Rok expansion New zones to be Huge but no group mobs in outside zones

[Giral]

<p>Fan Faire Notes : </p><p>* Zones are huge ... the Kylong zone is 3 kilometers by 4 kilometers in size ... that is over twice the size of The Commonlands. That one zone will have Field of Bone, Kurns Tower, Lake of Ill Omen, Swamp of No Hope, Karnors Castle.</p><p>and then : </p><p><i>* Metrics of SOE show that folks hate grouping to gain XP in overland zones so nearly all mobs in overland zones will be solo mobs  ( I Think it is a "few" SOLO players who HATE having to deal with ^^^ Mobs in outside zones is what you wanted to say ) </i></p><p><i>wasn't aware the people Hated outside grouping ?  leveling up i remember being in a TON of groups in Thundering Steppes, Rivervale,,ZEK,Lavastom,Sinking Sands, POF,BG in TT, etc....</i></p><p><i>one thing that Alot of people actualy Hated was having to Run all the way thru Feerot to group up in CT , And it appears that ROK expansion is going to nothing but a Feerot experiance  except NOW we will have to Run thru Zones 3 times the size of the Commandlands just to get to a GROUP Zone(In some Dank inside area) </i></p><p><i> </i><i>Funny you Re-vamped Nect Forest into a 90 % Solo Zone and i can go into Nectulous anytime of day and there are at most 3 People in the entire ZONE, but i can go to Thundering Steppes and there are usualy 2 or 3 group's of plyers Exping of ^^^ Griffens or Gaints or Gnolls , etc,,,, </i></p><p><i> Groupers now with KOS and EOF , Realy don't have any choices Almost Everything is INSIDE a Dungeon,anything Worthwyle that is,   if you look thru the Game, you see that Rivervale,lavastom,Zek, etc,,, were some of the MOST used Grouping places in the entire game, and they were all Outside ,   </i></p><p><i>it's funny you design KOS and EOF with no Real things to Group up for in Outside Area's and then you say "we studied the Data and we see that people Hate grouping outside"      </i></p><p><i> i Tell you what you make a High Level Outside zone (Like Rivervale) that has the Same Amount of Names as you have in SOS and Guarantee That Outside place will have ALOT of groups </i></p><p><i>Funny Alot of people Loved Unrest and it is Part Outside Zone, Alot of people Love Emerald Halls Raid becuase it is SO SO nice to not have to be Stuck in some Dark Dungeon for hours and hours </i></p><p><i> I like Group instance, but i also like to get a SUNTAN , i don't want White pastey flakey skin cuase im always in a DAMP moldy ol Basement  </i></p><p><i>well atleast you are giving faster Mount's so we can get thru Miles and Miles of SOLO Trash and all the effort into creating the entire outside atmosphere that only a Very sparce handfull of players that will experiance it, becuase all of the Group players will be Cornholed Nicely tucked away in some Rank Dark dreary sunless place : ( </i></p><p><i>i realy was hoping for atleast a Couple of Outside Zones for Group's that HATE being Forced into a Dungeon or Instance, something like Rivervale , Lots of Names around, plenty of ^^^ always could get a EXP group there and it was a Cool looking place, with a nice layout</i></p><p><i>o Well her's looking forward to 10 levels of  Group forming for X,Y,Z,H INSTANCE , instead of group's forming for Z,X,Y, ZONES  </i></p>

[Beldin_]

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote><i>Zone and i can go into Nectulous anytime of day and there are at most 3 People in the entire ZONE, but i can go to Thundering Steppes and there are usualy 2 or 3 group's of plyers Exping of ^^^ Griffens or Gaints or Gnolls , etc,,,, </i> </blockquote><p>Most people i know simply hate Nek Forest because of its design/layout. When there were tons of heroics in Nek Forest there were also normally only groups there for AQ5-6 or Halberd-HQ. If people slay Griffons in TS they normally camp Bloodtalon. The only "grindspot" were always the giants. </p><p>Look at othere zones ..  EL .. there is nearly never anybody killing the heroic Nightbloods or Lamias. And i really can't remember that somebody has ever killed some of the heroic spiders .. lol.</p><p>Feerott .. the Area around CT .. if somebody is killing mobs there then i would say for 99% they want to spawn agony, or else just get the AAs for a firstkill <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Lavastorm/Everfrost ? I have never seen anybody killing mobs there just for fun .. only reason are the HQs .. else the zones are deserted.</p><p>Yeah .. sometimes some people pick up these quests for killing 20 mobs you find in Everfrost and maybe do them for AAs now .. but in the end Lava and Everfrost are the most deserted zones in the game.</p>

[Savanja]

Interesting.  I actually don't hate heroic mobs in overland zones.  I always thought it was sort of handy to have em around so you could drag a small group or duo to a quick spot and just hack away.  I don't like always having to make my way to a dungeon to be able to group, so..hmm..   Not all that cool.

[Freliant]

<p>Overland zones = solo quests... and many of them</p><p>Dungeons = Group content, and many of them... which are much longer than what we are used to.</p><p>Raid dungeons = Raids of 24 people, which are much longer than what we are used to, and will probably require more than one day to complete.</p><p> How many times in T7 did you see a group saying "group forming to kill heroics in Bonemire for xp"? Overland mobs that have no other purpose than XP are a bad idea specially this high into the game. They mean "grinding" and grinding out levels is not good. Now if the mobs need to be killed for a particular quest, or are part of an event where a named spawns, that is another story. That makes em worthwhile... but just heroic for heroics sake... not good.</p>

[Liral]

<p>I want their to be outside group content as well. Grouping in dungeons over and over and over gets boring..  variety is the spice oif life..</p>

[Freliant]

<cite>Liral wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I want their to be outside group content as well. Grouping in dungeons over and over and over gets boring..  variety is the spice oif life..</p></blockquote><p> lol... so... instead of killing mob xyz in a dungeon where you could get a named that drops good loot, you prefer to kill that same mob outside with no possibility of good loot... just xp?</p><p>IMO, they can do much better stuff with their production time than putting a bunch of heroic mobs that will see very minimal use. </p>

[AbsentmindedMage]

<cite>Liral wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I want their to be outside group content as well. Grouping in dungeons over and over and over gets boring..  variety is the spice oif life..</p></blockquote>Nothing is stopping you from grouping in overland zones just because it isnt heroic.  That is your choice.  Likewise, just because it is solo content doesnt mean that it cant be challenging.  For example, i find those little tiny fearlings on the isle of fear in TT to be rather challenging.  Individually, they are easy but they are very social creatures and can quickly become overwhelming to a single player of the appropriate level range as them.  If you are of a lower level than the area, it is still advantageous for you to group with others so that you have a better chance.

[Leatherneck]

<cite>AbsentmindedMage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Liral wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nothing is stopping you from grouping in overland zones just because it isnt heroic.  That is your choice.  </blockquote></blockquote><p> I tell you what, a group can totally rip through some solo quests that way.  We did that when Neriak opened up.  5 ebil-Fae and an Iksar and we just tore up the zone.  Nicknamed that group The Swarm because it was like a swarm of locusts blasting through the content.  Much fun was had by all.</p><p>We did get asked once if we could slow up because other people were having a time trying to find mobs to kill, so we slacked off for a while.</p><p>I'm totally digging this setup:</p><p><i>Overland zones = solo quests... and many of them</i></p><p><i>Dungeons = Group content, and many of them... which are much longer than what we are used to.</i></p><p><i>Raid dungeons = Raids of 24 people, which are much longer than what we are used to, and will probably require more than one day to complete.</i></p><p>My only gripe is the decline of 2 group raids.  We're a lvl 60 guild who can sometimes put together 2 full groups at any given time, to do stuff.  Removing 2 group raids is really going to hurt.</p>

[KBern]

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Overland zones = solo quests... and many of them</p><p>Dungeons = Group content, and many of them... which are much longer than what we are used to.</p><p>Raid dungeons = Raids of 24 people, which are much longer than what we are used to, and will probably require more than one day to complete.</p><p> How many times in T7 did you see a group saying "group forming to kill heroics in Bonemire for xp"? Overland mobs that have no other purpose than XP are a bad idea specially this high into the game. They mean "grinding" and grinding out levels is not good. Now if the mobs need to be killed for a particular quest, or are part of an event where a named spawns, that is another story. That makes em worthwhile... but just heroic for heroics sake... not good.</p></blockquote><p> Good point.  The way this playstyle of people in this game has progressed, it seems about right.</p><p>Most people do not choose to group and grind in outdoor zones on random heroics.  When you have a good group set up, or even a remotely good group, most people enjoy the dungeon crawl for the more excitement and better loots.</p>

[Dynaen]

<p>The reasoning "most don't like grouping in outdoor zones" is a bit ridiculous seeing as almost all outdoor content is already solo content.  I still see groups being put together daily to exp in TT Breeding Grounds and Pof Cyclops.  They're about the only intelligently designed spots for outdoor grouping in the game.  Everything else is spaced miles apart.  That's why people hate grouping outdoors, is because of lack on content and groupworthy mobs, not because its boring or too hard.</p><p>And I won't get into how I'd never consider grouping in someplace like Loping Plains for the sheer fact that literally every mob in the zone stuns or snares.  That's another reason why people probably hate grouping outdoors is because of zones like Loping Plains, which isn't even scary, its just flat out *annoying*.  I feel absolutely no danger crossing Loping Plains on autorun on any of my 70th level characters, other than knowing it will take me forever for the constant wolf snares, bear snares, worm stuns, zombie snares, stirge stuns, and the list goes on.  Make zones like Everquest 1 Overthere or Dreadlands in regards to grouping and you'd probably see a lot more use and excitement instead of packing a zone filled with snaring/stunning mobs and think people will enjoy that.</p>

[interstellarmatter]

<p>They just can't make up their minds.  At one point, heroics were in the outdoor zones.  Then they took them out.  People complained about them missing so they put them back in.  Now they are taking them out. </p>

[Beldin_]

<cite>Dynaen wrote:</cite><blockquote> I still see groups being put together daily to exp in TT Breeding Grounds and Pof Cyclops.  They're about the only intelligently designed spots for outdoor grouping in the game.  </blockquote><p>There are a lot of spots with heroics in PoF .. Cyclops .. Harpyies .. Nagas .. Raptors .. Kromtoes  .. i just leveled 2 new toons the last weeks in pillars, and also did ashen order, naga/cyclops L&L .. and run around really much there .. but i never saw anybody there killing any of the heorics mobs .. the only one was me when i did the L&L .. or killings some Raptors because the Kromtors for Goblin Diplomacy wouldn't spawn.</p><p>Or go shimmering citadell .. i also often did Naga L&L there .. but never ever saw any other person there .. and its also full of Heroics.</p><p>Ok .. the main problem in the end is the loot. All these outdoor mobs just only drop crap. Instead of a ^^^-mob you could better pull 4-8 solo-mobs that give the same experience, but everyone of them can drop some loot so you make more money at least. </p>

[Cyndor]

They forced groups into dungeons IMO.  They decided to cram a lot of named mobs who carry to good loot into a cramped and confined space.  If they would make named mobs with master chests out in the open as well as in the dungeons you would see groups LFM in an overland zone.  They need to find away to make the outdoors as risky as in a dungeon and reward it accordingly.  I use to grind on TS, and RV then once master chests became common in dungeons I hardly ever see grind groups nor do I care to join one.  Smarter level design in the out doors that are risky and rewarding would bring groups into the light of day.

[sfarugger]

Don't misunderstand what they were implying with the answers from Fan Faire.  They did not say they would not have heroic mobs in the overland zones, they simply stated that you will not have an influx of heroic mobs and that the majority of the overland zones would be solo content.  That does not mean that you will not see any heroic or even epic contestd encounters.

[kcirrot]

With the exception of the giants in TS, I never see anyone grouping in the overland zones in a full group.   I haven't since the first wave of players grinded to 50.  People always claim they love heroic content in the overland, but where are the groups fighting the werewolves in LP or the Aviaks in BS? It's good that the devs have finally decided to make the overland a place where soloers can do their thing.  Groups prefer instances and dungeons.  Sure every time this comes up someone will claim to love grouping in the overland, but then they log on the game and start building Unrest teams. <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[ke'la]

<p>You can't argue with Data, and I am sorry to break it to you but the data says, even when there is more then enough heroic overland content , (ie, the entire SW of TS, and the pit to the south of RoV, and the Griffin Fields) the vast majority of the groups head to the dungons. BTW, I am fairly certain that Rivervale like New Tunaria is consitered a Dungon NOT an overland zone. Why? think about it, the enterance area has a few solos but go just alittle ways in and its all Heroic(like a Dungon), The paths are not resonably safe(overland marked paths are), it has only one enterance(all overland zones have atleast 2) and that enterance is off an overland zone. Personally I would love to see more Outdoor Dungons like Rivervale.</p><p>BTW, The devs also stated there will be transport thru the zones, though it will be earned transport just like the transport in EoF.</p>

[TheSpin]

<p>Here's the ultimate truth....</p><p>People that have been at max level for a year and a half are now going to be 10 levels below max level.  Some of these people prefer outdoor heroic content to grind on rather than questing and running dungeons.  These are the people complaining, and these are the people who were probably overlooked by the 'research'.</p><p>BTW  there is heroic content in outdoor zones in EoF and this further illustrates that it is under utilized because nobody has even mentioned it.  BBM has some 30ish heroic stuff ...Steamfont has the craters full of heroic minotaurs and the mines.  Lesser faydark has some heroic content in the thexian camp and a few other places (like outside of oob).  Loping planes has a lot of heroic content, mostly closer to mistmoore.</p>

[Oakleafe]

<cite>AbsentmindedMage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Liral wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I want their to be outside group content as well. Grouping in dungeons over and over and over gets boring..  variety is the spice oif life..</p></blockquote>Nothing is stopping you from grouping in overland zones just because it isnt heroic.  That is your choice.  Likewise, just because it is solo content doesnt mean that it cant be challenging.  For example, i find those little tiny fearlings on the isle of fear in TT to be rather challenging.  Individually, they are easy but they are very social creatures and can quickly become overwhelming to a single player of the appropriate level range as them.  If you are of a lower level than the area, it is still advantageous for you to group with others so that you have a better chance. </blockquote>If my brief experience as a lvl 12 Illu in Antonica post-GU37 is anything to go by then this forgetful finger-wagglers' example is why grouping should be no different.  In Antonica, they've changed the gnoll groups into gnoll solo's but left many in the same camps as before.  They stand so close that, with their social/pack nature, you get overwhelmed if you attack using anything other than a body pull.  When they were in groups they were given a down-arrow or two (or three, I forget) but now you are left fighting harder solo mobs in social attack groups (if you see what I mean) so are worse off that before. Any class who has AoE that is target-group specific loses the AoE benefit of that spell by fighting single mobs.  Any class with no, or few, AoE will be no better off than before - i.e. If you struggled to solo the grouped areas before then I think you will continue to struggle.

[Weizen Heimer]

Where can the fan faire notes be found?

[Rahatmattata]

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Liral wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I want their to be outside group content as well. Grouping in dungeons over and over and over gets boring..  variety is the spice oif life..</p></blockquote><p> lol... so... instead of killing mob xyz in a dungeon where you could get a named that drops good loot, you prefer to kill that same mob outside with no possibility of good loot... just xp?</p><p>IMO, they can do much better stuff with their production time than putting a bunch of heroic mobs that will see very minimal use. </p></blockquote>As opposed to solo mobs that will see very minimal use? How much production time does it take exactly to say "this mob has 3 arrows" or "this mob has no arrows".

[DMIstar]

In this game.. I havent Grouped for XP in an outside zone since TS days in the lvl 20's .. How i Find it strange is.. in EQ went from FoB, LOIO, OT, DL, and so on for xp grinding ... Loot return on that was basically Nill.. It was all about the XP gain. I think the biggest factor to this was, SoE's view on Getting "rid" of camping and haveing more crawling and the such to complete areas/places like LDON did. Major side effect though ... is Outland zones are nearly dead. I dont think theres anything that can revive that ;/. I think with EQ it had a lot to do with mob placement and respawn times. People could goto east wall camp in DL and pull and eventually get respawns if the place was filled. The only other thing i could can think of.. In EQ it was hazardous to die ... So harder dungeons wherent utilized as much since if corpse run had to be done, it would be time draining, as well as harder to get done in a dungeon other then an outland zone... where you could just drag corpse to nearest cleric and get rezzed ;P Actually come to think about it.. there was a lot more people helping each other in EQ then this one, just do to the ton of limitations this game has. anyways the only way i could see OUtland zones comeing close to being utilized is if the loot was there for it to accurr.. then how long would that last? But even in EQ there was still loot in outland zones.

[Leatherneck]

<p>Actually, it makes a great deal of sense.</p><p>Personally if I'm waiting for a group, or waiting for the rest of my group to get to the dungeon, I'll pull some solo stuff, rather than just stand around waiting.</p><p>It gives people choices and opportunities even if they never solo.  You could choose to stand in town or wherever advertising LFG in channel, or you could do the same thing and pulling some solo content near the dungeon area you want to adventure in.</p>

[Sorenias]

<p>Heroics in outdoor zones please.</p>

[Giral]

ke'la wrote: <blockquote><p>You can't argue with Data, and I am sorry to break it to you but the data says, even when there is more then enough heroic overland content , (ie, the entire SW of TS, and the pit to the south of RoV, and the Griffin Fields) the vast majority of the groups head to the dungons. BTW, I am fairly certain that Rivervale like New Tunaria is consitered a Dungon NOT an overland zone. Why? think about it, the enterance area has a few solos but go just alittle ways in and its all Heroic(like a Dungon), The paths are not resonably safe(overland marked paths are), it has only one enterance(all overland zones have atleast 2) and that enterance is off an overland zone. Personally I would love to see more Outdoor Dungons like Rivervale.</p><p>BTW, The devs also stated there will be transport thru the zones, though it will be earned transport just like the transport in EoF.</p></blockquote><p> Actualy you can argue with the Data , as this simple post implies , i have not seen "ONE" person say that they "HATE"  "Grouping"  for Outside herioc content.   and SOE's Data has been wrong Many time's befor Look at Interstellermaters post" First they had Heriocs then they removed and then they added herioc's Back in and now they are removing them again "   besides all the other Area's of the game where SOE's Data just doesn't play out against the Mases of player's , just becuase something Looks goo by the number's or work's out perfectly on Paper with a bunch of data and numbers doesn't mean it will hold true in Gamplay!</p><p>i do see many reason's posted of WHY grouping for outside content is less enticing then grouping for an Instance that has Quest's, and alot of Names, and has Chances to Drop Class Gear , etc,,, </p><p>Instances are set up to be Vastly more rewarding, BUT as someone else pointed out that people use to group up Alot in outside zones to work on Heritage quests = Very good rewards , </p><p> if you make Instances 10X more rewarding then Outside Area's for grouper's, and then you look at the Data  "where are all the Group's Going ?" It's a No Brainer that Obviously they are going to the content that is designed for them </p><p>People right now are grouping up in Breeding ground's in TT  for exp group's,  i see Spam in chat for them everynight ,  why wouldn;t they just go run an Instance instead of Grouping for Exp in an Outside Zone ? it takes just as llong to get to TT as it would to go to Living tomes or Anciants Table, Casa's Mesa,Peots place ? </p><p> I Do agree with you that New Tunaria is an Outside Instanced Zone (and my Favorite zone in the entire game /Hat's of to the art work done in this Zone Simply Awe inspiring) , unfortunatly it's tucked away in GF and People don't even know how to get to it( i Kid you not i have had to lead Many many lvl 70 toons to New Tunaria becuase they never even knew it was there , and Couldn't get to the zone in becuase they kept geting lost ) </p><p>yes i am hoping for More Zone's like Tunaria for group's, and if we atleast get Outside Instances then i will be  happy, i just don't see the logic in not having One Outside Zone in the Realm in the 75 to 80 level range as Mostly herioc with a Bunch of Names in it and Quests(Good rewarding quest's Part's for Epic woepon's), i don't see how it effect's solo play, if your not in a group don;t go wandering around in there(even tho i would solo becuase i love to scout out places  that i shouldn't be : ) </p><p>Does a level 70+ player realy need to have the entire Outside Realm of EQ2 to be SAFE ? lvl 70 toon's can run thru any Grey zone in the game and just about any 65+zone(loping plains as pointed out is a Pain in the BLANK with all the Stuns,Stifles,etc,,, but with invis totem(or without for them for other classes) its realy not an issue. </p><p>would be nice to have a outside zone be as dangerous to level 75+ player's as Nectulous was to level 1 thru 30 lvl players at release . that would be Fun : ) i realy evil nasty dangerous place to Exp in,Quest in,kill names in</p>

[kcirrot]

<cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Here's the ultimate truth....</p><p>People that have been at max level for a year and a half are now going to be 10 levels below max level.  Some of these people prefer outdoor heroic content to grind on rather than questing and running dungeons.  These are the people complaining, and these are the people who were probably overlooked by the 'research'.</p><p>BTW  there is heroic content in outdoor zones in EoF and this further illustrates that it is under utilized because nobody has even mentioned it.  BBM has some 30ish heroic stuff ...Steamfont has the craters full of heroic minotaurs and the mines.  Lesser faydark has some heroic content in the thexian camp and a few other places (like outside of oob).  Loping planes has a lot of heroic content, mostly closer to mistmoore.</p></blockquote>I don't think these people were "overlooked".  I think the devs just realize that it's not a good use of zone space to create camps for people who don't really want to play the content, just grind on it until they can start raiding. There's so much truth in this post.  The truth is that despite whining about solo players wanting everything "easy", the real reason people want outdoor solo mobs is so they have a mindless, quick and easy path to level 80 so they can start raiding within two weeks of RoK going live.  They don't want to actually play the content designed for groups because that would require that they *gasp* move around a dungeon and actually act like they are adventures instead of the tried and true camping exp grind. I often see soloers in the outdoor zones, all of them, using the content.  I never see groups using the group content.   And after the raiders grind their characters to 80, we would never see them in the outdoor zones again because that's not where the loot is.

[Uumuuanu]

<p>The game is all about dungeons now, it has been since, well, honestly since LU13 and DoF.</p><p>Fact, most good loot comes from dungeons.</p><p>Fact, dungeon instances guarantee you named.</p><p>Fact, most dungeons can be viewed/done in one night(2-3 hours for the largest of them such as SoS).</p><p><b>Original game was a blend of indoor/outdoor zones.  Nearly all outdoor zones contain heroic mobs. Good blend of indoor/outdoor exp and loot.</b></p><p>Taking those facts into mind lets examine the expansion packs -</p><p>Bloodline chronicles, 99.99% inside dungeon (only a few quest NPC were outside)</p><p>DoF, blended indoor/outdoor expansion.  Most good loot came from either camps (outdoor dungeons basically) or indoor dungeons or instanced dungeons (roost, ancients, palace, etc).  </p><p>Mara, blended indoor/outdoor expansion.  Most points you ended up in a dungeon or instance inside.</p><p>KoS, blended indoor/outdoor expansion.  80% of outside content was solo or soloable.  Most quests and loot took you into dungeons. Most instances and dungeons in any expansion to date. Mix of shared dungeons or instances</p><p>EoF, blended indoor/outdoor expansion, 90% of outside content was solo or soloable.  More instanced zones then in the past.  Only a few shared dungeons.  Mostly instanced.  All armor sets are in dungeons.  Most outdoor named are soloable.</p><p>Ok, anyone notice a pattern?   </p><p>Estimated RoK, 95% of all outdoor content will be soloable.  Most indoor dungeons will be instanced with only a few shared dungeons (if any).  All major loot will be inside.  Almost all raid mobs will be inside.  </p><p>*the following is purely conjecture but follows the trend*</p><p>Fact, expansion AFTER RoK will contain only outsdoor soloable mobs and instanced dungeons.  No shared content other then raid zones.  </p><p>Fact, the /who command will be removed since no one will be in the zone with you who is not in your group.</p><p>Fact, summoning mobs will be implemented into the game removing the need for running across zones more then once.  Items will be given by these mobs to allow you to be instantly summoned into instances.</p><p>Fact, outdoor zones will only be for harvesting of tradeskill items and soloing.</p><p>FACT,  instanced zones are easier for sony to manage on their infrastructure without having to open up multiple large instances of outdoor zones which take up more resources and cause lag on their servers, example Darklight Woods.</p><p>FACT, Sony wants your real life to be much like the game, spend more time inside playing and less time outside.   *giggle*  *this was placed here simply to see if Devs read this far*</p>

[roces9]

The problem with the Outdoor= solo Dungeon = Group setup (as I see it) is that sometimes there are "Level Gaps" where you are too high for one dungeon but are still too low for another dungeon. In my experience, 33-37 is kind of a dead zone for grouping. RoV starts getting too easy around 32-33 and you can't get really deep into Runnyeye untill youre in youre high 30s. Even after EoF was released I had more than a few groups (on my alt) camping outdoor Heroics in EL purely for exp. We always did the ^^^ lashers in the SW of the zone, but I'm sure there are a lot of places. I like overland grouping because it's more relaxing and can be more interesting. Don't get me wrong, I love CoV/OoB and Unrest groups, but some times it can be mentally tiring on me to just try to burn through a zone as fast as possible just to get the lewt. Overland grouping is nice because you don't have to stay for a certian amount of time. Think EQLive where if youre healer was leaving, they found a replacement healer, didn't leave till the replacement got there and then the group kept going. Plus after a few times of running an instance you know what to expect. In overland groups you have to deal with pathing Adds and repops. I already mentioned this in another thready, but I think that SoE should add more Heroic Quest Timelines that work like the solo quests. You know that quest in LP where you have to kill 20 or 30 ^^^ wherewolves? More stuff like that in a timeline (just like the solo progression) with rewards that aren't as good as dungeon rewards, but good nonetheless. Give us a reason to group overland other than just grinding... but let us grind if we want to. I'm not saying that one playstyle is better than the other, but SoE should really give us at least a few options to group Heroics in Overland zones.

[LordPazuzu]

Personally, I agree with the solo outside, group inside approach.

[Giral]

<p>let's say in Tenebrous Tangle  if One of the "Large" Islands in the Sky was set up with As many Names as you have in Sanctum of the Scaleborn, and they made the island Tricky to get around by using the Landscape as if you were in a dungeons so you would have to work your way up ,around,thru part of the island,etc,,  and you had to go there for Quests for Claymore Parts, would you Hate having to Group outside for it ?      or would you be happy that you didn't have to be Stuck in Sanctum of the Scaleborn for the Entire Claymore quest series ? </p><p>if only 1/3 of the Claymore quest Parts in the TT  Zone were in SOS and the rest was Outside in TT on a GROUP Island do you think people would "HATE" SOS as much as they do ?  </p><p>would People "HATE" that they had 2 Area's to Group in TT that had the same amount of names and quest's for Group player's ? </p><p>Would People be VERY happy that on an ALT they didn't have to go Back into SOS for the WHOLE entire Claymore Quest ? (i know ALOT of people who will NEVER do Claymore on an ALT becuase they "HATE" SOS with a PAssion becuase that was the ONLY Instance zone to go to at that level and you HAD to go there for CLAYMORE so it is a Double Negative, with EOF atleast you can go to ACAD, or Kaladim now ; ) </p>

[Lornick]

<p>Players are going to be where the good loot drops, pure and simple.  The only exception to this rule is level grinding.  If players can find somewhere that is very safe, but mobs are plentiful they may group there to grind out exp.  Players at the level cap obviously don't care about grind mobs so those locations will be barren of players at the level cap.</p><p>I personally think SOE should add some named herioc encounters outdoors, but since those named would be far more accessible they should also have a significant increase in difficulty to compensate.  IF THEY ARE GOOD LOOT DROPPING NAMED ONLY!  If the outdoor named are for quests or drop crap loot they should be the same difficulty they are now.</p>

[liveja]

<cite>roces9 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem with the Outdoor= solo Dungeon = Group setup (as I see it) is that sometimes there are "Level Gaps" where you are too high for one dungeon but are still too low for another dungeon. I'm not saying that one playstyle is better than the other, but SoE should really give us at least a few options to group Heroics in Overland zones.</blockquote><p> I pretty much agree entirely with roces9 on this post. If nothing else, I think there should be enclaves of Heroics guarding various dungeons or other points of interest, with quests attached to them & nameds to kill for loots & AAs.</p><p>Please, Heroics in overland ROK zones. Please.</p>

[Tandy]

<p>I would hope the dev's know how often overland heroic content is killed from a serverside standpoint.  Everytime I am in Loping Plains for example, there is hardly ever groups killing the heroic mobs. Go stand outside freethinkers and just watch some day. Its pretty much dead content aside from a few people trying really hard to do the quests for those mobs solo or in a small group. </p><p> With Kunark only being a 10 level increase I dont see much of the 'too low for this, too high for that problem' there are probably 70 to 75ish zones and 75 to 80ish zones to do.  Really dont see how there can be a problem with only a 10 level increase to deal with.  This is not like they are saying its 80 levels of zones with NO overland heroic content period.</p><p> When I group I go to an inside zone most times, and have no problem with the overland areas being solo friendly.  It caters to mulitple playstyles that way and everyone can be happy.</p>

[Zabjade]

Xaren@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><p>I would hope the dev's know how often overland heroic content is killed from a serverside standpoint.  Everytime I am in Loping Plains for example, there is hardly ever groups killing the heroic mobs. Go stand outside freethinkers and just watch some day. Its pretty much dead content aside from a few people trying really hard to do the quests for those mobs solo or in a small group. </p><p> With Kunark only being a 10 level increase I dont see much of the 'too low for this, too high for that problem' there are probably 70 to 75ish zones and 75 to 80ish zones to do.  Really dont see how there can be a problem with only a 10 level increase to deal with.  This is not like they are saying its 80 levels of zones with NO overland heroic content period.</p><p> When I group I go to an inside zone most times, and have no problem with the overland areas being solo friendly.  It caters to mulitple playstyles that way and everyone can be happy.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I full-heartedly agree, It also makes for a logical standpoint for groups and raiders as well if you stop and think about it. YOu want group members to make it to the dungeon or raid instance without being ganked by <b>VERY COMMON</b> wandering heroics </span><span style="color: #00cc00"><i>(I think they can have Heroic in certain areas and possibly the semi-rare wandering epic)</i> </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Not to mention that Soloers would like to level as well and if everything is heroic they might say Eff-this and go elsewhere. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Also there are days when you are on at a dead time, or your usual group/guild is split up and you want to level or harvest. Perhaps you are a tradeskiller not a raider where do you gather harvestables to avoid overhead that makes crafting prohibitivly expensive <i>(I know I can't sell most of what I craft other then to vender) </i></span></p>

[TaleraRis]

I'd have to say the increased separation of playstyles is something I can't quite agree with. As a soloer, I don't really want heroics peppered among the solo mobs as some warped form of "challenge" for me, but I don't want to see the overland zones turn entirely solo, either. Fact of the matter is, that solo has a reputation as too easy and it seems to have translated to the devs as a playstyle not really worth thinking about or about putting any real challenge into. Sticking the solo mobs strictly in the outdoors and removing anything that might even remotely be a danger just seems to subscribe to this viewpoint. I honestly miss things like the Upper Tunnels, where you zoned in and you had a choice, that heroic path which was good for a group or the solo path which was quite a challenge to many when we first started Splitpaw. I wish we had more dungeon content like this, with heroic and solo versions of the quests inside, with rewards appropriate to the playstyle and that would help in that playstyle. Keep the same dynamic in overland zones, with solo areas, but also heroic areas that an alert soloer could use skill to avoid. Shunting one playstyle here and the other here and locking them each out of rewarding content just seems like a bad idea.

[Armawk]

<cite>TaleraRis wrote:</cite><blockquote> Keep the same dynamic in overland zones, with solo areas, but also heroic areas that an alert soloer could use skill to avoid. </blockquote>It seems the obvious solution doesnt it? But evidently not..

[steelblueangel]

<p>well said Kcirrot!!! I agree 100% I have 3 lev 70 toons and not once have I been ask to join an over land group. Groups don't fight overland there is no loot reward there. When I group I group in unrest, valdoon, nest, and the list goes on and on. </p><p>The only time one will see a group fighting on land will be a quest mob and then when its dead they are gone. The over land areas are vacant of group activity. The only players that utilize the over land areas are solo and duo teams. I too am glad they are changing the over land areas to solo content by removing the ^^^heroics. The heroics over land areas are always empty zones with ppl passing through on the way to dungeon crawls. I always thought the over land areas were waste lands void of players that could be enjoying the areas. </p><p>To those that say they like the heroics mobs on land, I ask, where are you? I never see any groups fighting in those areas. So maybe those that say they like them must just like seeing them as they run by to their instance group zones; however, dont want to fight them. </p><p>If I were ask to group to kill heroics on land I would decline the group invite, because the lack of loot would not be worth my time. </p>

[Computer MAn]

Overland zones would be used more if they gave us places to grind in them. POF giants, BG, Giants they all were hot spots to grind even though their loot was worse. This is because overland zones are generally safer and better xp than dungeons. You can pull faster and with less risk of pulling a whole dungeon and I would rather have xp than loot anyday for the most part.

[Wildmage]

Computer MAn wrote: <blockquote>Overland zones would be used more if they gave us places to grind in them. POF giants, BG, Giants they all were hot spots to grind even though their loot was worse. This is because overland zones are generally safer and better xp than dungeons. You can pull faster and with less risk of pulling a whole dungeon and I would rather have xp than loot anyday for the most part. </blockquote>and I would prefer that overland supports solo <b>quest</b>ing more than grinding Ever<b>Quest</b> 2 isn't designed with grinding XP as a priority.  For that matter I would like dungeons to encourage groups to <b>quest</b> in order to continue going down the dungeon.

[Cocytus]

<p>A lack of heroic mobs in overland zone really depresses me.</p><p>That makes travelling waaaaaaaay too trivial and easy, honestly... On top of the fact I HATE exp grinding in indoor areas. It's just so boring to me. I do however, love running around overland zones in a group and killing heroic mobs.</p><p>Thanks for adding something in that bores the hell out of me instead of something to look forward to, Sony. *sigh* Could at least have one area per quadrant that has heroics or something...</p>

[kcirrot]

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>A lack of heroic mobs in overland zone really depresses me.</p><p>That makes travelling waaaaaaaay too trivial and easy, honestly... On top of the fact I HATE exp grinding in indoor areas. It's just so boring to me. I do however, love running around overland zones in a group and killing heroic mobs.</p><p>Thanks for adding something in that bores the hell out of me instead of something to look forward to, Sony. *sigh* Could at least have one area per quadrant that has heroics or something...</p></blockquote> Let's parse this out.  You say that the lack of heroics makes travel "way too trivial and easy".  How does that follow?  Heroics in most zones have always been off the beaten path in areas where they can be easily avoided.  Having been around since launch day, I know it was always exceedingly rare that you couldn't get where you're going because heroics guarded the way.  I don't think this has anything to do with why you don't like this. In the same paragraph, you state that you "hate" exp grinding in indoor areas.  I think we're getting to the heart of it.  In dungeons and instances, you have to actually adventure.  Most of the modern dungeons make camping difficult and the few places where you can do it are contested.  By contrast, running around killing mobs in overland zones, gives you a "waaaaaay too trivial and easy" way to level IMO that doesn't have jack to do with questing or adventuring in a game called EverQUEST! You guys need to stop the BS about "challenge".  You don't want a challenge.  A challenge is playing the content as it's designed, not exp grinding.  If that's what you want to do, the devs are giving you a very easy path to it, they're called instances.  The early RoK and late EoF instances will easily level you.  I'm sorry you won't be able to stand in one place and spam the same buttons over and over and over.  I'm sorry you're going to have to wait up to an extra week before you start raiding.  But them's the breaks.

[oneeyedlotus]

Having solo mobs in overland zones is one of the best things they can do for the solo player.  Just a small example is around lvl 40 i like to exp on the magma wormlings on the beach in lavastorm good exp and loot and it can support 2 solo players easily, but if firetoad a ^^^ pops well im outta luck now i need to find another spot to exp.  This is horrible if you just log on and hes up because theres not another solo spot that i like at that lvl range.  And lets face it getting a group post runnyeye is few and far between untill SOS.

[Kaiser Sigma]

No heroic overland content kills a lot of the atmosphere of the game, it takes away that sense of danger nd it makes it feel less real. And before anyone says this is a fantasy game; let's not forget that horses were "fixed" so you can't backpedal while riding them and melee weapons will be "fixed" so they don't proc from bows. Both "fixes" were done under the premise of "realism".

[Armawk]

<cite>kcirrot wrote:</cite><blockquote> In dungeons and instances, you have to actually adventure.  Most of the modern dungeons make camping difficult and the few places where you can do it are contested.  </blockquote><p> Yeah because going into varsoon or runnyeye for the 40th time with yet another xp group is such an adventure. Whats adventurous about it? and whats different about it from outside except that its so much easier for the group leader/tank to keep control (a big reason people xp group there)?</p>

[Leatherneck]

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TaleraRis wrote:</cite><blockquote> Keep the same dynamic in overland zones, with solo areas, but also heroic areas that an alert soloer could use skill to avoid. </blockquote>It seems the obvious solution doesnt it? But evidently not..</blockquote><p> One way to do this without it feeling too artificial would be with ringed content.</p><p>So you decide you want to put some jabberwockys on a continent.  Fine, poke a spot.  Put some named heroics in that area.  Ring that with some wandering and static heroics.  Ring that with solo mobs.</p><p>The effect is that soloists could hunt around the edges, groups could hunt in the middle and center areas.  Soloists (and travellers) could get through the area and nobody's playstyle is eliminated.</p><p>Overland groupers can still do their thing.  Dungeon-Runners can get to where they're going.  Overland Soloists are able to do their business, and no safe spots for the bot farmers.</p>

[kcirrot]

Karel@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>No heroic overland content kills a lot of the atmosphere of the game, it takes away that sense of danger nd it makes it feel less real. And before anyone says this is a fantasy game; let's not forget that horses were "fixed" so you can't backpedal while riding them and melee weapons will be "fixed" so they don't proc from bows. Both "fixes" were done under the premise of "realism". </blockquote>Heroic is just a label.  Whether the game world feels "real" or not is up to you.  And in any event, Heroics have always been limited to well defined areas that are easy to avoid. 

[Kaiser Sigma]

Running around the entire world like a pansy with zero risks involved because all mobs are solo doesn't make it feel real no matter how you want to look at it. You don't expect a hostile land like Kunark to feature little to no dangers to any person that wants to go solo.

[kcirrot]

Karel@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>Running around the entire world like a pansy with zero risks involved because all mobs are solo doesn't make it feel real <b>TO ME</b> no matter how <b>I </b><strike>you</strike> want to look at it. <strike>You</strike> <b>I </b>don't expect a hostile land like Kunark to feature little to no dangers to any person that wants to go solo. </blockquote>You were close.  But what you believe and what others believe are often different.

[Thearon]

<p>I think its been mentioned before in this thread, but I think that the reason over-land zones are not grouped in is simply because there is no real loot to be found. Most people setting up a group are interested in the rewards that follows, if you would add certain areas of the overland zones with heroics mobs and afew nameds with good drops onpar with the things in the instances you would surely see them used, or camped if you wanna call it that. </p><p>I say that either put in some interesting named heroic mobs in certain areas, give em loot, or skip it all together and go for a solo only overland. No point making it like it is now, with Heroic content nobody ever kills except for the odd quests.</p>

[Seraki]

<cite>Lornick wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Players are going to be where the good loot drops, pure and simple.  The only exception to this rule is level grinding.  If players can find somewhere that is very safe, but mobs are plentiful they may group there to grind out exp.  Players at the level cap obviously don't care about grind mobs so those locations will be barren of players at the level cap.</p><p>I personally think SOE should add some named herioc encounters outdoors, but since those named would be far more accessible they should also have a significant increase in difficulty to compensate.  IF THEY ARE GOOD LOOT DROPPING NAMED ONLY!  If the outdoor named are for quests or drop crap loot they should be the same difficulty they are now.</p></blockquote><p>This is exactly right!    Way back when the game was new people camped heroics because of loot drops or quest loot.   When all that gradually nerfed into fluff, the players migrated.    </p><p>The problem with outdoor heroic encounters that are still in game is they don't drop much right now even if they are hard to do.   People try it once or twice and then never come back.    Some of the lower dungeons also though have poor loot tables now.   Hence purpose groups for specific targets are the norm rather than exp groups in them.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>I think it would be a mistake to exclude heroic and epic mobs in overland zones. I keep seeing the argument "noone uses overland heroic content" but we all know that isn't true. I admit, overland heroics usually aren't a group target (most goto dungeons), but to say noone kills them is silly. I've been in many overland xp/quest groups ranging from Antonica & Commonlands to Tenebrous Tangle, Barren Sky, & Bonemire. Dungeons tend to have much better loot, but there are still reasons enough to kill overland heroics, be it for a change of pace for an xp group, or just mobs you need a group to kill for a particular quest.</p><p>There are solo mobs in every shared dungeon, which is a good thing IMO (stuff to kill while /lfg or waiting for members to arrive). Heroic and epic encounters should also be found in overland zones. Not only for xp/quest purposes, but also to give Norrath a sense of danger, and adventure. I agree running through a zone and getting killed isn't fun, but there needs to be some potential for frustration in any game. That's what makes a game fun, and it's what gives a sense of accomplishment.</p><p>When you make a game unchallenging, and hard to "lose" it becomes stale and boring. Noone plays checkers by themselves. Noone plays tic-tac-toe once you realize every game will be a draw. Playing a game you can't lose is no fun. I can't speak for everyone, but when I'm faced with overwhelming obstacles and defeat them after struggling for a long time and experiencing much frustration, it makes victory taste even sweeter.</p><p>When I first ran from Qeynos to Freeport dodging red aggro along the way, I felt a sense of accomplishment when I saw the tower of Freeport in the Commonlands way off in the distance. Yes, I died a few times along the way, I got frustrated, but I didn't give up, and I didn't quit the game.</p><p>When you first step out of the safe haven of your village into the vast unknown and dangerous world, you expect to find mean nasties lurking in the dark. You know you better stay well on the beaten path or you may get ambushed by a mob lurking in the shadows. You better watch your back after you hear tales of a mystic beast of epic strength wandering the shadows leaving few survivers to come back and tell the tale. Maybe... just maybe, if you are lucky enough to see this mystical beast, you call upon the aid of a few comrades and challenge it toe-to-toe and become a hero. When you leave your home village and go exploring the vast world of Norrath and all you see are non aggresive insects/snakes/mobs that you could easily kill or avoid by yourself, there is no sense of being in a hostile dangerous place.</p><p>I know there are very strong opinions from both sides about heroics/epics in overland zones, but the biggest reason I would like to see them stay is because in my mind, Norrath should be a dangerous place. There should be some areas of the world you just wouldn't want to go to without a formidable group of friends. I see no solid reason after reading all these recent threads about solo vs group content why a soloer should be able to kill every mob in an overland zone. It just doesn't make sense to me.</p>

[Celline-Layonaire]

Karel@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>Running around the entire world like a pansy with zero risks involved because all mobs are solo doesn't make it feel real no matter how you want to look at it. You don't expect a hostile land like Kunark to feature little to no dangers to any person that wants to go solo. </blockquote> Ahoy devs! Ya all must see this <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[dalaorn_eq2]

Heroic mobs add a sense of random danger to the world.  I don't want to walk around freely knowing I have a pretty good chance of staying alive.  I play games for the challenge of it, and MMOs -- especially the EverQuest franchise -- should not be an exception to that rule.

[Kaiser Sigma]

<cite>kcirrot wrote:</cite><blockquote>You were close.  But what you believe and what others believe are often different. </blockquote>And since I can apply the exact same logic to you, please refrain from quoting me if you can't post something that backs up your senseless need to dumb down a game.

[jasonwade]

<p>After reading through the majority of previous posts on this topic I think that it would be a mistake to make the overland zones 100% solo.  However, I do think that it would be wise to not mix heroic and solo content <b>in close proximity of each other</b> in these zones.  I liked the idea one poster proposed regarding limiting heroic content in overland zones to "places of interest" and/or "dungeon/instance zone entrances".  This would allow developers to create overland zones that are 80% solo content (to accommodate soloers and those folks who are simply "passing through", but would still leave 20% of the zone as challenging content for those that are headed to challenging areas anyway (with an odd pathing heroic or epic in a set area to spice things up maybe and make the zone seem a bit more alive).  The solo players would know which areas to avoid and the heroic content would not interrupt their gameplay.  The real challenge will be for the developers to make the content in the overland zones interesting by implementing dynamic/interesting quests and rewards, etc. to draw more players to them.</p><p>Another poster also mentioned that "untamed" lands (like Kunark) should not be safe to travel through for a lone adventurer anyway.  Maybe certain overland zones (or areas of these zones) should be closer to 60% solo/40% heroic.  The further that you travel from an established civilized area (Qeynos, Freeport, Neriak, Kelethin, etc.) the more heroic content you will see - with the highest number of heroics near dungeon entrances and places of interest (as previously stated).  This would make more logical sense as well.</p><p>Dungeons are another matter.  While I think that the <u>entrance</u> areas inside public dungeons should include some solo content - deeper areas of public dungeons and all areas in group instances should contain heroic content that encourages "dungeon crawling" with a group.  This is the essence of most RPGs and it makes sense that the harder challenges that would require grouping would be found in dungeon settings (where they have had time to gain strength - away from the interference of civilization and the everyday adventurer).  With this said, I am surprised that no soloers suggested that SOE implement a few challenging, solo instances!  This would allow soloers to experience playing in a dungeon setting (including puzzles, traps, storylines, etc.) without the need to group.  These "solo-instances" would limit entry to solo players (maybe even groups of 3 or less, depending on flexibility of content).  Not only would these instances accommodate the player who prefers to solo, but they would more than likely be utilized by those of us who are locked out of other instanced zones or who want something to do while we wait for friends to log in, raids to start, etc.</p>

[SerChandos]

<p>I really like this idea...but a lot depends upon how they implement it.</p><p>Take a zone like Loping. There are large areas that mostly go completely unused. The entrance to Freethinkers and the Lyrech valley are two areas populated with Heroics. With the exception of the mobs needed for quests nobody hunts in these areas. </p><p>However, if they were to change these mobs to solo mobs that would not satisfy me.</p><p>I completely agree with the comments made by others in this thread that this idea will take a lot of the challenge and threat from overland areas.</p><p> What i would like SOE to do is give the a large level range to the solo mobs.</p><p>So if the expansion is for 60-80 make some of the solo mobs in the overland area 85+ solo mobs.</p><p>This would do a number of things:</p><p>1. Make travelling more risky.</p><p>2. Extend the life of the zone up past the next expansion.</p><p>3. Extend the challenge of the zone up past the time when our toons get the latest and greatest equipment from the expansion.</p><p>Soloers WANT a challenge. </p>

[kcirrot]

Karel@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>kcirrot wrote:</cite><blockquote>You were close.  But what you believe and what others believe are often different. </blockquote>And since I can apply the exact same logic to you, please refrain from quoting me if you can't post something that backs up your senseless need to dumb down a game. </blockquote>I don't need to post anything.  The devs stated that their information supports the change.  I'm just arguing for a continuation of the change to solo focused overlands. By the way, if you "dumb" something "down", then you're reducing the dumb factor.  Which is exactly what getting heroics out of the overland will do! <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   You youngsters should think about your internet colloquialisms before using them.