Why fight un-armed?

[Uumuuanu]

<p>Ok, so I have a 50 bruiser (or soon to be) and I honestly can't understand the purpose of fighting unarmed as required by some of the AA lines.  Why would one want to loose out on the stats from TWO items (admittedly at 50 its only about 20str/20agi/20sta range for most items and under 100hp/power, but at 70, it could be 40-50 on stats and several hundred points to power/health.</p><p> Also since I can't see the mechanics of the game, do we get a damage rating on our empty hands like weapons do?  How does that work, I mean if a weapon has a 50 damage rating, how does an empty hand rate?</p><p> I also see so many saying do it until you are 70 then use a weapon,  I guess I am totally confused?</p>

[Supp]

<p>Fighting unarmed, in concert with the STR AA line, gives you the equivalent of a fabled duel wielders.</p><p>If you run /weapon_stat (I think that's it), you can start to see how powerful unarmed is. </p><p>Basically, fighting unarmed is like having a twohander. Even though you have two fists, you make one strike, but a powerful strike. When you combine with the STR line to give yourself a 96% doubleattack chance, it's like weilding a pair of twohanders. </p><p>However, once you get to the top end, you can fairly easily purchase broker fabled dual weilders that exceed what your STR line enhanced unarmed equivalent weaponry is capable of.</p><p>At that point, the whole STR line becomes junk, hence the crux you probably hear so much complaining about. We want to be able to use the STR line doubleattack, but we want to do it while armed. Others classes recieve this benefit up to 40% base doubleattack I believe. </p>

[PhozFa]

think of STR AA line as a bit of a blessing. You get some good weapons for free while trying to level. Getting gear every 10 levels is bad enough and as a tank/dps weapons are crucial to soloing and grouping.  Sure you do sacrifice some stats but IMO the most important aspect of those 2 slots is damage and effects (procs or any additional effect). but I'd admit stats would play a role if it was uber enough, +300 STR on a 30DR DW would be nice

[Madmoon]

<cite>Supple wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>However, once you get to the top end, you can fairly easily purchase broker fabled dual weilders that exceed what your STR line enhanced unarmed equivalent weaponry is capable of.</p></blockquote>Huh-hoooo!  I want your bank account.

[Astornoth]

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Supple wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>However, once you get to the top end, you can fairly easily purchase broker fabled dual weilders that exceed what your STR line enhanced unarmed equivalent weaponry is capable of.</p></blockquote>Huh-hoooo!  I want your bank account. </blockquote> Easly purchase in this sentence means is availble but I`m sure it wont be cheap do <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />./ps it`s not that importanat coz I can bet that best weapons for bruiser are no-trade as all chars items. 

[Supp]

<cite>Astornoth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Supple wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>However, once you get to the top end, you can fairly easily purchase broker fabled dual weilders that exceed what your STR line enhanced unarmed equivalent weaponry is capable of.</p></blockquote>Huh-hoooo!  I want your bank account. </blockquote> Easly purchase in this sentence means is availble but I`m sure it wont be cheap do <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />./ps it`s not that importanat coz I can bet that best weapons for bruiser are no-trade as all chars items. </blockquote>Yes, I mean to say they are available, but not cheap. If you kept an eye on the market, you could pay 10-15p for each of em. You can also keep an eye out for raiding guilds that are auctioning off notrade items. This is all assuming youre not a raiding character.

[Madmoon]

Widely available, but not cheap.  I've not seen a Fabled that runs 10 plat, but that's Antonia Bayle.  Each server has it's own economy.  On the other hand, once you reach 70, there are some relatively cheap Legendaries that will do, if you adorn them.  They will match bare STR AAs, and then the stats push it over the top.  Closing Time comes to mind, for example, or the Flowing Blood staff.  They can be found for 10 plat, and occasionally less.  'Course, that might all change with Kunark (shrug.)

[Uumuuanu]

<p>Ok, so let me get this right.  Until I am 70, go down the STR AA line and go bare handed, then when I get to 70, respec AAs and get some weapons?</p><p>Why would sony basically force bruisers to respec? (not that they dont other classes, just saying).  Ugh, seems kinda stupid to me, but if it works I guess it works.  Needless to say I will try some of it tonight.  I can already burst damage most mobs down before they take me out, so if STR AA make that easier, then I am all for it.  </p><p>Thanks for the feedback.</p>

[Bulzie]

I'm at new Bruiser at level 15.  Wish I would have read this before laying down some hefty gold on weapons.  For the Str Line, do you recommend maxing each AA before moving to next?  Should I put no points into the Brawler line (I think i have a few in the Heal spot) and instead max out Str line first?  Will be nice not to have to worry about the weapon slots.

[PhozFa]

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Supple wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>However, once you get to the top end, you can fairly easily purchase broker fabled dual weilders that exceed what your STR line enhanced unarmed equivalent weaponry is capable of.</p></blockquote>Huh-hoooo!  I want your bank account. </blockquote>If your broke you can get kos fabled on easy raids that most guilds with a raid force are capable of doing now a days.

[Bulzie]

I'm not sure going bare handed is the best option for lower levels until you are able to get enough points into the Str line.  I'm level 16 and put all my AA points into Str line, I think I am now at 4,4 with no points yet into the 3rd one that gives double attack.  When I compare the bare fisted to using my weapons (and I bought a few nice weapons, primary has good stats and some really nice procs), I'm not doing as much dmg quick enough using bare fists.  I assume this is because I do not have enough AA points in the tree to benefit the most.  I hope when I get more points in the the double attack level, it will be more viable. So unless I'm missing something, I'd probably recommend not going to bare fist until you have enough AA to make it worthwhile. 

[Lana]

<cite>Uumuuanu wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, so let me get this right.  Until I am 70, go down the STR AA line and go bare handed, then when I get to 70, respec AAs and get some weapons?</p><p>Why would sony basically force bruisers to respec? (not that they dont other classes, just saying).  Ugh, seems kinda stupid to me, but if it works I guess it works.  Needless to say I will try some of it tonight.  I can already burst damage most mobs down before they take me out, so if STR AA make that easier, then I am all for it.  </p><p>Thanks for the feedback.</p></blockquote>No one is <i>forcing</i> you to do anything. You can be un-armed at 70 if you want to  if you don't find any weapons that are better than your bare fists. Or if you like the bare fist thing (many people do) then stick with it! The AA tree is basically a list of options, some options are better than others, and some options are only good for certain things. The thing that most people seem to miss with AA trees is that you can't have everything. There is a give and take for most AA specs. Want double attack? Go un-armed. Have weapons that will create more DPS than the un-armed tree? Roll out a different spec, or don't. In the end you can do whatever the hell you want to do.

[ganjookie]

It would be nice if SoE didnt give into the RP whiners on this issue. It would be nice and easy (just making up this easy part) if there where 2 parts of the STR line. <hr /> <b>Tiger Strength </b>Increases strength by 4 for each rank (GOOD) <b>Pressure Point </b>An <strike>unarmed </strike>melee attack that cannot be blocked, parried, deflected, or riposted and lowers their crushing resistance (corrected) <b>Relentless Punches</b> If no weapons +96% double attack If weapons are equipped +30-45% double attack <b>Claw Reversal </b>+riposte (good) <hr />Allow pressure point to not depend on weapons.  Allow <b>Relentless Punches</b> to work w/ and w/o weapons.  there should not be favortisim shown towards the RPers who like to be weaponless.  Give us choices!!

[Couching]

Lana@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Uumuuanu wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, so let me get this right.  Until I am 70, go down the STR AA line and go bare handed, then when I get to 70, respec AAs and get some weapons?</p><p>Why would sony basically force bruisers to respec? (not that they dont other classes, just saying).  Ugh, seems kinda stupid to me, but if it works I guess it works.  Needless to say I will try some of it tonight.  I can already burst damage most mobs down before they take me out, so if STR AA make that easier, then I am all for it.  </p><p>Thanks for the feedback.</p></blockquote>No one is <i>forcing</i> you to do anything. You can be un-armed at 70 if you want to  if you don't find any weapons that are better than your bare fists. Or if you like the bare fist thing (many people do) then stick with it! The AA tree is basically a list of options, some options are better than others, and some options are only good for certain things. The thing that most people seem to miss with AA trees is that you can't have everything. There is a give and take for most AA specs. Want double attack? Go un-armed. Have weapons that will create more DPS than the un-armed tree? Roll out a different spec, or don't. In the end you can do whatever the hell you want to do. </blockquote>It didn't make sense since for lv 70 brawler, we have only 4 lines to choose comparing to other classes with 5 lines. Let me say it clear, for most lv70 brawlers, we didn't have a choice since even EoF legendary weapon such as closing time or cog tuner is better than bare fist at lv70. Why the hell we have to stay in str line since it clearly makes you <i><b>Weaker</b></i>! Let's check war tree or crusader tree, is there any line clearly to make you weaker for lv70  char?  None.  There might be some popular lines but there isn't any line to make yourself weaker! See, that's why str line is ridiculous and needs a fix. I don't care we can get double attack from<b><i> fixed </i></b>str line or not, but at least we need a line which strengths lv70 char rather than makes us weaker!

[PhozFa]

I do think if we max out the whole STR AA line it should be better than lower fabled items just because all the AAs you would have to dump that you can't use in the other lines. Makes sense to me atleast. Either way whatever I can deal with the way the STR is now.

[Couching]

Actually no, if you get a pair of legendary weapon or fabled weapons, and put aa on int and wis line. Your survivability and dps are higher. Don't forget, if you don't get str line, you can get better use of your aa points. Str line just give you a free legendary/semi fabled weapon without any stats. Also, you can't put adornments on your hands. Let's say it in this way, after you hit lv 70, how hard to get cog tuner or closing time. It's about 50g on cog and 1p on closing time. It's affordable for even most casual players. Not to say, you get extra 16 points to spend on your brawler tree. If you insist to get str line, you make yourself weaker. /shrug PS: Mathematic analysis of bare fist model: The bare fist is equal to a 2h 53.2 damage rating weapon at lv 70 but very low damage spread ratio, 1.66 only. With extra 20 dps bonus and 96% double attack, it roughly equals to 2 DW 63 damage rating weapon in solo. BUT, you have extra low hit ratio since fist skill is only 350 comparing to 400+ crushing, slashing or piercing skill in offensive stance. For example, I have 1579 atk with weapons but only 1424 atk with bare fist. ATK is very important for hit ratio and damages spectrum of your hit. Also, you have 50-60 less str and 400+ hp less. Not to say you have less than 4 damage proc from weapons. Moreover, bare fist has very low damage spread ratio, it means it benefits critical hit MUCH less than regular weapons (usually damage spread ratio is 3). In other word, you get less benefits from int line. Not to say, you have extra 16 points to spend in brawler tree.

[Madmoon]

<p>Every class has a "useless" AA line... ours happens to be so only at the end.  Sure, I would like to be able to consider STR after 70, but I'm pretty happy with KoS AAs right now.</p><p>As far as the STR-until-when-question that keeps coming up - and I'm not knocking anyone for asking it, I certainly did - couching's answer (above) should be stickied somehow =)  That's the whole ball of wax, nicely written.</p>

[Couching]

Brawler should get fist skill bonus in offensive as well as crushing, piercing and slashing. Otherwise, there is no point to use our bare fist in str line. We did less dps in defensive with 2 DW 63 weapons than 2 53 DW weapons in offensive. It has to be fixed either changing str line or giving fist skill bonus in offensive stance.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

I know some people will get upset about this... but I still think that "unarmed" should be two dual wield weapons based on crushing, and that our fist weapons (handwraps and knuckles) should just improve the damage and give stats. As nice as it is to have a class feature of having a weapon that scales with level, it's not going to be used in a game where being disarmed literally never happens (at worst it's a debuff from one raid encounter). So you can still do low end damage when your gear breaks... like you'll keep playing when missing the other 90% of your gear's stats. And honestly, it gives something of an unfair advantage of having Legendary quality weapons for free for spending 16 AA's. It's unfair for other classes that don't get it while leveling, and it's unfair for the Brawler that that's the best they can do when you reach the cap and find weapons that give better damage, effectively becoming a useless AA choice at that point. I'll be the first to say that when I envision my character fighting... it's with bare hands, not punch daggers. But honestly this mechanic is getting old and needs to be updated so that we don't have an AA line that is basically useless with upcoming Epic weapons.

[Leatherneck]

My monk is 49 ATM.  I suspect I'll go bare-handed till 70 (or 80 if I'm levelling him that slowly) and at that point do a AA respec.  I still have my freebie, but even if I didn't, 10g or 1p is a paltry price to pay compared to the amount of money I didn't spend continuously upgrading gear.

[LuciferBB]

<p>Rating is not the best way to look into a weapon.   </p><p>barefist was better than most fable weapons.   As i see we have been nerfed on bare handed that now it compares to mastercrafted. </p><p> 2.5 delay</p><p>2 hander</p><p>59 - 100 base damage (actual depends on your STR) the ratio is 1:2</p><p>before it used to be closer to 71 - 179 which was more of a 1:3 ratio and higher spread.  This was very good with critical malee and why this owned most duel weild fabled.  I so not see any updates saying this would be changed so it could be bugged.</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

I've been checking Unarmed damage since the Strength line came out with KoS... it was never 71-179. Maybe with your strength score added, etc.. but not as a base. And the delay has never changed either. Dunno where you are getting your info there.

[LuciferBB]

you are right DPS mod changes this. But it was a 1:3 ratio not 1:2 as it is now. and yes it has always been a 2hander 2.5 delay and only haste can change the value of the delay.

[Couching]

The ratio is not 2. By your number, it is 100/59 = 1.69.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Some of my old notes show it being 33-100... did that change? That's a 3:1 ratio. Although personally, if I have to choose between a 33-100 3:1, vs a 50-100 2:1, then I'd rather pick the 2:1 ratio in that case. The average damage goes UP (66.5 vs 75). And crits end up working the same for both... you'd need a high range, like 10-100 for crits to give you more out of it. But even then, without 100% crits, you are looking at a loss from a much lower average damage.

[Sarkatius]

so all in all is it a good idea to fight un-arm'd till the final levels?

[Couching]

Not really. By my experience, my bruiser at lv52 with master craft weapons and adornments did better dps and survivability. Or at least I can solo better than str line. Though, it costs money to buy weapons and adornments and barefist is free.

[Madmoon]

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Not really. By my experience, my bruiser at lv52 with master craft weapons and adornments did better dps and survivability. Or at least I can solo better than str line. Though, it costs money to buy weapons and adornments and barefist is free. </blockquote> True, and while I would still be inclined to recommend STR to the end, purchasing mastercrafted at 52 and 62 is NOT going to set you back that much.  Maybe four plat for the weapons and some adornments?  If you don't have four plat at those two levels, you are decorating your room w-a-y too much.

[Ba]

So wait, if indeed you can afford MC weaps, that is recommended over or as good as BH and Str AA setup? I am level 45 and have the cash to spend, but was always led to believe the 4/4/8 str was better for everything until the dmg 100 weaps came available.

[Couching]

I would say the solo capability or solo efficiency of MC weapons with 2 hp siphon adornments and extra 16 points that you can spend on your brawler or bruiser tree is better than bare first with str line (4 4 <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. For pure dps, BH with str line is better tha MC weapons. Though, dps from weapon isn't the only factor in solo capability or solo efficiency. For example, my damage from auto attack made by MC weapons is about 25% of my total damages and the 75% damage is from CAs and damage/hp procs. When I was using BH with str line, about 35%-40% of total damage is from by BH and 60%-65% is from CAs. The overall damage is similar but I got more hp, more atk and more avoidance with MC weapons and 2 hp siphon adornments.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

There's a difference between "max DPS" and "what's best for your character". MC will stop being better DPS 1-2 levels after you can use them. Basically, if you are expecting to level fairly quickly, then for 90% of your leveling time, unarmed will be better than MC. Adornments can give a lot of nice options though, and there's effects on some weapons that are good for other things (stifles, stuns, heals, etc). On the flipside, if you are going to be leveling, then having to buy a new set of weapons every 10 levels can be a pain. You should be able to get 17 AAs (the minimum for unarmed to be maxed) by your mid teens if you lock combat xp and don't outlevel all your tier2 quests. Which means you'll never have to buy weapons to compete... saving you about 4-5 tiers of weapons buying. And I mean.. if it competes, then why waste money unless you want the other effects (power drain/health drain, etc).

[Madmoon]

<cite>Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>There's a difference between "max DPS" and "what's best for your character". MC will stop being better DPS 1-2 levels after you can use them. Basically, if you are expecting to level fairly quickly, then for 90% of your leveling time, unarmed will be better than MC.Adornments can give a lot of nice options though, and there's effects on some weapons that are good for other things (stifles, stuns, heals, etc).On the flipside, if you are going to be leveling, then having to buy a new set of weapons every 10 levels can be a pain. You should be able to get 17 AAs (the minimum for unarmed to be maxed) by your mid teens if you lock combat xp and don't outlevel all your tier2 quests. Which means you'll never have to buy weapons to compete... saving you about 4-5 tiers of weapons buying.And I mean.. if it competes, then why waste money unless you want the other effects (power drain/health drain, etc).</blockquote><p>I hate well thought out and written points... now I'm flipping back to my first inclination, BH to the end!</p>

[Toy Dragon]

I went down the STR AA line before I got my calamities because it was sexy... Oh, and I did obnoxious DPS.

[Bulzie]

I currently have 4,5,8,1 in the Str line.  Does the 4th spell, the one that increases your chance to avoid attacks worth maxing to 8?  Should I eventually get it to 8,8,8,8?

[Mordith]

As asked previously, should lower level bruisers wait until they can put aa points into the third strength line (4-4-x) before going unarmed?

[Etchii]

B/C brawlers are the only class type who can!If you could fly, wouldn't you?