The DW change on test server is horrible

[Couching]

I have tested it on test server. Please check this thread. <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=377726" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=377726</a> I am really tired of the nonstop nerf of brawler in this game.

[EQ2Luv]

I thought only the offhand weapon was supposed to be slowed by 1.33 factor.  To slow both of them is ridiculously horrid, especially without modifying proc rates accordingly. Only positive I see is that it will be easier to get weapons with syncced up delays.  Not that it makes up for the loss of 15% dps.

[Cornbread Muffin]

<p>Originally it was explained as though the off-hand weapon was going to be slowed by some unknown amount and the main weapon would remain the same. Then it became a 33% boost to damage and a 33% boost in delay, which mathematically compensates. I also think it makes life easier because you can still get 2 of the same delay weapons so your autoattacks continue to go off at the same time.</p><p>The proc thing is something they will need to change. I think it is an unintended consequence of how they have procs set up to only feed off the base weapon delay. They need to slip in a check to change the "base" weapon delay for that calculation according to the DW change.</p><p>As for Monk/Bruiser weapons being terrible compared to everyone else's weapons - well, we've known that for a long time. Hell, one of the first things that was mentioned when news of the DW change came out was "hooray, now we can use all the fighter 1h weapons that are way better than crappy brawler ones!". Maybe now that it is extra obvious other folks (the devs, perhaps?) will take note.</p>

[EQ2Luv]

Cornbread Muffin wrote: <blockquote><p>Originally it was explained as though the off-hand weapon was going to be slowed by some unknown amount and the main weapon would remain the same. Then it became a 33% boost to damage and a 33% boost in delay, which mathematically compensates. I also think it makes life easier because you can still get 2 of the same delay weapons so your autoattacks continue to go off at the same time.</p><p>The proc thing is something they will need to change. I think it is an unintended consequence of how they have procs set up to only feed off the base weapon delay. They need to slip in a check to change the "base" weapon delay for that calculation according to the DW change.</p><p>As for Monk/Bruiser weapons being terrible compared to everyone else's weapons - well, we've known that for a long time. Hell, one of the first things that was mentioned when news of the DW change came out was "hooray, now we can use all the fighter 1h weapons that are way better than crappy brawler ones!". Maybe now that it is extra obvious other folks (the devs, perhaps?) will take note.</p></blockquote>Would be nice if they added a fix for the +X dmg adornments too, seeing as we'll be hitting less often and thus getting less +dmg.

[Couching]

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote>I thought only the offhand weapon was supposed to be slowed by 1.33 factor.  To slow both of them is ridiculously horrid, especially without modifying proc rates accordingly. Only positive I see is that it will be easier to get weapons with syncced up delays.  Not that it makes up for the loss of 15% dps. </blockquote>If you have 2.5 delay weapon already, with 1.33 times on delay, it becomes 3.3 delay. It's really bad for brawler since with max haste, the weapon delay is 1.5 sec. What does it mean comparing to 1.1 delay now? It means we can't spam CA anymore. The casting speed of monk CAs are mostly 0.5 sec. With 0.5 sec recovery, it takes 1 sec to cast a CA. That's why 2.5 delay weapon is perfect for monk if you can time your CA wisely. Now, with 3.3 delay, we have to wait extra 0.5 sec for every CA. It really sucks. Another reason for raiding monk to ignore agi line. The recovery reduction is useless if you have 2.5 delay weapons.

[Cornbread Muffin]

<p>1.8 will be the new 2.5 for Monks.</p>

[EQ2Luv]

Cornbread Muffin wrote: <blockquote><p>1.8 will be the new 2.5 for Monks.</p></blockquote> 1.8 is tough to find.... =\  Grats to SoE though for making the soulfire kama even less appealing.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

They just need to make it so autoattack goes off separate from casting CA's. That would eliminate any problems with not getting benefit from haste, etc.

[PrimusPilus]

<p>There may be a simple reason for a drop in dps, autoattacks may be being interrupted by CAs due to changes to both.</p><p>Example, two 1.6 base speed weapons dual weilded now have speed 2.1, hasted by 104% are now 1.0.</p><p>Meanwhile, CAs are now hasted from the old 0.5+0.5=1.0 to 0.44+0.44=0.88 (assumes no server lag which actually may add 0.1 for a total of  1.1/0.98).</p><p>The second number is now smaller than the first one, so if you spam CAs like you used to, you will now interrupt at least some autoattacks.</p><p>The one thing that is certain from all these changes, it will take a bit more skill to not interrupt autoattacks, especially for the 2.5 speed crowd, not to mention the new 3.5 speed ones. </p><p>Two handed weapons now seem to be doing more damage btw, as the Devs said they would.</p>

[Nokrahs]

this is frustrating since I finally felt somehow happy with my Kama/FistofBashing (2.5) weapons for the DD set. I would actually use a 2 Hander to get more max dmg but there ain't exactly many T7+ Bo-Type Weapons I can think off (Unrest 2HB is my one and only at the moment). besides Kama/FistofBashing for DD I use the Marr's+FistofPain Combo for Tanking and that's all about at this point. any changes for the stats of my DW's or weapon suggestions for the time after next GU? at the Moment I won't get into zones such as Emerald Halls or Mistmore Inner Sanctum to get weapons there. with every melee class going to DW is it possible for a monk to use swords 1h/2h or is the limitation to crushing still there? there are some interesting swords out there (at least more swords than DW-Crushing weapons) and martial artists use swords as a weapon either.

[BChizzle]

It might just be a short term impact assuming the attack speed cap goes up with RoK

[Couching]

Really? Do you know the new attack speed cap in RoK?  Please let us know, thank you.

[Timaarit]

The only way the cap will go up is that maximum haste is 125% and then only haste modifier cap will go up so that you need like 300 haste to get the 125%. There is no way devs will actually do an improvement for something that is monk specific. If you look at their history on meddling with monk, the improvements have always been accidents which have been 'fixed' asap by much bigger nerfs. Any weapons brawlers get, scouts and other fighters get as better versions. Any good skills they accidentally give brawlers, other fighters will get as AA's a bit later.

[BChizzle]

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only way the cap will go up is that maximum haste is 125% and then only haste modifier cap will go up so that you need like 300 haste to get the 125%. There is no way devs will actually do an improvement for something that is monk specific. If you look at their history on meddling with monk, the improvements have always been accidents which have been 'fixed' asap by much bigger nerfs. Any weapons brawlers get, scouts and other fighters get as better versions. Any good skills they accidentally give brawlers, other fighters will get as AA's a bit later. </blockquote> You guys are being just silly now.  Haste already does go to 125% and a monk can get to what 123% solo?  We have 10 lvls to go up.  That means everything that is capped at 70 will now be going up.  1k str will be 1120 or something etc.  They will also need to adjust the diminishing returns curve towards the cap.  I could see a 150% haste cap or even better and then these delay changes will make perfect sense and usefulness for monks as our 2.5's will be back to where we have been.  It has already been pointed out our spells will all get an increase, can't you read between the lines and see that EB, SC and our offensive stance would probably get upgraded?  What is the point if caps aren't raised? I also would not be stunned to see stacking haste like they have done with dps to bring some help for the other classes. The only other solution to this issue would be for our CA's to be upped in dmg.

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only way the cap will go up is that maximum haste is 125% and then only haste modifier cap will go up so that you need like 300 haste to get the 125%. There is no way devs will actually do an improvement for something that is monk specific. If you look at their history on meddling with monk, the improvements have always been accidents which have been 'fixed' asap by much bigger nerfs. Any weapons brawlers get, scouts and other fighters get as better versions. Any good skills they accidentally give brawlers, other fighters will get as AA's a bit later. </blockquote> You guys are being just silly now.  Haste already does go to 125% and a monk can get to what 123% solo?  We have 10 lvls to go up.  That means everything that is capped at 70 will now be going up.  1k str will be 1120 or something etc.  They will also need to adjust the diminishing returns curve towards the cap.  I could see a 150% haste cap or even better and then these delay changes will make perfect sense and usefulness for monks as our 2.5's will be back to where we have been.  It has already been pointed out our spells will all get an increase, can't you read between the lines and see that EB, SC and our offensive stance would probably get upgraded?  What is the point if caps aren't raised? I also would not be stunned to see stacking haste like they have done with dps to bring some help for the other classes. The only other solution to this issue would be for our CA's to be upped in dmg. </blockquote>You're assuming the devs actually have monks in mind when they make upgrades for monk spells.  They apply a standard formula for how much an upgrade increases in value.  With spell consolidation coming, this might be different.  Regardless, the reason they made the cap so high was so that they could continue to have 'upgrades' in haste that dont amount to anything.  Our DPS will continue to fall compared to other classes.  We will continue to be unable to tank as well as plate tanks.  Giving us an overpowered raid wide buff was their fix to our class.  Now they can officially write us off and ignore posts with the word brawler or monk in them. 

[BChizzle]

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're assuming the devs actually have monks in mind when they make upgrades for monk spells.  They apply a standard formula for how much an upgrade increases in value.  With spell consolidation coming, this might be different.  Regardless, the reason they made the cap so high was so that they could continue to have 'upgrades' in haste that dont amount to anything.  Our DPS will continue to fall compared to other classes.  We will continue to be unable to tank as well as plate tanks.  Giving us an overpowered raid wide buff was their fix to our class.  Now they can officially write us off and ignore posts with the word brawler or monk in them.  </blockquote> I really do not get where this is whole we can't dps crap is coming from.  There is no tank class that can out parse me on a straight dps fight with optimal buffs, situational yeah like an ae fight a zerker might be close and well a brawler has the advantage of their 2 best dps weapons being much more available to them then ours but a good monk will be neck and neck with him.  I have seen the best bruisers in the game first hand.  I have no problems hitting the same dps lvl of an actual dpser like a brigand.  Yes we can't RAID tank as good as plates, that has been beaten to death already.  In group zones I don't see plates pulling 4k plus on fights in castle mistmoore like I do while tanking multiple encounters and it goes without saying due to our attack speed craneflock is better for monks than bruisers. Our main problem was usefulness in raids since we weren't as effective as plates tanking and replacable by a fill in your class dpser.  We have one of the best buffs in the game now. Forget this BS I am done arguing, any monk that wants to learn how to play their class PM me and we'll arrange some fun on the pvp test server before and after my raid times and I will show you how its done.  You will see that with a 1.6 delay you can still time your auto's, you will see the relic BP should be thrown out and you will come out of it a better player.

[Timaarit]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only way the cap will go up is that maximum haste is 125% and then only haste modifier cap will go up so that you need like 300 haste to get the 125%. There is no way devs will actually do an improvement for something that is monk specific. If you look at their history on meddling with monk, the improvements have always been accidents which have been 'fixed' asap by much bigger nerfs. Any weapons brawlers get, scouts and other fighters get as better versions. Any good skills they accidentally give brawlers, other fighters will get as AA's a bit later. </blockquote> You guys are being just silly now.  Haste already does go to 125% and a monk can get to what 123% solo?  We have 10 lvls to go up.  That means everything that is capped at 70 will now be going up.  1k str will be 1120 or something etc.  They will also need to adjust the diminishing returns curve towards the cap.  I could see a 150% haste cap or even better and then these delay changes will make perfect sense and usefulness for monks as our 2.5's will be back to where we have been.  It has already been pointed out our spells will all get an increase, can't you read between the lines and see that EB, SC and our offensive stance would probably get upgraded?  What is the point if caps aren't raised? I also would not be stunned to see stacking haste like they have done with dps to bring some help for the other classes. The only other solution to this issue would be for our CA's to be upped in dmg. </blockquote>No, we are being consistent. Lvl 60 haste cap was 100, and my monk was already there. With KoS, haste cap was still 100 and in raids I was at 100 even on defensive stance and without everburning flame. Only when scouts and other fighters started constantly hitting the cap, they increased it a bit so that they others would gain more benefit from it. In raids, my monk has been at the haste cap ever since I hit lvl 60. Also if you now consider the caps, lets do it with simple maths since I dont really want to get into the exact details. But lets take a CA that does 500-1000 damage when you have 500 str. Lets pretend that STR cap is 1000 and the CA would do 1000-2000 damage. Now when STR cap goes to 2000, the CA would do 500-1000 damage with 1000 STR and with 2000 STR, it would do 1000-2000 damage. That is how the caps currently work. So I can see haste modifier cap go up to 250 or maybe even 300. But haste %-cap will stay at 125%. You will just need 150 or so haste modifier to gain 100% haste instead of the ~100 mod currently. So it is you who is being silly for thinking they would actually raise the cap.

[Timaarit]

BChizzle wrote:<blockquote> Forget this BS I am done arguing, any monk that wants to learn how to play their class PM me and we'll arrange some fun on the pvp test server before and after my raid times and I will show you how its done.  You will see that with a 1.6 delay you can still time your auto's, you will see the relic BP should be thrown out and you will come out of it a better player. </blockquote>I'd say it would be you who would learn something.

[PantherXX]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>EQ2Luv wrote: I really do not get where this is whole we can't dps crap is coming from.  There is no tank class that can out parse me on a straight dps fight with optimal buffs, situational yeah like an ae fight a zerker might be close and well a brawler has the advantage of their 2 best dps weapons being much more available to them then ours but a good monk will be neck and neck with him.  I have seen the best bruisers in the game first hand.  I have no problems hitting the same dps lvl of an actual dpser like a brigand.  Yes we can't RAID tank as good as plates, that has been beaten to death already.  In group zones I don't see plates pulling 4k plus on fights in castle mistmoore like I do while tanking multiple encounters and it goes without saying due to our attack speed craneflock is better for monks than bruisers. Our main problem was usefulness in raids since we weren't as effective as plates tanking and replacable by a fill in your class dpser.  We have one of the best buffs in the game now. Forget this BS I am done arguing, any monk that wants to learn how to play their class PM me and we'll arrange some fun on the pvp test server before and after my raid times and I will show you how its done.  You will see that with a 1.6 delay you can still time your auto's, you will see the relic BP should be thrown out and you will come out of it a better player. </blockquote><p> Well ... I have seen zerkers blast out 4k+ on a single group in FTH, so I don't see any problem with them hitting that or more with multiple encounters in mistmoore ... and they can do a much better job of maintaining that DPS past the initial burst.  That 4k for a monk has to be with a short fight and craneflock up.  I would wager that is with tsunami riposting like mad as well.  You claim that plate tanks can only do such things situationally, but then give purely situational numbers.</p><p>I will grant you that we can do DPS in the right groups.  I can routinely do 1.4-1.5k in a so-so group, higher in fast fights (with Crane Flock), and a little better in the "perfect" group.  (My gear could stand some tweaking too, so I can see it getting a little better).  The problem is that "perfect" group is still better suited to melee scouts.  The recent chages are a step in the right direction, but ironically, the new spell haste (I think that is what you are refering to as the best buff?) actually tends to take us out of the good melee dps setup and put us into a caster group.  </p><p>As for PMing you ... well, I would rather have an open discussion on the boards to help out everyone.  If you have some great insights, step up and share them with us rather than just sharing your uber parse numbers.  Link us you profile so we can the the gear you use to get there.  I agree ... stop <i>arguing</i> and start <i><b>proving</b></i>.  Why is Linksteel better than Relic BP?  What is your magic formula for maximizing DPS while timing with 1.6 delay weapons and haste maxed out.  Back it up.  Frankly, standing next to you watching a parse will do nothing to educate me.</p><p>That said ... What I am curious to see is dual wielding SoD+Mayong's Hammer once the changes go in.  That with the Battlerager helm should actually give us 20% double attack.  Then we can talk about DPS!  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[BChizzle]

PantherXX wrote:<blockquote><p> Well ... I have seen zerkers blast out 4k+ on a single group in FTH, so I don't see any problem with them hitting that or more with multiple encounters in mistmoore ... and they can do a much better job of maintaining that DPS past the initial burst.  That 4k for a monk has to be with a short fight and craneflock up.  I would wager that is with tsunami riposting like mad as well.  You claim that plate tanks can only do such things situationally, but then give purely situational numbers.</p><p>I will grant you that we can do DPS in the right groups.  I can routinely do 1.4-1.5k in a so-so group, higher in fast fights (with Crane Flock), and a little better in the "perfect" group.  (My gear could stand some tweaking too, so I can see it getting a little better).  The problem is that "perfect" group is still better suited to melee scouts.  The recent chages are a step in the right direction, but ironically, the new spell haste (I think that is what you are refering to as the best buff?) actually tends to take us out of the good melee dps setup and put us into a caster group.  </p><p>As for PMing you ... well, I would rather have an open discussion on the boards to help out everyone.  If you have some great insights, step up and share them with us rather than just sharing your uber parse numbers.  Link us you profile so we can the the gear you use to get there.  I agree ... stop <i>arguing</i> and start <i><b>proving</b></i>.  Why is Linksteel better than Relic BP?  What is your magic formula for maximizing DPS while timing with 1.6 delay weapons and haste maxed out.  Back it up.  Frankly, standing next to you watching a parse will do nothing to educate me.</p><p>That said ... What I am curious to see is dual wielding SoD+Mayong's Hammer once the changes go in.  That with the Battlerager helm should actually give us 20% double attack.  Then we can talk about DPS!  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>I don't use 1.6 delay weapons.  I was talking about what the weapons on test were hasting down to.  I use 2.5 delay.  And as far as the zerker doing 4k well that is impressive if he wasn't tanking if he was tanking then it means little.

[Couching]

BChizzle wrote: <blockquote> I really do not get where this is whole we can't dps crap is coming from.  There is no tank class that can out parse me on a straight dps fight with optimal buffs, situational yeah like an ae fight a zerker might be close and well a brawler has the advantage of their 2 best dps weapons being much more available to them then ours but a good monk will be neck and neck with him.  I have seen the best bruisers in the game first hand.  I have no problems hitting the same dps lvl of an actual dpser like a brigand.  Yes we can't RAID tank as good as plates, that has been beaten to death already.  In group zones I don't see plates pulling 4k plus on fights in castle mistmoore like I do while tanking multiple encounters and it goes without saying due to our attack speed craneflock is better for monks than bruisers. Our main problem was usefulness in raids since we weren't as effective as plates tanking and replacable by a fill in your class dpser.  We have one of the best buffs in the game now. </blockquote>Brig deals more dps than you do with optimal buff since damages from brig CA is about 600-700 more than monks. If you have optimal buff and deal more dmg than brig without optimal buffs, you can't say you did actual dps like a brigand. It's easy for brig, assassin, ranger and swashy deal 3.1-3.3k with optimal buffs. Though, for monk, it's around 2.4-2.6k with optimal buffs. (PS: I am not talking about a short aoe fight)   It's really sad why people like to puff out? or make false statement? Unless monk CAs can deal same damages as brig, assassin, ranger and swashy, there is no way for monk to deal same damages as them if all have optimal buffs, same quality gears and all mastered in CAs. PS: The comparison is meaningless since brig, assassin, ranger and swashy will always get buffs first than brawler. It's impossible for everyone to get optimal buffs in raids. If yes, usually there is no point to invite a brawler since giving optimal buffs to real dps classes will deal more damages. In other word, in real world, usually monk has less buff than real dps classes. The dps gap is even larger. Usually, monk dps is around 1.2k-1.6k and real dps classes dps is around 2.5k-3k.

[Timaarit]

Ok, BChizzle, why dont you post your soloing average DPS parse against any lvl 60 triple up mobs. You can easily do that with raid DPS gear and offensive stance.

[BChizzle]

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, BChizzle, why dont you post your soloing average DPS parse against any lvl 60 triple up mobs. You can easily do that with raid DPS gear and offensive stance. </blockquote> How many fights?

[BChizzle]

Oh and whats a good place for lvl 60 heroic?  LF?

[BChizzle]

About 1500-1900 a fight on fae drakes

[BChizzle]

ZOMG cranflock bleh Allies: (00:10) 2540 dps Bchizzle 2540 (19) Whats the point of this anyways? And yes I critted 19 times on a 10 second fight, but of course relic BP with its little 190 to a CA that still hits less then auto attack is ftw.

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote> Whats the point of this anyways? </blockquote>I was curious about this too.  Also curious why you did it without knowing the point of it, lawl.  Bored from the lack of new content I'm guessing? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Cornbread Muffin]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>ZOMG cranflock bleh Allies: (00:10) 2540 dps Bchizzle 2540 (19) Whats the point of this anyways? And yes I critted 19 times on a 10 second fight, but of course relic BP with its little 190 to a CA that still hits less then auto attack is ftw. </blockquote><p>How is the +crit chance on crane flock an argument for or against the relic bp? You should be able to just do the math and see which is better for your particular weapon combo. </p>

[PantherXX]

Cornbread Muffin wrote: <blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>ZOMG cranflock bleh Allies: (00:10) 2540 dps Bchizzle 2540 (19) Whats the point of this anyways? And yes I critted 19 times on a 10 second fight, but of course relic BP with its little 190 to a CA that still hits less then auto attack is ftw. </blockquote><p>How is the +crit chance on crane flock an argument for or against the relic bp? You should be able to just do the math and see which is better for your particular weapon combo. </p></blockquote><p>Ok ... you made me get out my spreadsheets.</p><p>Depending on weapons and DPS mods, 1% crit adds roughly 3-7 DPS (based on the lengthy analysis in another thread).  That means Linksteel adds 6-14 DPS, not even counting the additional CA damage from increased crits.</p><p>An additional 190 damage on Assailing Jaguar used twice per minute adds 6.3 DPS (a little more if you have the recast AA on it maxed).  In addition, it is about the most useless CA for Epic fights, especially if you can't time your CAs perfectly (for example, wielding two different delay weapons).  You can actually lose DPS using this CA.</p><p>Soooo .... I have to go with Linksteel as a choice between these two BPs.  The Perception BP might be a viable alternative (assuming it adds 65 to each hit, not 65 overall).  The increased DPS from that should run about 11 which puts it head-to-head with the Linksteel.  Individual player results would vary. </p>

[Couching]

Basically, critical > dps > haste for monk since critical works on auto attack, CA and proc damages. If your average damage from CA and proc is 200 with 18% critical. The original damage made by CAs and proc is 188.7. With extra 2% critical chances, you can get extra 188.7*0.02*0.3 = 1.13 dps. If your average damage from CA and proc is about 500 with 18% critical. The original damage made by CAs and proc is 474.3. With extra 2% critical chances, you can get extra 474.3*2%*0.3 = 2.85 dps. If your average damage from CA and proc is 800 with 18% critical. The original damage made by CAs and proc is 759. With extra 2% critical chances, you can get extra 759*2%*0.3 = 4.55 dps. The extra damages you got from extra critical chances on auto attack is based on the damage ratio of the weapons that you use. Assuming the damage ratio of weapons is 3.  You get 1.57 times of your original damage in critical hit. If your average damage from auto attack is 300 with 18% critical hit, the damage without critical hit is 272.7. With extra 2% critical chances, you can get extra 272*2%*0.57 = 3.11dps If your average damage from auto attack is 600 with 18% critical hit, the damage without critical hit is 545.5. With extra 2% critical chances, you can get extra 545.5*2%*0.57 =  6.22 dps. In summary, link steel bp is better than relic bp for most raiding monk unless you have very low dps, such 600-700 dps zone wide. EDIT: I made a mistake that I shouldn't multiple 1.3 on CA and 1.57 on auto attack. Since I am looking for <b><i>extra</i></b> dps rather than how many dps 2% critical can add to monk. Though, the conclusion remains the same. For raiding monk in raid, 2% is better than adding 190 to Assailing Jaguar (6.3dps). However, for casual monks, relic bp might be better if your dps is lower than 600-700 dps.

[BChizzle]

Nice work couch.  Also, double attack buffs and the ae from crane multiply couch's numbers.  So as stated, crits is the way to go.

[Cornbread Muffin]

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>It's not impossible. I have been in a pick up raid. The other two monks did average 300-350 zone wide dps. In this case, relic bp is better. </blockquote> I doubt it. If you're doing that little damage I don't see how you could even be hitting CAs in the first place.

[Couching]

See is believing. I didn't believe untill I saw it. The raid dps is less than 6k zonewide. lol (It's a pick up MOA4 raid with 24 ppls) I kept out taunting MT even with only auto attack. Anyway, we still made it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[EQ2Luv]

Bchizzle, any chance i could get a link to your character or his name/server? I'd like to see what gear you were using when you averaged 1500-1900 on the drakes. Also, was that with or without tsunami?

[Timaarit]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>ZOMG cranflock bleh Allies: (00:10) 2540 dps Bchizzle 2540 (19) Whats the point of this anyways? And yes I critted 19 times on a 10 second fight, but of course relic BP with its little 190 to a CA that still hits less then auto attack is ftw. </blockquote>Point? First reading comprehension. I did say _triple_ups_. IE heroics. Ok, now I found the key on my keyb, I meant lvl 60^^^ mobs, not solo mobs. Solo mobs prove nothing. But lest specify a bit, so single lvl 60^^^ mobs and preferably without craneflock. If you want to make a presentable sample, kill 10 and take the average. Also if you say that you lose DPS if you use some CA's, then you really dont know how to time your CA's. You see using a low damage CA is much better than not doing anything while waiting for the higher damage ones to be usable again.

[Cornbread Muffin]

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>See is believing. I didn't believe untill I saw it. The raid dps is less than 6k zonewide. lol (It's a pick up MOA4 raid with 24 ppls) I kept out taunting MT even with only auto attack. Anyway, we still made it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> I believe that the raid sucked that much, I just don't believe that the relic BP would be better. They can't possibly be hitting CAs with that low of DPS so the BPs bonus would go unused. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[BChizzle]

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>ZOMG cranflock bleh Allies: (00:10) 2540 dps Bchizzle 2540 (19) Whats the point of this anyways? And yes I critted 19 times on a 10 second fight, but of course relic BP with its little 190 to a CA that still hits less then auto attack is ftw. </blockquote>Point? First reading comprehension. I did say _triple_ups_. IE heroics. Ok, now I found the key on my keyb, I meant lvl 60^^^ mobs, not solo mobs. Solo mobs prove nothing. But lest specify a bit, so single lvl 60^^^ mobs and preferably without craneflock. If you want to make a presentable sample, kill 10 and take the average. Also if you say that you lose DPS if you use some CA's, then you really dont know how to time your CA's. You see using a low damage CA is much better than not doing anything while waiting for the higher damage ones to be usable again. </blockquote>They were heroics.  I proved my point really so not much else to say about that.  You are either on board and accept that you were wrong about crits vs relic or you can continue to live in ignorance.  Not my problem anymore, hopefully the rest of the board will ignore your opinions on relic bp from now on so you don't hurt their development as monks.

[BChizzle]

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bchizzle, any chance i could get a link to your character or his name/server? I'd like to see what gear you were using when you averaged 1500-1900 on the drakes. Also, was that with or without tsunami? </blockquote>I flip my stuff around so much chances you get what I was wearing during that time is not likely.  The fights were without tsunami and the drakes also do a stun that needed curing so that might explain for the 400 spread in dmg.  The average fight was around 18 secs or so.

[Weizen Heimer]

<p>Just to be mean, think of what you could do with this armor <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=449417120" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=449417120</a></p><p>It doesn't show, but the 3 piece bonus is another 4% crit chance (5 piece is a stun proc and 7 piece is a wopping +60 dmg to Arctic Talon)</p>

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bchizzle, any chance i could get a link to your character or his name/server? I'd like to see what gear you were using when you averaged 1500-1900 on the drakes. Also, was that with or without tsunami? </blockquote>I flip my stuff around so much chances you get what I was wearing during that time is not likely.  The fights were without tsunami and the drakes also do a stun that needed curing so that might explain for the 400 spread in dmg.  The average fight was around 18 secs or so. </blockquote>Mind providing your char info anyway . I'm sure if i check it often enough i'll find you in max dps gear at some point.... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[BChizzle]

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bchizzle, any chance i could get a link to your character or his name/server? I'd like to see what gear you were using when you averaged 1500-1900 on the drakes. Also, was that with or without tsunami? </blockquote>I flip my stuff around so much chances you get what I was wearing during that time is not likely.  The fights were without tsunami and the drakes also do a stun that needed curing so that might explain for the 400 spread in dmg.  The average fight was around 18 secs or so. </blockquote>Mind providing your char info anyway . I'm sure if i check it often enough i'll find you in max dps gear at some point.... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>I'll PM it to you

[Timaarit]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>They were heroics.  I proved my point really so not much else to say about that.  You are either on board and accept that you were wrong about crits vs relic or you can continue to live in ignorance.  Not my problem anymore, hopefully the rest of the board will ignore your opinions on relic bp from now on so you don't hurt their development as monks. </blockquote>Well now, how many swings did you get when you did the 19 crits? That is also missing information. Also this is not about the relic vs crits, it is just about general DPS. The DPS on relic vs. linksteel crits really cannot be seen from basically any parse. But yes, the mobs were a poor selection since they died without the need to let the CA's to refresh during the fight. Probably need to pick up lvl 66 mobs to get any reference.Anyway, my current character crit chance is 25%, but on the parse I did with the drakes the real rate was a bit under 21% (143 out of 685 hits). Sometimes it was up to 30% but more often less than 20%.As for the parse itself, 1500-1900dps. This actually depended on which mobs I picked, some have 22k health and some 25k. But what really disturbed me was the fact that I was doing much less critical hits than what I was supposed to do according to my stats.But at least I learned something, /weaponstat shows my delay as 1,2s and calculating from the parser I get 1,3 to 1,4s (yes, I did take double attack from the Kama into account..). So there is some room for improvement.

[Taiken]

<p>Just the fact that people are still arguing over the symantecs of the monk class.. Is proof there is a problem. The question everyone should be asking is.. Will SOE actually do something about this?.. I doubt it.. </p><p>I could just imagine the meeting. If people on this forum are debating if the monk class is good or broke.. Imagine what the meetings are like. </p><p>"3 of our 5 developers agree.. The monk class is an uber tank with uber dps!"</p><p>The odds are the meeting will be like "We can't give them DPS! No way.. They will be over powered.. We can't give them mit or better avoidance! They could be raid tanks then.. How about we agree to disagree and perhaps leave it in the nerfe'd state that it's in.. "</p><p>Im just waiting till someone complains that we get to FD to easily and watch the skill get nerf'd.. lol..</p><p>"Well.. At least this way we can make some people happy.. What.. There's like only a few dozen monks left anyway, we could potentially wipe out their species and have everyone bcome a plate tank!"</p><p>-taiken</p>

[Herme]

People aren't discussing the symantecs of the monk class, they're discussing the gear we CAN wear.  Entirely different.  As far as there being a problem with the class, yeah I admit we need a little lovin', but go to the zerker boards.  They complain about guards, and I even saw a post about one complaining about...get this...a monk.  Go to the SK board, they complain about pallies, go to guard boards, they complain about zerkers (not as often but it's there)  Anyway, point is, you'll find people complaining about other classes getting too much.  Wizzies complain about scouts deaggro tools.  Coercers saying they're broken.  The monk class isn't the only one with issues.  We just happen to be the most vocal and most substantiated class. 

[saliorboy]

I need a bit of clarification and this thread seems to be closest w/o starting a new one. Some threads say the 1.33 multiplier is only going to be applied to offhand and some say it will apply to both hands. Since I am in the process of trying to get my hands on some fabled weapons I am trying to get some the will match after the changes go in. I can get my hands on Fists of Bashing and Pain fairly easily. At 1.8 and 2.5 those would match pretty close when Haste and the modifier are applied if it only applies to the offhand. Otherwise I am lost as to what to go for. Any recommendations or links to definite responses as to how this is all supposed to go down? I beleive that GU 38 is not on Test yet so I may be asking for answers that do not exist yet. Thanks and Go Buckeyes.

[Cornbread Muffin]

<cite>saliorboy wrote:</cite><blockquote>I need a bit of clarification and this thread seems to be closest w/o starting a new one. Some threads say the 1.33 multiplier is only going to be applied to offhand and some say it will apply to both hands. Since I am in the process of trying to get my hands on some fabled weapons I am trying to get some the will match after the changes go in. I can get my hands on Fists of Bashing and Pain fairly easily. At 1.8 and 2.5 those would match pretty close when Haste and the modifier are applied if it only applies to the offhand. Otherwise I am lost as to what to go for. Any recommendations or links to definite responses as to how this is all supposed to go down? I beleive that GU 38 is not on Test yet so I may be asking for answers that do not exist yet. Thanks and Go Buckeyes.</blockquote>It is applied to both. You can /testcopy your character to the test server and see for yourself if you want proof. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />