Best class for amends on raids with a pally tanking

[Jecogga]

<p>We have recently started using a pally for tanking on raids in EOF and KOS.  The raid leaders have started using warlocks as the amends target and the assassins and swashies are up in arms.  The warlocks being used, myself and one other, are usually at the top of the parse even when in the MT group wihtout the benefit of buffs from the mage group.  When in the MT group we usually just get VIM and if we ask maybe Syngerism.  This lowers our normal dps some but not by enough to put us close to the swashies and assassins.  The difference is usally 300 to 500 dps on small group encounters and on single targets if we get the Syngerism buff maybe a 100 points.  Of course longer encounters on single targets the spread will be wider.</p><p>My question is when does it make sense to have a warlock in the MT group over a swashie or assassin if ever?  The raid wide dps is usually around 2,000 for the warlocks as compared to 1400 to 1500 for the swashies and assassins.  The raid dps as a whole ranges from 19,000 to 21,000 depending on the zone.</p><p>Thanks</p><p> Jecogga</p>

[Agaxiq]

Amends typically goes to warlock on multi-target, and wizard on single target.I've rarely seen it go to any other class unless the sorcerers don't know their class well, or if the Pally is the MT and sorcerer simply isn't in the MT group.Only time I would really see a sorcerer being in MT group is if the Pally is the MT and you are doing LoA - in which case it would go on the warlock.agressivEdit: Your assassins and swashies are probably slacking.  They should be much closer to 2k themselves.  That or you don't have decent group setups because of missing classes etc.  If they (scouts) are stealing agro all the time without amends while only doing 1.5k then something is probably wrong with your tank <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Just guesswork, but it just doesn't seem right.

[Araxes]

Eaxactly.  I am Amended only in situations where the zone is pre-disposed to linked encounters.  Otherwise, it would be the wizard.  Under no circumstances should it be an assassin or swash because they have their own transfers.

[miliskel]

in loa i was amended and we would pull and as i dont have to detaunt i can just focused casting catalyst fhs apocalypse chaostormrift negative absolution chaostorm and mobs are dead no aggro for me or anyone else in the raid <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[DjVacant]

<cite>Jecogga wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>My question is when does it make sense to have a warlock in the MT group over a swashie or assassin if ever?  The raid wide dps is usually around 2,000 for the warlocks as compared to 1400 to 1500 for the swashies and assassins.  The raid dps as a whole ranges from 19,000 to 21,000 depending on the zone.</p></blockquote><p>Warlocks have an EoF buff called Vacuous that is actually really nice to have in the MT group, but I doubt the tanks taunt increase from Vacuous would overtake a scouts hate transfer.</p><p>Warlocks have a good amount of utility nowadays though...Vacuous and propogations are nice in any group (if you're specced for either).  So yeah...a MT group could benefit from a warlock being in it in many ways...</p><p>What kind of bard do you have in the MT group, btw?  (if any)</p>

[Roriondesexiest]

<cite>DjVacant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jecogga wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>My question is when does it make sense to have a warlock in the MT group over a swashie or assassin if ever?  The raid wide dps is usually around 2,000 for the warlocks as compared to 1400 to 1500 for the swashies and assassins.  The raid dps as a whole ranges from 19,000 to 21,000 depending on the zone.</p></blockquote><p>Warlocks have an EoF buff called Vacuous that is actually really nice to have in the MT group, but I doubt the tanks taunt increase from Vacuous would overtake a scouts hate transfer.</p><p>Warlocks have a good amount of utility nowadays though...Vacuous and propogations are nice in any group (if you're specced for either).  So yeah...a MT group could benefit from a warlock being in it in many ways...</p><p>What kind of bard do you have in the MT group, btw?  (if any)</p></blockquote><p>MT group</p><p>Pally, Dirge, Templar, Fury, Defiler, Warlock</p><p>We have the best luck with the warlock ammended because of the overall AOE DPS.  While swashy's do ok having a high parsing warlock in the MT group avoids the other warlock and aoe classes from getting mobs that peel off the MT.</p>

[Agaxiq]

Without Aria (Dissonant Note) and PoM (Precise Note) from a Troub the warlock will lose a significant amount of DPS.  You also won't be able to get TC from an Illusionist.  It will be difficult for a warlock to outparse a swash in the MT group unless you are doing an AOE-centric zone, and even then, it will be close.   Hopefully the templar went down the INT line with Divine Recovery for a nice boost in casting speed when needed.And if the zone might have a decent amount of multi-mob groups (like labs) - remember that many of those mobs AOE themselves - and kill dumbfires.  Broodlings are like 10% or so of my DPS and in labs its 1/4 of that because they are always getting killed.However in LoA, dumbfires generally go their full duration and there are many multi-mob groups - in which case, the warlock is a decent fit for MT group. agressiv

[Dualblades]

<p>I have been on a few raids now where I have been the MT amends target and I absolutely love it.</p><p>assuming the warlocks any good , not having agro issues at all and being able to go all out from the first seconds of the fight is really good fun and absolutely "locks" agro on the tank.</p><p>Couple of things that need to be cleared are that there is almost nothing in it between a good Wizard and good Warlock for single target DPS and a warlock with zero agro issues will wipe the floor on large group parses (not so much on smaller groups). </p><p>I have played with some extremely good wizards and another good warlock and to be perfectly honest at top end we all parse very similar and this is also true with both summoner classes, any 1 of the 4  classes can and does win single target parses and even on aoe while warlocks and conjureres have a slight edge there still isnt that much in it between all 4.</p><p>A good swashie will give great aoe hate and is the obvious MT agro transfer for any other class than a Paladin.</p><p>However this post is about Amends and for me Warlock plus amends and a dirge makes for a very good hate setup. (remember dirge buffs arent exactly useless to a warlock so you can still parse very decently) in fact I think this is about as good as it gets in the zones with lots of encounters rather than singles.</p>

[knightofround]

My Pally MT group would be:PaladinCoercerWarlockDefilerTemplarFuryThe rationale being that it's best for a cloth to be amended since they have the most problems with aggro control. Hate transferers can always dump it on a healer and be fine; besides, they can get better buffs in other groups.A dirge is wasted on a caster-healer group, and paladins get a big chunk of their DPS from spells anyway. The defiler-templar combo is still needed for HP buffage, but with a stronger emphasis on magical damage I'd prefer the fury over the warden. (The only exception being OJ content)

[Agaxiq]

<cite>knightofround wrote:</cite><blockquote>My Pally MT group would be:PaladinCoercerWarlockDefilerTemplarFuryThe rationale being that it's best for a cloth to be amended since they have the most problems with aggro control. Hate transferers can always dump it on a healer and be fine; besides, they can get better buffs in other groups.A dirge is wasted on a caster-healer group, and paladins get a big chunk of their DPS from spells anyway. The defiler-templar combo is still needed for HP buffage, but with a stronger emphasis on magical damage I'd prefer the fury over the warden. (The only exception being OJ content)</blockquote>In this group, the warlock is going to be severely capped with DPS.  No bard at all?  Hopefully they will at least have a synergism, because they will have trouble breaking 1.5k on single targets with the slow cast speed, no DKTM, and no Troub buffs like Aria and PoM.  Maybe the Templar can do their AE cast speed buff whenever possible, assuming they went down that line, when they have time.You are better off putting a swashy here.  At least they can get a good DPS buff from the Coercer, and they will do 50% more damage with equal if not lower skill level, and their AE damage output will be substantial.At least a dirge has some good melee buffs for the tank, as well as DKTM and a casting speed buff that the 2 healers can use as well.  I don't see a Fury in the MT group, the bards buffs are way better than the furies.agressiv

[miliskel]

wow, 1.5k on singles? with the proc kit i got i cant do that much on singles without focused casting ..encounters u really cant limit the dps <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[knightofround]

<div > <span class="genmed"><span style="color: #99ccff;">Agaxax</span></span> </div> ,You make some excellent points. You're right, a dirge would make more sense over the fury; especially with the amount of self-heals that the paladin has. But pairing paladins and hate transferers is foolish; if two people place their aggro transfers on each other, only the strongest one takes precedence. I suppose the paladin could put amends on the dirge and have the swash/[Removed for Content]/coercer xfer hate to them, but you're going to end up over-capping aggro transfer, and the bulk of it weaksauce coming from the dirge.Not to mention that the swash can toggle on their dehates and transfers to do more dps for the raid in non-MT groups. Sorcerers can't do that.

[Agaxiq]

Here would be an odd MT group if you want a warlock in it:PaladinWarlockIllusionistDirgeTemplarDefiler"Illusionist in the MT group?"Yeah, its not perfect, but if you have a 2nd illusionist, this might work.  Amends on the WarlockTC on the Warlock + SynergismRapidity on the Paladin + DirgeIA on the Paladin if he still can't hold agro; otherwise the DirgeWith the amount of hate transfer the Warlock is dishing out I'd wonder if you put a Troub here.... would be funny.  Troubs still have some decent melee buffs, just like Dirges still have some decent casting buffs.  Plus, Savante would be nice on some of the fights where the MT group is gasping for power.I'm sure you can still pick it apart, but in this case the Warlock can really shine without much fear of death - but for a zone like LoA would make for some interesting parses.agressiv

[TheBu]

<p>first off the swashies and assassins can send to (alot of) hate to someone else..  and they have better mit and avoid.they do on the other hand start off with more dps in general</p><p>on solo names really would need to see who parses higher. normally not a warlock, but really in this game it just depends.</p><p>as a caster i would hate to lose out on wizy and trubs procs.</p>

[khufure]

My favorite MT paladin group:PaladinWarlockMysticTemplarDirgeCoercerThe Paladin wears tons of proc gear, offensive stance,  2hander <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.   Warlock every item should be a proc item.   + proc from virtually every class!  I wonder if replacing the coercer with a second warlock for 2x propogation would be interesting.

[miliskel]

im sure in lyceum u could havepallymystic(ancestary)warlock(propogations do stack)warlock(propogations)warlock(propogations)di rge(luck of the dirge)the procs would be insane.....

[Prrasha]

<cite>miliskel wrote:</cite><blockquote>im sure in lyceum u could havepallymystic(ancestary)warlock(propogations do stack)warlock(propogations)warlock(propogations)di rge(luck of the dirge)the procs would be insane.....</blockquote>Tho I've never been in a position to test it, I'd heard that there was a cap on procs at 2X the normal proc rate.  Since "most" procs in the game are 9% (1.8 procs per minute), that third warlock isn't doing much for anyone's procs, and the second one isn't helping whoever's been Ancestried.  Probably better to replace at least one with a different class who can bring more stacking proc buffs.If I've been lied to about proc rates, give this a shot. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[miliskel]

doh! i guess then pally mystic warlock warlock dirge (as im sure dirges doesnt afffect the cap) and some proc crazy cleric

[Jaroth Cloudwalk]

Proc chance does max out at 2 times the base proc rate.

[Roriondesexiest]

<p>Yeah I have been toying with the idea of dropping our 3rd healer and putting in an illusionist.  Hehe though my scouts or mages would be mad if they lost the one out of their group.</p>