just plain backwards. I think we can mostly agree, proc AAs < Auto attack enhancing AAs. The OP was complaining about perhaps our single best KoS acheivement.What we, the "DPS Tanks" get vs. what Warriors, the "Mitigation tanks" get:16% mid damage AE proc that scales only with level  - - 40% AE Auto-attack (thusly scaling with weapons)18.1% melee crit chance  - -  22.4% melee crit chance24% mid damge proc that scales only with level  - -  19.2 permanent DPS mod.12% reduction on reuse times, a mere 3.6 seconds off our 30 second arts  - -  18.6 permant Haste mod.and the kicker:96% Auto Attack, 20 DPS mod WHEN UNARMED (since weapons scale on a steep curve, while unarmed scales linearly, useless by tier 7)  - -  60% Double attack when using a 1 hander and buckler, offering uncontested avoidance along with scalability with better weapons.Yep, looks about right for "DPS tanks" to me.  ^^THAT'S what we should be [Removed for Content] about, not who's king of the neglected between us and Monks.

[Toy Dragon]

Because Bruisers are sexier and Monks need something to make up for it.But I see your point with the whole haste thing.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<cite>Antas@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Haste affects autoattack, and procs are based on pre-hasted autoattack delay for how often they go off. So yes, procs go off faster when you have more haste.The difference isn't that huge though, and it's not like we can't get haste ourselves. The problem monks are actually running into, is that they don't get benefits from being buffed in Haste like most other classes do, so they don't increase their damage as much from being raid buffed.In the end, what's more important is that we need our AA's to be brought up to speed with the other plate fighter AA choices.</blockquote>Agreed on that last part. But re-read the OP. He's complaining about Crane Flock, one of our few AAs that's on par with a Warrior AA. It's auto attack based. Meaning for the Monk, he's attacking more (thus AE attacking more), for the Bruiser, he's hitting harder on those AEs, but doing so somewhat less often. His argument is just plain backwards. I think we can mostly agree, proc AAs < Auto attack enhancing AAs. The OP was complaining about perhaps our single best KoS acheivement.What we, the "DPS Tanks" get vs. what Warriors, the "Mitigation tanks" get:16% mid damage AE proc that scales only with level  - - 40% AE Auto-attack (thusly scaling with weapons)18.1% melee crit chance  - -  22.4% melee crit chance24% mid damge proc that scales only with level  - -  19.2 permanent DPS mod.12% reduction on reuse times, a mere 3.6 seconds off our 30 second arts  - -  18.6 permant Haste mod.and the kicker:96% Auto Attack, 20 DPS mod WHEN UNARMED (since weapons scale on a steep curve, while unarmed scales linearly, useless by tier 7)  - -  60% Double attack when using a 1 hander and buckler, offering uncontested avoidance along with scalability with better weapons.Yep, looks about right for "DPS tanks" to me.  ^^THAT'S what we should be [I cannot control my vocabulary] about, not who's king of the neglected between us and Monks.</blockquote>I don't disagree in the slightest, in fact.. I'm one of the biggest proponents for changing our AA's to become more weapon oriented.My comment was strictly reserved for your comment that haste didn't affect procs. It does, but it's not making Monks uber powerful. I just don't like leaving incorrect information unanswered, heh.

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>Antas@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Haste affects autoattack, and procs are based on pre-hasted autoattack delay for how often they go off. So yes, procs go off faster when you have more haste.The difference isn't that huge though, and it's not like we can't get haste ourselves. The problem monks are actually running into, is that they don't get benefits from being buffed in Haste like most other classes do, so they don't increase their damage as much from being raid buffed.In the end, what's more important is that we need our AA's to be brought up to speed with the other plate fighter AA choices.</blockquote>Agreed on that last part. But re-read the OP. He's complaining about Crane Flock, one of our few AAs that's on par with a Warrior AA. It's auto attack based. Meaning for the Monk, he's attacking more (thus AE attacking more), for the Bruiser, he's hitting harder on those AEs, but doing so somewhat less often. His argument is just plain backwards. I think we can mostly agree, proc AAs < Auto attack enhancing AAs. The OP was complaining about perhaps our single best KoS acheivement.What we, the "DPS Tanks" get vs. what Warriors, the "Mitigation tanks" get:16% mid damage AE proc that scales only with level  - - 40% AE Auto-attack (thusly scaling with weapons)18.1% melee crit chance  - -  22.4% melee crit chance24% mid damge proc that scales only with level  - -  19.2 permanent DPS mod.12% reduction on reuse times, a mere 3.6 seconds off our 30 second arts  - -  18.6 permant Haste mod.and the kicker:96% Auto Attack, 20 DPS mod WHEN UNARMED (since weapons scale on a steep curve, while unarmed scales linearly, useless by tier 7)  - -  60% Double attack when using a 1 hander and buckler, offering uncontested avoidance along with scalability with better weapons.Yep, looks about right for "DPS tanks" to me.  ^^THAT'S what we should be [I cannot control my vocabulary] about, not who's king of the neglected between us and Monks.</blockquote>You forgot spin the mob backward vs.  an attack that hastes warrior by 36% AND increases casting speed  and recovery speed by 25%.Or you could compare it to our agi line that gives us 40-some percent recovery speed alone. no haste. no casting speed.  =O

[Antas22]

Heh, well, I was focusing on the permenant 3rd-in-line abilities. Although Warriors' INT-2 IS very sexy.

[Lord_Kronon]

<p>I am basing my whole argument on bruisers and monk hitting equally hard with autoattacks (which they do as far as I know). And if that is true, than Crane Flock for monk is almost twice as good as it is for bruiser.</p><p>But lets go through the math just to be safe. Lets assume that the bruiser is hasted to 20% and the monk to 100%. Lets also assume they do 100 in damage with each autoattack and they have 1.0 in basespeed. This means that the monks autoattacks has 200 DPS and the bruisers autoattack has 120 DPS.</p><p>Now, if each autoattack becomes doubled (as in Crane Flock), that would mean that the monk gets 400 DPS, which is 200 extra DPS, and the bruiser gets 240 DPS which is 120 extra DPS.</p><p>So, back to the question: why is Crane Flock so much better for a monk than for a bruiser?</p>

[Antas22]

You're basing your argument on a blatant falsehood. Bruisers buff DPS mod. DPS mod = more auto-attack damage. Story ends. If grouped together, sure, Monks get that DPS mod, but Bruisers also gets Monks' haste mod. So back to the original answer: It's not. Reading comprehension is your friend.

[Lord_Kronon]

<cite>Antas@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're basing your argument on a blatant falsehood. Bruisers buff DPS mod. DPS mod = more auto-attack damage. Story ends. If grouped together, sure, Monks get that DPS mod, but Bruisers also gets Monks' haste mod. So back to the original answer: It's not. Reading comprehension is your friend.</blockquote><p>So you are saying that monks and bruisers does the same DPS with autoattacks? Because thats not true from what I have heard, but I have only played a bruiser so I might be wrong.</p><p>However, if they do the same damage with auto attacks, they would also get the same DPS increase with Crane Flock.</p>

[Couching]

<cite>Lord_Kronon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Antas@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're basing your argument on a blatant falsehood. Bruisers buff DPS mod. DPS mod = more auto-attack damage. Story ends. If grouped together, sure, Monks get that DPS mod, but Bruisers also gets Monks' haste mod. So back to the original answer: It's not. Reading comprehension is your friend.</blockquote><p>So you are saying that monks and bruisers does the same DPS with autoattacks? Because thats not true from what I have heard, but I have only played a bruiser so I might be wrong.</p><p>However, if they do the same damage with auto attacks, they would also get the same DPS increase with Crane Flock.</p></blockquote>What's your problem? Most people replied that bruiser did HIGHER dps than monk no matter in solo/group/raid with equal gears. By my experience, i have both monk and bruiser, bruiser did higher dps than monk as well.Monk and bruiser are different even we share the same brawler tree. It didn't make any sense to keep whining that why some lines favor monk or bruiser. For example, bruisers get more dps increase from agi line. If you are unhappy with crane flock, respec to different line.

[Antas22]

<cite>Lord_Kronon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Antas@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're basing your argument on a blatant falsehood. Bruisers buff DPS mod. DPS mod = more auto-attack damage. Story ends. If grouped together, sure, Monks get that DPS mod, but Bruisers also gets Monks' haste mod. So back to the original answer: It's not. <b>Reading comprehension is your friend.</b></blockquote><p>So you are saying that monks and bruisers does the same DPS with autoattacks? Because thats not true from what I have heard, but I have only played a bruiser so I might be wrong.</p><p>However, if they do the same damage with auto attacks, they would also get the same DPS increase with Crane Flock.</p></blockquote>Oh, beautiful irony.