Dev Speaks on Brawler Issues: We're too good to be fixed.

[EQ2Luv]

Interesting thread in the bruiser forums. <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=376799" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=376799</a> Seems to me the devs are playing a different game than us as they state that we are better group tanks and have dps that is too good to let us be viable raid tanks.

[saliorboy]

<p><b><i>Avoidance tanking: are we ever going to get that working? </i></b> <i> This is a tricky one. Mitigation is traditionally always more effective that avoidance and it's been hard to balance monks and bruisers without making them overpowered because in group and solo situations they're very powerful tanks. And to have them be more effective than the mitigation tanks group/solo and be as or more effective in a raid situation is really risky, especially when they can do as much DPS as they can. The minimum deflection chance is an attempt to bring more parity between brawlers and the mitigation tanks.</i></p><p><i>Man, I never realized how uber I was. Im off to tank MMIS, be back in a few.</i></p>

[Bladewind]

<p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=376799" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Kaisuko's post</a> in the thread about this same subject over on the bruiser forums is, in my opinion, the perfect reply.  I'm forced to wonder if the developer who made those comments is playing the same game as I am.  </p><p>Two things that I want to reiterate from Kaisuko's post that are, to me, the core of our issues:</p><p>1) Why is brawler uncontested avoidance inferior to that of a plate tank?  Why, in addition, is it much more restrictive?  Currently, a plate tank is an avoidance tank and a mitigation tank while a brawler is just second rate at both.  Plate tanks have more uncontested avodiance and are not restricted by their stances.  A brawler has less, and only gets their inferior avoidance in defensive stance.  Why are the so-called avoidance tanks tied for last amongst all 6 fighter classes for uncontested avoidance?</p><p>2) While a brawler may have a better base level of dps if one completely neglects AAs, the real picture is that brawlers enjoy zero dps advantage due to our AA's being proc based while plate tanks enjoy AA's that modify their weapon.  The end result is that a brawler plateaus in dps while a plate tank accelerates and surpasses the brawler as their equipment improves.</p><p>Solutions:</p><p>1) Give brawlers the highest uncontested avoidance.. period.  The base value should be more than what plate tanks have and should be divorced from stances.  Something on the order of 25% would be good.</p><p>2) Change brawler dps AAs such that they modify weapon damage rather than providing static procs.  </p><ul><li>Modifiy the strength line such that gives partial benefits to brawlers who use weapons (specifically, str 2 with zero restriction, str 3 gives 3-4% double attack per rank with a weapon equipped, and str 4 gives 1% riposte per rank with a weapon equipped). </li><li>Change wisdom 3 such that it gives 5% multi attack per rank rather than a fixed aoe proc.</li></ul><p>This will give brawlers a rightful 5ish% uncontested avoidance advantage and bring their dps in line with what it should be.</p>

[Wildmage]

<cite>Bladewind wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=376799" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Kaisuko's post</a> in the thread about this same subject over on the bruiser forums is, in my opinion, the perfect reply.  I'm forced to wonder if the developer who made those comments is playing the same game as I am.  </p><p>Two things that I want to reiterate from Kaisuko's post that are, to me, the core of our issues:</p><p>1) Why is brawler uncontested avoidance inferior to that of a plate tank?  Why, in addition, is it much more restrictive?  Currently, a plate tank is an avoidance tank and a mitigation tank while a brawler is just second rate at both.  Plate tanks have more uncontested avodiance and are not restricted by their stances.  A brawler has less, and only gets their inferior avoidance in defensive stance.  Why are the so-called avoidance tanks tied for last amongst all 6 fighter classes for uncontested avoidance?</p><p>2) While a brawler may have a better base level of dps if one completely neglects AAs, the real picture is that brawlers enjoy zero dps advantage due to our AA's being proc based while plate tanks enjoy AA's that modify their weapon.  The end result is that a brawler plateaus in dps while a plate tank accelerates and surpasses the brawler as their equipment improves.</p><p>Solutions:</p><p>1) Give brawlers the highest uncontested avoidance.. period.  The base value should be more than what plate tanks have and should be divorced from stances.  Something on the order of 25% would be good.</p><p>2) Change brawler dps AAs such that they modify weapon damage rather than providing static procs.  </p><ul><li>Modifiy the strength line such that gives partial benefits to brawlers who use weapons (specifically, str 2 with zero restriction, str 3 gives 3-4% double attack per rank with a weapon equipped, and str 4 gives 1% riposte per rank with a weapon equipped). </li><li>Change wisdom 3 such that it gives 5% multi attack per rank rather than a fixed aoe proc.</li></ul><p>This will give brawlers a rightful 5ish% uncontested avoidance advantage and bring their dps in line with what it should be.</p></blockquote>I've given it alot of thought and I do mean a fair bit and I think shields and related skills need to be moved from Avoidance to Mitigation.

[PsyStorm]

I think a little common sense is needed here. Who is going to have higher avoidance: Monk wearing all leather and carrying a 2H staff or 2 light weapons OR Guardian wearing plate armor head to toe and carrying a chunky 1H and a tower shield hmmm Which of the above is going to have higher mitigation? Let's use a little RL physics Sony! And if you pair yourself w/ an appropriate healer (monk/warden, guard/inquis), you are doing quite well if you are a mit tank or an avoid tank.  Why is that so hard to change? And I agree w/ Wildmage.  I don't see how it makes sense for a shield to be avoidance.  Do you jump on the shield and slide across the room in order to "avoid" being hit??  No!!  You take the hit w/ the shield in order to save yourself a good head beating.  That is mitigation, not avoidance. Just give brawlers their niche.  Give them stuns/stifles/knockdowns that work on epics; give them some raidwide buffs. Throw us a [Removed for Content] bone... SOMETHING!

[Harpax]

<p>I was the one that asked this question in the panel.  While the transcript response has most of the information in the answer, they left some things out.  I added the additional information that I remembered from the conversation in the bruiser thread.</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=376799�" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...99�</a></p>

[Gasheron]

<p>Well, as an explanation to what I'm guessing is their reasoning for shields being avoidance, avoiding a blow means it doesn't hit YOU, it misses, is knocked away, or hits something else. A shield is used to block, which is a combination of being knocked away and hitting something else. The blow isn't hitting YOU, it's hitting the shield. </p><p>However, this still doesn't justify the level of avoidance strength a shield gives, as there is no reason for a shield to be any more effective as a method of avoidance than other methods. In fact, completely dodging the blow should be a much better form of avoidance, as a shield block doesn't guarantee that you don't get hurt. </p><p>However, making a complicated implementation for block, one that makes logical sense, (such as making it so u have a %chance to block, and when you do block, the shield absorbs X amount of dmg, or increases yer mit for that blow by a certain amount) could cause problems and would take extensive testing.</p><p>Anyway, the thing the devs need to acknowledge and fix is that there currently is very little distinction between an "avoidance" tank and a "plate" tank; that distinction being avoidance tanks are just lesser versions of plate tanks in leather armor.</p>

[Shankonia]

<p>I think it's evident that Brawlers tanking ability is flawed from a base mechanical level.</p><p>Fine.</p><p>Large problem overall isn't however with Brawlers imo.  It's with Monks.  Just before the Monk community made the huge push to fix our perceptually worthless beehinds, alot of the higher end bruisers were stating how they thought their class was fine and didn't need fixing.  </p><p>Didn't take long however for the two classes to get smeared back together again as one class, hence "brawler fixes/changes."</p><p>Thanks for jumping on our bandwagon Bruisers.  All we wanted some some formidable DPS/Utility to get us back in raids - or at least have a shot at getting back in raids via a simple little fix or two.</p>

[Couching]

Exactly, bruiser has several advantages over monk such as higher dps, dps buff and drag. Also, they have better aa as off tank. For example, monk gets EoF aa to reduce reuse time on single taunt but bruiser get encounter taunt. It's by far useful for off tank to get encounter taunt reuse reduction than single taunt reuse reduction. It's fine for bruiser if they are happy on their role. I respect their opinion. I think it's time for us to let Devs know that monk needs some help rather than brawler since bruiser is fine.

[Bladewind]

<cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think it's evident that Brawlers tanking ability is flawed from a base mechanical level.</p><p>Fine.</p></blockquote><p> Huh?  </p><p>It is evident that when one fighter class has both the highest mitigation and avoidance, that class will have a decisive tanking advantage over another.</p><p>That is not a problem with avoidance tanking, it is a problem with how mitigation/avoidance is balanced between different classes.  The uncontested mechanic is good in theory, but it was implemented poorly.  It makes zero sense that the mitigation tank would be able to achieve more uncontested avoidance than an avoidance tank in any situation, much less *every* situation.  And no, it is not fine.  Give brawlers a realistic value (~25%) for uncontested avodiance and the tanking mechanic problems go away.  That would be fine.</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

There's just as many Monks saying they are fine as there are Bruisers saying they are fine. And they are all completely naive or just haven't experienced it themselves because their gear makes up enough for their shortcomings. I've played alongside similarly spec'd and equipped Monks and they've either matched or beat me in parses. The only time I've beaten a Monk hands down was when the fights were in the 15s range or so, because I could get all my CA's off right off the bat but the Monk didn't have time to recast the 5 or so CAs that he'd need to catch up. However, a 15s parse means squat to actual damage output. Zonewide, the same Monks were right there with me. And variance can be attributed to the role on the raid, positioning, lag, or just plain attention being put towards it. Hell.. I've outparsed an entire raid, including 3 sorcerers and 2 summoners, but that doesn't mean anything... they were doing 500 DPS, weren't even KoS raid equipped, and weren't mastered or great players. Big deal... you have to compare equal toons and player skill to get any kind of comparitive between classes. As it stands, BOTH Brawlers have the same issues with KoS AA's. Fixing them will fix both Brawlers anyways. BOTH Brawlers have the same uncontested avoidance attached to their defensive stance, and all the issues and limits that come with it. This needs to be changed for BOTH classes. Unless all you want is some piddly trick for raid to loft around as your big 'raison d'etre' (just so you know, I've never been invited on a raid because of Drag), then you should be looking for fundamental fixes to the Brawler class as a whole so you aren't automatically handicapped in Tanking in virtually any situation short of a solo encounter. I think we can all agree though that the KoS AA's need a change to be more weapon-influencing. That helps Monks DPS along with AE Aggro control, both camps should be satisfied with such a change.

[Novusod]

The reason brawlers will never get fixed is because there is no brawler dev. All the devs favor plate heads and it is pretty much obvious from their comments at fan faire that they are more interested in protecting the plate tank then fixing the brawler. I remember when EoF first came out after they changed the avoidance/mitigation calculations that ended up favoring brawlers. All the guardians got so up in arms that the devs nerfed the brawler into irrelivance. Now here we are at fan faire 2007 with the devs directly confirming clear as crystal that they not be changing the status quo. The bottom line is brawlers will never be anything more than a solo/pvp fluff class. If you want to be a significant class on a raid the message loud and clear is re-role now.

[Nokrahs]

Group Tanking excellent (with fury/shm as a healer) / Raid tanking bad (in comparsion with other fighters). dps set gear for monks, nothing useful for tanking except heroic content (+5 deflection on Marr's...aweseome but useless vs. epics). KoS Monk Set with +CA dmg and EoF set with pretty much the same and...ohh yeah +deflection (for a raid set!). last time I checked the +deflection is actually zero vs. epics except for what you get out off the stances (16% in defstance for instance). while deflection is really cool vs. heroic content it is (for monk) pretty much useless to go that route for raids and only mitigation is valuable somehow. for Avoidance which is a value based on parry/block/deflect/def/agi... I always guessed the value itself is not exactly a matter but the stats in it such as high parry which will help more for tanking than AGI even if the total +avoidance value is the same. what I don't really understand is the way how SOE intends the gearing and the AA Spec for Monks afterall. If I look at Plate and Weapons for Plate Wearers in the game the choices are huge and usually helpful but for the Monks there are very few interesting weapons and most leather gear is focused on +dmg or group tanking. I liked the final Bonus of the WU set since it was like a 2nd area deflect but in raids, but WU's is not a Raid set and in Groups the effect is pretty much useless. Monks/Bruiser are THAT good so it's not possible to actually balance the tanking mechanics vs. epic content? sorry, I don't get that really because there are classes out there laughing about the brawler issues and are easier to play on top of that. one last thing...the EoF AA Final Skills are useless really! I don't see any help from Evade Check with its lame ~1k deagro for a non-fighter member every 20 sec. for a dps group. The Idea is fine but the deagro values need some love really... and who would use the new Master Evasion (targeted absorb) and the useless Combination (which is less dmg than a auto attack) really? While some other classes simply drown in good final AA's such as reaving in the SK EoF tree, the monks just looking at theirs scratching their foreheads. excuse the bad english but I don't use it often enough.

[Harpax]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>The reason brawlers will never get fixed is because there is no brawler dev. </blockquote> That happens to be 100% false.

[Cornbread Muffin]

<cite>Harpax wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>The reason brawlers will never get fixed is because there is no brawler dev. </blockquote> That happens to be 100% false.</blockquote> Let me guess, he plays a berserker?

[Amphibia]

I think what we need is something that would make us wanted and <b>needed</b> in raids and groups. It doesn't have to be better tanking ability, just because bruisers and monks are fighters. I honestly think we missed that boat, because people are so incredibly hung up on the idea that only platetanks can tank properly. It's been like this for years, and it would probably take a helluva lot to change that attitude now. Screw tanking. Personally, I'd much rather see brawlers DPS and utility improved.

[Wildmage]

<cite>Gasheron wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well, as an explanation to what I'm guessing is their reasoning for shields being avoidance, avoiding a blow means it doesn't hit YOU, it misses, is knocked away, or hits something else. A shield is used to block, which is a combination of being knocked away and hitting something else. The blow isn't hitting YOU, it's hitting the shield. </p><p>However, this still doesn't justify the level of avoidance strength a shield gives, as there is no reason for a shield to be any more effective as a method of avoidance than other methods. In fact, completely dodging the blow should be a much better form of avoidance, as a shield block doesn't guarantee that you don't get hurt. </p><p>However, making a complicated implementation for block, one that makes logical sense, (such as making it so u have a %chance to block, and when you do block, the shield absorbs X amount of dmg, or increases yer mit for that blow by a certain amount) could cause problems and would take extensive testing.</p><p>Anyway, the thing the devs need to acknowledge and fix is that there currently is very little distinction between an "avoidance" tank and a "plate" tank; that distinction being avoidance tanks are just lesser versions of plate tanks in leather armor.</p></blockquote>Its hitting the shield which is being held by your arm and unless your really lucky and able to slant the blow off the shield rather than taking it directly your arm is going to feel that hit.  Functionally its the same thing that armor does it absorbs some damage.

[Harpax]

Cornbread Muffin wrote: <blockquote><cite>Harpax wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>The reason brawlers will never get fixed is because there is no brawler dev. </blockquote> That happens to be 100% false.</blockquote> Let me guess, he plays a berserker?</blockquote><p> Who me?  Hell no <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=108127105" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=108127105</a> </p>

[Cornbread Muffin]

Harpax wrote: <blockquote><p>Who me?  Hell no <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=108127105" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=108127105</a> </p></blockquote><p>No, I was taking a crack at the brawler dev <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

[Harpax]

heh, no wonder it made no sense <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

If they fix Brawler avoidance against Epics, then Brawlers would be the BEST choice for giving the offtank buff. The fix doesn't necessarily have to only be for giving Brawlers a shot at being MT... it can be about making them the best class choice for giving the offtank buff. If they fixed uncontested avoidance, and fixed the AA's to scale DPS with weapons, we could bring higher DPS and the best avoidance buff for MT, along with the other general fighter additions they've put in the game. So fixing the things we are asking for WOULD give us utility, it's not just about being better MT.

[Taiken]

<p>Yeah well... You already know the devs are to stupid and dumb to do anything like that. Obviously they still have their heads caught around the idea that we are formidable tanks with such a high dps! </p><p>I believe this is the ye'old saying of.. "Please remove the stick they ye'old [Removed for Content], and pay attention to the ye'old freaking problem"</p><p>Dont get your hopes up, they never listen.. All they are good for is deleting your posts because they find somethign to offensive.. In the words of kanye west "Oooooo.. They so sensitive!"</p>

[Herme]

Sorry about hijacking the thread but something had to be said. Anyway, about monks being overpowered in a group setting.  We're more than capable of tanking any heroic content, but as has been stated previously, we're far from being the best group tanks out there.  So back on topic and discuss this some more.  Overall this has been some of the most interesting read I've had in the forums and I truly hope the devs do give us some more raid desirability. What's that saying?  Hope for the best, plan for the worst?

[Couching]

<cite>Herme wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes I admit brawlers and Monks in particular need a little loving thrown their way, but they are NOT in any way shape or form as bad off as you say.  I have looked at your gear on eq2players.com  which I believe this to be a link to: <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=241116117" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=241116117</a> If you would mind some constructive criticism... Your cloak - go down the marr diety line and get the cloak of marr, or invest some time into page harvesting and get your cloak of flames.  Currently monks don't have any damage spells and the 1 healing spell we have is on a 3 minute reuse timer so your cloak does little to nothing for you. The Dhampyre's Linksteel - nice mit, but extremely subpar stats.  Invest in the ghost wraps or get someone to run you through unrest enough to get the Wu shirt.  Much better stats on those, <b>and as an avoidance tank we don't necessarily want to sacrifice stats for raw mitigation.</b> Wu's fighting sleeves and armguards - keep until you can upgrade to relic or some higher form of fabled gear. MC gloves- grab a DPS and a healer and go trio the kaladim ring event until you get the WU's gloves, or even run PoA for the legendary leather glvoes from there. Sanguinary cinch - trade out for adjutant's belt, or run the claymore questline for the dragonbelt that gives +30 sta and some nice resists. Leggings of determined growth - run HoF until you get endbringer leggings to drop or buy them off the broker. feet are good. Weapon is nice, or if you like dual wields get closing times or the fists of pain and bashing off the broker. Ranged- try to get the bag of broken cogs from unrest Charms - battleworn canteen from unrest is nice, if not that, upgrade your agi hex doll to the treasured quest reward from the tower in the fallen dynasty quest for +15 str. Your jewelry is pretty decent and can be upgraded as you see fit.  Nice earring drops from first named at the door to acadachism.  +32 str. You can go str spec and still be a decent tank.  Strayslayer went all DPS, and could tank unrest with a solo healer and go the entire way through it in offensive if he had 2 healers.  He could also go through CMM to the sage succesfully and OTed many times in Labs and LoA raids.  Anyway, there's a tool to add to your enjoyment of the game, take it or leave, but now you have it in your arsenal to deploy as needed. -Herme </blockquote>I have several different opinions on how to gear/spec a monk. If you want to tank, mitigation is the most important factor. Especially, if you want to go through CMM or Nizara as MT with 1 healer. Damage spike is the most annoyed that you want to avoid when you are tanking. Avoidance tank? It's meaningless if you don't have enough mitigation. Any tank without 50%+ mitigation in group is the nightmare to group healer(s). If you want to go through CMM or Nizara with 1 healer, 55%+ mitigation is highly recommended. Dhampyre's Linksteel, in fact, is the 2nd best bp for dps monk. That's why most high end brawlers have one in their bags. For spec, str line sucks comparing to any 53+ damage rating weapons since we have ZERO fist skill bonus on our offensive stance. It's very important since your weapon skill dominates your hit ratio on mobs. No matter you are dpser or tank, it's very important. that's why a lot of tanks dislike to tank in defensive stance since they hit mobs less and can't hold mobs off dpsers. All in all, I will suggest any monk to prepare 2 suits, for dps and for tanking. Or even 3 suits if possible. I called the last suit as solo suit. It has highest hp, good avoidance, good mitigation and good resists. It's the balance between dps, tanking and hp. It works very well.

[Nokrahs]

my DD Set is currently a mix of WU's, Relic and other Fabled. Head : Excarnate Riksha +100 Health Adorned WU's Gloves/Shoulders/Wrist for the 2% Double Attack Bonus +all Stamina Adorned Lunatic Kama + FoB for another 5% Double Attack and adornments +5 skill (crushing) Chestplate: Relic (Crescent Moon) for the +Jaguar DMG Bonus +5 all stats Adorned Leggins : Relic (Crescent Moon) for the +Cobra DMG Bonus +Stamina Adorned Boots: Fizpitzle Boots with +divine dmg Proc (Basilisk Claw) + Stamina Adorned Neck: MoA Reward + 10dps Adornment Wrists: Yelinak's Talisman (Haste) / Bangle of the Overlord (2x +2% Parry Adorned) Waist: Belt of Dagarn +Haste Adorned Earrings : Tunare + Relic Hunters for +1% Crit +8 dps Rings : Crafted STR Rings with DPS Procs Ranged : Crafted Ammo Bag with +10dps Adorn (too bad, can't adorn the Claymore Reward Bag and Unrest Bag is only for Ammo summon) Charm: Musicbox with +5 all and 25 health/mana + the 15 STR Totem (Zan Fi) Cloak : Garanel's Mantle (Lifetap Proc) Changes for the Tank suit: Rings: Wurmscale Band / Jagged Band of the Cursed +Resists Adorned Ear: Fitzpizles Earcog / Dragonscale Earring + Resist Adorn Charm : Empowered Sleepter Totem + Musicbox Wrist : Crescent Wrist +7 Deflect and +Parry Adorn Shoulder: Excarnate Shoulders + Health Adorn Chest : Excarnate Chest or Basilisk Leather Chest +5 Stats Adorns Weapons : Marr's Fists / Fists of Bashing +5 Skill Adorns I might give the MM Chest a try on the next Raid for the additional 2% Crit which sounds not bad. AA's : WIS: 4-4-8-6-2 / INT: 4-4-7-8-2 EOF: Half Body other half in Awareness, Endskills EvadeCheck/Master's Evasion (still, even if it is pretty much useless atm) Results for my Setup : Tanking every Group Instance fine, offtanking Stuff in KoS Raids works either even on Nameds to a point as a emergency Tank. My Raidwide (total result after clearing) DPS without Group Buffs such as Dirge/Inqui/Co is about 1000-1100 and with a Dirge I parsed around 1400-1500 the other Day (KoS Raids). suggestions welcome since I always trying to improve my Char...

[BChizzle]

Only chest better than linksteel for dps is battle.

[Timaarit]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Only chest better than linksteel for dps is battle. </blockquote>Incorrect. I already showed you that relic is better than linksteel.

[Kota]

seriously, the devs don't care about us.  brawlers wouldn't be in this state of disrepair if there was ANYONE on the dev team that cared about brawlers.  plate tanks, more uncontested avoidance.  how stoopid.  soulfire gladus, more uncontested avoidance for them.  the only explanation for plate tanks having more real avoidance (base avoidance is pretty much worthless.  fact) than a monk, is that the devs honestly just don't care how lousy our class ends up.

[Traxor789]

Haha sucks, well I guess now that its known that brawlers are too good they will be replacing rangers asap. Then Guardiens pff 2 birds with one stone ftw

[EQ2Luv]

|  | |  | |  | |  |                                                      T ------> |  | |  | |  | Above is a diagram of the track this thread should be on, with T denoting our current location and the arrow our trajectory.  I'd like to ask something of those who have really crunched the numbers.  If I have 55% mitigation vs. lvl 70 mob (the value in tooltip), what is my mitigation against a level 74 mob?  What if I have 65% mitigation? My suspicion is we will find brawlers falling shorter on the mit curve than people currently realize. 

[Bladewind]

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd like to ask something of those who have really crunched the numbers.  If I have 55% mitigation vs. lvl 70 mob (the value in tooltip), what is my mitigation against a level 74 mob?  What if I have 65% mitigation? My suspicion is we will find brawlers falling shorter on the mit curve than people currently realize.  </blockquote><p> I did a little computation something like this back when diminishing returns was introduced.  I don't have the results anywhere handy, but it basically came out that a plate tank was so deep into diminishing returns that their mit was essentially the same vs a 70 and a 74 -an ~3% loss vs the 74.  On the the other hand, a brawler lost something like 7-8+% since they were not deep into diminishing returns vs a 70.  If avoidance functioned properly, brawlers ideally would enjoy a similar advantage in that department.  However, no one is anywhere near diminishing returns on avoidance thanks to the uncontested mechanic and hidden offensive bonuses given to challenging mobs.  That means brawlers lose out twice (large loss of avoidance and mit) when facing higher con mobs vs plate tanks (only large loss is avodiance).</p><p>More great news for us, eh?  Maybe we can get mobs who ignore mitigation but don't have any accuracy bonuses next expansion to turn the tables <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>