Raiding Wardens becoming rare?

[MullenSkywatcher]

Sadly, our guild had 3 raiding wardens up to last week, at which point the last one switched to a dirge.  Two had already switched to troubadour and necro respectively.  Here's hoping that Rise of Kunark does something to revitalize the class, because EoF killed the radio warden  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Since the new expansion wont include AAs, and a total revamp of our EoF AA lines seems unlikely, it would have to be some major spell changes in RoK for me to consider switching back to my Warden.  Maybe the expansion after RoK is what I should be looking forward too. Hopefully you guys are having a better experience with raiding than we are.

[Gwen]

Its one of the problem of the Warden Class, at start of expansion, its one of the most usefull class (Skill Buff, Raw healing power, ...), but as you advance in expansion, and raid is getting stuffed, you dont need that much wardens (Or we could say, more generally healers). In the end, that depend on your 'raidleader' vision, in my guild, we raid most of the time with 3 Wardens, and anyway, im fine with the "Wardens Sux" thing ... i hope SoE will continu to nerf the other healers and will forgot the Warden Class :p

[Veedublya]

You raid with 3 warden's? wow, hehe. I dont think I have ever heard a guild ahving more than 1 warden in a raid, hehe.

[Skivley101]

<p>I dont think its that some priests need boosting and some need nerfing ... But a revamp of what choices we have and how they stack up between all priests ... or shall i say how they dont stack up?</p><p>I mean take some of the Stats on our buffs and switch them around like swap magic resist with Hp buff , or get rid of those 2 stats , or even combine them on a totally diffrent buff. Also maybe put dmg sheild with spores and give it concentration cost, make primitive group wide for concentration cost,make wolf form concentration cost again with other stats boost so its not just a set it forget buff , Maybe even put a concentration cost on some of the temporary buffs so that having concentration open would be something meaningful like other classes.... These are just some crazy idea's tossed out there , not my vision of what i see balancing or class defineing.</p><p>But my point is to make buffing & our concentration cost more meaningful by giving us more combonation choices than we have concentration slots. It would do away with having a particular buff up all the time that is really only used once in awhile , And make the term "concentration" mean we have to actually think about what we are going to concentrate on instead of just fill those slots up asap.  Our buff procedure might not seem so laborious , LOL</p>

[jka]

<p>A well skilled warden may find themselves a place on a roster. The problem is guilds who recruit by roster needs and also consider min/maxing a raid, has no room for 2 wardens on the roster. Even a well skilled the warden may be told no if there is all ready a warden main. Another issue is even with the skilled wardens, we may always hear from dps classes how much we lack and the whine factor goes up. Not because of our healing skills but because our class just can not make dps classes shine as well as other healing classes.  I've two healed in the main tank group contested mobs including avatars. It was not my lack of skill which makes folks whine- it is just my class does not make dps classes shine as much as their dps class can shine.</p><p>I know the arguement that a heal is a heal is a heal. When you think about min/maxing, asking for a warden to be the healer in some groups is not allowing others who are or do push their mains to pop, to have that little extra ability to do so. Personally, I have hope for us but I know not to hold my breathe. The devs say for change to happen, they want hardcore facts or do not expect a response. </p><p>When our damage shield is not removed by a buff from other non-druid players including the conjurors damage shield or a buff a guardian can cast on himself/herself right before pull or even by a potion and our sow is not over written by a level 16 shaman, then maybe I will have more hope for us being reviewed by the devs. For now- I truly dislike that I must roll up an alt only to not feel like a second class citizen on a raid due to the lack of what my class brings.  </p><p>Sorry if my outlook is not positive and filled with peaches and cream. I've had to learn as a warden main to have thick skin. </p><p>I would like to see some of our basic abilities at this time fixed before I hope for future. Damage shield and sow being just two of them. Once or when or if these type of little things which make you wrinkle your nose are fixed, then I feel I will be more open for hope for us in regards to future spells.</p>

[Fromingo]

Veedublya wrote: <blockquote>You raid with 3 warden's? wow, hehe. I dont think I have ever heard a guild ahving more than 1 warden in a raid, hehe. </blockquote><p> I have.  My old guild was casual and could often barely field 3-4 healers,  2 of which were wardens.   </p><p></p><p>jkamp wrote: </p><blockquote><p>A well skilled warden may find themselves a place on a roster. The problem is guilds who recruit by roster needs and also consider min/maxing a raid, has no room for 2 wardens on the roster. Even a well skilled the warden may be told no if there is all ready a warden main. Another issue is even with the skilled wardens, we may always hear from dps classes how much we lack and the whine factor goes up. Not because of our healing skills but because our class just can not make dps classes shine as well as other healing classes.  I've two healed in the main tank group contested mobs including avatars. It was not my lack of skill which makes folks whine- it is just my class does not make dps classes shine as much as their dps class can shine.</p></blockquote><p>Too true and the since the aggro changes high end raid guilds (at least mine) is often rolling on trash mobs without a warden at all and just using a 3rd aggro transfer/booster class in the MT group.</p><p>We only use 2 wardens if there is simply a lack of other healers.   Usually a Fury or Inquis is chosen for their DPS/DPS buffs.</p><p>I am trying to get that changed by trying to show SOE that wardens need some raid utility attractiveness.   One way would to have our Offensive Skill buff become group wide.   That's one buff Melee DPS/Tank classes ask for all the time but I can only cast it on 1 person and if I lose it on myself my own DPS drops in toilet because I can't hit mobs.   So  if they do make it group wide either leave it at it's current level or if they reduce it then they need to add a Self only Offensive Skill buff for the wardens to maintain their own DPS which is already lower than Inquis by alot and barely able to hold with Mystic (maybe somewhat lower).  Some people want Wardens to get a Str buff  I was not really for that but since the aggro changes I would like to see that as well.   Add it to the Offensive skill buff and make it group wide.  Doesn't need to be a huge Str buff just moderate so people have more incentive to add wardens to raids.   Skills + Str = that incentive IMO.  </p>

[Isard]

<p>My guild (mine as in I founded it) has me and at times two other Wardens when we raid.  For pure healing power I think we're still the best.  When the Templars are crying 'OOP!' I'm still keeping the MT alive.  It will be a long time before I'm replaced from the MT group seeing as I out heal and out DPS all of the other healers in the raid.  Perhaps thats a reflection on them, but it keeps my spot secure.</p>

[Fromingo]

<p>Just curious can your raid put out 40-45K DPS on 74+ EOF Raid content?  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Belgareth]

only times i can get my warden in a raid is when there starveing for healers, granted im only lvl 66.

[MullenSkywatcher]

Tenal@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><p>My guild (mine as in I founded it) has me and at times two other Wardens when we raid.  For pure healing power I think we're still the best.  When the Templars are crying 'OOP!' I'm still keeping the MT alive.  It will be a long time before I'm replaced from the MT group seeing as I out heal and out DPS all of the other healers in the raid.  Perhaps thats a reflection on them, but it keeps my spot secure.</p></blockquote> I dont have a problem with the warden heals, which I think are strong even though they land 3rd after wards and reactives, but the utility.  The power efficiency is lost when the raid is bringing 4 chanters and 4 bards to handle the AoEs and Power Regen.  Watching an Inquisitor heal, dps, and break the stun on Furious Storm and then cure the group makes me want to level up my 33 baby alt to raid with.  I just don't see where the class is heading, other than group and PvP play. My question is, can RoK reverse this trend or will it further marginalize the raiding warden?

[Isard]

<p>Ahhh.  Yes, well, compared to that we do indeed lack...  </p><p>I hope RoK can reverse the trend but honestly, wouldn't that mean our class would have to be re-worked from what it is?  The only direction I can see them taking use is making our buffs more powerful and desireable so that we're considered essential to the survival of a raid / group.  I cannot envision them giving us lots of new debuffs and such.  We are what we are... which is seemingly completely forgotten about.</p><p>Perhaps if we bug a certain lvl 70 Warden playing Dev we might get some love.  Then again, we might just get ourselves banned for harassment.</p>

[jka]

Tenal@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><p>Ahhh.  Yes, well, compared to that we do indeed lack...  </p><p>I hope RoK can reverse the trend but honestly, wouldn't that mean our class would have to be re-worked from what it is?  The only direction I can see them taking use is making our buffs more powerful and desireable so that we're considered essential to the survival of a raid / group.  I cannot envision them giving us lots of new debuffs and such.  We are what we are... which is seemingly completely forgotten about.</p><p>Perhaps if we bug a certain lvl 70 Warden playing Dev we might get some love.  Then again, we might just get ourselves banned for harassment.</p></blockquote><p>I have hope that our buffs are reviewed for RoK to make the warden class a desired class on raids again. With all the changes to combat and the basic system of the current game mechanics, I personally lean towards a serious review of the warden class being in order.  </p><p>I do not believe the warden class will receive debuffs. Shamans have a nice corner on this market atm. Our buffs really need to be compared to the other healing classes and brought up to par. As much as I love the thought of group wide plus to skills, with our druids cousin having only a single target counterpart, I do not feel as if we can hope for changing of our plus to skills becoming group wide. </p><p>One buff which could be reviewed is our group mit buff. As of now, imo the secondary makes no sense for the warden class to have. I would love us to have even the oppisite of the furies- their's bring additional hp regen, allow wardens to bring added power regen via our group buff. Sandstorm truly can use an upgrade. Plus to defense is all right but many tanks I play with are capped all ready. The avoidance the tank gains with sandstorm is less then 4 percent. Change any upgrade to standstorm to include some type of additional dps mod or haste mod for the group. I am all ready rooted and paying power price for this limited spell, give the group the chance to turn out some serious dps with this spell.</p><p>At one point I saw a wish list for aa line for our damage shield adding a type of stoneskin proc chance or a secondary play on this I saw was via aa's having our damage shield proc added hate gain on the casted target of the buff-- a percentage chance via each hit. I would have loved to see either of those ideas come about. </p><p>Wardens can truly stand out on raids when learning encounters and aoe type of encounters. I agrue a well played warden is a respected player. I just would love for our class to be respected as much.</p>

[Fromingo]

Tenal@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><p>I hope RoK can reverse the trend but honestly, wouldn't that mean our class would have to be re-worked from what it is?  The only direction I can see them taking use is making our buffs more powerful and desireable so that we're considered essential to the survival of a raid / group.  I cannot envision them giving us lots of new debuffs and such.  We are what we are... which is seemingly completely forgotten about.</p></blockquote><p>They could give some beefy buffs to us in ROK and some marginal increases to the other healers to balance things.  I know this will not sit too well with the other healers but I play a Fury and Inquis too so I know how freaking awesome they are especially at raids.   Warden is still my favorite and our guild has enough Inquis and Fury now (too many Inquis actually).    </p><p>That will just help bring all our buffs more into line since most other healers have more powerful buffs.   However it won't add to a Warden's untility.  Things like what I suggested with our offensive skill buff being group wide.  I actually get asked for that one so it's something raiders want and therefore makes us attractive but with only 1 person getting it it's not attractive enough to secure us a place in the raid if a Fury or Inquis can go instead.  Especially with the aggro changes that are even making our secured MT spot  unsecured....</p><p>Sandstorm is defensive,  instead of buffing offensive stuff it could add to things like Block/Deflect skills, in addition to defense, which are rarely capped or it could effect epics as well, maybe not stun them like it does group mobs but maybe it could daze/slow them instead.</p>

[Skivley101]

<p>Dont Really care what the Shammy's and Clerics are doin Individualy ... Its only about how we can add up and augment each other IMO.</p><p>If we all had the vampire debuff im MMC ...would make all of our jobs easier .</p><p>I know its more about the classes meshing ... but the individuals will make alota sway</p>

[frostbane]

<p>hehehe...i love it, i come back from a 6 month stint in Vanguard and we are still having the same discussions about wardens.</p><p>Most of what i've heard from melee spec'd wardens is that they do 700+ DPS, and i know from my own raids that i can do 700-1k DPS with only being spec'd for the INT line through spell crits (and a 3 pieces of gear being swapped).  As for usefulness in raids?  The entire game isn't balanced around raiding, and lets face it wardens can tear it up in single group situations.  Even in raids, it's not uncommon for me to end up with about 24% of the total healing (in 5 healer raids) and a zonewide DPS of about 250-350.</p><p> The way i see it we aren't broken (we do need some tweaks to buffs, but nothing major).  What we aren't is a class that can heal and do something else (DPS/Debuff/utility).  What we do is heal, and when we get rolling we SHOULD be blowing all the other healers out of the water.  So if you want a healer that can do some other things, it's time to re-roll.  If you want to play the best straight up healer in the game, keep playing a warden!</p>

[Skivley101]

<p>this is my opinion ---> <a href="http://s199.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/Mktavish/?action=view&current=1PeaceTree.jpg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://s199.photobucket.com/albums/...=1PeaceTree.jpg</a></p><p>And this is my girl friends opinion ...Ogre's are sexy ,wardens are hot ... but Paladins are what everybody wants to be , OooYaaA <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Avanya]

Just curious...does the dev in charge of the Warden class ever respond to posts that make suggestions about improving the class?  If so could someone point me towards some posts?  This is a real question, not sarcasm <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I'm just wondering how much they do listen to us.

[Veedublya]

I dont think SOE has someone in charge of Wardens, hehe. I have yet to see anyone SOE mod/designer post in here replying to our posts. We are the red-headed stepchild of healers apparently

[Isard]

Arani@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Just curious...does the dev in charge of the Warden class ever respond to posts that make suggestions about improving the class?  If so could someone point me towards some posts?  This is a real question, not sarcasm <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I'm just wondering how much they do listen to us.</blockquote><p> Short answer.... no.</p><p>If you want to chase them down you should read this thread and draw your own conclusion:</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=354441" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=354441</a></p>

[Fromingo]

<cite>frostbane wrote:</cite><blockquote>As for usefulness in raids?  The entire game isn't balanced around raiding, and lets face it wardens can tear it up in single group situations.  Even in raids, it's not uncommon for me to end up with about 24% of the total healing (in 5 healer raids) and a zonewide DPS of about 250-350. <p> The way i see it we aren't broken (we do need some tweaks to buffs, but nothing major).  What we aren't is a class that can heal and do something else (DPS/Debuff/utility).  What we do is heal, and when we get rolling we SHOULD be blowing all the other healers out of the water.  So if you want a healer that can do some other things, it's time to re-roll.  If you want to play the best straight up healer in the game, keep playing a warden!</p></blockquote><p>Raids are what keep lots of people going when they have explored all the content. SOE and most gamers know it. So while no class should be balanced around raids exclusively all should have raids taken into consideration when they are designed. Yes wardens can tear it up but frankly so can all the other heal classes who bring other things raiders want like DPS buffs for example. </p><p>If you don't think SOE knows raid attractiveness is important then look at the single most useless raid class there is....the Monk. SOE is giving Monks a raid wide spell haste that is making most of the raiders I know drool and say "we gotta get a monk in the guild!" There is absolutely no lore or basis for monks making wizards and clerics cast their spells faster. This is purely to make monks wanted at raids which they largely are not wanted now. </p>

[Oakum]

<p>I think its like others have said. At the start of RoK wardens will be wanted in raids. Then, like now, when the raids start getting geared up and the 6th healer is much less important, we will be the one left out in the hardcore guilds who start doing more to max their dps or needed raid utility. </p><p>We don't have much utility other then movement utility. SoW and evac which most people agree should never be required in a raid unless its for convenience of moving to the start of the zone easier and/or recovering from a wipe. </p><p>Group we will be the same but will not necessarily be the best healer until people start getting geared up enough to not require the wards, reactives, and big HP buffs for the MT to hits that would spike them to death. We will be the preferred secondary healer though. Pretty much the same as it was for when KoS came out. </p><p>Soon as people start hitting lvl 80 we will probably be back to being able to solo heal the lower group content without a problem and depending on how lucky we were with armor drops ourselves on leveling up, the upper content as well. </p><p>I don't see us getting any new utility cause I am feeling cynical, it would step on the toes of the other healer classes, and it would change our class too much as others have said. </p><p>Course I would just be happy to have STR/WIS gear to use for soloing when I am not wanted for groups/raids, lol. </p>

[Frametree]

<p>We need something to change, for sure.  High end raiding guilds just don't want us, and for good reason.  Betrayal, anyone?  Bah.</p>

[Gwen]

<cite>Fromingo wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Just curious can your raid put out 40-45K DPS on 74+ EOF Raid content?  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>Down Mayong Contest in 6mins or 8mins ...who care as long as he die ? Also ... we all know that the current guilds that can put up to 40-45k DPS on 74+ 'Trash mob' do it with 5 priests and that they wont raid kunark with 5 priest at start~ But to return on the topic, yeah, it would be nice that wardens got some sorts of buff that make shine other classes (Like all other priests do). As a start, i dont know, change the +WIS Buff of Spirit of the Hawk to +FT or regen mana proc ... now, that would be a buff Casters wouldnt care about.

[Skivley101]

<p>Wardens are passe ...... much like the commador 64</p><p>Good in their time but the world has moved on ... to Brigands and Wizards ... who will not want to be healed for 2K every 2 sec when their dying,,, is what my girlfriend is wondering...of course she doesnt play this game ... but i see her point.</p>

[MullenSkywatcher]

<cite>frostbane wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>hehehe...i love it, i come back from a 6 month stint in Vanguard and we are still having the same discussions about wardens.</p><p>Most of what i've heard from melee spec'd wardens is that they do 700+ DPS, and i know from my own raids that i can do 700-1k DPS with only being spec'd for the INT line through spell crits (and a 3 pieces of gear being swapped).  As for usefulness in raids?  The entire game isn't balanced around raiding, and lets face it wardens can tear it up in single group situations.  Even in raids, it's not uncommon for me to end up with about 24% of the total healing (in 5 healer raids) and a zonewide DPS of about 250-350.</p><p> The way i see it we aren't broken (we do need some tweaks to buffs, but nothing major).  What we aren't is a class that can heal and do something else (DPS/Debuff/utility).  What we do is heal, and when we get rolling we SHOULD be blowing all the other healers out of the water.  So if you want a healer that can do some other things, it's time to re-roll.  If you want to play the best straight up healer in the game, keep playing a warden!</p></blockquote>The question wasn't whether or not you should group as a warden.  It was whether you should raid as a warden.  The heroic content in the game can be done with any of the 24 classes.  You can't "blow" the other healers out of the water by virtue of your heals landing after wards and reactives.  The best warden heals (aoe) that really shine are wasted against EOF content since the majority of them stun, meaning you need to have someone break and cure (Inquisitor) or avoid it entirely (Advanced Warning, Sanctuary, BladeDance, City Signet).  Fights where wardens really did well in KoS (Last mob in LoA, Deathtoll Eyeballs) don't exist in EoF as far as I can tell.

[frostbane]

<cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>frostbane wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>hehehe...i love it, i come back from a 6 month stint in Vanguard and we are still having the same discussions about wardens.</p><p>Most of what i've heard from melee spec'd wardens is that they do 700+ DPS, and i know from my own raids that i can do 700-1k DPS with only being spec'd for the INT line through spell crits (and a 3 pieces of gear being swapped).  As for usefulness in raids?  The entire game isn't balanced around raiding, and lets face it wardens can tear it up in single group situations.  Even in raids, it's not uncommon for me to end up with about 24% of the total healing (in 5 healer raids) and a zonewide DPS of about 250-350.</p><p> The way i see it we aren't broken (we do need some tweaks to buffs, but nothing major).  What we aren't is a class that can heal and do something else (DPS/Debuff/utility).  What we do is heal, and when we get rolling we SHOULD be blowing all the other healers out of the water.  So if you want a healer that can do some other things, it's time to re-roll.  If you want to play the best straight up healer in the game, keep playing a warden!</p></blockquote>The question wasn't whether or not you should group as a warden.  It was whether you should raid as a warden.  The heroic content in the game can be done with any of the 24 classes.  You can't "blow" the other healers out of the water by virtue of your heals landing after wards and reactives.  The best warden heals (aoe) that really shine are wasted against EOF content since the majority of them stun, meaning you need to have someone break and cure (Inquisitor) or avoid it entirely (Advanced Warning, Sanctuary, BladeDance, City Signet).  Fights where wardens really did well in KoS (Last mob in LoA, Deathtoll Eyeballs) don't exist in EoF as far as I can tell. </blockquote><p>I raid as a warden....it's not hard.  I show up i put my buffs up, and then on most trash fights when the other healers are warding/reactives i DPS.  Can do average of about 650 DPS.  Not bad, but i'm a healer so not looking for much more.  Then when we get to tough fights i switch back to my heal gear, and i go to work.  Reactives/wards are on long cast timers, me being in a group with a dirge (shorter cast time) can put out greater chloroplast in something like 1.6 seconds.  I keep chlorostorm/chloroplast up all the time, throw in streams when needed and keep my eye on other people in the raid for good measure!  I even manage to use glacial cold, wolves, master strike (if applicable) and oftentimes hex dolls.</p><p> At the end of the fight oftentimes i outheal any other healer by a fairly large margin.</p><p> Really we don't need more healing, or more DPS, or debuffs, or any of that.  What we need are some slightly more defensive oriented buffs.  But that hardly excludes us from raids.  If raids want pure healers we are still the best. </p>

[Isard]

<p>Sounds like me!</p><p>I don't have the DPS quite that high yet but I'm working on it!  I think the thing I would like to see most for us is like as said above, our defensive buffs to be better so that we really help make a difference in our group / raid.  </p>

[Sorano]

<p>If that is the case then your raid needs better gear and/or a better defiler/templar. The mobs I will outheal the defiler and templar on are few and far between. Woushi is one. Due to heal mechanics and wards being overpowered for the current content, a warden is superfluous for 99% of the raid mobs in the game. Actually more accurately for 99% of the raid content a 6th healer is superfluous, and wardens are the most obvious choice to drop out of a raid. Our greatest weakness is that we don't have useful buffs. We cannot compete with a fury and inquisitor in terms of buffing dps classes, or a templar and defiler with buffing defensively. Wardens are meant to be the defensive druid, but unfortunately we don't have the defensive buffs to back this up. I am hoping that RoK will change this and there are already hints that we may see some use to those huge wisdom buffs we currently have.</p>

[Oldlore]

There's no question that wardens heal well.  Arguably, however, other priests heal just as well as we do.   With regards to DPS we're sort of middle of the pack.  I've seen most other priests do as much or higher DPS than a melee=specced warden.  What wardens lack is a well-defined secondary role...we're not big buffers, debuffers, or extraordinary dps.  Our best buff is primitive instinct and my tests on MT grps with a dirge/templar and well-geared tank the extra +65 put the tank way over cap anyway.  I think we need something improved in RoK other than just straight upgrades.  Perhaps putting an extra effect on spores or instinct or actually making duststorm useful in some way.

[Fromingo]

Gwen@Storms wrote: <blockquote><cite>Fromingo wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Just curious can your raid put out 40-45K DPS on 74+ EOF Raid content?  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>Down Mayong Contest in 6mins or 8mins ...who care as long as he die ? Also ... we all know that the current guilds that can put up to 40-45k DPS on 74+ 'Trash mob' do it with 5 priests and that they wont raid kunark with 5 priest at start~ But to return on the topic, yeah, it would be nice that wardens got some sorts of buff that make shine other classes (Like all other priests do). As a start, i dont know, change the +WIS Buff of Spirit of the Hawk to +FT or regen mana proc ... now, that would be a buff Casters wouldnt care about. </blockquote><p> You're answering this question out of context.  It was directed at tenal who stated her guild ran with many wardens in raids.   So if your guild can kill contested mayong in 6 or 8 minutes with 3 wardens then it's a valid response.   </p><p>However from my experience most guilds that can do contested mayong are hard core and won't roll with more than 1 warden if they can at all help it.  </p><p>We just need something that makes raiders want us as much as they want the other heal classes.   I have made several suggestions but for the most part the warden community is cynical,  does not take the suggestions/problem seriously and are generally non-receptive/non-involved.   However I toss these ideas around all the raiders I know personally, especially the raid leaders who pick design the raid groups, and they are VERY receptive and generally state that if these changes were made wardens would be in more raids.   Like making our primal instinct group wide; our raid leaders were loving that idea and said if that happened they would definitely want a 2nd warden in raids.    </p><p>So maybe the problem is our wardens don't really know what their raiders want because they never had anything to give beyond heals,  they don't know that raiders are getting spoiled by inquis/fury etc...</p>

[Isard]

<p>You could be correct.  We use 3 Wardens at times because that's what we have.  We're not a hard core raiding guild so its not an issue yet.  But to really advance in the raid progression we need to address our class needs.</p><p>I'm leveling a Dirge to bring to the raids instead of my Warden and am grooming another Warden to take my place.  Also I have a Defiler on the back burner that will be the next one leveled.  Part of this is so I have options as to what I play but the other part is that for our needs I see a Dirge as more of a benefit than a Warden eventhough I'm usually the top / second healer on the parses.  I suppose if we could push 45k DPS it wouldn't be an issue but since we can't...</p><p>I love my Warden but as has been said, what we bring besides healing isn't enough to justify having more than one in a raid.</p>

[XeroXs84]

Hm this made me curious now.. I always thought Druids are very good as healers in every group... as they can heal up groups quick and have nice buffs for either melee (warden) or caster (fury). So, what Healers do you put in the dps, offtank etc groups? Fury? or not a druid at all? reasons? thanks for the info <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Especial]

<p>I keep seeing threads like this one posted ever since I rolled a warden.</p><p>I've raided w/ the same guild since T5. We are a hardcore raiding guild that has cleared every zone since T5 as well. We usually go w/ 1-2 Wardens and a Fury on most raids. I'm not shooting down anyone's experience or calling anyone unintelligent; however, I've not, in 70 levels and 100 AAs and endless hours of raiding and grouping, found myself lacking in any capacity. I don't say this to blow my own horn or anything, but we have a lot of usefulness to the players who are skilled at playing Wardens. I have to totally disagree w/ anyone who thinks that wardens are useless in raids (or not as useful as other healers). </p><p>Our healing power is overwheling. Especially w/ the healing proc items that we're getting now. 7 set pieces + Healer Earring (the collection one--whats it called?) + Soulfire Hammer. W/ those 3 items alone we can proc heals like crazy. Add that on top of our ability to cast quick heals and crit a good majority of them. We should never lack in our healing powers. I do realize that most people in this thread seem to agree to that. But in any fight, it's common sense to know that if you're dead--you do 0 taunts, 0 DPS, 0 buffs etc. So, I would think, simply for our healing power alone we should be desired in a raid. </p><p>I know our buffs leave something to be desired by some people. We're great defense-aligned healers. We're the defensive brother to the offensive Fury. This seems like a common practice w/ classes. Guard/Zerk-Warden/Fury-Pally/SK. Some are either built for DPS and/or making others DPS well and then you have the classes like the wardens--Which make sure those DPS-ers and DPS buffers stay alive and can survive that AE that would've killed them. I know there are lots of Zerkers or SKs or Furys that are great defensively and Guards that parse 400million on every encounter. There's always exceptions. But as a general rule--we buff up defenses and keep people alive.  I think we do it well, and I think we do it differently than other healers. That doesn't mean we're broken or that we're [Removed for Content] in comparison. </p><p>I've read things about stuns--Serenity is a nice AA line to invest in. Makes you immune and/or cures you of stuns. So you can cure the group and laugh at the inquistor. AE's. The AE immunity in the druid line has replaced Bladedance in our guild. It requires a buckler and stuns you--however--it can be toggled off. Make a macro to equip a buckler and warn your group to find you. AE hits--everyone moves and you toggle off the AE immunity and are free to heal. This leaves our bards to get things like group double attack or run down another line to get more DPS oriented buffs. I saw they fixed Tranquility as well. I use this spell more in groups than raids--but I've used it on raids as well and am very pleased--If someone has 2 dots on them, you hit Tranq and they're cured and healed for around 2.1k-ish, correct? At M1. Primitive Instinct is great to give to a tank to boost their DPS/CAs which help control agro. I give it to our Brig sometimes to make sure all their debuffs land--whatever they're called. Traumatic swipe is it? A few others--Essential to raid strats-but PI helps to ensure they land on the first try.</p><p>If someone says wardens are useless (or not as useful) in a raid situation, then they have either not played w/ one that knows the class very well or haven't played w/ one at all. We are very useful and more than capable of giving the other classes a run for their money.</p><p> Samui</p><p>Dirty Dozen</p>

[Fromingo]

<p>Hey Samui my guild usually runs with 1 warden (although after the recent hate changes lately on trash we've been running with no wardens sometimes to get an additional hate transfer/buff class and clear stuff just as fast as before the changes) or 2 when there's a lack of other healers. </p><p>We all know a well played warden is very useful in raids but so is a well played inquis or fury (or insert healer type here) AND most of those classes bring more DPS from personal DPS and/or group buffed DPS not to mention many have huge debuffs as well. When I am in the raids I am almost always on or near the top of the heal parse but that's not really the point because the inquis, defiler, mystic, etc can all get high on the heal parses too. However the DPS they add to their group, the debuffs they bring to keep a mob impotent, the personal DPS they can generate all are huge factors in their favor. I also checked out your guild roster. You only have 1 of most healer types except warden and inquis so it's not surprising that you run with 2 wardens more often because you're roster really runs near the minimum of healers and a wardens/inquis would be available more often to fill missing slots(from people who miss raid). If your guild had a some extras of the other healers you might find your raids running less often with a 2nd warden as well. </p><p>The AA's you mentioned are accessable by Furies as well so it's not an exclusive tool that Wardens bring and therefore does not make Wardens anymore desireable than Furies. Also wardens and furies who want personal DPS can only pick one of these lines without sacrificing DPS. The stun break AA (which I have) is not useful against all AE's because some of the AE's that stun also stifle so I have to use a 2nd break mechanism, that is available to all classes, while the inquis can just break it all with one button push and still has the alternative methods (potions, status items, etc) to break additional/later AE's. </p>

[XeroXs84]

This made me curious now..I am playing on a PVP Server, on the Q side, so Defiler, Inquisitor arent a option for raiding.. now the question is.. this makes our MT group usually heal with all 3 classes (temp/mystic/warden) and the other groups with warden/furys, if needed OT group with a 2nd templar or mystic.I do realize Furies are the better "offensive" buffers than wardens, so usually the OT gets a warden and the 2 dps groups get a fury each to keep them alive.You think that should be changed? or is it a different story on Q-side-Raiding ?

[Fromingo]

Depends on what you're raiding and how your groups are set up but any of those classes can heal sufficiently for the DPS groups.  The MT group sounds fine with 1 of each type.  Your OT group would probabaly be better served by Mystic/Templar than a warden,  stronger HP/mitigation buffs and still have good strong heals.    Your Mage DPS will love furies more and your scout DPS will like either a mystic or fury.

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<p>The problem seems quite simple to me.</p><p>A Druid is firmly a 3rd choice MT healer. The hp and wards of a Defiler are pretty much indispensable, as are the hp and stoneskin from a Templar. In comparison, Druid buffs are rather insignificant, and they can still heal okay from out of group.</p><p>If stuff was hitting hard enough to justify the extra heals from a Warden in the MT group, then there'd be a pretty balanced situation. But as it stands, 2 healers are entirely sufficient for any instanced content, and it's really only on contested where the main mob is OT'ed away from the raid that a 3rd healer is worthwhile. This is really a consequence of them making mitigation meaningless and toning down all the mobs.</p><p>The aggro changes didn't help with this. Now it's fairly clear a dirge + coercer + swash are required if you want the whole raid to be able to go full burn from the start. So the MT group of choice is guard / dirge / coercer / swash / defiler / templar.</p><p>That being the case, the question is what does a Warden offer a non-MT group over other healers? A Melee class will generally prefer the DPS buff from an Inquisitor, or Agitate from a Fury. Perhaps logic would suggest the Warden is allocated to a melee group to benefit from CoB with a melee AA spec; but Inquisitors seem to fare better in this role. In the case of caster groups Fury is hands down a better choice thanks to their Int buffs and high caster DPS.</p><p>So really, the problem is that Wardens have no real role beyond a 3rd choice MT healer. I'd like to see them tweaked a bit to offer more to a melee group; perhaps group Primitive Instinct.</p>

[Veedublya]

<p>I completely agree with Tuinal... </p><p>Since the new hate changes the new MT setup (for most guilds) requires dirge, coercer, and swash/assassin in order to keep the solid 30k+ raid dps. We have lost our 1 and only <u>wanted</u> spot in raids. </p><p>We all know wardens are very strong healers and can parse top 3 no prob, but that's not the point, the point is we have nothing else to offer the raid. For example, Rangers are very solid dps and can hit 3k np whether its grp or solo encounters, but alot of high end guilds do not use rangers, why? because a swash or brig can put out the same exact dps AND bring debuffs, swipes, and so forth. We are the rangers of healers, sure we can heal, but thats it! A fury can easily parse as high as a warden and bring better buffs, better dps, and still have the nice Druid AA's as a warden.</p><p>I am the only raiding warden in my guild and have been tossing around the idea of betraying to a fury because I feel like the last kid picked for kickball, and im the one setting up raids <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The only reason why I have not betrayed is because of the hope that RoK will bring something nice to the table for Wardens. </p>

[netman]

<p>Even our heal is useless, now. Today, what is a good raid from healing point of view : </p><p>MT : Defiler + Templar</p><p>OT : Myst + Templar</p><p>DPS1 : Inqui (with scout)</p><p>DPS2 : Templar (with mage)</p><p>People want DPS, not heal. If you ever want a 7th healer, the best is the fury, because they DPS more easily than warden. </p><p>Defiler's heal and Templar's tools are overpowered ....</p>

[MullenSkywatcher]

<cite>Especial wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I keep seeing threads like this one posted ever since I rolled a warden.</p><p><span style="color: #66ccff;">My original post was based on my experiences with EoF content.  Previous KoS content is fine with a warden.  I should have been more specific.</span></p><p>I've raided w/ the same guild since T5. We are a hardcore raiding guild that has cleared every zone since T5 as well. We usually go w/ 1-2 Wardens and a Fury on most raids. I'm not shooting down anyone's experience or calling anyone unintelligent; however, I've not, in 70 levels and 100 AAs and endless hours of raiding and grouping, found myself lacking in any capacity. I don't say this to blow my own horn or anything, but we have a lot of usefulness to the players who are skilled at playing Wardens. I have to totally disagree w/ anyone who thinks that wardens are useless in raids (or not as useful as other healers).</p><span style="color: #66ccff;">Disagreement is fine.  I don't have a problem with pre EoF warden raiding since the hardest content Tarinax, Cheldrak etc. is easily done with wardens.  Its the encounter design of EoF encounters that makes other healers utility useful (even necessary) and wardens weak.</span><p>Our healing power is overwheling. Especially w/ the healing proc items that we're getting now. 7 set pieces + Healer Earring (the collection one--whats it called?) + Soulfire Hammer. W/ those 3 items alone we can proc heals like crazy. Add that on top of our ability to cast quick heals and crit a good majority of them. We should never lack in our healing powers. I do realize that most people in this thread seem to agree to that. But in any fight, it's common sense to know that if you're dead--you do 0 taunts, 0 DPS, 0 buffs etc. So, I would think, simply for our healing power alone we should be desired in a raid.</p><span style="color: #66ccff;">The level 7 warden ability from our set gear would be awesome if we were still part of the main tank group.  The hate changes have basically removed us from that group in order to add additional hate transfer (dirge).  Since the proc is a group heal, and we are basically always out of MT group healers, its my opinion that the effect is weaker than the standard +8% heal crit other sets have.  Having the heal crit boosts all healing, in and out of group.  The other proc items you mentioned are available to any healer and as such dont convey a specific advantage to wardens.</span><p>I know our buffs leave something to be desired by some people. We're great defense-aligned healers. We're the defensive brother to the offensive Fury. This seems like a common practice w/ classes. Guard/Zerk-Warden/Fury-Pally/SK. Some are either built for DPS and/or making others DPS well and then you have the classes like the wardens--Which make sure those DPS-ers and DPS buffers stay alive and can survive that AE that would've killed them. I know there are lots of Zerkers or SKs or Furys that are great defensively and Guards that parse 400million on every encounter. There's always exceptions. But as a general rule--we buff up defenses and keep people alive.  I think we do it well, and I think we do it differently than other healers. That doesn't mean we're broken or that we're [Removed for Content] in comparison.</p><span style="color: #66ccff;">Broken? No. [Removed for Content]..well.....I'm not sure what defenses you are referring to when you say we are great defensive aligned healers.  We buff WIS and AGI, which until made important raiding stats (which the devs have hinted at with ROK), the resists we buff are easily compensated by normal resist gear, and its rare that you need across the board resists rather than just one or two (Gardner Heat, Magic, etc.).  Again, all but one of our single target buffs (thorns) is group only.  Since we are rarely in the MT group anymore in EoF, and the Off tank would probably prefer hit points to buffs he can get with gear, this places us in a bind.</span><p>I've read things about stuns--Serenity is a nice AA line to invest in. Makes you immune and/or cures you of stuns. So you can cure the group and laugh at the inquistor. AE's. The AE immunity in the druid line has replaced Bladedance in our guild. It requires a buckler and stuns you--however--it can be toggled off. Make a macro to equip a buckler and warn your group to find you. AE hits--everyone moves and you toggle off the AE immunity and are free to heal. This leaves our bards to get things like group double attack or run down another line to get more DPS oriented buffs. I saw they fixed Tranquility as well. I use this spell more in groups than raids--but I've used it on raids as well and am very pleased--If someone has 2 dots on them, you hit Tranq and they're cured and healed for around 2.1k-ish, correct? At M1. Primitive Instinct is great to give to a tank to boost their DPS/CAs which help control agro. I give it to our Brig sometimes to make sure all their debuffs land--whatever they're called. Traumatic swipe is it? A few others--Essential to raid strats-but PI helps to ensure they land on the first try.</p><span style="color: #66ccff;">Serenity does prevent the most prevalent AoE in EoF, Furious Storm, which is a stifle.  The inquisitor can self break the stifle, and then cure the group.  Since wardens dont get a group cure, we take a long time to recover unless the AOE is blocked entirely.  The 3 meter range on Tortoise shell makes it very weak in comparison to bladedance, which has a 25 meter range and no root/stun/stifle associated with it. Brigs get Swipe and Dispatch, I believe is what you were referring to.</span><p>If someone says wardens are useless (or not as useful) in a raid situation, then they have either not played w/ one that knows the class very well or haven't played w/ one at all. We are very useful and more than capable of giving the other classes a run for their money.</p><span style="color: #66ccff;">I'm glad you still enjoy your warden and seem to be raiding effectively, however, most of the warden posting who disagree with you are also raiding wardens and have similar raid experience to you.  I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss their views.  Btw, when you are trying to mow the mobs in MMIS down in 10 seconds, I hope the wardens are bringing fire seeds from EH or using a Sol Ro miracle, cause otherwise the Inquisitor is just casting Verdict and laying the smackdown (percentage based epic damage ftw!).  The other healers don't need a nerf, wardens need more utility.  We'll see how the devs change the relationship with the AGI and WIS stats to see if they are needed, at which point maybe people will want need Aspect of the Hawk etc.</span><p> Samui</p><p>Dirty Dozen</p></blockquote>