PVP ETHICS

[CompStomp]

<p>PVP ethics is a huge deal to me. Im an old timer from Venekor named Ahabb. I remember most of the fights on Venekor were as fair as possible in T7. Naggy on the other hand is horrid.....People screen drag to lock you into combat for 30sec + while they warp all over, on and off islands in kos and back again, Zone baiting ect. There really is no end to it as when you try to talk to people about it the answer you get it ''well so and so did this also from your guild or your faction'' and no one really wants it to stop. To say good fight to someone happens maybe 5% of the time.</p><p>So the reason i made this post is because i want to hear from the T7 guild leaders on this question: ''Are pvp Ethics important to you? Do you tell your members to respect the enemy?''</p><p> Im thinking of trying to rally the non cheap pvpers onto one server, and any info, opinions ect are appreciated. So please inform readers of this post the status of the pvp on Your Server, the Ethics involved, the amount of pvp available, anything someone would want to consider if they were to think about transfering there.</p><p>Lastly, would be nice if leaders of multiple factions could behave themselves enough to keep communications open and professional for the sake of pvp. If youre a guild leader that wants to hold the integrity of pvp up, and improve it for everyone i emplore you to speak to other guild leaders of other factions and servers and try to give this situation a new start.</p><p>With the Exodus from Xfers i imagine many servers have felt a lil empty, i think this is the hook to spice it up again, and foreal, as someone whos been to Naggy and how they Boast to be the best, its all talk. There's no fighting going on unless there is bait game played with the exception of a few outstanding people.</p><p>I know Xfering servers is a crazy idea, specially trying to convince massive amounts of people to do it is near impossible, but if you cant have people drop the baggage from yesterday you cant really remedy the situation. It takes ALOT of respect. So if you want to let go of hostility and get good fights, talk with other guild leaders and start building that line of communication. I think its very possible if not to rally those who want real pvp to transfer then for multiple guilds to make amends and respect other players.</p><p>                                                                                                                     -Ahabb</p>

[Wilde_Night]

On Venekor (and on our previous EQ1 Zek servers) Shadow Guard holds to a rule of ethics.  We are some of the few.  Most, it seems, have the FPS PvP point of view and us 'old timers' are going out of style.  But so long as one original member of our guild exists, we will hold to our rules of engagement.

[gaedii]

why do you think i went back to venekor?  that's just one of the reasons <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[yellowbelly08]

<p>I have never exploited since server launch. Many others would also not dream of doing so. Exploiters should be reported and we must persevere. A certain one eyed charcter on his alt was up to his old tricks yesterday, such people hold no respect among the community, reputation is all we have, hence many would not dare to exploit. Persevere on this server however as its the only real representation of your skills. I agree screen dragging is abhorent eg a zerging x2 of a certain guild did this as last was dying so our grp was left in combat when Onyx flew in and detitled. Incidents will happen, persevere, report, and try to have fun......</p><p>Galoro</p>

[Grayspirit]

<p>For the millionth time:  Venekor has quality, Nagafen has quantity.</p><p>I'd rather fight tooth and nail everywhere I go against people that leave their groups to die, evac'ers, cliff divers, lamers, [Removed for Content] talkers and zergers with the occasional good full on-out of power-drag out fight here and there like it is now on nagafen as opposed to looking all night and finding solos/duos everywhere and finding 1 good fight a night that used to happen on venekor.</p><p>But that's just me, and that's why I'll never come back to venekor.</p>

[Simera]

<p>What Broncas said. </p><p>Sounds more like you had a bad day on Naggy than a 'naggy vs venekor ethics' thing.. You seemed perfectly happy on Naggy up till now, Ahabb? I personally don't see any difference at all between 'ethics' on both servers, zero, none.. both appear to have the same ratio of losers to fair players by population, my estimate would be it runs about 18%. I can with all confidence say I have had better quality fights by far on Naggy than I ever encountered on Venekor..not only honorable, theres ten times more people who run solo, duo, grps of three, four..on Naggy. Part of the 'stuff' that makes fights fun. Stuff that was becoming non existant on Venekor. </p><p>It's not just 'quantity vs quality"...with quantity comes more of both types of fights.. I call bs if you're trying to say every fight you have on Naggy is with cheaters. There's more of both because there's tons more period. </p>

[CompStomp]

Purity really rocks, and i luv being here, i just hate everyone i fight! not many good sports out there at all. =/

[CompStomp]

<p>Its proly just my title but i cant get a good fight outta anyone =/</p><p>And no not every fight, just 95% of them.</p><p>I just think we had a better server before the big 3 guilds transfered, and one went exile =/</p>

[Meatmonster]

Broncas@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><p>For the millionth time:  Venekor has quality, Nagafen has quantity.</p><p>I'd rather fight tooth and nail everywhere I go against people that leave their groups to die, evac'ers, cliff divers, lamers, [I cannot control my vocabulary] talkers and zergers with the occasional good full on-out of power-drag out fight here and there like it is now on nagafen as opposed to looking all night and finding solos/duos everywhere and finding 1 good fight a night that used to happen on venekor.</p><p>But that's just me, and that's why I'll never come back to venekor.</p></blockquote>  The quality on Venekor isnt like it used to be, either. Cliff diving, abandoning groups, zerging, etc. has become alot more common since the merger. It started with just one of the Qeynos EU guilds, and seems to have spread pretty well from there. Too much of the "quality" ended up going to Nagafen I think.

[Grayspirit]

Safia@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><p>It's not just 'quantity vs quality"...with quantity comes more of both types of fights.. I call bs if you're trying to say every fight you have on Naggy is with cheaters. There's more of both because there's tons more period. </p></blockquote> You're right on that Safia, not everyone on naggy is cheaters. I've had lots of good fights without lame activity. It just seems back on venny there wasnt as many of said 'lame' activity as it seems to be so common and commonly accepted as there is on naggy is I guess what I'm saying.

[Magius789]

Very well said ahabb.  I remember grouping with you a few times when you are on Venekor for some PvP.  Although there is a lot of back and fourth shouting matches between GW and SoS I think for the most part most of the members respect each other and enjoy the PvP encounters they have.  Personally if I'm involved in a guild that doesn't take action against people who exploit I will leave it.  I enjoy helping a guild grow and learn new things but I'd rather be just "privan" instead of  "oh privan he's part of so and so guild that doesn't care about integrity".  And so far BoD is full of some really good peeps!

[Ameniel]

<p>Ethics to me is just not warping, screen dragging, or any other type of cheat/exploit. </p><p>As far as honor on the battlefield, there is no such thing. </p>

[convict]

Aeviel@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>On Venekor (and on our previous EQ1 Zek servers) Shadow Guard holds to a rule of ethics.  We are some of the few.  <b><span style="color: #ff3300">Most, it seems, have the FPS PvP point of view and us 'old timers'</span></b> are going out of style.  But so long as one original member of our guild exists, we will hold to our rules of engagement.</blockquote> Whoa! FPS point of view? What point of view is that? My guild started out playing fps years ago, having matches and playing in online tourny's.. Far as Im concerned, thats where you find real pvp'rs.. Not people running away, not people only fighting if the odds are 6 vs 1, not running from even cons and lower because you left town and forgot your raid.. Im curious what this fps point of view is, because I know what the mmo point of view is, pvp ONLY when it's a win without a doubt situation.. If your going to say the fps point of view is about cheating, then thats not the fps point of view, but all online games.

[Hecafe1]

Naggy's so great!! and they still find time to post on Venny forums!! lol back to OP Yes ethics are important to some people Shadow Guard have got to be my most popular foes for serious <u><b>LACK </b></u>of lameness (respect where its due). I try to leave a zone if im defeated fairly it goes back to EQ1 and how i feel about fairness, mostly though pvp is a orgy of violence played by frustrated blue collar workers, bullied middle management and school kids with zits in places you don't wanna know about, imo <img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I went to naggy with the original merges i didn't like so I went back to Venny, each to their own i guess.

[Wilde_Night]

<p>Negative.</p><p>The older MMO generation does not only fight when the odds are in our favor, retreating because one is merely solo.  I should have clarified my FPS comment and I apologize.  I try so hard not to offend unless intended.</p><p>The comment is in referance to the mentality that has taken the younger generation of gamers.  I know not where it truly comes from, because I have met some really outstanding gamers who are 25 or younger and hold similar ethics and ideals about rules of engagement.  And some 30 + year olds who must be frustrated in real life with something to want to act out as they do in a video game.  I do know that from watching many tournaments of Unreal, Counterstrike, Halo and such that there is a more "dog eat dog, screw 'em, do what you must to win" attitude associated with those types of games.  There are exceptions to every rule, but it seems that attitude is normal for such games.</p><p>Hence, those people are drawn to the pvp aspect and make it difficult for those of us who choose to play with no revive zerging, no corpse humping, no cliff diving, no disrespecting the enemy, should stand and fight in the face of death mentality.  And, sure... sometimes we do retreat.  We are a roleplaying guild and although game mechanics make us immortal, death is not always something you want to deal with.</p>

[Silvershadows]

<p>IMHO PVP should be hard and awesomely brutal...be it a RP or non RP server.  Why in the world would you fight a fight you knew without a doubt that you were going to lose.  Ive watched alot of PVPers some good some not, and the good ones pic and choose there battles. If someone wants to protect there title then i say let em protect it in any posible way.  And maybe that person that is killing you and ganking the [Removed for Content] out of you is an alt of someone you killed when they were trying to do something other than pvp or zerked them, and they thought you wronged them... So they are gettin a little revenge, i bet everyone has there own "kill roster"  errrraaaa...  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  i know i do, and if you make it on that roster for what ever reason i will kill you on spot (or attempt) until you leave or i get board.  ITs a PVP server for a reason, if you got a problem with it go to a [Removed for Content] server... and you dont have to worry about gettin killed by some twinky that put alot of time and coin into there char.  </p><p>Vote Yes on lvl locking twinks...</p>

[Phineus]

<p> I been seeing a lot of cowardly activity but very minimal cheating. People are doing much more to avoid fights and or stay out of combat. Case in point. Saw a full group of champs, zoned over to follow them. When we zoned one ld so was just 3 that zoned over cause we were 4 to start with. The group of 6 champs flew off then evacd to avoid possibly fighting 4 of us. Lots of people are avoiding pvp contact unless holding a numerical advantage of 2 to 1. So I been biding my time running the cowards out of any zone I see em in.</p><p> I been pvping daily and havent seen any shady activity in over a month. Zerging is at an all time high but its fun to kill the same people 5 times before they can zerg you down even tho they had a numerical advantage to start with. Maybe if they get some pvp gear they wont suck so bad. </p>

[AnAnimatedcorpse]

<p>Seems to me that the farther our RP server becomes removed from being an RP server the worse it has become.</p><p>Take titles out of the game and a character can claim notoriety by being notoriously awesome.</p>

[Rmon]

<p>There was a point where i tried to do a lot of solo pvp.  I found that some passers by (fp and Q) were able to sit and watch my one v one.  Other passers by were physically unable to do it.  I would "/say one v one dont engage" if they were on my Q side, and they would hesistate for a moment but eventually jump in to help me out.  I really hated it when a fellow Q would jump in and kill my opponent, despite my best efforts.  Others would literally CAMP my one v ones, and ruin every one.</p><p>Ive seen all of the crap.  Some people sit and watch my entire one v one until the match is one second from being over, then they shoot a single arrow so they get the faction (and sometimes fame).</p><p><b>My guild doesnt pvp much</b>, but when we do I don't consider it dishonorable to kill a person harvesting with my full group -- thats just how the server works.  We do try to keep greifing down to a minimum, but we dont consider it dishonorable to greif all day in a contested dungeon.  If there are other FPs in POA with us, I would consider it OK to kill them at the spawn over and over until they leave the zone.</p><p>Also, our guild is still VERY new compared to most.  Most of our members are in need of gear, and if a new player joins our pvp group I wouldnt consider it dishonorable to go back and clear a group again for another round of tokens.</p><p>We do not, however, do any of that screen dragging, immunity breaking, warping, engage/disengage tricks etc.  It seems like I fall victem to another new goofy pvp exploit every time I go to Baren Sky.</p><p>-Raker, Grey Eminence</p>

[Brimestar]

Ahabb, if you ever see someone with the Pie tag doing a screen drag/warp/exploiting let me or one of the officers know and we'll take care of it.  I won't touch the zerg thing cos its part of the game, if one is fighting near a respawn point and ppl keep coming well...it will happen...Just the other day Cunk, Clipper and myself took on 11 Qs near the TT spire (Micegirl's name standing out cos I know her) but her and her associates died not once, not twice, but 3 times b4 they killed us all. Was it fun killing them over and over...yes...was i mad cos I died...Yes...But we couldn't get away from the spire...But I digress, we hold Pie to certain standards....Not a you line your troops up, i line mine up and we beat the holy hell out of one another, but a lil guerilla style...

[Grayspirit]

How can you get mad at anyone zerging you when your guild does it and has always done it regularly, Brimestar? Even in some of your videos you do it. I know this is kind of starting a flame but just seems kind of hypocritical

[Captain Apple Darkberry]

Broncas@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>How can you get mad at anyone zerging you when your guild does it and has always done it regularly, Brimestar? Even in some of your videos you do it. I know this is kind of starting a flame but just seems kind of hypocritical</blockquote><span style="color: #ff3300">Seemed that Brimestar was saying "Everyone zergs, but if you see any Pie <i>really</i> exploiting then let me know". Zerging will exist until SoE tweaks revive rules and only really matters to most people because of infamy anyway. Sooner or later SoE will alter things to curb it, I hope; but it really doesn't compare to screen dragging or jumping off a cliff and then minimizing EQ2. </span>

[Scatimus]

<p>i would think that most guild leaders would like think that all of their guild memers pvp ethically.  unfortunatly, that is just not the case.  in some cases there are hundreds of people in some guilds, and a single person just can not see over them all, effectively.  in my guild, the motd says that we are not to rez zerg, farm tokens, etc...  in my experiences no on has ever rez zerged in any of my groups.  im  sure that people will dispute that statement, but it is true.  i we lose a fight, we regroup and try to figure out what we did wrong.  then we come back a little stronger and try again.  we win some we lose some.  i dont get angry when we lose, i dont cheat to win and i dont do anything unethical to win.  </p><p>if i get in a good fight, wether i win or lose, i will bow to the person i fought with, if they are around.</p><p>just my 2 cents.</p><p>-Mu</p>

[othera1]

Yeah one thing i HATE is like 50 people just running around killing 1 person at a time -.- oh and lately on nagefen(prob on other pvp servers to) there has been a few groups of 3 or so lvl 50's in RE just sitting in lvl 39 mobs waiting for newbies to run past and start fighting then bam there dead usualy wizzards warlocks and rangers n stuff do this well classes that can nuke newbies once they get to like half hp :/ i dont like this type of fighting and im ganna get to 55 and camp them to stop it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and i don't know if any of my guild does stuff like this but i try not to. also hate corpse humpers and people who laugh at you(i laugh when greys try taking me down cause i hate that ALOT and when people try over n over) but ive only ever had ONE fight where it was nice we both had pets so we talked awhile <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and he congragulated me even to i lost(i was 22 he was 25 <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)

[Tatate]

It's PvP, there are no ethics.

[Brimestar]

<p>Thx Apple, Yes I said I was mad (Don't you get mad when you die sometimes)...Doesn't mean I have to like it, but I accept it; I am human....However when it comes to hypocracy, Its kinda like 3-somes...I'm a hypocrite when it comes to that....2 women + a man, thats fine by me....2 men + a woman...Well, we have an issue on our hands cos I hope I'm not the other man....</p><p>P.S. You think SOE will amend my analogy/example <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Grayspirit]

In that case I completely agree, sir!

[Armawk]

<cite>Rmones wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Some people sit and watch my entire one v one until the match is one second from being over, then they shoot a single arrow so they get the faction (and sometimes fame).</p></blockquote> That doesnt work does it? I thought you got nothing if you joined after health was that low?

[Norrsken]

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rmones wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Some people sit and watch my entire one v one until the match is one second from being over, then they shoot a single arrow so they get the faction (and sometimes fame).</p></blockquote> That doesnt work does it? I thought you got nothing if you joined after health was that low?</blockquote>health needs to be above 50% for your first attack. If its below 10% you even get a dishonorable kill and a reduciton of faction. Whee. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but its quite easy to pop an arrow in the beginning of the fight, or a debuff or something else not quite apparent, and get the infamy/status/faction for the kill.

[Phineus]

 Nothin beats a good double stuffin sometimes.

[Elwin]

Cloven@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><p>Seems to me that the farther our RP server becomes removed from being an RP server the worse it has become.</p><p>Take titles out of the game and a character can claim notoriety by being notoriously awesome.</p></blockquote><p> Best thing i've read on the forums for a long time. Kudos to you Cloven <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </p><p>The cowards/chearters .... they're just title huggers. </p><p>That being said there is still a lot of fp and exiles I have great respect for. </p>

[Bozidar]

<p>I have a few ethical guidelines that I follow.</p><p>1) Absolutely no griefing, unless... </p><p>Let's face it, there are special circumstances.  If i'm farming for names, quest mobs, harvest nodes.. i'll grief ya.  There are other times when a person gets a reputation, be it as a runner (who never engages in a fair fight), an exploiter, or a griefer themselves.. those people I tend to grief into the ground if I have the time.</p><p>2) No exploiting, ever, for any reason.</p><p>I don't stand up on a soap box in guild chat and enforce these rules.. but when i go out with a pvp group (usually guildies) I do make sure we follow these guidelines and spread the word throughout our players that this is how we carry ourselves in this guild.</p><p>You have purchased Raike's Comments for 2cp.</p>

[Armawk]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have a few ethical guidelines that I follow.</p><p>1) Absolutely no griefing, unless... </p><p>Let's face it, there are special circumstances.  If i'm farming for names, quest mobs, harvest nodes.. i'll grief ya.  There are other times when a person gets a reputation, be it as a runner (who never engages in a fair fight), an exploiter, or a griefer themselves.. those people I tend to grief into the ground if I have the time.</p><p>2) No exploiting, ever, for any reason.</p></blockquote><p>Add "never buy plat" and you got my idea of a playstyle sorted too.</p><p>I would also add, (for me, not saying people SHOULD do this), unless actively engaged on something else, often group with the obviously confused newb suffering in antonica/commonlands. Helps build the community and its often great fun too. </p>

[ShesSoSurreal]

<cite>CompStomp wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>PVP ethics is a huge deal to me. Im an old timer from Venekor named Ahabb. I remember most of the fights on Venekor were as fair as possible in T7. Naggy on the other hand is horrid.....People screen drag to lock you into combat for 30sec + while they warp all over, on and off islands in kos and back again, Zone baiting ect. There really is no end to it as when you try to talk to people about it the answer you get it ''well so and so did this also from your guild or your faction'' and no one really wants it to stop.</p><p>So the reason i made this post is because i want to hear from the T7 guild leaders on this question: ''Are pvp Ethics important to you? Do you tell your members to respect the enemy?''</p><p> Im thinking of trying to rally the non cheap pvpers onto one server, and any info, opinions ect are appreciated. So please inform readers of this post the status of the pvp on Venekor, the Ethics involved, the amount of pvp available, anything someone would want to consider if they were to think about transfering here.</p><p>Lastly, would be nice if leaders of multiple factions could behave themselves enough to keep communications open and professional for the sake of pvp. If youre a guild leader that wants to hold the integrity of pvp up, and improve it for everyone i emplor you to speak to other guild leaders of other factions and servers and try to give this situation a new start.</p><p>With the Exodus from Xfers i imagine the server has felt a lil empty, i think this is the hook to spice it up again, and foreal, as someone whos been to Naggy and all the trash they talk about Venekor, you guys here, the OG's, are better players by far. All Naggy has is Mean.</p><p>                                                                                                                     -Ahabb</p><p>PS-Props up to everyone i know, miss you guys n how things used to be, real pvp, and real pvpers</p></blockquote> Bad ethics are bound to happen on both servers, Naggy is just known more for it. There are more people there, thus more competition and more reason to cheat perhaps? I don't know. I don't see a lot of cheating on Venekor really, and I don't feel like we are too short on pvp. Granted there are some game mechanics that need to be fixed, because there will always be someone who would rather a cheap kill. But we can't do anything about that, just hope and see if Soe fixes these kind of things. Revenge killing/zerging are the biggest issues I have yet to encounter on a daily basis. Some say the biggest problem the server has is population (Which btw I think is untrue, its just a lack of people wanting to risk dying [all factions included] *remove/fix infamy ftw*). Id rather a slightly lower population then one that you can't move without getting attacked by a raid. I certainly won't go out searching for pvp, because it's a waste of time, but I'll be damned if I am trying to get a quest done and Q's don't show up. Id perfer quality of quantity anyday and I do my best to make sure that my guild upholds that concept. I feel bad for folks that feel the need to cheat to win, I would never support it or allow it within Sabotage. Unfortunatly all it takes is a handfull of cheaters to make things go down hill, and theres no way everyone will sit here and agree not to cheat. I won't let hacks or low population ruion the fun I have in game with my friends. It would be nice to get more "non cheap" folks onto one server, but unless your willing to pay the 50 bucks for them to transer AND for the cheaters that are already here to transfer to Naggy, then it just doesnt seem like it would make a difference.

[Spyderbite]

Cloven@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><p>Seems to me that the farther our RP server becomes removed from being an RP server the worse it has become.</p><p>Take titles out of the game and a character can claim notoriety by being notoriously awesome.</p></blockquote> Well said. /nods