Feedbacks of DW changes on test server

[Couching]

I have copied my char to test sever and I have several feedbacks. First, the fabled SoD reward of soulfire kama needs a boost to on par with soulfire Gladius. The damage rating of Gladius is 87.8 and damage ratio is 5.74 (224/39). It is by far superior than Kama since kama is only 84.6 damage rating and damage ratio is only 3 (159/53). Second, the proc ratio is screwed on wielding two weapons. When you wield 2 1h weapons, the delay of each weapon is slowed 1.33 times of original delay. However, the proc ratio stays the same. It's a double penalty of wielding two weapons. Please fix it. Since the delay is increased, the proc ratio should be raised as well. Third, wielding two weapons is much weaker than wielding 1 weapon with 60% double attack. DW is still pointless for rogues, zerker and guardian if they want better dps. For brawler, please let us use shield and give us buckler line at least. if duel wielding two weapons can't make higher dps than 1 weapon+shield combo, what's the point to wield 2 weapons? For example, (85+85)/1.33 = 127.8 < 85*1.6 = 136. The design logic is really flawed. Anyone with 2 weapons should deal more damages than 1 weapon with a shield. Even in EQ1, the delay penalty is applied on secondary only. Fourth: The atk is screwed. I have 2930 atk on test server and I have some high hit ratio on mobs. It might be one of the reasons why some players have higher damages on test server than on live server. For example, 90% hit ratio on vampire in catacomb. It's not right since I have 70% hit ratio on live sever. Now, the delay penalty is applied on both hands, why do you even bother to change DW weapons to 1h weapons especially you didn't tune the damage ratio of old DW weapons. Moreoever, why bother to make brawler weapon anymore? A lot of old 1h fighter usable weapons are by far better than brawler weapon in 1h version for casual or hardcore players. Now, brawlers have to bid new 1h weapons since our weapons are obsolete no matter you are casual or hardcore players. Summary: I have tested my dps on test server. My average dps is lowed about 15%. It's because I got less damage fom proc, and less damage on larger weapon delay. Usually, weapons with larger delay have better damage rating or better damage ratio to keep it on par with with same quality but faster weapons. However, in the DW changes, all DW weapons didn't get a boost on either better damage rating or better damage ratio. The only class bound to DW is brawler. We did less damage from auto attack comparing to zerker and guardian with buckler already. The DW change is another dps nerf to brawler. EDIT: Modified for new bug.

[Novusod]

Why am I not surprised brawlers got nerfed again. Hint: The devs think we do too much dps and are over powered.

[Geothe]

<p>I was wondering what the effect of the increased delay on weapons had on proc rates.  Obviously they have made no adjustment to account for it. Lovely.</p>

[jam3]

id think the kama has a lower rating because doesnt it give like double attack? Anyways they should up the max damage on it say 40 points. /

[Couching]

Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>id think the kama has a lower rating because doesnt it give like double attack? Anyways they should up the max damage on it say 40 points. / </blockquote><p>If it is the reason, then the logic is really flawed since Gladius has 5% block on it with higher damage rating and higher damage ratio !!!</p><p>If the 5% double attack compansates the worse damage rating and damage ratio on kama, where is the 5% block on Kama then? </p>

[Hamervelder]

I copied Atelos over and tested him yesterday.  He's a fencer on the live servers, but I spec'd him str/agi on the test server, to see how his dps would stack up against live.  I did notice a few things regarding dual wield.  I'll say here at the outset that I have no idea how the changes would affect other classes than swashbuckler.  First, it seems like the spread between fencing and dual wielding has widened a bit.  No matter which weapon combo I tried, I could <i>not</i> parse the kind of numbers that I do on live.  I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, because IMO, fencers <i>should</i> do a bit more damage; it helps to make up for the lack of stats and bonuses from not having a secondary weapon.  Whether or not it's due to an overall dps reduction, I don't know. Some other miscellaneous things: With Ruthless Cunning and Inspired Daring up, every auto-attack hit for critical damage.  This may have just been a fluke, but I found it interesting none the less. My poison proc'd <i>every</i> time I landed an auto-attack w/ my primary weapon.  I literally watched the remaining uses decrease from 100 to 87 in a 25-second fight.  At 600 or so points a pop, that's quite a bit of additional damage that I consider a bug. <b>edit</b> Okay, after more testing.... it seems that I may have to eat crow here and take back my words on dps.  I tried some more weapon combos, and different things, getting more in-depth in my testing.  Long story short, I was regularly pulling anywhere from 1.9k to 4.1k.  You read that right. 4.1k dps.  In disbelief, I came back to the live server and tried the same encounter, but w/ my normal fencing setup.  I couldn't parse more than 2.3k, which is about the ceiling of what I usually parse on live.  So .... perhaps with certain weapon combinations, yes, dual-wielding is viable now.

[Wilin]

<p>I tested the changes last night on my guardian. I tried several combos of weapons with different delays with different AA builds. In the end, I ended up with one build that is comparable to the buckler line but without the shield block. Oddly enough, I have 2 weapons that are both 3s delay, and max damage is 179 with the DW changes. My current build on live involves one of those weapons with alot of DPS/Haste from gear and group and buckler line. Well, 2 weapons with same delay and same max damage will hit at the same time and have the same crit range. So, DWing these 2 weapons is akin to double attacking with just 1 of them. So, it's 100% double attack but with 33% slow. Pumping more AA into haste alleviated the extra slow a bit. And I'm almost positive that DWing 2 slow weapons with identical delay with alot of haste/dps/crit modifiers is better than what I can pull out of the buckler line for extdps. In addition, any other double attack modifiers that you may have would likely affect both weapons. So in essence, a double attack modifier is doubled in effectiveness when DWing. In my case by DWing the slower weapons, it was the equivalent of double attacking 118% with 33% slow. That was slightly offset by added haste. It seems hard to believe that would be lower dps than a single 1h with 69% double attack.</p><p>Edit: the delays (off the top of my head) were 2.3s with DW and 1.8s with only 1H.</p><p>The proc rate seems a bit troubling though if the above poster is correct. I didn't watch procs that closely.</p>

[Couching]

<cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I tested the changes last night on my guardian. I tried several combos of weapons with different delays with different AA builds. In the end, I ended up with one build that is comparable to the buckler line but without the shield block. Oddly enough, I have 2 weapons that are both 3s delay, and max damage is 179 with the DW changes. My current build on live involves one of those weapons with alot of DPS/Haste from gear and group and buckler line. Well, 2 weapons with same delay and same max damage will hit at the same time and have the same crit range. <b>So, DWing these 2 weapons is akin to double attacking with just 1 of them. So, it's 100% double attack but with 33% slow. </b>Pumping more AA into haste alleviated the extra slow a bit. And I'm almost positive that DWing 2 slow weapons with identical delay with alot of haste/dps/crit modifiers is better than what I can pull out of the buckler line for extdps. In addition, any other double attack modifiers that you may have would likely affect both weapons. So in essence, a double attack modifier is doubled in effectiveness when DWing. In my case by DWing the slower weapons, it was the equivalent of double attacking 118% with 33% slow. That was slightly offset by added haste. It seems hard to believe that would be lower dps than a single 1h with 69% double attack.</p><p>Edit: the delays (off the top of my head) were 2.3s with DW and 1.8s with only 1H.</p><p>The proc rate seems a bit troubling though if the above poster is correct. I didn't watch procs that closely.</p></blockquote>This is the common misunderstanding of weapon model. Let me make a simple example and you will see why 60% double attack is better than DW with 1.33 slow. For example, a 2.5 delay weapon swings 60/2.5 =24 times per minute. <b>With 60% double attack, it swings 38.4 times per minute.</b> Now, if you have two exact same weapons and dual wielding. Since the delay is 1.33 increased, the 2.5 delay becomes 3.3 delay. Each weapon swings 60/3.3 = 18. <b>Your total swings in DW are 18x 2 = 36 times per minute.</b> See, that's why 60% double attack is better than DW. I have no idea why Devs keep gimping DW. There isn't make any sense that 1 weapon+shield deals more damages than DW. Also, brawler weapons are clearly gimped comparing to 1 hand sword. The best non-EoF contested 1h weapon is 93 damage rating and brawler can't use it. The best non-EoF contested 1h weapon is only 84.7 damage rating. It's really ridiculous. Not to say SoD reward, the Gladius is far superior than Kama in overall. Since the purpose of changing DW is to give players more choices on weapons. Please let brawler use sword or boost brawler weapons to as good as other weapons. Otherwise, what's the point to have brawler weapon? In EQ1, the only reason to have brawler weapons is that brawler weapons are always better than non-brawler weapons since brawler should deal more damage than plate tanks. Now, it's totally reversed. It sounds like brawler is best raid tank and always MT avatars? <img src="/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Wilin]

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><b>This is the common misunderstanding of weapon model</b>. Let me make a simple example and you will see why 60% double attack is better than DW with 1.33 slow. For example, a 2.5 delay weapon swings 60/2.5 =24 times per minute. <b>With 60% double attack, it swings 38.4 times per minute.</b> Now, if you have two exact same weapons and dual wielding. Since the delay is 1.33 increased, the 2.5 delay becomes 3.3 delay. Each weapon swings 60/3.3 = 18. <b>Your total swings in DW are 18x 2 = 36 times per minute.</b> See, that's why 60% double attack is better than DW. I have no idea why Devs keep gimping DW. There isn't make any sense that 1 weapon+shield deals more damages than DW. Also, brawler weapons are clearly gimped comparing to 1 hand sword. The best non-EoF contested 1h weapon is 93 damage rating and brawler can't use it. The best non-EoF contested 1h weapon is only 84.7 damage rating. It's really ridiculous. Not to say SoD reward, the Gladius is far superior than Kama in overall. Since the purpose of changing DW is to give players more choices on weapons. Please let brawler use sword or boost brawler weapons to as good as other weapons. Otherwise, what's the point to have brawler weapon? In EQ1, the only reason to have brawler weapons is that brawler weapons are always better than non-brawler weapons since brawler should deal more damage than plate tanks. Now, it's totally reversed. It sounds like brawler is best raid tank and always MT avatars? <img src="/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p>This is your misunderstanding of my post.</p><p>Your comparison of DW vs. double attack is flawed because you make two false assumptions. </p><p>You assume constant haste while I stated that my haste was not constant. If I'm not putting points into the AA line to get double attack, I can put those points into haste to increase the speed. So the 33% slow is mitigated partially when switching from double attack to DW.</p><p>You are also assuming that I can't double attack when I am also DWing, but in fact, I stated that I can. So any double attack modifier is doubled in effectiveness when you DW.</p><p>Edit: My math says that I'm getting the equivalent of 73% double attack.</p><p>(Primary_swings*1.09)/1.26+(secondary_swings*1.09)/1.26 AND primary_swings=secondary_swings SO (2*1.09*primary_swings)/1.26 = 1.73 or 73% double attack. This is a 26% slow and 9% double attack to both weapons.</p><p>If I couldn't move AAs around to get more haste, it would be (2*1.09*primary_swings)/1.33 = 64% << 69% that I have with buckler. Somebody check my math please. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Another edit: With the leftover AA points, I can do some other neat things too. That's why I stated at the beginning of my post that I had tested several builds. For guardians at least, this isn't just a DW vs. double attack tradeoff. The tradeoff also involves alot of AA that suddenly become available for other things if we choose to drop the buckler.</p>

[Couching]

<cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is your misunderstanding of my post.<p>Your comparison of DW vs. double attack is flawed because you make two false assumptions. </p><p>You assume constant haste while I stated that my haste was not constant. If I'm not putting points into the AA line to get double attack, I can put those points into haste to increase the speed. So the 33% slow is mitigated partially when switching from double attack to DW.</p><p>You are also assuming that I can't double attack when I am also DWing, but in fact, I stated that I can. So any double attack modifier is doubled in effectiveness when you DW.</p><p>Edit: My math says that I'm getting the equivalent of 73% double attack.</p><p>(Primary_swings*1.09)/1.26+(secondary_swings*1.09)/1.26 AND primary_swings=secondary_swings SO (2*1.09*primary_swings)/1.26 = 1.73 or 73% double attack. This is a 26% slow and 9% double attack to both weapons.</p><p>If I couldn't move AAs around to get more haste, it would be (2*1.09*primary_swings)/1.33 = 64% << 69% that I have with buckler. Somebody check my math please. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Another edit: With the leftover AA points, I can do some other neat things too. That's why I stated at the beginning of my post that I had tested several builds. For guardians at least, this isn't just a DW vs. double attack tradeoff. The tradeoff also involves alot of AA that suddenly become available for other things if we choose to drop the buckler.</p></blockquote>My assumption is the basic model for comparison of DW and auto attack. It's a general comparison rather than on a specific case, such as your case since every player may have different set up. However, for basic model, or for mose players, we didn't have double attack modifier. For people without double attack modifier, 60% double is clearly better than DW. Even on your example, if you don't have 9% double attack modifier, for DW, it's 2/1.26 = 1.58 = 58% double attack. In other word, buckler line is still better than DW+20 haste. Unless you have double attack modifier. This is so flawed in logic that DW did less damage than a single weapon with a shield.

[Zagats]

<p>Couching- no disrespect man- but you are what- a Monk? Please don't try to make recomendations for any classes other then your own. I don't care what your math says. Try testing it on the class first. We all know SOE can't do math right.</p><p> I copied both my Brigand and Swash to test, and I have to tell you- with the right combo DW is a no brainer. Personnally I like how they are really only making the DW/ 1H  AA lines more weapon dependant. Even on live servers as it is now- if you have the right DW weapons you can outparse the 1H/ for both swash and brig STR/ AGI - STR/ WIS - AGI/ WIS are all comparable dps with the right weapons.</p><p>My concern really comes with the additional dps from DW. With the recent NERFs to hate in the game, how will tanks cope with a scout that went from 2k zonewide to 3K+? No matter how you chop this change up- dps is going to increase, for some classes and set ups it is a dramatic increase (bards maybe getting some dps lovin finally from what my guildies tell me) for other classes it may be only a slight increase.</p><p>I am excited about the upcoming changes and the opportunity for testing it. Well as long as Aeralik stops summoning Mayong Mistmoor to the East Freeport docks and wiping us for his amusement.</p>

[Couching]

Sudden@Kithicor wrote: <blockquote><p>Couching- no disrespect man- but you are what- a Monk? Please don't try to make recomendations for any classes other then your own. I don't care what your math says. Try testing it on the class first. We all know SOE can't do math right.</p><p> I copied both my Brigand and Swash to test, and I have to tell you- with the right combo DW is a no brainer. Personnally I like how they are really only making the DW/ 1H  AA lines more weapon dependant. Even on live servers as it is now- if you have the right DW weapons you can outparse the 1H/ for both swash and brig STR/ AGI - STR/ WIS - AGI/ WIS are all comparable dps with the right weapons.</p><p>My concern really comes with the additional dps from DW. With the recent NERFs to hate in the game, how will tanks cope with a scout that went from 2k zonewide to 3K+? No matter how you chop this change up- dps is going to increase, for some classes and set ups it is a dramatic increase (bards maybe getting some dps lovin finally from what my guildies tell me) for other classes it may be only a slight increase.</p><p>I am excited about the upcoming changes and the opportunity for testing it. Well as long as Aeralik stops summoning Mayong Mistmoor to the East Freeport docks and wiping us for his amusement.</p></blockquote>If you really read my post, you should find out that I did the test and my dps with DW on test server is lowered. Why? Bcz proc rate is bugged at the moment. The weapon delay is increased 1.33 and the proc rate didn't raise as well. Seriously, just as what you said, if you get dps raise as swashy or brig, other classes may not. PS: If you can get dps increased on test server, it just shows you have problem on your play skill since you can't time your CA correctly. On test server, since weapon delay are increased in DW, player without skill will deal more damage since less auto-attack are going to be wasted by casting CAs. Moreover, no matter how you understand math or not, it is how game works. /shrug The DW isn't going to change your dps if you already know how to play your class.

[Hamervelder]

Sudden@Kithicor wrote: <blockquote><p>Couching- no disrespect man- but you are what- a Monk? Please don't try to make recomendations for any classes other then your own. I don't care what your math says. Try testing it on the class first. We all know SOE can't do math right.</p><p> I copied both my Brigand and Swash to test, and I have to tell you- with the right combo DW is a no brainer. Personnally I like how they are really only making the DW/ 1H  AA lines more weapon dependant. Even on live servers as it is now- if you have the right DW weapons you can outparse the 1H/ for both swash and brig STR/ AGI - STR/ WIS - AGI/ WIS are all comparable dps with the right weapons.</p><p>My concern really comes with the additional dps from DW. <i>With the recent NERFs to hate in the game, how will tanks cope with a scout that went from 2k zonewide to 3K+? </i>No matter how you chop this change up- dps is going to increase, for some classes and set ups it is a dramatic increase (bards maybe getting some dps lovin finally from what my guildies tell me) for other classes it may be only a slight increase.</p><p>I am excited about the upcoming changes and the opportunity for testing it. Well as long as Aeralik stops summoning Mayong Mistmoor to the East Freeport docks and wiping us for his amusement.</p></blockquote> That's my concern as well.  As it stands, it's difficult to shake agro.  The increase in dps is going to make it even more difficult.

[Manyak]

<p>I tested the changes as well, and I can confirm what the OP is claiming. The proc rate remains unaltered even though the delay is increased. </p><p>Also, if you have 2 weapons equipped, then turn on ranged autoattack and type /weapon while attacking, the secondary weapon no longer appears in the details. Instead, an extra blank line is added.</p>

[Itsumo]

The only thing I worry about from this update is the proc rate not being adjusted. The rest of it seems fine.

[Cocytus]

<p>Quote:</p><p>----------</p><p>The damage rating of Gladius is 87.8 and damage ratio is 5.74 (224/39). It is by far superior than Kama since kama is only 84.6 damage rating and damage ratio is only 3 (159/53). </p><p> ---------</p><p>Same deal with Soulfire Sabre. Only 84.6, needs a bit of a higher max damage.</p>

[Couching]

One more new bug I found on test server. The atk is screwed. I have 2930 atk on test server and the hit ratio is incredibly high on vampire in catacomb. I believe it is one of the reasons that some players have better dps on test server than on live server.

[PaganSaint]

Slowing the delays on both the primary and secondary weapons is a rather bad implementation. If they want to make DWing even close to on par with 1h with Double Attack only the secondary weapon should be slowed by the 33% penalty. This is due to without the primary hand being slowed and the secondary being slowed, the general effectiveness of the weapons will then be ~5% damage behind the one hand with double attack. Both primary and secondary weapons being affected by this change will drag each of the damage rating down by that 33%, in effect making dual wielding <i>less</i> damaging and <i>less</i> of an option for those classes that can use a 1h and double attack. For those classes that get no double attack AA lines, but rely upon dual wields for their DPS potential, those classes will actually be further behind the Double Attack classes than they are now due to the way the current DWs have been "upgraded" and the 33% penalty is being applied to both primary and secondary weapons. Slowing both weapons by 33% will counter a large part of the purpose of changing all weapons to one hands and allowing those one hands to be dual wielded.

[ke'la]

One thing your forgeting is inherant procs, if you DW weopons with inherant procs both "Hits" have a chance to proc, while 1H + 66% Double Attack does not allow the second "hit" to proc. Couple that with the ablity to midigate the delay increase with either Haste AAs or grouping with Haste givers (heck remember Monks nativly have what 100 haste almost in DPS mode). Besides, the whole point of this is to load test the changes and help them make the Tweaks befor live, so if DWing is FAR less desirable then 1h-Double Attack then they can tweak it, to make it comperable.

[Couching]

Even counting on extra proc on DW, the damage  of DW is behind 1 h/shield with double attack. The bottom line, even  they are equal,  there is still no point to use DW for anyone who can use shield since you get can extra avoidance from shield. In other word, the only usefulness of DW should be dealing more damage than 1h with shield combo. This is a common sense. Otherwise, what's the point to use DW for less damage and less avoidance comparing to 1h/shield comb? I hope Devs can let brawler use shield again and give us buckler line in brawler tree so that brawler won't be so gimped by DW for less damage and less avoidance.

[PaganSaint]

ke'la the haste AAs and everything don't mitigate the delay, they would only mitigate the delay if they did not apply to weapons that were not hit by the penalty.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

There's one thing to consider. To get any appreciable amount of Double Attack, you need to spend AA's in it. This means you are comparing a person Dual Wielding and no AA's spent.. vs a person using a 1hander with buckler and at least 16 AA's spent. What can you do with your extra 16 AA's to catch up in the DPS area? Well... considering we are talking about Brawler AA's, probably not enough. Honestly.. this still seems to me more like a problem with Brawler AA's not giving enough DPS compared to Warrior AA's. If Strength line were changed and gave like a 25-30% Double Attack on primary weapon with your DW setup, would that change your numbers Couching? I do think though, that if the weapon is considered to be that much slower when used this way, this should be a modifier BEFORE normalization. The 1.33 multiplier should be apply, THEN the new delay should be the basis for normalization on procs. Other than that... Brawlers need a Double Attack AA and a Multi Attack AA. Oh.. and the DR's on these DW weapons need to match the Onehanders better. It's especially evident in the Soulfire weapons, but ALL DW weapons really need a good once over.

[Couching]

The basic concept is that 1h+shield should be defense oriented and 2 weapons on hands should be offense oriented. However, with current setting, even guardian or zerker will deal less damage with DW+20 haste (they spend their aa to get 20 haste rather than buckler line) than 1h+shield with buckler line. Unless you have extra double attack modifier. It shows how game mechanics is flawed. For brawler, just as you said, we didn't have any good aa to get for DW to deal more damages than buckler spec zerker or guardian on auto attack. Our single proc aa is trash. 24% single target 120-200 damage proc is trash, you have to spend 16 points to get extra 20 dps comparing to how many dmg you can get from buckler line. Besides, don't forget that people with shield get extra avoidance and uncontested avoidance in any stance. What can you get with DW if you can't get more damages? The bottom line is, no matter you are war or brawler, you should deal more damage with DW+aa than 1h+buckler with buckler line. If you get extra double attack modifier, DW has better advantages since you are wielding two weapons.

[PaganSaint]

Actually I've been running some test on that couching on my guardian. He is sitting at 11% double attack from 9% Guardian Slaughtering AA line, plus 2% from legendary 3piece bonus. 71% Double Attack with buckler and One hand. With any one hands between 70-80 damage rating, delays of 1.6-3.0s, and comparing to DWs 55-60 damage rating, the DWs can actually achieve the same to just higher DPS numbers. That is 11% double attack on DW and 71% on 1h/Buckler. Spec'd for 22% Melee Crit, 60% buckler double attack, 18 haste +short term 30 haste. DWs can potentially, as of now, pull ahead of buckler/one hand combo if I spec'd for Crits, AoE Auto Attack, and Haste. This is mostly due to the Double Attack I can get without the buckler enabling the current primary weapon to be that much more effective when DWing. After these changes though I am going to refuse to DW ever maybe just because the proc rate nerf when DWing combined with the ridiculous 1.33 multiplier for delays when DWing will decrease the viability of DW compared to 1h+ massive Double Attack. Even when able to use the GBH as my offhand and a 2.4s(3.2s after penalty) weapon as my primary(to get the most double attack benefit) The penalty to DWing was just too great to make me consider it as a viable option anymore. If the Primary weapon did not have the penalty applied DWing would be a viable option for DPS spec'ing for warriors and rogues, as it is, DWing is "meh" at best on live and on test.

[Couching]

Thank you for your parsing. It shows how weak DW is in current set up. Why? Since with buckler line, you can deal same dps as DW but you can also get benefit from shield, the extra uncontested avoidance. See, that's why it is ridiculous. A defense oriented set up has similar dps as offense set up, but with extra defense bonus. Who is going to DW then? Not to say, guardian is lucky that they can get extra haste and extra double attack from their class aa or war tree so that they can raise their dps on DW to match 1h with buckler line. Even though, it's unworthy to use DW for them to just match the dps of buckler line but losing extra uncontested avoidance from shield. (In RoK, you will get a new function to switch your aa, so that even guardian, you can switch defense spec for raid and dps spec for solo/group). For brawler, we have zero double attack nor any extra haste or extra dps from aa with weapons. The worst thing is that we are tied to DW. Our dps aa on brawler tree is totally crap such as single target proc, 120-200 damage 24%, or aoe proc 250-400 16%. Seriously, since brawler is fighter, why don't let us use shield and give us buckler line. At least we can have better dps than DW. It's really sarcastic that people with 2 weapons did less damage than with 1 weapon and a shield. The DW set up should be fixed to make it be something. No matter on live or on test, it's crap for war, rogue and brawler.

[Siclone]

Brawlers are not the only class dependent on DW, Assassins are also, with no double attack option.  I know Brawler “issue” posts out do any other class post 10 to 1, even though they are one of the more over powered classes. Raids tanks and run parse numbers along side scouts.    You guys now are like the boy who screamed wolf.    You should keep to facts regarding DW vs one handed,  And leave the “us brawlers got screwed again” type of suggestions out of it.  You will get more credibility. 

[Couching]

Please stop trolling in feedback thread. If you can't stop trolling, post it in different threads.

[Siclone]

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Please stop trolling in feedback thread. If you can't stop trolling, post it in different threads. </blockquote>you going to cry to the mods again, cause this issue is not a "brawler" only issue that you try to make it out to be. you know there are 24 classes.  your opening post shows your bias when you state, "only brawlers are stuck using dw only"----makes you lack creditability I am not trolling I am trying to help you out, You make some good points in your thread and I like to see them seriously considered, I think that has a much higher chance if you leave "us poor brawler always getting the short end, endless whines out of it. 

[Couching]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Please stop trolling in feedback thread. If you can't stop trolling, post it in different threads. </blockquote>you going to cry to the mods again, cause this issue is not a "brawler" only issue that you try to make it out to be. you know there are 24 classes.  your opening post shows your bias when you state, "only brawlers are stuck using dw only"----makes you lack creditability I am not trolling I am trying to help you out, You make some good points in your thread and I like to see them seriously considered, I think that has a much higher chance if you leave "us poor brawler always getting the short end, endless whines out of it.  </blockquote>Then you must miss what I have posted. I have stated clear that with current set up of DW on live or test server, it's crap for war, <b><span style="font-size: small">rogue</span></b> and brawler. Open your eyes and read again. Not to say, assassin can use shield but brawler is the only class who can't use shield. Of course, I bet you will jump back and trolling that there is no point to use shield for assassin. Though, my statement still stands since I was saying that we are the only class tied to DW. Even we want to use shield, we can't. You have the choice to use or not to use shield, but brawler has no choice ! It's same thing as 2h. We did less damage with 2h, though, you can't deny that you can use 2h. You don't use something is different from you CAN'T use something. Seriously, grow up, be polite and stop trolling in feedback threads.

[Aeralik]

Once the gu38 test update goes out the proc calculation will change slightly.  Since procs are based off you unhasted base delay they will start to use delay * 1.33 to match their true base delay when dual wielding.  If you don't dual wield or use a ranged weapon then they will still use the base delay of the weapon for proc calculations. P.S. See I really do post here too <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kegofbud]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>P.S. See I really do post here too <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> Ha haaaaa! Nice.

[Tatsou]

<p>Just curious but couldnt they implement same type of formula that eq1 uses for DW???</p><p>If I remember off hand is a preset number (according to level i think?) and main hand or primary works off delay of weapon along with haste. I cant remember if secondary ever worked off haste.</p><p>One thing I remember'd in eq1 was always looking at delay and damage and trying to figure out what did most damage in primary and what did average in off hand. Sometimes putting a faster weapon in primary wasnt always the way to go either. But it all depended on the dam/del ratio. The delay never got applied to the offhand and this was where it was preset on when that weapon hit/proc'd. </p>

[mr23sgte]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers are not the only class dependent on DW, Assassins are also, with no double attack option.  I know Brawler “issue” posts out do any other class post 10 to 1, even though they are one of the more over powered classes. Raids tanks and run parse numbers along side scouts.    You guys now are like the boy who screamed wolf.    You should keep to facts regarding DW vs one handed,  And leave the “us brawlers got screwed again” type of suggestions out of it.  You will get more credibility.  </blockquote><p>If you think "Brawlers" aka raid benchwarmers are overpowered .........maybe you should enlighten "us brawlers" on how overpowered these other  classes are:  Swash & Brig, Warriors .........they all out tank and out DPS me --including our Guardian out parses me zonewide.</p><p> We are tired of not offering anything to Raids.......................THE END </p>

[PaganSaint]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Once the gu38 test update goes out the proc calculation will change slightly.  Since procs are based off you unhasted base delay they will start to use delay * 1.33 to match their true base delay when dual wielding.  If you don't dual wield or use a ranged weapon then they will still use the base delay of the weapon for proc calculations. P.S. See I really do post here too <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>I halfway love you for posting on these boards too. I am very glad the proc rates are being looked into and changed to reflect the delay increase. But I am curious to see the math and/or balancing that is behind the delay penalty being applied to both primary and secondary weapons. Is it due to the primary hand being able to double attack, or is it to counter the three extreme top end weapons (which happen to have 3.6+ Delays, nigh unusable with the penalty applied) from being made must have choices? Also couching, to get the same to slightly behind DPS out of buckler/one hand compared to DWing with 11% double attack(23% but weapons are ungodly slow on test ATM without sacrificing significant damage potential) is to spec with a bare minimum of defense. My avoidance is actually parsing out to be almost on par with two, 2% riposte adorned slashers as using a full offensive spec'd buckler/one hand spec, this is due to me being able to take +parry from AAs on top of the adorned +% avoidance.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Choatley@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>Ha haaaaa! Nice.</blockquote> How come my internal voice said that in the voice of Phil Ken Sebben (Steven Colbert)?

[Powers]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Once the gu38 test update goes out the proc calculation will change slightly.  Since procs are based off you unhasted base delay they will start to use delay * 1.33 to match their true base delay when dual wielding.  If you don't dual wield or use a ranged weapon then they will still use the base delay of the weapon for proc calculations. </blockquote> I have no idea what this means.  OKay, I have some idea, but I'm not clear on it. I just want to know -- will it matter which weapon I put in my right hand versus which one I put in my left, and if so, how? Powers  &8^]

[ZeroRavesOn]

<cite>Powers wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Once the gu38 test update goes out the proc calculation will change slightly.  Since procs are based off you unhasted base delay they will start to use delay * 1.33 to match their true base delay when dual wielding.  If you don't dual wield or use a ranged weapon then they will still use the base delay of the weapon for proc calculations. </blockquote> I have no idea what this means.  OKay, I have some idea, but I'm not clear on it. I just want to know -- will it matter which weapon I put in my right hand versus which one I put in my left, and if so, how? Powers  &8^] </blockquote> If I'm reading it right, it just means that the overtime proc rates will be increased by the same amount that swings are being decreased, so that procs over time are equal to that of Live.  If I'm right in interpreting their goal, then, it should only matter which is in the primary or secondary in the same way as it does currently on Live - for effects like Cacophony of Blades or Inspired Daring, where you have a guaranteed chance to proc on every swing of only your primary hand.

[Bunion]

<p>I ran some logs on test with my Swashbuckler first using 1 hand qeynos kilij with me spec'd as wisdom (one handed double attack line) and then did duel wield with the kilij and qeynos cutlass. Both weapons have exact same damage and delay ratings and the same proc. Both 31-92 damage with a 1.6 delay and 76.8 damage rating. I straight autoattacked the mob, no combat arts, no haste proc. and had a 25 haste rating which is 28% increase in attack speed. I killed the same amount of mobs and the same make up mobs each time. (I was able to get both weapons since you can buy them from an NPC in Qeynos Harbor)</p><p>  With 1 handed:</p><p>Total DPS: 502, pierce 91% damage, Power of Marr 9% (Proc Rate 3.6%)</p><p>Melee: 458dps, 751 swings, 751 hits, 143 crits, avg delay 0.66</p><p>Duel Wield:</p><p>Total DPS: 423, pierce 49%, Slash 45%, Power of Marr 6% (Proc Rate 2.5%)</p><p>Melee: 397 dps, 731 swings, 731 hits, 158 crits, avg delay 0.73</p><p> A couple of notes on this, with Freehand Reversal I will riposte 5% of all frontal attacks, which I was swung at 240 times, which should be roughly around 12 extra attacks with 1 hand. But that still only changes the delay to 0.67. (Based on 730 attacks in 494 seconds instead of the 751 in that time) With duel wield I figured the extra pierce damage percentage was due to ripostes since I had the Kijil (piercing) in main hand.</p><p>The proc rate is what I find strange, since it will not proc on the double attack, you'd think that the duel wield would at least equal the proc rate as 1 handed, but apparently not. Obviously this wasn't a huge sample but should give a fairly decent idea of what happens.</p><p> Seems to be at least in this limited test that 1 hand is still the way to go.</p><p>Callus</p>

[russkyj]

<p>I did a test on both live and test in order to get some data on changes to DW.  For the purpose of the test I used my self buffs only and autoattacked.  On both live and test I used the same armor, weapons and adornments.  My self buffed haste is 129 and my DPS is 20. for each of the stats below I killed 40 mobs (mobs were 67-70 non heroic solo mobs)</p><p>Using Marr's fist - Primary and Big Calamity - Secondary on <b>live</b>: I had an average DPS of 638, high DPS of 811 and low DPS of 466</p><p>Using Marr's Fist - Primary and Big Calamity - Secondary on <b>test</b>: I had an average DPS of 735, High DPS of 1132 and low DPS of 452</p><p> For fun I played with a couple of the fabled weapons as well as weaponless with str line</p><p>Using Brimstone hammer - primary and Star Sharpened Cestus - Secondary on test: I had an average DPS of 946, high DPS of 1247, low DPS of 711</p><p>Using Greatmaul of Fury - 2HB on test: i had an average DPS of 744, High DPS of 1117 and low DPS of 696</p><p>Going Weaponless (respec'd for str line double attack and dps mod) on test: I and an average DPS of 638, High DPS of 811 and low DPS of 466</p><p>What does all this tell you?  I dont know. It does tell me to get off my butt and get that hammer and cestus hehe.</p><p> Uryuk</p><p>70 Monk - Unrest</p>

[fideliss]

Out of curiosity, I hear yall are going to flag AONO/CCM/SOD Gladius as primary only.  Something you are probably over looking is this make a 4.0 weapon  build VERY favorable compared to pretty much zero 3.0 weapon builds.  Not too mention AONO+SOD Sabre or Sabre+Bisected is pretty dang uber yet you cant DW CCM/Gladius?  Doesn't make sense to me.

[Couching]

<cite>russkyj wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I did a test on both live and test in order to get some data on changes to DW.  For the purpose of the test I used my self buffs only and autoattacked.  On both live and test I used the same armor, weapons and adornments.  My self buffed haste is 129 and my DPS is 20. for each of the stats below I killed 40 mobs (mobs were 67-70 non heroic solo mobs)</p><p>Using Marr's fist - Primary and Big Calamity - Secondary on <b>live</b>: I had an average DPS of 638, high DPS of 811 and low DPS of 466</p><p>Using Marr's Fist - Primary and Big Calamity - Secondary on <b>test</b>: I had an average DPS of 735, High DPS of 1132 and low DPS of 452</p><p> For fun I played with a couple of the fabled weapons as well as weaponless with str line</p><p>Using Brimstone hammer - primary and Star Sharpened Cestus - Secondary on test: I had an average DPS of 946, high DPS of 1247, low DPS of 711</p><p>Using Greatmaul of Fury - 2HB on test: i had an average DPS of 744, High DPS of 1117 and low DPS of 696</p><p>Going Weaponless (respec'd for str line double attack and dps mod) on test: I and an average DPS of 638, High DPS of 811 and low DPS of 466</p><p>What does all this tell you?  I dont know. It does tell me to get off my butt and get that hammer and cestus hehe.</p><p> Uryuk</p><p>70 Monk - Unrest</p></blockquote>The reason that you get higher dps on test is because you were using fast weapon, 1.6 delay, and you lost more auto attack damages in casting CA on live server. In test server, the 1.6 delay became 2.1 delay, in other word, you lose less auto attack damage from casting CA. Moreover, the atk is screwed on test, I have 2930 atk and incredible high hit ratio on 67-70 heroic mobs.

[Besual]

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>russkyj wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I did a test on both live and test in order to get some data on changes to DW.  <b><span style="color: #cc33ff">For the purpose of the test I used my self buffs only and autoattacked.</span> </b> On both live and test I used the same armor, weapons and adornments.  My self buffed haste is 129 and my DPS is 20. for each of the stats below I killed 40 mobs (mobs were 67-70 non heroic solo mobs)</p><p>Using Marr's fist - Primary and Big Calamity - Secondary on <b>live</b>: I had an average DPS of 638, high DPS of 811 and low DPS of 466</p><p>Using Marr's Fist - Primary and Big Calamity - Secondary on <b>test</b>: I had an average DPS of 735, High DPS of 1132 and low DPS of 452</p><p> For fun I played with a couple of the fabled weapons as well as weaponless with str line</p><p>Using Brimstone hammer - primary and Star Sharpened Cestus - Secondary on test: I had an average DPS of 946, high DPS of 1247, low DPS of 711</p><p>Using Greatmaul of Fury - 2HB on test: i had an average DPS of 744, High DPS of 1117 and low DPS of 696</p><p>Going Weaponless (respec'd for str line double attack and dps mod) on test: I and an average DPS of 638, High DPS of 811 and low DPS of 466</p><p>What does all this tell you?  I dont know. It does tell me to get off my butt and get that hammer and cestus hehe.</p><p> Uryuk</p><p>70 Monk - Unrest</p></blockquote>The reason that you get higher dps on test is because you were using fast weapon, 1.6 delay, and you lost more auto attack damages in casting CA on live server. In test server, the 1.6 delay became 2.1 delay, in other word, you lose less auto attack damage from casting CA. Moreover, the atk is screwed on test, I have 2930 atk and incredible high hit ratio on 67-70 heroic mobs. </blockquote>I highlighted some words in the original post for you.

[Couching]

Have you checked your atk? I have 2930 atk with self buff and I have higher hit ratio on test server. It should be the reason why you have higher dps on test server.

[russkyj]

Yes, I noticed the change to the ATK, mine was 2999 on test.  I used auto attack so shouldnt have made a difference (wasnt casting any CA)

[uberscott314]

<cite>fideliss wrote:</cite><blockquote>Out of curiosity, I hear yall are going to flag AONO/CCM/SOD Gladius as primary only.  Something you are probably over looking is this make a 4.0 weapon  build VERY favorable compared to pretty much zero 3.0 weapon builds.  Not too mention AONO+SOD Sabre or Sabre+Bisected is pretty dang uber yet you cant DW CCM/Gladius?  Doesn't make sense to me.</blockquote><p> that change means you can dw them they just have to be in primary</p><p> gladius and bisected is doable</p><p>aono and sabre is doable</p><p>ccm and gladius wont work</p><p> at least that is how is was explained to me, wont know for sure until lu 38 really hits test</p><p>pick axe is the best offhand weapon - the proc buff and double attack is like having a mini bard always with you lol</p><p>oops misread</p><p>ccm or gladius and pick axe is your 3s combos</p>

[Siclone]

Hereo@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers are not the only class dependent on DW, Assassins are also, with no double attack option.  I know Brawler “issue” posts out do any other class post 10 to 1, even though they are one of the more over powered classes. Raids tanks and run parse numbers along side scouts.    You guys now are like the boy who screamed wolf.    You should keep to facts regarding DW vs one handed,  And leave the “us brawlers got screwed again” type of suggestions out of it.  You will get more credibility.  </blockquote><p>If you think "Brawlers" aka raid benchwarmers are overpowered .........maybe you should enlighten "us brawlers" on how overpowered these other  classes are:  Swash & Brig, Warriors .........they all out tank and out DPS me --including our Guardian out parses me zonewide.</p><p> We are tired of not offering anything to Raids.......................THE END </p></blockquote>look I like brawlers I have one.  and I know I am not alone in this, but every section of this board has a compliant from a brawler that is like 12 pages long.  Some good and right info, some not. the Brawler in my raid, bruiser, and parse around 2 k, normally a little less, that is higher then about 50 percent of the scouts.  And when there is an off tanking job or the MT is off, he tanks all the kos raid zones just fine as the MT. and off tanks EoF raid zones. that to me is very powerful.  His FD saves the raid from revive all the time, I don't know what we would do without a brawler in the raid, and all I read on this board is how much they sux, by brawlers them selfs..... Clearly its the squeaky wheel gets the grease campaign.   It just dont add up and frankly gets old seeing endless posts on how bad brawlers are and they simply just rock. but anyway, my point here was only that, DW issues effect allot of classes and lets keep the topic on the change of DW.....and not how bad Brawlers are getting messed over....(again)...cause frankly that is what the title of the post is (on a side note..there are classes that solo better, there are classes that groups want more and there are classes that raids want more....if you wanted to raid why did you pick a less desirable raid class? I would have love to level and raid with my bruiser but i know it would have been hard so to get a good guild so i rolled another,,,,I did not level to 70, then pepper the boards with complaints about raiding, i knew the score going in and so didn't you.  I have an assassin he cant solo worth a dang compared to other classes,  Should I pepper the board with "why cant we solo like a necro, every day, and hopefully they will cave in like they caved in to fighters letting the buffs go raid wide?....certain classes have strengths and weakness, its up to you to figure out what you want and what bests fits your play and roll it,,,also its not that brawlers are not needed in desired in raids, its that you only need one or two, where other classes you can justify more...)

[Bramwe]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hereo@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers are not the only class dependent on DW, Assassins are also, with no double attack option.  I know Brawler “issue” posts out do any other class post 10 to 1, even though they are one of the more over powered classes. Raids tanks and run parse numbers along side scouts.    You guys now are like the boy who screamed wolf.    You should keep to facts regarding DW vs one handed,  And leave the “us brawlers got screwed again” type of suggestions out of it.  You will get more credibility.  </blockquote><p>If you think "Brawlers" aka raid benchwarmers are overpowered .........maybe you should enlighten "us brawlers" on how overpowered these other  classes are:  Swash & Brig, Warriors .........they all out tank and out DPS me --including our Guardian out parses me zonewide.</p><p> We are tired of not offering anything to Raids.......................THE END </p></blockquote>look I like brawlers I have one.  and I know I am not alone in this, but every section of this board has a compliant from a brawler that is like 12 pages long.  Some good and right info, some not. the Brawler in my raid, bruiser, and parse around 2 k, normally a little less, that is higher then about 50 percent of the scouts.  And when there is an off tanking job or the MT is off, he tanks all the kos raid zones just fine as the MT. and off tanks EoF raid zones. that to me is very powerful.  His FD saves the raid from revive all the time, I don't know what we would do without a brawler in the raid, and all I read on this board is how much they sux, by brawlers them selfs..... Clearly its the squeaky wheel gets the grease campaign.   It just dont add up and frankly gets old seeing endless posts on how bad brawlers are and they simply just rock. but anyway, my point here was only that, DW issues effect allot of classes and lets keep the topic on the change of DW.....and not how bad Brawlers are getting messed over....(again)...cause frankly that is what the title of the post is </blockquote>QFE

[Aeralik]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote> but anyway, my point here was only that, DW issues effect allot of classes and lets keep the topic on the change of DW.....and not how bad Brawlers are getting messed over....(again)...cause frankly that is what the title of the post is </blockquote>Please lets keep this to general issues and not class envy/bickering.  If you have specific issues pertaining to your class use the class forums.

[Eriol]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please lets keep this to general issues and not class envy/bickering.  If you have specific issues pertaining to your class use the class forums. </blockquote>A couple of devs at Fan Faire (not you) straight-out admitted that they don't really look at the class boards very much (if at all).  It was in relation to a different topic of discussion, but still, it didn't surprise me, so your advice here seems somewhat dubious.

[Kaoru]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>  (on a side note..there are classes that solo better, there are classes that groups want more and there are classes that raids want more....if you wanted to raid why did you pick a less desirable raid class? I would have love to level and raid with my bruiser but i know it would have been hard so to get a good guild so i rolled another,,,,I did not level to 70, then pepper the boards with complaints about raiding, i knew the score going in and so didn't you.  I have an assassin he cant solo worth a dang compared to other classes,  Should I pepper the board with "why cant we solo like a necro, every day, and hopefully they will cave in like they caved in to fighters letting the buffs go raid wide?....certain classes have strengths and weakness, its up to you to figure out what you want and what bests fits your play and roll it,,,also its not that brawlers are not needed in desired in raids, its that you only need one or two, where other classes you can justify more...) </blockquote>A lot of us started playing our brawlers from day 1, no one knew what was in store at the time. In fact brawlers on raids in t5 and even t6 were forces to be reckoned with and were a very desirable class to have on raids. What the brawler class is today is a far cry from what it was back earlier in the game, and no one could have known exactly what they would have done. But hey things change, they always will. But still why should  I have to reroll cause soe has borked over my class. I apologize for getting off topic, but this section in your post just irked me.

[Aeralik]

<cite>Eriol wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please lets keep this to general issues and not class envy/bickering.  If you have specific issues pertaining to your class use the class forums. </blockquote>A couple of devs at Fan Faire (not you) straight-out admitted that they don't really look at the class boards very much (if at all).  It was in relation to a different topic of discussion, but still, it didn't surprise me, so your advice here seems somewhat dubious. </blockquote>Dev is a generic term you guys use to encompass 5 different roles we have here internally so that statement isnt surprising to me.  Each one of those roles then has people who specialize in different aspects of that role.   When it comes to the forums we all have a limited amount of time in the day so no I wouldn't expect most people on the team to read the class forums because its not their focus.  Classes and game mechanics are my focus though so I do read them.  In my experience though when these generic threads sidetrack to class bickering the real feedback and substance ends there.  So if you can please keep the class specific stuff to their respective forums it will be seen by me although with 24 classes I obviously can't respond to everything.

[Isard]

<p>Ah ha!</p><p>So you're one of the people we should bug about fixing our classes then!  Good to know.</p>

[Eriol]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eriol wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please lets keep this to general issues and not class envy/bickering.  If you have specific issues pertaining to your class use the class forums. </blockquote>A couple of devs at Fan Faire (not you) straight-out admitted that they don't really look at the class boards very much (if at all).  It was in relation to a different topic of discussion, but still, it didn't surprise me, so your advice here seems somewhat dubious. </blockquote>Dev is a generic term you guys use to encompass 5 different roles we have here internally so that statement isnt surprising to me.  Each one of those roles then has people who specialize in different aspects of that role.   When it comes to the forums we all have a limited amount of time in the day so no I wouldn't expect most people on the team to read the class forums because its not their focus.  Classes and game mechanics are my focus though so I do read them.  In my experience though when these generic threads sidetrack to class bickering the real feedback and substance ends there.  So if you can please keep the class specific stuff to their respective forums it will be seen by me although with 24 classes I obviously can't respond to everything. </blockquote>I'm not going to compromise their names, as I don't want to get them in trouble, but yes, they post on the boards, and yes, they also DEFINITELY do design-level work (well, at least one of them), so this wasn't a case of "class balance isn't in their field anyways" as it most certainly is. Either way, we all have known that class forums have FAR less visibility (just look at the number of dev posts there, which is minuscule compared to other forums, and I mean in ALL class forums combined it's tiny, not just any 1), hence why we all know that posting issues there is not very useful.  Denying it just makes you lose credibility, it doesn't mean the situation is any different.

[Tokam]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Once the gu38 test update goes out the proc calculation will change slightly.  Since procs are based off you unhasted base delay they will start to use delay * 1.33 to match their true base delay when dual wielding.  If you don't dual wield or use a ranged weapon then they will still use the base delay of the weapon for proc calculations. P.S. See I really do post here too <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p>Lies all lies!</p><p>Can you come summon C. Mayong to the efp docks on splitpaw? </p>

[rumblepants]

<p>Well I played around with it yesterday facing single target mobs and groups of mobs (spamming with CAs and tests where I just relied on auto attack only). I'm currently spec-ed as such on my Berserker:</p><p>STR 4-4-8, STA 4-4-8-8-2, INT 4-3</p><p>Then switched to dual wield and re-speced using one or the other of the following templates:</p><p>STR 4-4-8, INT 4-4-8-8-2, WIS 4-3 - tried that to see if I can make up some of the lost defense and it was really bad. Not a good build.</p><p>STR 4-4-8, INT 4-5-8, AGI 4-4-8 - my DPS was about on par with what I was doing with a buckler build. I was doing less damage against single targets obviously and doing about 10% more DPS on group encounters.</p><p>If I wasn't being the MT all the time in my groups I'll probably play around with dual wield more but as it is now I do about the same DPS with buckler build and in my situation I'd prefer not to lose the protection it offers.</p>

[NiteWolfe]

Humm what happened to the weapon vender on Q docks? I talked several guildies into copying over and now the vender is no longer there. Nether is the adornment merchant.

[ZeroRavesOn]

<cite>NiteWolfe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Humm what happened to the weapon vender on Q docks? I talked several guildies into copying over and now the vender is no longer there. Nether is the adornment merchant. </blockquote>Usually any kind of beta-vendors or beta buffers have to be manually repopped whenever the test/beta server goes down, or if the zone gets bounced at any point.  Its the same way for any mob that isn't naturally part of a zones population

[Wilin]

<cite>rumblepants79 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well I played around with it yesterday facing single target mobs and groups of mobs (spamming with CAs and tests where I just relied on auto attack only). I'm currently spec-ed as such on my Berserker:</p><p>STR 4-4-8, STA 4-4-8-8-2, INT 4-3</p><p>Then switched to dual wield and re-speced using one or the other of the following templates:</p><p>STR 4-4-8, INT 4-4-8-8-2, WIS 4-3 - tried that to see if I can make up some of the lost defense and it was really bad. Not a good build.</p><p>STR 4-4-8, INT 4-5-8, AGI 4-4-8 - my DPS was about on par with what I was doing with a buckler build. I was doing less damage against single targets obviously and doing about 10% more DPS on group encounters.</p><p>If I wasn't being the MT all the time in my groups I'll probably play around with dual wield more but as it is now I do about the same DPS with buckler build and in my situation I'd prefer not to lose the protection it offers.</p></blockquote>In order to optimize what you can do with any particular warrior build, you may have to change weapons that suit that build better. Easy example is, don't take INT if you have 1.6 delay weapons. Don't take STR if your weapons' max damage when examined shows 85. I found the best DW warrior DPS build to be 2x3.0 delay weapons, both with 179 max damage and STR448,AGI445,INT488 build. It exceeds my current 1H STR/STA/INT build on live by a little on single targets and is much better on multiple targets. But the loss of block is noticable.

[PaganSaint]

<cite>rumblepants79 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well I played around with it yesterday facing single target mobs and groups of mobs (spamming with CAs and tests where I just relied on auto attack only). I'm currently spec-ed as such on my Berserker:</p><p>STR 4-4-8, STA 4-4-8-8-2, INT 4-3</p><p>Then switched to dual wield and re-speced using one or the other of the following templates:</p><p>STR 4-4-8, INT 4-4-8-8-2, WIS 4-3 - tried that to see if I can make up some of the lost defense and it was really bad. Not a good build.</p><p>STR 4-4-8, INT 4-5-8, AGI 4-4-8 - my DPS was about on par with what I was doing with a buckler build. I was doing less damage against single targets obviously and doing about 10% more DPS on group encounters.</p><p>If I wasn't being the MT all the time in my groups I'll probably play around with dual wield more but as it is now I do about the same DPS with buckler build and in my situation I'd prefer not to lose the protection it offers.</p></blockquote>The reason you find the avoidance in DW specs so much lower is that you are defensively spec'd on top of double attack. That 8% riposte is a significant avoidance buff.

[rumblepants]

<cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>rumblepants79 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well I played around with it yesterday facing single target mobs and groups of mobs (spamming with CAs and tests where I just relied on auto attack only). I'm currently spec-ed as such on my Berserker:</p><p>STR 4-4-8, STA 4-4-8-8-2, INT 4-3</p><p>Then switched to dual wield and re-speced using one or the other of the following templates:</p><p>STR 4-4-8, INT 4-4-8-8-2, WIS 4-3 - tried that to see if I can make up some of the lost defense and it was really bad. Not a good build.</p><p>STR 4-4-8, INT 4-5-8, AGI 4-4-8 - my DPS was about on par with what I was doing with a buckler build. I was doing less damage against single targets obviously and doing about 10% more DPS on group encounters.</p><p>If I wasn't being the MT all the time in my groups I'll probably play around with dual wield more but as it is now I do about the same DPS with buckler build and in my situation I'd prefer not to lose the protection it offers.</p></blockquote>In order to optimize what you can do with any particular warrior build, you may have to change weapons that suit that build better. Easy example is, don't take INT if you have 1.6 delay weapons. Don't take STR if your weapons' max damage when examined shows 85. I found the best DW warrior DPS build to be 2x3.0 delay weapons, both with 179 max damage and STR448,AGI445,INT488 build. It exceeds my current 1H STR/STA/INT build on live by a little on single targets and is much better on multiple targets. But the loss of block is noticable.</blockquote>INT for me was essential to overcome the increase in delay to bring what weapons I had (which were mostly high delay large damage spreads) to an acceptable speeds.

[Zyphius]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eriol wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please lets keep this to general issues and not class envy/bickering.  If you have specific issues pertaining to your class use the class forums. </blockquote>A couple of devs at Fan Faire (not you) straight-out admitted that they don't really look at the class boards very much (if at all).  It was in relation to a different topic of discussion, but still, it didn't surprise me, so your advice here seems somewhat dubious.</blockquote>Dev is a generic term you guys use to encompass 5 different roles we have here internally so that statement isnt surprising to me.  Each one of those roles then has people who specialize in different aspects of that role.   When it comes to the forums we all have a limited amount of time in the day so no I wouldn't expect most people on the team to read the class forums because its not their focus.  Classes and game mechanics are my focus though so I do read them.  In my experience though when these generic threads sidetrack to class bickering the real feedback and substance ends there.  So if you can please keep the class specific stuff to their respective forums it will be seen by me although with 24 classes I obviously can't respond to <b>everything</b>.</blockquote><p>Or in the case of the wizard forum, <b><u>"anything"</u></b>?</p><p>The only post you've ever made, according to the built in "search" feature is this one: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=163774�" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...74�</a></p><p>And it wasn't even a positive post...</p><p>I've seen like one other dev post there in like 2 years...</p>

[delbranson]

<p>I didn't have a lot of time to test things out thoroughly, due to local internet outages, but I did have opportunity to run around as a solo bruiser and duo'd with a defiler in mistmoore catacombs, killing the named and just plowing through various mobs. </p><p>Non-raid equpped, mostly legendary, I experienced no depreciation in my solo/duo performance at all.  Anything I could take down before, I can still take down now that my Closing Time knuckles are slower onehanders.  My autoattack occurs about 25% less often over the course of a minute, but the increased damage per hit compensates for it well enough.  Parses between live and test are nearly identical in overall damage output in these solo/duo encounters, with the exception of the rate of fire and damage per hit. </p><p>I only see a problem if other classes are seeing huge improvement to their damage output post-change with their new choices of weapons and through aspects of their aa builds.</p><p>The overall intent of the changes was to increase the item choices for players.  With brawlers having weapon restrictions from using slashing or piercing weapon types that aren't in "fist" form, it doesn't really achieve that at all.  Most 1h crushing has priest stats, and I don't intend to be dualwielding mage wands any time soon, thanks.  The brawler only weapons are not better, and in most cases, aren't even as good as the slashing and piercing weapons available now to be dualwieled by all warriors and scouts.  </p><p>My suggestion:</p><p>Allow brawlers to use slashing and/or piercing weapons, or give brawler only weapons an improvement of some kind that constitutes the lack of selection brawlers have.</p><p>------------------------------------------ </p><p>Also, with brawler aa choices for improving damage not allowing ANY double attack except barehanded, and our aoe option not scaling with our weapon damage, the damage potential of other fighters just becomes increasingly higher and higher compared to brawlers any time they can improve their autoattack damage.</p><p><b>Its quite simple: Brawler aa damage is constant, Warrior aa damage scales with weapons.</b></p><p>My suggestion:</p><p>Replace the brawler stamina line single target standard damage proc with a double attack chance. (whatever % development thinks appropriate)</p><p>Replace the brawler wisdom line aoe standard damage proc so that it allows auto-attacks to affect multiple targets the brawler is facing.</p><p>Until brawlers get those changes, any improvement that melee classes get to their autoattack damage (through weapon changes like this, buffs, or future changes) is only going to make warrior damage dealing improve compared to brawlers, often surpassing them.</p>

[PaganSaint]

delbranson have you seen the brawlers specific weapons when changed to one hand form?I can tell you, you haven't . The Brawler specific weapons have gotten major boosts across the board damage wise, and the largest problem with brawler specific weapon have been their fast delays, which the penalties and opening up of the very slow EoF one hands have countered.Brawlers over all seem to have made out much better comparatively than any other class set with the DW changes. Their weapon choice has increased exponentially; not to mention the damage ranges, delays and effects gained from the increased weapon choice pool will increase their DPS by more than any other class set will find in the larger weapon choices they have for their wield styles.As for the Brawler AA changes, please keep that to one of the <i>many</i> threads devoted to that. Not to mention those suck. Just make Strength Three, per point, 3% Double Attack and 12.5% Double Attack if primary/secondary are empty. Bam fixed.

[Couching]

No, brawler specified weapons didn't get any boost. In fact, it's crapped.Currently, our best weapons, no matter avatar or cmayong or soulfire kama, are 2.5 delay. On the live server, 2.5 delay weapons become 1.1 delay with max haste. It's best for brawler since most of our CAs cost 0.5 sec to cast and 0.5 sec to recovery. Any skilled brawler can spam CAs without wasting auto attack. However, on test sever, 2.5 delay weapons become 1.6 with max haste. In other word, we have to wait extra 0.5 sec for auto attack then we can click next CA. We will have less burst and average dps. By killing 67-70 heroic vampires in catacomb, I have about 15% less dps on test due to the reason I listed above and the proc rate is bugged. It's 1.33 times less on test server since the weapons delay is increased 1.33 times but proc rate didn't raise as well.Our best non contested weapon is Razor gauntlet: 27 str 25 agi 125 hp 120 power, 32-180 with 2.5 delay, only 84.7 damage rating comparing to Clearcutter Machete: 32 str 32 sta 150 hp/power, 70-210 with 3 sec delay, 93.2 DR. 132 damage every 2 sec lasting 8 sec.Razor gauntlet has less str, zero sta with useless agi and less hp/power. Not to say, there isn't any proc on razor gauntlet with way less damage rating. Even damage ratio on gauntlet is better than machete, Clearcutter is way better.There are a lot of examples of how crap brawler weapons are comparing to 1h sword that we can't use. Aslo, don't be happy that we can use brimstone hammer now. Since there is only 1 weapon with 3.5 delay, the SoD weapon for healer. If you use brimestone hammer with different delay weapons, for example, Cestus from cmayong, you get less dps than Cestus and kama combo since a lot of auto attack are wasted.

[PaganSaint]

Cast another CA.Recovery time is the time it takes you to recover before another CA or Spell can be used.

[Couching]

If you cast another CA, your are going to delay your auto attack and did less damage in overall.First CA costs 0.5 sec to cast and 0.5 sec to recovery. It's 1 sec gone. If you cast another CA, it takes another 1 sec. In other word, your weapon delay is 2 sec from 1.6 sec.PS: Your auto attack won't fire during the recovery time.

[PaganSaint]

It has been for me since launch.The only delay I've ever seen for my auto attack when I was timing CAs has been about .5s averaged out over 5minutes, this was due to lag in my opinion. This is using 2 CAs between a 1.8s hasted auto attack. New(er) weapon is a bit slower and havent noticed any delay.EDIT: Just logged in and went and tested some.2.2s delay listed after haste.3 CAs .5 casting .5 Recovery between.Parsed time between Auto Attack hits: 2.6s

[Couching]

I have checked many threads to make sure auto attack can or can't fire in recovery time.The answer I got is NO. It would be great if Devs can verify if auto attack can or can't fire in recovery time.

[PaganSaint]

Yeah one of my CAs were catching my Auto Attack as the Auto Attack was cycling up.

[Zhephy]

<p>another problem to brawler is weapons are hard to drop for raid with only 1 brawler...while there are many plate, chain class and mayong isnt easy for casual guild to finish SOD... until now i'm still using crap kos weapons...some weapons are slash and pierce and we have rare armors and jewels to boost them</p><p> pls add +slash + pierce to our gears not only crush</p>

[Timaarit]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have checked many threads to make sure auto attack can or can't fire in recovery time.The answer I got is NO. It would be great if Devs can verify if auto attack can or can't fire in recovery time. </blockquote>No, there is no autoattack within the recovery time.It is pretty easily to check if you dont have any casting speed modifiers or recovery timer modifiers. For example in ACT you wont get the same time for an autoattack after you have used a CA. So if you use a CA at 8:05:06 for example, you wont get any autoattacks that have the same timestamp after the CA because a CA takes 1s to complete (0,5s cast and 0,5s recovery).And PaganSaint, recovery timer is not what you described. You described reuse timer.

[Tympist]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Please stop trolling in feedback thread. If you can't stop trolling, post it in different threads. </blockquote>you going to cry to the mods again, cause this issue is not a "brawler" only issue that you try to make it out to be. you know there are 24 classes.  your opening post shows your bias when you state, "only brawlers are stuck using dw only"----makes you lack creditability I am not trolling I am trying to help you out, You make some good points in your thread and I like to see them seriously considered, I think that has a much higher chance if you leave "us poor brawler always getting the short end, endless whines out of it.  </blockquote>Then you must miss what I have posted. I have stated clear that with current set up of DW on live or test server, it's crap for war, <b><span style="font-size: small;">rogue</span></b> and brawler. Open your eyes and read again. Not to say, assassin can use shield but brawler is the only class who can't use shield. Of course, I bet you will jump back and trolling that there is no point to use shield for assassin. Though, my statement still stands since I was saying that we are the only class tied to DW. Even we want to use shield, we can't. You have the choice to use or not to use shield, but brawler has no choice ! It's same thing as 2h. We did less damage with 2h, though, you can't deny that you can use 2h. You don't use something is different from you CAN'T use something. Seriously, grow up, be polite and stop trolling in feedback threads. </blockquote>Actually shield and sword is not a viable option for an assassin. I have tried and not 2 seconds later got about a 3 hour talking to about how stupid i was for even trying it. We loose to much dps going to the shield to be useful in any way to a raid. Atleast you have fd for the guild if healers get stupid.

[Siclone]

of course shield is not viable for assassins or bards or rangers, if you had one you would be laughed at.But thats not the point, once again the DW changes have been hi jacked by brawlers to make it a "brawler only issue" and we have to sit though post after post how brawlers are getting the shaft again.....when people come here to see how the changes are effected everyone. 

[Gaealiege]

<p>Simply stated many of you, while looking at immediate reasons dealing with the present situation in EQ2, are missing the future picture.  It is common practice for SOE and Blizzard (from my experience) to change current gameplay in order that we do not have such a long delay on the major patch days prior, during, and following the release of major new content.</p><p>With the increased level changes for players and NPCs within the Rise of Kunark expansion the need for less DPS from DW or greater DPS for DW will be a key role in making mobs difficult.  Mobs will obviously have substantially more hit points and so players' damage will need to be modified so that the fight doesn't take 30 minutes but in the same token moderated such that each boss mob doesn't drop on the first attempt and within 40 seconds.</p><p> It may well be that with RoK almost all weapons have commensurate ratings and delay such that DW actually does significantly more dmg (and I'm nearly 100% positive that it will).  I agree that one handers should not do as much or more damage, but it is all relative to what you're using as many have said.  How many of the brawlers complaining in this forum have Star Darkened Cestus or Tranquil Stone of Power?  I'm guessing maybe 1 of you.  The kama is just not as good as advertised.  Compared to SoD gladius it definitely needs a retune, but as I said already many of these DW changes are geared toward future content.  The gladius has the block chance now because it was intended to be a main tank weapon, the kama was intended purely for damage, hence double attack.  </p><p>Brawlers have been definitely a scapegoat for SOE rage, but the same thing happens in nearly every MMO, regardless of player complaints to "fix" the class in question.  In EQ1 you could probably safely bet that necromancers were receiving some form of nerf each and every patch.  Blizzard with WoW seems to enjoy nerfing the rogue class.  Just from those two simple correlations with the one from EQ2 it seems that most MMO developers are not fond of the "soloing" portion of the game.  When you increase the brawlers ability to do as much DPS as a rogue class what do you think is going to happen to almost every heroic named in the expansion?  It's going to be farmed all day every day by a brawler, because they will eat the mob, much like they do lower end content as you're leveling one.  On the flip side with more DPS perhaps brawlers will be a viable option for high end raid guilds.  It is common that the highest end guilds have absolutely no brawlers and that is because they bring nothing unique to the raid really and their DPS is subpar unless the fight only lasts for 23 seconds.  *shrug*</p><p>Each side of your DW argument has its obvious basis and bias, but each side has a large disadvantage and in the end no matter what they do 80% of you are going to be back in here [I cannot control my vocabulary] about something else.  Sit back and play the game.  [I cannot control my vocabulary] when something is broken, but not when its challenging.</p>

[rumblepants]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>rumblepants79 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well I played around with it yesterday facing single target mobs and groups of mobs (spamming with CAs and tests where I just relied on auto attack only). I'm currently spec-ed as such on my Berserker:</p><p>STR 4-4-8, STA 4-4-8-8-2, INT 4-3</p><p>Then switched to dual wield and re-speced using one or the other of the following templates:</p><p>STR 4-4-8, INT 4-4-8-8-2, WIS 4-3 - tried that to see if I can make up some of the lost defense and it was really bad. Not a good build.</p><p>STR 4-4-8, INT 4-5-8, AGI 4-4-8 - my DPS was about on par with what I was doing with a buckler build. I was doing less damage against single targets obviously and doing about 10% more DPS on group encounters.</p><p>If I wasn't being the MT all the time in my groups I'll probably play around with dual wield more but as it is now I do about the same DPS with buckler build and in my situation I'd prefer not to lose the protection it offers.</p></blockquote>The reason you find the avoidance in DW specs so much lower is that you are defensively spec'd on top of double attack. That 8% riposte is a significant avoidance buff.</blockquote>Thanks, Captain Obvious. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Which was I played around with having a full INT build. I don't recall if the parry bonus you get from INT4 acts the same way as STA4 where its considered a separate check.

[slippery]

<cite>Zyphius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Or in the case of the wizard forum, <b><u>"anything"</u></b>?</p><p>The only post you've ever made, according to the built in "search" feature is this one: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=163774�" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...74�</a></p><p>And it wasn't even a positive post...</p><p>I've seen like one other dev post there in like 2 years...</p></blockquote>He wasn't even the class dev until very recently.

[PaganSaint]

<cite>rumblepants79 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>rumblepants79 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well I played around with it yesterday facing single target mobs and groups of mobs (spamming with CAs and tests where I just relied on auto attack only). I'm currently spec-ed as such on my Berserker:</p><p>STR 4-4-8, STA 4-4-8-8-2, INT 4-3</p><p>Then switched to dual wield and re-speced using one or the other of the following templates:</p><p>STR 4-4-8, INT 4-4-8-8-2, WIS 4-3 - tried that to see if I can make up some of the lost defense and it was really bad. Not a good build.</p><p>STR 4-4-8, INT 4-5-8, AGI 4-4-8 - my DPS was about on par with what I was doing with a buckler build. I was doing less damage against single targets obviously and doing about 10% more DPS on group encounters.</p><p>If I wasn't being the MT all the time in my groups I'll probably play around with dual wield more but as it is now I do about the same DPS with buckler build and in my situation I'd prefer not to lose the protection it offers.</p></blockquote>The reason you find the avoidance in DW specs so much lower is that you are defensively spec'd on top of double attack. That 8% riposte is a significant avoidance buff.</blockquote>Thanks, Captain Obvious. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> Which was I played around with having a full INT build. I don't recall if the parry bonus you get from INT4 acts the same way as STA4 where its considered a separate check. </blockquote>The 8% riposte is a <i>much</i> larger boost to avoidance than +16(?) parry from the intelligence line, can't remember exact +parry maxed number. This is due to how much(or little) avoidance you actually get from increasing +parry or +defense compared to straight out increasing avoidance percentages.

[delbranson]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>delbranson have you seen the brawlers specific weapons when changed to one hand form?I can tell you, you haven't . The Brawler specific weapons have gotten major boosts across the board damage wise, and the largest problem with brawler specific weapon have been their fast delays, which the penalties and opening up of the very slow EoF one hands have countered.Brawlers over all seem to have made out much better comparatively than any other class set with the DW changes. Their weapon choice has increased exponentially; not to mention the damage ranges, delays and effects gained from the increased weapon choice pool will increase their DPS by more than any other class set will find in the larger weapon choices they have for their wield styles.As for the Brawler AA changes, please keep that to one of the <i>many</i> threads devoted to that. Not to mention those suck. Just make Strength Three, per point, 3% Double Attack and 12.5% Double Attack if primary/secondary are empty. Bam fixed.</blockquote><p>Actually, I have seen the changes, and much of my time on the test server has been spent doing direct comparisons of weapons on the broker and those that I could get others to link for me in chats.  The direct reasoning for my statement is that one handed slashing weapons like the Modinthalis, looted from the same zone as the Closing Time fist weapons are exactly the same rating and damage range but on top of that have a stun proc.  Two weapons, same zone, same damage rating, yet the one that scouts and warriors can now dualwield also has a significant proc.</p><p>If you want to be an arrogant [Removed for Content], take it elsewhere.  If you're going to outright deny someone else's observations, cite examples.</p><p>On top of that, I think this is the PERFECT place to discuss brawler issues, because more than any other fighter, dual wielding is a brawler issue.  Brawlers stand to lose the most if this change is done poorly, and if this results in any increase in autoattack damage for other fighters, then it will specifically handicap brawlers compared to them because of poor brawler aa design.</p><p>Any time autoattack changes are discussed, it needs to be reiterated that increased autoattack damage will always benefit warriors more than brawlers because their aa allows those autoattack damage values to be transferred into double attacks and aoe effect.  And by the way, I think YOUR changes suck.</p><p>I play scouts, I play guardian, but the brawler characters I have are the ones I'm worried about here, because they are getting the least benefit from changes they are most dependent on.</p>

[Ramius613]

Well said, Delbranson. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Siclone]

<cite>delbranson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>delbranson have you seen the brawlers specific weapons when changed to one hand form?I can tell you, you haven't . The Brawler specific weapons have gotten major boosts across the board damage wise, and the largest problem with brawler specific weapon have been their fast delays, which the penalties and opening up of the very slow EoF one hands have countered.Brawlers over all seem to have made out much better comparatively than any other class set with the DW changes. Their weapon choice has increased exponentially; not to mention the damage ranges, delays and effects gained from the increased weapon choice pool will increase their DPS by more than any other class set will find in the larger weapon choices they have for their wield styles.As for the Brawler AA changes, please keep that to one of the <i>many</i> threads devoted to that. Not to mention those suck. Just make Strength Three, per point, 3% Double Attack and 12.5% Double Attack if primary/secondary are empty. Bam fixed.</blockquote><p>Actually, I have seen the changes, and much of my time on the test server has been spent doing direct comparisons of weapons on the broker and those that I could get others to link for me in chats.  The direct reasoning for my statement is that one handed slashing weapons like the Modinthalis, looted from the same zone as the Closing Time fist weapons are exactly the same rating and damage range but on top of that have a stun proc.  Two weapons, same zone, same damage rating, yet the one that scouts and warriors can now dualwield also has a significant proc.</p><span style="color: #ff3300;">So? there are hundreds of examples with all classes and all zones where stuff like that happens.  If you want to start a thread on how brawler weapons are inferior and list examples, then go for it, do it on the bralwer section so us here looking to find info on DW changes don't have to sit there and have threads, Hijacked once again, by brawlers.  </span><p>If you want to be an arrogant [I cannot control my vocabulary], take it elsewhere.  If you're going to outright deny someone else's observations, cite examples.</p><span style="color: #ff3300;">I think it more appropriate you take your brawler issues, to your class section.  This is the test forum</span><p>On top of that, I think this is the PERFECT place to discuss brawler issues, because more than any other fighter, dual wielding is a brawler issue.  Brawlers stand to lose the most if this change is done poorly, and if this results in any increase in autoattack damage for other fighters, then it will specifically handicap brawlers compared to them because of poor brawler aa design.</p><span style="color: #ff3300;">no it is not the perfect place to discuss brawler issues, The dev already posted on this thread that, those issues should be taken to the class section.  And no, as pointed out many times, bards and predators are dependent on DW too, it is just as important to them classes as it is Brawlers.</span><p>Any time autoattack changes are discussed, it needs to be reiterated that increased autoattack damage will always benefit warriors more than brawlers because their aa allows those autoattack damage values to be transferred into double attacks and aoe effect.  And by the way, I think YOUR changes suck.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300;">again, this aint the place for brawlers vs warriors, this is the DW feed back place</span></p><p>I play scouts, I play guardian, but the brawler characters I have are the ones I'm worried about here, because they are getting the least benefit from changes they are most dependent on.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300;">you say they are getting the least benefit ,,,,this is where you show your test results, your parse before and after, give examples on how the dw changes effected you.  Otherwise if you dont have facts , how do you know the changes are bad? and if you do have facts this is the place to post and share them to talk about, not make broad sweep, baseless "worries" </span></p></blockquote>

[delbranson]

<p>As my first post originally described, I personally am getting nearly identical parses between test and live.  Nearly the same end damage values on the same mobs and names solo and duo, with only difference being rate of fire and autoattack damage values.  I also said that I don't see any problem really so long as others are not getting significant damage increases through their new weapon selections and how it translates into end damage through their superior AA trees.</p><p>One specific and valid complaint is in the weapon selection now for warriors vs. brawlers when it comes to dual wielding.  When I said brawlers are getting the least benefit, I mean in that regard specifically.  This change is specifically to open up the weapon choices for characters, and in that regard brawlers restricted to crushing and fist weapons are getting the least benefit.  Warriors now have the full gambit of 1h crushing, 1h slashing, and 1h piercing weapons available to them to dualwield.  The only change this is making in brawler weapon selection is adding some maces, hammers, and wands mostly built for crusaders, priests, and mages (ie. lots of wis, int, casting skills).</p><p>Pagansaint's claim that brawler weapons have been transformed into superior 1h weapons is simply and utterly false, a lying fabrication.  He is simply spouting out ignorant nonsense, unverified and completely misleading.  Look on the broker on test server, comparing brawler equippable 1hand weapons and warrior and scout equippable 1h weapons.  There is not a single legendary brawler weapon that matches the damage potential of legendary slashing/piercing weapons.  The only 3 tradable weapons at all that brawlers can equip that even match the available damage ratings of tradable slashing weapons don't have the procs that those slashing weapons have.  To say that brawlers are coming out ahead in this change because of how great their weapons are now is WRONG, and frankly it lends discredibility to the claimant.</p><p>Warriors and scouts both are receiving far more choices in their weapons now because they don't have two damage types tied behind their backs.  Which leads me back to my original suggestion: either open up the other damage types to brawlers or improve the brawler only weapons so that they at least match the tradable slashing weapons with procs.</p><p>Brawler aa isn't really an issue for this thread unless we're seeing warrior's improve their attack damage with their new weapon selection.  Anytime autoattack damage goes up for melee classes though, it will be said by me or by someone else, it is a greater bonus to warriors than brawlers.  Autoattack increase = brawler depreciation compared to warriors, every time, no exceptions.</p>

[malykii]

you will come to realize after being on these forums that pagansaint and siclone are just windbags that sit on here and argue with people.  if a topic leans one way they lean the other.  its just best to ignore them both and move on.  all they try to do is stir controversy.  not one month ago pagan was posting the exact opposite to what he said here on something i said on another brawler forum.  hipocrits for the win.

[PaganSaint]

Malykii/Sins how about some proof? Except you don't have anything but trolling to offer, which you even did that poorly.My stance hasn't changed at all. Especially since my largest problem with brawler weapons is being addressed partially in this next LU, fast delays.The weapon changes are going to help brawlers more than any other class type. More 2.5s Delay weapons are going to become available. 3.0-4.9s delay, dual wieldable weapons are going to be available.All of the rest of the DWing classes have had the same delay weapons available. They are <i>only</i> getting a larger available weapon pool, not access to better DPS delay weapons.--------------------------------Malykii/Sins or whatever identity you're posting under, you have never supplied proof, never supplied anything except random claims. You can't even support your claims with a how or a why you get your numbers. Please refrain from calling anyone out.

[Couching]

PaganSaint, You keep ignoring the reality that 2.5 delay becomes 3.3 delay that causes brawler less damages.I have already pointed out the reason since we have to wait extra 0.5 sec to cast next CA since we can't fire auto-attack during the recovery time.Of course, for lower end brawler, it's might be good since most lower end weapons are 1.6 delay to 1.2 delay. They will benefit from the change.But best weapons such as Cestus or power stone or kama is 2.5 delay. High end brawlers are [Removed for Content] again.

[PaganSaint]

Grim Brimstone Hammer, Knotty Pine Cudgel, Emerald Hammer, Hammer of Ancient Energy.Probably forgetting one, all 3.0s+ delay weapons. All after changes DWable by Brawlers. Toss in any of the high rating, 2.5s delay fist types, preferably the SoD Kama, as your secondary.The penalized delays should not be displayed in a vacuum. The new delays, penalized, lower Auto Attack DPS included, are mroe conducive to timing CA's under high amounts of haste, which is where anyone will be getting the best DPS anyways, except that wasn't true for DWing brawlers before due to the fast delays on their available DWs. This is changing.

[Couching]

PaganSaint, Have you tested the weapons you listed? If not, you better keep your idea before you test it.I have tested on test server and unfortunately, you get less dps with the weapon you listed since they don't have same delay.<b>You are dealing less dps than a pair of weapons with same delay such as cestus/kama or Razor gauntlet/kama.</b>Moreover, your post just show how sucks brawler weapons are. That's why I have posted in the beginning of this thread. ALL dw weapons, not only brawler weapons, need to be boosted to on par with current 1h weapons.Also, I am not interested to the weapon you listed. The real insane 1h weapon is sword and brawler can't sue. For exmaple, Clearcutter is much better than Razor gauntlet.

[PaganSaint]

Almost all of the scout DWs are fine, have found a few issues/downgrades with performance that I have /feedback /petition /blah blah blah about. Have done to same for all of the top end brawler weapons in live and on test.Don't expect anything to be changed till next time they add zones or the expansion.Have actually gained a good bit of DPS using the Knotty Pine and the Emerald Hammer with a monk. Maxed Haste, plus a Dirge. The proc rate on those two are ridiculously good. Unfortunately I don't believe they will be dual wieldable together.As it is the Grim Brimstone and the Soulfire Kama are far and above the best two weapons available for either brawler. The Star Sharpened Cestus comes in a close second to the Kama for secondary weapon. The combination is so far above anything, even just auto attack only that it changes how brawlers who have those weapons are going to be looked at DPS wise. The Star Sharpened Cestus and Soulfire Kama, before the changes, are impressive for a bruiser, while, as always, a monk needs a slow two hand to get the most out of their skills and haste.I don't see DPS oriented monks swapping from their Vraksakin or TTR Hammers anytime soon unless they leave the Knotty Pine, Emerald Hammer and Grim Brimstone Dual Wieldable with each other.