Devastation Fist Upgrade?

[Almeric_CoS]

<p>Anyone know what, if any, upgrade we're getting to Dev Fist in LU38?  There's been a statement that everyone gets one, but how do you upgrade an Insti-Kill?</p><p>Perhaps make it more accurate? (that'd be REALLY NICE) Or maybe some sort of short buff for a successful kill?</p>

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00">Percentage or scaling number damage on Heroics/Epics? I mean I wouldn't want to one-shot Naggy<i>(ok <b>YES</b> I would but I highly doubt that would happen)</i> but it would be ice for it to be marginally useful in raids just increase the stiffle time.</span>

[Harpax]

At Fan Faire Lockeye specfically called out Dev Fist as something that was going to get an upgrade and be something less of a 1 trick pony.  Not sure what he had planned though.

[Fleaba]

GAWD, I hope they do something with Devastating Fist. The only time I pull it out of the knowledge book is for duels vs. summoners or to go OHHH LOOKY AT ME!! I just one shot a no con mob..... I really, REALLY hope they made whatever they are coming up with usable vs. raid mobs. It's the only Bloodline skill that can't be used in a raid environment...

[PsyStorm]

A good use I've found for DF is using it against named mobs w/ pets.  The last guy in CoV is a good example.  He has a pet gargoyle.  I alway DF him when the fighting starts.  It may not but a huge savings to damage, but you never know.  Plus it makes me look good on the parse!! <img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Cocytus]

<p>...</p><p>Why the hell are you people complaining about something that's an instant kill to soloes?</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00">Not all solo's and there are even some solos that have a buff that stops the insta-kill part. DF does not work on vvv just vv,v,even nor on any ^,^^,^^^ nor Epics and I've run into at least a couple of Balsiks for writs that had a buff that let them survive with a sliver of health.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">BTW odd in Duels I tried it use DF and I got the Too weak comment that vvv's have. </span></p>

[Fleaba]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">BTW odd in Duels I tried it use DF and I got the Too weak comment that vvv's have. </span></p></blockquote>Trying to use it on Dumbfires or shammy pets??? Either way you're just stifling yourself for no reason. Our aoe can handle dumbfires and the shammy dogs go down in 2 auto attacks... I'm talking about the summoner pets, you don't need to worry about any of there pets in a duel to be honest, but it does add insult to injury after they spent a minute summoning them and buffing them up just so you could 2 hit them to death...

[Fleaba]

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>...</p><p>Why the hell are you people complaining about something that's an instant kill to soloes?</p></blockquote>They can keep there insta kill on solo's. The only time I kill solo's anymore is when I'm bored or farming for a new tingy for the Hurricanus fight. If your hotbars were [I cannot control my vocabulary] near filled with CA's that had "does not effect epics" in there description you'd see where we are coming from.

[Zabjade]

Fleaball@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">BTW odd in Duels I tried it use DF and I got the Too weak comment that vvv's have. </span></p></blockquote>Trying to use it on Dumbfires or shammy pets??? Either way you're just stifling yourself for no reason. Our aoe can handle dumbfires and the shammy dogs go down in 2 auto attacks... I'm talking about the summoner pets, you don't need to worry about any of there pets in a duel to be honest, but it does add insult to injury after they spent a minute summoning them and buffing them up just so you could 2 hit them to death... </blockquote> <span style="color: #00cc00">I was refering to a Guardian who was my guild leader at the time, lol, this was back when duels where first implimented</span>

[Cocytus]

<p>I see it as a skill that's really nifty, but at the same time, not overpowered. If they change this skill to something that isn't an instant kill, it's just not going to be the same. It's not going to be cool anymore.</p><p>The only thing I could offer to upgrade it would be something that makes it work on heroics and/or single ups. And that's kinda pushing it because with that, someone could just solo Unrest.</p><p>And seriously, why complain about it not working on vvv's? You can pretty much one shot those with a 5 hit combo... if not, twoshot. Basically, you kill it before it knows what's going on, heh.</p>

[Cornbread Muffin]

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I see it as a skill that's really nifty, but at the same time, overpowered. </p></blockquote> Abuh? I'm dumbfounded that anyone can find this ability overpowered.

[Zabjade]

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>And seriously, why complain about it not working on vvv's? You can pretty much one shot those with a 5 hit combo... if not, twoshot. Basically, you kill it before it knows what's going on, heh.</p></blockquote> <span style="color: #00cc00">True, but I got the same message fighting a equal leveled Guardian in a Duel.</span>

[Cocytus]

Cornbread Muffin wrote: <blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I see it as a skill that's really nifty, but at the same time, overpowered. </p></blockquote> Abuh? I'm dumbfounded that anyone can find this ability overpowered.</blockquote> I meant to say NOT overpowered >_<

[Almeric_CoS]

Any testers learn anything about this yet? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Zabjade]

<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>Brawler </b></span><ul><li><span style="font-size: medium;"><i>Devastation Fist</i> - Improved reuse speed from 5 to 3 minutes. Can now be used against all NPC opponents, but damage varies depending on the difficulty of the opponent. Self-stifle duration is now set to 10 seconds.</span></li></ul><p><span style="font-size: x-small;color: #00cc00;">Woot! looks like it will be more useful too bad my Brawler on test is too low to obtain it. </span></p>

[Almeric_CoS]

I wonder if the damage will just scale with level forever, or if it'll get some other upgrade in the 50s?

[Cocytus]

<p>4.0% damage to epics.</p><p>25% damage damage to up arrows.</p><p>100% damage to no arrows and below.</p>

[Couching]

If it is going to be true on live, I can understand why we got doomed in tanking comparing to mitigation tanks.It looks like we will be dpser rather than tank that's why we didn't get fix in tanking. As long as we get enough dps boost to real dpsers, I am fine with the change.EDIT: I am really confused. Is Devastation fist 1% or 4% on epic target? By the screen shot on the test server, both 1% and 4% shown on epic. It's contradiction.

[Cocytus]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>If it is going to be true on live, I can understand why we got doomed in tanking comparing to mitigation tanks.It looks like we will be dpser rather than tank that's why we didn't get fix in tanking. As long as we get enough dps boost to real dpsers, I am fine with the change.EDIT: I am really confused. Is Devastation fist 1% or 4% on epic target? By the screen shot on the test server, both 1% and 4% shown on epic. It's contradiction. </blockquote><p>You're right - I re-examined and it shows 1% at the bottom as well.</p><p>Whichever one it is, that is still a *load* of dps.</p>

[Kainsei]

Woot !Even if i'ts only 1% that's still a lot of damage.Used with Verdict it'll be even better.It's like a finish'him a la mortal kombat o/ . <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Geothe]

I have a feeling the 1%/4% Epic effect is something like 1% to x4s, and 4% to x2s, or something along those lines.

[Couching]

Someone has posted the test result in eq2flame bruiser forum and verified that it's 1% on epic. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />It's still a nice update. It would give us about extra 100-200 dps zonewide in a rough calculation. We will be dealing about same dps as zerker and 500-700 dps behind to real dpsers.

[Almeric_CoS]

<p>Too bad....a raid of 24 monks would have been a lot of fun <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Aeralik]

This will be changing slightly.  Rather than percentage based against epics it will just be a large direct damage attack that scales with level.  It will still be useable against epics at least but not for the numbers players are currently reporting.  The other parts you have seen will remain the same though.

[Cornbread Muffin]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>This will be changing slightly.  Rather than percentage based against epics it will just be a large direct damage attack that scales with level.  It will still be useable against epics at least but not for the numbers players are currently reporting.  The other parts you have seen will remain the same though.</blockquote>Can you fix it so that it isn't 12% harder to hit? We need some love, man...I'm not feeling the love. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[mr23sgte]

<p>Fastest Boost/Nerf ever ............................Oh well back to being useless on raids before I even had a chance to be <i><u>Slightly useful</u></i></p><p>How bout adjusting the rest of our [I cannot control my vocabulary] skills .................................... Deflection, non epic stun/stifles and general Epic uselessness. </p><p><span style="font-size: small;">Wait -<b> "large damage"</b> for a Monk is probaly about 1500 damage or less in SOE's eyes ----but we get a whopping 22% haste raidwide buff OMG WE R L33T NOW!!!! All the raid guilds are going to want Monks /sarcasm off</span></p>

[Couching]

Well, that's bull [Removed for Content]. Fine, since we can't get enough boost on dps, our role will remain as tank in raid. Please fix our tanking capability. It's really stupid.

[BChizzle]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>This will be changing slightly.  Rather than percentage based against epics it will just be a large direct damage attack that scales with level.  It will still be useable against epics at least but not for the numbers players are currently reporting.  The other parts you have seen will remain the same though.</blockquote>While I love it, the % is just way overpowered.  But please make the dmg on this high enough that it makes me feel warm in the pants, thx.

[Almeric_CoS]

<p>So glad I'm not a raider and don't have to get all worked-up about this junk all the time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Yo ho, Yo ho, the casual life for meeeeeeee....</p>

[troodon]

<cite>Almeric@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Yo ho, Yo ho, the casual life for meeeeeeee....</p></blockquote>Quoted for hilarity

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>This will be changing slightly.  Rather than percentage based against epics it will just be a large direct damage attack that scales with level.  It will still be useable against epics at least but not for the numbers players are currently reporting.  The other parts you have seen will remain the same though.</blockquote>What goes on at SoE that would cause them to change this ability within hours of putting it on test?My guess is someone's zerker buddy called in to complain.... They really can't give us anything that a warrior doesn't get eh?  We used to have tsunami as a unique talent but now they've got dragoon's reflexes. We used to have a large haste advantage but now they have acceleration strike.  Really, it's not like anyone was actually going to go raiding with 18 monks just to make it easier to finish off the vamps in MMIS or something....

[mellowknees72]

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>This will be changing slightly.  Rather than percentage based against epics it will just be a large direct damage attack that scales with level.  It will still be useable against epics at least but not for the numbers players are currently reporting.  The other parts you have seen will remain the same though.</blockquote>What goes on at SoE that would cause them to change this ability within hours of putting it on test?My guess is someone's zerker buddy called in to complain.... They really can't give us anything that a warrior doesn't get eh?  We used to have tsunami as a unique talent but now they've got dragoon's reflexes. We used to have a large haste advantage but now they have acceleration strike.  Really, it's not like anyone was actually going to go raiding with 18 monks just to make it easier to finish off the vamps in MMIS or something....</blockquote>Okay, a raid of 18 monks...now THAT'S a raid I would actually like to go on. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Couching]

1% on epic every 3 minutes is not overpowered.Most epic named including trash are about 1000k to 4000k. In other word, it's 55 dps to 222 dps boost depending on targets for brawler. The zonewide dps boost will be around 100-150 dps.We will finally be on par with zerker zone wide dps with new update. What's wrong with it?I am really disappointed with the fast nerf on DF.

[BChizzle]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>1% on epic every 3 minutes is not overpowered.Most epic named including trash are about 1000k to 4000k. In other word, it's 55 dps to 222 dps boost depending on targets for brawler. The zonewide dps boost will be around 100-150 dps.We will finally be on par with zerker zone wide dps with new update. What's wrong with it?I am really disappointed with the fast nerf on DF.</blockquote>Our zerker is no where near my dps when we are grouped with the same buffs.  I did get beat by a pali the other day tho <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Couching]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>1% on epic every 3 minutes is not overpowered.Most epic named including trash are about 1000k to 4000k. In other word, it's 55 dps to 222 dps boost depending on targets for brawler. The zonewide dps boost will be around 100-150 dps.We will finally be on par with zerker zone wide dps with new update. What's wrong with it?I am really disappointed with the fast nerf on DF.</blockquote>Our zerker is no where near my dps when we are grouped with the same buffs.  I did get beat by a pali the other day tho <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>How? It's easy for well geared zerker to hit 2k-2.2k zone wide dps. Not to say, zerker usually has better chance to group with dirge since zerker is always as OT over monk. In one case that zerker did less dps than a monk is in a buff less group. Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense that a zerker did less dps than a monk in the same grou in raid.PS: Of course, both monk and zerekr are with equal gear.

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>1% on epic every 3 minutes is not overpowered.Most epic named including trash are about 1000k to 4000k. In other word, it's 55 dps to 222 dps boost depending on targets for brawler. The zonewide dps boost will be around 100-150 dps.We will finally be on par with zerker zone wide dps with new update. What's wrong with it?I am really disappointed with the fast nerf on DF.</blockquote>Our zerker is no where near my dps when we are grouped with the same buffs.  I did get beat by a pali the other day tho <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>Are they fully dps specc'd? There's no reason they should lose if they have reasonable gear and the right AAs.  Our zerker usually did 2-2.5k ZW. 

[BChizzle]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>1% on epic every 3 minutes is not overpowered.Most epic named including trash are about 1000k to 4000k. In other word, it's 55 dps to 222 dps boost depending on targets for brawler. The zonewide dps boost will be around 100-150 dps.We will finally be on par with zerker zone wide dps with new update. What's wrong with it?I am really disappointed with the fast nerf on DF.</blockquote>Our zerker is no where near my dps when we are grouped with the same buffs.  I did get beat by a pali the other day tho <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></blockquote>How? It's easy for well geared zerker to hit 2k-2.2k zone wide dps. Not to say, zerker usually has better chance to group with dirge since zerker is always as OT over monk. In one case that zerker did less dps than a monk is in a buff less group. Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense that a zerker did less dps than a monk in the same grou in raid.PS: Of course, both monk and zerekr are with equal gear.</blockquote>In the same group with the same buffs I beat him every time.  His gear is pretty maxed and we aren't talking kos raids here.

[Couching]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>1% on epic every 3 minutes is not overpowered.Most epic named including trash are about 1000k to 4000k. In other word, it's 55 dps to 222 dps boost depending on targets for brawler. The zonewide dps boost will be around 100-150 dps.We will finally be on par with zerker zone wide dps with new update. What's wrong with it?I am really disappointed with the fast nerf on DF.</blockquote>Our zerker is no where near my dps when we are grouped with the same buffs.  I did get beat by a pali the other day tho <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></blockquote>How? It's easy for well geared zerker to hit 2k-2.2k zone wide dps. Not to say, zerker usually has better chance to group with dirge since zerker is always as OT over monk. In one case that zerker did less dps than a monk is in a buff less group. Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense that a zerker did less dps than a monk in the same grou in raid.PS: Of course, both monk and zerekr are with equal gear.</blockquote>In the same group with the same buffs I beat him every time.  His gear is pretty maxed and we aren't talking kos raids here.</blockquote>Of course not, actually, in KoS, zerker did even more dps than in EoF since mobs have less hp and die faster. It looks like your zerker did poor dps. I would say skill problem. You can check zerker forum and you will see it's not something new for zerker to hit 2k-2.5k zone wide dps in EoF raids.Your personal experience just shows the zerker in your guild has something wrong if he can't hit 2k+ dps ZW.

[BChizzle]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>1% on epic every 3 minutes is not overpowered.Most epic named including trash are about 1000k to 4000k. In other word, it's 55 dps to 222 dps boost depending on targets for brawler. The zonewide dps boost will be around 100-150 dps.We will finally be on par with zerker zone wide dps with new update. What's wrong with it?I am really disappointed with the fast nerf on DF.</blockquote>Our zerker is no where near my dps when we are grouped with the same buffs.  I did get beat by a pali the other day tho <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></blockquote>How? It's easy for well geared zerker to hit 2k-2.2k zone wide dps. Not to say, zerker usually has better chance to group with dirge since zerker is always as OT over monk. In one case that zerker did less dps than a monk is in a buff less group. Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense that a zerker did less dps than a monk in the same grou in raid.PS: Of course, both monk and zerekr are with equal gear.</blockquote>In the same group with the same buffs I beat him every time.  His gear is pretty maxed and we aren't talking kos raids here.</blockquote>Of course not, actually, in KoS, zerker did even more dps than in EoF since mobs have less hp and die faster. It looks like your zerker did poor dps. I would say skill problem. You can check zerker forum and you will see it's not something new for zerker to hit 2k-2.5k zone wide dps in EoF raids.Your personal experience just shows the zerker in your guild has something wrong if he can't hit 2k+ dps ZW.</blockquote>Was your zerker tanking?  Do you take long breaks in between your pulls?

[mr23sgte]

<span style="font-size: xx-large;">This skill was clearly overpowered with 1% damage to Epics only b/c it wasn't a Warrior CA ...then it woulda been fine.</span>

[Couching]

For zerker ZW dps, you can check this link:<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/berserkers/8238-zerker-parses.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/berserkers...ker-parses.html</a>Well geared and skilled zerker can hit 2k+ ZW no matter he is tanking or not.I would like to know any monk did 2k+ ZW as MT or OT.

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>For zerker ZW dps, you can check this link:<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/berserkers/8238-zerker-parses.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/berserkers...ker-parses.html</a>Well geared and skilled zerker can hit 2k+ ZW no matter he is tanking or not.I would like to know any monk did 2k+ ZW as MT or OT.</blockquote>And I would assume that Couching means in EoF, not KoS. 

[Amphibia]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>This will be changing slightly.  Rather than percentage based against epics it will just be a large direct damage attack that scales with level.  It will still be useable against epics at least but not for the numbers players are currently reporting.  The other parts you have seen will remain the same though.</blockquote><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[BChizzle]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>For zerker ZW dps, you can check this link:<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/berserkers/8238-zerker-parses.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/berserkers...ker-parses.html</a>Well geared and skilled zerker can hit 2k+ ZW no matter he is tanking or not.I would like to know any monk did 2k+ ZW as MT or OT.</blockquote>Actually that didn't show anything.  It has a SD guy on the all outgoing tab which is useless and another MTing a zone where he had the added bonus of ripostes and dmg shield hits.

[Couching]

Still, do you or other monk did 2k+ ZW whiling tanking? /shrugTake it or not, zerker did 2k+ ZW in raid. Of course, they may get extra dps from damage shield whiling tanking. However, they also LOSE damage while tanking since extra attacks will be riposte or parry by mobs as well.It's a common sense that your hit ratio will drop while tanking or attack in front of mobs.

[Amphibia]

I still think we need more DPS.... 

[tt66]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>This will be changing slightly.  Rather than percentage based against epics it will just be a large direct damage attack that scales with level.  It will still be useable against epics at least but not for the numbers players are currently reporting.  The other parts you have seen will remain the same though.</blockquote>Well that's just mean.So what was it? Was it because of other classes complaining, or because nobody at your end figured out that 1% of an epic's health was quite a lot?This was a reason to bring brawlers on raids! Don't just take it away like that! Say it can only be used when the mob is at 25% health or less! Or if it would result in an instant kill (ie 1% for epic x4s!) Or make the "cannot be dev fisted again" buff last for a longer period of time, or until the encounter is broken.There is so much you can do here to make brawlers truly valued on a raid, with a truly class defining trait. (As opposed to the duel-wielder who wears leather). Don't just take that away.

[BChizzle]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Still, do you or other monk did 2k+ ZW whiling tanking? /shrugTake it or not, zerker did 2k+ ZW in raid. Of course, they may get extra dps from damage shield whiling tanking. However, they also LOSE damage while tanking since extra attacks will be riposte or parry by mobs as well.It's a common sense that your hit ratio will drop while tanking or attack in front of mobs. </blockquote>Monks don't tank.  But if I were to MT in MMIS it would be easily over 2k.

[Amphibia]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>This will be changing slightly.  Rather than percentage based against epics it will just be a large direct damage attack that scales with level.  It will still be useable against epics at least but not for the numbers players are currently reporting.  The other parts you have seen will remain the same though.</blockquote>Well that's just mean.So what was it? Was it because of other classes complaining, or because nobody at your end figured out that 1% of an epic's health was quite a lot?This was a reason to bring brawlers on raids! Don't just take it away like that! Say it can only be used when the mob is at 25% health or less! Or if it would result in an instant kill (ie 1% for epic x4s!) Or make the "cannot be dev fisted again" buff last for a longer period of time, or until the encounter is broken.There is so much you can do here to make brawlers truly valued on a raid, with a truly class defining trait. (As opposed to the duel-wielder who wears leather). Don't just take that away.</blockquote>I think they're planning to just take it away. Just like that. Hehe <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Well, it was at least fun for those few hours before it got nerfed, when we got our hopes up that maybe, just maybe we would finally become a desirable class for raiding.... oh well.

[Couching]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Still, do you or other monk did 2k+ ZW whiling tanking? /shrugTake it or not, zerker did 2k+ ZW in raid. Of course, they may get extra dps from damage shield whiling tanking. However, they also LOSE damage while tanking since extra attacks will be riposte or parry by mobs as well.It's a common sense that your hit ratio will drop while tanking or attack in front of mobs. </blockquote>Monks don't tank.  But if I were to MT in MMIS it would be easily over 2k.</blockquote>Posting before you really did it. Otherwise, it's meaningless.

[BChizzle]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Still, do you or other monk did 2k+ ZW whiling tanking? /shrugTake it or not, zerker did 2k+ ZW in raid. Of course, they may get extra dps from damage shield whiling tanking. However, they also LOSE damage while tanking since extra attacks will be riposte or parry by mobs as well.It's a common sense that your hit ratio will drop while tanking or attack in front of mobs. </blockquote>Monks don't tank.  But if I were to MT in MMIS it would be easily over 2k.</blockquote>Posting before you really did it. Otherwise, it's meaningless.</blockquote>U are kidding right?  If I tried to convince my guild to let me MT the night would be wasted before they even stopped laughing.

[Couching]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Still, do you or other monk did 2k+ ZW whiling tanking? /shrugTake it or not, zerker did 2k+ ZW in raid. Of course, they may get extra dps from damage shield whiling tanking. However, they also LOSE damage while tanking since extra attacks will be riposte or parry by mobs as well.It's a common sense that your hit ratio will drop while tanking or attack in front of mobs. </blockquote>Monks don't tank.  But if I were to MT in MMIS it would be easily over 2k.</blockquote>Posting before you really did it. Otherwise, it's meaningless.</blockquote>U are kidding right?  If I tried to convince my guild to let me MT the night would be wasted before they even stopped laughing.</blockquote>Then how could you make the statement that you can deal 2k+ ZW in MMIS while tanking as zerker?I have been MMIS as off tanking. I can assure you that i did less dps than pure dpsing. Even I have my dps suit on while off tanking, I still did less dps since I have to fight in front of mobs. The damage shield dps is laughable comparing to auto attack or CAs I lost by parry, riposte, etc from Mobs.Not to say, zerker did 2.2k in MMIS as off tank. It means his ZW is at least 2.5k-3k exclude mayong's fight.

[BChizzle]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Still, do you or other monk did 2k+ ZW whiling tanking? /shrugTake it or not, zerker did 2k+ ZW in raid. Of course, they may get extra dps from damage shield whiling tanking. However, they also LOSE damage while tanking since extra attacks will be riposte or parry by mobs as well.It's a common sense that your hit ratio will drop while tanking or attack in front of mobs. </blockquote>Monks don't tank.  But if I were to MT in MMIS it would be easily over 2k.</blockquote>Posting before you really did it. Otherwise, it's meaningless.</blockquote>U are kidding right?  If I tried to convince my guild to let me MT the night would be wasted before they even stopped laughing.</blockquote>Then how could you make the statement that you can deal 2k+ ZW in MMIS while tanking as zerker?I have been MMIS as off tanking. I can assure you that i did less dps than pure dpsing. Even I have my dps suit on while off tanking, I still did less dps since I have to fight in front of mobs. The damage shield dps is laughable comparing to auto attack or CAs I lost by parry, riposte, etc from Mobs.Not to say, zerker did 2.2k in MMIS as off tank. It means his ZW is at least 2.5k-3k exclude mayong's fight.</blockquote>What exactly do you need to off tank in MMIS?  Please explain why for any fight but the adds on Mayong you wouldn't just use 1 MT holding agro on everything?  Maybe at most the group named fight thats about all I can think of.  Do you pull adds lol?  I understand the charm guys but everyone is tanking those fights including some always too happy mages and scouts.  Also the 2.2 zerker was showing the wrong ACT panel for DPS.  Maybe you are just looking at the wrong numbers.

[Couching]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Still, do you or other monk did 2k+ ZW whiling tanking? /shrugTake it or not, zerker did 2k+ ZW in raid. Of course, they may get extra dps from damage shield whiling tanking. However, they also LOSE damage while tanking since extra attacks will be riposte or parry by mobs as well.It's a common sense that your hit ratio will drop while tanking or attack in front of mobs. </blockquote>Monks don't tank.  But if I were to MT in MMIS it would be easily over 2k.</blockquote>Posting before you really did it. Otherwise, it's meaningless.</blockquote>U are kidding right?  If I tried to convince my guild to let me MT the night would be wasted before they even stopped laughing.</blockquote>Then how could you make the statement that you can deal 2k+ ZW in MMIS while tanking as zerker?I have been MMIS as off tanking. I can assure you that i did less dps than pure dpsing. Even I have my dps suit on while off tanking, I still did less dps since I have to fight in front of mobs. The damage shield dps is laughable comparing to auto attack or CAs I lost by parry, riposte, etc from Mobs.Not to say, zerker did 2.2k in MMIS as off tank. It means his ZW is at least 2.5k-3k exclude mayong's fight.</blockquote>What exactly do you need to off tank in MMIS?  Please explain why for any fight but the adds on Mayong you wouldn't just use 1 MT holding agro on everything?  Maybe at most the group named fight thats about all I can think of.  Do you pull adds lol?  I understand the charm guys but everyone is tanking those fights including some always too happy mages and scouts.  Also the 2.2 zerker was showing the wrong ACT panel for DPS.  Maybe you are just looking at the wrong numbers.</blockquote>You are making contradiction by yourself. First, you said that zerker was off tanking in MMIS so that he has higher dps. Then you said there is nothing to off tank. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />In fact, usually i have to off tank charm guys since MT will get charmed. It makes life much easier for dpsers if off tank can step in on time. Also, sometimes, I have to off tank colossus if needed. Sometimes, our mages are crazy that they did 3.5k-4k+ dps on the pair of colossus. To max aoe dps, we usually have MT and OT tanking different colossus at same time. Again, by parsing, I did less dps while tanking than pure dpsing from back of mobs.

[Nokrahs]

1% to epics would be fine and at least something semi-valuable since it can still miss the target and acooldown of 3 Mins along with 10 sec stiffle are in it.another ~1k hit with the effects above isn't exactly a boost really.

[BChizzle]

<cite>Nokrahs wrote:</cite><blockquote>1% to epics would be fine and at least something semi-valuable since it can still miss the target and acooldown of 3 Mins along with 10 sec stiffle are in it.another ~1k hit with the effects above isn't exactly a boost really.</blockquote>Contested MayongAllies: (00:01) 68787 dpsBchizzle 68787 (0) LOLz way overpowered

[BChizzle]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Still, do you or other monk did 2k+ ZW whiling tanking? /shrugTake it or not, zerker did 2k+ ZW in raid. Of course, they may get extra dps from damage shield whiling tanking. However, they also LOSE damage while tanking since extra attacks will be riposte or parry by mobs as well.It's a common sense that your hit ratio will drop while tanking or attack in front of mobs. </blockquote>Monks don't tank.  But if I were to MT in MMIS it would be easily over 2k.</blockquote>Posting before you really did it. Otherwise, it's meaningless.</blockquote>U are kidding right?  If I tried to convince my guild to let me MT the night would be wasted before they even stopped laughing.</blockquote>Then how could you make the statement that you can deal 2k+ ZW in MMIS while tanking as zerker?I have been MMIS as off tanking. I can assure you that i did less dps than pure dpsing. Even I have my dps suit on while off tanking, I still did less dps since I have to fight in front of mobs. The damage shield dps is laughable comparing to auto attack or CAs I lost by parry, riposte, etc from Mobs.Not to say, zerker did 2.2k in MMIS as off tank. It means his ZW is at least 2.5k-3k exclude mayong's fight.</blockquote>What exactly do you need to off tank in MMIS?  Please explain why for any fight but the adds on Mayong you wouldn't just use 1 MT holding agro on everything?  Maybe at most the group named fight thats about all I can think of.  Do you pull adds lol?  I understand the charm guys but everyone is tanking those fights including some always too happy mages and scouts.  Also the 2.2 zerker was showing the wrong ACT panel for DPS.  Maybe you are just looking at the wrong numbers.</blockquote>You are making contradiction by yourself. First, you said that zerker was off tanking in MMIS so that he has higher dps. Then you said there is nothing to off tank. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />In fact, usually i have to off tank charm guys since MT will get charmed. It makes life much easier for dpsers if off tank can step in on time. Also, sometimes, I have to off tank colossus if needed. Sometimes, our mages are crazy that they did 3.5k-4k+ dps on the pair of colossus. To max aoe dps, we usually have MT and OT tanking different colossus at same time. Again, by parsing, I did less dps while tanking than pure dpsing from back of mobs. </blockquote>The zerker said he MT'ed the whole zone except mayong.  Go ask zerkers if they parse higher while MTing then come back.

[Ramius613]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nokrahs wrote:</cite><blockquote>1% to epics would be fine and at least something semi-valuable since it can still miss the target and acooldown of 3 Mins along with 10 sec stiffle are in it.another ~1k hit with the effects above isn't exactly a boost really.</blockquote>Contested MayongAllies: (00:01) 68787 dpsBchizzle 68787 (0) LOLz way overpowered</blockquote><p>Yes I agree that it is overpowered.  However, I looked at it on test with my monk, and The subject will be immune to another DF for 30 sec.  So when this change goes into effect, it better be worth it, ie between 10-20k at max lvl.</p>

[Couching]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Still, do you or other monk did 2k+ ZW whiling tanking? /shrugTake it or not, zerker did 2k+ ZW in raid. Of course, they may get extra dps from damage shield whiling tanking. However, they also LOSE damage while tanking since extra attacks will be riposte or parry by mobs as well.It's a common sense that your hit ratio will drop while tanking or attack in front of mobs. </blockquote>Monks don't tank.  But if I were to MT in MMIS it would be easily over 2k.</blockquote>Posting before you really did it. Otherwise, it's meaningless.</blockquote>U are kidding right?  If I tried to convince my guild to let me MT the night would be wasted before they even stopped laughing.</blockquote>Then how could you make the statement that you can deal 2k+ ZW in MMIS while tanking as zerker?I have been MMIS as off tanking. I can assure you that i did less dps than pure dpsing. Even I have my dps suit on while off tanking, I still did less dps since I have to fight in front of mobs. The damage shield dps is laughable comparing to auto attack or CAs I lost by parry, riposte, etc from Mobs.Not to say, zerker did 2.2k in MMIS as off tank. It means his ZW is at least 2.5k-3k exclude mayong's fight.</blockquote>What exactly do you need to off tank in MMIS?  Please explain why for any fight but the adds on Mayong you wouldn't just use 1 MT holding agro on everything?  Maybe at most the group named fight thats about all I can think of.  Do you pull adds lol?  I understand the charm guys but everyone is tanking those fights including some always too happy mages and scouts.  Also the 2.2 zerker was showing the wrong ACT panel for DPS.  Maybe you are just looking at the wrong numbers.</blockquote>You are making contradiction by yourself. First, you said that zerker was off tanking in MMIS so that he has higher dps. Then you said there is nothing to off tank. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />In fact, usually i have to off tank charm guys since MT will get charmed. It makes life much easier for dpsers if off tank can step in on time. Also, sometimes, I have to off tank colossus if needed. Sometimes, our mages are crazy that they did 3.5k-4k+ dps on the pair of colossus. To max aoe dps, we usually have MT and OT tanking different colossus at same time. Again, by parsing, I did less dps while tanking than pure dpsing from back of mobs. </blockquote>The zerker said he MT'ed the whole zone except mayong.  Go ask zerkers if they parse higher while MTing then come back.</blockquote>You should read it again. The guy you mentioned did 2160 ZW rather than 2.2k ZW. Another zerker reported 2.2k as OT not MT.  Not to say, no matter zerker is OT or MT, they did 2k+ ZW. Only few cases that zerker didn't need to off tank in EoF raid. So what's your point? People invited zerker in high end raid and didn't let them tank? Or your guild zerker didn't tank in Eof raid so that he did less damage than you did?

[Hydor]

<p>For once let's not complain before we see the change. I tested it myself and it's not that great.</p><p>Doing 70k against contested Mayong is just too much, but doing 4k-7k every 3 minutes vs trash is probably too little. I hope for once that whatever change is applied will be rational and to our benefit. You can't expect to have a 65k-70k damage button as a fighter. So 1% is too much in some very few cases. However if they make it do a say fixed 10k damage that would be 3.5% vs labs trash 1.5% vs EH trash. I really expect it to be better than it is after it's changed. If it's fixed to 4k-5k we can start complaining. But not yet, I believe they have something good in mind. I HOPE I am right <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[MadBarman]

Why can't we have a button that does 65-70k damage as a fighter? Usable every 3 minutes, not guaranteed to hit and we get stifled.Don't Inquisitors get a skill that does that? Kills an epic with 1% health left I think.If it really is too much because it can be used more than once on a target just make it like the rogue(?) pickpocket and can only be used once per target.Will have to wait to see how much the fixed amount of damage will be, but I don't see whats wrong with 1% health for an epic.

[tt66]

<cite>Ramius613 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nokrahs wrote:</cite><blockquote>1% to epics would be fine and at least something semi-valuable since it can still miss the target and acooldown of 3 Mins along with 10 sec stiffle are in it.another ~1k hit with the effects above isn't exactly a boost really.</blockquote>Contested MayongAllies: (00:01) 68787 dpsBchizzle 68787 (0) LOLz way overpowered</blockquote><p>Yes I agree that it is overpowered.  However, I looked at it on test with my monk, and The subject will be immune to another DF for 30 sec.  So when this change goes into effect, it better be worth it, ie between 10-20k at max lvl.</p></blockquote>Overpowered? Really?This is the absolute best case scenario. And although Bchizzle has done a crapload of damage, he now has to hide from Mayong for the rest of the fight <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> With a 30 second DF Immunity, this is adding a grand total of 2k dps to the raid. Which is not exactly chickenfeed, but what sort of dps are you going to be doing to make going after Mayong a sensible idea anyway?As far as the individual brawler goes, assuming he can avoid grabbing aggro and dying, with a 3 min cooldown this had added 380 dps.380 dps. Minus whatever dps you lose after being stifled for 10 seconds. Yes, that's a big number, but that is presumably a fully fabled dps-specc'd brawler one of the top raiding guilds.And that is absolutely best-case scenario. Most of us will never, ever be in a position to do this. Ever.Hell, if they'd left it as a 5 min cooldown it would be a bonus of 230dps!!Brawlers need a reason to be in a raid. This could have been it.Plus, c'mon now. Imagine the hilarity when you miss with the [Removed for Content] thing! The best part of Dev Fist was always when the cocky Bruiser goes"Hey guys!! Watch this!!!! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />"<i>*fizzle*</i><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Anjin]

<p>You need to bear in mind not only the actual Dev fist hit dmg, but also the reduced dps for the stifle period afterwards.  If the stifle period is 10 secs and my DPS is reduced by 800 because I'm stifled, the Dev fist must do >8k dmg to even be worthwhile to overall dps.  Also, with a miss, you are still stifled so unless there is potential to do decent damage, it's just not worth the gamble of using it.</p><p>Considering raids are fighting epic mobs 4-5 lvls above them, I'd imagine the hit chance will be tiny considering how often I personally miss on > 70 non heroic mobs.</p><p>I guess fundamentally, if there is still a reasonable chance to miss it's not going to be a lot of use because it's not really dependable.</p><p>A few ideas below if it's not going to be % based:</p><ul><li>Hit/Miss chance based on normal melee hit/miss chance - i.e. crushing skill vs mob lvl.</li><li>Crit chance based on Melee crit chance.</li><li>If the stifle cannot currently be cured, make it cureable so it can be used as a means for a brawler tanks/OT's to regain aggro.</li><li>Make it so that if you hit from infront of the mob, it includes a threat enhancer (because they see you doing it) and from behind a threat diminisher (because they assume that it must be a predator, not a brawler hitting them that hard!) - similar to The Dagger of Purity in ToNT.</li><li>If the dmg is going to be erring on the low side, slap in a great debuff for the duration of the stifle.  The brawler might not be able to take advantage of it, but it would be of benefit to the raid.</li></ul><p>At the moment it's basically a fluff spell.</p>

[Hydor]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ramius613 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nokrahs wrote:</cite><blockquote>1% to epics would be fine and at least something semi-valuable since it can still miss the target and acooldown of 3 Mins along with 10 sec stiffle are in it.another ~1k hit with the effects above isn't exactly a boost really.</blockquote>Contested MayongAllies: (00:01) 68787 dpsBchizzle 68787 (0) LOLz way overpowered</blockquote><p>Yes I agree that it is overpowered.  However, I looked at it on test with my monk, and The subject will be immune to another DF for 30 sec.  So when this change goes into effect, it better be worth it, ie between 10-20k at max lvl.</p></blockquote>Overpowered? Really?This is the absolute best case scenario. And although Bchizzle has done a crapload of damage, he now has to hide from Mayong for the rest of the fight <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />"> With a 30 second DF Immunity, this is adding a grand total of 2k dps to the raid. Which is not exactly chickenfeed, but what sort of dps are you going to be doing to make going after Mayong a sensible idea anyway?As far as the individual brawler goes, assuming he can avoid grabbing aggro and dying, with a 3 min cooldown this had added 380 dps.380 dps. Minus whatever dps you lose after being stifled for 10 seconds. Yes, that's a big number, but that is presumably a fully fabled dps-specc'd brawler one of the top raiding guilds.And that is absolutely best-case scenario. Most of us will never, ever be in a position to do this. Ever.Hell, if they'd left it as a 5 min cooldown it would be a bonus of 230dps!!Brawlers need a reason to be in a raid. This could have been it.Plus, c'mon now. Imagine the hilarity when you miss with the [I cannot control my vocabulary] thing! The best part of Dev Fist was always when the cocky Bruiser goes"Hey guys!! Watch this!!!! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />"<i>*fizzle*</i><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>1% to epics is general is CRAP! Maybe the change will come because 65k damage is at the Manaburn realm. That's best case senario as you said. But who would be happy if they left it that way and you were hitting for 4k-8k? I was dissapointed when I tried it on labs trash to do a 3.700 or something like that damage. And when I tried it on EH trash for about 7.500 damage I wasn't that excited either.</p><p>All I am saying is wait to see what's coming. We may express our concerns but we cannot consider it as crap or nerfed before we see what it does. To be honest when I tried it on trash I felt like... well, it's better than nothing. 1% is simply not good enough IN MOST CASES. And it's too good in SOME cases. Say they fix it to do 4% of max health with a max limit of 20k. Would that be a nerf? Or even worse give it a fixed 10k value. Still better than 1% in most cases. I wouldn't expect to see a fixed value of less than 10k tbh. I believe they had in mind that it could do that much when they decided to give it the 1% value.</p><p>Let's just wait and see, I have a good feeling about this one <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Siatfallen]

In order to deal with the stifled time, I would suggest the following:Make sure all your damage CAs except the ones mentioned below are on reuse (unless you are AGI-specced, they should be so for five-six seconds I guess). Now chain in your Crane Flock, Outward Calm (instant cast), Tsunami and then Dev. Fist.- All in all, you are stifled for 12 seconds. In that time, you are double/multiattacking anyway, and doing nothing else prevents interruptions of that. At the same time, you are protected reasonably well against whatever the mob throws at you. And if, for some reason, you do take aggro and the tank does not steal aggro back from you after 10 seconds... FD as stifle goes down. Tsunami/Outward Calm should hold just long enough. Incidentally, Crane Flock, Tsunami and Devastation Fist will all be on a 3 minute reuse timer. Any flaws to this, except that dev. fist's damage may be nerfed to the point where Tsunami/Outward Calm just isn't relevant to prevent getting splatted?

[Agaxiq]

<cite>Anjin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Also, with a miss, you are still stifled so unless there is potential to do decent damage, it's just not worth the gamble of using it.</p></blockquote>If Devastation Fist misses, you certainly are NOT stifled, unless they just changed that.  The only bad thing is that you have to wait 5 minutes (soon to be 3) to try it again.agressiv

[shaolen]

Personally I dont think the 1% is overpowered.  Like others have said our chance to hit % on higher level epics is not that high, so there is no garuntee that it will hit at all.  And if it does we are stifled for a time so miss out on CA damage during that time.  If they do make the change so its a set amount of damage vs 1%, the damage should be way higher than 4-5k.   To be honest monks can get a 4-5k using a good 2H fabled weapon, so that type of damage isnit really that "devastating".  To be something truly "devastating" it should be like 50K+.  Imagine hooking up with a Troub and getting Jesters Cap, now that would be some nice DPS.  

[BChizzle]

<cite>Anjin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You need to bear in mind not only the actual Dev fist hit dmg, but also the reduced dps for the stifle period afterwards.  If the stifle period is 10 secs and my DPS is reduced by 800 because I'm stifled, the Dev fist must do >8k dmg to even be worthwhile to overall dps.  Also, with a miss, you are still stifled so unless there is potential to do decent damage, it's just not worth the gamble of using it.</p><p>Considering raids are fighting epic mobs 4-5 lvls above them, I'd imagine the hit chance will be tiny considering how often I personally miss on > 70 non heroic mobs.</p><p>I guess fundamentally, if there is still a reasonable chance to miss it's not going to be a lot of use because it's not really dependable.</p><p>A few ideas below if it's not going to be % based:</p><ul><li>Hit/Miss chance based on normal melee hit/miss chance - i.e. crushing skill vs mob lvl.</li><li>Crit chance based on Melee crit chance.</li><li>If the stifle cannot currently be cured, make it cureable so it can be used as a means for a brawler tanks/OT's to regain aggro.</li><li>Make it so that if you hit from infront of the mob, it includes a threat enhancer (because they see you doing it) and from behind a threat diminisher (because they assume that it must be a predator, not a brawler hitting them that hard!) - similar to The Dagger of Purity in ToNT.</li><li>If the dmg is going to be erring on the low side, slap in a great debuff for the duration of the stifle.  The brawler might not be able to take advantage of it, but it would be of benefit to the raid.</li></ul><p>At the moment it's basically a fluff spell.</p></blockquote>Running with 2 brawlers JC you'd be doing this twice every 2 mins.  It would be way overpowered.  Yes its just one mob but remember we have an expansion coming out and there will be more mayong scenarios.

[BChizzle]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>You should read it again. The guy you mentioned did 2160 ZW rather than 2.2k ZW. Another zerker reported 2.2k as OT not MT.  Not to say, no matter zerker is OT or MT, they did 2k+ ZW. Only few cases that zerker didn't need to off tank in EoF raid. So what's your point? People invited zerker in high end raid and didn't let them tank? Or your guild zerker didn't tank in Eof raid so that he did less damage than you did?</blockquote>Read it again the one who was OTing used the wrong panel in ACT.  The one who used the right panel had the right #'s and yes a zerker in a raid not tanking is still great because of the berserk buff he has is awesome for melees.

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anjin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You need to bear in mind not only the actual Dev fist hit dmg, but also the reduced dps for the stifle period afterwards.  If the stifle period is 10 secs and my DPS is reduced by 800 because I'm stifled, the Dev fist must do >8k dmg to even be worthwhile to overall dps.  Also, with a miss, you are still stifled so unless there is potential to do decent damage, it's just not worth the gamble of using it.</p><p>Considering raids are fighting epic mobs 4-5 lvls above them, I'd imagine the hit chance will be tiny considering how often I personally miss on > 70 non heroic mobs.</p><p>I guess fundamentally, if there is still a reasonable chance to miss it's not going to be a lot of use because it's not really dependable.</p><p>A few ideas below if it's not going to be % based:</p><ul><li>Hit/Miss chance based on normal melee hit/miss chance - i.e. crushing skill vs mob lvl.</li><li>Crit chance based on Melee crit chance.</li><li>If the stifle cannot currently be cured, make it cureable so it can be used as a means for a brawler tanks/OT's to regain aggro.</li><li>Make it so that if you hit from infront of the mob, it includes a threat enhancer (because they see you doing it) and from behind a threat diminisher (because they assume that it must be a predator, not a brawler hitting them that hard!) - similar to The Dagger of Purity in ToNT.</li><li>If the dmg is going to be erring on the low side, slap in a great debuff for the duration of the stifle.  The brawler might not be able to take advantage of it, but it would be of benefit to the raid.</li></ul><p>At the moment it's basically a fluff spell.</p></blockquote>Running with 2 brawlers JC you'd be doing this twice every 2 mins.  It would be way overpowered.  Yes its just one mob but remember we have an expansion coming out and there will be more mayong scenarios.</blockquote>Twice per 2 minutes so once per minute on average.  That's 1% of his health per minute so if its a 10 minute fight then it reduced his HP by 10%.  Is that really so overpowered to take 10% of a mobs health over the course of 10 minutes?  There'd still be 90% more to deal with....To say something is overpowered because it does a lot of damage on a few mobs is poor reasoning. Most mobs dont have mayong's HP, and on mobs like mayong, it might be a lot of damage, but it's still only 1%.  One percent.  An inquisitor will do 130,000 dmg to mayong with one spell cast.  Should we nerf them too?  Parses aren't everything.  Being able to do a lot of damage on a few mobs doesn't mean you should nerf the skill.  It's not like we could do that much damage on every mob. We wouldn't be having Lifeburn type damage on every mob, just a few really big ones, and it would still take a lot more than just the dev fist to kill those mobs.  I don't think something can be called overpowered unless it changes the game substantially. Devastation fist was not going to change the game that dramatically.  No one was going to start raiding with 18 brawlers and 6 healers. They'd still have taken 2 at most i'm sure.  The only change this would have had is brawlers would actually have something to brag about on a few fights.  The most ridiculous part is that they nerfed it within one day of putting it on test.  They didnt test it out thoroughly. They heard a bunch of complaints and damage values from special cases like mayong on eq2flames and so they immediately ran out and nerfed it.  Thus, we won't even be able to see whether it was truly overpowered, because it won't even get proper testing.  If they want to make it not be % based thats fine.  I think the reason most people are upset is because they're likely to make it a very low flat damage value so that other classes won't complain about it. 

[BChizzle]

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anjin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You need to bear in mind not only the actual Dev fist hit dmg, but also the reduced dps for the stifle period afterwards.  If the stifle period is 10 secs and my DPS is reduced by 800 because I'm stifled, the Dev fist must do >8k dmg to even be worthwhile to overall dps.  Also, with a miss, you are still stifled so unless there is potential to do decent damage, it's just not worth the gamble of using it.</p><p>Considering raids are fighting epic mobs 4-5 lvls above them, I'd imagine the hit chance will be tiny considering how often I personally miss on > 70 non heroic mobs.</p><p>I guess fundamentally, if there is still a reasonable chance to miss it's not going to be a lot of use because it's not really dependable.</p><p>A few ideas below if it's not going to be % based:</p><ul><li>Hit/Miss chance based on normal melee hit/miss chance - i.e. crushing skill vs mob lvl.</li><li>Crit chance based on Melee crit chance.</li><li>If the stifle cannot currently be cured, make it cureable so it can be used as a means for a brawler tanks/OT's to regain aggro.</li><li>Make it so that if you hit from infront of the mob, it includes a threat enhancer (because they see you doing it) and from behind a threat diminisher (because they assume that it must be a predator, not a brawler hitting them that hard!) - similar to The Dagger of Purity in ToNT.</li><li>If the dmg is going to be erring on the low side, slap in a great debuff for the duration of the stifle.  The brawler might not be able to take advantage of it, but it would be of benefit to the raid.</li></ul><p>At the moment it's basically a fluff spell.</p></blockquote>Running with 2 brawlers JC you'd be doing this twice every 2 mins.  It would be way overpowered.  Yes its just one mob but remember we have an expansion coming out and there will be more mayong scenarios.</blockquote>Twice per 2 minutes so once per minute on average.  That's 1% of his health per minute so if its a 10 minute fight then it reduced his HP by 10%.  Is that really so overpowered to take 10% of a mobs health over the course of 10 minutes?  There'd still be 90% more to deal with....To say something is overpowered because it does a lot of damage on a few mobs is poor reasoning. Most mobs dont have mayong's HP, and on mobs like mayong, it might be a lot of damage, but it's still only 1%.  One percent.  An inquisitor will do 130,000 dmg to mayong with one spell cast.  Should we nerf them too?  Parses aren't everything.  Being able to do a lot of damage on a few mobs doesn't mean you should nerf the skill.  It's not like we could do that much damage on every mob. We wouldn't be having Lifeburn type damage on every mob, just a few really big ones, and it would still take a lot more than just the dev fist to kill those mobs.  I don't think something can be called overpowered unless it changes the game substantially. Devastation fist was not going to change the game that dramatically.  No one was going to start raiding with 18 brawlers and 6 healers. They'd still have taken 2 at most i'm sure.  The only change this would have had is brawlers would actually have something to brag about on a few fights.  The most ridiculous part is that they nerfed it within one day of putting it on test.  They didnt test it out thoroughly. They heard a bunch of complaints and damage values from special cases like mayong on eq2flames and so they immediately ran out and nerfed it.  Thus, we won't even be able to see whether it was truly overpowered, because it won't even get proper testing.  If they want to make it not be % based thats fine.  I think the reason most people are upset is because they're likely to make it a very low flat damage value so that other classes won't complain about it.  </blockquote>Takes us 6-8 mins on cmayong, this would put it way lower.  You have to understand on these types of fights much of the melee dps is on the adds so being able to run over and pop mayong with 1% is huge and then go back to the adds, would almost make the fight laughable.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

10s Stifle is not as big a problem as people say... just time it for when your CA's are down. You won't lose 800 DPS during the 10 seconds if you weren't capable of recasting the CA's to begin with.In all honesty, a 10s Stifle used at the right time will end up causing minimal, if any, reduction in your DPS. Run a few fights... take notice of the couple times per fight that you are basically doing nothing bu tautoattack and maybe a 300-500 damage CA..I'm all for having this ability do a lot of damage, but let's get our facts straight before we call out for changes. The devs will just look at what you are saying and laugh at you and change nothing if you leave blatant holes in logic like this.As for my idea for this?How about leaving the %'s as they are, but capping the damage at 2x your own HP. This means a regular self buffed Brawler with 8k hp, would be capable of doing 16k damage. And a raid buffed Brawler with over 10k hp could do 20k.That's a fairly reasonable cap for a 3 minute recast CA, and it puts the power of the damage in the control of the player. Buff up health if you want your Dev fist to be higher.

[Couching]

Let's go back to the fundamental problem:What's the purpose to give DF to brawler? The only answer is to raise our dps since brawler dps is screwed comparing to other fighters.All plate tanks have clear advantages in tanking than brawler and we are not even on top dps of all fighters. It's ridiculous. It's great that Dev can finally fix our dps comparing to other fighters.If DF is 6k damage every 3 minutes, it increases our ZW dps 33.3. It's meaningless.If DF is 12k damage every 3 minutes, it increases our ZW dps 66.6. Do you really think that the dps gap between brawler and zerker is only 66.6? Seriously, I prefer getting their 40% frontal aoe scaled with weapon rather than our joke 16% 250-400 damage proc aoe and 12k DF. 40% frontal aoe scaled with weapons will deal more damages in raid zone wide.If DF is 24k damage every 3 minutes, it increases our ZW dps 133. I would say, it's a fair amount for brawler to make sure we can deal more damages than any plate tanks no matter he is tanking or not. Otherwise, give brawler double attack with weapons and 40% frontal aoe scaled with weapon as other plate tanks. If we can get our brawler tree fix and be sure that we can deal more damages than zerker in a 100-200 dps ZW margin,  I don't care how many damage DF is.

[Cirth_Beer]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>This will be changing slightly.  Rather than percentage based against epics it will just be a large direct damage attack that scales with level.  It will still be useable against epics at least but not for the numbers players are currently reporting.  The other parts you have seen will remain the same though.</blockquote>So what do you plan Aeralik ? give us number for a lvl 70 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Otherwise, give brawler double attack with weapons and 40% frontal aoe scaled with weapon as other plate tanks. </blockquote>Well yeah.... I'd far prefer having that than one spell with a higher miss chance and relying on the HP of the target being the SOLE reason we compete.We should have those things AND a powerful damage CA from Dev Fist.

[Psychotic One]

I think they should do 1% of mobs hp with a max of double the max health of the brawler capping it.  Making the top end based on our HP would give an adjustable top end with out making it absurdly high.  So on average you'd see 14-16k on mayong and the 7-8k on labs trash

[BChizzle]

So now that they nerfed it to uselessness do you guys think they will raise it again or should I just keep it off my hotbar as usual?

[mr23sgte]

I doubt it --just like they changed our AA's too ---lol

[Nokrahs]

wonder why they change the DF at all after all the time.used to be a cool fluff style to onehit trash and displayed up a big dmg number on top.my problem with the change is to deal with just another additional CA in the Books and I usuallydon't think there is actually need for it since we get too many CA's doing the same stuff already (just likeany other class in the game).a useful change to DF such as a debuff / buff or unresistable stun would look better than more CA's dealingamounts of dmg because it's getting old.cheers,Nok

[tt66]

<cite>Hydor@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>For once let's not complain before we see the change. I tested it myself and it's not that great.</p><p>Doing 70k against contested Mayong is just too much, but doing 4k-7k every 3 minutes vs trash is probably too little. I hope for once that whatever change is applied will be rational and to our benefit. You can't expect to have a 65k-70k damage button as a fighter. So 1% is too much in some very few cases. However if they make it do a say fixed 10k damage that would be 3.5% vs labs trash 1.5% vs EH trash. I really expect it to be better than it is after it's changed. If it's fixed to 4k-5k we can start complaining. But not yet, I believe they have something good in mind. I HOPE I am right <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" /></p></blockquote>Current word from the test servers is :2184- 4056dmg  at 708 STR Can we start complaining now? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Anjin]

<img src="http://kbfl.co.uk/docs/devfist.gif" alt="" width="370" height="360" border="0" />

[Amphibia]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hydor@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>For once let's not complain before we see the change. I tested it myself and it's not that great.</p><p>Doing 70k against contested Mayong is just too much, but doing 4k-7k every 3 minutes vs trash is probably too little. I hope for once that whatever change is applied will be rational and to our benefit. You can't expect to have a 65k-70k damage button as a fighter. So 1% is too much in some very few cases. However if they make it do a say fixed 10k damage that would be 3.5% vs labs trash 1.5% vs EH trash. I really expect it to be better than it is after it's changed. If it's fixed to 4k-5k we can start complaining. But not yet, I believe they have something good in mind. I HOPE I am right <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" /></p></blockquote>Current word from the test servers is :2184- 4056dmg  at 708 STR Can we start complaining now? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Yes. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Siatfallen]

Att: Dev that may or may not read this forum:Okay, I'll join the bandwagon for once. This is utterly ridiculous.If you want to give up a "high set damage", try multiplying that damage listed on Devastation Fist in the post above by, oh, I don't know, five at the very least. The damage you have set here is an insult. Our three "heavyhitting" normal combat arts, which will not stifle us for ten seconds, should be about the same kind of damage, without the long recast timer.Additionally, you keep telling us that the reason brawlers are not being buffed for raid content is that we are too powerful in group content... So why do you now set this CA to do much, much less damage on raids than against, say, the Torklar Battlemaster in Unrest? If my information is correct, the battlemaster sits at a ridiculously high 100k hp - admittedly a lot for a heroic mob. With Devastation Fist, we can now smack him around for 25k in one shot. - But we do 4k at most (handwavy, guessing how strength modifies it) with the same CA, on an epic mob? What?Way to try and a balance the class in all situations. If you want us to only run heroic content, please tell us now. Y'know, instead of continuing to beat us on top of the head with the fact in these updates. If that's the case, at least we know you're not listening.So the first version of this new modified CA may have been overpowered. This change in an insult.

[Xanrn]

<p>Oh for godsake, give us 1 dollar, demand 20 dollar payment.</p><p>4k dmg on [Removed for Content] Epics is bullcrap. Especially with the [Removed for Content] stifle.</p>

[mr23sgte]

<span style="font-size: x-large;">Heroic Nerf INC -- watch and see</span>

[Kainsei]

Why didn't they just put the immunity timer on something like 2 min instead of making the ability useless in raids (come on, even with ad3 / legendary gear any decent monk can do more than 4k damage in 10 sec just by using CAs).Like we needed a 25% hit against heroic mobs.....

[PantherXX]

<p>I agree.  Why even bother with this change.  If memory serves, Dev. Fist costs 500 power.  So huge power for a 2750 hit that stifles us for 10s.  Using dev fist, for most raiding brawlers, will actually lower DPS for anyone who is good at timing CAs.</p><p>And frankly, I do think 25% on heroics is overpowered.  10% would be a little more reasonable, but it should stay at 1% for Epics.  Afterall, a healer class gets a spell that does 2% damage to Epics and somehow is not overpowered!  If it is a concern, make the immunity permanenton epics so I can only be used once.</p>

[Amphibia]

<cite>Lanari@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why didn't they just put the immunity timer on something like 2 min instead of making the ability useless in raids (come on, even with ad3 / legendary gear any decent monk can do more than 4k damage in 10 sec just by using CAs).Like we needed a 25% hit against heroic mobs.....</blockquote>I liked that...

[Morrolan V]

<p>Aeralik,</p><p>Can you please give us some background on why this change was made, and why the damage was set where it was?</p><p>Based on the current numbers, I WILL NOT use Devastation Fist on raids -- I believe it would actually be a net negative to DPS.   With the 10 second stifle, I am giving up ~4 CAs that have a better chance to hit, for the same or more damage, with much more power efficiency.</p><p>So . . . if 1% is overpowered (which I doubt), that's fine, but don't give us something that's manifestly useless.  IMO, the damage would have to be at least 4x what's shown on test to make it worth using.</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Morrolan V, you should check out the other forums on the web that deal with EQ2, as you'll find such answer as this:<cite>Aealik wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If you are going to play armchair quarterback then you have to at least look at the broad spectrum of abilities all classes have. The big hit skills on melee when you look at reuse do not give a huge dps value. For instant DF is about on par with decapitate which is on a 15 min base reuse timer and is something assassins are known for. Their smaller damage skills will outdamage this by a longshot just like kidney punch will outdamage devastation fist. Since we are talking about raids here lets look at what you guys just happen to conveniently forget while trying to argue for more damage. Straight up burn fights are usually pretty fast so you would probably want to save it for the end. When the mob is under 5% you unload all you have and then hit DF fist last. You are now stifled but the mob is about to die anyways and you still can autoattack that 1% or less thats left since its going to die in under 10 seconds anyways. Thats a pretty nice hit there at the end for any melee and almost no penalty. Maybe the mob aes though and you need to joust. These fights are a bit longer and you spend a lot of time jousting. ACT throws an alert that the ae is due so you throw on DF fist before you run out. By the time you get back in your stifle is probably almost up or worn off so once again minimal penalty if any. Both cases you just did a high damage attack with almost no penalty and with damage you previously did not have. So if you choose to not use it thats up to you but overall the skill is up there with some of the biggest hits in game. The rather minor penalty helps keep it in check somewhat since you are not a pure dps class but the skill still has a lot more use then you give it credit for. </p><div> __________________ Chris Kozak Spells, Combat, Achievements Programmer/Designer, EQ2 </div></blockquote>Personally, I think it could still use a doubling or tripling in Damage against Epics to become worthwhile. My idea of "keep % values and institute a cap based on our Health" is simultaneously capping the damage against epics and everything else (the last thing we need is MORE soloing benefits really), putting control of the damage in the players hands (getting the player more involved in the process, which equates to more fun), as well as making the CA worthwhile to cast and a "wow" factor. AND it still scales it to level.A 3k damage attack doesn't need a 10 second stifle. A 25% damage to heroics might. The problem is you have WILDLY varying results that keep the SAME drawbacks.. which is very poor mechanics. This needs to be normalized, and basing it on Health for capping damage would be a perfect compromise.

[Kota]

i feel pretty 'bla' about the whole thing.  imo the devs see that we need fixed and they are throwing us a bone to try to shut us up.  dunno.  will hafta see what actually makes it to live servers.

[shaolen]

<cite>Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Morrolan V, you should check out the other forums on the web that deal with EQ2, as you'll find such answer as this:<cite>Aealik wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If you are going to play armchair quarterback then you have to at least look at the broad spectrum of abilities all classes have. The big hit skills on melee when you look at reuse do not give a huge dps value. For instant DF is about on par with decapitate which is on a 15 min base reuse timer and is something assassins are known for. Their smaller damage skills will outdamage this by a longshot just like kidney punch will outdamage devastation fist.Since we are talking about raids here lets look at what you guys just happen to conveniently forget while trying to argue for more damage. Straight up burn fights are usually pretty fast so you would probably want to save it for the end. When the mob is under 5% you unload all you have and then hit DF fist last. You are now stifled but the mob is about to die anyways and you still can autoattack that 1% or less thats left since its going to die in under 10 seconds anyways. Thats a pretty nice hit there at the end for any melee and almost no penalty.Maybe the mob aes though and you need to joust. These fights are a bit longer and you spend a lot of time jousting. ACT throws an alert that the ae is due so you throw on DF fist before you run out. By the time you get back in your stifle is probably almost up or worn off so once again minimal penalty if any.Both cases you just did a high damage attack with almost no penalty and with damage you previously did not have. So if you choose to not use it thats up to you but overall the skill is up there with some of the biggest hits in game. The rather minor penalty helps keep it in check somewhat since you are not a pure dps class but the skill still has a lot more use then you give it credit for. </p><div>__________________Chris KozakSpells, Combat, Achievements Programmer/Designer, EQ2 </div></blockquote>Personally, I think it could still use a doubling or tripling in Damage against Epics to become worthwhile. My idea of "keep % values and institute a cap based on our Health" is simultaneously capping the damage against epics and everything else (the last thing we need is MORE soloing benefits really), putting control of the damage in the players hands (getting the player more involved in the process, which equates to more fun), as well as making the CA worthwhile to cast and a "wow" factor. AND it still scales it to level.A 3k damage attack doesn't need a 10 second stifle. A 25% damage to heroics might. The problem is you have WILDLY varying results that keep the SAME drawbacks.. which is very poor mechanics. This needs to be normalized, and basing it on Health for capping damage would be a perfect compromise.</blockquote><p>With all due respect I call Shennanigans!!! on that post by Aealik. </p><p>First off I would not call a 1.9-3.6k damage a "high damage attack".  I can do that much damage with my staff using auto attack. Secondly all we can do is armchair quarterback since we dont work for SOE.</p><p>Is it me or does it sound like Aealik got a little "defensive" in that post?  It sounds like they changed it before it went like so other classes wont complain.  But the crazy thing is, some of the other classes will still complain.  For GOD's sake SOE throw us a bone or two, so what if the other classes start [I cannot control my vocabulary] and moaning.  The status of monks in EQ2 is truly sad, it makes me wish for the old EQ days when we were needed.  </p>

[Anjin]

<p>To stop the joust scenario, put a root on it.</p><p>If you're worried about such massive burst dps in the dying moments of an encounter, why not put a rule in that when a mob is below 10% you only do 50% of the dmg or some other mob health/dmg out scaling method.</p><p>My concern is that your issues only come out when people raise theres.  Why not speak to some players that appreciate balance and discuss things?</p><p>In the past it's been amazingly frustrating when it seems like a skill has been "dealt with" and crossed off the list by the developers even though actual players have serious concerns.  There are always people that want themselves to have superhuman skills, but tbh, the majority of the brawlers out there are just after some equality and wouldn't seriously promote the incorporation of a "over-the-top skill".</p>

[Kaoru]

<cite>Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Morrolan V, you should check out the other forums on the web that deal with EQ2, as you'll find such answer as this:<cite>Aealik wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If you are going to play armchair quarterback then you have to at least look at the broad spectrum of abilities all classes have. The big hit skills on melee when you look at reuse do not give a huge dps value. For instant DF is about on par with decapitate which is on a 15 min base reuse timer and is something assassins are known for. Their smaller damage skills will outdamage this by a longshot just like kidney punch will outdamage devastation fist. Since we are talking about raids here lets look at what you guys just happen to conveniently forget while trying to argue for more damage. Straight up burn fights are usually pretty fast so you would probably want to save it for the end. When the mob is under 5% you unload all you have and then hit DF fist last. You are now stifled but the mob is about to die anyways and you still can autoattack that 1% or less thats left since its going to die in under 10 seconds anyways. Thats a pretty nice hit there at the end for any melee and almost no penalty. Maybe the mob aes though and you need to joust. These fights are a bit longer and you spend a lot of time jousting. ACT throws an alert that the ae is due so you throw on DF fist before you run out. By the time you get back in your stifle is probably almost up or worn off so once again minimal penalty if any. Both cases you just did a high damage attack with almost no penalty and with damage you previously did not have. So if you choose to not use it thats up to you but <span style="color: #ff0000;">overall the skill is up there with some of the biggest hits in game.</span> The rather minor penalty helps keep it in check somewhat since you are not a pure dps class but the skill still has a lot more use then you give it credit for. </p><div> __________________ Chris Kozak Spells, Combat, Achievements Programmer/Designer, EQ2 </div></blockquote>Personally, I think it could still use a doubling or tripling in Damage against Epics to become worthwhile. My idea of "keep % values and institute a cap based on our Health" is simultaneously capping the damage against epics and everything else (the last thing we need is MORE soloing benefits really), putting control of the damage in the players hands (getting the player more involved in the process, which equates to more fun), as well as making the CA worthwhile to cast and a "wow" factor. AND it still scales it to level.A 3k damage attack doesn't need a 10 second stifle. A 25% damage to heroics might. The problem is you have WILDLY varying results that keep the SAME drawbacks.. which is very poor mechanics. This needs to be normalized, and basing it on Health for capping damage would be a perfect compromise.</blockquote>What game is Aealik playing? Because in EQ2 I would hardly say that 3k is one of the biggest hits in the game.

[mattmandude]

Anyone on a PvP test server know if the ability will be changed in the pvp setting?

[Taiken]

<p>lol... See I keep telling you guys.. This company doesn't care about it's consumers. Which is REALLY bad.. Because <span style="color: #66cc00;">the second a new game comes out that offers the same game content but better customer relations and services.. I'm sure at the very least.. Half of the entire population of the game will leave.. </span></p><p>What this company fails to realize is, <span style="color: #990000;"><span style="color: #0099ff;"><span style="color: #33cc00;">any successful high performance company must know who their key clients are and what their needs are</span>.</span> </span>Given, you offer your clients entertainment.. Not everyone will find every aspect entertaining.. BUT.. <span style="color: #66cc00;">You guys at SOE messed up the game's content so much.. adding useless features like card games, rediculously long quests, constant nerfs and changes to the overall classes, bad customer service / relations .. And numerous other things your KEY CLIENTS DO NOT FIND APPEALING! </span></p><p>From a business stand point, you guys are on top because of the marketing strategies your comapny first deployed way back about 3 years ago and as well as your loyal customers on EQ1.. <span style="color: #33cc00;">You're a ruler of a niche market.. But what happens when your key client's interest changes?.. What of their new demands and needs in an evolving entertainment world?..</span></p><p>Think Im not making sense?.. It's simple, <span style="color: #33cc00;">every high performance company thus far knows that adapting to change to better serve their key customers is a rule of thumb.. <u>Yet we have developers running their mouths and keeping key clients at a dis-advantage.. Telling them what "they" think is right instead of listening to what consumers "need' and "want".</u></span></p><p><span style="color: #33cc00;">Look at the apple ipod for example -- since the distrubution of this product.. Along with the change in music distrubution.. Look at the major music distribution companies from back in 1998?.. What happend to them SOE?.. They have all struggled to keep with the current demand of the still evolving *DIGITAL MUSIC* market.</span></p><p>Another example -- <span style="color: #33cc00;">Look at google.com.. Major companies realized that majority of the consumers do not even care for commercials anymore, nothing seems to be getting into the heads of the consumers.. Sales are down even tho companies have invested so much in TV adds, print promos.. Why isn't it working?.. Simple.. The key clients needs have changed..</span><span style="color: #0099ff;"> </span>Where do these clients go now.. <span style="color: #33cc00;">They go to google, youtube, myspace, "ME" marketing. That is why you see adds on google, that is why ou see adds on your myspace.. These are marketing strategies to regain the confdience of their key customers!</span></p><p><span style="color: #0099ff;"><span style="color: #33cc00;">YOU GUYS AT SOE better shape up and start listening to your key clients before they all pull the plug on you, as soon as the next 'ipod' of MMO's hits the stands..</span> </span>Right now, <span style="color: #33cc00;">you're standing on the leg of a niche market.. what happens when a new competitor capitlizes in all the mistakes you guys have made?..</span> From the constant nerfs to classes, to the un-answered customer demands, to the lack of customer service!.</p><p>If you guys ask me.. <span style="color: #0099ff;"><span style="color: #33cc00;">I won't be to surprised, by 2009-.. This company actually starts losing key clients and starts struggling to keep up with the next 'ipod' of the MMO...</span> </span>Because folks, <span style="color: #33cc00;">in this forum alone.. We have had people actually go so far to give the company feedback by making posts/threads that state ideas, some have even don the math and even came up with VERY good senarios for changes to be made in the game.. What will happen if an emerging game developer takes all of our considerations to heart?.. </span><span style="color: #33cc00;">and starts implementing them in a brand new MMO.. </span><span style="color: #33cc00;">I dont see the benifits in staying here at EQ2 if another company offers me...</span>A better service, a better online experience, a better customer relations service.. And what if they start giving us things like a myspace, a search engine in the game?.. What if they figure out new ways to attract the average entertainment consumer?.. What can your company do about it?.. You gonna tell me that you're right and that I the consumer am wrong?.. Fine, I'll gladly leave to the other company where I feel I am valued and appreciated.</p><p>This is what happens when companies fail to realize the importance in valuing the demands of their key clients rather then protecting their precious blue print plans for "success".. <span style="color: #33cc00;">Quality over Quantity SOE.. Quality over Quantity.. </span></p><p><span style="color: #33cc00;">start recognizing the changing market infront of you and deal with it.. Otherwise prepare for a major financial loss in the coming years..</span></p><p>You guys are so in trouble within the next few years... I just can't wait to see how you will manage.</p><p>-Taiken</p>

[BChizzle]

It is ok guys.  The greatest monk among you has figured that Dev Fist will rock the hell out of heroic adds in all the cookie cutter EoF fights.  So not to worry, we will be hitting for 25k+ in avatar fights, cmayong, mayong, tender, gardener, that FTH guy etc.That is until Aer reads this and nerfs that too <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> !!

[mattmandude]

Yeah I was thinking about that.. I'll probably be able to solo a lot more of the T7 zones like Acadechism now... <div></div><div>And the named farming? Man, that makes me excited </div>

[Cirth_Beer]

<img src="http://cirth.free.fr/image/eq2/test/EQ2_000000.jpg" alt="" border="0" />That is what dev fist looks like today on test

[Drussna]

That looks pretty good. I'd hate to be a dev looking after the balance between the various classes in this game. I for one am grateful that whoever decided to upgrade this spell has put some thought into it and given us this result. I'm sure with RoK coming out soon, you have more pressing issues to attend to than revamping fluff spells from an adventure pack. Thanks for taking the time upgrade this one.

[mattmandude]

I went on to the test server and did a /feeback saying that I'm appreciative of the upgrade, but think the damage applied to epics needs to be increased.Something I also noticed is that there is no longer a pvp tag on devastation fists... I think they may have deleted the 80% damage done to pets.

[Bladewind]

Is anyone else getting a stifle even if dev fist fails to land?  I've only tried it a couple of times so far today, but it seems like I am now getting the stifle even if the art gets resisted.  No dev fist damage and a 10 second stifle puts a healthy dent into the dps <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[BChizzle]

<cite>Bladewind wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is anyone else getting a stifle even if dev fist fails to land?  I've only tried it a couple of times so far today, but it seems like I am now getting the stifle even if the art gets resisted.  No dev fist damage and a 10 second stifle puts a healthy dent into the dps <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>No when it misses a regular heroic no stifle but if I hit a heroic named there is no 25% damage bonus and it stifles.

[LTrav2k]

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bladewind wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is anyone else getting a stifle even if dev fist fails to land?  I've only tried it a couple of times so far today, but it seems like I am now getting the stifle even if the art gets resisted.  No dev fist damage and a 10 second stifle puts a healthy dent into the dps <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />"></blockquote>No when it misses a regular heroic no stifle but if I hit a heroic named there is no 25% damage bonus and it stifles.</blockquote>I noticed that too... I think what's happening is that the punch itself will hit and causes the stifle, but the devastation spell itself is resisted.  That leaves us stifled and has DF deal a measly 100 - 200 damage.  I was hoping that if the punch connected the effect couldn't be resisted, but after running through nest and achadechism... I've been corrected about my hopes.

[Xanrn]

<p>It doesn't work on alot of nameds, "this combat art can't be used on this target" blah blah.</p><p>Utterly uselss frigging upgrade.</p>

[Morrolan V]

<p>I'm glad to have this upgrade, limited though it may be.</p><p>To the point that it misses a lot - it does miss a LOT, particularly against names.</p><p>It seems to me that it would be logical to put an adept III upgrade for the spell into the game.  Many other bloodlines spells have them.  It didn't really make sense when it was solo mobs only, but with it's current version, a quality upgrade would make sense.</p>

[Chojin]

Was helping some friends in MMC last night, and I got to test this out numerous times against heroics, and I must say I really, really like the change.  I am not going to say anything more...

[Chojin]

<span class="postbody">One last thing, why does the skill not working on certain nameds make it "utterly useless"?  It didnt work on <b>any</b> nameds at all before, period.  It works on most now, so why is that not a good thing?Do you just like to [I cannot control my vocabulary] and moan?  It is hitting for 11k+ occasionally on some ^^^ heroics now, at at least 4-5k on a regular basis, and you are [I cannot control my vocabulary] about it?Some people just can't be satisfied.  I am disappointed in some of you.  I know most of you didn't use this skill <b>at all</b> before the change.  What would you like it to do, insta'kill Epics or something?  Jesus...</span>

[Couching]

Who the [Removed for Content] care about heroic mobs? OK, you like it, good. It's none of my business.Most raiding monks are not satisfied since it's utterly useless in raid. We don't care you can hit 11k on heroic or not.What we care is about epic mobs.

[Timaarit]

<cite>Chojin wrote:</cite><blockquote><span class="postbody">One last thing, why does the skill not working on certain nameds make it "utterly useless"?  It didnt work on <b>any</b> nameds at all before, period.  It works on most now, so why is that not a good thing?Do you just like to [I cannot control my vocabulary] and moan?  It is hitting for 11k+ occasionally on some ^^^ heroics now, at at least 4-5k on a regular basis, and you are [I cannot control my vocabulary] about it?Some people just can't be satisfied.  I am disappointed in some of you.  I know most of you didn't use this skill <b>at all</b> before the change.  What would you like it to do, insta'kill Epics or something?  Jesus...</span></blockquote>Rrright... No one has claimed that the DF is not good against heroics. But then I personally dont kill that many heroic mobs anymore.Also the devs contradicted themselves. They clearly stated that they cannot upgrade brawler because they think that brawlers are already too good on solo and group content and any upgrades on raids would improve brawlers too much. Then they pull out crap like this. DF change improved brawler soloing and grouping capability by significant amount. But there was no improvement on raids. So they said brawlers are too good on one part and then improved it even further. They also said that on raids brawlers could use some help and then they made a change that did absolutely nothing to brawlers in raids.So this change is utter BS, either they need to remove the [Removed for Content] stun from Devastation Fist when it is used against epics, or then the damage it does should be 10k+ against them. Till they do that, I wont be doing anything else but complaining.

[githyanki]

I personally kinda don't mind the stun component on it.   I'm so used to being the beaten dog class that anything that makes me feel important i'll take.   I don't have access to the parse from mmc last night but we where doing sod stuff in there and past the epic area toward by where that secret room is......   Yeah i hit a mob with DF and felt like an assasin with decapitate.    I won't say how much it hit for (cower from the nerf bat) but with a dirge in the group and after our defense debuff....yeah it makes a difference...     I'm on the butcherblock server so please feel free to look me up and hit me with a pm or tell in game if you see me on. 

[Timaarit]

Well why not say it? My highest hits so far are about 25k on a non heroic in CMM, <strike>13k on heroic in New Tunaria</strike> 31k against a heroic add of Treah Greenroot in EH (counted as 7% of all my damage...) and 6k on an epic in MMIS.So again the devs made a change that totally contradicts what they have said that they would do, which is to not to improve monk solo/group ability but to improve monks raiding ability. This change made us much better at soloing and grouping but it gave nothing for raiding.For raids, this skill currently counts as 1-1,5% of my zonewide DPS. As it is, I have often missed 4 to 5 CA's due to using this skill so unless I have a heroic add to hit, I will not use it. I have also been running OOP on a few occasions when we have been pulling fast and I have used DF.

[Nerill]

Just take the stifle off of it !That's all.<u>Just remove the stifle.</u>If need be .... increase the reuse timer to 5 minutes ..... but just <u>remove the stifle</u>.Simple.Please ..... remove the stifle.Lots of classes get a huge single hit CA or spells without a stifle.Even <i>Inquisitors</i> get verdict and they are <b><u><i>healers.</i></u></b>

[x0rtrun]

I got a 32,000 hit on the young dragon for tink bag heritage. The stiffle kinda sucks, but if you put it at the end of your CA progression you really don't miss much. I've had some lame hits for around 100 that i didn't understand. And I seem to miss way more than I used to. Personally, I'd like to see the stiffle reduced to 7 or 8 seconds. Or make spell quality levels that reduce the stiffle. And overall, dmg for tougher mobs is kinda weak considering the penalties involved. As it is, it's pretty much fluff. It comes in handy soloing, and can be fun in groups one shotting mobs or finishing off a tough mob in one blow near the final push.

[Balkor_Bloodba]

My best hit is 61k on Garnel in UnrestBiggest issue, it gets resisted by just about EVERYTHING, I honestly went about 6 hrs using DF everytime it refreshed before it actually worked against a Blue con mob at 70.

[shaolen]

<cite>Xanrn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It doesn't work on alot of nameds, "this combat art can't be used on this target" blah blah.</p><p>Utterly uselss frigging upgrade.</p></blockquote>Yep, plus even though you get the message that it cant be used against your current target you still get stifled as if it landed.  Have they said why it wont land against some targets?

[x0rtrun]

Almost as bad is landing it, but only hitting for ~200. what's the point? If it's going to have such a high penalty and miss percentage, it should at least be a consistently big hit. At least 1000 hp to make it as good as a good hit with one of our other high dmg CAs that have no penalty at all. I will say though, it has come in handy soloing and grouping when it does land. A big hit like that at the right time in a fight can mean the difference between success and failure. I'd just like to see it be a bit more consistent in the way that it works.

[Junaru]

You know 99% of the issues with the Monk are things that really need to be looked at but no doubt this is that 1%. Sure it should be fixed so it works on ALL heroic mobs and shouldn't stifle if it misses but other then that I don't see [Removed for Content] you guys are [Removed for Content] about. This skill went from completely useless to atleast helpful. What did you guys expect from it?I solo, I group and I raid and I find this skill useful in all 3 aspects. Would it be nice if it didn't stifle? Sure but I deal with it. Would it be nice if it did more damage to epic mobs? Sure but again I deal with it. Sorry guys but other then fixing the issues stated above I like DF now and other then the green mobs in the beginning of SoS I never used it but now I use it all the time. 2.3k parse on Hemogoblin in Unrest while everyone else was 1500 or less works for me.

[LTrav2k]

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>You know 99% of the issues with the Monk are things that really need to be looked at but no doubt this is that 1%. Sure it should be fixed so it works on ALL heroic mobs and shouldn't stifle if it misses but other then that I don't see [I cannot control my vocabulary] you guys are [I cannot control my vocabulary] about. This skill went from completely useless to atleast helpful. What did you guys expect from it?I solo, I group and I raid and I find this skill useful in all 3 aspects. Would it be nice if it didn't stifle? Sure but I deal with it. Would it be nice if it did more damage to epic mobs? Sure but again I deal with it. Sorry guys but other then fixing the issues stated above I like DF now and other then the green mobs in the beginning of SoS I never used it but now I use it all the time. 2.3k parse on Hemogoblin in Unrest while everyone else was 1500 or less works for me.</blockquote><p>I definitely agree that this is the least of our problems.  For me in raid situations, it has actually become pretty reliable since we have a pretty balanced set up.  So far dev fist has become a consistent 4-5% of my total raidwide dps, which since the changes has dropped at little to around 1300.  I've gotta get a weapon to replace fist of bashing in raids (hoping to score a twin calamity, or even Marr's Fist may fit the new delay model now) so I get more CA opportunities.</p><p>With soloing nameds, it has been really fun... I just stick to my usual game plan and fight normally until 30%... Crane Flock > Tsunami > Dev Fist... the stifle wears off right after tsunami so I get the opportunity to heal if I need to.</p><p>Even with the changes, our oldest monk is parsing around 1600 - 1800 per fight with burst dps outwards of 2300 in EoF raid zones.  I've got a lot of gear which I still need to acquire, but it's happening slowly buy surely!</p><p>I guess the real issue is, that this was supposed to be our olive branch from the devs to let us know that they were working on us.  Not sure if it alone will accomplish that task.  I hope that uncontested avoidance will be reviewed, or even some method of counterattack technique that would delve into another aspect of martial arts.</p>

[githyanki]

<p>Well i had a record breaking hit with DF in unrest tonight.  According to eq2 players it falls into the 6th highest melee hit on the list.  Fighting with a temp warden dirge zerker and swashy on the chest pc mob.   Yeah if it wasn't so late i would have had the guy post it in lvl chat.   Took a screenie of the act readout regardless so nobody would call me a liar.   I'm actually looking forward to the new spells and to see what they are gonna do to up our utility and generally anything else to the monk class.    My only fear is that some other class is gonna cry for a nerf so i'll let ya call me a liar if you like.   But man o man was i flipping out when i saw that dps under my name hit 4k after 32 seconds.   </p><p>So please devs leave DF alone and let the monk class enjoy our little chicken bone every 3 minutes.   We have been due for some kind...any kind of bone for ages.    Now if they would just fix avoidance tanking........</p>

[Timaarit]

This skill still needs an upgrade for raiding. It uses way too much power if it is used against an epic mob compared to the damage it does. Using DF on epics means lowered DPS due to being out of power much sooner than normally. I know this is not a problem for a raid that is slow on pulling but when you get 1 or 2 ticks of power regen between the fights, you just cant use this skill unless you have 2 power regen classes in your group. With the stifle and low damage, this skill should use 0 power when used against an epic mob.

[x0rtrun]

I dunno about 0 power, but it certainly has a high penalty for the damage it does. For the same amount of power I can cast 3 or 4 CAs that will very likely out damage DF. Not to mention the stiffle. Here's what I'd like to see happen to DF to refine it a bit, cause right now it has some rough edges. 1. Fix it to work on all mobs like it should 2. Reduce the power cost to about 200-300 power 3. Reduce the stiffle to 8 secs 4. Boost the damage to epics by 5-10% Right now it's not really all that attractive to use in most situations. In raids it uses way too much power for what you get out of it. And it still doesn't work on all mobs, which is a bug that needs to get fixed. It's also very dangerous to use in group situations when you are the MT. The stiffle basically throws aggro control out the window. So basically it remains a tool for soloing, but at least now it hits heroics.

[Xanrn]

<p>I got a 55k well 54.874k hit on Screewloose the Mad Tinkerer in Unrest.</p><p>I haven't gotten over like 7k with a crit on Epics it bloody ridiculus.</p><p>The damage against epics should be 10-20k. round about.</p>