Magi's Shielding AA worthless in dungeons? [Archive]

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Drokmed

08-15-2007, 12:41 PM

I respecced last night, and put 10 points into Magi's Shielding. It didn't help. When I get attacked, I get killed quick as usual. Granted, the mobs were all heroic yellows, and I think would cut me down quick no matter what if I accidentally pulled too much aggro. Just my observation... will probably respec again tonight, and load up on the Stamina line, to get those resists down!

Force Weaver

08-16-2007, 11:26 PM

It's part of the equation not all all of it.

fy20

08-17-2007, 09:07 PM

How much damage can ward absorb at 10 pts ?How fast can it regenerate? In another word, is it effective against those DOTs (minus damage each dot tick if it's regenerated) ?

Force Weaver

08-17-2007, 09:45 PM

<cite>fy2001 wrote:</cite><blockquote>How much damage can ward absorb at 10 pts ?How fast can it regenerate? In another word, is it effective against those DOTs (minus damage each dot tick if it's regenerated) ?</blockquote>Ward Scales with level. Regeneration rate has already been touched on. <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=376071" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station...d=376071</a>I'll put it point by point since everyone expects Wizzy = easy Heroic Soloer which is not true unless the following is met or some similar build: Wizzy vs Heroics lesson 1: KOS STA max mitigation & ManashieldWizzy vs Heroics lesson 2: Legendary Armor> with excellent mitigation and good resist baubles on the right hand side of your inventory slots. +slash/+crush/+peirce adornments and ring/earrings wouldn't hurt eitherWizzy vs Heroics lesson 3: Get secondary items if available like "enspelled vultak eye" 10 min 400pt ward on hostile spell & "shield of the magi" half a min ward of 300 pts on a % of hits you recieve. There might be lesser versions of these types of items in lower teirs.Wizzy vs Heroics lesson 4: 10 pts in Magi's Shielding, 10 pts in Mail of Frost, 1 pt in Spell reach.Wizzy vs Heroics lesson 5: Have at your command: Single root, Group root, AOE snare, DOT Stun, Medium damage stun, Big Damage knockdown, 3 target knockdown all at Adept III or better.If you meet these guidlines you'll be soloing heroics with the right tactics, although "indoor" heroics are much more difficult than "outdoor" ones. If you're underequipped, don't have the right abilities yet <Lvl>, etc. you are going to have a hard row to hoe trying to solo a group mob. Add in some manaburn and KOS catalyst action to the above outline and there you go...

Azol

08-18-2007, 10:21 AM

I will repeat myself by telling you that you do not need Manashield to solo heroics/nameds in dungeons, as you won't be able to tank them anyway, as you will want much more mana to kill them (WIS line) and you will want faster cast/recast on your roots and stuns (AGI line). I cannot get it how Manashield would allow you to solo nameds. What you will need is more snares (Frigid Gift), hence Cold line for EoF tree. If you do not believe me, pop your Manashield and come to Vicious Breeding Grounds in TT to solo Azdalin (just for example).

Force Weaver

08-18-2007, 12:29 PM

Azol@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>I will repeat myself by telling you that you do not need Manashield to solo heroics/nameds in dungeons, as you won't be able to tank them anyway, as you will want much more mana to kill them (WIS line) and you will want faster cast/recast on your roots and stuns (AGI line). I cannot get it how Manashield would allow you to solo nameds. What you will need is more snares (Frigid Gift), hence Cold line for EoF tree. If you do not believe me, pop your Manashield and come to Vicious Breeding Grounds in TT to solo Azdalin (just for example).</blockquote> Manashield is not used to "straight tank" and "get beat on." It's an extra 5-10 sec to slow/snare them or re-root and backup. Add all that warding stuff I pointed out and 1/2 the hits are hitting your wards not your manashield during the 5-10 sec of resetting. When you finally back up again at most 1/5 of your power got zapped via MS but the mobs at 30% and you can easily finish it with your remaining power.Manashield can be an essential component and equates to your "free encounter reset." So yes, if you just have Sta without all that proc'ing equipment and you want to tank it like a pally you will loose.You don't need more power on fights less than 3 min. Frigid gift is best in groups as it procs everyone elses's 'hostiles.' Numbing cold works more reliably for me when I need it to snare/slow.Faster casting is always an essential part of my personal equation, but so many prefer catalyst-ice comet, manaburn I felt it necessary to point them out.

Force Weaver

08-18-2007, 01:08 PM

Ex encounter:You see target, you have distance maximized between you and target.Ok, starting strategy doesn't matter as there are many equivelent and effective ones but everyone keeps the mob at the distance and tries to lower it's hps using their preferred method.During this time the mob will break its root and will come toward you on many many attempts. You will not always have time to "kite it" everywhere compeletly 100% not allowing it to hit you personally in every scenario. This is unless you are performing the coupe de gras of catalyst-ice comet, manaburn on many heroics. You might sometimes have to change this to root, rending icicles, catalyst-ice comet, BOL, incapacitate, surging tempest, root, manaburn.Your choices as it is coming are:Re-root, use knockdowns, use stuns, pray surging tempest tick comes up again, numbing cold once in range and move back and re-root. There is no 1 right answer. Lots of choices work.Unfortunately, there will be some overlap as the mob is closing and it will hit you in many occasions. Some mobs can really slap you down, so while you're choosing how to "reset" and actually resetting the encounter manashield will help you worry less about watching that HP bar. At these moments fast casting is your friend which is why I'd advocate Sta/Agi rather than Str/Sta for this scenario but... Professionals I see are specced Str/Sta/Manaburn so I'd thought I'd post how the professionals are doing it rather than how I handle it. I'm not a professional after all, and I'm not sharing my spell orders and strategy I'm sharing what I've observed others doing. Solo, I'd advocate Sta/Agi, grouping 'hard stuff' in un-ideal groups I'd advocate Agi/Int, grouping in ideal groups Str/Agi, raiding Agi/Wis, straight professional Str/Sta.As a review, Agi/Wis is best DPS for raiding, not grouping, not soloing. The power conservation of the Wis line is absolutely essential to raiding. FH felt like an afterthought to make the Wis line not useless when not raiding. The extra power won't matter for a single pull on a heroic. If you're trying to solo green epic x2, fine you need the extra power. I also did point out that heroics of the same con vary depending on where they live. Few would argue that MMC heroics aren't nastier than the same in Unrest for example. I've seen other examples in other teirs as well.I've never used manaburn out of principle, but it doesn't mean I don't understand how it can be used or why others favor it so much. Manashield is often unused when it is a very nice niche ability. It improves your success rate as it make it so you have more wiggle room for mistakes. It does not make you a Pally or any other tank as you don't have the parry, reposte, etc. and take all damage like a punching doll. When you group if you grab aggro you have the option to manashield to give the tank time to get aggro back but although you live on most occasions you end up out of power for the fight. The final INT line ability to lower threat by 2 positions > MS in this respect for grouping.I agree 100%, Manashield won't let you get beat on and tank it down.

Azol

08-19-2007, 07:59 AM

Force Weaver wrote: <blockquote>The extra power won't matter for a single pull on a heroic. If you're trying to solo green epic x2, fine you need the extra power.</blockquote> Let aside the epics, you will be burning through your power faster than through the mob's health on many named encounters (I have given you just one example). So you DO need that extra power.

Force Weaver

08-19-2007, 07:49 PM

Really, not to stir the pot, but how in the world would someone with A3's or better and at least 50% over diminishing returns Int points run out of power on a 1 or 3 member heroic mob? I'm not even an advocate of the FT gear and don't wear it myself and I never run out of power. In the low end and middle game yes, maybe that 12% will help you out if you're running around with AppIV, Adept I's, and at 80% of the breakeven Int points for your level. You would notice the power reduction, just like speccing the Fire line in EOF.At endgame where most 70's sit with an assortment of Legendary, Mastercrafted, Adept III's, and at least 650 INT and say a min of 60ish AA how would you be running out of power? Unless you're an advocate of soloing a whole instance yourself like a Nest, COV, etc. but one resist and its over. If you just need that one name for a quest and you get to the one single or trio heroic you can take em out easily without running out of power. Are we on the same page? I'm talking about a single mob/trio not chaining a whole zone in 2 hrs.But yes, perhaps I did overlook the fact that leveling wizzy's are rarely decked like a longtime endgamer, even the non-fabled wizzys. In that case 12% power would come in useful on occasion. In T7 though, there's really no need or necessity to have that 12% for heroic names. I only noticed that 12% when I was in a raid that was chain pulling with no rest.

Azol

08-20-2007, 03:55 AM

It comes handy when you need to kill a name for a quest; it is a requirement when you raid most of EoF content, like Menace Factory, MMIS because you will be sitting there OOP most of the time. And of course, you should understand that wizard is offensive class and Manashield is purely defensive skill, so you just lower your effectiveness.You are not on PVP server, why do you need it at all?But if it is a must for you, you should understand that WIS line will empower your Manashield with +12% of mana to protect you.

Force Weaver

08-20-2007, 10:03 PM

I personally haven't been specced Agi/Sta in PvE in quite a while. I no longer need to mentor-box for AA as I did when I recognized that combat to AP xp conversion is just terribly slow at 70. As I think it may help the whole "wizzy warding for solo heroic play" theme of the thread I've expanded my personal experience even as a PvE player. When I was Agi/Sta with manashield I was thinking along these lines:Mmmm how am I going to get up from 50-something AA's at 70? I've done all the T7 instances, names, heroic/solo quests, etc.... Oh! I can box! It sure is better than getting spotty responses to "Can i mentor for turn in?"... Dang it I die sooo much even with a healer box! I can't play 2 chars as effectively as 2 ppl can even with the nostromo on one. What can I do? Oh let's see what an uber defensive build will do...The 70 Wiz as a mentoring "tank with a turret" for dualboxing where MS, mitigation, ward items which don't scale down, etc. may the pure defensive play more effective with a box. The 400 pt and 300 pt item wards I mentioned stay that way when you mentor <bug>. Magi's Shielding drops down with level but those items sure don't. Being an offensive class was a liablity when boxing. Making up for the class's shortcomings meant my AP's were flowing faster.When going for the uber survivor Sta 4/4/8/6/2 seemed more rounded than 4/4/8/8/0, afterall with the new changes to the KOS where the endlines are now 2 pts after spending 22 pts in a line it does let you make up for more mistakes. When you box it's hard to be as good at manuevering/casting effectively <ad lib changes> as when you're only running 1 character. It's also nice to be able to train out of a zone when your invis is broke/seen through which MS helps out with tremendously. Or for those unplanned adds/pops. Wis only affects your power consumption per casting, Manashield mana-power usage is all about that damage:power ratio which got even better as of late. When I boxed my damage to power output ratio was really good <i.e. no lvl 10 wizy does 3K to a lvl 13 creature but a mentoring 70 does>. I really had even less of a need for 12% less power consumption when I saw this mentoring "uberness factor." _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _In my book any build includes Agi. Fast Casting is one of the best (although underrated) AP bonuses in the KOS lines for a Wizzy for almost any playstyle. It's both an offensive and defensive play. Some see Wis as the essential and others are the add ons. Really unless I was a hard core raider with access to items which summed up to have near the bonuses of the Str and Agi lines I'd never pick Wis as it isn't the greatest DPS for the gear and zones for that matter that I have access to. So even Str/Agi in Lyceum/Labs I don't run out of power. EOF raid zones? What are those lol? Certainly not ones I have access to and probably not the OP yet either.But yes the ppl I see doing the greatest DPS do go Agi/Wis but also have WOCP, Relic Chest with IN focus, full set of Legendary Al'Kabor, Fabled and Legendary Jewelry with + crit, lower recasts etc., and probably 3 equally uber tradeouts for each slot they can play min/max with it that was their particular flavor of the night. They worked/waited a long time to gather all that stuff and its rightfully theirs to play with but we all aren't on equal footing. Thus the biased opinions on what is the best AP setup. Everyone seems to forget not everyone is going to have a bank slot full of fabled/legendary min/max gear. Certainly not a new member of the class asking about how and when to use Magi's.With the gear some wizards wear their total set up is near equivalent to having a Str/Agi/Agi/Wis KOS build! So if I was in that camp I'd be boggled about any build that excluded Wis ever as 12% power and +base damage % would be key to being the most effective.As of late, I've caught up on my AP's and not worried about hitting 100 as I'm sure ROK will easily put me to the cap so I've focused back on Str/Agi until I get items that give crit/lower recasts. Once I acquire enough +crit I'll probably run around in all aspects of the game solo/group/raid on Agi/Wis. But then again, I might not have to do that since we're getting the house item soon to let us switch between 2 setups right? At any rate it seems with the exception of the Int line, most of the 4 other KOS lines seem to have popular and recognized niche placements for certain populations within the class which means the Devs should sleep easier knowing it's more balanced now than it was before. It's definitely hard to go wrong with any combination unless you choose Int for soloing. I'm very happy with the where the class sits now in malleability although I and many others wish there was a way to make it less favored of the professionals of whom we are all too much acquainted with without making it too unfun for the rest of us. I've half-retired till ROK, just catching up on other aspects of the game to occupy my time and occassionally pop in the boards to chime in the POV of a former soloer/grouper/pickup raider who never transitioned to the hard core end game to offer my 2c with what helped me along the way. Hopefully the OP has continued to check up on this thread to see at the end of the game how AP's & gear both can drastically affect your effectiveness in different niches of the game even though us 2 long time endgamers have been too busy counter-preaching while our audience may have snuck out.

Glenolas

08-22-2007, 06:33 PM

<cite>Drokmed wrote:</cite><blockquote>I respecced last night, and put 10 points into Magi's Shielding. It didn't help. When I get attacked, I get killed quick as usual.</blockquote>First, Second, and Third rules of all successful soloing wizards. DO NOT GET HIT. That is the job of plate tanks, not wizards.You have one hit to give in any fight. Make it count if it happens, because the next one will get you into the red, unless you are playing with yard trash heroics. Study your parse (damage taken) and you'll see that no shielding offers much help, so don't bother wasting AA's on them.It's a simple formula: Hit really really hard, and never get hit.