NO. PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THE CURRENT TITLE SYTEM

[Earthshine]

<p> This post is in opposition to the proposed change in the title system. Fame/infamy encourages pvp as much as it can potentially discourage it. From alot of the posts on the topic and also from in game behavior/dialog, it is a safe assumption that people cherish their titles and are also afraid of losing them. Two observations I have made that are particularly important to this argument are 1. that untitled players will run from one vs. one simply because they are afraid of dying, not losing fame, and 2. people that just took a fame hit will fight feverishly to regain that lost fame because now they really have nothing to lose, unless they care about KvD ratio. These observations conclude that fame loss is not the only factor that discourages PvP and also that the potential of regaining lost fame actually encourages it. The proposed changes make it so that people will NEVER LOSE THIER PRECIOUS TITLE. Sure, you can implement title decay and no fame loss for death, and what you will have is the old Honor system of World of Warcraft. The WoW honor system was abandoned and they implemented a rewards system for the more "casual" player. It is a misconception to believe that removing fame from PvP will somehow help the behavior of people who are considered to "exploit" the current system.</p><p> Removing fame/infamy from PvP is not going to stop people from running away from uneven odds, nor is it goin to stop people from gank grinding for a title they now have to maintain (or purchase from the city merchant). Before changing an aspect of PvP that is favored by a large portion of the player base, why not fix two things that would actually help a players odds of survival? Namely ZERGING and the damage ratio of red vs. grey cons. It seems that a larger majority of PvPrs are more concerned with these last two problems than they are with the current title system. First, zerging turns an even battle into an unrealistic outcome, nuff said- it NEEDS to be fixed. Second, no way should a group of greys 10-20 levels below a single red PC be victorious with no casualties. For example, a raid x2 cannot down a red con x2 mob in PvE within that range, and they would be lucky to win even if it conned orange to the entire group. The damage ratio as it stands seriously undercuts the abilities and "heroic" status of a veteran player earned in levels.</p><p> The PvP title system is unique from other titles in the game because of the fame factor. All other in-game titles are from grinding (creature slayer status), faction (tradeskill or guild), or accomplishment (heritage quests). Propose to make it so that you must belong to a guild to purchase a PvP title? This would destroy anything worthwhile associated with PvP titles. It would produce a situation where only people with high level alts would be able to afford/obtain a title for thier low level twink, much the same way one might see a level 14 on a nightmare or mistrunner.</p><p> There are people who PvP for fun, there are those who PvP for faction, and there are those who PvP for titles. To fix every problem in PvP you should also remove faction based on PvP since people will just run around ganking for faction then sit on docks til everyone is off recent; if not removing fame has served no productive consequence since the undesired behavior has not changed. Instead of running/zoning/evacing to avoid a fame hit it will be done to simply deny the opposing faction a moment of glory and that small step towards buying or earning a PvP title. Then you would simply have to remove PvP altogether because people will just run around ganking people just for the fun of it because there isnt any other reward involved except for a brief moment of laughter. For me, its hard to understand why people complain about not being able to harvest or quest in peace on a PvP server; and who isnt guilty of running from an orange con or snuffing a green con who is engaged in a PvE battle. ITS A PVP SERVER. ITS BRUTAL. ITS NOT FAIR. </p><p> Personally, I have never held a high rank but I would rather earn it through RISK AND REWARD than grind it and buy it. I have soloed, grouped, ganked, and challenged uneven odds as Im sure the majority of PvPrs have and I hope people reply to this post in favor of opposing the proposed changes.</p>

[G1Joe]

<p>[Removed for Content] me to many words too close together lucky I can touch type as I now have snow blindness!</p><p>The system rewards the runners that is not good period. As long as they do something to change that (oh and charming you into mobs grrr - SS you know who you are) then fine keep titles. </p>

[Norrsken]

I remember when the servers came online, and the following month or two. Not many ran. then over time, it went more and more towards running. No, untitled players dont run to protect a title. they follow a pattern that was taught by the infamy system that actually rewards people for not taking on even fights. Just a matter of not giving the incentive to duke it out no matter the odds having brought forth a system where people run no matter if they stand anything to lose, because thats the way they play. And honestly, if an x2 of people try to take on an x2 of other players 20 lvls their seniors, they wouldnt stand a chance. Much like how it is in pve. If an x2 of people went for a solo mob 20 levels above them, they would probably pull it off, perhaps even without casualties. Single players are solo mobs in that regard.

[-Arctura-]

(( I fully support the STAY-THE-SAME of the title system <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Earthshine]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>I remember when the servers came online, and the following month or two. Not many ran. then over time, it went more and more towards running. No, untitled players dont run to protect a title. they follow a pattern that was taught by the infamy system that actually rewards people for not taking on even fights. Just a matter of not giving the incentive to duke it out no matter the odds having brought forth a system where people run no matter if they stand anything to lose, because thats the way they play. And honestly, if an x2 of people try to take on an x2 of other players 20 lvls their seniors, they wouldnt stand a chance. Much like how it is in pve. If an x2 of people went for a solo mob 20 levels above them, they would probably pull it off, perhaps even without casualties. Single players are solo mobs in that regard. </blockquote><p> Running from certain death isnt a pattern that was taught by the title system- its human nature even if its just a game. Will taking away something to fight for actually help PvP? If someone runs from even odds in fear of losing a title its fair to say they will not stand and fight long enough to keep that title if that is their behavior. And running from someone they just beat to deny that person a chance to regain lost fame is the same situation you will have wether or not fame decay is introduced. </p><p>The system as it stands rewards people for "risk and reward". Sure, there is no risk against a green con or running around in a gank squad, but there is absolutley no risk if fame loss for death is removed. It will turn PvP into a faction grind that will only encourage more ganking and uneven encounters. </p><p> And, in regard to the damage ratio in PvP vs. PvE, my lowbie alt was in a x3 of levels 13 -19 with a 24 tank against windstalker rumbler (a x2 mob no less) and got wiped. The 5 healers simply did not have enough power to keep the tank up. Maybe the tank was undergeared, everyone was [Removed for Content]- who knows. Point is, in that particular situation numbers were not enuf. As far as PC's being considered a single mob fine; but why can i take on 20+ mobs 20 levels lower than me and survive without a scratch yet I get pwned in da face by a group of grey conned players? Its because of imbalanced game mechanics.</p>

[Norrsken]

<cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>I remember when the servers came online, and the following month or two. Not many ran. then over time, it went more and more towards running. No, untitled players dont run to protect a title. they follow a pattern that was taught by the infamy system that actually rewards people for not taking on even fights. Just a matter of not giving the incentive to duke it out no matter the odds having brought forth a system where people run no matter if they stand anything to lose, because thats the way they play. And honestly, if an x2 of people try to take on an x2 of other players 20 lvls their seniors, they wouldnt stand a chance. Much like how it is in pve. If an x2 of people went for a solo mob 20 levels above them, they would probably pull it off, perhaps even without casualties. Single players are solo mobs in that regard. </blockquote><p> Running from certain death isnt a pattern that was taught by the title system- its human nature even if its just a game. Will taking away something to fight for actually help PvP? If someone runs from even odds in fear of losing a title its fair to say they will not stand and fight long enough to keep that title if that is their behavior. And running from someone they just beat to deny that person a chance to regain lost fame is the same situation you will have wether or not fame decay is introduced. </p><p>The system as it stands rewards people for "risk and reward". Sure, there is no risk against a green con or running around in a gank squad, but there is absolutley no risk if fame loss for death is removed. It will turn PvP into a faction grind that will only encourage more ganking and uneven encounters. </p><p> And, in regard to the damage ratio in PvP vs. PvE, my lowbie alt was in a x3 of levels 13 -19 with a 24 tank against windstalker rumbler (a x2 mob no less) and got wiped. The 5 healers simply did not have enough power to keep the tank up. Maybe the tank was undergeared, everyone was [Removed for Content]- who knows. Point is, in that particular situation numbers were not enuf. As far as PC's being considered a single mob fine; but why can i take on 20+ mobs 20 levels lower than me and survive without a scratch yet I get pwned in da face by a group of grey conned players? Its because of imbalanced game mechanics.</p></blockquote>then why did people not run the first couple of months of pvp servers? and the reason for removing the death penalty is that it encourages people not to pvp. I know I for one am not on a pvp server to run away, Im here to fight. Dunno why I'd want a system that encourages running really.

[yellowbelly08]

<p>True fame/infamy does encourage pvp but it also encourages running so as posted many times elsewhere keep fame and titles but lose fame loss and replace it with fame decay kktnx move along.</p><p>Galoro</p>

[Earthshine]

<cite>G1Joe wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>[I cannot control my vocabulary] me to many words too close together lucky I can touch type as I now have snow blindness!</p><p>The system rewards the runners that is not good period. As long as they do something to change that (oh and charming you into mobs grrr - SS you know who you are) then fine keep titles. </p></blockquote><p> The rewards system does not reward runners as you have to actually engage in PvP to even get a title. However, it doesnt reward people who cant catch the runners either, and it seems people are trying to find a way to make it so people will stand there and let you kill them. </p><p>One arguement being put forth rather strongly is that the current system rewards runners. It is simply not true. The only real reward in PvP is either a title or pvp gear. Taking fame away or introducing title decay will still lead to people running to deny someone of fame or faction, but it will not make it so people will stick around to offer someone a chance to regain lost fame. People get mad cos they cant fight someone they know they can kill, even if its even odds and they start screaming for change because someone ran. Please reread my post and pray to the dev gods that they fix the things that are actually a problem and not cater to a few individuals that insist on a /duel system on a pvp server.</p>

[Earthshine]

Why did they not run? Because there was nothing to lose and everything to gain. After it became that there was something to lose the system was fully in place and risk and reward sank in. People keep saying that it encourages running. What it really does is encourage full out war using everything to a persons advantage. Someone ran and denied the enemy of a kill? Call him a coward, but he still won the fight leaving you frustrated and discontent.

[Earthshine]

<cite>yellowbelly08 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>True fame/infamy does encourage pvp but it also encourages running so as posted many times elsewhere keep fame and titles but lose fame loss and replace it with fame decay kktnx move along.</p><p>Galoro</p></blockquote> Replacing fame loss with decay will not stop someone from running to deny another of a kill. It will however present a situation where a green con will stand and fight against an orange con simply because there is nothing to lose. Fame decay will however hurt every other aspect of the game, while not helping what some people would like to believe as an ever so common complaint. PvP intends to make the game as a whole more challenging, but who will be able to maintain a title unless they do nothing else BUT PvP.

[Gimet]

In game, out of game, whatever. Fame decay is inneffective as it FORCES you to PvP. What if someone doesn't want to PvP that day or quite simply there's no one to PvP that day. You're going to punish both of thos epoeple with fame decay? Fame decay is WRONG.

[piro]

<p>I would say leave as is, personally im not a very good pvper highest title has been slayer.</p><p>We just need something more to keep people pvping hell even just getting more people pvping would be awsome. </p><p>This game was built for using everything to your advantage such things as running, useing the lay of the land, guards and pretty much anything else you can come up with as long as you arnt doing things that would be considered hacks. I dont understand why these are such a problem for alot of people. it gets done to me and i do it to back. There aint nothing better than almost dieing making it to a roaming guard and circleing just out of range of your foe till they make a horrible mistake of getting just a hair to close and it over for em on top of that this certianly is not a sure way to win ive been gun down alot doing that. The point is i dont care about titles and ill do whatever i can to win and theres alot of other people who do the same thing. people who do the bad things like camping out for fear of dieing and losing titles are in the minority of this stuff </p>

[Dh]

<p>The current system DOES encourage runners and makes people jump off the world and minimize. They keep the game minimized for a few minutes until they are no longer in combat and restore the game. They finally "zone" to their death without losing fame.  People actually do this all day long in KoS. </p><p>You can argue all you want, but this would NEVER happen if they removed fame loss and implemented a fame decay system. The game would be MUCH more fun because people would stick it out when its going to be a close fight.  People that are actually good at killing people would have the fame.</p>

[Amphibia]

Enlocke@Vox wrote: <blockquote>In game, out of game, whatever. Fame decay is inneffective as it FORCES you to PvP. What if someone doesn't want to PvP that day or quite simply there's no one to PvP that day. You're going to punish both of thos epoeple with fame decay? Fame decay is WRONG.</blockquote>What about everyone running from even fights all the time, because the fear of losing their title is too great? What about scouts having every advantage over all other classes because of stealth, evac and track? I'm tired of playing Everscout 2 tbh, and I know I'm not the only one....  A decay based system could easily be adjusted so that it would suit as many as possible, and allow plenty of in-game time to do other things than PvP. If someone choose to only PvP once every blue moon though, they probably don't care anyway....

[Dh]

I have a Master title <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=536039121" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=536039121</a> so its not like I couldn't get one with the current system.  I would have had WAY more fun with a no fame lose and fame decay system tho =P

[Earthshine]

Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><p>The current system DOES encourage runners and makes people jump off the world and minimize. They keep the game minimized for a few minutes until they are no longer in combat and restore the game. They finally "zone" to their death without losing fame.  People actually do this all day long in KoS. </p><p>You can argue all you want, but this would NEVER happen if they removed fame loss and implemented a fame decay system. The game would be MUCH more fun because people would stick it out when its going to be a close fight.  People that are actually good at killing people would have the fame.</p></blockquote> It encourages survival, even if it means running. People that currently have titles ARE good at killing- they are also good at NOT DYING. Replace fame loss with fame decay and you have a meaningless hack and slash scenario with nothing to lose. From what I gather from people begging for change is that they dont like it when they are denied a kill. They want to propose a change they feel will encourage others to suicide so they have a better chance at getting a title. It seems that people pushing for change care more about titles than the ones running to keep from losing it. Also, /camping and banking fame.. wouldn't there be MORE of that so that the decay timer would stop running?

[kreepr]

<cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nosiop@Vox wrote: <blockquote><p>The current system DOES encourage runners and makes people jump off the world and minimize. They keep the game minimized for a few minutes until they are no longer in combat and restore the game. They finally "zone" to their death without losing fame.  People actually do this all day long in KoS. </p><p>You can argue all you want, but this would NEVER happen if they removed fame loss and implemented a fame decay system. The game would be MUCH more fun because people would stick it out when its going to be a close fight.  People that are actually good at killing people would have the fame.</p></blockquote> It encourages survival, even if it means running. People that currently have titles ARE good at killing- they are also good at NOT DYING. Replace fame loss with fame decay and you have a meaningless hack and slash scenario with nothing to lose. From what I gather from people begging for change is that they dont like it when they are denied a kill. They want to propose a change they feel will encourage others to suicide so they have a better chance at getting a title. It seems that people pushing for change care more about titles than the ones running to keep from losing it. Also, /camping and banking fame.. wouldn't there be MORE of that so that the decay timer would stop running?</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000">So when this change goes threw cause it will happen, what do you think there excuse will be for runners? Wanna recap on all the changes that would solve the RUNNING in EQ2 PVP?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">OK off the top of my head there was take away escape in PVP, just made people a little more picky about there fights. No zone after engaging in PVP. LOL yeah that helped, to keep people from attacking and now they just zone. Make the change and people will still run cause......... Wait for it, Wait for it THEY DONT WANT TO DIE.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">Next people will complain about tokens, people will run cause they don't want to drop tokens. OH yeah, people already do that. God people get over it, people don't want to die that's the thing you will never change. The only way you will get people to stop running is reward them for dieing then it will stop. Yeah then people will complain that soandso gets killed more so there class needs nerfed to be stronger...........HUMMMMMM</span> </p>

[Xunen]

<cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>No way should a group of greys 10-20 levels below a single red PC be victorious with no casualties. For example, a raid x2 cannot down a red con x2 mob in PvE within that range, and they would be lucky to win even if it conned orange to the entire group. The damage ratio as it stands seriously undercuts the abilities and "heroic" status of a veteran player earned in levels.</p></blockquote><p>First of all, are you kidding me? In Sinking Sands there is a 10 Level range, players 10 Level above you con red to you. And why shouldn't a whole group be able to take out a single player within Level range? Think before you post, thanks.</p><p>And second, you actually have no clue of raiding. When the game first came out, Darathar was beaten while he was red. And yes, that was x4 raid versus x4 PvE NPC, I also remember some raid guild take him out with three groups. Or take the Level 80 x2 mob in Unrest for example, a single group can take out that mob, red con. And by the way, if a heroic group kills a single red con, thats not like an epic x2 kills an epic x2 PvE mob, but more like heroic versus solo. Again, think before you post.</p>

[Spyderbite]

<cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Running from certain death isnt a pattern that was taught by the title system- its human nature even if its just a game.</p></blockquote>I'm glads I'm s'a 'Tonga then! I never runs from a fight! Especially when I smells cheeeeseeee!!!(If it were human nature.. everyone would do it.. but as most have noticed, and thus the request for the change to the title system.. majority of the runners are those protecting titles.. facts are facts)

[Cyst]

<p>Dreamshadow</p><p>The current system does reward runners, that's why scouts who can evac from uneven odds, or Furies, Rangers, Bards, and sometimes Wardens with faster run speeds have much higher titles than say Guardians, Templars, Inquisitors, Warlocks, et cetera. The current system favors people who can get away from uneven odds, while it penalizes those who can't. It also favors gank groups a great deal.</p><p>However, I want to know; "I've earned my title" and not see hundreds of Masters or Overseers running around because they have no chance of losing their titles.</p>

[Tatate]

I just want to see respectful, honorable players who will fight, and die, and not care...and just play for the fun of it...just get rid of titles imho. I'd also like to see people on these forums show more respect to each other, and in-game...

[Earthshine]

<cite>Xunen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>No way should a group of greys 10-20 levels below a single red PC be victorious with no casualties. For example, a raid x2 cannot down a red con x2 mob in PvE within that range, and they would be lucky to win even if it conned orange to the entire group. The damage ratio as it stands seriously undercuts the abilities and "heroic" status of a veteran player earned in levels.</p></blockquote><p>First of all, are you kidding me? In Sinking Sands there is a 10 Level range, players 10 Level above you con red to you. And why shouldn't a whole group be able to take out a single player within Level range? Think before you post, thanks.</p><p>And second, you actually have no clue of raiding. When the game first came out, Darathar was beaten while he was red. And yes, that was x4 raid versus x4 PvE NPC, I also remember some raid guild take him out with three groups. Or take the Level 80 x2 mob in Unrest for example, a single group can take out that mob, red con. And by the way, if a heroic group kills a single red con, thats not like an epic x2 kills an epic x2 PvE mob, but more like heroic versus solo. Again, think before you post.</p></blockquote><p>It certainly depends on the group and the mob, no doubt- but trust me I have put the thought into what I have wirtten. Take a X4 of level 50s and try and down the Pattern Juggler. I also realize there are some zones like the condemned catacombs that contain X2 mobs yet only a single group are allowed inside. Im not not saying it shouldnt be possible, I'm saying that a lvl 70 should stand a much better chance against a x2 of level 40s, or even against a group of level 50-60s than they currently do. </p><p>Also, the arguement is about proposed changes in PvP- please agree or disagree with the topic- thanks</p>

[Earthshine]

<cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dreamshadow</p><p>The current system does reward runners, that's why scouts who can evac from uneven odds, or Furies, Rangers, Bards, and sometimes Wardens with faster run speeds have much higher titles than say Guardians, Templars, Inquisitors, Warlocks, et cetera. The current system favors people who can get away from uneven odds, while it penalizes those who can't. It also favors gank groups a great deal.</p><p>However, I want to know; "I've earned my title" and not see hundreds of Masters or Overseers running around because they have no chance of losing their titles.</p></blockquote><p>Im not saying there arent title huggers. Im saying that changing the system regarding titles isnt going to change the things people are complaining about. There are other things that can be fixed before revamping an entire system to no effect. I agreee some classes need to be buffed in PvP, but some classes have specific functions and aren't built to run around by themselves. If everyone wasn't so concerned with SOLOING they wouldnt complain that thier guard has no chance against a single fury. If people really wanted a sick PvP "group" they would gather all of the right elements and put others to shame. </p><p>And its not the title system that favors runners- its the specific class abilitites that favor certain classes. On venekor I have yet to see an Overseer- Ive seen maybe 2 or 3 generals and none of them were scouts or druids (brig- [guess one was a scout lol], inq, and maybe one was a druid idk). The way it is people are complaining that people run from a "fair fight" to protect titles. The problem with that arguement is that on a PvP server there is no such thing as a fair fight. People believe replacing fame loss with fame decay will result in more pvp- on the contrary people will PvP when there is someone to kill and not even log-in or camp when the battlefield is barren. </p><p>"Be careful what you wish for"</p>

[Earthshine]

<cite>Zatia@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just want to see respectful, honorable players who will fight, and die, and not care...and just play for the fun of it...just get rid of titles imho. I'd also like to see people on these forums show more respect to each other, and in-game...</blockquote>

[Earthshine]

<cite>Zatia@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just want to see respectful, honorable players who will fight, and die, and not care...and just play for the fun of it...just get rid of titles imho. I'd also like to see people on these forums show more respect to each other, and in-game...</blockquote><p>Zatia, I have fought many players who actually had some sense of honor- those who would actually wait for me to regen after killing a mob to take me on at full power so they could fight with a challenge instead of just simply gank. And most people I have ran with do play for fun- its a very small portion of the player base with no virtue. But as far as titles are concerned, why have titles for anything, includng PvP- why not get rid of HQ titles? because people will not try as hard to do them. Get rid of PvP titles- people will care less about PvP. Personally Im more concerned with faction at this point in the game- but what happens when faction is maxed out? the only reward is the title. Why shouldnt a player be able to max out their character and strive for Overseer at level 70 with an established group of warriors rather than have to contstantly grind to maintain a decaying title? If people are wasting their game time to get a dreadnaught or champ title so they can sit around and show it off- hey they pay to play so be it. If I see an Overseer I would expect that character to be in fully fabled raid gear at max level, not a level 30 guard-scout-druid-whatever who was able to maintain a title through constant grinding.</p><p>People are argueing that players run to protect titles, or maybe depending on the class that they can't get away to protect theirs- Ultimately there needs to be some risk involved or that element of fear is lost and PvP becomes dry and undesired. If everyone just fights dies and not cares then we dont have a very realistic sense of battle.</p>

[Cyst]

<p>No amount of CLASS fixing will allow classes who have very low out of combat speeds, and no evac, to maintain a high title unless they always group up. This system rewards people who're good at running, and good at getting away from gank groups.</p><p>This coming from a Ranger, mind you.</p>

[Gane]

<p>I DON'T HAVE A TITLE SO DO WHAT EVER THE S-WORD YOU WANT.PS.  Why is a title so [Removed for Content] important?  IMO, it should be kill or be killed, not "kill to get words above your avatar".  Also, to the blue clothy I killed last night, 1)  I apologize, 2)  I'm very sorry, I feel guilty, 3)  You put up a decent fight, 4)  I hope I gave you enough recovering time after you killed that mob to have half a chance of, at very least, getting away <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I don't know that I'm cut out for PVP if I feel bad for killing blue squishies.  However, I do not feel sorry for kicking the snot out that blue dreadnaught...wait what was I saying, oh yeah, GIMMIE MY TITLE</p>

[tiredang]

<cite>Xunen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>No way should a group of greys 10-20 levels below a single red PC be victorious with no casualties. For example, a raid x2 cannot down a red con x2 mob in PvE within that range, and they would be lucky to win even if it conned orange to the entire group. The damage ratio as it stands seriously undercuts the abilities and "heroic" status of a veteran player earned in levels.</p></blockquote><p>First of all, are you kidding me? In Sinking Sands there is a 10 Level range, players 10 Level above you con red to you. And why shouldn't a whole group be able to take out a single player within Level range? Think before you post, thanks.</p><p>And second, you actually have no clue of raiding. When the game first came out, Darathar was beaten while he was red. And yes, that was x4 raid versus x4 PvE NPC, I also remember some raid guild take him out with three groups. Or take the Level 80 x2 mob in Unrest for example, a single group can take out that mob, red con. And by the way, if a heroic group kills a single red con, thats not like an epic x2 kills an epic x2 PvE mob, but more like heroic versus solo. Again, think before you post.</p></blockquote>now lets get for REAL.  You aren't seriously comparing raiding pre-lu13 with PvP now.  The fights were completely different, the way things were hit (and how hard they hit) were completely different.  I can tell you pre-lu-13 things that were trivial were suddenly HARD after the combat changes.  Darathar is a really good example of that.  He could be 3-grouped pre-lu13 as long as at least one healer in each group could insta-group-cure, but after LU-13, forget it. 

[Amphibia]

<cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>No amount of CLASS fixing will allow classes who have very low out of combat speeds, and no evac, to maintain a high title unless they always group up. This system rewards people who're good at running, and good at getting away from gank groups.</p><p>This coming from a Ranger, mind you.</p></blockquote>Exactly. This is so true, and I find it amazing that some people seem to ignore this completely....

[k9quaint]

I love that the titles make people try to run if they are afraid of losing. If I want to fight things that stand still and mindlessly zerg me, I will play on a PvE server.Classes with no snare/root need to group for pvp. If everyone grouped, rangers would be largely out of business.

[Gane]

if someone runs and gets away, i just hunt them down later.  If i have to, i'll borrow a scout.

[kreepr]

<cite>k9quaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>I love that the titles make people try to run if they are afraid of losing. If I want to fight things that stand still and mindlessly zerg me, I will play on a PvE server.Classes with no snare/root need to group for pvp. If everyone grouped, rangers would be largely out of business.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Exactly. This is so true, and I find it amazing that some people seem to ignore this completely.... </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I stole this right from Amphibia cause its so fitting.</span></p>

[Cyst]

<p>Dreamshadow</p><p>I have a good example of why the system needs to change, based off my PvP tonight on my 37 Warlock.</p><p>{{**First incident**}}</p><p>I bait an Assassin into attacking me, he does, I kill him. He brings a Brigand friend after a short period of time, and I kill them both. They then come back to my hunting spot and because I don't feel like leaving, and I don't have track to see anyone else who might be with them, I fight for my spot, my right to be there. Low and behold they had a healer hiding out of my line of sight who showed up after I engaged, and the three of them kill me.</p><p>A scout would have seen them all on track, evac'd or just ran, out running them.</p><p>That one death is more of a penalty to me, than the wins even against superior odds is a reward for me. Had I tried to sprint away, they could have easily killed me any how.</p><p>((**Second incident**}}</p><p>An assassin and dirge jump me, and I engage the fight because I know I can't out run a Bard who still has great in-combat runspeed and I know I have to get the assassin dead to minimize the damage. So I put the hurt to the assassin not noticing the dirge has yet to engage, noticing this I knew what was coming next. I am spanking the assassin and the dirge evacs them both away. They then come back with two others, and four people roll me, but not before I kill one of them because they had no healer. I gained nothing for fighting, but lost a ton because I had no other choice, but fight. Scouts could have run away, or evac'd, I couldn't.</p><p>{{**Third incident**}}</p><p>An Assassin and Fury jumps me, I stand and fight like a good little boy, rooting the Fury and leading the Assassin out of the Furies heal range and kill the Assassin, root breaks and the Fury kills me. Again, I fight against the odds and come out on the losing end.</p><p>But here is the kicker.. I'm forced to fight the odds, because I can't out run them, and I can't evac away.  So in every one of those situations a Scout who isn't going to fight is awarded because he loses no fame when he evac's, or runs, and I'm penalized because I am forced to fight against the odds, yet I'm not rewarded for it.</p>

[innervoid]

I vote to keep the title fame gain/loss the same. Titles should be precious and should be able to be lost and gained period.If people want to be "uber" and never lose their title they go play a carebear game like WoW. As it stands (to some degree) if someone has a Dreadnaught title it means something. If titles could never be lost, it just means the person farms a lot and means squat.The only changes I would like to see are the following:1) A nerf to zerging: if you get jumped by more than an even number (you are grouped and jumped by a x2) the amount of fame loss is taken into account and reduced considerably (not sure if that is the case). Furthermore their fame and status gained is decreased significantly. And if you lose, the hits are in the opposite direction where if you are the zerg and lose you lose a much larger amount of fame, and the smaller group that wins gains a large amount of fame and status2) If you kill someone and they come back and attack you and you kill them again, you again get fame and status and they lose fame. This will stop people just being stupid and attacking with little chance of winning and annoying you since they know there is no hit to them3) The 1 level of fame title in difference should disappear (I believe that is how it is now). So if a hunter kills a champ the hunter, he/she should gain way more fame than usual, etc. This also applies to if the champ kills a hunter, they should still be able to gain some fame for a new title even though it's just a hunter. If Mike Tyson (when he was the champ) beat up like 50 no namers (but still professional boxers) it's still a feat and he would get fame for it...not much, but a 50/0 is still an impressive record.

[othera1]

<cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote>if someone runs and gets away, i just hunt them down later.  If i have to, i'll borrow a scout.</blockquote>I try this but its kinda hard chasing someone into town and through 50 zones.

[Earthshine]

<cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dreamshadow</p><p>I have a good example of why the system needs to change, based off my PvP tonight on my 37 Warlock.</p><p>{{**First incident**}}</p><p>I bait an Assassin into attacking me, he does, I kill him. He brings a Brigand friend after a short period of time, and I kill them both. They then come back to my hunting spot and because I don't feel like leaving, and I don't have track to see anyone else who might be with them, I fight for my spot, my right to be there. Low and behold they had a healer hiding out of my line of sight who showed up after I engaged, and the three of them kill me.</p><p>A scout would have seen them all on track, evac'd or just ran, out running them.</p><p>That one death is more of a penalty to me, than the wins even against superior odds is a reward for me. Had I tried to sprint away, they could have easily killed me any how.</p><p>((**Second incident**}}</p><p>An assassin and dirge jump me, and I engage the fight because I know I can't out run a Bard who still has great in-combat runspeed and I know I have to get the assassin dead to minimize the damage. So I put the hurt to the assassin not noticing the dirge has yet to engage, noticing this I knew what was coming next. I am spanking the assassin and the dirge evacs them both away. They then come back with two others, and four people roll me, but not before I kill one of them because they had no healer. I gained nothing for fighting, but lost a ton because I had no other choice, but fight. Scouts could have run away, or evac'd, I couldn't.</p><p>{{**Third incident**}}</p><p>An Assassin and Fury jumps me, I stand and fight like a good little boy, rooting the Fury and leading the Assassin out of the Furies heal range and kill the Assassin, root breaks and the Fury kills me. Again, I fight against the odds and come out on the losing end.</p><p>But here is the kicker.. I'm forced to fight the odds, because I can't out run them, and I can't evac away.  So in every one of those situations a Scout who isn't going to fight is awarded because he loses no fame when he evac's, or runs, and I'm penalized because I am forced to fight against the odds, yet I'm not rewarded for it.</p></blockquote>The system does't need to be changed because you decided to make yourself an easy target. You laid claim to a particular territory and then were relieved of your "right" to be there by a stronger opposing force. As far as evac goes, or even stealth or so many other abilities offered by actual tools you can aquire in-game, there are such things as "locket of escape", totems, and even the option of grouping rather than insisting on solo PvP.

[Amphibia]

<cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dreamshadow</p><p>I have a good example of why the system needs to change, based off my PvP tonight on my 37 Warlock.</p><p>{{**First incident**}}</p><p>I bait an Assassin into attacking me, he does, I kill him. He brings a Brigand friend after a short period of time, and I kill them both. They then come back to my hunting spot and because I don't feel like leaving, and I don't have track to see anyone else who might be with them, I fight for my spot, my right to be there. Low and behold they had a healer hiding out of my line of sight who showed up after I engaged, and the three of them kill me.</p><p>A scout would have seen them all on track, evac'd or just ran, out running them.</p><p>That one death is more of a penalty to me, than the wins even against superior odds is a reward for me. Had I tried to sprint away, they could have easily killed me any how.</p><p>((**Second incident**}}</p><p>An assassin and dirge jump me, and I engage the fight because I know I can't out run a Bard who still has great in-combat runspeed and I know I have to get the assassin dead to minimize the damage. So I put the hurt to the assassin not noticing the dirge has yet to engage, noticing this I knew what was coming next. I am spanking the assassin and the dirge evacs them both away. They then come back with two others, and four people roll me, but not before I kill one of them because they had no healer. I gained nothing for fighting, but lost a ton because I had no other choice, but fight. Scouts could have run away, or evac'd, I couldn't.</p><p>{{**Third incident**}}</p><p>An Assassin and Fury jumps me, I stand and fight like a good little boy, rooting the Fury and leading the Assassin out of the Furies heal range and kill the Assassin, root breaks and the Fury kills me. Again, I fight against the odds and come out on the losing end.</p><p>But here is the kicker.. I'm forced to fight the odds, because I can't out run them, and I can't evac away.  So in every one of those situations a Scout who isn't going to fight is awarded because he loses no fame when he evac's, or runs, and I'm penalized because I am forced to fight against the odds, yet I'm not rewarded for it.</p></blockquote>The system does't need to be changed because you decided to make yourself an easy target. You laid claim to a particular territory and then were relieved of your "right" to be there by a stronger opposing force. As far as evac goes, or even stealth or so many other abilities offered by actual tools you can aquire in-game, there are such things as "locket of escape", totems, and even the option of grouping rather than insisting on solo PvP. </blockquote>What kind of an arguement is that? Escape lockets? Are you [Removed for Content] kidding me, you realize they cost 100k status each? And you can only use it once an hour, while a scout gets 4 evacs an hour for free + track and stealth. Awesome logic, dude. None of this would have mattered if you just didn't lose fame by dying in PvP, but as long as you do - it is so unbalanced it's not even funny.As for the "get a group"-arguement, that is pretty weak too. Why shouldn't a mage have a fair shot at solo pvp? Or a priest, or a fighter for that matter? What is your point exacty, that scouts <i>should</i> be the only viable option for soloists or people who like to move around without being in a group at all times? What does that say about the class balance in this game? Nevermind, you don't seem to care about that.... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Cyst]

<cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dreamshadow</p><p>I have a good example of why the system needs to change, based off my PvP tonight on my 37 Warlock.</p><p>{{**First incident**}}</p><p>I bait an Assassin into attacking me, he does, I kill him. He brings a Brigand friend after a short period of time, and I kill them both. They then come back to my hunting spot and because I don't feel like leaving, and I don't have track to see anyone else who might be with them, I fight for my spot, my right to be there. Low and behold they had a healer hiding out of my line of sight who showed up after I engaged, and the three of them kill me.</p><p>A scout would have seen them all on track, evac'd or just ran, out running them.</p><p>That one death is more of a penalty to me, than the wins even against superior odds is a reward for me. Had I tried to sprint away, they could have easily killed me any how.</p><p>((**Second incident**}}</p><p>An assassin and dirge jump me, and I engage the fight because I know I can't out run a Bard who still has great in-combat runspeed and I know I have to get the assassin dead to minimize the damage. So I put the hurt to the assassin not noticing the dirge has yet to engage, noticing this I knew what was coming next. I am spanking the assassin and the dirge evacs them both away. They then come back with two others, and four people roll me, but not before I kill one of them because they had no healer. I gained nothing for fighting, but lost a ton because I had no other choice, but fight. Scouts could have run away, or evac'd, I couldn't.</p><p>{{**Third incident**}}</p><p>An Assassin and Fury jumps me, I stand and fight like a good little boy, rooting the Fury and leading the Assassin out of the Furies heal range and kill the Assassin, root breaks and the Fury kills me. Again, I fight against the odds and come out on the losing end.</p><p>But here is the kicker.. I'm forced to fight the odds, because I can't out run them, and I can't evac away.  So in every one of those situations a Scout who isn't going to fight is awarded because he loses no fame when he evac's, or runs, and I'm penalized because I am forced to fight against the odds, yet I'm not rewarded for it.</p></blockquote>The system does't need to be changed because you decided to make yourself an easy target. You laid claim to a particular territory and then were relieved of your "right" to be there by a stronger opposing force. As far as evac goes, or even stealth or so many other abilities offered by actual tools you can aquire in-game, there are such things as "locket of escape", totems, and even the option of grouping rather than insisting on solo PvP. </blockquote><p>Is this the same old argument of; "group up"? You're a riot, really you are. Escape locket? Come on man.</p><p>I did not insist on solo PvP, I'm on Venekor, a very under populated server. I was questing, so a lot of folks won't come out and help on quests they don't have, or already have done, or just not interested in.</p><p>I noticed you ignore the fact that in every one of these situations I was not rewarded for fighting, instead, I was penalized, and had no option, where as a scout would have. I play a 70 Ranger who has earned Dreadnaught, and could hit Master if I so choosed. It's much, much easier to get a title, keep it, and progress to the new one on scouts. My 37 Warlock is a Destroyer, hard fought, well earned. But with some of the odds I've fought against, he should be Dreadnaught, not my Ranger.</p>

[Rhannnn]

<cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dreamshadow</p><p>I have a good example of why the system needs to change, based off my PvP tonight on my 37 Warlock.</p><p>{{**First incident**}}</p><p>I bait an Assassin into attacking me, he does, I kill him. He brings a Brigand friend after a short period of time, and I kill them both. They then come back to my hunting spot and because I don't feel like leaving, and I don't have track to see anyone else who might be with them, I fight for my spot, my right to be there. Low and behold they had a healer hiding out of my line of sight who showed up after I engaged, and the three of them kill me.</p><p>A scout would have seen them all on track, evac'd or just ran, out running them.</p><p>That one death is more of a penalty to me, than the wins even against superior odds is a reward for me. Had I tried to sprint away, they could have easily killed me any how.</p><p>((**Second incident**}}</p><p>An assassin and dirge jump me, and I engage the fight because I know I can't out run a Bard who still has great in-combat runspeed and I know I have to get the assassin dead to minimize the damage. So I put the hurt to the assassin not noticing the dirge has yet to engage, noticing this I knew what was coming next. I am spanking the assassin and the dirge evacs them both away. They then come back with two others, and four people roll me, but not before I kill one of them because they had no healer. I gained nothing for fighting, but lost a ton because I had no other choice, but fight. Scouts could have run away, or evac'd, I couldn't.</p><p>{{**Third incident**}}</p><p>An Assassin and Fury jumps me, I stand and fight like a good little boy, rooting the Fury and leading the Assassin out of the Furies heal range and kill the Assassin, root breaks and the Fury kills me. Again, I fight against the odds and come out on the losing end.</p><p>But here is the kicker.. I'm forced to fight the odds, because I can't out run them, and I can't evac away.  So in every one of those situations a Scout who isn't going to fight is awarded because he loses no fame when he evac's, or runs, and I'm penalized because I am forced to fight against the odds, yet I'm not rewarded for it.</p></blockquote><p>Spot on Demron.</p><p>I'm experiencing the same ' problems ' on my Warlock. </p><p>If you ever want to see a balance in titles throughout all classes you need to give the other non-scout classes some kind of ' danger detection ' ability (aka track) and if you want to promote more PVP you need to give these classes some kind of ' i want to find my opponents ' ability (again .. track)</p><p>Rhan</p><p>Shelved 70 ranger </p>

[Earthshine]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dreamshadow</p><p>I have a good example of why the system needs to change, based off my PvP tonight on my 37 Warlock.</p><p>{{**First incident**}}</p><p>I bait an Assassin into attacking me, he does, I kill him. He brings a Brigand friend after a short period of time, and I kill them both. They then come back to my hunting spot and because I don't feel like leaving, and I don't have track to see anyone else who might be with them, I fight for my spot, my right to be there. Low and behold they had a healer hiding out of my line of sight who showed up after I engaged, and the three of them kill me.</p><p>A scout would have seen them all on track, evac'd or just ran, out running them.</p><p>That one death is more of a penalty to me, than the wins even against superior odds is a reward for me. Had I tried to sprint away, they could have easily killed me any how.</p><p>((**Second incident**}}</p><p>An assassin and dirge jump me, and I engage the fight because I know I can't out run a Bard who still has great in-combat runspeed and I know I have to get the assassin dead to minimize the damage. So I put the hurt to the assassin not noticing the dirge has yet to engage, noticing this I knew what was coming next. I am spanking the assassin and the dirge evacs them both away. They then come back with two others, and four people roll me, but not before I kill one of them because they had no healer. I gained nothing for fighting, but lost a ton because I had no other choice, but fight. Scouts could have run away, or evac'd, I couldn't.</p><p>{{**Third incident**}}</p><p>An Assassin and Fury jumps me, I stand and fight like a good little boy, rooting the Fury and leading the Assassin out of the Furies heal range and kill the Assassin, root breaks and the Fury kills me. Again, I fight against the odds and come out on the losing end.</p><p>But here is the kicker.. I'm forced to fight the odds, because I can't out run them, and I can't evac away.  So in every one of those situations a Scout who isn't going to fight is awarded because he loses no fame when he evac's, or runs, and I'm penalized because I am forced to fight against the odds, yet I'm not rewarded for it.</p></blockquote>The system does't need to be changed because you decided to make yourself an easy target. You laid claim to a particular territory and then were relieved of your "right" to be there by a stronger opposing force. As far as evac goes, or even stealth or so many other abilities offered by actual tools you can aquire in-game, there are such things as "locket of escape", totems, and even the option of grouping rather than insisting on solo PvP. </blockquote>What kind of an arguement is that? Escape lockets? Are you [Removed for Content] kidding me, you realize they cost 100k status each? And you can only use it once an hour, while a scout gets 4 evacs an hour for free + track and stealth. Awesome logic, dude. None of this would have mattered if you just didn't lose fame by dying in PvP, but as long as you do - it is so unbalanced it's not even funny.As for the "get a group"-arguement, that is pretty weak too. Why shouldn't a mage have a fair shot at solo pvp? Or a priest, or a fighter for that matter? What is your point exacty, that scouts <i>should</i> be the only viable option for soloists or people who like to move around without being in a group at all times? What does that say about the class balance in this game? Nevermind, you don't seem to care about that.... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>100k status vs. weak tactics- or group with one scout so you can have track and evac available- Thing is, the game was designed for GROUP activity, believe it or not but... Nevermind you dont seem to care about that.</p>

[Earthshine]

<cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dreamshadow</p><p>I have a good example of why the system needs to change, based off my PvP tonight on my 37 Warlock.</p><p>{{**First incident**}}</p><p>I bait an Assassin into attacking me, he does, I kill him. He brings a Brigand friend after a short period of time, and I kill them both. They then come back to my hunting spot and because I don't feel like leaving, and I don't have track to see anyone else who might be with them, I fight for my spot, my right to be there. Low and behold they had a healer hiding out of my line of sight who showed up after I engaged, and the three of them kill me.</p><p>A scout would have seen them all on track, evac'd or just ran, out running them.</p><p>That one death is more of a penalty to me, than the wins even against superior odds is a reward for me. Had I tried to sprint away, they could have easily killed me any how.</p><p>((**Second incident**}}</p><p>An assassin and dirge jump me, and I engage the fight because I know I can't out run a Bard who still has great in-combat runspeed and I know I have to get the assassin dead to minimize the damage. So I put the hurt to the assassin not noticing the dirge has yet to engage, noticing this I knew what was coming next. I am spanking the assassin and the dirge evacs them both away. They then come back with two others, and four people roll me, but not before I kill one of them because they had no healer. I gained nothing for fighting, but lost a ton because I had no other choice, but fight. Scouts could have run away, or evac'd, I couldn't.</p><p>{{**Third incident**}}</p><p>An Assassin and Fury jumps me, I stand and fight like a good little boy, rooting the Fury and leading the Assassin out of the Furies heal range and kill the Assassin, root breaks and the Fury kills me. Again, I fight against the odds and come out on the losing end.</p><p>But here is the kicker.. I'm forced to fight the odds, because I can't out run them, and I can't evac away.  So in every one of those situations a Scout who isn't going to fight is awarded because he loses no fame when he evac's, or runs, and I'm penalized because I am forced to fight against the odds, yet I'm not rewarded for it.</p></blockquote>The system does't need to be changed because you decided to make yourself an easy target. You laid claim to a particular territory and then were relieved of your "right" to be there by a stronger opposing force. As far as evac goes, or even stealth or so many other abilities offered by actual tools you can aquire in-game, there are such things as "locket of escape", totems, and even the option of grouping rather than insisting on solo PvP. </blockquote><p>Is this the same old argument of; "group up"? You're a riot, really you are. Escape locket? Come on man.</p><p>I did not insist on solo PvP, I'm on Venekor, a very under populated server. I was questing, so a lot of folks won't come out and help on quests they don't have, or already have done, or just not interested in.</p><p>I noticed you ignore the fact that in every one of these situations I was not rewarded for fighting, instead, I was penalized, and had no option, where as a scout would have. I play a 70 Ranger who has earned Dreadnaught, and could hit Master if I so choosed. It's much, much easier to get a title, keep it, and progress to the new one on scouts. My 37 Warlock is a Destroyer, hard fought, well earned. But with some of the odds I've fought against, he should be Dreadnaught, not my Ranger.</p></blockquote>You stated you won the first fight- therefore you WERE rewarded. You chose to stick around and wait for them to come back stronger so you lost for using poor tactics. And by class design, warlocks have the adavantage in a group setting wereas any scout class has the advantage as a soloist. Fact.

[Cyst]

<cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dreamshadow</p><p>I have a good example of why the system needs to change, based off my PvP tonight on my 37 Warlock.</p><p>{{**First incident**}}</p><p>I bait an Assassin into attacking me, he does, I kill him. He brings a Brigand friend after a short period of time, and I kill them both. They then come back to my hunting spot and because I don't feel like leaving, and I don't have track to see anyone else who might be with them, I fight for my spot, my right to be there. Low and behold they had a healer hiding out of my line of sight who showed up after I engaged, and the three of them kill me.</p><p>A scout would have seen them all on track, evac'd or just ran, out running them.</p><p>That one death is more of a penalty to me, than the wins even against superior odds is a reward for me. Had I tried to sprint away, they could have easily killed me any how.</p><p>((**Second incident**}}</p><p>An assassin and dirge jump me, and I engage the fight because I know I can't out run a Bard who still has great in-combat runspeed and I know I have to get the assassin dead to minimize the damage. So I put the hurt to the assassin not noticing the dirge has yet to engage, noticing this I knew what was coming next. I am spanking the assassin and the dirge evacs them both away. They then come back with two others, and four people roll me, but not before I kill one of them because they had no healer. I gained nothing for fighting, but lost a ton because I had no other choice, but fight. Scouts could have run away, or evac'd, I couldn't.</p><p>{{**Third incident**}}</p><p>An Assassin and Fury jumps me, I stand and fight like a good little boy, rooting the Fury and leading the Assassin out of the Furies heal range and kill the Assassin, root breaks and the Fury kills me. Again, I fight against the odds and come out on the losing end.</p><p>But here is the kicker.. I'm forced to fight the odds, because I can't out run them, and I can't evac away.  So in every one of those situations a Scout who isn't going to fight is awarded because he loses no fame when he evac's, or runs, and I'm penalized because I am forced to fight against the odds, yet I'm not rewarded for it.</p></blockquote>The system does't need to be changed because you decided to make yourself an easy target. You laid claim to a particular territory and then were relieved of your "right" to be there by a stronger opposing force. As far as evac goes, or even stealth or so many other abilities offered by actual tools you can aquire in-game, there are such things as "locket of escape", totems, and even the option of grouping rather than insisting on solo PvP. </blockquote><p>Is this the same old argument of; "group up"? You're a riot, really you are. Escape locket? Come on man.</p><p>I did not insist on solo PvP, I'm on Venekor, a very under populated server. I was questing, so a lot of folks won't come out and help on quests they don't have, or already have done, or just not interested in.</p><p>I noticed you ignore the fact that in every one of these situations I was not rewarded for fighting, instead, I was penalized, and had no option, where as a scout would have. I play a 70 Ranger who has earned Dreadnaught, and could hit Master if I so choosed. It's much, much easier to get a title, keep it, and progress to the new one on scouts. My 37 Warlock is a Destroyer, hard fought, well earned. But with some of the odds I've fought against, he should be Dreadnaught, not my Ranger.</p></blockquote>You stated you won the first fight- therefore you WERE rewarded. You chose to stick around and wait for them to come back stronger so you lost for using poor tactics. And by class design, warlocks have the adavantage in a group setting wereas any scout class has the advantage as a soloist. Fact.</blockquote><p>As you stated in the previous post the game is designed for groups, so scouts shouldn't be the most rewarded because they can run solo.</p><p>Poor tactics? Was I supposed to leave the zone? Stop questing? Do scouts own the zones, the servers? You're being biased and very unrealistic here. Let me guess, you're a scout, and afraid a new system will strip you of that title you so preciously hug?</p><p>One death is 10 times worse than the reward for 1 win. I was not rewarded at all the entire day of fighting. Even though I won against the odds.</p>

[Earthshine]

<cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dreamshadow</p><p>I have a good example of why the system needs to change, based off my PvP tonight on my 37 Warlock.</p><p>{{**First incident**}}</p><p>I bait an Assassin into attacking me, he does, I kill him. He brings a Brigand friend after a short period of time, and I kill them both. They then come back to my hunting spot and because I don't feel like leaving, and I don't have track to see anyone else who might be with them, I fight for my spot, my right to be there. Low and behold they had a healer hiding out of my line of sight who showed up after I engaged, and the three of them kill me.</p><p>A scout would have seen them all on track, evac'd or just ran, out running them.</p><p>That one death is more of a penalty to me, than the wins even against superior odds is a reward for me. Had I tried to sprint away, they could have easily killed me any how.</p><p>((**Second incident**}}</p><p>An assassin and dirge jump me, and I engage the fight because I know I can't out run a Bard who still has great in-combat runspeed and I know I have to get the assassin dead to minimize the damage. So I put the hurt to the assassin not noticing the dirge has yet to engage, noticing this I knew what was coming next. I am spanking the assassin and the dirge evacs them both away. They then come back with two others, and four people roll me, but not before I kill one of them because they had no healer. I gained nothing for fighting, but lost a ton because I had no other choice, but fight. Scouts could have run away, or evac'd, I couldn't.</p><p>{{**Third incident**}}</p><p>An Assassin and Fury jumps me, I stand and fight like a good little boy, rooting the Fury and leading the Assassin out of the Furies heal range and kill the Assassin, root breaks and the Fury kills me. Again, I fight against the odds and come out on the losing end.</p><p>But here is the kicker.. I'm forced to fight the odds, because I can't out run them, and I can't evac away.  So in every one of those situations a Scout who isn't going to fight is awarded because he loses no fame when he evac's, or runs, and I'm penalized because I am forced to fight against the odds, yet I'm not rewarded for it.</p></blockquote>The system does't need to be changed because you decided to make yourself an easy target. You laid claim to a particular territory and then were relieved of your "right" to be there by a stronger opposing force. As far as evac goes, or even stealth or so many other abilities offered by actual tools you can aquire in-game, there are such things as "locket of escape", totems, and even the option of grouping rather than insisting on solo PvP. </blockquote><p>Is this the same old argument of; "group up"? You're a riot, really you are. Escape locket? Come on man.</p><p>I did not insist on solo PvP, I'm on Venekor, a very under populated server. I was questing, so a lot of folks won't come out and help on quests they don't have, or already have done, or just not interested in.</p><p>I noticed you ignore the fact that in every one of these situations I was not rewarded for fighting, instead, I was penalized, and had no option, where as a scout would have. I play a 70 Ranger who has earned Dreadnaught, and could hit Master if I so choosed. It's much, much easier to get a title, keep it, and progress to the new one on scouts. My 37 Warlock is a Destroyer, hard fought, well earned. But with some of the odds I've fought against, he should be Dreadnaught, not my Ranger.</p></blockquote>You stated you won the first fight- therefore you WERE rewarded. You chose to stick around and wait for them to come back stronger so you lost for using poor tactics. And by class design, warlocks have the adavantage in a group setting wereas any scout class has the advantage as a soloist. Fact.</blockquote><p>As you stated in the previous post the game is designed for groups, so scouts shouldn't be the most rewarded because they can run solo.</p><p>Poor tactics? Was I supposed to leave the zone? Stop questing? Do scouts own the zones, the servers? You're being biased and very unrealistic here. Let me guess, you're a scout, and afraid a new system will strip you of that title you so preciously hug?</p><p>One death is 10 times worse than 1 win. I was not rewarded at all the entire day of fighting. Even though I won against the odds.</p></blockquote><p>Nope, dont play a scout. I have a monk, an illy, and an SK. I solo 95% of the time because I cant find a decent group. Im struggling to maintain destroyer on my main (monkee) and I dont want to be succeptable to losing fame because I can't find a fight (on venekor) for 2+ hours or more. I use everything to my advantage and I don't cry when a scout evacs on me or when I get steamrolled by Doomsnaggle and the Forky Puss.</p><p>Also, I love questing, solo or in group, I harvest all my rares because I'm not rich, and I love the sense of danger that exists on a PvP server because I have something to lose if I put myself in harms way. I have also talked to many people in-game who share my views. The sad thing is most people who are content with the current system are too busy playing the game and having fun to care about what's going on in the forums. Hence, only the whiners are being heard and "the community is in agreement for a change" becuase about 0.1%(rough estimate,lol) of the player base are stating their views. I happened upon this topic during downtime and I am adamantly opposed to yet another change that, to be honest, would destroy the game for me as well as many others. I only play on a PvP server and that server happens to be Venekor- all my characters, both good and evil, reside there. If I wanted 1v1 fair fights I would be on blue server bored off my [I cannot control my vocabulary].</p>

[Tae]

<cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote>if someone runs and gets away, i just hunt them down later.  If i have to, i'll borrow a scout.</blockquote>So now I have Boris The Escapist track locked. Great. He hops from island to island and we can never get to him. Then he jumps off and has perma immunity. Fat lot of good that did. And roots and snares are resisted 90% of the time, and for that 10% they're not someone will just drink a potion and it'll be gone. Meanwhile we're chasing them at in-combat run speed and they're on their horse going at 50% speed. Honestly level some characters up before you start commenting on PvP.

[Cyst]

<cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><p>Nope, dont play a scout. I have a monk, an illy, and an SK. I solo 95% of the time because I cant find a decent group. Im struggling to maintain destroyer on my main (monkee) and I dont want to be succeptable to losing fame because I can't find a fight (on venekor) for 2+ hours or more. I use everything to my advantage and I don't cry when a scout evacs on me or when I get steamrolled by Doomsnaggle and the Forky Puss.</p><p>Also, I love questing, solo or in group, I harvest all my rares because I'm not rich, and I love the sense of danger that exists on a PvP server because I have something to lose if I put myself in harms way. I have also talked to many people in-game who share my views. The sad thing is most people who are content with the current system are too busy playing the game and having fun to care about what's going on in the forums. Hence, only the whiners are being heard and "the community is in agreement for a change" becuase about 0.1%(rough estimate,lol) of the player base are stating their views. I happened upon this topic during downtime and I am adamantly opposed to yet another change that, to be honest, would destroy the game for me as well as many others. I only play on a PvP server and that server happens to be Venekor- all my characters, both good and evil, reside there. If I wanted 1v1 fair fights I would be on blue server bored off my [I cannot control my vocabulary].</p></blockquote><p>So it would ruin the game for you if you were rewarded for killing 1 person, while fighting 3 people at one time? Instead you would rather people who can run to continue running, if the odds are stacked against them instead of giving the fight a try?</p><p>/scratches head</p>

[Armironhead]

<cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dreamshadow</p><p>I have a good example of why the system needs to change, based off my PvP tonight on my 37 Warlock.</p><p>{{**First incident**}}</p><p>I bait an Assassin into attacking me, he does, I kill him. He brings a Brigand friend after a short period of time, and I kill them both. They then come back to my hunting spot and because I don't feel like leaving, and I don't have track to see anyone else who might be with them, I fight for my spot, my right to be there. Low and behold they had a healer hiding out of my line of sight who showed up after I engaged, and the three of them kill me.</p><p>A scout would have seen them all on track, evac'd or just ran, out running them.</p><p>That one death is more of a penalty to me, than the wins even against superior odds is a reward for me. Had I tried to sprint away, they could have easily killed me any how.</p><p>((**Second incident**}}</p><p>An assassin and dirge jump me, and I engage the fight because I know I can't out run a Bard who still has great in-combat runspeed and I know I have to get the assassin dead to minimize the damage. So I put the hurt to the assassin not noticing the dirge has yet to engage, noticing this I knew what was coming next. I am spanking the assassin and the dirge evacs them both away. They then come back with two others, and four people roll me, but not before I kill one of them because they had no healer. I gained nothing for fighting, but lost a ton because I had no other choice, but fight. Scouts could have run away, or evac'd, I couldn't.</p><p>{{**Third incident**}}</p><p>An Assassin and Fury jumps me, I stand and fight like a good little boy, rooting the Fury and leading the Assassin out of the Furies heal range and kill the Assassin, root breaks and the Fury kills me. Again, I fight against the odds and come out on the losing end.</p><p>But here is the kicker.. I'm forced to fight the odds, because I can't out run them, and I can't evac away.  So in every one of those situations a Scout who isn't going to fight is awarded because he loses no fame when he evac's, or runs, and I'm penalized because I am forced to fight against the odds, yet I'm not rewarded for it.</p></blockquote>The system does't need to be changed because you decided to make yourself an easy target. You laid claim to a particular territory and then were relieved of your "right" to be there by a stronger opposing force. As far as evac goes, or even stealth or so many other abilities offered by actual tools you can aquire in-game, there are such things as "locket of escape", totems, and even the option of grouping rather than insisting on solo PvP. </blockquote>While I am generally opposed to changing the title system or at least in the manners that have been suggested on the forum, I think he is right that the gain/loss in infamy does not properly reflect the odds in combat.  Now of course this is guess work because there is no infamy "bar" -- but it seems to me that it makes no difference if you are killed by a grp or an individual.  The odds of survival/success should be factored into the infamy gain/loss. 

[Earthshine]

<cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><p>Nope, dont play a scout. I have a monk, an illy, and an SK. I solo 95% of the time because I cant find a decent group. Im struggling to maintain destroyer on my main (monkee) and I dont want to be succeptable to losing fame because I can't find a fight (on venekor) for 2+ hours or more. I use everything to my advantage and I don't cry when a scout evacs on me or when I get steamrolled by Doomsnaggle and the Forky Puss.</p><p>Also, I love questing, solo or in group, I harvest all my rares because I'm not rich, and I love the sense of danger that exists on a PvP server because I have something to lose if I put myself in harms way. I have also talked to many people in-game who share my views. The sad thing is most people who are content with the current system are too busy playing the game and having fun to care about what's going on in the forums. Hence, only the whiners are being heard and "the community is in agreement for a change" becuase about 0.1%(rough estimate,lol) of the player base are stating their views. I happened upon this topic during downtime and I am adamantly opposed to yet another change that, to be honest, would destroy the game for me as well as many others. I only play on a PvP server and that server happens to be Venekor- all my characters, both good and evil, reside there. If I wanted 1v1 fair fights I would be on blue server bored off my [I cannot control my vocabulary].</p></blockquote><p>So it would ruin the game for you if you were rewarded for killing 1 person, while fighting 3 people at one time? Instead you would rather people who can run to continue running, if the odds are stacked against them instead of giving the fight a try?</p><p>/scratches head</p></blockquote><p>No, it would ruin the game because the sense of danger has been removed. Instead I would be "scared" of NOT finding a fight. </p><p>And, I fail to see any arguement or reasoning remotely valid that would call for such a drastic change to the current system. In fact the only arguement being brought forth is that its either, scouts are better soloists, I cant catch the person running from me, I cant solo as a squishie, or I dont want to lose fame because I died.</p><p>You want to be rewarded for commiting suicide or being ganked? or you just dont want to be penalized for choosing to play on a PvP server.</p>

[kreepr]

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote>if someone runs and gets away, i just hunt them down later.  If i have to, i'll borrow a scout.</blockquote>So now I have Boris The Escapist track locked. Great. He hops from island to island and we can never get to him. Then he jumps off and has perma immunity.Fat lot of good that did.And roots and snares are resisted 90% of the time, and for that 10% they're not someone will just drink a potion and it'll be gone. Meanwhile we're chasing them at in-combat run speed and they're on their horse going at 50% speed.Honestly level some characters up before you start commenting on PvP.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Your level 70 BS response has no place here and level matters not. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I agree with you Dreamshadow, I have also talked to quite a few people in game and really its the minority on the forums crying about this. People tend to forget this game is based on a grouping system. Can a scout effectively solo well yes they can but I thought scouts went out on there own, kinda how the class was designed. Most and I say most not all cause there are a few people talking about this change that are truly trying to just improve the game for everyone. Most of the people wanting this change just want it so they don't have to worry about losing there titles and can get one with out worry. they want it made easier for them.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Really class should not even be a thought in the decision of the title system cause there are plenty of all classes with high titles. Maybe those people know what the game is about and have a deeper knowledge of how to play.........</span> </p>

[Amphibia]

<cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dreamshadow</p><p>I have a good example of why the system needs to change, based off my PvP tonight on my 37 Warlock.</p><p>{{**First incident**}}</p><p>I bait an Assassin into attacking me, he does, I kill him. He brings a Brigand friend after a short period of time, and I kill them both. They then come back to my hunting spot and because I don't feel like leaving, and I don't have track to see anyone else who might be with them, I fight for my spot, my right to be there. Low and behold they had a healer hiding out of my line of sight who showed up after I engaged, and the three of them kill me.</p><p>A scout would have seen them all on track, evac'd or just ran, out running them.</p><p>That one death is more of a penalty to me, than the wins even against superior odds is a reward for me. Had I tried to sprint away, they could have easily killed me any how.</p><p>((**Second incident**}}</p><p>An assassin and dirge jump me, and I engage the fight because I know I can't out run a Bard who still has great in-combat runspeed and I know I have to get the assassin dead to minimize the damage. So I put the hurt to the assassin not noticing the dirge has yet to engage, noticing this I knew what was coming next. I am spanking the assassin and the dirge evacs them both away. They then come back with two others, and four people roll me, but not before I kill one of them because they had no healer. I gained nothing for fighting, but lost a ton because I had no other choice, but fight. Scouts could have run away, or evac'd, I couldn't.</p><p>{{**Third incident**}}</p><p>An Assassin and Fury jumps me, I stand and fight like a good little boy, rooting the Fury and leading the Assassin out of the Furies heal range and kill the Assassin, root breaks and the Fury kills me. Again, I fight against the odds and come out on the losing end.</p><p>But here is the kicker.. I'm forced to fight the odds, because I can't out run them, and I can't evac away.  So in every one of those situations a Scout who isn't going to fight is awarded because he loses no fame when he evac's, or runs, and I'm penalized because I am forced to fight against the odds, yet I'm not rewarded for it.</p></blockquote>The system does't need to be changed because you decided to make yourself an easy target. You laid claim to a particular territory and then were relieved of your "right" to be there by a stronger opposing force. As far as evac goes, or even stealth or so many other abilities offered by actual tools you can aquire in-game, there are such things as "locket of escape", totems, and even the option of grouping rather than insisting on solo PvP. </blockquote>What kind of an arguement is that? Escape lockets? Are you [Removed for Content] kidding me, you realize they cost 100k status each? And you can only use it once an hour, while a scout gets 4 evacs an hour for free + track and stealth. Awesome logic, dude. None of this would have mattered if you just didn't lose fame by dying in PvP, but as long as you do - it is so unbalanced it's not even funny.As for the "get a group"-arguement, that is pretty weak too. Why shouldn't a mage have a fair shot at solo pvp? Or a priest, or a fighter for that matter? What is your point exacty, that scouts <i>should</i> be the only viable option for soloists or people who like to move around without being in a group at all times? What does that say about the class balance in this game? Nevermind, you don't seem to care about that.... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>100k status vs. weak tactics- or group with one scout so you can have track and evac available- Thing is, the game was designed for GROUP activity, believe it or not but... Nevermind you dont seem to care about that.</p></blockquote>Incorrect. The game is supposed to be designed for people who enjoy grouping, raiding AND soloing. Ask any dev. Fame loss via decay instead of PvP death seems to be a simple and good way to bring more balance between the classes, and encourage people to PvP more. And <i>that</i> is what I care about. I love scouts, but lets get real.... there are 18 other classes to choose between too. PvP is so much more fun when more classes go out and take part in it. But as things are right now - you better stay in your city if you don't have a group, and are a non-tracker without evac who care about your title. I fail to see what's so great about that.

[Rhannnn]

<cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Im struggling to maintain destroyer on my main (monkee) and I dont want to be succeptable to losing fame because I can't find a fight (on venekor) for 2+ hours or more. </p></blockquote><p>Hey Dreamshadow, </p><p>Monkee on Venekor is a lvl6 monk. I'm curious how you are struggling to maintain your Destroyer title on this character.</p><p>Rhan,</p><p>70 Ranger</p>

[Gane]

<cite>Rhannnn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Spot on Demron.</p><p>I'm experiencing the same ' problems ' on my Warlock. </p><p>If you ever want to see a balance in titles throughout all classes you need to give the other non-scout classes some kind of ' danger detection ' ability (aka track) and if you want to promote more PVP you need to give these classes some kind of ' i want to find my opponents ' ability (again .. track)</p><p>Rhan</p><p>Shelved 70 ranger </p></blockquote><p>Jumpnig in a little late, but if you want track or evac, play a scout.  If you're not on a tracking class, you don't get tracking class, and you don't deserve tracknig because pvp is hard for you without it.  I'm sure you're going come back with something clever like, "if you read my post, you'd see I have a 70 ranger I don't play."  Basically, what I'm saying is, "Classes are built the way they are because that's how they were built.  If every class were built the same, this s-word would be bornig as all getout."</p><p>Also, I play a bruiser with a not-so hot pvp kvd ratio.  But I'm still having LOTS of fun, even though i was unable to see that orange ranger this morning (WHICH ONLY KILLED ME BECAUSE I ACCIDENTLY POPED FD INSTAED OF INDOMITABLE WILL!).  Oh, guess what, he ran from me once he realized he was going to be able to mele me to death.  And ya know what?  I'm fine with that.  I've got his name, and I'll employ a scout this weekend to track him down and grief him.  I have to employ a scout because I don't have track.  Because I'm a bruiser.  [see what i did there?]</p>

[Norrsken]

<cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rhannnn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Spot on Demron.</p><p>I'm experiencing the same ' problems ' on my Warlock. </p><p>If you ever want to see a balance in titles throughout all classes you need to give the other non-scout classes some kind of ' danger detection ' ability (aka track) and if you want to promote more PVP you need to give these classes some kind of ' i want to find my opponents ' ability (again .. track)</p><p>Rhan</p><p>Shelved 70 ranger </p></blockquote><p>Jumpnig in a little late, but if you want track or evac, play a scout.  If you're not on a tracking class, you don't get tracking class, and you don't deserve tracknig because pvp is hard for you without it.  I'm sure you're going come back with something clever like, "if you read my post, you'd see I have a 70 ranger I don't play."  Basically, what I'm saying is, "Classes are built the way they are because that's how they were built.  If every class were built the same, this s-word would be bornig as all getout."</p><p>Also, I play a bruiser with a not-so hot pvp kvd ratio.  But I'm still having LOTS of fun, even though i was unable to see that orange ranger this morning (WHICH ONLY KILLED ME BECAUSE I ACCIDENTLY POPED FD INSTAED OF INDOMITABLE WILL!).  Oh, guess what, he ran from me once he realized he was going to be able to mele me to death.  And ya know what?  I'm fine with that.  I've got his name, and I'll employ a scout this weekend to track him down and grief him.  I have to employ a scout because I don't have track.  Because I'm a bruiser.  [see what i did there?]</p></blockquote>And there we go. Why should people be had to play a specific subset of classes to have a fair shot at a high title?Nevermind that track is the one and only archetype skill that has not been spread out to other archetypes. Even though IMHO an omniscient awareness of everything living around you should actually be a mage skill...

[Rhannnn]

<cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rhannnn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Spot on Demron.</p><p>I'm experiencing the same ' problems ' on my Warlock. </p><p>If you ever want to see a balance in titles throughout all classes you need to give the other non-scout classes some kind of ' danger detection ' ability (aka track) and if you want to promote more PVP you need to give these classes some kind of ' i want to find my opponents ' ability (again .. track)</p><p>Rhan</p><p>Shelved 70 ranger </p></blockquote><p>Jumpnig in a little late, but if you want track or evac, play a scout.  If you're not on a tracking class, you don't get tracking class, and you don't deserve tracknig because pvp is hard for you without it.  I'm sure you're going come back with something clever like, "if you read my post, you'd see I have a 70 ranger I don't play."  Basically, what I'm saying is, "Classes are built the way they are because that's how they were built.  If every class were built the same, this s-word would be bornig as all getout."</p><p>Also, I play a bruiser with a not-so hot pvp kvd ratio.  But I'm still having LOTS of fun, even though i was unable to see that orange ranger this morning (WHICH ONLY KILLED ME BECAUSE I ACCIDENTLY POPED FD INSTAED OF INDOMITABLE WILL!).  Oh, guess what, he ran from me once he realized he was going to be able to mele me to death.  And ya know what?  I'm fine with that.  I've got his name, and I'll employ a scout this weekend to track him down and grief him.  I have to employ a scout because I don't have track.  Because I'm a bruiser.  [see what i did there?]</p></blockquote><p>Gayne,</p><p>Does you siggy reflect the grand total of all your Kills and Deaths ?</p><p>Just curious.</p><p>Rhan</p>

[Gane]

<p>Not yet.  There should be a couple more kills and a couple more deaths from last night / this morning.  I only run from groups when i'm solo, otherwise, it's go-time.</p><p>And you should be forced to play a certain class if you feel the only way you have an even shot is if you have those skills.  As a bruiser, I cannot root or hit hard from a distacne.  But that's fine, once [if] I get all up in your grill, you'll be hurtin'.  </p>

[Cyst]

<cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote>if someone runs and gets away, i just hunt them down later.  If i have to, i'll borrow a scout.</blockquote>So now I have Boris The Escapist track locked. Great. He hops from island to island and we can never get to him. Then he jumps off and has perma immunity.Fat lot of good that did.And roots and snares are resisted 90% of the time, and for that 10% they're not someone will just drink a potion and it'll be gone. Meanwhile we're chasing them at in-combat run speed and they're on their horse going at 50% speed.Honestly level some characters up before you start commenting on PvP.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Your level 70 BS response has no place here and level matters not. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I agree with you Dreamshadow, I have also talked to quite a few people in game and really its the minority on the forums crying about this. People tend to forget this game is based on a grouping system. Can a scout effectively solo well yes they can but I thought scouts went out on there own, kinda how the class was designed. Most and I say most not all cause there are a few people talking about this change that are truly trying to just improve the game for everyone. Most of the people wanting this change just want it so they don't have to worry about losing there titles and can get one with out worry. they want it made easier for them.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Really class should not even be a thought in the decision of the title system cause there are plenty of all classes with high titles. Maybe those people know what the game is about and have a deeper knowledge of how to play.........</span> </p></blockquote><p>So you really think my 70 Ranger who is a Dreadnaught has a deeper knowledge of how to play, yet my Warlock who is a destroyer doesn't? I'm trying not to laugh here, but I have to.</p><p>Show me one Guardian who has the rank of Master, and I'll show you 20 scouts who have Master. Show me 5 Guardians who have Master, and I'll show you 100 scouts who have the rank Master. This is Venekor and Naggy combined.</p>

[Earthshine]

<cite>Rhannnn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Im struggling to maintain destroyer on my main (monkee) and I dont want to be succeptable to losing fame because I can't find a fight (on venekor) for 2+ hours or more. </p></blockquote><p>Hey Dreamshadow, </p><p>Monkee on Venekor is a lvl6 monk. I'm curious how you are struggling to maintain your Destroyer title on this character.</p><p>Rhan,</p><p>70 Ranger</p></blockquote>lol, my monks name isn't monkee- my main is a monk however so I used loose terminology in this context- good research tho. Search "Earthshine" and you'll see a very poor PvP record that I am very proud of.

[Cyst]

<cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rhannnn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Spot on Demron.</p><p>I'm experiencing the same ' problems ' on my Warlock. </p><p>If you ever want to see a balance in titles throughout all classes you need to give the other non-scout classes some kind of ' danger detection ' ability (aka track) and if you want to promote more PVP you need to give these classes some kind of ' i want to find my opponents ' ability (again .. track)</p><p>Rhan</p><p>Shelved 70 ranger </p></blockquote><p>Jumpnig in a little late, <span style="font-size: small;">but if you want track or evac, play a scout.</span>  If you're not on a tracking class, you don't get tracking class, and you don't deserve tracknig because pvp is hard for you without it.  I'm sure you're going come back with something clever like, "if you read my post, you'd see I have a 70 ranger I don't play."  Basically, what I'm saying is, "Classes are built the way they are because that's how they were built.  If every class were built the same, this s-word would be bornig as all getout."</p><p>Also, I play a bruiser with a not-so hot pvp kvd ratio.  But I'm still having LOTS of fun, even though i was unable to see that orange ranger this morning (WHICH ONLY KILLED ME BECAUSE I ACCIDENTLY POPED FD INSTAED OF INDOMITABLE WILL!).  Oh, guess what, he ran from me once he realized he was going to be able to mele me to death.  And ya know what?  I'm fine with that.  I've got his name, and I'll employ a scout this weekend to track him down and grief him.  I have to employ a scout because I don't have track.  Because I'm a bruiser.  [see what i did there?]</p></blockquote><p>/sigh</p><p>My main is a 70 Ranger with the rank of Dreadnaught. Come again?</p>

[k9quaint]

Solo scouts prey on other solo people and terrible players who group. No see stealth totem active + solo = scout bait. Pay the 1g per hour and take away a scouts most powerful tool, initiative.Or don't learn to play and keep thinking you are entitled to all the tools scouts have. As long as they can gank bad players, they won't ask for manashield, taunt, heals, 6k nukes, etc.

[Gane]

IO already addressed this response a sentence later with, "I'm sure you're going come back with something clever like, "if you read my post, you'd see I have a 70 ranger I don't play."So congrats, you know how to play a scout. Learn to play another class without track, evac, or range.That's right, I just "l2p"'d you.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Cyst]

<cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote>IO already addressed this response a sentence later with, "I'm sure you're going come back with something clever like, "if you read my post, you'd see I have a 70 ranger I don't play."So congrats, you know how to play a scout. Learn to play another class without track, evac, or range.That's right, I just "l2p"'d you.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Your classes and ranks are? With names please.

[Cyst]

<cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote>IO already addressed this response a sentence later with, "I'm sure you're going come back with something clever like, "if you read my post, you'd see I have a 70 ranger I don't play."So congrats, you know how to play a scout. Learn to play another class without track, evac, or range.That's right, I just "l2p"'d you.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Cyst my 37 Warlock who is a Destroyer has 523 Kills, 124 Deaths most of it solo... I'll keep trying to learn how to play him. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Gane]

<p>Ahh yes.  Because we know that rank is indicitive to skill and NOT the ability to run from a fight.  If more people were less picky about the fights they picked, there would be far fewer titles.  I honestly can't see myself ever titling.  Ever.  Why?  Becuase if you on to me, and are solo or in a small group, I'm going to come at you, for better or worse.  And the main difference between me and you, sir, is that I have to get 'all up in ur grill' before I can even dream on doing any serious damage. </p><p>Also, you have what you're asking for right in front of your eyes.  My signature is as honest as it's gonna get.</p><p>edit:  Correct me if I'm wrong;  Warlocks can do some serious hurt FROM A DISTANCE.  So read my message again.  Play a class with _no_ range and see how easy it is to title.  PS:  It isn't.</p>

[Cyst]

<cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ahh yes.  Because we know that rank is indicitive to skill and NOT the ability to run from a fight.  If more people were less picky about the fights they picked, there would be far fewer titles.  I honestly can't see myself ever titling.  Ever.  Why?  Becuase if you on to me, and are solo or in a small group, I'm going to come at you, for better or worse.  And the main difference between me and you, sir, is that I have to get 'all up in ur grill' before I can even dream on doing any serious damage. </p><p>Also, you have what you're asking for right in front of your eyes.  My signature is as honest as it's gonna get.</p><p>edit:  Correct me if I'm wrong;  Warlocks can do some serious hurt FROM A DISTANCE.  So read my message again.  Play a class with _no_ range and see how easy it is to title.  PS:  It isn't.</p></blockquote>lol.. That's your defense after you told me that I needed to L2P because I think the current system needs to change? /laugh

[Amphibia]

<cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ahh yes.  Because we know that rank is indicitive to skill and NOT the ability to run from a fight.  If more people were less picky about the fights they picked, there would be far fewer titles.  I honestly can't see myself ever titling.  Ever.  Why?  Becuase if you on to me, and are solo or in a small group, I'm going to come at you, for better or worse.  And the main difference between me and you, sir, is that I have to get 'all up in ur grill' before I can even dream on doing any serious damage. </p><p>Also, you have what you're asking for right in front of your eyes.  My signature is as honest as it's gonna get.</p><p>edit:  Correct me if I'm wrong;  Warlocks can do some serious hurt FROM A DISTANCE.  So read my message again.  Play a class with _no_ range and see how easy it is to title.  PS:  It isn't.</p></blockquote>Welcome to EQ2! Hope you will enjoy yourself and have tons of fun on Nagafen <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />... but when you are 70 (or I guess I should say 80), have a full set of PvP gear, and infamy is all there is left to gain - you might en up reconsidering what you just said. 

[Gane]

<p>No, my reasoning for agreeing to this thread is not becuase you're either 1)  a great ranged player or 2)  a wonderful runner, but rather, is that I do not feel it needs a change.  All class types <b>need</b> to be different with very little overlap in playstyle.  That's just how pvp works.  </p>

[Cyst]

<cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>No, my reasoning for agreeing to this thread is not becuase you're either 1)  a great ranged player or 2)  a wonderful runner, but rather, is that I do not feel it needs a change.  All class types <b>need</b> to be different with very little overlap in playstyle.  That's just how pvp works.  </p></blockquote><p>I've been playing MMORPG for a long time now, I've played multiple PvP setting with many years experience.</p><ul><li>EQ1 - 10 years, 3-4 years PvP on Rallos Zek / Sullon Zek</li><li>Dark Age of Camelot - 3-4 years <i>*Best PvP setting ever. Note: I got bored because the end game was boring, and after you capture and defend relics a couple dozen times, it gets old to repeat it. </i>Not only that DAoC had the best balanced reward system and people fought (PvP) because of it.</li><li>EQ2 - I started opening day, played a Mystic to the end game before the KoS expansion and quit for DDO. I came back months ago to try out the PvP because I love PvP, and love it.</li><li>DDO - 6 months -1 week PvP <i>*Awesome game, but not enough content to keep me busy, didn't want to repeat content I already did. This is not a PvP game, but if you love Dungeons and Dragons, you'll love this game, so long as you don't rush through the content.</i></li></ul><p>So my reasoning behind the fame system needing to be changed doesn't come from this game alone, even though I've got a 70 Ranger who can easily protect his fame, or a 37 Warlock who has to fight for his fame, but because I've seen better reward systems, and played with no reward system at all.</p>

[Spyderbite]

<cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>That's just how pvp works.  </p></blockquote>/chucklesPvP Total Kills: 46PvP Deaths: 228I could care less about the infamy system. But, I can say with confidence that at least 80% of those deaths were at the hands of title farmers.So, son.. that's <b>not</b> how PvP works.

[Gane]

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>That's just how pvp works.  </p></blockquote>/chucklesPvP Total Kills: 46PvP Deaths: 228I could care less about the infamy system. But, I can say with confidence that at least 80% of those deaths were at the hands of title farmers.So, son.. that's <b>not</b> how PvP works.</blockquote><p>Okay mother, way to take my message out of context, turn it in to what you need it to be to try to make an argument in this thread.  </p><p><cite>Demron wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>No, my reasoning for agreeing to this thread is not becuase you're either 1)  a great ranged player or 2)  a wonderful runner, but rather, is that I do not feel it needs a change.  All class types <b>need</b> to be different with very little overlap in playstyle.  That's just how pvp works.  </p></blockquote><p>I've been playing MMORPG for a long time now, I've played multiple PvP setting with many years experience.</p><ul><li>EQ1 - 10 years, 3-4 years PvP on Rallos Zek / Sullon Zek</li><li>Dark Age of Camelot - 3-4 years <i>*Best PvP setting ever. Note: I got bored because the end game was boring, and after you capture and defend relics a couple dozen times, it gets old to repeat it. </i>Not only that DAoC had the best balanced reward system and people fought (PvP) because of it.</li><li>EQ2 - I started opening day, played a Mystic to the end game before the KoS expansion and quit for DDO. I came back months ago to try out the PvP because I love PvP, and love it.</li><li>DDO - 6 months -1 week PvP <i>*Awesome game, but not enough content to keep me busy, didn't want to repeat content I already did. This is not a PvP game, but if you love Dungeons and Dragons, you'll love this game, so long as you don't rush through the content.</i></li></ul><p>So my reasoning behind the fame system needing to be changed doesn't come from this game alone, even though I've got a 70 Ranger who can easily protect his fame, or a 37 Warlock who has to fight for his fame, but because I've seen better reward systems, and played with no reward system at all.</p></blockquote><p>Um, okay.. I've been walking for 25 years now, does that make my opinion on walking more or less valid than yours?  My point is that it doesn't matter how long you've been playing a game[s].  I stand by my, "if you want track, play a scout, if you want to nuke from a distance, play a mage, if you want to beat someone over the head with a shield, play a guardian.  Mages shouldn't shield bash, and guardians shouldn't track.  Because that's not what they do."</p><p>Also, for what it's worth, you can't compair PVP in DAoC to pvp anywhere else.  While I agree with you about DAoC's end game, the pvp was / is perfect in every way.</p>

[Earthshine]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dreamshadow</p><p>I have a good example of why the system needs to change, based off my PvP tonight on my 37 Warlock.</p><p>{{**First incident**}}</p><p>I bait an Assassin into attacking me, he does, I kill him. He brings a Brigand friend after a short period of time, and I kill them both. They then come back to my hunting spot and because I don't feel like leaving, and I don't have track to see anyone else who might be with them, I fight for my spot, my right to be there. Low and behold they had a healer hiding out of my line of sight who showed up after I engaged, and the three of them kill me.</p><p>A scout would have seen them all on track, evac'd or just ran, out running them.</p><p>That one death is more of a penalty to me, than the wins even against superior odds is a reward for me. Had I tried to sprint away, they could have easily killed me any how.</p><p>((**Second incident**}}</p><p>An assassin and dirge jump me, and I engage the fight because I know I can't out run a Bard who still has great in-combat runspeed and I know I have to get the assassin dead to minimize the damage. So I put the hurt to the assassin not noticing the dirge has yet to engage, noticing this I knew what was coming next. I am spanking the assassin and the dirge evacs them both away. They then come back with two others, and four people roll me, but not before I kill one of them because they had no healer. I gained nothing for fighting, but lost a ton because I had no other choice, but fight. Scouts could have run away, or evac'd, I couldn't.</p><p>{{**Third incident**}}</p><p>An Assassin and Fury jumps me, I stand and fight like a good little boy, rooting the Fury and leading the Assassin out of the Furies heal range and kill the Assassin, root breaks and the Fury kills me. Again, I fight against the odds and come out on the losing end.</p><p>But here is the kicker.. I'm forced to fight the odds, because I can't out run them, and I can't evac away.  So in every one of those situations a Scout who isn't going to fight is awarded because he loses no fame when he evac's, or runs, and I'm penalized because I am forced to fight against the odds, yet I'm not rewarded for it.</p></blockquote>The system does't need to be changed because you decided to make yourself an easy target. You laid claim to a particular territory and then were relieved of your "right" to be there by a stronger opposing force. As far as evac goes, or even stealth or so many other abilities offered by actual tools you can aquire in-game, there are such things as "locket of escape", totems, and even the option of grouping rather than insisting on solo PvP. </blockquote>What kind of an arguement is that? Escape lockets? Are you [Removed for Content] kidding me, you realize they cost 100k status each? And you can only use it once an hour, while a scout gets 4 evacs an hour for free + track and stealth. Awesome logic, dude. None of this would have mattered if you just didn't lose fame by dying in PvP, but as long as you do - it is so unbalanced it's not even funny.As for the "get a group"-arguement, that is pretty weak too. Why shouldn't a mage have a fair shot at solo pvp? Or a priest, or a fighter for that matter? What is your point exacty, that scouts <i>should</i> be the only viable option for soloists or people who like to move around without being in a group at all times? What does that say about the class balance in this game? Nevermind, you don't seem to care about that.... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>100k status vs. weak tactics- or group with one scout so you can have track and evac available- Thing is, the game was designed for GROUP activity, believe it or not but... Nevermind you dont seem to care about that.</p></blockquote>Incorrect. The game is supposed to be designed for people who enjoy grouping, raiding AND soloing. Ask any dev. Fame loss via decay instead of PvP death seems to be a simple and good way to bring more balance between the classes, and encourage people to PvP more. And <i>that</i> is what I care about. I love scouts, but lets get real.... there are 18 other classes to choose between too. PvP is so much more fun when more classes go out and take part in it. But as things are right now - you better stay in your city if you don't have a group, and are a non-tracker without evac who care about your title. I fail to see what's so great about that. </blockquote><p>First of all, anyone who rolls on a PvP server and then is afraid to go out of city because they aren't a scout or dont have a group or they risk losing their title does not belong on a PvP server.</p><p>And, you say you care about promoting more PvP. How will fame decay produce this? People WILL undeniably, inargueably /camp to bank fame. This isn't exactly producing more PvP is it? You say it seems to be the easiet, fastest way for a fix, yet you talk about a simple way of encoding something as complex as a formula that will fairly determine the rate of decay for those who decide to do other things besides PvP. Lets get real...</p>

[Spyderbite]

<cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Also, for what it's worth, you can't compair PVP in DAoC to pvp anywhere else.  While I agree with you about DAoC's end game, the pvp was / is perfect in every way.</p></blockquote>Go read the DAoC forums. The current players hardly believe that PvP in the game is "perfect in every way". That would be your opinion.PvP will never be perfect unless everyone has exactly the same stats, equipment & class/race. And, then people will complain about lack of diversity. Thus imperfect again.There's no such thing as "perfect PvP".

[Gane]

I played DAoC until a few months ago. Since launch. So, what i'm saying is, it's perfect in every way.  [see what i did there?]

[Norrsken]

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Also, for what it's worth, you can't compair PVP in DAoC to pvp anywhere else.  While I agree with you about DAoC's end game, the pvp was / is perfect in every way.</p></blockquote>Go read the DAoC forums. The current players hardly believe that PvP in the game is "perfect in every way". That would be your opinion.PvP will never be perfect unless everyone has exactly the same stats, equipment & class/race. And, then people will complain about lack of diversity. Thus imperfect again.There's no such thing as "perfect PvP".</blockquote>Imho (going out on a philosofical limb) to be perfect, you have to have flaws.

[kreepr]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ahh yes.  Because we know that rank is indicitive to skill and NOT the ability to run from a fight.  If more people were less picky about the fights they picked, there would be far fewer titles.  I honestly can't see myself ever titling.  Ever.  Why?  Becuase if you on to me, and are solo or in a small group, I'm going to come at you, for better or worse.  And the main difference between me and you, sir, is that I have to get 'all up in ur grill' before I can even dream on doing any serious damage. </p><p>Also, you have what you're asking for right in front of your eyes.  My signature is as honest as it's gonna get.</p><p>edit:  Correct me if I'm wrong;  Warlocks can do some serious hurt FROM A DISTANCE.  So read my message again.  Play a class with _no_ range and see how easy it is to title.  PS:  It isn't.</p></blockquote>Welcome to EQ2! Hope you will enjoy yourself and have tons of fun on Nagafen <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />... but when you are 70 (or I guess I should say 80), have a full set of PvP gear, and infamy is all there is left to gain - you might en up reconsidering what you just said. </blockquote><span style="color: #ff0000;">OH I see it boils down to a bored lev. 70 GOD that has done it all. I hate it when people use this excuse for anything. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></span>

[k9quaint]

DAOC was amazing and to date was the best PvP/RvR MMO. Yes, it had its problems and some games did certain things better than it did, but as a total package DAOC was head and shoulders above anything else.Caveat: DAOC pve was terrible when it first came out.

[Rhannnn]

<cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>That's just how pvp works.  </p></blockquote>/chucklesPvP Total Kills: 46PvP Deaths: 228I could care less about the infamy system. But, I can say with confidence that at least 80% of those deaths were at the hands of title farmers.So, son.. that's <b>not</b> how PvP works.</blockquote><p>Okay mother, way to take my message out of context, turn it in to what you need it to be to try to make an argument in this thread.  </p><p><cite>Demron wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>No, my reasoning for agreeing to this thread is not becuase you're either 1)  a great ranged player or 2)  a wonderful runner, but rather, is that I do not feel it needs a change.  All class types <b>need</b> to be different with very little overlap in playstyle.  That's just how pvp works.  </p></blockquote><p>I've been playing MMORPG for a long time now, I've played multiple PvP setting with many years experience.</p><ul><li>EQ1 - 10 years, 3-4 years PvP on Rallos Zek / Sullon Zek</li><li>Dark Age of Camelot - 3-4 years <i>*Best PvP setting ever. Note: I got bored because the end game was boring, and after you capture and defend relics a couple dozen times, it gets old to repeat it. </i>Not only that DAoC had the best balanced reward system and people fought (PvP) because of it.</li><li>EQ2 - I started opening day, played a Mystic to the end game before the KoS expansion and quit for DDO. I came back months ago to try out the PvP because I love PvP, and love it.</li><li>DDO - 6 months -1 week PvP <i>*Awesome game, but not enough content to keep me busy, didn't want to repeat content I already did. This is not a PvP game, but if you love Dungeons and Dragons, you'll love this game, so long as you don't rush through the content.</i></li></ul><p>So my reasoning behind the fame system needing to be changed doesn't come from this game alone, even though I've got a 70 Ranger who can easily protect his fame, or a 37 Warlock who has to fight for his fame, but because I've seen better reward systems, and played with no reward system at all.</p></blockquote><p>Um, okay.. I've been walking for 25 years now, does that make my opinion on walking more or less valid than yours?  My point is that it doesn't matter how long you've been playing a game[s].  I stand by my, "if you want track, play a scout, if you want to nuke from a distance, play a mage, if you want to beat someone over the head with a shield, play a guardian.  Mages shouldn't shield bash, and guardians shouldn't track.  Because that's not what they do."</p><p>Also, for what it's worth, you can't compair PVP in DAoC to pvp anywhere else.  While I agree with you about DAoC's end game, the pvp was / is perfect in every way.</p></blockquote><p>You opinion is as important as every other one. However your opinion is based on little knowledge of the EQ2 pvp game atm. In terms of real life you aren't a 25 year old guy but a minor. There is a reason why minors aren't allowed to drive cars or vote. One of these reasons is they don't have the experience to make a thought out judgement. </p><p>I hope i didn't offended you with this comparison, if I did I'm sorry. </p><p>Rhan </p><p>PS I do know how pvp without track is btw. My current 'project' is a lvl 20 Champ Warlock.</p>

[Gane]

<p>Oh but I AM 25 and I cast a moderate vote. Always have, always will. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />And you can't offend me. I don't know if you've noticed or not, but this is the internet. And we're 'fighting' on this here internet, which makes us both equally refarded* and stupid.*why is this word filtered?  Do people seriosly complain?</p><p>edit2:  that's right guys.  I've been walking since the instant i was born.  What of it, huh?!  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Amphibia]

<cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aenyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ahh yes.  Because we know that rank is indicitive to skill and NOT the ability to run from a fight.  If more people were less picky about the fights they picked, there would be far fewer titles.  I honestly can't see myself ever titling.  Ever.  Why?  Becuase if you on to me, and are solo or in a small group, I'm going to come at you, for better or worse.  And the main difference between me and you, sir, is that I have to get 'all up in ur grill' before I can even dream on doing any serious damage. </p><p>Also, you have what you're asking for right in front of your eyes.  My signature is as honest as it's gonna get.</p><p>edit:  Correct me if I'm wrong;  Warlocks can do some serious hurt FROM A DISTANCE.  So read my message again.  Play a class with _no_ range and see how easy it is to title.  PS:  It isn't.</p></blockquote>Welcome to EQ2! Hope you will enjoy yourself and have tons of fun on Nagafen <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />... but when you are 70 (or I guess I should say 80), have a full set of PvP gear, and infamy is all there is left to gain - you might en up reconsidering what you just said. </blockquote><span style="color: #ff0000;">OH I see it boils down to a bored lev. 70 GOD that has done it all. I hate it when people use this excuse for anything. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></span></blockquote>lol <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />I don't even have a full set yet, Mr Knows-It-All. But I think my point is valid enough, there isn't much more to PvP for when you get full faction and PvP gear, except titles. And if they are supposed to reflect skill in the game, then I think <u>all classes</u> should have a chance to climb in the system. Let me give you an example from my server, Nagafen:One of the best PvP'ers on our server is an illusionist named Pumpkin. You can look him up in EQ2 players if you like. He's a dreadnaught, and he soloes a lot. I think he's been that for quite a while now, and the reason he isn't higher ranked is obvious - he's a clothy with no track and evac. If that same guy had played a scout and been equally skilled at that, he would probably have made Overseer a long time ago.

[kreepr]

<cite>Rhannnn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You opinion is as important as every other one. However your opinion is based on little knowledge of the EQ2 pvp game atm. In terms of real life you aren't a 25 year old guy but a minor. There is a reason why minors aren't allowed to drive cars or vote. One of these reasons is they don't have the experience to make a thought out judgement. </p><p>I hope i didn't offended you with this comparison, if I did I'm sorry. </p><p>Rhan </p><p>PS I do know how pvp without track is btw. My current 'project' is a lvl 20 Champ Warlock.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">You LIE!!!!! According to Amphibia you cant get above destroyer with out track..........</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Just cause someone has played longer does not make them more knowledgeable... That's been proven many times over on these forums.</span></p>

[Amphibia]

<cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rhannnn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You opinion is as important as every other one. However your opinion is based on little knowledge of the EQ2 pvp game atm. In terms of real life you aren't a 25 year old guy but a minor. There is a reason why minors aren't allowed to drive cars or vote. One of these reasons is they don't have the experience to make a thought out judgement. </p><p>I hope i didn't offended you with this comparison, if I did I'm sorry. </p><p>Rhan </p><p>PS I do know how pvp without track is btw. My current 'project' is a lvl 20 Champ Warlock.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">You LIE!!!!! According to Amphibia you cant get above destroyer with out track..........</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Just cause someone has played longer does not make them more knowledgeable... That's been proven many times over on these forums.</span></p></blockquote>Upset? PS: Good research, but Amphibia is not my main. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[kreepr]

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote> <span style="color: #ff0000;">OH I see it boils down to a bored lev. 70 GOD that has done it all. I hate it when people use this excuse for anything. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></span></blockquote>lol <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />I don't even have a full set yet, Mr Knows-It-All. But I think my point is valid enough, there isn't much more to PvP for when you get full faction and PvP gear, except titles. And if they are supposed to reflect skill in the game, then I think <u>all classes</u> should have a chance to climb in the system. Let me give you an example from my server, Nagafen:One of the best PvP'ers on our server is an illusionist named Pumpkin. You can look him up in EQ2 players if you like. He's a dreadnaught, and he soloes a lot. I think he's been that for quite a while now, and the reason he isn't higher ranked is obvious - he's a clothy with no track and evac. If that same guy had played a scout and been equally skilled at that, he would probably have made Overseer a long time ago. </blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I look at the game for what it is there are differences in all classes that are there and should be. I play a Dirge I'm a Destroyer I group alot and solo some. I am meant for a group I accepted that when I rolled the toon. I love my Dirge a blast to play and don't get me wrong I can solo I am able to and effectively but I am MUCH stronger in a group so I roll in groups every chance I get. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Every class does have the chance to clime the system. I am going to check the leader boards and get some facts rather then just opinion.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">By the way I am just poking fun at you not really trying to offend you KK <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span> </p>

[Cyst]

I'm not even sure why we're arguing about it at this point, because the system IS going to change. It's not working as they intended it.

[kreepr]

<cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not even sure why we're arguing about it at this point, because the system IS going to change. It's not working as they intended it.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">That's what we are debating how it should change or rather implement something that will help fix the real problem.....</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Who's arguing??????</span></p>

[Gane]

I AM BECAUSE I'M ALWAYS RIGHT! (No, I'm not. I just wanted to shove my 2cp down your collective internet throat)

[Cyst]

<cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not even sure why we're arguing about it at this point, because the system IS going to change. It's not working as they intended it.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">That's what we are debating how it should change or rather implement something that will help fix the real problem.....</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Who's arguing??????</span></p></blockquote><p>The title of the thread is; "no, please do not change the current title system". Not, how should we change or fix the problems that revolve around the current title system.</p>

[Cyst]

<p>We've gone over this before, in multiple threads and I've stated my ultimate changes I would like to see on the current PvP servers as I'll paste below. I have a lot of other solutions to PvP, changes I think should be made, but I will only paste the ones I first put forth.</p><p>I'm more than happy to discuss changes that need to be made, and the current fame system is among the things that needs a change.</p><p>Griffons, Carpets, Horses, and Clouds.</p><ul><li>30 second reuse timer.</li></ul><p>Zoning</p><ul><li>30 second reuse (cool down) timer before you can zone again.</li></ul><p>Evacuation</p><ul><li>20 minute reuse timer. </li><li>120 second immunity timer.</li></ul><p>Deaths</p><ul><li>240 second immunity timer. </li><li>All attack based abilities stifled for 240 seconds (during immunity timer). <i>You can still buff.</i></li></ul><p>Docks: Thundering Steepes, Nekt Forest, and Butcherblock.</p><ul><li>No immunity. </li><li>Put up NPC translocaters that will take you from one location to the other, without needing the boats. </li><li>Move Heritage quest merchants to the cities so you can safely buy back a HQ item.</li></ul><p>Player vs. Player CHANGES!</p><ul><li>Have full suits of fabled armor and jewelry for each class, for each tier, bought with insignias. </li><li>Have titles you can purchase with insignias. Even though I like the above suggestion, I think it would be best to allow titles that are only available through purchase, titles you have to decide between them, or your PvP gear. If you want both, you have to do a lot of killing to attain it.</li></ul><p>Cities: Kelethin, Neriak, Freeport, and Qeynos.</p><ul><li>Open PvP with a 4 level restriction. Really sucks giving up first attack capabilities. </li><li>Double insignia rewards. </li><li>Double status rewards.</li><li>Give banks and crafting houses PvP immunity.</li></ul>

[kreepr]

<cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not even sure why we're arguing about it at this point, because the system IS going to change. It's not working as they intended it.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">That's what we are debating how it should change or </span><span style="color: #66cc00;">rather implement something that will help fix the real problem.....</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Who's arguing??????</span></p></blockquote><p>The title of the thread is; "no, please do not change the current title system". Not, how should we change or fix the problems that revolve around the current title system.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">OK if you would bother to either read or retain what you have read that I post I have offered changes not to the title system but to things that will help to provide more PVP.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">OH and your changes IMO all suck and should NEVER be implemented. If I remember right that about how these where accepted the last time you presented them.With the exception to the Tokens dropping and being used to buy PVP armor sets at all levels. One diamond in all your rough.</span></p>

[Earthshine]

<cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not even sure why we're arguing about it at this point, because the system IS going to change. It's not working as they intended it.</blockquote>Please post some facts as to why this is true- not because you reallly really really want it to be so...

[kreepr]

<cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not even sure why we're arguing about it at this point, because the system IS going to change. It's not working as they intended it.</blockquote>Please post some facts as to why this is true- not because you reallly really really want it to be so...</blockquote><span style="color: #ff0000;">There where a few people that talked to the Devs at fan fair and it was mentioned. There is a thread on it but I have still not seen any devs post and say it will be changed- I could be wrong wont be the first time- But Xova is really reliable and unbiased when it comes to Info and had made the suggestion to the devs about decay and they seemed to think it MIGHT work. There still just as much of a chance it doesnt change and they fix the real problem.</span>

[Earthshine]

<cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not even sure why we're arguing about it at this point, because the system IS going to change. It's not working as they intended it.</blockquote>Please post some facts as to why this is true- not because you reallly really really want it to be so...</blockquote><span style="color: #ff0000;">There where a few people that talked to the Devs at fan fair and it was mentioned. There is a thread on it but I have still not seen any devs post and say it will be changed- I could be wrong wont be the first time- But Xova is really reliable and unbiased when it comes to Info and had made the suggestion to the devs about decay and they seemed to think it MIGHT work. There still just as much of a chance it doesnt change and they fix the real problem.</span></blockquote><p>this is the thread you are referring to:<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=375427" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=375427</a></p><p>and here is the only mention of any potential changes that were being considered regarding fame/infamy.</p><li>Infamy - the devs admitted that the infamy system needs to be revisted and that it is not working the way they intended it to. They also admitted that they were stumped as to how to fix it. I got Archonix's email and am going to send him a list of ldeas, but the one I am pushing for most is to remove infamy loss via PvP death and add infamy loss through decay (lack of PvP.) It makes the most sense-lorewise, so we'll see.</li>

[Spider]

accualy  what there proposing is a copy of the system used in swg thats extreemly successfula nd fun and does nothign but encourage pvp

[Xova]

<cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not even sure why we're arguing about it at this point, because the system IS going to change. It's not working as they intended it.</blockquote>Please post some facts as to why this is true- not because you reallly really really want it to be so...</blockquote><p>Well, based on the conversations I got to have at Fan Faire, I think I can reasonably say that the Developers agree that the system is not working as they originally envisioned it, and that it does need to change. How that change will occur (and when) is a good question. With RoK coming up, and the Developers' time being spent on that, I don't think it's too likely that we'll see anything big happen on the pvp front before RoK's release. That doesn't mean we can't discuss it as a community though, and give the developers some kind of idea of what we would like to see. I think hashing everything out like this makes the developers' job a little easier in fact.</p><p>So will the system change? Most likely, yes. How and when will it change? I have no clue. I just know that the more efficient and effective the change is to implement, the more likely it is to happen sooner rather than later.</p>

[Shangu]

<p>I think the fame based system makes no sense as it currently is.  If you are running around with no title and kill a Slayer, why should you not get fame?  A champion should lose fame should he get killed by an untitled player.  The one rank above and below makes no sense and encourages this:</p><p>player 1: "group of lvl 17 freeps in caves"</p><p>Player 2: "titles?"</p><p>So if they do not have the titles you need for your fame quest, you will not go fight them?</p><p>All kills should result in some fame gain.  All deaths should result in fame loss regardless of titles.</p>

[Cyst]

<cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not even sure why we're arguing about it at this point, because the system IS going to change. It's not working as they intended it.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">That's what we are debating how it should change or </span><span style="color: #66cc00;">rather implement something that will help fix the real problem.....</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Who's arguing??????</span></p></blockquote><p>The title of the thread is; "no, please do not change the current title system". Not, how should we change or fix the problems that revolve around the current title system.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">OK if you would bother to either read or retain what you have read that I post I have offered changes not to the title system but to things that will help to provide more PVP.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">OH and your changes IMO all suck and should NEVER be implemented. If I remember right that about how these where accepted the last time you presented them.With the exception to the Tokens dropping and being used to buy PVP armor sets at all levels. One diamond in all your rough.</span></p></blockquote>I have yet to see you offer any changes, or solutions, but you're good at telling others their solutions suck without giving reasons why. Keep trolling.

[Wildfury77]

<cite>Xova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not even sure why we're arguing about it at this point, because the system IS going to change. It's not working as they intended it.</blockquote>Please post some facts as to why this is true- not because you reallly really really want it to be so...</blockquote><p>Well, based on the conversations I got to have at Fan Faire, I think I can reasonably say that the Developers agree that the system is not working as they originally envisioned it, and that it does need to change. How that change will occur (and when) is a good question. With RoK coming up, and the Developers' time being spent on that, I don't think it's too likely that we'll see anything big happen on the pvp front before RoK's release. That doesn't mean we can't discuss it as a community though, and give the developers some kind of idea of what we would like to see. I think hashing everything out like this makes the developers' job a little easier in fact.</p><p>So will the system change? Most likely, yes. How and when will it change? I have no clue. I just know that the more efficient and effective the change is to implement, the more likely it is to happen sooner rather than later.</p></blockquote>I shuddered when i realised who had spoken to the Devs at fanfaire ---> Wish i hadn't been working a hospital nightshift that week <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> Lets hope they don't plan on dumbing down PvP difficulty/nerfing titles based on those discussions......

[Spider]

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not even sure why we're arguing about it at this point, because the system IS going to change. It's not working as they intended it.</blockquote>Please post some facts as to why this is true- not because you reallly really really want it to be so...</blockquote><p>Well, based on the conversations I got to have at Fan Faire, I think I can reasonably say that the Developers agree that the system is not working as they originally envisioned it, and that it does need to change. How that change will occur (and when) is a good question. With RoK coming up, and the Developers' time being spent on that, I don't think it's too likely that we'll see anything big happen on the pvp front before RoK's release. That doesn't mean we can't discuss it as a community though, and give the developers some kind of idea of what we would like to see. I think hashing everything out like this makes the developers' job a little easier in fact.</p><p>So will the system change? Most likely, yes. How and when will it change? I have no clue. I just know that the more efficient and effective the change is to implement, the more likely it is to happen sooner rather than later.</p></blockquote>I shuddered when i realised who had spoken to the Devs at fanfaire ---> Wish i hadn't been working a hospital nightshift that week <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"> Lets hope they don't plan on dumbing down PvP difficulty/nerfing titles based on those discussions......</blockquote><p>wow that was a totaly rediculous and uncalled for comment </p><p>why dont u go back to cleaning bed pans  and leave the  the real discussions to the big boys and girls</p>

[Amphibia]

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not even sure why we're arguing about it at this point, because the system IS going to change. It's not working as they intended it.</blockquote>Please post some facts as to why this is true- not because you reallly really really want it to be so...</blockquote><p>Well, based on the conversations I got to have at Fan Faire, I think I can reasonably say that the Developers agree that the system is not working as they originally envisioned it, and that it does need to change. How that change will occur (and when) is a good question. With RoK coming up, and the Developers' time being spent on that, I don't think it's too likely that we'll see anything big happen on the pvp front before RoK's release. That doesn't mean we can't discuss it as a community though, and give the developers some kind of idea of what we would like to see. I think hashing everything out like this makes the developers' job a little easier in fact.</p><p>So will the system change? Most likely, yes. How and when will it change? I have no clue. I just know that the more efficient and effective the change is to implement, the more likely it is to happen sooner rather than later.</p></blockquote>I shuddered when i realised who had spoken to the Devs at fanfaire ---> Wish i hadn't been working a hospital nightshift that week <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /> Lets hope they don't plan on dumbing down PvP difficulty/nerfing titles based on those discussions......</blockquote>By making it sound like something personal like this, you make me think that I'm glad it wasn't you.... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />PS: You can still voice your opinion here, like the rest of us.

[Earthshine]

<cite>Xova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not even sure why we're arguing about it at this point, because the system IS going to change. It's not working as they intended it.</blockquote>Please post some facts as to why this is true- not because you reallly really really want it to be so...</blockquote><p>Well, based on the conversations I got to have at Fan Faire, I think I can reasonably say that the Developers agree that the system is not working as they originally envisioned it, and that it does need to change. How that change will occur (and when) is a good question. With RoK coming up, and the Developers' time being spent on that, I don't think it's too likely that we'll see anything big happen on the pvp front before RoK's release. That doesn't mean we can't discuss it as a community though, and give the developers some kind of idea of what we would like to see. I think hashing everything out like this makes the developers' job a little easier in fact.</p><p>So will the system change? Most likely, yes. How and when will it change? I have no clue. I just know that the more efficient and effective the change is to implement, the more likely it is to happen sooner rather than later.</p></blockquote><p>Hi Xova,</p><p>I appreciate your response and your effort to inform the community about what is in the works. But, about the proposed changes, do you really think fame decay is the solution? People will undoubtably find new ways to exploit the way fame/infamy works. Is it really fair to penalize a player for doing something other than PvP? If I am out doing something as boring as harvesting, its really not all that boring because I'm constantly looking around and being as aware as possible of an incoming attack. If I get hit and go down I lost something and experienced the humility of defeat- and we all know dropping from destroyer to slayer or whatever rank you are- is at least a little humiliating. Instead, if my title is decaying or I would suffer no loss for death I would be penalized for the time spent trying to improve my character and harvesting would become as boring as I can imagine it is on blue server. The point I am trying to make is that the entire thrill of being on a PvP server is that risk of losing something- even if its just that little bit of pride. I'm sure there is a better solution that will promote PvP actvity and the best idea I've heard is PvP related quests or writs- sort of like the quest to spawn the Black Market where you have to kill a member of the opposing faction to complete the quest. </p><p>"Fame" decay worked fine in World of Warcraft because your title was determined by the amount of honor points you gained during the week in comparison with other players of the same rank. It was slow enough so that if you didnt PvP or didnt earn enough honor then it wouldnt afffect your rank immediately- and you wouldnt gain a rank until the system calculated honor earned which happened after every weekly shutdown maintenence. The reason why it worked at all was because of the battlegrounds available which offered perpetual PvP. But, it was decided at some point that the Honor system being used did not offer the casual player adequate access to the rewards available as it did to those who could PvP "full-time". They ultimately abandoned titles in the game and the only rewards available were armor, mounts, and items that could be purchased with the honor points won (instead of the items being available after you achieved the required rank).</p><p>In contrast, Eq2 PvP is designed to take place in the "real" game world. Compared to WoW, Eq2 pvp is hardcore to the extreme. People pour tons of money and time to have a t2 super-twink. New players that might get their feelings hurt really dont belong on a PvP server and an experienced player willing to accept the challenge of rolling a new character knows what to expect. Instead of removing level-locking as a last resort, or even just raising the level a player can lock, SoE should post an advisory to new players about rolling on a PvP server or make everyone sign a waiver, lol. It's not supposed to be easy or a long grind to the top. It's supposed to be a brutal, humiliating, ipwnurface, all-out WAR. There are certainly other immediate concerns that can be addressed in regards to PvP mechanics before we should even think about changing the means by which players earn the ever-so-coveted PvP title.</p>

[Xova]

<p>*pats Wildfury77 on the head*</p><p>I swear I think your day just isn't complete until I've paid attention to you. Feel better now? Do you need a hug?</p><p><cite></cite></p><p><cite></cite></p><p><cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hi Xova,</p><p><span style="color: #9900ff;">Hello dreamshadow!</span></p><p>I appreciate your response and your effort to inform the community about what is in the works.</p><p><span style="color: #9900ff;">Thank you! It's nice to be appreciated. </span></p><p>But, about the proposed changes, do you really think fame decay is the solution?</p><p><span style="color: #9900ff;">Personally my preference would be to remove the titles altogether, or make them purchasable like I posted elsewhere. The idea for infamy decay actually originated from Archonix and Lyndro (their comment was that it was something they could easily do) and I merely carried it to the forums to get an idea of the player's response to it. </span></p><p>People will undoubtably find new ways to exploit the way fame/infamy works.</p><p><span style="color: #9900ff;">PvP'ers are notorious for finding creative uses of ingame mechanics, are they not? </span></p><p>Is it really fair to penalize a player for doing something other than PvP? If I am out doing something as boring as harvesting, its really not all that boring because I'm constantly looking around and being as aware as possible of an incoming attack. If I get hit and go down I lost something and experienced the humility of defeat- and we all know dropping from destroyer to slayer or whatever rank you are- is at least a little humiliating. Instead, if my title is decaying or I would suffer no loss for death I would be penalized for the time spent trying to improve my character and harvesting would become as boring as I can imagine it is on blue server.</p><p><span style="color: #9900ff;">To answer your question first, no - it isn't fair to penalize a player for doing something other than PvP'ing. To expand upon that, I think I, and especially Amphibia, have tried to emphasize that a decay system would have to take into account the fact that players will do things in-game other than PvP such as crafting, harvesting, questing, etc., and that decay would need to happen at a rate appropriate to that. There has been a lot of good discussion on that subject, and it's important to bring things like that up so that the developers can look at the proposed system from all sides and see if it is really feasible or not.</span></p><p>The point I am trying to make is that the entire thrill of being on a PvP server is that risk of losing something- even if its just that little bit of pride. I'm sure there is a better solution that will promote PvP actvity and the best idea I've heard is PvP related quests or writs- sort of like the quest to spawn the Black Market where you have to kill a member of the opposing faction to complete the quest.</p><p><span style="color: #9900ff;">I think the thrill in being on a PvP server is not so much about the risk of loss as it is the challenge of comepting against a live player. That is not a mob you are fighting who relies on AI technology and coding. That is a living, breathing human being operating that character who not only will fight you but will think while doing so. A human opponent is much more unpredictable than a raid mob that uses a DoT attack every 30 seconds and THAT is where the thrill comes in. You have no idea what your opponent is going to do next, and so YOU are then challenged to think on your feet and respond quickly to the changing battle.</span></p><p><span style="color: #9900ff;">That said, I too like the idea of quests, etc. as I stated previously. I think it will be some time though before we get to see anything like that, the Soon™-est most likely being next year after RoK has been released and the major kinks are worked out. So there's no reason we can't discuss those options now to give the developers a head start on additional PvP content. But, there's also no reason we can't find a more immediate solution to some of the more pressing PvP problems and thus kick-start PvP as it is now.</span></p><p>"Fame" decay worked fine in World of Warcraft because your title was determined by the amount of honor points you gained during the week in comparison with other players of the same rank. It was slow enough so that if you didnt PvP or didnt earn enough honor then it wouldnt afffect your rank immediately- and you wouldnt gain a rank until the system calculated honor earned which happened after every weekly shutdown maintenence. The reason why it worked at all was because of the battlegrounds available which offered perpetual PvP. But, it was decided at some point that the Honor system being used did not offer the casual player adequate access to the rewards available as it did to those who could PvP "full-time". They ultimately abandoned titles in the game and the only rewards available were armor, mounts, and items that could be purchased with the honor points won (instead of the items being available after you achieved the required rank).</p><p><span style="color: #9900ff;">Yes and there's a lesson to be learned there. Kind of wondering if people get it. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></span></p><p>In contrast, Eq2 PvP is designed to take place in the "real" game world. Compared to WoW, Eq2 pvp is hardcore to the extreme. People pour tons of money and time to have a t2 super-twink. New players that might get their feelings hurt really dont belong on a PvP server and an experienced player willing to accept the challenge of rolling a new character knows what to expect. Instead of removing level-locking as a last resort, or even just raising the level a player can lock, SoE should post an advisory to new players about rolling on a PvP server or make everyone sign a waiver, lol. It's not supposed to be easy or a long grind to the top. It's supposed to be a brutal, humiliating, ipwnurface, all-out WAR. There are certainly other immediate concerns that can be addressed in regards to PvP mechanics before we should even think about changing the means by which players earn the ever-so-coveted PvP title.</p><p><span style="color: #9900ff;">Well, I don't agree that PvP here is all that "hardcore", lol. Vanguard's FFA server was far more hardcore than this ever was. I remember when the banks didn't work in Vanguard and you had to create a lowbie alt, then mail your money to the alt, praying that the mail system wouldn't screw up and not work, all the while glancing over your shoulder and hoping that someone 20 levels higher than you wasn't rushing up from behind to wtfpwn your face in and steal all your copper. But I digress. You could PvP in the open world with WoW, but I think most people who wanted to earn honor points and rewards tended to PvP in the battlegrounds. So it seems WoW and EQ2 have shown that people do value rewards and will work hard to achieve those things that give them a measure of visible prestige, and so if there is a way to keep titles then it would be good to attempt to. Unfortunately, EQ2 has a risk factor attached to those titles that is inhibiting PvP. At the core of the proposal is the understanding that most people do not like to experience visible loss. A loss of a title that you have no choice but to display is a visible loss. So, given that that is the problem, what possible solutions can we come up with for it? Give people an option to turn the title off? Implement a decay system? Make the titles static and interchangeable like the nobility titles? Title decay seemed like a good choice because it only changed how people lose titles - not how they gained them. There's all other sorts of details we could get into with it, but that is the main feature of it.</span></p></blockquote><p>Comments in <span style="color: #9900ff;">purple</span> to dreamshadow. And a big raspberry to my BFF Wildfury77. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Earthshine]

<p>The only thing about abandoning the titles regarding WoW is that a great number of people were disappointed with that change. If this were to happen here, I believe it would disappoint more people than it would satisfy. </p><p>Truth is- titles are cool. People PvP to get that cool title. Even HQ titles are cool- they carry prestige and accomplishment. Don't know about Vanguard, but I was comparing to WoW- and yes the thrill of real time combat is essentially what PvP is, but the exclusive risk of losing something to defeat preserves that feeling of being in harm's way- without that PvP will be just like it was on WoW- child's play...</p><p>As it stands, people suffer the visible loss of a title they have no choice to display and that some dont want to suffer that loss. If you are "famous" for killing someone of the opposite faction you can't just walk into Qeynos or Freeport with a pair of sunglasses<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> on and go grocery shopping. You will be recognized and you will be hunted. If people's feelings are that brittle as to demand that defeat should not be humiliating then they should not enter the competition. BTW, I lost destroyer today- more QQ plz...<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[eevviill0]

there is nothing that anybody can say that will change the fact that the titles NEED to be changed.

[Earthshine]

<cite>Eevviill@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>there is nothing that anybody can say that will change the fact that the titles NEED to be changed.</blockquote>Good arguement....

[Norrsken]

<cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eevviill@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>there is nothing that anybody can say that will change the fact that the titles NEED to be changed.</blockquote>Good arguement....</blockquote>more of a statement than an argument honestly.

[Tristan3000]

<span class="postbody">Dreamshadow, would you please stop your pathetic attempts to push forward your agenda with double and triple posts (which make your thread look more important than it actually is), thanks.</span>

[convict]

Just said in chat 2 lvl 17 in caves.... I get a tell that says..... wait for it...... "Do the 2 17's have titles?" So I asked, do they have to have titles in order to kill them? I get called a [Removed for Content]..lol.. That's one example of why the fame system needs changed...

[Earthshine]

<cite>Tristan3000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><span class="postbody">Dreamshadow, would you please stop your pathetic attempts to push forward your agenda with double and triple posts (which make your thread look more important than it actually is), thanks</span></blockquote><p>I'm sorry, your petition to get useless bard instruments in-game didn't work out? Seems like pathetic is one of your favorite words. Now, can you try and post a response that has something to do with the topic, or should we just use the forums to trivialize and insult others. Oh wait, that's what PvP is for... /duel ftl</p>

[Cyst]

<cite>dreamshadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The only thing about abandoning the titles regarding WoW is that a great number of people were disappointed with that change. If this were to happen here, I believe it would disappoint more people than it would satisfy. </p><p>Truth is- titles are cool. People PvP to get that cool title. Even HQ titles are cool- they carry prestige and accomplishment. Don't know about Vanguard, but I was comparing to WoW- and yes the thrill of real time combat is essentially what PvP is, but the exclusive risk of losing something to defeat preserves that feeling of being in harm's way- without that PvP will be just like it was on WoW- child's play...</p><p>As it stands, people suffer the visible loss of a title they have no choice to display and that some dont want to suffer that loss. If you are "famous" for killing someone of the opposite faction you can't just walk into Qeynos or Freeport with a pair of sunglasses<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> on and go grocery shopping. You will be recognized and you will be hunted. If people's feelings are that brittle as to demand that defeat should not be humiliating then they should not enter the competition. BTW, I lost destroyer today- more QQ plz...<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote><p>T2-T6 you PvP for Status and Faction. T7 you PvP for Status, and Insignia's. So Status, Faction and eventually Insignias are PvP essentials. You havn't even experienced PvP if you believe titles are the only reason to PvP.</p><p>And anyone regardless of titles, or not who goes into the enemies city will be hunted. And peoples names and actions speak for them, not thier title.</p>

[holypaladin28]

<cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>We've gone over this before, in multiple threads and I've stated my ultimate changes I would like to see on the current PvP servers as I'll paste below. I have a lot of other solutions to PvP, changes I think should be made, but I will only paste the ones I first put forth.</p><p>I'm more than happy to discuss changes that need to be made, and the current fame system is among the things that needs a change.</p><p>Griffons, Carpets, Horses, and Clouds.</p><ul><li>30 second reuse timer.<span style="color: #990000;">then you would have raids just sitting on the ttower clouds and if you just happen to fly in going toa zone your dead could be abused to easy but something needs to be fixed but who knows</span></li></ul><p>Zoning</p><ul><li>30 second reuse (cool down) timer before you can zone again.<span style="color: #993300;">it would have to be longer then 30 seconds and again promotes gankers camping zonelines </span></li></ul><p>Evacuation</p><ul><li>20 minute reuse timer. </li><li>120 second immunity timer.<span style="color: #990000;">not bad </span></li></ul><p>Deaths</p><ul><li>240 second immunity timer. <span style="color: #cc0000;">to long i dont wanna wait 4 minutes until i can do anything. i favorif you attack with rez sickness you lose status tokens infamy again</span></li><li>All attack based abilities stifled for 240 seconds (during immunity timer). <i>You can still buff.<span style="color: #990000;">see abovre  or maybe they only have 10 percent life also</span></i></li></ul><p>Docks: Thundering Steepes, Nekt Forest, and Butcherblock.</p><ul><li>No immunity. <span style="color: #990000;">dont see alot of pvp in those zones tbh</span></li><li>Put up NPC translocaters that will take you from one location to the other, without needing the boats. </li><li>Move Heritage quest merchants to the cities so you can safely buy back a HQ item.</li></ul><p>Player vs. Player CHANGES!</p><ul><li>Have full suits of fabled armor and jewelry for each class, for each tier, bought with insignias. </li><li>Have titles you can purchase with insignias. Even though I like the above suggestion, I think it would be best to allow titles that are only available through purchase, titles you have to decide between them, or your PvP gear. If you want both, you have to do a lot of killing to attain it.</li></ul><p>Cities: Kelethin, Neriak, Freeport, and Qeynos.</p><ul><li>Open PvP with a 4 level restriction. Really sucks giving up first attack capabilities. </li><li>Double insignia rewards. </li><li>Double status rewards.</li><li>Give banks and crafting houses PvP immunity.<span style="color: #990000;">again kinda iffy you might have people coming home from raids naked and have no chance if they can be attaked solo plus how would you shop though i do like the double rewards for city killing and if they did thi havan needs to be opened up also would like to see enemy evacs dont work inside the city </span></li></ul></blockquote>

[k9quaint]

Half the people will always dislike titles and the system that determines them. I leave it to you to guess which half <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Norrsken]

<cite>Quaintadin@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Half the people will always dislike titles and the system that determines them. I leave it to you to guess which half <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>The half that dont think running is much of a skill and that it is being overly rewarded?

[Xova]

<cite>Quaintadin@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Half the people will always dislike titles and the system that determines them. I leave it to you to guess which half <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>The half that have "been there, done that" with titles and came to the realization that the title system AS IT STANDS is hindering PvP more than it is encouraging it, and thus want to recommend changes that will perhaps encourage people to stop running with their titles clutched firmly to their chests and just get out and PvP.</p>

[k9quaint]

You mean, mindless killing with nobody keeping score so terrible players don't have to be embarrassed. The door to World of Warcraft is over there, they have that sort of PvP done very well, and you would probably fit right in.I am not a fan of perma-immunity from docks or evac. I am not a fan of zoning back and forth to refresh immunity. They can tweak those and it would make me happier.But I want to kill people who are trying *NOT* to die. I don't like to kill people who are just zerging because they have nothing to lose. If I run down that guy with the Master title and finally kill him/her, I want it to mean something.

[Xova]

<cite>Quaintadin@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You mean, mindless killing with nobody keeping score so terrible players don't have to be embarrassed. The door to World of Warcraft is over there, they have that sort of PvP done very well, and you would probably fit right in.I am not a fan of perma-immunity from docks or evac. I am not a fan of zoning back and forth to refresh immunity. They can tweak those and it would make me happier.But I want to kill people who are trying *NOT* to die. I don't like to kill people who are just zerging because they have nothing to lose. If I run down that guy with the Master title and finally kill him/her, I want it to mean something.</blockquote><p>I've played WoW, and while it's a nice game, it's not the game for me. Thanks for the concern though.</p><p>What makes you think removing fame loss will result in an endless zerg? Do you not think people will still run to preserve a kill count? Their KvD ratio? Has it occured to you that people just simply don't like to die?</p><p>There will still be enough runners to give chase to. But hopefully the number that will turn and fight will be greater than the number of those that will flee. Which, as Martha would say, is a good thing. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[k9quaint]

The dumbing down of rewards isn't the answer. Tone down the ability to run.Diminishing returns on zone immunity & dock immunity. 30 seconds for evac. Give people a chance to run, and give people a chance to catch those who run. Right now, there isn't much worth fighting over *other* than titles. There needs to be more things to fight over, not less. People who want to take away the things that matter in PvP should go over to WoW where nothing matters. The PvP there is already a mindless faction & point grind full of bots and players who don't care whether they live or die. Stop trying to turn EQ2, where the score is kept, into little league where everyone gets a trophy just for showing up.

[Amphibia]

<cite>Quaintadin@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You mean, mindless killing with nobody keeping score so terrible players don't have to be embarrassed. The door to World of Warcraft is over there, they have that sort of PvP done very well, and you would probably fit right in.I am not a fan of perma-immunity from docks or evac. I am not a fan of zoning back and forth to refresh immunity. They can tweak those and it would make me happier.But I want to kill people who are trying *NOT* to die. I don't like to kill people who are just zerging because they have nothing to lose. If I run down that guy with the Master title and finally kill him/her, I want it to mean something.</blockquote>As if zerging isn't happening right now? It's a lowrisk methode to get your fame back, or at least some of it if you get killed. And nobody would just stand there and let you kill them if they didn't lose fame. Do you do that? The idea is just against human nature. Doesn't really matter if you lose something or not, because nobody likes to lose. Period. But to lose something you may have worked pretty [Removed for Content] hard for to things you cannot control... such as being ganked by a group, is something that makes a lot of people not wanna PvP at all anymore unless they can run in a perfect group. I mean, why bother when there is so little to gain and so much to lose? It is just unfun, and frustrating. And it makes people want to avoid PvP, instead of seeking it. PS: Looks like you have a helluva long way to go before it will ever "mean something" for you to hunt down that guy with a Master title.  

[k9quaint]

<cite>Niryan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quaintadin@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You mean, mindless killing with nobody keeping score so terrible players don't have to be embarrassed. The door to World of Warcraft is over there, they have that sort of PvP done very well, and you would probably fit right in.I am not a fan of perma-immunity from docks or evac. I am not a fan of zoning back and forth to refresh immunity. They can tweak those and it would make me happier.But I want to kill people who are trying *NOT* to die. I don't like to kill people who are just zerging because they have nothing to lose. If I run down that guy with the Master title and finally kill him/her, I want it to mean something.</blockquote>As if zerging isn't happening right now? It's a lowrisk methode to get your fame back, or at least some of it if you get killed. And nobody would just stand there and let you kill them if they didn't lose fame. Do you do that? The idea is just against human nature. Doesn't really matter if you lose something or not, because nobody likes to lose. Period. But to lose something you may have worked pretty [I cannot control my vocabulary] hard for to things you cannot control... such as being ganked by a group, is something that makes a lot of people not wanna PvP at all anymore unless they can run in a perfect group. I mean, why bother when there is so little to gain and so much to lose? It is just unfun, and frustrating. And it makes people want to avoid PvP, instead of seeking it. PS: Looks like you have a helluva long way to go before it will ever "mean something" for you to hunt down that guy with a Master title.  </blockquote>You won't see masters and overseer's zerging. People stand around in WoW and let themselves be killed because they lose nothing, and that *is* human nature. There is plenty to gain in EQ2, and you can control whether or not you are grouped, so don't complain about being ganked by a group when you run solo. And why shouldn't people try to be in the perfect group? What is wrong with striving for perfection? If some classes are left out, perhaps you should buff those classes rather than nerf everything else? Clearly, you want the rest of the game removed, except for those little bits which play to your strengths.

[Cyst]

<cite>Quaintadin@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Half the people will always dislike titles and the system that determines them. I leave it to you to guess which half <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>Who would that half be? I think the current system is broke and I have a 70 Dreadnaught Ranger who could get Master if I was so inclined, but I hate chasing people for four hours because they refuse to fight. I have a 39 Destroyer (Warlock) who could be Champion in a day or two if I wasn't out questing for AAs. I'm trying to figure out who these people are you speak of.</p><p>There are a multitude of reasons to PvP now, and those are faction, status, and once you hit T7 Insignias. Titles are for people who think they have to prove something, and usually they only prove how cowardly they are. I was once the same way on my Ranger, I'd evac, run from fights, what ever to keep my title, and one day, it got very, very boring to me. So I made my Warlock and everyone and their brother engages him in combat, and it has been the most fun I have had in awhile, and they lock because he is a caster.</p><p>I want to fight, not chase people for hours on end with nothing but frustration to show for it after hours of game play.</p>

[Xova]

<cite>Quaintadin@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The dumbing down of rewards isn't the answer. Tone down the ability to run.Diminishing returns on zone immunity & dock immunity. 30 seconds for evac. Give people a chance to run, and give people a chance to catch those who run. Right now, there isn't much worth fighting over *other* than titles. There needs to be more things to fight over, not less. People who want to take away the things that matter in PvP should go over to WoW where nothing matters. The PvP there is already a mindless faction & point grind full of bots and players who don't care whether they live or die. Stop trying to turn EQ2, where the score is kept, into little league where everyone gets a trophy just for showing up.</blockquote><p>Ok first - dispense with the hostility. There's no need for it.</p><p>Second, please stop with the "go to WoW" argument. It's tiresome, ineffective, and detracts from what could otherwise be a good argument on your part.</p><p>Finally, the point is not to "dumb down" the game nor is it to take away the rewards. The point is to remove a risk factor that is unfortunately hindering PvP in order to breathe new life into PvP while we wait for more substantial changes to (hopefully) come in the next year. The idea that was proposed, and what I *think* this thread is in response to, is the idea of fame decay - where fame is lost not through death but from a failure to PvP, and the rewards are made exponentially harder to attain. Title gain remains the same. Title loss does not.</p><p>A lot of the people arguing in favor of changing the title system are people who have already got the high titles. I have a lvl54 Defiler with a scant 39 AA's who has a General title and I've had that title since the day EoF went live. I don't exactly play on easymode and I've been pretty fine playing a game that has never played to my "strengths".</p><p>I just recognize, along with other players, that the infamy system inhibits PvP. It's nothing new - it has for ages. But I think enough people are finally tired of it and would like to see a change.</p><p>People sill still refuse to fight, people will still run, people will still zerg, etc. There is a lot that can be improved with PvP, and some of us just think it's best to try to address one thing at a time, starting with those changes that could provide the most "bang for buck".</p><p>Eventually we might see some dev discussion on the matter, but until then there's nothing wrong with hashing out our opinions. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[SolomanShort]

Please do not run to protect your title, it means nothing! Nothing I say.Please stop and fight me, I just wanna pvp!Thanks for listening! P.S. (to the OP) A title = a title, no more, no less. If I go above Slayer, I sure make sure I lose it again in the vain hope that others will fight me and not run away.The current title system hurts my little brain!FIGHT ME !!/bonk

[Tarlok]

<p>I hear ya there, fight just to fight. my 23 dirge will take on any yellow, and maby even a low orange if I am feeling froggy.  I don't have a title could care less about KvD.  Will I run? Yes I will from a deep orange or a red, same with any druid, its not soo much about losing the fight as its an exercise in futility to attempt those kinds of fights solo.</p><p>Change the system so folks like me and the vast majority of pvp players that don't want to farm green con players all day every day can have a shot at maby some recognition for out efforts.  Its not overly important and is not a ...or I quit type to thing, but would be cool.</p><p>(edited for spelling)</p>

[Tybr]

<p>Me's?... I done lik tytels. </p><p>Mostle becaus Orges cant reed neways. </p><p>Jus funie leters flotin ova der heds.</p>

[Miroh]

  What I want to know is are they going to change people being able to be evac'ed once they are engaged by someone else.    Brought up here   <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=379175" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=379175</a>  Also brought it up on <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">www.eq2flames.com</a>

[DarkMasterMan]

<cite>Nosiop@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have a Master title <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=536039121" target="_blank">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=536039121</a> so its not like I couldn't get one with the current system.  I would have had WAY more fun with a no fame lose and fame decay system tho =P</blockquote>I too have a Master title, and getting it isn't the problem, it would be keeping it that would be the problem. You find dreads everywhere, but generals, wow, I think I saw one, that one time, in BS, in an x4...

[Miroh]

  I've solo'ed since I made this toon and never been above Dread lol, people don't solo for the most part higher up in titles sadly <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  So i get a few hits in Dread then I take alot of hits and lose it.

[k9quaint]

<cite>Xova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quaintadin@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The dumbing down of rewards isn't the answer. Tone down the ability to run.Diminishing returns on zone immunity & dock immunity. 30 seconds for evac. Give people a chance to run, and give people a chance to catch those who run. Right now, there isn't much worth fighting over *other* than titles. There needs to be more things to fight over, not less. People who want to take away the things that matter in PvP should go over to WoW where nothing matters. The PvP there is already a mindless faction & point grind full of bots and players who don't care whether they live or die. Stop trying to turn EQ2, where the score is kept, into little league where everyone gets a trophy just for showing up.</blockquote><p>Ok first - dispense with the hostility. There's no need for it.</p><p>Second, please stop with the "go to WoW" argument. It's tiresome, ineffective, and detracts from what could otherwise be a good argument on your part.</p><p>Finally, the point is not to "dumb down" the game nor is it to take away the rewards. The point is to remove a risk factor that is unfortunately hindering PvP in order to breathe new life into PvP while we wait for more substantial changes to (hopefully) come in the next year. The idea that was proposed, and what I *think* this thread is in response to, is the idea of fame decay - where fame is lost not through death but from a failure to PvP, and the rewards are made exponentially harder to attain. Title gain remains the same. Title loss does not.</p><p>A lot of the people arguing in favor of changing the title system are people who have already got the high titles. I have a lvl54 Defiler with a scant 39 AA's who has a General title and I've had that title since the day EoF went live. I don't exactly play on easymode and I've been pretty fine playing a game that has never played to my "strengths".</p><p>I just recognize, along with other players, that the infamy system inhibits PvP. It's nothing new - it has for ages. But I think enough people are finally tired of it and would like to see a change.</p><p>People sill still refuse to fight, people will still run, people will still zerg, etc. There is a lot that can be improved with PvP, and some of us just think it's best to try to address one thing at a time, starting with those changes that could provide the most "bang for buck".</p><p>Eventually we might see some dev discussion on the matter, but until then there's nothing wrong with hashing out our opinions. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></p></blockquote>Regarding my hostility: I am a disciple of Innoruuk, get used to the hate <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Changing the title system is one thing. Tweaking it is one thing. Removing fame loss is like removing death in PvE: you have zero hitpoints, just pretend you died and leash the mob! The "go to WoW argument" is actually the most compelling. WoW already implemented EXACTLY what you propose. Lose nothing for dying. The pvp is terrible because nobody has anything to lose, only to gain. The only thing that differs is the rate of gain, and people are happier to grind for 3 hrs doing very little in pvp instead of playing hard for 1 hour and gaining a little more. Substituting time for effort is always bad, I don't care how many titles you have.When you say "inhibits pvp", what you actually mean is it inhibits what you want, which is people to stand and fight you like in an arena. Refusing to fight is an artifact of the myriad ways to be safe out in the world, not the titles. If you could only be immune on the docks for 1 minute, you wouldn't see people standing around "refusing to pvp" or "title hugging" because they would be attackable. Same with evacing, only give them a minute, and they won't stand there waiting for their timers for too long.The infamy tracks PvP, not inhibits it. It would be like saying that keeping score in football inhibits people scoring touchdowns. The alternative is always going for it on 4th down, because really, who cares if nobody is keeping score right? Why punt? In fact, why play conservative at all, I have nothing to lose. Just keep rolling the dice, it might come up 7 eventually. Sure, fans of scoring might not like the brand of football that a defensive team plays, but that is the nature of the game.Many people also complain about cliff-diving and other methods of avoiding fame loss. The problem is not with the title making them jump, the problem is they are able to circumvent the transfer of infamy in one direction. If every time someone jumped off a cliff, fame was awarded exactly as if they had died at the top, you wouldn't see anyone complaining about cliff diving for two reasons:a.) nobody would have missing out on infamy/loot.b.) nobody would be jumping because it would be pointless to do so.If you toned down the safe-holds like the docks, evac/rez points, & zone lines, you would still have people running, but you would also have people catching the runners. I would much rather have the Overseer lead me on a 13 zone chase and get away, than just stand there and spam /shrug while our group kills him/her because there is no point to avoiding death. Oh sure, technically we are PvPing him, but is it really? I am casting spells and CA's while he is casting emotes and jumping up and down...The arguments about "bravery" and "cowardice" hold no water either. The penalties for failure in this game are so mild while the rewards for doing are so much greater, there really is no disincentive to play. You won't see Titles who stay in Freeport forever crafting because they feel afraid to go out. They may stay there for a few minutes or a few hours, but that is a tactical decision, not one rooted in fear. Nor is a headlong charge into a flock of enemies brave, it is just not conservative. Sony will always reward doing more than not-doing, because they are making a game, not a sim of life. This forever skews the balance of actions in favor of being "brave". There is nothing in the game that once lost, cannot be regained. We are all immortal. If this was a permanent death game, like Diablo 2 on Hardcore mode for instance, then you can talk about fear. If I lost EVERYTHING for dying in PvP, I would be afraid of engaging an enemy.

[kreepr]

<cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demron wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not even sure why we're arguing about it at this point, because the system IS going to change. It's not working as they intended it.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">That's what we are debating how it should change or </span><span style="color: #66cc00;">rather implement something that will help fix the real problem.....</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Who's arguing??????</span></p></blockquote><p>The title of the thread is; "no, please do not change the current title system". Not, how should we change or fix the problems that revolve around the current title system.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">OK if you would bother to either read or retain what you have read that I post I have offered changes not to the title system but to things that will help to provide more PVP.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">OH and your changes IMO all suck and should NEVER be implemented. If I remember right that about how these where accepted the last time you presented them.With the exception to the Tokens dropping and being used to buy PVP armor sets at all levels. One diamond in all your rough.</span></p></blockquote>I have yet to see you offer any changes, or solutions, but you're good at telling others their solutions suck without giving reasons why. Keep trolling.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">AAAWW Did I hurt your little feelings?? Maybe you should read the whole thread instead of just jumping in the middle of the frey then and think you know what your talking about. I have offered and agreed with a few changes to make PVP better not change the title system. LOL maybe you should take your own advise and give up the trolling............. Or just go back to farming your greens and grays at level 70 KK <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">EDIT - copyed and pasted VVV For Demrons reading enjoyment.................. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Read the thread and you will see its not my only defence, just a response to your crying about class balance. On the contrary I have seen and know many other classes with higher titles that solo a good amount of time.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Example- My Warden hunter title cause where I am a decent warden and solo alot with him by far not the best.Guildie of mine has a warden that he is, well extremely good he's a dreadnaught. He solos alot and groups as well. Do I cry cause he has a better title?? No.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Changing the title system is not the answer the same people you are complaining about with there titles WILL find something else to  "hug" and pvp will continue on as is. I still say changing the system wont fix the problem. People don't want to lose period. They will start to protect there K/D ratios or kill streaks. Maybe even hide in town now to prevent token drops who knows but they will find something to replace the title. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Give people a reason to PVP-- Writs,bountys,tournaments.betting what ever.Funny when I was grinding AA I found the Black market quest in EFP had never done it didn't know whether you got AA for it or not so I grabbed it and did it. Man was I amazed when I got an update for killing a Q and boy did I get a kick outta that I loved it. Would love alot more of that kinda stuff.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">For the ones that think titles are worthless now just wait they will be completely and totally worthless after if this is how they fix the problem. No loss, log on raid up and kill getting a title that way is easy. Now with no loss they just log in and kill a few people to maintain so there is no risk of losing as long as you fight a few fights. There will be so many variables to this if you truly want it balanced. Low decay rate to keep it fair for people that do other thing besides just PVP.- easily taken advantage of - What about lower pop severs you have to make it fair for them, so even slower decay and the titles them selves, Will I have to find and hit people within my title range or does PVP alone help to prevent decay?? Cause at some point someone could end up losing a title cause they cant find someone with a title that's equal to theres. I know there are times I go out and we run around and I have lots of kills but not one infamy hit. I still spent the night PVPing, so would I have to b worried about my decay just cause of that yet I was actively PVPing??  No Infamy loss if you die. I loved to hit people in my title range in hopes that my hit would strip there title, takes the fun outta that, boring. </span></p>

[Amphibia]

<cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Give people a reason to PVP-- Writs,bountys,tournaments.betting what ever.Funny when I was grinding AA I found the Black market quest in EFP had never done it didn't know whether you got AA for it or not so I grabbed it and did it. Man was I amazed when I got an update for killing a Q and boy did I get a kick outta that I loved it. Would love alot more of that kinda stuff.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">For the ones that think titles are worthless now just wait they will be completely and totally worthless after if this is how they fix the problem. No loss, log on raid up and kill getting a title that way is easy. Now with no loss they just log in and kill a few people to maintain so there is no risk of losing as long as you fight a few fights. There will be so many variables to this if you truly want it balanced. Low decay rate to keep it fair for people that do other thing besides just PVP.- easily taken advantage of - </span></p></blockquote>I'd love to see titles just removed all together. They hinder PvP more than they encourage it, but if taking them away is not an option, then I think the decay suggestion is a good idea. Or make them something you can purchase for tokens, just like the PvP gear. I do not care the least if titles become worthless. They're a pain in the ****, and the system is totally unfair to a lot of classes right now. I don't think we need titles at all, great PvP'ers are known by name anyways. PS: Love your ideas for writs and bounties. And I agree we need more reasons to PvP, I just think it is important that they don't punish people too harshly... because if they do, all we will ever see in this game is cheap tricks, endless running and a crap ton of people just hangin' out in Haven, Qeynos Harbor and East Freeport because they don't wanna go out and risk their title.

[Armironhead]

<cite>Niryan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Give people a reason to PVP-- Writs,bountys,tournaments.betting what ever.Funny when I was grinding AA I found the Black market quest in EFP had never done it didn't know whether you got AA for it or not so I grabbed it and did it. Man was I amazed when I got an update for killing a Q and boy did I get a kick outta that I loved it. Would love alot more of that kinda stuff.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">For the ones that think titles are worthless now just wait they will be completely and totally worthless after if this is how they fix the problem. No loss, log on raid up and kill getting a title that way is easy. Now with no loss they just log in and kill a few people to maintain so there is no risk of losing as long as you fight a few fights. There will be so many variables to this if you truly want it balanced. Low decay rate to keep it fair for people that do other thing besides just PVP.- easily taken advantage of - </span></p></blockquote>I'd love to see titles just removed all together. They hinder PvP more than they encourage it, but if taking them away is not an option, then I think the decay suggestion is a good idea. Or make them something you can purchase for tokens, just like the PvP gear. I do not care the least if titles become worthless. They're a pain in the ****, and the system is totally unfair to a lot of classes right now. I don't think we need titles at all, great PvP'ers are known by name anyways. PS: Love your ideas for writs and bounties. And I agree we need more reasons to PvP, I just think it is important that they don't punish people too harshly... because if they do, all we will ever see in this game is cheap tricks, endless running and a crap ton of people just hangin' out in Haven, Qeynos Harbor and East Freeport because they don't wanna go out and risk their title. </blockquote>At this point I think that there is universal agreement that pvp writs and quests are a good idea.  I also like making the named guards drop quality chests to opposing factions (thereby giving opposing toons reason to hunt in enemy cities).  But there is no sign that SOE is even considering such changes.  Well at least there is Age of Conan coming out soon.

[k9quaint]

More reasons to PvP would be good. Perhaps "borrowing" the relic system from DAOC and conferring a bonus upon the realm that kills epic guards inside of the other cities. Something to tide us over until Warhammer <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[kreepr]

<cite>Niryan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Give people a reason to PVP-- Writs,bountys,tournaments.betting what ever.Funny when I was grinding AA I found the Black market quest in EFP had never done it didn't know whether you got AA for it or not so I grabbed it and did it. Man was I amazed when I got an update for killing a Q and boy did I get a kick outta that I loved it. Would love alot more of that kinda stuff.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">For the ones that think titles are worthless now just wait they will be completely and totally worthless after if this is how they fix the problem. No loss, log on raid up and kill getting a title that way is easy. Now with no loss they just log in and kill a few people to maintain so there is no risk of losing as long as you fight a few fights. There will be so many variables to this if you truly want it balanced. Low decay rate to keep it fair for people that do other thing besides just PVP.- easily taken advantage of - </span></p></blockquote>I'd love to see titles just removed all together. They hinder PvP more than they encourage it, but if taking them away is not an option, then I think the decay suggestion is a good idea. Or make them something you can purchase for tokens, just like the PvP gear. I do not care the least if titles become worthless. They're a pain in the ****, and the system is totally unfair to a lot of classes right now. I don't think we need titles at all, great PvP'ers are known by name anyways. PS: Love your ideas for writs and bounties. And I agree we need more reasons to PvP, I just think it is important that they don't punish people too harshly... because if they do, all we will ever see in this game is cheap tricks, endless running and a crap ton of people just hangin' out in Haven, Qeynos Harbor and East Freeport because they don't wanna go out and risk their title. </blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I would hate to see titles removed. They have already removed any risk involved with PVP, remove infamy loss and it's just mindless pvp grinding. That's no fun. Like I said in another post I love when I hit someone and I see them at there Rez spot or they come back after me and there title is no lower then when I fought them LOL I love that I took there title. Now there all bent outta shape and they wanna keep fighting. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">From the people I talk to in game and out I see about 10/4 don't like titles or could care less. These forums are deceiving cause you do get the true numbers of people that like titles as opposed to ones that don't. I get and under stand your stance on not liking titles but that does not mean they have to take it away form the people that do like it and like the risk it causes or the feeling of stripping someones title. Titles IMO are not worthless and do hold some weight with me. Yes there are some people that have titles that I feel got them threw chap tactics but there are alot of people that got them how they where intended to get them. When I see a group with high titles I think nice good PVP group or a solo I think hum this will be a good fight.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">AS far as the writs and stuff yeah thanks lol but there not my original ideas mostly Boz and someone else cant remember who that presented the bounty and that one I really love, bounty's would be a blast. LOL i would love to see posters with the picture of a certain handsome smooth scaled Iksar with the words Reward- Wanted dead or alive (but mostly dead) LOL would be a blast. </span></p>

[kreepr]

<cite>Armironhead@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niryan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Give people a reason to PVP-- Writs,bountys,tournaments.betting what ever.Funny when I was grinding AA I found the Black market quest in EFP had never done it didn't know whether you got AA for it or not so I grabbed it and did it. Man was I amazed when I got an update for killing a Q and boy did I get a kick outta that I loved it. Would love alot more of that kinda stuff.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">For the ones that think titles are worthless now just wait they will be completely and totally worthless after if this is how they fix the problem. No loss, log on raid up and kill getting a title that way is easy. Now with no loss they just log in and kill a few people to maintain so there is no risk of losing as long as you fight a few fights. There will be so many variables to this if you truly want it balanced. Low decay rate to keep it fair for people that do other thing besides just PVP.- easily taken advantage of - </span></p></blockquote>I'd love to see titles just removed all together. They hinder PvP more than they encourage it, but if taking them away is not an option, then I think the decay suggestion is a good idea. Or make them something you can purchase for tokens, just like the PvP gear. I do not care the least if titles become worthless. They're a pain in the ****, and the system is totally unfair to a lot of classes right now. I don't think we need titles at all, great PvP'ers are known by name anyways. PS: Love your ideas for writs and bounties. And I agree we need more reasons to PvP, I just think it is important that they don't punish people too harshly... because if they do, all we will ever see in this game is cheap tricks, endless running and a crap ton of people just hangin' out in Haven, Qeynos Harbor and East Freeport because they don't wanna go out and risk their title. </blockquote>At this point I think that there is universal agreement that pvp writs and quests are a good idea.  I also like making the named guards drop quality chests to opposing factions (thereby giving opposing toons reason to hunt in enemy cities).  But there is no sign that SOE is even considering such changes.  Well at least there is Age of Conan coming out soon.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I guess I will see what happens with PVP after this. Not that I am planning on leaving but whether I waist my time giving my input on what I feel would help the game or not. I am starting to take notice and maybe realise that the things like Writs, PVP quests, bounty's things like that may never be seen. This is not a pvp based game. Its based on PVE and there does not seem to be much focused on anything but the PVP its self. I say this loosely- all that seems to be happening is they wanna fix the balance of PVP not work to get groups together or make people wanna go out and fight at all cost. Some of us do others don't. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Guess we will find out though.......................</span></p>

[Armironhead]

<cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niryan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Give people a reason to PVP-- Writs,bountys,tournaments.betting what ever.Funny when I was grinding AA I found the Black market quest in EFP had never done it didn't know whether you got AA for it or not so I grabbed it and did it. Man was I amazed when I got an update for killing a Q and boy did I get a kick outta that I loved it. Would love alot more of that kinda stuff.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">For the ones that think titles are worthless now just wait they will be completely and totally worthless after if this is how they fix the problem. No loss, log on raid up and kill getting a title that way is easy. Now with no loss they just log in and kill a few people to maintain so there is no risk of losing as long as you fight a few fights. There will be so many variables to this if you truly want it balanced. Low decay rate to keep it fair for people that do other thing besides just PVP.- easily taken advantage of - </span></p></blockquote>I'd love to see titles just removed all together. They hinder PvP more than they encourage it, but if taking them away is not an option, then I think the decay suggestion is a good idea. Or make them something you can purchase for tokens, just like the PvP gear. I do not care the least if titles become worthless. They're a pain in the ****, and the system is totally unfair to a lot of classes right now. I don't think we need titles at all, great PvP'ers are known by name anyways. PS: Love your ideas for writs and bounties. And I agree we need more reasons to PvP, I just think it is important that they don't punish people too harshly... because if they do, all we will ever see in this game is cheap tricks, endless running and a crap ton of people just hangin' out in Haven, Qeynos Harbor and East Freeport because they don't wanna go out and risk their title. </blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I would hate to see titles removed. They have already removed any risk involved with PVP, remove infamy loss and it's just mindless pvp grinding. That's no fun. Like I said in another post I love when I hit someone and I see them at there Rez spot or they come back after me and there title is no lower then when I fought them LOL I love that I took there title. Now there all bent outta shape and they wanna keep fighting. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">From the people I talk to in game and out I see about 10/4 don't like titles or could care less. These forums are deceiving cause you do get the true numbers of people that like titles as opposed to ones that don't. I get and under stand your stance on not liking titles but that does not mean they have to take it away form the people that do like it and like the risk it causes or the feeling of stripping someones title. Titles IMO are not worthless and do hold some weight with me. Yes there are some people that have titles that I feel got them threw chap tactics but there are alot of people that got them how they where intended to get them. When I see a group with high titles I think nice good PVP group or a solo I think hum this will be a good fight.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">AS far as the writs and stuff yeah thanks lol but there not my original ideas mostly Boz and someone else cant remember who that presented the bounty and that one I really love, bounty's would be a blast. LOL i would love to see posters with the picture of a certain handsome smooth scaled Iksar with the words Reward- Wanted dead or alive (but mostly dead) LOL would be a blast. </span></p></blockquote>I remember in Diablo and D2 people use to have informal bounties collect the ear of the bounty and bring it to the person requesting it.  It was fun but kinda pointless in the context of Diablo.  Now, here they really could do something with it.  I always thought that at the very minimum on the evil side their should be a theives guild where you could take out assisnation requests against other parties -- without regard to faction -- and then other players could fill the bounties for various rewards depending on the lvl of the target.  At least assassins as a class should be able to fulfill contracts against other players.

[Armironhead]

<cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Armironhead@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niryan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Give people a reason to PVP-- Writs,bountys,tournaments.betting what ever.Funny when I was grinding AA I found the Black market quest in EFP had never done it didn't know whether you got AA for it or not so I grabbed it and did it. Man was I amazed when I got an update for killing a Q and boy did I get a kick outta that I loved it. Would love alot more of that kinda stuff.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">For the ones that think titles are worthless now just wait they will be completely and totally worthless after if this is how they fix the problem. No loss, log on raid up and kill getting a title that way is easy. Now with no loss they just log in and kill a few people to maintain so there is no risk of losing as long as you fight a few fights. There will be so many variables to this if you truly want it balanced. Low decay rate to keep it fair for people that do other thing besides just PVP.- easily taken advantage of - </span></p></blockquote>I'd love to see titles just removed all together. They hinder PvP more than they encourage it, but if taking them away is not an option, then I think the decay suggestion is a good idea. Or make them something you can purchase for tokens, just like the PvP gear. I do not care the least if titles become worthless. They're a pain in the ****, and the system is totally unfair to a lot of classes right now. I don't think we need titles at all, great PvP'ers are known by name anyways. PS: Love your ideas for writs and bounties. And I agree we need more reasons to PvP, I just think it is important that they don't punish people too harshly... because if they do, all we will ever see in this game is cheap tricks, endless running and a crap ton of people just hangin' out in Haven, Qeynos Harbor and East Freeport because they don't wanna go out and risk their title. </blockquote>At this point I think that there is universal agreement that pvp writs and quests are a good idea.  I also like making the named guards drop quality chests to opposing factions (thereby giving opposing toons reason to hunt in enemy cities).  But there is no sign that SOE is even considering such changes.  Well at least there is Age of Conan coming out soon.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I guess I will see what happens with PVP after this. Not that I am planning on leaving but whether I waist my time giving my input on what I feel would help the game or not. I am starting to take notice and maybe realise that the things like Writs, PVP quests, bounty's things like that may never be seen. This is not a pvp based game. Its based on PVE and there does not seem to be much focused on anything but the PVP its self. I say this loosely- all that seems to be happening is they wanna fix the balance of PVP not work to get groups together or make people wanna go out and fight at all cost. Some of us do others don't. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Guess we will find out though.......................</span></p></blockquote>To me it seems that SOE is too focused on the "rules" to be concerned with the actual development of pvp as an alternative play style.  They would rather whipsaw people with nerfs and rule set changes then provide people with content -- quests, writs, battlekeeps, etc.   I dont know why.  It seems that noone likes a nerf, and yet that is their first thought to any problem.

[Norrsken]

<cite>Armironhead@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Armironhead@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niryan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Give people a reason to PVP-- Writs,bountys,tournaments.betting what ever.Funny when I was grinding AA I found the Black market quest in EFP had never done it didn't know whether you got AA for it or not so I grabbed it and did it. Man was I amazed when I got an update for killing a Q and boy did I get a kick outta that I loved it. Would love alot more of that kinda stuff.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">For the ones that think titles are worthless now just wait they will be completely and totally worthless after if this is how they fix the problem. No loss, log on raid up and kill getting a title that way is easy. Now with no loss they just log in and kill a few people to maintain so there is no risk of losing as long as you fight a few fights. There will be so many variables to this if you truly want it balanced. Low decay rate to keep it fair for people that do other thing besides just PVP.- easily taken advantage of - </span></p></blockquote>I'd love to see titles just removed all together. They hinder PvP more than they encourage it, but if taking them away is not an option, then I think the decay suggestion is a good idea. Or make them something you can purchase for tokens, just like the PvP gear. I do not care the least if titles become worthless. They're a pain in the ****, and the system is totally unfair to a lot of classes right now. I don't think we need titles at all, great PvP'ers are known by name anyways. PS: Love your ideas for writs and bounties. And I agree we need more reasons to PvP, I just think it is important that they don't punish people too harshly... because if they do, all we will ever see in this game is cheap tricks, endless running and a crap ton of people just hangin' out in Haven, Qeynos Harbor and East Freeport because they don't wanna go out and risk their title. </blockquote>At this point I think that there is universal agreement that pvp writs and quests are a good idea.  I also like making the named guards drop quality chests to opposing factions (thereby giving opposing toons reason to hunt in enemy cities).  But there is no sign that SOE is even considering such changes.  Well at least there is Age of Conan coming out soon.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I guess I will see what happens with PVP after this. Not that I am planning on leaving but whether I waist my time giving my input on what I feel would help the game or not. I am starting to take notice and maybe realise that the things like Writs, PVP quests, bounty's things like that may never be seen. This is not a pvp based game. Its based on PVE and there does not seem to be much focused on anything but the PVP its self. I say this loosely- all that seems to be happening is they wanna fix the balance of PVP not work to get groups together or make people wanna go out and fight at all cost. Some of us do others don't. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Guess we will find out though.......................</span></p></blockquote>To me it seems that SOE is too focused on the "rules" to be concerned with the actual development of pvp as an alternative play style.  They would rather whipsaw people with nerfs and rule set changes then provide people with content -- quests, writs, battlekeeps, etc.   I dont know why.  It seems that noone likes a nerf, and yet that is their first thought to any problem.</blockquote>Probably because nerf cries are what seems tp be popping up all over the place on the forums. Not many posts about pvp writs, keeps and what not live for long. And they are few and far between to begin with.

[Armironhead]

<cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Armironhead@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Armironhead@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Niryan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kreepr13 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Give people a reason to PVP-- Writs,bountys,tournaments.betting what ever.Funny when I was grinding AA I found the Black market quest in EFP had never done it didn't know whether you got AA for it or not so I grabbed it and did it. Man was I amazed when I got an update for killing a Q and boy did I get a kick outta that I loved it. Would love alot more of that kinda stuff.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">For the ones that think titles are worthless now just wait they will be completely and totally worthless after if this is how they fix the problem. No loss, log on raid up and kill getting a title that way is easy. Now with no loss they just log in and kill a few people to maintain so there is no risk of losing as long as you fight a few fights. There will be so many variables to this if you truly want it balanced. Low decay rate to keep it fair for people that do other thing besides just PVP.- easily taken advantage of - </span></p></blockquote>I'd love to see titles just removed all together. They hinder PvP more than they encourage it, but if taking them away is not an option, then I think the decay suggestion is a good idea. Or make them something you can purchase for tokens, just like the PvP gear. I do not care the least if titles become worthless. They're a pain in the ****, and the system is totally unfair to a lot of classes right now. I don't think we need titles at all, great PvP'ers are known by name anyways. PS: Love your ideas for writs and bounties. And I agree we need more reasons to PvP, I just think it is important that they don't punish people too harshly... because if they do, all we will ever see in this game is cheap tricks, endless running and a crap ton of people just hangin' out in Haven, Qeynos Harbor and East Freeport because they don't wanna go out and risk their title. </blockquote>At this point I think that there is universal agreement that pvp writs and quests are a good idea.  I also like making the named guards drop quality chests to opposing factions (thereby giving opposing toons reason to hunt in enemy cities).  But there is no sign that SOE is even considering such changes.  Well at least there is Age of Conan coming out soon.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I guess I will see what happens with PVP after this. Not that I am planning on leaving but whether I waist my time giving my input on what I feel would help the game or not. I am starting to take notice and maybe realise that the things like Writs, PVP quests, bounty's things like that may never be seen. This is not a pvp based game. Its based on PVE and there does not seem to be much focused on anything but the PVP its self. I say this loosely- all that seems to be happening is they wanna fix the balance of PVP not work to get groups together or make people wanna go out and fight at all cost. Some of us do others don't. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Guess we will find out though.......................</span></p></blockquote>To me it seems that SOE is too focused on the "rules" to be concerned with the actual development of pvp as an alternative play style.  They would rather whipsaw people with nerfs and rule set changes then provide people with content -- quests, writs, battlekeeps, etc.   I dont know why.  It seems that noone likes a nerf, and yet that is their first thought to any problem.</blockquote>Probably because nerf cries are what seems tp be popping up all over the place on the forums. Not many posts about pvp writs, keeps and what not live for long. And they are few and far between to begin with.</blockquote>True enough.  Its probably because a thread lives by controversy.  Writs, etc, generate agreement and are therefore thread killers.

[Ridyen]

<p>Well I believe that there is something wrong with the current title system but I don't believe it is the primary cause for people running.  </p><ul><li>When I run it is usually run because I'm outnumbered two or three or more to one.  Two even cons or higher to me mean certain death so why stand and fight?  I know that some classes if played smart can still win with those odds but most cannot.  The same is true if I am attacked by three lower levels if one is a healer.</li></ul><ul><li>Of course another reason to run is that the level of the player trying to kill you can be as much as 10 level higher than you.  This is one thing about EQII that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  Except for a couple of classes I don't know of too many folks that can take on a player ten levels above them and win most of the time.  There are exceptions but on average taking on character 10 levels above you will get you killed.  I personally think that the range that people can attack you is simply too wide.  It encourges ganking for faction and titles.  Narrowing this gap would have fewer people running if they thought they actually had a chance to win. </li></ul><ul><li>There are other reasons to run as well including protecting your title or the 20 gold you are carrying or you are simply trying to get from point A to point B to meet up your friends or to prevent zerging or move away from a zone-in .... </li></ul><p>As I said above I do believe that there is something wrong with the current title system.  I think it should be changed so that it should give you more infamy if the player you kill is a higher level than you.  It should also be changed to so that a Hunter that kills a Champ or Dread, or Master gets an increasing amount of infamay the higher the title of the opposing player.  It makes no sense to me that a Hunter gets no infamy for killing a Champion or higher today.  Of course you would have to take into account a higher level Hunter hitting a Champion that is "x" levels under them.     </p>

[kreepr]

<cite>Armironhead@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Armironhead@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote>To me it seems that SOE is too focused on the "rules" to be concerned with the actual development of pvp as an alternative play style.  They would rather whipsaw people with nerfs and rule set changes then provide people with content -- quests, writs, battlekeeps, etc.   I dont know why.  It seems that noone likes a nerf, and yet that is their first thought to any problem.</blockquote>Probably because nerf cries are what seems tp be popping up all over the place on the forums. Not many posts about pvp writs, keeps and what not live for long. And they are few and far between to begin with.</blockquote>True enough.  Its probably because a thread lives by controversy.  Writs, etc, generate agreement and are therefore thread killers.</blockquote><span style="color: #ff0000;">That's what has baffled me since I started to play this game. People crying about getting nerfed but turn on a dime and cry to have something nerfed. Notice I do say NERFED not fixing things that are broke or bugs in the game cause those are different. When people don't like something they think its broke or needs fixed. If they went game and server wide and did a poll I have a feeling that for every 1 vote against infamy there would be 2 for it. <------( Just my feeling on it no real numbers to back that up).</span>