Just want to say TY TY TY I LOVE TS EXP BONUS ON WRITS [Archive]

Deson

08-02-2007, 12:24 PM

Ashrams@Najena wrote: <blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>First off congrats! However, I can't help but be wary when it's possible to level that fast and efficiently by everyone- especially with rares dropping so much now(more than imbues for me). Mostly though with no other outlets....well I guess we could wait and see but it worries me. </blockquote>When you look at a glass you see it half empty don't you. If people level just a bit faster that is just good. They are not just wasting time grinding but actually doing something that benefits everyone. The trasdskill guy is leveling a bit faster so he can make more stuff for his guild. The guild is happy because the writs are generating guild exp. The adventurers are happy because since people are leveling a bit faster they are buying more adv tradeskill books, the foragers are happy because everyone is buying up all the foraged goods. It is all good. <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>I see it for what it is. When a customer can do for self with minor inconvenience, typically the customer will. How many people already post a loss to be "self-sufficient"? It's not all about leveling, it's about other balances as well. I've no real issue with it getting faster but, 4 levels in a day, let alone a few hours, is excessive at that level to me. Even then though I likely would have shrugged it off if there were some other way to differentiate one's self in the market and crafting at large. With this change, there is nothing that takes real crafting dedication to prove one's self anymore. Faction is now part of a fast xp package, all recipes are accessible to anyone with the plat(and since putting them behind faction is now cheapened, I don't consider it a viable option), and rares are dropping like candy making the game that much cheaper an experience for everyone since drops will have less value(though, this whole rare thing looks like a data error). Right now for the market crafter, it looks bad and about to get worse. For the adventurer We're right back a DoF where crafted is easy to get and better than just about anything you're going to see( at least in the lower tiers). It may turn out to be nothing, there's always that possibility but there is so much potential for things to go sour it would be foolish not to be concerned because of the short term benefits. Half-full, half-empty, you still have to evaluate the glass for the situation.

Torri

08-02-2007, 01:21 PM

This morning I power-crafted for about an hour before having to head off to work. I started at 39% into 62, and ended at 74% into 63. (I was shooting for 64, but did not have a full stock of roots and I do not buy raws on the broker) Three level 60 difficult timed writs brought me to 93% (7% for making 6 items + 11% completion bonus for each) Then I looked and laughed to myself that I had not made a single level 62 common recipe yet, so I started on them, ding'd 63 and continued making new common recipes until they were exhausted and was about 38% into 63. Two more writs and I was too low on roots to do another order, so off to work I went. I started with 100% vitality, and ended with 56%, which was more than I would have had before the bonus exp ( I've just finished leveling an Alchemist and Jeweler to 69 on another account, both were right in the neighborhood of 2 full levels max before down to zero vitality in T7) At least in T7, we get somewhere between three and four percent exp for each pristine. By doing my most difficult writ (Level 60 difficult timed) I got three percent per build, so the objective of writs being a way to compete with the large pristine bonuses some classes receive has been well met. (Perhaps exceeded, judging by the posts of some that are further along in T7 than myself, but that is a different discussion) So writ grinding has become a much more attractive way to level, and the market does not need to be flooded with tons of commons sold at cost. As far as faction goes... As an example, let's say after pristines are done one still has 75% of a level to go (Yes, Carpenters and others will have more, Sages will never have to worry about this problem, just using this as an example). The player in this example is trying to level up in a timely manner while maximizing the experience from their raw usage. Four writs and I am now at 97% and have earned 150x4=600 faction. Prior to GU37 it would have taken 10 writs to get to 95ish% yielding 150x10=1500 faction. Now with writs being such an attractive way to level, yes people that would not normally work on their tradeskill faction will be getting some as a by-product. But people that were only doing writs to level following their pristines will now have to truly grind to max out their faction by doing writs with no purpose aside from the faction. Maybe over the course of leveling 20-70 a person may gain the first title level as a byproduct of doing writs in the course of their leveling. My 62 Tailor just hit 18K faction with Tunare's Pages, and whenever she could complete a writ before dinging her next level she did so. To me, there are three catagories of impact with the changes.<ul><li>The crafter leveling as fast as possible is now doing writs and gains faction they would not have before as a by-product of the new desireability of writs</li><li>The crafter that already used writs to gain status and faction while leveling will now earn much less then before</li><li>The status and faction grinder will only see an impact of leveling faster and gaining more status because they are leveling into higher status writs much faster. Faction is not impacted at all by the change.</li></ul>I'm in the middle class. My life became less rewarding. And here I thought I played a game to be different from the real world. /le sigh

Dionysoz

08-02-2007, 01:52 PM

While I understand a bit of what the nay sayers are saying about leveling faster I just think it compensates for the time we spend (NOT) making exp. Yeah we may level faster while we have all the supplies onhand and are just doing nothing but leveling, but what is the point of having a crafter if not to make stuff for people. I know most of the orders I get to make stuff is usally all grey, so I am getting no exp at all. If you also factor in the time we also have to spend foraging for rares to make the good stuff it all balances out. An adventure does not log on and say hey today I will log on and spend 2 hours running around and 2 hours killing greys. That is 4 hours down the drain. Unless you are swiming in pp you still spend more time foraging and making stuff for little to no money for friends other 1/3 your time actually finding a moment to sit down and actually start up leveling. In my option it balances itself out.

Daemonai

08-02-2007, 02:14 PM

Yes if you calculate say for 1 level the time it will take you to go out forage all the goods you will need then the time you actually get to sit and do your tradeskill both ends of the equation balance in as far as the about of time it takes you to level up. I know most of the time I don't have the pp to goto the broker to buy up supplies to make armor and equipment. I would easily say in order to get a few good stacks of ore and roots to to level my armorer 1 level I could esily spend 2 - 3 hours foraging. And that is just to make stuff to level, and I don't make a profit out of it unless I put it all up for sale, but I usually sell back to vendor so I can make some money to buy more fuel. Only when I then turn around and make stuff out of the rares I forage do I make a prophit but that usally goes back into buying fuels. So I think this new exp system is deffinetly a welcome to TS.

FoxRiverRanger

08-02-2007, 02:17 PM

<cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>First off congrats! However, I can't help but be wary when it's possible to level that fast and efficiently by everyone- especially with rares dropping so much now(more than imbues for me). Mostly though with no other outlets....well I guess we could wait and see but it worries me. </blockquote>You are not the only one worried, in T7 a carpenter writ would give 20% xp total (13.5% from quest completion and 6.5% from xp of the items created). T6 xp for completed writ is lower, more like 7% and that seems more reasonable than the 13% in T7. There was a discussion here: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=374515" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=374515</a> Some think this extra xp is still too low (*boggle*) and some think it is too high and of course a lot of people are happy. <cut></blockquote>It seems needing to make choices about how to spend in game time is unacceptable to a significant portion of the player base. Too many players seem to want the rewards of time committed to pursuing crafting, harvesting, and to some extent even raiding, without needing to forgo their normal adventuring activities. Complaints abound about the free market valuation of the rewards for time others commit to leveling crafters, harvesting, or raiding; yet the idea that they too could commit their game time to acquiring these rewards themselves seems unacceptable. Instead, they complain about the evils of those who offer the fruits of their labor on the broker, and demand the developers lower the commitment needed to attain the rewards. If one can level a full compliment of crafters in the same time it takes to level a single adventurer, then crafting as a primary in-game activity will no longer be an option. With a 'rare' harvest rate exceeding (from my personal experience) ten rares an hour, and there can be no justification for improving the itemization of Mastercrafted items in the expansion. Crafting as a dedicated game play option will not be strengthened by any of these changes. Crafting as a secondary skill for adventurers is improving. Since I play this game to play a crafter, I see the glass as half empty because it appears to still be losing water. If it seemed to be filling up I would see it as half full.

Deson

08-02-2007, 02:28 PM

The more I harvest the more it just seems like a data error; I've gotten more rares than imbues. Still, it brings to mind what Ilucide said about handcrafted being grind recipes and mastercrafted types being for use. Looking at the State of the Game post on Warcry, it seems we are getting quested recipes and such. If that's the case, we may also be getting a new quality of recipes. If this persists without changes though, it will be a big negative for both trades and adventuring.

Dionysoz

08-02-2007, 08:28 PM

Well once I figured out how to work my provisioner am back on the right track and cranking writs.

TaleraRis

08-02-2007, 11:46 PM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote> 4 levels in a day, let alone a few hours, is excessive at that level to me. </blockquote> The last four levels of my 60 sage prior to this change I got in the same day after having not played her for a while and having vitality stored up. For those with an excess of recipes, it wasn't as rare as an occurrence as you think. This just evens the playing field and makes it a possibility for everyone, regardless of the number of recipes they have.

Deson

08-02-2007, 11:56 PM

<cite>TaleraRis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote> 4 levels in a day, let alone a few hours, is excessive at that level to me. </blockquote> The last four levels of my 60 sage prior to this change I got in the same day after having not played her for a while and having vitality stored up. For those with an excess of recipes, it wasn't as rare as an occurrence as you think. This just evens the playing field and makes it a possibility for everyone, regardless of the number of recipes they have. </blockquote>Having done it myself I know but, it took full vitality and even then I thought it was too fast.

Tremelle

08-03-2007, 12:17 AM

I maybe wrong, I think the % of the boost from the writ seems to increase with the lvl of the craft writ, hence an increase in crafting speed in the higher tiers. My provie at the moment seems to be leveling every 4 writs or so, currently she is 45.

Kri

08-03-2007, 04:18 AM

Fusegu@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>I maybe wrong, I think the % of the boost from the writ seems to increase with the lvl of the craft writ, hence an increase in crafting speed in the higher tiers. My provie at the moment seems to be leveling every 4 writs or so, currently she is 45. </blockquote> I got less and less bonus experience from the writs as I levelled until I hit level 59 and got a new one. Went from 11% down to 8% and then back up to 11% from white con writs.

Kri

08-03-2007, 04:29 AM

Deson wrote: <blockquote> I've no real issue with it getting faster but, 4 levels in a day, let alone a few hours, is excessive at that level to me. </blockquote>Factor in the many hours I spent in SS harvesting the materials, it's not that fast. Before they upped the drop rate it took forever to get the 400+ pelts and the 400+ roots needed to do 4 levels. When I levelled my Sage and my Jeweler, most of the materials (except the roots) were dirt cheap so I didn't even have to harvest them. Four levels in a few hours were a breeze with them even in their high 50's.

Deson

08-03-2007, 04:53 AM

Shadowbreath@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote>Deson wrote: <blockquote> I've no real issue with it getting faster but, 4 levels in a day, let alone a few hours, is excessive at that level to me. </blockquote>Factor in the many hours I spent in SS harvesting the materials, it's not that fast. Before they upped the drop rate it took forever to get the 400+ pelts and the 400+ roots needed to do 4 levels. When I levelled my Sage and my Jeweler, most of the materials (except the roots) were dirt cheap so I didn't even have to harvest them. Four levels in a few hours were a breeze with them even in their high 50's. </blockquote>And again, having done it I thought it was too fast even then. If everyone had to harvest on their own I might feel differently but I really don't factor in harvest time since most materials can be bought fairly cheaply(I harvested almost all my own materials when I ground up all 9. Even did weaponsmith in less than a month). I'm still mulling over what I'm hearing and right now it sounds like as long as materials aren't ridiculous in price, a crafter can level 20-70 fairly fast and actually come out ahead from the writ money with incidental status. Without anything that actually requires dedication for the reward, I'm really not sure how to take this.I've always been an advocate of reducing unneeded tedium in crafting but this from all the talk sounds like it took a step over tedium reduction into hand out. With no other outlets, no other avenues that require TS dedication for reward...I just don't know but it doesn't feel right.

Argul

08-03-2007, 05:35 AM

Yes, it is nice. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I hated crafting for the longest time because on my main (argul) I had become a tailor, and I HATED it. I only got to 23, and stopped because it was so boring. I wanted to craft, but didn't want to make a bunch of clothes I couldn't use, lol. So when they let us change, I was excited, and took a while to decide what I would do next, and settled on provisioner. I started today, and got all the way to 24 already in only like two or three hours. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The writs helped a lot, lots of XP. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

TaleraRis

08-05-2007, 02:00 PM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shadowbreath@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote>Deson wrote: <blockquote> I've no real issue with it getting faster but, 4 levels in a day, let alone a few hours, is excessive at that level to me. </blockquote>Factor in the many hours I spent in SS harvesting the materials, it's not that fast. Before they upped the drop rate it took forever to get the 400+ pelts and the 400+ roots needed to do 4 levels. When I levelled my Sage and my Jeweler, most of the materials (except the roots) were dirt cheap so I didn't even have to harvest them. Four levels in a few hours were a breeze with them even in their high 50's. </blockquote>And again, having done it I thought it was too fast even then. If everyone had to harvest on their own I might feel differently but I really don't factor in harvest time since most materials can be bought fairly cheaply(I harvested almost all my own materials when I ground up all 9. Even did weaponsmith in less than a month). I'm still mulling over what I'm hearing and right now it sounds like as long as materials aren't ridiculous in price, a crafter can level 20-70 fairly fast and actually come out ahead from the writ money with incidental status. Without anything that actually requires dedication for the reward, I'm really not sure how to take this.I've always been an advocate of reducing unneeded tedium in crafting but this from all the talk sounds like it took a step over tedium reduction into hand out. With no other outlets, no other avenues that require TS dedication for reward...I just don't know but it doesn't feel right. </blockquote>You have all 9, and you can't see the problem in a sage or a jeweler leveling as easily as they do and with less resource consumption, compared to the carpenter and weaponsmith, who both have a much larger resource consumption leading to more harvest time or coin spent to buy less common materials, and a more tedious and difficult time leveling since they don't have the advantage of nearly as many first time pristone bonuses as the other two? Unless SoE is willing to make drastic changes to take away that advantage, then it's only a good thing that they've now brought the other classes to where the scholar classes have been all along.

Illmarr

08-05-2007, 02:38 PM

Deson

08-05-2007, 02:45 PM

<cite>TaleraRis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shadowbreath@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote>Deson wrote: <blockquote> I've no real issue with it getting faster but, 4 levels in a day, let alone a few hours, is excessive at that level to me. </blockquote>Factor in the many hours I spent in SS harvesting the materials, it's not that fast. Before they upped the drop rate it took forever to get the 400+ pelts and the 400+ roots needed to do 4 levels. When I levelled my Sage and my Jeweler, most of the materials (except the roots) were dirt cheap so I didn't even have to harvest them. Four levels in a few hours were a breeze with them even in their high 50's. </blockquote>And again, having done it I thought it was too fast even then. If everyone had to harvest on their own I might feel differently but I really don't factor in harvest time since most materials can be bought fairly cheaply(I harvested almost all my own materials when I ground up all 9. Even did weaponsmith in less than a month). I'm still mulling over what I'm hearing and right now it sounds like as long as materials aren't ridiculous in price, a crafter can level 20-70 fairly fast and actually come out ahead from the writ money with incidental status. Without anything that actually requires dedication for the reward, I'm really not sure how to take this.I've always been an advocate of reducing unneeded tedium in crafting but this from all the talk sounds like it took a step over tedium reduction into hand out. With no other outlets, no other avenues that require TS dedication for reward...I just don't know but it doesn't feel right. </blockquote>You have all 9, and you can't see the problem in a sage or a jeweler leveling as easily as they do and with less resource consumption, compared to the carpenter and weaponsmith, who both have a much larger resource consumption leading to more harvest time or coin spent to buy less common materials, and a more tedious and difficult time leveling since they don't have the advantage of nearly as many first time pristone bonuses as the other two? Unless SoE is willing to make drastic changes to take away that advantage, then it's only a good thing that they've now brought the other classes to where the scholar classes have been all along. </blockquote>All classes use about the same resources per tier, feel free to count it. The disparity comes from the type of resources used- unless you are talking of resource consumption because of leveling, I can't tell from your post. And what about provi's that have almost every tier with 1cp resources? I'd use other examples but that's the only one I know applies across all servers. On Lucan, the only things worth more than a few silver on the broker are t6 roots and t7 pelts at last glance. No, I don't see a problem because none of them compete and besides, I clearly said it was too fast on the sage(though, it leveled out well once I actually started grinding on it instead of waiting for vitality). SOE should have made a drastic change to me- removing pristine bonus as a factor and making leveling a happy medium at around the tailor speed. The current situation and the mechanic that allows it is deeply flawed to me. Fixing the so-called disparity is one thing, this apparent handout is another altogether. A bad situation shouldn't be compounded by more bad decisions.The level disparity argument has shown up entirely too much here and obviously has held too much sway. Sage leveled really fast? Great! What else do they do? If people want to make leveling such an important factor then congrats! Sage just lost the one ability that made it stand out. Leveling speed isn't even the heart of my complaint. The heart of it is that with this change, there is nothing to differentiate a tradeskiller that makes real investment as a playstyle and one who's in it for something else entirely; this one change has completely removed what little there was.This was a short term solution to a long term cosmetic problem that in one stroke has reduced the value of a high level crafter and of faction(the only two points crafters have had to this point to stand out). No, I don't subscribe to the "I suffered,so must you" line of thought but I do think some things should take more work than a casual weekend. Heck, You could grant insta-70 to me as long as there was something more to allow those who dedicate themselves to crafting to stand out significantly. Barring more outlets that require dedicated crafting time, this may just be the beginning of the end for the dedicated crafter. As I've said in every other post, I'm still evaluating this and really don't know but, in every long term view I've taken with what I've seen in game and know is coming so far, the only good that may come of this is the death of balance by numbers-and this was too steep a price to pay for that. There may be more coming and I'm more than willing to give Domino and the dev team a chance to prove it given her track record. This however, is a huge blow to that confidence.

Calris

08-05-2007, 03:26 PM

<cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>First off congrats! However, I can't help but be wary when it's possible to level that fast and efficiently by everyone- especially with rares dropping so much now(more than imbues for me). Mostly though with no other outlets....well I guess we could wait and see but it worries me. </blockquote>You are not the only one worried, in T7 a carpenter writ would give 20% xp total (13.5% from quest completion and 6.5% from xp of the items created). T6 xp for completed writ is lower, more like 7% and that seems more reasonable than the 13% in T7. There was a discussion here: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=374515" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=374515</a> Some think this extra xp is still too low (*boggle*) and some think it is too high and of course a lot of people are happy. I was calculating on it and found that if a lvl 60 carpenter and a lvl 60 sage were racing each other to lvl 70 and the carpenter would use the new writ system and the sage would just go for first pristine bonus, the carpenter would reach lvl 70 first. The xp from completion of a writ doesn't cost vitaliy and makes the tradeskiller able to continue crafting where the other one would have to run out of vitality. Interesting to say the least. I'm worried, and those levels that are comming in now so fast feels hollow. They don't feel good anymore, it's just...bah. Perhaps this is just me, but I like that I have to work a bit for my accomplishments. I won't cry for nerfs or anything yet, I like the idea that writs give xp, but perhaps I would like to see a bit of tweaking <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> I'm sorry, but I can't help but think it's a bit elitist and selfish to be against a change because you can't "feel good about yourself" without having to spend hours aggravating carpal tunnel syndrome in a mind-numbingly tedious activity to gain a level. I do find tradeskilling fun in general, but the process of leveling it up gets steeper and steeper the higher the level goes, making it way too much of a grind. I'm all for finding some other way to make it more challenging, but slower leveling =/= more challenging. This is one of the mistakes Vanguard made.

Deson

08-05-2007, 03:38 PM

<cite>Tygerpaws wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>First off congrats! However, I can't help but be wary when it's possible to level that fast and efficiently by everyone- especially with rares dropping so much now(more than imbues for me). Mostly though with no other outlets....well I guess we could wait and see but it worries me. </blockquote>You are not the only one worried, in T7 a carpenter writ would give 20% xp total (13.5% from quest completion and 6.5% from xp of the items created). T6 xp for completed writ is lower, more like 7% and that seems more reasonable than the 13% in T7. There was a discussion here: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=374515" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=374515</a> Some think this extra xp is still too low (*boggle*) and some think it is too high and of course a lot of people are happy. I was calculating on it and found that if a lvl 60 carpenter and a lvl 60 sage were racing each other to lvl 70 and the carpenter would use the new writ system and the sage would just go for first pristine bonus, the carpenter would reach lvl 70 first. The xp from completion of a writ doesn't cost vitaliy and makes the tradeskiller able to continue crafting where the other one would have to run out of vitality. Interesting to say the least. I'm worried, and those levels that are comming in now so fast feels hollow. They don't feel good anymore, it's just...bah. Perhaps this is just me, but I like that I have to work a bit for my accomplishments. I won't cry for nerfs or anything yet, I like the idea that writs give xp, but perhaps I would like to see a bit of tweaking <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> I'm sorry, but I can't help but think it's a bit elitist and selfish to be against a change because you can't "feel good about yourself" without having to spend hours aggravating carpal tunnel syndrome in a mind-numbingly tedious activity to gain a level. I do find tradeskilling fun in general, but the process of leveling it up gets steeper and steeper the higher the level goes, making it way too much of a grind. I'm all for finding some other way to make it more challenging, but slower leveling =/= more challenging. This is one of the mistakes Vanguard made. </blockquote>That's not why Liljna is against it. It because the 20 foot wall just dropped to 5. If it stayed at 10ft. it could have been a happy medium because it still took effort but, 5 ft. allows everyone to step over it and call themselves a "winner". Slower leveling =/= more challenging true but give aways =/= earning it either. Were changes needed? Meh, I thought it was fine but wouldn't have argued against them. This though, this is wrong on too many levels as far as I can see.

Calris

08-05-2007, 03:44 PM

See, I don't agree that the "20 ft wall" as been reduced to 5. Sure, it makes it faster, but not -that- much faster.

Deson

08-05-2007, 03:47 PM

<cite>Tygerpaws wrote:</cite><blockquote>See, I don't agree that the "20 ft wall" as been reduced to 5. Sure, it makes it faster, but not -that- much faster. </blockquote>I did the grind, the numbers reported compared to what it was is more like dropping that wall to 2 feet from 20. I was being generous.

Calris

08-05-2007, 04:05 PM

Don't go off the numbers reported then. Try it out yourself. I'm not seeing 20% from a rush order complete bonus as someone in this thread said. More like 10% if that. That's on a 35 Carp.

Deson

08-05-2007, 04:09 PM

<cite>Tygerpaws wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't go off the numbers reported then. Try it out yourself. I'm not seeing 20% from a rush order complete bonus as someone in this thread said. More like 10% if that. That's on a 35 Carp. </blockquote>I would check it myself but fortunately I have some solid number from others that saves me the headache. Every source I've heard has reported +10-14% from writs being done. That's a tight enough report from various unassociated people to let me know it's accurate. with steady supplies, that's about a level an hour with no vitality. That's far, far too fast to me considering what I've said earlier.

Lilj

08-05-2007, 07:20 PM

<cite>Tygerpaws wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't go off the numbers reported then. Try it out yourself. I'm not seeing 20% from a rush order complete bonus as someone in this thread said. More like 10% if that. That's on a 35 Carp. </blockquote>This is probably because you are only lvl 35. As far as I can see the pattern is that the higher level you get the more xp you get with this writ system. The xp from the writ itself will increase the higher tier you work in. So those saying 10-14% xp in T7 are absolutely right, unless you want to call me a liar to my face. (I am that someone you mention). Btw I reported 20% in total not just from writ completion (6.5% from making the items+13.5% from the writ itself). Tier7 writ rewards are 10-14% (from what I have seen and heard) and Tier6 writ rewards are approx 7% (alchemist, provisioner and woodworker, from my own crafters). These numbers are without counting the xp for making the items themselves, the numbers are only the writ reward. The 10% you see, is that a total number or just from completion (the quest xp)?

Calris

08-05-2007, 09:40 PM

Just the completion. And a level tradeskilling in an hour or so is too fast? Jesus. Sorry you want this game to be a boring grindfest. Go play Vanguard for that. Adventuring, I'd go with that being too fast. But not tradeskilling.

Lilj

08-05-2007, 10:20 PM

<cite>Tygerpaws wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just the completion. And a level tradeskilling in an hour or so is too fast? Jesus. Sorry you want this game to be a boring grindfest. Go play Vanguard for that. Adventuring, I'd go with that being too fast. But not tradeskilling. </blockquote>Hmm, nice way to take what I said completely out of proportions and putting words into my mounth. But I'm happy you can tell me how I want the game. Do you have other good arguments besides 'go play another game'?

Calris

08-05-2007, 10:51 PM

Well, gee, what else am I supposed to get out of opposition to levelling tradeskilling taking less than several hours per level? Hours generally spent making the same two or three items over and over and over and over and over...... At least adventuring, there's more skill and danger involved unless you -choose- to play it as safe as possible (which causes it to take even longer to level). Adventuring, you can take greater risks to possibly level faster. There's no such option with tradeskilling. It's the same grinding. Always. Usually in a dark little room, staring at the same screen for hours. Adventure grinding can be fun if you choose to make it that way. There's no way to make tradeskill grinding fun. At least speeding up the leveling curve makes it less tedious. Again, I love crafting stuff, don't get me wrong. But when it takes several hours of cranking out the same product over and over, hitting the same 3-6 buttons repeatedly (RSI anyone?) just to get the next set of recipes, that takes a lot of the fun out of it. I'm not saying it should be easy to power through levels in a breeze... But those of us who don't have 60+ hours a week to play would like the option of being able to reasonably level our tradeskills without sacrificing the ability to reasonably gain adventure levels. 1-2 hours per level is NOT unreasonably fast, IMO. More than that is just plain ridiculous.

Deson

08-05-2007, 11:12 PM

<cite>Tygerpaws wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, gee, what else am I supposed to get out of opposition to levelling tradeskilling taking less than several hours per level? Hours generally spent making the same two or three items over and over and over and over and over...... At least adventuring, there's more skill and danger involved unless you -choose- to play it as safe as possible (which causes it to take even longer to level). Adventuring, you can take greater risks to possibly level faster. There's no such option with tradeskilling. It's the same grinding. Always. Usually in a dark little room, staring at the same screen for hours. Adventure grinding can be fun if you choose to make it that way. There's no way to make tradeskill grinding fun. At least speeding up the leveling curve makes it less tedious. Again, I love crafting stuff, don't get me wrong. But when it takes several hours of cranking out the same product over and over, hitting the same 3-6 buttons repeatedly (RSI anyone?) just to get the next set of recipes, that takes a lot of the fun out of it. I'm not saying it should be easy to power through levels in a breeze... But those of us who don't have 60+ hours a week to play would like the option of being able to reasonably level our tradeskills without sacrificing the ability to reasonably gain adventure levels. 1-2 hours per level is NOT unreasonably fast, IMO. More than that is just plain ridiculous. </blockquote>Even those of us who disagree with this change agree that more needs to be done to add variety to tradeskills. There were better ways to fix it than this and it wasn't an "urgent" problem that needed to be fixed with this kind of measure. The bolded is the point of contention. Trades continue to be sold as a playstyle option, not a hobby or side game. As long as they continue to sell it as such, it much at least keep up the facade of being treated as such. Making it easier for everyone to be their own little crafting group severely impacts those who choose to made trades their dedicated playstyle.Ever wonder why sages don't make as much as other trades? Inspect priests/mages when you walk by them and see how many of them are sages on the side. When I do it, I find about half those I see have those classes at or close tho their levels. If it's not that, then the mages tend to have tailoring(my coercer is a weaponsmith but doesn't count since I had sage covered already). Every single one of those is a gained competitor and a lost customer. Reasonable barriers of entry prevent those who refuse to dedicate the really small amount of time/dedication needed from jumping in because it costs too little, while not frustrating those who do choose to do so. This change as reported robs the dedicated tradeskiller in so many ways that just won't be apparent until it's too late. That's how it looks to me now. I'm still trying to find some positives but besides the potential death of balance by numbers, this is simply not good for the dedicated crafter.

Lilj

08-05-2007, 11:36 PM

<cite>Tygerpaws wrote:</cite><blockquote> But those of us who don't have 60+ hours a week to play would like the option of being able to reasonably level our tradeskills without sacrificing the ability to reasonably gain adventure levels. 1-2 hours per level is NOT unreasonably fast, IMO. More than that is just plain ridiculous. </blockquote>Why shouldn't you be forced to sacrifice adventurer time to get anywhere with a tradeskiller? Why should tradeskilling be so easy any idjit can do it? What is wrong with choice and that you have to decide how to spend you time? If you really want to tradeskill, you will have to sacrifce time with the adventuer, and vice versa. I could use your argument turned around and say '..like the option of being able to reasonably level our adventures without sacrificing the ability to reasonably gain tradeskill levels. 1-2 hours per level is NOT unreasonably fast, IMO. More than that is just plain ridiculous.' Would that be ok too? Would it be ok if I could get from lvl 65 warden to 70 in 3.5 hours? And if not, why not?

Calris

08-05-2007, 11:46 PM

See, I don't see it from quite the same angle. One of the selling points is that you can choose to just tradeskill and never adventure, this is true. However, that doesn't mean you should be forced to choose between the two. You -CAN- choose one or the other. Not you -MUST-. Right now, anyone without loads of time to spend on the game pretty much has to make that choice, though.

Calris

08-05-2007, 11:47 PM

<cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tygerpaws wrote:</cite><blockquote> But those of us who don't have 60+ hours a week to play would like the option of being able to reasonably level our tradeskills without sacrificing the ability to reasonably gain adventure levels. 1-2 hours per level is NOT unreasonably fast, IMO. More than that is just plain ridiculous. </blockquote>Why shouldn't you be forced to sacrifice adventurer time to get anywhere with a tradeskiller? </blockquote> It's not that you have to sacrifice time. It's how -MUCH- time you have to sacrifice.

Deson

08-05-2007, 11:49 PM

Calris

08-06-2007, 12:31 AM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tygerpaws wrote:</cite><blockquote>See, I don't see it from quite the same angle. One of the selling points is that you can choose to just tradeskill and never adventure, this is true. However, that doesn't mean you should be forced to choose between the two. You -CAN- choose one or the other. Not you -MUST-. Right now, anyone without loads of time to spend on the game pretty much has to make that choice, though. </blockquote>At what point does access trivialize the activity though? You should have to make some decisions on how you play and if you don't like the activity enough to decide it's worth a bit of your playtime? It shouldn't just be handed to you. </blockquote> At what point it becomes trivial is subjective. Very much so. I don't feel it's been pushed that far by this. And I'm not saying it should be just handed to me. Of course not, don't be ridiculous. I don't feel that where things are right now is "just handing it to me", though. It requires an investment of time still, but not so much to make the activity unappealing to more casual players.

FoxRiverRanger

08-06-2007, 12:32 AM

<cite>Tygerpaws wrote:</cite><blockquote>See, I don't see it from quite the same angle. One of the selling points is that you can choose to just tradeskill and never adventure, this is true. However, that doesn't mean you should be forced to choose between the two. You -CAN- choose one or the other. Not you -MUST-. Right now, anyone without loads of time to spend on the game pretty much has to make that choice, though. </blockquote> It is an inescapable fact that those who spend more time playing the game will acquire more rewards, whether they pursue tradeskilling, harvesting, or adventuring. What adventurers have is the ability to develop and distinguish their character by working through a progression of activities. What tradeskill lack in engaging content is not added by allowing my Armorer to level from 42 to 47 in one evening of play. It is served by adding content for which many tradeskillers have been asking: Earning recipes by crafting, quested crafting gear, or tradeskill AA trees. This rate of leveling does nothing to improve the game play of the crafting side of the game.

Illmarr

08-06-2007, 12:37 AM

Where recently has Tradeskilling been sold as a viable stand alone playstyle? Last official word I saw was from Ilucide, before Domino was named the dedicated TS Developer that they wanted to merge the two spheres. It's totally possible I missed a statement to the contrary. Or I'm getting even older than I feel and am forgetting things now.

Deson

08-06-2007, 12:51 AM

<cite>Tygerpaws wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tygerpaws wrote:</cite><blockquote>See, I don't see it from quite the same angle. One of the selling points is that you can choose to just tradeskill and never adventure, this is true. However, that doesn't mean you should be forced to choose between the two. You -CAN- choose one or the other. Not you -MUST-. Right now, anyone without loads of time to spend on the game pretty much has to make that choice, though. </blockquote>At what point does access trivialize the activity though? You should have to make some decisions on how you play and if you don't like the activity enough to decide it's worth a bit of your playtime? It shouldn't just be handed to you. </blockquote> At what point it becomes trivial is subjective. Very much so. I don't feel it's been pushed that far by this. And I'm not saying it should be just handed to me. Of course not, don't be ridiculous. I don't feel that where things are right now is "just handing it to me", though. It requires an investment of time still, but not so much to make the activity unappealing to more casual players. </blockquote>It wasn't before. I can say it was annoying at times but it really was never so hard/tedious to be a deterent for someone who really wanted to do it. If you only crafted with vitality, it took 2-6 hours(depending on if you harvested your own or not) a week for 4 months to hit cap.Now that same investment nets you cap in about a month or two. of course that's just vitality. The bonus alone from writs makes you inclined to not just grind on vitality so you're looking at about 60hours of play to hit cap. It's really not that large an investment. Before it was perfectly in reach for casual players since by supposed definition the above pre-writ bonus rate fit well into their play time. If you only have 6 hours a week to play? Ah well, it's decision time. I'm not a fan of take forever grinds but there are points of accommodation that shouldn't be gone beyond. At some point, that accommodation destroys the game for others and trivializes it. Gaining 3-5 levels in the above supposed time frame is ridiculous for a supposed primary activity in a game like this. You can say you want it all you want, everyone claims to like making the useful shiny baubles. The question is, do you like it enough to make the choices it demands. Everyone wants to make the team, how many want to put in the practice to join it? There are endless analogies I can make and as long as we don't jump to the point of absurdity, they are valid. Just because you want to do something doesn't mean you should be able to without putting in that time and effort. I even thought the Provi and weaponsmith level rates were fine; there was nothing so far gone that demanded this kind of change. Sometimes people just have to accept they can't do some things.

Deson

08-06-2007, 12:54 AM

Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>Where recently has Tradeskilling been sold as a viable stand alone playstyle? Last official word I saw was from Ilucide, before Domino was named the dedicated TS Developer that they wanted to merge the two spheres. It's totally possible I missed a statement to the contrary. Or I'm getting even older than I feel and am forgetting things now.</blockquote>Recently? Hasn't been said but, it hasn't been rescinded either and it still has much of the trappings of a primary activity. Where did Ilucide say he wanted to merge the 2 spheres? He proposed excellent just for their suggestion class mergers and said that he wanted more meaningful interplay between crafters and adventurers. While I find his execution was flawed, it was still a very good idea. Did I misread you?

Calris

08-06-2007, 12:58 AM

The problem was, the sacrifice it demanded wasn't really worth the rewards. ...and you seem to have a funny definition of "casual player". 4 months of just tradeskilling to hit the cap is "casual"? And, again, it wasn't just that it was a matter of the time involved. It was that the time was spent staring at the same screen in a dark little room aggravating carpal tunnel syndrome on the same recipes over and over for hours at a time. I still did it...but it was frustrating. And the tedium is a complaint I heard a lot. This cuts down on that, but, IMO, not so much to make it trivial.

Deson

08-06-2007, 01:10 AM

<cite>Tygerpaws wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem was, the sacrifice it demanded wasn't really worth the rewards. ...and you seem to have a funny definition of "casual player". 4 months of just tradeskilling to hit the cap is "casual"? And, again, it wasn't just that it was a matter of the time involved. It was that the time was spent staring at the same screen in a dark little room aggravating carpal tunnel syndrome on the same recipes over and over for hours at a time. I still did it...but it was frustrating. And the tedium is a complaint I heard a lot. This cuts down on that, but, IMO, not so much to make it trivial. </blockquote>It does trivialize it at the rates cited. Bluntly, if you can't play a game like this more than 6 hours a week, you shouldn't be complaining about how long it takes to level at the pre-writ rates or complaining a primary activity is out of reach when you don't want to make that choice. I've made the same complaints about the way we play but it didn't justify this. There were other, more meaningful ways to add variety and a better pace to trades.Sure it would have taken time but this simply wasn't an urgent problem that needed to be addressed right now.

Calris

08-06-2007, 01:24 AM

Again, that's 6 hours a week for 4 months straight (I find that a very conservative estimate, but still. In fact, I'd say that's more like what would be required -after- writ xp. Probably less. 4 months would be roughly 16 weeks. A level per hour (Edit: I still find the "1 level per hour" figure to be off, too) at 6 hours a week for 16 weeks would take you to 56) -JUST- tradeskilling. And, no, it does not trivialize it. I'm sorry, I simply disagree with you completely on that point. "Tradeskill or adventure exclusively" should be a choice, not a requirement for casual and hardcore gamers alike. Edit 2: Also note that these leveling time figures are -just- actual crafting time. Harvesting or acquiring the coin to buy the resources takes up even more time. So, to be blunt, saying that you could hit the level cap on crafting in 4 months at 6 hours a week pre-writ xp is pure BS. Even post writ xp it's completely unrealistic. Unless you're talking about leveling an alt that's had tons of coin dumped on him from your main (Or you went out and bought plat) so you could buy all the resources you needed off the broker.

Calthine

08-06-2007, 01:27 AM

Are the people complaining the same ones who complained that they didn't have enough recipes to level up on Pristine bonuses? Gratz, you're all Sages. Level away!

Illmarr

08-06-2007, 01:27 AM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>Where recently has Tradeskilling been sold as a viable stand alone playstyle? Last official word I saw was from Ilucide, before Domino was named the dedicated TS Developer that they wanted to merge the two spheres. It's totally possible I missed a statement to the contrary. Or I'm getting even older than I feel and am forgetting things now.</blockquote>Recently? Hasn't been said but, it hasn't been rescinded either and it still has much of the trappings of a primary activity. Where did Ilucide say he wanted to merge the 2 spheres? He proposed excellent just for their suggestion class mergers and said that he wanted more meaningful interplay between crafters and adventurers. While I find his execution was flawed, it was still a very good idea. Did I misread you? </blockquote> I thought he went further than simply more meaningful interplay between Adventurer and crafter, but since I cannot find it to substantiate it then just disregard. Maybe I'll have more luck searching while bored at work tomorrow.I do know nothing has recently been said about tradeskills being sold as a viable playstyle. I think that omission speaks volumes more than the claims made 2 years ago, but that's just my opinion. You yourself make the case that changes make it less so than ever because people (Like yourself and myself) have all crafters to serve their needs and can now have an even easier time getting to the point of being self-sufficient.

Calris

08-06-2007, 01:40 AM

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>Are the people complaining the same ones who complained that they didn't have enough recipes to level up on Pristine bonuses? Gratz, you're all Sages. Level away! </blockquote> All scholors had a lot of pristine bonuses to level on... But that's beside the point. Do you honestly think it was balanced for a few trades to be able to level ridiculously faster than the rest?

Deson

08-06-2007, 01:45 AM

Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>Where recently has Tradeskilling been sold as a viable stand alone playstyle? Last official word I saw was from Ilucide, before Domino was named the dedicated TS Developer that they wanted to merge the two spheres. It's totally possible I missed a statement to the contrary. Or I'm getting even older than I feel and am forgetting things now.</blockquote>Recently? Hasn't been said but, it hasn't been rescinded either and it still has much of the trappings of a primary activity. Where did Ilucide say he wanted to merge the 2 spheres? He proposed excellent just for their suggestion class mergers and said that he wanted more meaningful interplay between crafters and adventurers. While I find his execution was flawed, it was still a very good idea. Did I misread you? </blockquote> I thought he went further than simply more meaningful interplay between Adventurer and crafter, but since I cannot find it to substantiate it then just disregard. Maybe I'll have more luck searching while bored at work tomorrow.I do know nothing has recently been said about tradeskills being sold as a viable playstyle. I think that omission speaks volumes more than the claims made 2 years ago, but that's just my opinion. You yourself make the case that changes make it less so than ever because people (Like yourself and myself) have all crafters to serve their needs and can now have an even easier time getting to the point of being self-sufficient. </blockquote>While I can't argue some of his additions and a comment or two didn't make it seem that way, you'll never find a post from him on these forums where he's said such. Not sure what you meant by that so I'm clarifying why I do it. I do it because I like crafting to fill that niche. I very much like the idea that people live and die indirectly at my hands and that my activity directly adds to the ability of others to enjoy the game. If all I crafted for was self-sufficience, there is no way it would have evened out in cost/benefit. In the amount of time I dedicated to trades since launch, I could have had at least 10 level 70's, AA's all capped. I very much engage in trades in the manner sold to me; I couldn't do it otherwise.From the current information available,all I can see this change doing is removing the little dedication crafting itself had. The level speed itself is a minor argument to me; with nothing to make the dedicated crafter stand out and with the non-dedicated crafter able to get all the same rewards for minimal investment in crafting itself, more people will craft to be self sufficient and that will rob me of customers- to say nothing of the increased competition. Dedicating that really light 4 months of well below the average playtime was just enough to give a happy medium. With this change, there really is no reason not to make a crafter to supply all your needs because there really is no pain to it.

Meio

08-06-2007, 04:12 AM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>Where recently has Tradeskilling been sold as a viable stand alone playstyle? Last official word I saw was from Ilucide, before Domino was named the dedicated TS Developer that they wanted to merge the two spheres. It's totally possible I missed a statement to the contrary. Or I'm getting even older than I feel and am forgetting things now.</blockquote>Recently? Hasn't been said but, it hasn't been rescinded either and it still has much of the trappings of a primary activity. Where did Ilucide say he wanted to merge the 2 spheres? He proposed excellent just for their suggestion class mergers and said that he wanted more meaningful interplay between crafters and adventurers. While I find his execution was flawed, it was still a very good idea. Did I misread you? </blockquote> I thought he went further than simply more meaningful interplay between Adventurer and crafter, but since I cannot find it to substantiate it then just disregard. Maybe I'll have more luck searching while bored at work tomorrow.I do know nothing has recently been said about tradeskills being sold as a viable playstyle. I think that omission speaks volumes more than the claims made 2 years ago, but that's just my opinion. You yourself make the case that changes make it less so than ever because people (Like yourself and myself) have all crafters to serve their needs and can now have an even easier time getting to the point of being self-sufficient. </blockquote>While I can't argue some of his additions and a comment or two didn't make it seem that way, you'll never find a post from him on these forums where he's said such. Not sure what you meant by that so I'm clarifying why I do it. I do it because I like crafting to fill that niche. I very much like the idea that people live and die indirectly at my hands and that my activity directly adds to the ability of others to enjoy the game. If all I crafted for was self-sufficience, there is no way it would have evened out in cost/benefit. In the amount of time I dedicated to trades since launch, I could have had at least 10 level 70's, AA's all capped. I very much engage in trades in the manner sold to me; I couldn't do it otherwise.From the current information available,all I can see this change doing is removing the little dedication crafting itself had. The level speed itself is a minor argument to me; with nothing to make the dedicated crafter stand out and with the non-dedicated crafter able to get all the same rewards for minimal investment in crafting itself, more people will craft to be self sufficient and that will rob me of customers- to say nothing of the increased competition. Dedicating that really light 4 months of well below the average playtime was just enough to give a happy medium. With this change, there really is no reason not to make a crafter to supply all your needs because there really is no pain to it. </blockquote>Thats just a consequential sequel of all the changes they made to TS to increase the speed of producing TS stuff and make it less time consuming to 'part time crafters'. -remove interdependance -remove subs -more experience -exp from writs You just sad all the time until now its good to get more people into crafting. Now you prolly see where it will end. 'Everyone' is crafting therefore the market is shrinking. *sigh

Deson

08-06-2007, 05:07 AM

<cite>Meiox2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Deson wrote: Thats just a consequential sequel of all the changes they made to TS to increase the speed of producing TS stuff and make it less time consuming to 'part time crafters'. -remove interdependance -remove subs -more experience -exp from writs You just sad all the time until now its good to get more people into crafting. Now you prolly see where it will end. 'Everyone' is crafting therefore the market is shrinking. *sigh </blockquote>Show me where I said all the time it was good to get more people in. I have said consistently that people in trades just as passers-by/self serving was a terrible thing but have never had issue with people that actually wanted to craft for crafting sake.That I have competition as or more dedicated as myself has never bothered me; I've always said that making things too easy/fast was a really, really bad idea. This is not part of a natural progression because in all the previous examples the mechanics were broken or working poorly. The last XP boost was Oct. '05 and I say it was a godsend without being too much. Others of course will disagree but by and large those who felt cheated were only being competed with by those who'd already made significant progress. Subs and interdependence were horribly broken in how they were implemented in this game and were just extra steps for their own sake. The only thing removing subs did of substance was change it so you could make finals right off the bat. XP per craft went up, XP per resource went down and harvest time went up. Overall,no subs made things more tedious in some ways but less when you were done leveling and I still support it because it was good for the customer. The only winners in the no-sub world XP-wise were scholars since pristine bonus was never rebalanced for the new mechanics- which is exactly how I feel this was better fixed. There is a huge difference between accessibility,which previous changes addressed, and trivialization which thus far this seems to do.

Tokam

08-06-2007, 06:08 AM

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>Are the people complaining the same ones who complained that they didn't have enough recipes to level up on Pristine bonuses? Gratz, you're all Sages. Level away! </blockquote> Nah sorry, its just too fast to level as it is. My prov and carp will be lvl 80 on the day of rok release, I rolled an alchemist this weekend and she is already into t5.The writ bonus is fine but the xp bonus from making your first pristine needs removing. This, I think, is what should have been done in the first place but while its in its present state im going to get an alchy and, maybe a tailor? to 70 rather than [Removed for Content] and whine here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Yay for easymode <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

khanthemighty

08-06-2007, 09:22 AM

Domino, I think that the changes from LU37 have been great, with very little oversights. Its refreshing to have this much attention paid to an area of the game and have this much resounding success. Its too bad combat changes can't be this painless.../pat on back

Meio

08-06-2007, 10:22 AM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meiox2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Deson wrote: Thats just a consequential sequel of all the changes they made to TS to increase the speed of producing TS stuff and make it less time consuming to 'part time crafters'. -remove interdependance -remove subs -more experience -exp from writs You just sad all the time until now its good to get more people into crafting. Now you prolly see where it will end. 'Everyone' is crafting therefore the market is shrinking. *sigh </blockquote>Show me where I said all the time it was good to get more people in. I have said consistently that people in trades just as passers-by/self serving was a terrible thing but have never had issue with people that actually wanted to craft for crafting sake.That I have competition as or more dedicated as myself has never bothered me; I've always said that making things too easy/fast was a really, really bad idea. This is not part of a natural progression because in all the previous examples the mechanics were broken or working poorly. The last XP boost was Oct. '05 and I say it was a godsend without being too much. Others of course will disagree but by and large those who felt cheated were only being competed with by those who'd already made significant progress. Subs and interdependence were horribly broken in how they were implemented in this game and were just extra steps for their own sake. The only thing removing subs did of substance was change it so you could make finals right off the bat. XP per craft went up, XP per resource went down and harvest time went up. Overall,no subs made things more tedious in some ways but less when you were done leveling and I still support it because it was good for the customer. The only winners in the no-sub world XP-wise were scholars since pristine bonus was never rebalanced for the new mechanics- which is exactly how I feel this was better fixed. There is a huge difference between accessibility,which previous changes addressed, and trivialization which thus far this seems to do. </blockquote>I have to disagree that subs have been broken. What has been and is still broken is the process of crafting itself. With eleminating subs they just reduced the time per Item you have to interact with the broken process of crafting. But it didn't solve any problems of the crafting process. I mean the crafting process is just boring as hell and is full dependent on a random generator and not on skill. You have no chance to avoid a bad series of events, even if you are the best tradeskiller. If they should have fixed something then they should have fixed the process itself and not the steps it takes you to get to the final Item.

Obadiah

08-06-2007, 10:41 AM

<cite>Tokamak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>Are the people complaining the same ones who complained that they didn't have enough recipes to level up on Pristine bonuses? Gratz, you're all Sages. Level away! </blockquote> Nah sorry, its just too fast to level as it is. My prov and carp will be lvl 80 on the day of rok release, I rolled an alchemist this weekend and she is already into t5.The writ bonus is fine but the xp bonus from making your first pristine needs removing. This, I think, is what should have been done in the first place but while its in its present state im going to get an alchy and, maybe a tailor? to 70 rather than [I cannot control my vocabulary] and whine here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Yay for easymode <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>You know, before experiencing this massive writ XP bonus first-hand, I would have said you were crazy. The XP from these writs is crazy (4 writs to go from level 69 to 70) But it is a great equalizer. If you took out the bonus XP from 1st pristines and left this writ XP the way it is. . . all classes would be just as easy to level, and maybe people would stop pointing fingers at Sages and Alchemists. (Although . . . *I* won't stop, because I remember from launch how Alchemists tried to rule the world)

denmom

08-06-2007, 11:28 AM

Just adding my own few cents... With all the troubles I have crafting on my Weaponsmith (the same who's the L70 with very bad pulls harvesting due to hateful RNG), I finally started to level him again. Armed with skill potions I've left, raws, and fuels, I went to it. Even with my notorious and witnessed in RL bad crafting luck, I managed to wrangle two levels in about an hour and a half with writs. Before, it'd have taken me much longer with all the fighting for durability I have to do. I know some dislike if not downright hate the new xp to writs, but for crafters like me who have to fight every step of the way to L70, it's a helping hand up the greased slope of RNG hatefullness. Because of the problems I have with the RNG, I've slowly been slogging my way thru crafting, nearly stopping several times out of frustration. With the writ xp addition, the frustration has become bearable. This is one crafter who very much encourages keeping the writ xp in-game. Thank you very much, Domino! *bows*

StormCinder

08-06-2007, 11:54 AM

<cite>Meiox2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meiox2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Deson wrote: Thats just a consequential sequel of all the changes they made to TS to increase the speed of producing TS stuff and make it less time consuming to 'part time crafters'. -remove interdependance -remove subs -more experience -exp from writs You just sad all the time until now its good to get more people into crafting. Now you prolly see where it will end. 'Everyone' is crafting therefore the market is shrinking. *sigh </blockquote>Show me where I said all the time it was good to get more people in. I have said consistently that people in trades just as passers-by/self serving was a terrible thing but have never had issue with people that actually wanted to craft for crafting sake.That I have competition as or more dedicated as myself has never bothered me; I've always said that making things too easy/fast was a really, really bad idea. This is not part of a natural progression because in all the previous examples the mechanics were broken or working poorly. The last XP boost was Oct. '05 and I say it was a godsend without being too much. Others of course will disagree but by and large those who felt cheated were only being competed with by those who'd already made significant progress. Subs and interdependence were horribly broken in how they were implemented in this game and were just extra steps for their own sake. The only thing removing subs did of substance was change it so you could make finals right off the bat. XP per craft went up, XP per resource went down and harvest time went up. Overall,no subs made things more tedious in some ways but less when you were done leveling and I still support it because it was good for the customer. The only winners in the no-sub world XP-wise were scholars since pristine bonus was never rebalanced for the new mechanics- which is exactly how I feel this was better fixed. There is a huge difference between accessibility,which previous changes addressed, and trivialization which thus far this seems to do. </blockquote>I have to disagree that subs have been broken. What has been and is still broken is the process of crafting itself. With eleminating subs they just reduced the time per Item you have to interact with the broken process of crafting. But it didn't solve any problems of the crafting process. I mean the crafting process is just boring as hell and is full dependent on a random generator and not on skill. You have no chance to avoid a bad series of events, even if you are the best tradeskiller. If they should have fixed something then they should have fixed the process itself and not the steps it takes you to get to the final Item. </blockquote>1) I think anyone who has spent time on these boards realizes how much people craft and how seriously they feel about it and enjoy the process. 2a) Pretty sure all of the changes have made the supposed "RNG" less and less a factor.2b) As some of the hundreds of threads on the forum point out, there is no excuse for not getting pristines, except bad technique. The only negative repurcussion of making crafting more accessible seems to be the attraction of "less-involved" crafters to the 'mini-game' of crafting who then pipe up with their cursory observations.SC

Deson

08-06-2007, 12:06 PM

<cite>Meiox2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have to disagree that subs have been broken. What has been and is still broken is the process of crafting itself. With eleminating subs they just reduced the time per Item you have to interact with the broken process of crafting. But it didn't solve any problems of the crafting process. I mean the crafting process is just boring as hell and is full dependent on a random generator and not on skill. You have no chance to avoid a bad series of events, even if you are the best tradeskiller. If they should have fixed something then they should have fixed the process itself and not the steps it takes you to get to the final Item. </blockquote>Due to the sensitivity of this argument, this is as far as I'm going to respond to this- Subs were not broken as a concept, they were broken as an implementation. Crafting is primarily about customer service. Subs were created and put in, not to actually add to the process but to support the concept of interdependency. Skipping details on the hassles of the poorly implemented interdependency, when interdependency was killed, at that point all they substantively were was a block between the customer order and its fulfillment. That customers couldn't get orders done because there were too few tradeskillers and those that were about refused to do certain orders because of how tedious they were for the payoff, broke the primary function of trades. Lacking genuine purpose and its only substantive purpose dead, the only two reasons to keep subs post interdependency were to overhaul them and make them mean something or remove them. Since the former was tremendous work for a problem that needed to be addressed rather swiftly and they likely lacked the technical capacity for, the latter was the better choice. Maybe that's not how they decided it but that is the most logical path. The crafting process and grind is indeed boring but I would argue it's very involved and I have never once lost a fight with the RNG that I wanted to win- no matter how long it took. The best tradeskillers guarantee pristine because they know exactly what they are doing and the RNG being evil just makes things interesting. Sure I can agree that the process itself should be changed but, the problems so many complain about are either deep seeded in the system back at SOE that makes some players severely unluckier than normal or people on the other side of the keyboard that just need to accept they need more help/just aren't as good as they think they are. Even much of the leveling complaints needed to be compared against what people wanted from the system and what it was intended to do. Heck, had the original implementation actually worked and I didn't like it, I would have just sucked it up and accepted it just wasn't for me just as I did in EQ1 when I quit and EQ2 when I decided against all raiding;just because I don't like something doesn't mean it's broken and that's a charge I try to be very careful about making. As said, I can agree about changes needing to be made but, I also have to pay attention to another facet of what makes trades boring- the grind is pointless and there is no content of any note. While things add to it, there are few items that stand out and there isn't that significant a difference in my experience between having the items and not- no matter what I'm wearing, I'm getting that pristine if I want it. The lack of anything except the grind makes it a really hard to seriously consider the changes needed to make crafting interesting. It may well be the process is fine but can't shine because it's overused in the grind and only the grind. The only reason I found it tolerable was because I had a goal and every writ was a step closer to that goal- to supply anyone who asked for my help anything they needed. With all the changes from launch to now that got core accessibility just about right, perhaps people should have just accepted their goals just weren't important enough for the investment. Changes should be made, but let's make sure we are doing them for the right reasons and to accomplish our long term goals....And having said that, I really can't be sure what those goals are any more.

Calris

08-06-2007, 12:37 PM

Compromises/ideas to improve crafting (I'm sure some may have been suggested before, if not all): -Keep the writ bonus, drop the pristine bonus (suggested by others in this thread already) -Keep both, lower the writ and/or pristine bonus by half -More random events -- good and bad. ( One that chains and auto-fails the whole process, losing all the mats, if you don't counter the whole thing or at least a massive durability hit, for instance ) -More crafting related quests -Bring back a limited form of sub-combines, but nix the major interdependency. ( Fewer steps on the subs as well ) -A way to customize the product. ( Full customization can't be done, but perhaps a way to tweak the stats on weapons/armors and so forth. Less damage on a dagger for more stats/vice versa, for example? )

Calthine

08-06-2007, 01:58 PM

<cite>Meiox2 wrote:</cite><blockquote> You just sad all the time until now its good to get more people into crafting. Now you prolly see where it will end. 'Everyone' is crafting therefore the market is shrinking. *sigh </blockquote> Funny, that's what everyone said on all those other changes...

greenmantle

08-07-2007, 12:55 AM

I must add my thanks it was always a choice between grinding writs to help the guild, making things that would actually make a profit or chasing the bonuses. It is wonderfull to be able to get a resonable exp rate while still being seen to help the guild level. There are always a thousands screams when things go wrong nice to see a thread cheering when things go right. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Meio

08-07-2007, 02:26 AM

<cite>StormCinder wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meiox2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meiox2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Deson wrote: Thats just a consequential sequel of all the changes they made to TS to increase the speed of producing TS stuff and make it less time consuming to 'part time crafters'. -remove interdependance -remove subs -more experience -exp from writs You just sad all the time until now its good to get more people into crafting. Now you prolly see where it will end. 'Everyone' is crafting therefore the market is shrinking. *sigh </blockquote>Show me where I said all the time it was good to get more people in. I have said consistently that people in trades just as passers-by/self serving was a terrible thing but have never had issue with people that actually wanted to craft for crafting sake.That I have competition as or more dedicated as myself has never bothered me; I've always said that making things too easy/fast was a really, really bad idea. This is not part of a natural progression because in all the previous examples the mechanics were broken or working poorly. The last XP boost was Oct. '05 and I say it was a godsend without being too much. Others of course will disagree but by and large those who felt cheated were only being competed with by those who'd already made significant progress. Subs and interdependence were horribly broken in how they were implemented in this game and were just extra steps for their own sake. The only thing removing subs did of substance was change it so you could make finals right off the bat. XP per craft went up, XP per resource went down and harvest time went up. Overall,no subs made things more tedious in some ways but less when you were done leveling and I still support it because it was good for the customer. The only winners in the no-sub world XP-wise were scholars since pristine bonus was never rebalanced for the new mechanics- which is exactly how I feel this was better fixed. There is a huge difference between accessibility,which previous changes addressed, and trivialization which thus far this seems to do. </blockquote>I have to disagree that subs have been broken. What has been and is still broken is the process of crafting itself. With eleminating subs they just reduced the time per Item you have to interact with the broken process of crafting. But it didn't solve any problems of the crafting process. I mean the crafting process is just boring as hell and is full dependent on a random generator and not on skill. You have no chance to avoid a bad series of events, even if you are the best tradeskiller. If they should have fixed something then they should have fixed the process itself and not the steps it takes you to get to the final Item. </blockquote>1) I think anyone who has spent time on these boards realizes how much people craft and how seriously they feel about it and enjoy the process. 2a) Pretty sure all of the changes have made the supposed "RNG" less and less a factor.2b) As some of the hundreds of threads on the forum point out, there is no excuse for not getting pristines, except bad technique. The only negative repurcussion of making crafting more accessible seems to be the attraction of "less-involved" crafters to the 'mini-game' of crafting who then pipe up with their cursory observations.SC</blockquote>1) People must really like the process, since many watch tv while crafting or do other stuff in parallel, while smashing the buttons 2a) only since you dont have to produce subs anymore. But I'm sure the rng is the same he was at the beginning. 2b) Its not about not getting pristine. Sometimes you can push progress like hell and fly through it, then, while crafting the same way, you have to push durability like hell to not loose the Item and it takes you 2-3 times the average time to do it. It would be like every 3. or 4. green mob has 3 times the hitpoints and hit 3 times as hard. I just find it frustrating that its not depenedent on the crafters skill how long it takes to make an item.

Bewts

08-07-2007, 03:32 AM

I've been around a while. Been an alchemist since week one that EQ2 went live? I did the WORT thing - made pretty good money but it felt like living in a fast paced world where you could never fill the requests fast enough. I did Adept3 combines after a while for tips, used the loams for rare potions and poisons that sold well. Been through a couple revamps on the system as I bet many people on these forums have as well.I'd like to ask yourselves to all think back to a time when you were at the level cap, selling your products. I used to work with my competitive alchemist friends to agree on a price. I am sure some of you do/did too. What was the most frustrating thing when you found a price your customer(s) was/were content on paying?For me, it was the guy who was busy leveling up and dumped 200 of each potion on the broker for just above cost. More times than not, I'd just buy the supply out and re-distribute it later. Granted, I had the funds to afford such exploits so it wasn't a big deal to me.The biggest benefit everyone will see with writs giving xp bonuses is going to be how little of the 'cheap' product is available. I can't stress how important that is to 'stabalize' a market. Granted it a free market - but minimizing the blind flooding of supply into a market at prices just above cost will definitely limit the times a market gets turned upside down for the daily sellers who make a 'living' selling their wares.You can throw on status for yourself, for your guild, a bit of cash and of course some XP reward for doing writs - if its faster to level doing writs than it is the 'traditional' way then for times like now with no real 'new' content to push through I can see a significant benefit to the tradeskill community. Those people leveling up alts and dumping product will be void of the market if its faster to do writs.With RoK not too too far off... I can see issues with everyone leveling through writs and a bare market of tradeskilled goods until people finish up their leveling.

TaleraRis

08-08-2007, 04:53 AM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>All classes use about the same resources per tier, feel free to count it. </blockquote>I wanted to get some hard numbers on this, so I've logged in my crafters and compared their resource usage at the same level, level 51 (my lowest Tier 6 crafter's level) Weaponsmith: 5 indium, 3 stonehide leather, 2 succulent roots = 10 resources Carpenter: 4 sandalwood, 3 succulent roots, 3 indium = 10 resources (The stove recipe differs slightly, but the majority use these) Tailor: 9 succulent roots, 1 stonehide leather for cloth = 10 resources 6 stonehide leather, 5 succulent roots, 1 sandalwood for leather = 12 resources 4 stonehide leather, 3 indium, 3 succulent roots for bandoliers = 10 resources Woodworker: 5 sandalwood, 3 stonehide leather, 2 indium = 10 resources (bows differ slightly) 5 sandalwood, 3 indium for harvesting items = 8 resources 1 sandalwood, 1 succulent root, 1 indium for totems = 3 resources 1 indium, 1 succulent root, 1 sandalwood for arrows = 3 resources Provisioner: Due to the variety in recipes, this one is hard to judge. But a quick perusal from 51 to 54 shows a general trend of no more than 1 or 2 of a raw being used, with as many as 4 types of raws used, although more usually 2 to 3 types and 1 to 2 types of storebought good such as dough, cream cheese, etc. So total consumption of resources that are harvested appears to run from 1 to 4 with root being the only type of non-bush harvest I see used and even then, only 1 per recipe. Jeweler: As this level is just CAs, I jumped into the tier a bit more to get some jewelry results, too 1 soluble loam, 3 succulent roots, 2 beryllium, 2 indium for CAs = 8 resources 5 nacre, 3 beryllium, 2 indium for some jewelry = 10 resources 7 beryllium, 3 indium for some other jewelry = 10 resources Belts, books, scarves etc differ slightly, with a stonehide leather or roots tossed in either for nacre or in addition Alchemist: Again, to give a more accurate view, I looked a bit more into the tier 2 loam, 4 succulent roots, 3 nacre for CAs = 9 resources 1 loam, 1 beryllium, 1 succulent root for most potions and poisons = 3 resources Sage: 1 beryllium or 1 nacre depending on class, 4 succulent roots, 4 sandalwood = 9 resources There are some hard numbers. I'll agree, after looking at just that, that your statement about equal numbers of resource usage is correct. However, some classes use higher numbers of more sought-after resources and either are expected to pay exorbitant amounts or try to fight others just to get the supplies they need. Here I will also post a breakdown of current broker lows on my server, Najena. Beryllium clusters - 2c Rough nacre - 2c Severed sandalwood - 83c Soluble loam - 1s, 10c Indium cluster - 4s, 40c Stonehide leather pelt - 9s, 40c Succulent roots - 16s, 50c I'm leaving out provisioners for the moment because maybe someone with more stamina this late at night can give a more in-depth comparison on them. I don't use her that much and so I"m less familiar. Same with my armorer who is left out because she's only Tier 3 currently. Now a comparison of expenditure minus fuels if raws were acquired from the broker only and using the lowest possible resource consumption to assume a grinding situation prior to the tradeskill writ xp: Weaponsmith: 83s, 20c Carpenter: 66s, 2c Tailor: 1g, 30c Woodworker: 21s, 73c Jeweler: 8s, 96c (the recipes that are most frugal are actually the ones that use more with cheaper components) Alchemist: 17s, 62c Sage: 69s, 32c (If anyone figures cheaper combines from the info given, please point them out. It's late and the brain stops to work at midnight, so I may have goofed somewhere. I also didn't thorough check all recipes for the least resource consumption, so if someone knows of one with lesser resource consumption in that tier, post that, too. It's good to have the most accurate info possible for a comparison like this) As can be seen, in terms of cost of resources for grinding purposes, there's a vast difference based on the scarcity of the materials used. I know in the past that hard metal on my server has been a lot more, usually vying with the roots for the top spot. This is just a quick screenshot of one moment on one server. Now, when you factor in not gaining all resources from the broker, there's an imbalance present as well. Succulent roots, sandalwood and stonehide leather pelts in my harvesting experience have been reasonably easy to harvest in Sinking Sands, using the Twin Tears area and the grassy areas near the docks. Beryllium and nacre if not easy to get, are never more than 2c and there are excessive amounts available from the broker. Loam and indium can be the bottle necks, although loam has much less of a consumption rate than indium does in regular tradeskills (not counting secondary). Even when these materials are available on the broker, they tend to be in much smaller numbers than other readily broker-available resources, and when attempting to harvest, there is inevitably the problem with others monopolizing areas they know the metal nodes will spawn in or cherry picking only the hard metal nodes in the spawn areas and leaving the soft metal nodes. All of this contributes to a much lower rate of acquisition of hard metal, which makes it more difficult on those classes that use the most hard metal (weaponsmiths and from what I've seen on my armorer, armorsmiths as well) and that have most of their recipes that have this rate of consumption on the hard metal. Previously, not only did these classes suffer in higher resource consumption of more sought-after resources, but also had the problem of far fewer recipes for first-time pristine bonuses which resulted in having to spend quite a bit more time grinding out normal xp recipes while other classes were able to rely more on those bonuses (my sage, for instance, got her entire level 57 through first-time bonuses only) and thus would level much faster. That is why evening out the imbalance in level speed I can only view as a good thing. The resource consumption problem is still present, but it is a much easier pill to swallow when the agonizing tedium that was leveling these lower recipe/high rarer resource consumption classes is alleviated by receiving a boost from what many of us were doing after first-time pristine bonuses to assist our guild anyway. I also view quicker leveling not as a bad thing, but as a general good. Right now, the only real way to differentiate in crafting is by level. Hopefully, since they have smoothed out the road to getting to the cap in tradeskilling, they can focus on ways that will give crafters who want to put in extra effort a way to be recognized, such as building up faction by crafting items for certain NPCs that will give access to tradeskill quests leading to unique and interesting recipes or quests to allow extra-mile crafters to customize what they make more than they currently can, making their merchandise at least marketable and in some way able to compete with the current vastly superior drops. I would very much like to see tradeskilling move past leveling concerns and into more territory that deals with the world outside the crafting table.

Spangles

08-08-2007, 06:30 AM

Nice post, TaleraRis, very informative.I think it would be safe to say that Armourers would easily be the most expensive to have to fund through a grind on Runnyeye server - they have low number of pristine bonusses due to the lack of new recipes, and the three components they use in their recipes are the three most expensive on the broker (4 hard metal, 3 pelts and 3 roots). The last time I looked roots were far away the most expensive, followed closely by hard metal, then loams. I re-rolled my 49 Armourer to be an Alchemist and I reckon that because Alchys have a high end use that I will actually get from Lvl 10 to 70 faster than I would have done so getting him from 49 to 70 as an Armourer!!

Deson

08-08-2007, 07:57 AM

<cite>TaleraRis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>All classes use about the same resources per tier, feel free to count it. </blockquote>I wanted to get some hard numbers on this, so I've logged in my crafters and compared their resource usage at the same level, level 51 (my lowest Tier 6 crafter's level) I'll agree, after looking at just that, that your statement about equal numbers of resource usage is correct. However, some classes use higher numbers of more sought-after resources and either are expected to pay exorbitant amounts or try to fight others just to get the supplies they need. Now, when you factor in not gaining all resources from the broker, there's an imbalance present as well. Succulent roots, sandalwood and stonehide leather pelts in my harvesting experience have been reasonably easy to harvest in Sinking Sands, using the Twin Tears area and the grassy areas near the docks. Beryllium and nacre if not easy to get, are never more than 2c and there are excessive amounts available from the broker. Loam and indium can be the bottle necks, although loam has much less of a consumption rate than indium does in regular tradeskills (not counting secondary). Even when these materials are available on the broker, they tend to be in much smaller numbers than other readily broker-available resources, and when attempting to harvest, there is inevitably the problem with others monopolizing areas they know the metal nodes will spawn in or cherry picking only the hard metal nodes in the spawn areas and leaving the soft metal nodes. All of this contributes to a much lower rate of acquisition of hard metal, which makes it more difficult on those classes that use the most hard metal (weaponsmiths and from what I've seen on my armorer, armorsmiths as well) and that have most of their recipes that have this rate of consumption on the hard metal. Previously, not only did these classes suffer in higher resource consumption of more sought-after resources, but also had the problem of far fewer recipes for first-time pristine bonuses which resulted in having to spend quite a bit more time grinding out normal xp recipes while other classes were able to rely more on those bonuses (my sage, for instance, got her entire level 57 through first-time bonuses only) and thus would level much faster. That is why evening out the imbalance in level speed I can only view as a good thing. The resource consumption problem is still present, but it is a much easier pill to swallow when the agonizing tedium that was leveling these lower recipe/high rarer resource consumption classes is alleviated by receiving a boost from what many of us were doing after first-time pristine bonuses to assist our guild anyway. I also view quicker leveling not as a bad thing, but as a general good. Right now, the only real way to differentiate in crafting is by level. Hopefully, since they have smoothed out the road to getting to the cap in tradeskilling, they can focus on ways that will give crafters who want to put in extra effort a way to be recognized, such as building up faction by crafting items for certain NPCs that will give access to tradeskill quests leading to unique and interesting recipes or quests to allow extra-mile crafters to customize what they make more than they currently can, making their merchandise at least marketable and in some way able to compete with the current vastly superior drops. I would very much like to see tradeskilling move past leveling concerns and into more territory that deals with the world outside the crafting table. </blockquote>Your post was really long so please forgive me for the edit and if I take anything out of context. I picked what I felt were the most relevant points while keeping the core of what you posted in tact.The post you quoted from me has what would be the first part of my reply...actually the bulk of my reply, this is really more just a restatement for clarity since I'm not sure if you understood the core of the quoted post. You said essentially what I did with your analysis-all classes use roughly the same resources and that the problem comes in with resource types. I've argued almost since they went in that ever elevating raw costs was a compounding problem since xp per craft went down anyway, automatically forcing more harvesting. Really, the consumption rates put in were like twisting the knife in the no-sub world since all we made were finals and raws consumption went up by virtue of that as well. Factor in the increased costs as well...essentially there were enough increasing things to not have the escalating raws model we do now. Rebalancing xp and raw usage were the true answers there, not sidestepping it all with a ridiculously high xp rate.This is a drastic change that, since it's in the way it is now, will be very difficult to change much. What I bolded is my concern and was stated as my concern in the quoted post. The city factions are out of the question for those special recipes now with all the incentive given by the new writs. It's also an unconfirmed and unmanifested hope for these new ways to stand out. What we have on hand is essentially a flat system now where a little work makes you just as effective as someone dedicated and you don't even really have to commit yourself. I despised that factor already when it came to sage leveling speed, now I can despise it over all the trades. If sufficient venues come in that allow dedicated crafters to stand out significantly for an appropriate TS dedicated effort, I withdraw my complaint.Of course, none of these things exist now and the only avenues for a crafter to show out as a dedicated crafter have just been trivialized. The future may bring a lot but right now, there is nothing. If this is indeed the quick fix to kill balance by numbers, it could have waited; there was no crisis of goods availability with the exception perhaps of weaponsmiths. I hope that better things are in the works but, since those things aren't in now, have yet to be seen and have a lot of ground to make up over all these years, you'll have to forgive me if I don't think much of it until I see it live.

Deson

08-08-2007, 08:46 AM

<cite>Tygerpaws wrote:</cite><blockquote>Again, that's 6 hours a week for 4 months straight (I find that a very conservative estimate, but still. In fact, I'd say that's more like what would be required -after- writ xp. Probably less. 4 months would be roughly 16 weeks. A level per hour (Edit: I still find the "1 level per hour" figure to be off, too) at 6 hours a week for 16 weeks would take you to 56) -JUST- tradeskilling. And, no, it does not trivialize it. I'm sorry, I simply disagree with you completely on that point. "Tradeskill or adventure exclusively" should be a choice, not a requirement for casual and hardcore gamers alike. Edit 2: Also note that these leveling time figures are -just- actual crafting time. Harvesting or acquiring the coin to buy the resources takes up even more time. So, to be blunt, saying that you could hit the level cap on crafting in 4 months at 6 hours a week pre-writ xp is pure BS. Even post writ xp it's completely unrealistic. Unless you're talking about leveling an alt that's had tons of coin dumped on him from your main (Or you went out and bought plat) so you could buy all the resources you needed off the broker. </blockquote>I just noticed you edited this. It's not BS.It might be off by a week or two either way, but I've proven it by doing it. It simply doesn't take that long to craft off a week's vitality. If you'd like Domino herself to verify it(if she wants to bother that is), she can check the logs on my account from July 06 to November 06. Because I was bringing up 8 simultaneously, the only practical way to do that without going nuts was to craft only when there was vitality. Otherwise, resources would have been eaten up far faster than I could reasonably harvest. The longest it took me to burn off 1 weeks vitality was 2hours of non-intense play. The trick when I got to hard to acquire raws was to grind up on the easier ones where it was an option. With 2 hours alloted for crafting, that leaves 4 hours to harvest. It simply doesn't take that long to get the volume you'd need for any craft- especially not now.

Calris

08-08-2007, 10:06 AM

So...what, now you're saying you got to the cap in 4 months by only 2 hours of -actual- crafting time a week, then 4 hours a week of harvesting? No, now I'm flat-out calling you a liar if that's what you're saying. Because that works out to more than 2 levels per hour pre writ exp. And you're the one saying one level per hour is too fast.

Deson

08-08-2007, 10:24 AM

<cite>Tygerpaws wrote:</cite><blockquote>So...what, now you're saying you got to the cap in 4 months by only 2 hours of -actual- crafting time a week, then 4 hours a week of harvesting? No, now I'm flat-out calling you a liar if that's what you're saying. Because that works out to more than 2 levels per hour pre writ exp. And you're the one saying one level per hour is too fast. </blockquote> .....I got nothing for you. Nothing at all. Calling me a liar when you obviously neither understand the speed of the first few levels nor just how potent pristine bonus and vitality are and the time comparison I stated earlier in the thread... I got nothing at all.

Calris

08-08-2007, 10:53 AM

No, I understand perfectly. You said that people experiencing leveling speeds of 1 per hour were leveling too fast. These were people with vitality bonuses (As it was mentioned how they wouldn't burn through their vitality quite as fast). It's a logical assumption that pristine bonuses were factoring into their speed. Now you're claiming that before xp writs went in you leveled 8 crafters at an average of 2 levels per hour all the way to the cap. There is a conflict in stories here, bub. If you can't see it, you're blind or stupid.

Deson

08-08-2007, 10:56 AM

<cite>Tygerpaws wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I understand perfectly. You said that people experiencing leveling speeds of 1 per hour were leveling too fast. These were people with vitality bonuses (As it was mentioned how they wouldn't burn through their vitality quite as fast). It's a logical assumption that pristine bonuses were factoring into their speed. Now you're claiming that before xp writs went in you leveled 8 crafters at an average of 2 levels per hour all the way to the cap. There is a conflict in stories here, bub. If you can't see it, you're blind or stupid. </blockquote>You misread what I posted earlier but again, I got nothing for you.

Calris

08-08-2007, 11:00 AM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tygerpaws wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I understand perfectly. You said that people experiencing leveling speeds of 1 per hour were leveling too fast. These were people with vitality bonuses (As it was mentioned how they wouldn't burn through their vitality quite as fast). It's a logical assumption that pristine bonuses were factoring into their speed. Now you're claiming that before xp writs went in you leveled 8 crafters at an average of 2 levels per hour all the way to the cap. There is a conflict in stories here, bub. If you can't see it, you're blind or stupid. </blockquote>You misread what I posted earlier but again, I got nothing for you. </blockquote> Then do tell, what did I misread? And which post did I misread? The one where you talked about crafting for 2 hours to burn through a week's worth of vitality, leaving you 4 hours to harvest? IOW, 6 hours a week... And you made it to the cap in 4 months. Average of 2 levels per hour. Maybe it wasn't so much that I misread but rather that you misspoke?

Deson

08-08-2007, 11:03 AM

Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tygerpaws wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I understand perfectly. You said that people experiencing leveling speeds of 1 per hour were leveling too fast. These were people with vitality bonuses (As it was mentioned how they wouldn't burn through their vitality quite as fast). It's a logical assumption that pristine bonuses were factoring into their speed. Now you're claiming that before xp writs went in you leveled 8 crafters at an average of 2 levels per hour all the way to the cap. There is a conflict in stories here, bub. If you can't see it, you're blind or stupid. </blockquote>You misread what I posted earlier but again, I got nothing for you. </blockquote> Then do tell, what did I misread? And which post did I misread? The one where you talked about crafting for 2 hours to burn through a week's worth of vitality, leaving you 4 hours to harvest? IOW, 6 hours a week... And you made it to the cap in 4 months. Average of 2 levels per hour. Maybe it wasn't so much that I misread but rather that you misspoke? </blockquote>No. I've been perfectly accurate but again, I got nothing for you.

Calris

08-08-2007, 11:32 AM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tygerpaws wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I understand perfectly. You said that people experiencing leveling speeds of 1 per hour were leveling too fast. These were people with vitality bonuses (As it was mentioned how they wouldn't burn through their vitality quite as fast). It's a logical assumption that pristine bonuses were factoring into their speed. Now you're claiming that before xp writs went in you leveled 8 crafters at an average of 2 levels per hour all the way to the cap. There is a conflict in stories here, bub. If you can't see it, you're blind or stupid. </blockquote>You misread what I posted earlier but again, I got nothing for you. </blockquote> Then do tell, what did I misread? And which post did I misread? The one where you talked about crafting for 2 hours to burn through a week's worth of vitality, leaving you 4 hours to harvest? IOW, 6 hours a week... And you made it to the cap in 4 months. Average of 2 levels per hour. Maybe it wasn't so much that I misread but rather that you misspoke? </blockquote>No. I've been perfectly accurate but again, I got nothing for you. </blockquote> Okay, fine. I gave you an opportunity to save face, but right now it looks like you've been caught in a lie and you're taking on a condescending attitude in a pathetic attempt to weasel out of it. I mean, really, how do you think it looks when I ask you to tell me where I'm wrong and all you respond with is "I got nothing for you"? Edit: Fiddled with posting preference. Didn't realize "persona" was my display name. :p

Deson

08-08-2007, 11:36 AM

Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tygerpaws wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I understand perfectly. You said that people experiencing leveling speeds of 1 per hour were leveling too fast. These were people with vitality bonuses (As it was mentioned how they wouldn't burn through their vitality quite as fast). It's a logical assumption that pristine bonuses were factoring into their speed. Now you're claiming that before xp writs went in you leveled 8 crafters at an average of 2 levels per hour all the way to the cap. There is a conflict in stories here, bub. If you can't see it, you're blind or stupid. </blockquote>You misread what I posted earlier but again, I got nothing for you. </blockquote> Then do tell, what did I misread? And which post did I misread? The one where you talked about crafting for 2 hours to burn through a week's worth of vitality, leaving you 4 hours to harvest? IOW, 6 hours a week... And you made it to the cap in 4 months. Average of 2 levels per hour. Maybe it wasn't so much that I misread but rather that you misspoke? </blockquote>No. I've been perfectly accurate but again, I got nothing for you. </blockquote> Okay, fine. I gave you an opportunity to save face, but right now it looks like you've been caught in a lie and you're taking on a condescending attitude in a pathetic attempt to weasel out of it. I mean, really, how do you think it looks when I ask you to tell me where I'm wrong and all you respond with is "I got nothing for you"? </blockquote>You called me a liar.That kind of accusation thrown out means I explain nothing. I've been perfectly accurate. I found the post that might be confusing you but it has a context to it form previous posts. Besides that one, I stand by what I stated and any Dev or other crafter who understands it is more than welcome to lay it out. As for me, the word of a liar is nothing so what good does it do me to continue this? Believe what you will, I got nothing for you.

Calris

08-08-2007, 12:06 PM

Whatever. No, your word contradicts itself directly, and if you're not willing to explain to me where I'm mistaken, then you're admitting I'm right. Yes, I called you a liar. Why? Because what you've said here means you are. You're lying in one place or another. Which is it? 1 level per hour post writ xp is too fast or 2 levels per hour pre-writ xp is normal?

dartie

08-08-2007, 12:06 PM

<cite>TaleraRis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wanted to get some hard numbers on this, so I've logged in my crafters and compared their resource usage at the same level, level 51 (my lowest Tier 6 crafter's level) Weaponsmith: 5 indium, 3 stonehide leather, 2 succulent roots = 10 resources Carpenter: 4 sandalwood, 3 succulent roots, 3 indium = 10 resources (The stove recipe differs slightly, but the majority use these) Tailor: 9 succulent roots, 1 stonehide leather for cloth = 10 resources 6 stonehide leather, 5 succulent roots, 1 sandalwood for leather = 12 resources 4 stonehide leather, 3 indium, 3 succulent roots for bandoliers = 10 resources Woodworker: 5 sandalwood, 3 stonehide leather, 2 indium = 10 resources (bows differ slightly) 5 sandalwood, 3 indium for harvesting items = 8 resources 1 sandalwood, 1 succulent root, 1 indium for totems = 3 resources 1 indium, 1 succulent root, 1 sandalwood for arrows = 3 resources Provisioner: Due to the variety in recipes, this one is hard to judge. But a quick perusal from 51 to 54 shows a general trend of no more than 1 or 2 of a raw being used, with as many as 4 types of raws used, although more usually 2 to 3 types and 1 to 2 types of storebought good such as dough, cream cheese, etc. So total consumption of resources that are harvested appears to run from 1 to 4 with root being the only type of non-bush harvest I see used and even then, only 1 per recipe. Jeweler: As this level is just CAs, I jumped into the tier a bit more to get some jewelry results, too 1 soluble loam, 3 succulent roots, 2 beryllium, 2 indium for CAs = 8 resources 5 nacre, 3 beryllium, 2 indium for some jewelry = 10 resources 7 beryllium, 3 indium for some other jewelry = 10 resources Belts, books, scarves etc differ slightly, with a stonehide leather or roots tossed in either for nacre or in addition Alchemist: Again, to give a more accurate view, I looked a bit more into the tier 2 loam, 4 succulent roots, 3 nacre for CAs = 9 resources 1 loam, 1 beryllium, 1 succulent root for most potions and poisons = 3 resources Sage: 1 beryllium or 1 nacre depending on class, 4 succulent roots, 4 sandalwood = 9 resources There are some hard numbers. I'll agree, after looking at just that, that your statement about equal numbers of resource usage is correct. However, some classes use higher numbers of more sought-after resources and either are expected to pay exorbitant amounts or try to fight others just to get the supplies they need. Here I will also post a breakdown of current broker lows on my server, Najena. Beryllium clusters - 2c Rough nacre - 2c Severed sandalwood - 83c Soluble loam - 1s, 10c Indium cluster - 4s, 40c Stonehide leather pelt - 9s, 40c Succulent roots - 16s, 50c I'm leaving out provisioners for the moment because maybe someone with more stamina this late at night can give a more in-depth comparison on them. I don't use her that much and so I"m less familiar. Same with my armorer who is left out because she's only Tier 3 currently. Now a comparison of expenditure minus fuels if raws were acquired from the broker only and using the lowest possible resource consumption to assume a grinding situation prior to the tradeskill writ xp: Weaponsmith: 83s, 20c Carpenter: 66s, 2c Tailor: 1g, 30c Woodworker: 21s, 73c Jeweler: 8s, 96c (the recipes that are most frugal are actually the ones that use more with cheaper components) Alchemist: 17s, 62c Sage: 69s, 32c (If anyone figures cheaper combines from the info given, please point them out. It's late and the brain stops to work at midnight, so I may have goofed somewhere. I also didn't thorough check all recipes for the least resource consumption, so if someone knows of one with lesser resource consumption in that tier, post that, too. It's good to have the most accurate info possible for a comparison like this) As can be seen, in terms of cost of resources for grinding purposes, there's a vast difference based on the scarcity of the materials used. I know in the past that hard metal on my server has been a lot more, usually vying with the roots for the top spot. This is just a quick screenshot of one moment on one server. Now, when you factor in not gaining all resources from the broker, there's an imbalance present as well. Succulent roots, sandalwood and stonehide leather pelts in my harvesting experience have been reasonably easy to harvest in Sinking Sands, using the Twin Tears area and the grassy areas near the docks. Beryllium and nacre if not easy to get, are never more than 2c and there are excessive amounts available from the broker. Loam and indium can be the bottle necks, although loam has much less of a consumption rate than indium does in regular tradeskills (not counting secondary). Even when these materials are available on the broker, they tend to be in much smaller numbers than other readily broker-available resources, and when attempting to harvest, there is inevitably the problem with others monopolizing areas they know the metal nodes will spawn in or cherry picking only the hard metal nodes in the spawn areas and leaving the soft metal nodes. All of this contributes to a much lower rate of acquisition of hard metal, which makes it more difficult on those classes that use the most hard metal (weaponsmiths and from what I've seen on my armorer, armorsmiths as well) and that have most of their recipes that have this rate of consumption on the hard metal. Previously, not only did these classes suffer in higher resource consumption of more sought-after resources, but also had the problem of far fewer recipes for first-time pristine bonuses which resulted in having to spend quite a bit more time grinding out normal xp recipes while other classes were able to rely more on those bonuses (my sage, for instance, got her entire level 57 through first-time bonuses only) and thus would level much faster. That is why evening out the imbalance in level speed I can only view as a good thing. The resource consumption problem is still present, but it is a much easier pill to swallow when the agonizing tedium that was leveling these lower recipe/high rarer resource consumption classes is alleviated by receiving a boost from what many of us were doing after first-time pristine bonuses to assist our guild anyway. I also view quicker leveling not as a bad thing, but as a general good. Right now, the only real way to differentiate in crafting is by level. Hopefully, since they have smoothed out the road to getting to the cap in tradeskilling, they can focus on ways that will give crafters who want to put in extra effort a way to be recognized, such as building up faction by crafting items for certain NPCs that will give access to tradeskill quests leading to unique and interesting recipes or quests to allow extra-mile crafters to customize what they make more than they currently can, making their merchandise at least marketable and in some way able to compete with the current vastly superior drops. I would very much like to see tradeskilling move past leveling concerns and into more territory that deals with the world outside the crafting table. </blockquote> You've done a fine job here of supporting your position with solid numbers, T. I understand that you had to focus on one tier to make your comparisons useful, but you've focused on the one tier that is roughest on broker-dependent Tailors and Scribes (T6) because of the high cost of succulent roots.If you look at T7 and factor hanging roots into your equation, I suspect that tailors and scribes end up down with jewelers and alchemists in terms of affordability--which just further supports your larger argument that the classes with the MOST recipes also happen to the the classes that use the CHEAPEST resources. (Tailors aren't quite scholars in terms of recipe abundance, but they are FAR better off than armorers, woodworkers, carpenters, and provisioners. My tailor hit 70, in fact, before my sage did.)Woodworkers (who use a LOT of metal), carpenters, and armorers not only get fewer recipes (which means grinding out MORE recipes to achieve the same xp as scholars), but they pay a great deal more for their materials.To illustrate that I fully understand their plight as you make it out, I'll amplify your own point about getting roots in SS. When my tailor couldn't afford succulent roots, I took him to SS to harvest. True, he needed a TON of roots, but it sure was nice to know that every root node I found was going to give me NOTHING but roots (okay, an occasional flower). When I go after metal in any tier, I have to find the nodes (which appear to be less plentiful than roots to begin with) and then *hope* than I get the clusters that I'm after (rather than swamping myself in loams that I could have for 2c on the broker).I therefore agree with your basic assertion that carpenters, woodworkers, and armorers have a ridiculously hard time compared to tailors & scholars when it comes to resource consumption.But here's where I differ from you and everyone else who clamors for balance: The fact that they are harder to level should just make them more valuable to the community. Think of a tailor as a monk and an armorer as a guardian. If you want to solo to 70 as quickly as possible, play the monk. Did you have fun? You did? Great, fun is good. But now you wonder why raiding guilds aren't tripping over themselves to get your monk on their roster. They tell you they have better options for DPS and better options for tanks and that your hybrid functionality isn't particularly useful in a raid. However, they would take you in a heartbeat if you were a guardian. So you roll a guardian alt. It takes a good while longer to solo the guardian to 70 because your DPS isn't great, but when you do finally get there, you find you are very desirable. Did you have fun? You did? Great, fun is good. And it was a different experience, wasn't it? It requires a different mindset and approach to level the armorer than it did to level the tailor--just as it requires a different mindset and approach to level the guardian than it does to level a monk. Your alt isn't simply a REHASH of what you've already done. The distinctions are what make for replayability with a changed class (either tradeskill or adventure). If you start with an armorer but find that the demands on resources and the limited recipes are too tough, you can respec as a sage and get to L70 lickety-split.If you make the armorer exactly like the sage in terms of the number of recipes and the cost of resources, you've just taken away a choice--and turned a fun sort of replayability into a grind/chore. I like choices. Choices are fun. Fun is good.

Illmarr

08-08-2007, 12:25 PM

Deson, I believe you are thinking the faction gained from simply leveling is going to have a larger impact than it will. I'll use my Tailor as an example. She was level 62 before the exp came to writs. She made all her common recipes for pristines. She also made herself Woven leather for each tier up to T6 as she is only a 53 Warden. She also made a set of cloth for the Conjuror she leveled up with. Other than that she did a comission here and there, but 90+% did writs to fill in the leveling gaps, all at Tunare's Pages. At level 62 she had 17kish faction with them. I tailored for about 45 minutes just after the update and she is now 74% into 63 and has 18K faction exactly. to get to 70 will take her approximately 30 more writs rewarding 4500 status so she will hit the second faction tier. With the new bonus, people will not reach this tier accidently as a by-product of leveling. No one is going to become an ally to tradeskill faction simply through leveling. Not even close. So the dedication you're looking for must still be there. Heck, people probably would not even know they had gained the faction title if all they wished to do was level up. So make any recipe quest rewards require one reach the second level of faction (or even third if you think it would be too easy for all those people that accidently got to the first level through leveling) with the Society. After all, they are only for "dedicated" tradeskillers, so this should not be a problem anyway.

Lilj

08-08-2007, 12:28 PM

Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote> Okay, fine. I gave you an opportunity to save face, but right now it looks like you've been caught in a lie and you're taking on a condescending attitude in a pathetic attempt to weasel out of it. I mean, really, how do you think it looks when I ask you to tell me where I'm wrong and all you respond with is "I got nothing for you"? Edit: Fiddled with posting preference. Didn't realize "persona" was my display name. :p </blockquote>Actually, I don't think Deson is the one that needs to save face around here, far from it. His posts make sense, and frankly his reponse 'I've got nothing for you' is rather diplomatic, I know I personally wouldn't be able to be that diplomatic. Now Deson doesn't need me for his defense or anything he can certainly speak for himself, but the thread is getting ugly by your constant attacks. Please just stop Calris, you will do yourself a favor, honestly.

Lilj

08-08-2007, 12:36 PM

I want to ask people in this thread a question and I'm not sure it is easy to answer. But what kind of levelling speed is fair (in general terms) per tier? I am talking pure tradeskilling time here, and I don't include harvesting times. I see the harvesting issues as another issue and hope you will accept that I just ask about the pure tradeskilling time. I am interested in yours views on these three hypothetical questions: 1. Should the levelling speed in general be faster in the start of the career and slower in the end, like the adventurer and tradeskilling until GU37? 2. Should the speed be equally fast through all tiers? So a level will take, e.g., 1 hour to complete regardless of tier. 3. Is 25 minutes for a level in tier 7 too fast? You see, I actually like the new writ xp system. I don't mind some professions getting help with the speed. But and of course there is a but, I simply saw that certain professions and certain tiers went by mind boggling fas (aka 25 minutes for a level). But to me it seems as if this discussion is going black or white, the writ system is either good or bad. What about in between? I think the point I am trying to make is that I think the system is good, but perhaps needs some tweaking. Am I really alone in thinking this? Thanks in advance <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Edit: hopefully some clarification <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Calris

08-08-2007, 12:45 PM

<cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote> Okay, fine. I gave you an opportunity to save face, but right now it looks like you've been caught in a lie and you're taking on a condescending attitude in a pathetic attempt to weasel out of it. I mean, really, how do you think it looks when I ask you to tell me where I'm wrong and all you respond with is "I got nothing for you"? Edit: Fiddled with posting preference. Didn't realize "persona" was my display name. :p </blockquote>Actually, I don't think Deson is the one that needs to save face around here, far from it. His posts make sense, and frankly his reponse 'I've got nothing for you' is rather diplomatic, I know I personally wouldn't be able to be that diplomatic. Now Deson doesn't need me for his defense or anything he can certainly speak for himself, but the thread is getting ugly by your constant attacks. Please just stop Calris, you will do yourself a favor, honestly. </blockquote>He contradicted himself, I called him on it, he started sidestepping with snide patronization.

Calris

08-08-2007, 12:47 PM

<cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote>I want to ask people in this thread a question and I'm not sure it is easy to answer. But what kind of levelling speed is fair (in general terms) per tier? I am talking pure tradeskilling time here, and I don't include harvesting times. I see the harvesting issues as another issue and hope you will accept that I just ask about the pure tradeskilling time. I am interested in yours views on these two questions: 1. Should the speed be faster in the beginning and then slow down towards the later tiers? 2. Should the speed be equally fast through all tiers? 3. Is 25 minutes for a level in tier7 too fast? You see, I actually like the new writ xp system. I don't mind some professions getting help with the speed. But and of course there is a but, I simply saw that certain professions and certain tiers went by mind boggling fas (aka 25 minutes for a level). But to me it seems as if this discussion is going black or white, the writ system is either good or bad. What about in between? I think the point I am trying to make is that I think the system is good, but perhaps needs some tweaking. Am I really alone in thinking this? </blockquote> I think it's fair where it is for most professions. Take out the pristine bonuses to make the leveling speed even across the board (Lower the Scholor fail rates to compensate for losing all their pristine bonuses), and we'll be gravy as far as level speed is concerned, IMO. I had other suggestions up in the thread for making tradeskilling more interesting in general, too, but those aren't relevant to leveling speed.

Illmarr

08-08-2007, 12:54 PM

<cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote>I want to ask people in this thread a question and I'm not sure it is easy to answer. But what kind of levelling speed is fair (in general terms) per tier? I am talking pure tradeskilling time here, and I don't include harvesting times. I see the harvesting issues as another issue and hope you will accept that I just ask about the pure tradeskilling time. I am interested in yours views on these two questions: 1. Should the speed be faster in the beginning and then slow down towards the later tiers? It's like this now IMO. I guess if you looked at it from a real world view, It should take much longer when starting out, and become easier over time as you aquire skill in your profession. Unfortunately, I don't believe that type of curve can work in a game where you want a person's first experiences to be pleasant. In Norrath Tradeskills are for fun (Whether your primary focus or not). In RL Trades are a job. 2. Should the speed be equally fast through all tiers? No. T7 should not be 2 combines/tier like T1 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. But seriously, before the exp for writs, I thought exp in higher tiers could be boosted. I'm going just from memory, but I think a T3 <strike>non-pristine combine</strike> combine after all your pristine bonuses gained about 6% exp. A T4 4.5%, T5 3%, T6 1.5% and T7 1%. I'd have rather seen the exp/combine level out at about 2% or so from T6 on. 3. Is 25 minutes for a level in tier7 too fast? Definately. You see, I actually like the new writ xp system. I don't mind some professions getting help with the speed. But and of course there is a but, I simply saw that certain professions and certain tiers went by mind boggling fas (aka 25 minutes for a level). But to me it seems as if this discussion is going black or white, the writ system is either good or bad. What about in between? I think the point I am trying to make is that I think the system is good, but perhaps needs some tweaking. Am I really alone in thinking this? </blockquote> Edited for clarity

Illmarr

08-08-2007, 12:59 PM

Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote> Okay, fine. I gave you an opportunity to save face, but right now it looks like you've been caught in a lie and you're taking on a condescending attitude in a pathetic attempt to weasel out of it. I mean, really, how do you think it looks when I ask you to tell me where I'm wrong and all you respond with is "I got nothing for you"? Edit: Fiddled with posting preference. Didn't realize "persona" was my display name. :p </blockquote>Actually, I don't think Deson is the one that needs to save face around here, far from it. His posts make sense, and frankly his reponse 'I've got nothing for you' is rather diplomatic, I know I personally wouldn't be able to be that diplomatic. Now Deson doesn't need me for his defense or anything he can certainly speak for himself, but the thread is getting ugly by your constant attacks. Please just stop Calris, you will do yourself a favor, honestly. </blockquote>He contradicted himself, I called him on it, he started sidestepping with snide patronization. </blockquote>Actually, any patronizing was brought upon yourself. If you want to be treated with respect, treat others with respect. Calling someone a liar is not respectful. Next time try something like "It seems you contradict yourself, can you please explain this?" and you may get a better result.

dartie

08-08-2007, 01:36 PM

TaleraRis

08-08-2007, 05:08 PM

dartie wrote: <blockquote>But here's where I differ from you and everyone else who clamors for balance: The fact that they are harder to level should just make them more valuable to the community. </blockquote> The problem with that is that being harder to level probably should make them more valuable, but without marketability, they aren't. My hardest crafter to level in terms of sheer tedium and expenditure has been my weaponsmith, and armorsmith would probably be right up there since they have similar resource consumption and a somewhat more equal marketability when compared to other tradeskilling classes. My carpenter can have me wishing to drill nails through my eyes with the tedium of leveling her, but the bright side is that I know she's going to have a generally good marketability, and that I will want the things she can provide. My woodworker evokes similar feelings, but she provides me with arrows and any totems I could require. I craft mostly for myself and for my guildmates, not really to play the broker game. My weaponsmith offers me virtually nothing, and that's not really the fact that I'm a ranger and rely much more on my bow provided by my woodworker, but that I can easily find something 10 or 20 times better than anything my weaponsmith can craft, even Mastercrafted, by doing an easy quest, getting a drop from a solo mob, or poking around the broker for a cheaper Legendary or Fabled dropped weapon. I generally get my armor from my guild's armorsmith, although in lower tiers, the armor I received from drops and questing was vastly superior to anything he could craft. So there's such a clamor for balance because the imbalance is so pronounced. All of my scholar classes provide me with something. My sage provides my alts with spells, the jeweler the runes essential to my main's success and the alchemist keeps me from having to pay out the nose for poisons to keep up with my DPS on my main. Prior to the armor change, my tailor gave me my leather armor, which I preferred to chain in a primarily soloing playstyle, and she provides me with bags, hex dolls and cloaks with handy effects on them. Those four are actually the ones I end up leveling the fastest. The sage, jeweler and alchemist all have a similar number of recipes for first time pristine bonus and are characters I haven't done too many writs with. My tailor has a wide variety of recipes, although the high resource consumption is a drawback there, and she can generally get 30% to half her level in first time pristine bonuses in her current tier. I turn to writs once pristines are done, to prevent having tons of things to either vendor sell or broker dump, plus help my guild in the process. After those 4, the tedium rises exponentially, although as I said, there is some positive with the carpenter and the woodworker, and even the provisioner who provides food and drink for all my characters. My weaponsmith lies at the bottom of the barrel, and is only leveled out of sheer pigheadedness on my part to have the 8 crafters I've worked up together reach the cap together. She's both the hardest to level, and the one with the least to offer me. In response to your earlier post, Deson, I don't think the city factions are the way to go in terms of putting value back into being a dedicated crafter either. I have seen ideas posted here about having "masters" who will teach you special recipes once you prove yourself to them by putting in faction work as a tradeskiller. I think something like that is a great idea, and they could even introduce the idea of this "master" eventually being able to teach the crafter how to fashion something tailored to one's needs, ie a basic sword with str, agi, int stats could be lessened on str and agi to buff up int. SWG had something very similar with the experimentation system in crafting. Plus it would give crafters a boost because they could provide something no drop could: customization. This would make them competitive (not superior, not inferior, just competitive) with the current vastly superior drops or quest rewards. I just think we need to get away from the idea that level should be the only thing to set dedicated crafters apart from those who are just doing it on a more part-time basis, especially since now crafting level is a large factor in desireable adventuring quests. But the first step to establishing something like that is to bring the leveling imbalance under control and even things out among the classes in terms of leveling. Which they have done, opening the door to other ideas of differentiation for the near or far future.

Ronin SpoilSpot

08-08-2007, 06:05 PM

<cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. Should the levelling speed in general be faster in the start of the career and slower in the end, like the adventurer and tradeskilling until GU37? </blockquote>I think so, yes. Like adventuring, tradeskilling should start out easy and fast, and slowly grow more demanding. The demand here is time and resources. The rate of increase should be low. A doubling between tiers would be far too much. Perhaps a factor somewhere between 1.2 and 1.5 between tiers. This is what we see in both normal recipies and in discoveries. The percentage-wise gain from an even level recipy declines slowly over the tiers, requireing you to do more recipies per level. I actually thought the leveling speed at the end was pretty acceptable for an armorer (five or six normal discoveries per level, and I did rares too), and a bit on the slow side for a carpenter (two discoveries per level). Still, three writs a day would keep the vitality down and progress going steadily up. Writs now do not follow this pattern. The percentage of a level gained from writs actually increase as writ level goes up. At the final tiers, the compound growth really starts to show, with 10+ % of a level gained from a single writ. I think it should be put in line with other xp gains, having a declining, or at least constant, percentage gain as writs rise in level. If for nothing else, then to be consistent. And to make room for the next tier when Kunar k is discovered ... if it has to increase again, it'll be MADNESS! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote>2. Should the speed be equally fast through all tiers? So a level will take, e.g., 1 hour to complete regardless of tier. </blockquote>So, no. Equally fast, in time, could perhaps be something you try to strive for by improving your skill, getting better equipment, using better arts, stripping naked, or whatever else you can think of. It will still need more recipies completed. Liljna wrote:<blockquote>3. Is 25 minutes for a level in tier 7 too fast? </blockquote>Yes, absolutely. Not that I didn't like "getting there" ... but it kindof took the feeling of achievement out of leveling. I'd say it should take at least an hour of concentrated work (would have been ~90 minutes before GU37, and then I'd probably have taken breaks too, instead of doing three levels in a row). Some classes will of course be slower than carpenters, but that's ok <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. /RS

Deson

08-08-2007, 09:40 PM

I'm responding to multiple posts here so I'm paring them down for size. <cite>TaleraRis wrote:</cite><blockquote>dartie wrote: <blockquote>But here's where I differ from you and everyone else who clamors for balance: The fact that they are harder to level should just make them more valuable to the community. </blockquote> The problem with that is that being harder to level probably should make them more valuable, but without marketability, they aren't. My hardest crafter to level in terms of sheer tedium and expenditure has been my weaponsmith, and armorsmith would probably be right up there since they have similar resource consumption and a somewhat more equal marketability when compared to other tradeskilling classes. So there's such a clamor for balance because the imbalance is so pronounced. All of my scholar classes provide me with something. My sage provides my alts with spells, the jeweler the runes essential to my main's success and the alchemist keeps me from having to pay out the nose for poisons to keep up with my DPS on my main. Prior to the armor change, my tailor gave me my leather armor, which I preferred to chain in a primarily soloing playstyle, and she provides me with bags, hex dolls and cloaks with handy effects on them. In response to your earlier post, Deson, I don't think the city factions are the way to go in terms of putting value back into being a dedicated crafter either. I have seen ideas posted here about having "masters" who will teach you special recipes once you prove yourself to them by putting in faction work as a tradeskiller. I think something like that is a great idea, and they could even introduce the idea of this "master" eventually being able to teach the crafter how to fashion something tailored to one's needs, ie a basic sword with str, agi, int stats could be lessened on str and agi to buff up int. SWG had something very similar with the experimentation system in crafting. Plus it would give crafters a boost because they could provide something no drop could: customization. This would make them competitive (not superior, not inferior, just competitive) with the current vastly superior drops or quest rewards. I just think we need to get away from the idea that level should be the only thing to set dedicated crafters apart from those who are just doing it on a more part-time basis, especially since now crafting level is a large factor in desireable adventuring quests. But the first step to establishing something like that is to bring the leveling imbalance under control and even things out among the classes in terms of leveling. Which they have done, opening the door to other ideas of differentiation for the near or far future. </blockquote>I've never been a fan of levels being the focus of dedicated crafting, it's just that right now it's all we have. While I didn't think xp was that bad for any class, I've also supported other more long term fixes for the issues,such as market viability(with potential class revamps/removals) and even the current writ xp,just not this much xp and not attached to faction giving writs. My problems continue to be that it's simply too much xp to be granted at the moment in an otherwise flat environment, I consider it a clever dodge of the issues that created the so-called imbalance and that writs give faction. In a less flat landscape, I'd be indifferent even if they went so far as insta 70. That's the one paragraph version of what I've been trying to convey since first post on this.And yeah, I still say tailors are overpowered. I like the idea of master trainers-even suggested it in various ways myself. Still, I was also looking for city/alliance based special gear like Lucanic armor or Qeynos guard plate. I was also looking at something suggested before of putting ancient teachings scrolls/Advanced recipes behind it. Not so much to break the recipe dependence on adventurer in those areas(don't really mind it much for them) but because there are gaps that show up over time and as the playerbase spreads itself over levels. Having an alternative but typically more expensive/time consuming method of acquisition that's guaranteed is just a little safety net to me for new crafters. Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>Deson, I believe you are thinking the faction gained from simply leveling is going to have a larger impact than it will. I'll use my Tailor as an example. She was level 62 before the exp came to writs. She made all her common recipes for pristines. She also made herself Woven leather for each tier up to T6 as she is only a 53 Warden. She also made a set of cloth for the Conjuror she leveled up with. Other than that she did a comission here and there, but 90+% did writs to fill in the leveling gaps, all at Tunare's Pages. At level 62 she had 17kish faction with them. I tailored for about 45 minutes just after the update and she is now 74% into 63 and has 18K faction exactly. to get to 70 will take her approximately 30 more writs rewarding 4500 status so she will hit the second faction tier. With the new bonus, people will not reach this tier accidently as a by-product of leveling. No one is going to become an ally to tradeskill faction simply through leveling. Not even close. So the dedication you're looking for must still be there. Heck, people probably would not even know they had gained the faction title if all they wished to do was level up. So make any recipe quest rewards require one reach the second level of faction (or even third if you think it would be too easy for all those people that accidently got to the first level through leveling) with the Society. After all, they are only for "dedicated" tradeskillers, so this should not be a problem anyway. </blockquote>You could very well be right. As I've said since I started, I just don't know how it will work out and am willing to wait and see- I just can't see any good coming of it myself. <cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote>I want to ask people in this thread a question and I'm not sure it is easy to answer. But what kind of levelling speed is fair (in general terms) per tier? I am talking pure tradeskilling time here, and I don't include harvesting times. I see the harvesting issues as another issue and hope you will accept that I just ask about the pure tradeskilling time. I am interested in yours views on these three hypothetical questions: 1. Should the levelling speed in general be faster in the start of the career and slower in the end, like the adventurer and tradeskilling until GU37? 2. Should the speed be equally fast through all tiers? So a level will take, e.g., 1 hour to complete regardless of tier. 3. Is 25 minutes for a level in tier 7 too fast? You see, I actually like the new writ xp system. I don't mind some professions getting help with the speed. But and of course there is a but, I simply saw that certain professions and certain tiers went by mind boggling fas (aka 25 minutes for a level). But to me it seems as if this discussion is going black or white, the writ system is either good or bad. What about in between? I think the point I am trying to make is that I think the system is good, but perhaps needs some tweaking. Am I really alone in thinking this? Thanks in advance <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Edit: hopefully some clarification <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Personally level means nothing to me if there are other methods of standing out. Under the circumstances, I'd go for number one with a level off probably around what was t5 xp into number 2. Number 3? Since raws can be bought cheap for most classes, I'd say about 2 hours per level with no vitality with all those things factored in. I simply can't ignore harvest time/investment because it's so integral to the measurement by design. Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Whatever. No, your word contradicts itself directly, and if you're not willing to explain to me where I'm mistaken, then you're admitting I'm right. Yes, I called you a liar. Why? Because what you've said here means you are. You're lying in one place or another. Which is it? 1 level per hour post writ xp is too fast or 2 levels per hour pre-writ xp is normal? </blockquote> Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>He contradicted himself, I called him on it, he started sidestepping with snide patronization. </blockquote> No, it doesn't and no, I didn't. As I stated earlier, there was a context from previous posts and even one from actually knowing tradeskill leveling itself.I should have known though that when posting on the internet, people like to see what they want. Before being called a liar, I would have been happy to detail every aspect of what I was saying- as I have for anyone who's asked me. But since I'm stupid, a liar, and now a snide patronizer with a condescending attitude, I'll say you're absolutely right-and I got nothing for you.

Calris

08-08-2007, 11:11 PM

Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote> Okay, fine. I gave you an opportunity to save face, but right now it looks like you've been caught in a lie and you're taking on a condescending attitude in a pathetic attempt to weasel out of it. I mean, really, how do you think it looks when I ask you to tell me where I'm wrong and all you respond with is "I got nothing for you"? Edit: Fiddled with posting preference. Didn't realize "persona" was my display name. :p </blockquote>Actually, I don't think Deson is the one that needs to save face around here, far from it. His posts make sense, and frankly his reponse 'I've got nothing for you' is rather diplomatic, I know I personally wouldn't be able to be that diplomatic. Now Deson doesn't need me for his defense or anything he can certainly speak for himself, but the thread is getting ugly by your constant attacks. Please just stop Calris, you will do yourself a favor, honestly. </blockquote>He contradicted himself, I called him on it, he started sidestepping with snide patronization. </blockquote>Actually, any patronizing was brought upon yourself. If you want to be treated with respect, treat others with respect. Calling someone a liar is not respectful. </blockquote> Neither is fudging figures to bolster your side of an argument. I still don't buy the leveling speed he claims. This morning, it took me 45 minutes to get from halfway through 37 to 1/3 through 38. This was with vitality, writ xp, pristine bonuses from 38, and a vet reward 55% xp potion. To say that he averaged 2 levels per hour for for months straight to hit the cap at only 2 hours of -actual- TSing per week is completely unbelievable given my own experiences. I would have been more inclined to believe the 6 hours a week for 4 months to reach the cap story if the 6 hours had been all TSing. But only 2 of it TSing and 4 harvesting? I'm sorry, that's just plain insulting to my intelligence to think I'll buy such a ridiculous figure.

Calris

08-08-2007, 11:16 PM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, it doesn't and no, I didn't. As I stated earlier, there was a context from previous posts and even one from actually knowing tradeskill leveling itself.I should have known though that when posting on the internet, people like to see what they want. Before being called a liar, I would have been happy to detail every aspect of what I was saying- as I have for anyone who's asked me. But since I'm stupid, a liar, and now a snide patronizer with a condescending attitude, I'll say you're absolutely right-and I got nothing for you. </blockquote> All I see here is a weak cop-out. I notice that while others have stepped up to tell me I was rude to you, nobody seems to be able to tell me where I supposedly misunderstood you... While it's true that it's "guilty until proven innocent" in the US, I can assure you that if your only defense after the prosecution presents his evidence in a court is "I got nothing for you", you will find yourself behind bars.

Deson

08-08-2007, 11:20 PM

Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, it doesn't and no, I didn't. As I stated earlier, there was a context from previous posts and even one from actually knowing tradeskill leveling itself.I should have known though that when posting on the internet, people like to see what they want. Before being called a liar, I would have been happy to detail every aspect of what I was saying- as I have for anyone who's asked me. But since I'm stupid, a liar, and now a snide patronizer with a condescending attitude, I'll say you're absolutely right-and I got nothing for you. </blockquote> All I see here is a weak cop-out. I notice that while others have stepped up to tell me I was rude to you, nobody seems to be able to tell me where I supposedly misunderstood you... While it's true that it's "guilty until proven innocent" in the US, I can assure you that if your only defense after the prosecution presents his evidence in a court is "I got nothing for you", you will find yourself behind bars. </blockquote>In your post above, if you have all that going and took 45 mins to get that far, you probably are doing something inefficiently. in the mid 60's with all that going I still would have gotten comparably farther. You presented no evidence. All you've done is accuse me of lying from how you interpreted what I posted. Still, as I said, since I'm all those things to you, I got nothing for you. Do yourself a favor and just drop it.

Echgar

08-09-2007, 12:10 AM

Let's simmer down a bit please. You are welcome to disagree with each other, but don't let your disagreement turn to personal attacks, insults, or namecalling. Back on topic please! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Devilsbane

08-09-2007, 12:34 AM

FYI EQ2 Players does split total play time between tradeskill and adventure. If you wish to prove any claims of leveling speed, tell us your character's name and server. <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Edit: You can even use the in-game browser to take a screen shot when you hit tradeskill level 70. Just make sure you show chat window, browser, time clock (mouse over), and tradeskill level bar.

Deson

08-09-2007, 12:47 AM

<cite>Devilsbane wrote:</cite><blockquote>FYI EQ2 Players does split total play time between tradeskill and adventure. If you wish to prove any claims of leveling speed, tell us your character's name and server. <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Edit: You can even use the in-game browser to take a screen shot when you hit tradeskill level 70. Just make sure you show chat window, browser, time clock (mouse over), and tradeskill level bar. </blockquote>I thought about that, even looked at it when I was reviewing my math which is why is said there was a little room for impreciseness. Problem is where it shows levels/day it doesn't include a time. While an informed reader can infer from the dates it was vitality( and then compare the amount of time it took me to grind up to 50k status from when writs went in) the lack of a time stamp and of course, the lack of a harvesting time( rendered useless by how I harvested anyway) adds no value to my claim. Without actual server logs across my chars, you'd have to take my account at its word compared with what you know of trades. It makes proving anything a waste of time to anyone so inclined to disbelieve me in the first place.

Devilsbane

08-09-2007, 01:03 AM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Devilsbane wrote:</cite><blockquote>FYI EQ2 Players does split total play time between tradeskill and adventure. If you wish to prove any claims of leveling speed, tell us your character's name and server. <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Edit: You can even use the in-game browser to take a screen shot when you hit tradeskill level 70. Just make sure you show chat window, browser, time clock (mouse over), and tradeskill level bar. </blockquote>I thought about that, even looked at it when I was reviewing my math which is why is said there was a little room for impreciseness. Problem is where it shows levels/day it doesn't include a time. While an informed reader can infer from the dates it was vitality( and then compare the amount of time it took me to grind up to 50k status from when writs went in) the lack of a time stamp and of course, the lack of a harvesting time( rendered useless by how I harvested anyway) adds no value to my claim. Without actual server logs across my chars, you'd have to take my account at its word compared with what you know of trades. It makes proving anything a waste of time to anyone so inclined to disbelieve me in the first place. </blockquote>Was not even talking about the level date info. I am talking about the info on the first page of the character sheet next to the bio.Time Played:Adventure Time Played:Tradeskilling Time Played:Total:Last Time Played:

Deson

08-09-2007, 01:18 AM

<cite>Devilsbane wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Devilsbane wrote:</cite><blockquote>FYI EQ2 Players does split total play time between tradeskill and adventure. If you wish to prove any claims of leveling speed, tell us your character's name and server. <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Edit: You can even use the in-game browser to take a screen shot when you hit tradeskill level 70. Just make sure you show chat window, browser, time clock (mouse over), and tradeskill level bar. </blockquote>I thought about that, even looked at it when I was reviewing my math which is why is said there was a little room for impreciseness. Problem is where it shows levels/day it doesn't include a time. While an informed reader can infer from the dates it was vitality( and then compare the amount of time it took me to grind up to 50k status from when writs went in) the lack of a time stamp and of course, the lack of a harvesting time( rendered useless by how I harvested anyway) adds no value to my claim. Without actual server logs across my chars, you'd have to take my account at its word compared with what you know of trades. It makes proving anything a waste of time to anyone so inclined to disbelieve me in the first place. </blockquote>Was not even talking about the level date info. I am talking about the info on the first page of the character sheet next to the bio.Time Played:Adventure Time Played:Tradeskilling Time Played:Total:Last Time Played:</blockquote>Yeah, I figured you were talking about that too. I touched on it but didn't elaborate;it's why I said the bolded. That doesn't help much either because my crafters aren't idle. Right now they have about 50-65hours (2 days 19 hours was the highest I remember) depending on the char. While that is tight enough to help, again, if someone isn't inclined to believe me, it's too much room to even bother.

Devilsbane

08-09-2007, 01:37 AM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Devilsbane wrote:</cite><blockquote>Was not even talking about the level date info. I am talking about the info on the first page of the character sheet next to the bio.Time Played:Adventure Time Played:Tradeskilling Time Played:Total:Last Time Played:</blockquote>Yeah, I figured you were talking about that too. I touched on it but didn't elaborate;it's why I said the bolded. That doesn't help much either because my crafters aren't idle. Right now they have about 50-65hours (2 days 19 hours was the highest I remember) depending on the char. While that is tight enough to help, again, if someone isn't inclined to believe me, it's too much room to even bother. </blockquote>Raphaela made level 41 provisioner, transmuting skill level 226, and resp to a scholar level 14 in 21 hours 4 mins. Although, I do go by the Ronald Reagan rule/quote "<a href="http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/r/ronaldreag147717.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Trust, but verify</a>". Would you give out one of your character's name and the server please?

FoxRiverRanger

08-09-2007, 02:29 AM

<cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote>I want to ask people in this thread a question and I'm not sure it is easy to answer. But what kind of levelling speed is fair (in general terms) per tier? I am talking pure tradeskilling time here, and I don't include harvesting times. I see the harvesting issues as another issue and hope you will accept that I just ask about the pure tradeskilling time. I am interested in yours views on these three hypothetical questions: 1. Should the levelling speed in general be faster in the start of the career and slower in the end, like the adventurer and tradeskilling until GU37?I believe that each crafting level should require an increase in the commitment required to progress. 2. Should the speed be equally fast through all tiers? So a level will take, e.g., 1 hour to complete regardless of tier.No, again an increase in the commitment to progress. 3. Is 25 minutes for a level in tier 7 too fast? Yes. Unless significant changes are made to the crafting game there is only level to differentiate a crafter. Once level 80 is obtained, what is left to do? With reports of leveling speed in T7 after the addition of tradeskill writ XP, leveling my main should only take one or two days (assuming enough raw materials are available on the broker). After that it will just be waiting for the advanced books to appear on the broker, and grinding out goods to sell for the next year. I craft because I enjoy playing a crafter: I enjoy leveling, gaining faction (which is maxed), gaining status, and stocking my store. I accept that to do all these things I need grind out combines like an adventurer grinds out kills (it is easy to confirm that most level 70 adventurers have many more kills than level 70 crafters have items crafted by looking at leaderboard rankings). Hopefully they will add true crafting content that allows a player to differentiate their character from the masses, but as of now there is only level.You see, I actually like the new writ xp system. I don't mind some professions getting help with the speed. But and of course there is a but, I simply saw that certain professions and certain tiers went by mind boggling fas (aka 25 minutes for a level). But to me it seems as if this discussion is going black or white, the writ system is either good or bad. What about in between? I agree that adding XP to writs was a good idea, and would have been a great replacement for pristine discovery. If they had removed the broken, imbalanced system that discovery was, it would be easy to tune writ XP and thus leveling speed. As it is they are stuck matching the leveling speed of sages, instead of pulling the high and low ends of the bell curve towards the middle. I think the point I am trying to make is that I think the system is good, but perhaps needs some tweaking. Am I really alone in thinking this?Thanks in advance <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Edit: hopefully some clarification <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>I too think the crafting system is good, it is the reason I play the game. However, I see nothing good coming from this increase in ease of leveling a character's tradeskill.I enjoy being a dedicated crafter bringing desirable goods to the market, offering my services for hire, and the performing the activities that support my occupation. I happily spend hours every week harvesting, because I want to bring my goods to market at a better price than my competitors (and to kill a few things for whatever quests I find around my harvesting areas). I spend time every day checking for low priced raws and rares to supplement what I harvest. I restock my broker daily, and check the prices of competitors. I know the names, playtimes, and pricing habits of most major competitors on the broker. Parsing my store log shows I have interacted with over 4,000 unique characters via the broker, plus countless others by commission or trade (and I have no idea from how many others I have purchased goods). If you think to call me a price gouger, then you have never competed to sell woodworker crafted items on The Bazaar.As implemented the tradeskill writ XP bonus is a godsend to those that want complete independence, or only to deal with those few players of their guild, and then to get back to 'the real game of adventuring'. If leveling a full set of crafters becomes a trivial activity that every player can accomplish, with minimal interruption of their adventuring, then the dedicated crafter play style option is destroyed. Without the need to make a commitment to leveling a crafter, there will be no customers left as everyone is self sufficient. Without anything other than level to differentiate crafters, this change goes beyond enhancing the game; by trivializing leveling it only stands to reduce player interaction. As designed, the game allows players to choose to commit their play time to pursuing different goals: harvesting, crafting, adventuring, or raiding. The broker, commissions, and trading allow players to interact and exchange the fruits of their labor with each other. By interacting with others, a player need not do everything; instead they can specialize in those aspects of the game they enjoy. Those changes that enhance each of these aspects of the game, without trivializing the commitment required to participate in them, I find good. When a change is made solely to pander to those that feel entitled to the full benefits that others earned, without making a comparable commitment; then I think the change is taking away from the game: just as adding Fabled loot tables to solo rewards would do significant damage to raiding, so to will over fast leveling damage crafting as a primary activity. Being independent in a game designed to encourage player interaction should require a significant commitment of time, not be an entitlement of every casual player.

Mildavyn

08-09-2007, 03:14 AM

Ashrams@Najena wrote: <blockquote>When you look at a glass you see it half empty don't you. </blockquote>When I look at a glass, i think it's half full... but it wouldn't surprise me if it was half full of Cianide... am I a Pessimist.

Deson

08-09-2007, 10:34 AM

<cite>FoxRiverRanger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Liljna wrote:</cite><blockquote>I want to ask people in this thread a question and I'm not sure it is easy to answer. But what kind of levelling speed is fair (in general terms) per tier? I am talking pure tradeskilling time here, and I don't include harvesting times. I see the harvesting issues as another issue and hope you will accept that I just ask about the pure tradeskilling time. I am interested in yours views on these three hypothetical questions: 1. Should the levelling speed in general be faster in the start of the career and slower in the end, like the adventurer and tradeskilling until GU37?I believe that each crafting level should require an increase in the commitment required to progress. 2. Should the speed be equally fast through all tiers? So a level will take, e.g., 1 hour to complete regardless of tier.No, again an increase in the commitment to progress. 3. Is 25 minutes for a level in tier 7 too fast? Yes. Unless significant changes are made to the crafting game there is only level to differentiate a crafter. Once level 80 is obtained, what is left to do? With reports of leveling speed in T7 after the addition of tradeskill writ XP, leveling my main should only take one or two days (assuming enough raw materials are available on the broker). After that it will just be waiting for the advanced books to appear on the broker, and grinding out goods to sell for the next year. I craft because I enjoy playing a crafter: I enjoy leveling, gaining faction (which is maxed), gaining status, and stocking my store. I accept that to do all these things I need grind out combines like an adventurer grinds out kills (it is easy to confirm that most level 70 adventurers have many more kills than level 70 crafters have items crafted by looking at leaderboard rankings). Hopefully they will add true crafting content that allows a player to differentiate their character from the masses, but as of now there is only level.You see, I actually like the new writ xp system. I don't mind some professions getting help with the speed. But and of course there is a but, I simply saw that certain professions and certain tiers went by mind boggling fas (aka 25 minutes for a level). But to me it seems as if this discussion is going black or white, the writ system is either good or bad. What about in between? I agree that adding XP to writs was a good idea, and would have been a great replacement for pristine discovery. If they had removed the broken, imbalanced system that discovery was, it would be easy to tune writ XP and thus leveling speed. As it is they are stuck matching the leveling speed of sages, instead of pulling the high and low ends of the bell curve towards the middle. I think the point I am trying to make is that I think the system is good, but perhaps needs some tweaking. Am I really alone in thinking this?Thanks in advance <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Edit: hopefully some clarification <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>I too think the crafting system is good, it is the reason I play the game. However, I see nothing good coming from this increase in ease of leveling a character's tradeskill.I enjoy being a dedicated crafter bringing desirable goods to the market, offering my services for hire, and the performing the activities that support my occupation. I happily spend hours every week harvesting, because I want to bring my goods to market at a better price than my competitors (and to kill a few things for whatever quests I find around my harvesting areas). I spend time every day checking for low priced raws and rares to supplement what I harvest. I restock my broker daily, and check the prices of competitors. I know the names, playtimes, and pricing habits of most major competitors on the broker. Parsing my store log shows I have interacted with over 4,000 unique characters via the broker, plus countless others by commission or trade (and I have no idea from how many others I have purchased goods). If you think to call me a price gouger, then you have never competed to sell woodworker crafted items on The Bazaar.As implemented the tradeskill writ XP bonus is a godsend to those that want complete independence, or only to deal with those few players of their guild, and then to get back to 'the real game of adventuring'. If leveling a full set of crafters becomes a trivial activity that every player can accomplish, with minimal interruption of their adventuring, then the dedicated crafter play style option is destroyed. Without the need to make a commitment to leveling a crafter, there will be no customers left as everyone is self sufficient. Without anything other than level to differentiate crafters, this change goes beyond enhancing the game; by trivializing leveling it only stands to reduce player interaction. As designed, the game allows players to choose to commit their play time to pursuing different goals: harvesting, crafting, adventuring, or raiding. The broker, commissions, and trading allow players to interact and exchange the fruits of their labor with each other. By interacting with others, a player need not do everything; instead they can specialize in those aspects of the game they enjoy. Those changes that enhance each of these aspects of the game, without trivializing the commitment required to participate in them, I find good. When a change is made solely to pander to those that feel entitled to the full benefits that others earned, without making a comparable commitment; then I think the change is taking away from the game: just as adding Fabled loot tables to solo rewards would do significant damage to raiding, so to will over fast leveling damage crafting as a primary activity. Being independent in a game designed to encourage player interaction should require a significant commitment of time, not be an entitlement of every casual player.</blockquote>Very well stated. I'm not sure that was the intent but it seems to be the result. How would you feel if there were other outlets?

Calthine

08-09-2007, 12:31 PM

<cite>Devilsbane wrote:</cite><blockquote>Raphaela made level 41 provisioner, transmuting skill level 226, and resp to a scholar level 14 in 21 hours 4 mins. Although, I do go by the Ronald Reagan rule/quote "<a href="http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/r/ronaldreag147717.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Trust, but verify</a>". Would you give out one of your character's name and the server please? </blockquote> What are we taling about? I glazed over with all the huge nested quotes. Leveling time? My 69 Sage, who never harvests her own stuff and only walks from the banker to the mailbox to Wayfarerers: <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=303247107" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=303247107</a> <div align="right">Adventure Time Played: 4 days 2 hours 58 minutes <div align="right">Tradeskilling Time Played: 1 days 14 hours 50 minutes Total:</div> 5 days 17 hours 49 minutes Last Time Played:</div> July 26, 2007

zaneluke

08-10-2007, 08:06 AM

I think this is another great change. Less time crafting = more time to adventure. In order for the game to draw in more players they have to get rid of some of the grind. Im sorry, but in this day and age the people who can dump 4-5 hours a day into a game are not the majority. The game needs to move towards a more casual friendly gameplay that will attract more people and benifit the hardcore person. Just my opinion.

FoxRiverRanger

08-10-2007, 11:41 AM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>FoxRiverRanger wrote:</cite><blockquote><Scroll up to see quote></blockquote>Very well stated. I'm not sure that was the intent but it seems to be the result. How would you feel if there were other outlets? </blockquote>If a crafter had to make a choice between (1) writs that accelerate leveling and only having access to handcrafted recipes or (2) writs/quests that grant access to Mastercrafted recipes without speeding leveling; that would be a fair choice. However, the handcrafted recipes contain the consumable and commodity items that are the foundation of viability for many crafting classes (and are somthing I feel should be developed for all classes). Given that, I would still expect leveling to require more of a commitment than what the current writ XP bonus provides. Tuning leveling speed to the middle would be better than tuning it to the most ‘overpowered' class in the game. (For additional ability to distinguish a crafter with rare recipes, I would rather see content for acquiring Legendary and particularly Fabled recipes built into end-game content that a crafter would pursue after leveling to cap, or around level n8).

Terron

08-10-2007, 12:28 PM

<cite>zaneluke wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think this is another great change. Less time crafting = more time to adventure. In order for the game to draw in more players they have to get rid of some of the grind. Im sorry, but in this day and age the people who can dump 4-5 hours a day into a game are not the majority. The game needs to move towards a more casual friendly gameplay that will attract more people and benifit the hardcore person. Just my opinion. </blockquote>You seem to regard crafting as something that gets in the way of what you really want to do - adventure. You do not need to craft. You can spend all you time adventuring, and always could. Less time crafting does not mean more time to adventure. Crafting should be something that is enjoyable in itself and which is done by people who enjoy it, and then can sell the products to those who do not. Changing crafting to suit those who regard it as a necessary but unpleasant overhead that should be minimized is not a good idea. Crafting should not be a grind, just as adventuring at all levels should not be a grind. Both should be fun in their own right, in their different ways. Crafting could do with being made more challenging to make it more fun.

Deson

08-11-2007, 05:07 AM

<cite>Terron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>zaneluke wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think this is another great change. Less time crafting = more time to adventure. In order for the game to draw in more players they have to get rid of some of the grind. Im sorry, but in this day and age the people who can dump 4-5 hours a day into a game are not the majority. The game needs to move towards a more casual friendly gameplay that will attract more people and benifit the hardcore person. Just my opinion. </blockquote>You seem to regard crafting as something that gets in the way of what you really want to do - adventure. You do not need to craft. You can spend all you time adventuring, and always could. Less time crafting does not mean more time to adventure. Crafting should be something that is enjoyable in itself and which is done by people who enjoy it, and then can sell the products to those who do not. Changing crafting to suit those who regard it as a necessary but unpleasant overhead that should be minimized is not a good idea. Crafting should not be a grind, just as adventuring at all levels should not be a grind. Both should be fun in their own right, in their different ways. Crafting could do with being made more challenging to make it more fun. </blockquote>What Terron said. <cite>FoxRiverRanger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>FoxRiverRanger wrote:</cite><blockquote><Scroll up to see quote></blockquote>Very well stated. I'm not sure that was the intent but it seems to be the result. How would you feel if there were other outlets? </blockquote>If a crafter had to make a choice between (1) writs that accelerate leveling and only having access to handcrafted recipes or (2) writs/quests that grant access to Mastercrafted recipes without speeding leveling; that would be a fair choice. However, the handcrafted recipes contain the consumable and commodity items that are the foundation of viability for many crafting classes (and are somthing I feel should be developed for all classes). Given that, I would still expect leveling to require more of a commitment than what the current writ XP bonus provides. Tuning leveling speed to the middle would be better than tuning it to the most ‘overpowered' class in the game. (For additional ability to distinguish a crafter with rare recipes, I would rather see content for acquiring Legendary and particularly Fabled recipes built into end-game content that a crafter would pursue after leveling to cap, or around level n<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. </blockquote>I can agree with most of that. I don't like the emphasis on leveling though. To me, if they are going to put in recipes for legendary/fabled, it should exist at all levels. Ideally, except maybe t1-2, I'd like crafting to be a flat landscape in the respect of decent recipes. You shouldn't have to wait until cap or near cap to get cool stuff. That's why I praised the DFC recipes despite the flaws I see in the design. Content like that gives rewards to all players of all persuasions, from level lockers to people who blow through levels and to crafters steadily climbing the ladder and those at the cap looking for more. Unlike adventuring, your recipes are always useful no matter the level and low/mid-level crafters compete near equally in the tiers they have access to. Considering its customer service nature, I don't see crafting as having an endgame, only a cap.

Devilsbane

08-11-2007, 06:08 AM

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>What are we taling about? I glazed over with all the huge nested quotes. Leveling time? My 69 Sage, who never harvests her own stuff and only walks from the banker to the mailbox to Wayfarerers: <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=303247107" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=303247107</a> <div align="right">Adventure Time Played: 4 days 2 hours 58 minutes <div align="right">Tradeskilling Time Played: 1 days 14 hours 50 minutes Total:</div>5 days 17 hours 49 minutes Last Time Played:</div>July 26, 2007 </blockquote> I see about 50 of those levels were before combines were taken away. <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Looks like I may be able to make Level 70 Sage in about the same total time. That should happen before RoK in release hopefully. If I can tear myself away from harvesting rares long enough. Seems the other thread about harvesting is correct. I am getting about 10+ rares an hour every tier!

Deson

08-11-2007, 06:57 AM

<cite>Devilsbane wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>What are we taling about? I glazed over with all the huge nested quotes. Leveling time? My 69 Sage, who never harvests her own stuff and only walks from the banker to the mailbox to Wayfarerers: <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=303247107" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=303247107</a> <div align="right">Adventure Time Played: 4 days 2 hours 58 minutes <div align="right">Tradeskilling Time Played: 1 days 14 hours 50 minutes Total:</div>5 days 17 hours 49 minutes Last Time Played:</div>July 26, 2007 </blockquote> I see about 50 of those levels were before combines were taken away. <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Looks like I may be able to make Level 70 Sage in about the same total time. That should happen before RoK in release hopefully. If I can tear myself away from harvesting rares long enough. Seems the other thread about harvesting is correct. I am getting about 10+ rares an hour every tier! </blockquote>Yeah, those subs must have taken some time to make.Noticing the WW rank of your sage made me want to check Players for TS class populations.Checking my own chars class rankings, Provi and Sage seem to be the most popular classes with everyone else taking a steep drop in numbers afterward, but Players doesn't seem to have a search by TS class feature and the old census site was out of date for a very long time so I didn't bother checking it.

Liyle

08-11-2007, 10:47 AM

The point I've come around to (kicking and screaming) is that the faster you get to 70 the better. Unlike adventuring there really is no "journey" in crafting. You don't level out of interesting content or the ability to loot the good stuff. There is no advantage to being 20 over being 70. Might as well get there. If you are interested in selling stuff, bag, provisions and box/crate usage is not tied to level so there again... level 70 is where you want to be. At the risk of sounding silly, there has certainly never been a call for TS mentoring... With the current boost, I find the levels coming along at an acceptable clip. I don't think that anyone who hates tradeskilling is going to take it up just for the bonus but those who had gotten discouraged might pick it up again. I've noticed that a few folks in my guild who had let their crafting lapse have started in again and our guild level has started climbing as well.... we've been around since release but are so small it's been a slow haul. Another downside of being in a small guild is that I have the only t7 Alchemist, Tailor, Jeweler and Woodworker. Two of them I would dearly love to reroll but they are stuck until someone else comes up to take in the slack. I've been actively touting the new xp to entice the ones who have made it to t6 to take advantage of the WO's, and they have been. Another thing I am hoping is that the xp bonus will act as a carrot to lure people away from broker dumping. There are a lot of advantages to WO's now: hardly any inventory space is needed for products, fuel is reimbursed at each step, extra coin is given on completion, SP's are awarded for self, guild and crafting faction, and now extra TS xp. I don't mean the problem has gone away. Just yesterday I thought I might put one of the cool new furniture items on the broker but someone (who was not selling from a display container) had already cranked out 35 and dumped them for fuel cost. Sigh.

Calthine

08-11-2007, 02:08 PM

<cite>Liyle wrote:</cite><blockquote> There is no advantage to being 20 over being 70. </blockquote> Domino thinks the upcoming changes to the TS Arts will help with that... /goes back to working on the mechanics panel write up.

Snowdonia

08-12-2007, 06:02 AM

I've gotta chime in that I LOVE the new XP rewards on writs myself. My Armorer, Carpenter, and Provisioner are MUCH more fun to level now that I'm not tearing through materials grinding on hundreds of combines to get a level. I hadn't touched my Carpenter since she hit 40s ages back but with the new recipes and the XP reward, she's actually seeing some action for a change and I'm enjoying her again. It's too bad it's being seen as trivializing crafting. I know for myself I have no complaints!

Methriln

08-12-2007, 06:09 AM

well since i saw this thread might as well throw in my thx as well for ts writ xp <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Went from 46-70 in 3 days. Made lvling up so much easier plus i got the envoy title which is kool<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Deson

08-12-2007, 06:16 AM

<cite>Methriln wrote:</cite><blockquote>well since i saw this thread might as well throw in my thx as well for ts writ xp <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Went from 46-70 in 3 days. Made lvling up so much easier plus i got the envoy title which is kool<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>That sounds fast even for whats reported already. How many hours was that?Use potions or anything?

Tokam

08-12-2007, 08:28 AM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Methriln wrote:</cite><blockquote>well since i saw this thread might as well throw in my thx as well for ts writ xp <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Went from 46-70 in 3 days. Made lvling up so much easier plus i got the envoy title which is kool<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>That sounds fast even for whats reported already. How many hours was that?Use potions or anything? </blockquote> Nah that looks perfectly reasonable to me, ive done similar. Its at the point for me where t5 is the slowest tier to level through. Sounds wierd but there ya go.

Deson

08-12-2007, 08:39 AM

<cite>Tokamak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Methriln wrote:</cite><blockquote>well since i saw this thread might as well throw in my thx as well for ts writ xp <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Went from 46-70 in 3 days. Made lvling up so much easier plus i got the envoy title which is kool<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>That sounds fast even for whats reported already. How many hours was that?Use potions or anything? </blockquote> Nah that looks perfectly reasonable to me, ive done similar. Its at the point for me where t5 is the slowest tier to level through. Sounds wierd but there ya go.</blockquote>It sounds reasonable for someone with a large playtime. I assume most players to have 4 hours a day at max(same as the last avg US tv time I remember). If it was over long playtimes then ok, if not, I'm curious to what all was going.

Liyle

08-12-2007, 12:35 PM

Depends on the class too. My Jeweler is leveling much faster than my Carpenter but she also hit the vitality wall pretty fast. I understand that vitality isn't docked when you get xp from WO's, so her combination of discos plus 2 WO's per level might have cost more in vitality than it needed to. Not sure. It wouldn't be hard to imagine 5 or 6 hours play time for a working person if they start at around 6 or 7pm and close up shop at midnight. People who watch the 6 o'clock news, primetime and the Daily Show/Colbert Report afterwards put in about that much TV a night. However, a student on summer vacation could easily top that...

Binkle

08-12-2007, 03:14 PM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tokamak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Methriln wrote:</cite><blockquote>well since i saw this thread might as well throw in my thx as well for ts writ xp <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Went from 46-70 in 3 days. Made lvling up so much easier plus i got the envoy title which is kool<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>That sounds fast even for whats reported already. How many hours was that?Use potions or anything? </blockquote> Nah that looks perfectly reasonable to me, ive done similar. Its at the point for me where t5 is the slowest tier to level through. Sounds wierd but there ya go.</blockquote>It sounds reasonable for someone with a large playtime. I assume most players to have 4 hours a day at max(same as the last avg US tv time I remember). If it was over long playtimes then ok, if not, I'm curious to what all was going. </blockquote>You have been making this same point over the entire course of the thread. If you don't have anything else to add, then please move on to something else.

Deson

08-12-2007, 06:43 PM

<cite>Binkle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tokamak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Methriln wrote:</cite><blockquote>well since i saw this thread might as well throw in my thx as well for ts writ xp <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Went from 46-70 in 3 days. Made lvling up so much easier plus i got the envoy title which is kool<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>That sounds fast even for whats reported already. How many hours was that?Use potions or anything? </blockquote> Nah that looks perfectly reasonable to me, ive done similar. Its at the point for me where t5 is the slowest tier to level through. Sounds wierd but there ya go.</blockquote>It sounds reasonable for someone with a large playtime. I assume most players to have 4 hours a day at max(same as the last avg US tv time I remember). If it was over long playtimes then ok, if not, I'm curious to what all was going. </blockquote>You have been making this same point over the entire course of the thread. If you don't have anything else to add, then please move on to something else. </blockquote>I'm asking for detail. My arguments were already made, now it's only curiosity. If you read the statement, you'll see that I already said that the speed sounds fine under current conditions for someone with a large playtime but someone with smaller I'm wondering what techniques were used. There is no actual argument in the statement made and hasn't been from me for some days now. Indeed even most of my repeated arguments after the first couple days were in response to others for clarity of view and not aimless rehash. Of course, feel free to dispute that as you wish.

baddog

08-12-2007, 07:25 PM

after losing 30+ gold in fuel on 2 failed writs , you can keep them

Deson

08-12-2007, 07:29 PM

<cite>baddog wrote:</cite><blockquote>after losing 30+ gold in fuel on 2 failed writs , you can keep them </blockquote>Details? It's incredibly hard to lose money on writs.

Calthine

08-12-2007, 08:01 PM

Gotta be buying all your raws if you're losing more than fuel, especially since each step reimburses you for fuel. May I recommend this guide? <a href="http://eq2flames.com/showthread.php?t=3670" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Not a Moment to Lose! A Guide for Power-Mad Speed-Crafters</a>

baddog

08-12-2007, 09:07 PM

10x fuel x 5 combines x 2 writs = stack of T7 fuel = 34.56 g bad run of rng with multiple critical failures , ran out of time twice . It eats the product as you make it and resets the writ on failure took 16 minutes to lose 34g and the raws... its been awhile, but I though they used to be in your inventory on failure, and you could vendor them ?

pointytail

08-12-2007, 10:31 PM

<cite>baddog wrote:</cite><blockquote>10x fuel x 5 combines x 2 writs = stack of T7 fuel = 34.56 g bad run of rng with multiple critical failures , ran out of time twice . It eats the product as you make it and resets the writ on failure took 16 minutes to lose 34g and the raws... its been awhile, but I though they used to be in your inventory on failure, and you could vendor them ? </blockquote> 6 combines per Rush Order and you get your fuel money back as you successfully complete each step (Pristine combines) of the writ while keeping the product. Not crafting a pristine item has it end up in your inventory right? You don't lose any money, as far as I figure, but you do lose materials for attempting the writ.

Calthine

08-12-2007, 10:44 PM

<cite>baddog wrote:</cite><blockquote> its been awhile, but I though they used to be in your inventory on failure, and you could vendor them ? </blockquote> No, not since this writ system was implemented.

Deson

08-12-2007, 10:58 PM

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>baddog wrote:</cite><blockquote> its been awhile, but I though they used to be in your inventory on failure, and you could vendor them ? </blockquote> No, not since this writ system was implemented. </blockquote> Since the current writ system has been in and as of about 2-3weeks ago, non-pristine results went into my inventory(I get lazy when it's not for someone) and I've either brokered the result for profit or vendored it back for fuel.Unless something has changed recently,the only ways I know of to lose fuel costs are to cancel before crude level or,be a woodworker/alchemist/provisioner making a consumable. Under the system Domino is planning out now though, it will indeed be possible to lose money in other ways since you'll only get the product on pristine.

Domino

08-13-2007, 02:15 AM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote> Since the current writ system has been in and as of about 2-3weeks ago, non-pristine results went into my inventory(I get lazy when it's not for someone) and I've either brokered the result for profit or vendored it back for fuel.Unless something has changed recently,the only ways I know of to lose fuel costs are to cancel before crude level or,be a woodworker/alchemist/provisioner making a consumable. Under the system Domino is planning out now though, it will indeed be possible to lose money in other ways since you'll only get the product on pristine. </blockquote>You'll still get your fuel cost back though, exactly as you do now, since you just get the fuel back directly. So I don't think you'd be any more likely to lose any money than you are now, unless I'm missing something (which is quite possible as it's Sunday night and I just got back from dinner). It's also worth noting that there are writs available that don't have a time limit, which you certainly can't lose money doing. So, if you don't feel like risking your coin, simply take a non-rush work order. They give the same amount of tradeskill XP bonus on completion as the timed ones, and there's no monetary risk at all. The rush orders are supposed to have an element of risk - if they were 100% guaranteed to succeed, they wouldn't be much fun or challenge now would they? And having the two different options would be pointless. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Deson

08-13-2007, 02:20 AM

My mistake, I was thinking fuel was lost in both handcrafted and mastercrafted for some reason. It's not live yet so I'm still jumbling some details, thanks for the clarity.

Methriln

08-13-2007, 03:24 AM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Methriln wrote:</cite><blockquote>well since i saw this thread might as well throw in my thx as well for ts writ xp <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Went from 46-70 in 3 days. Made lvling up so much easier plus i got the envoy title which is kool<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>That sounds fast even for whats reported already. How many hours was that?Use potions or anything? </blockquote>was about 15 ish or so hrs of crafting no potions or vit. Was off from work and didn't raid till late at night so grinded all morning edit-forgot to say my ts class which is alchy prob why it went so fast lotta recipes.

Deson

08-13-2007, 04:39 AM

<cite>Methriln wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Methriln wrote:</cite><blockquote>well since i saw this thread might as well throw in my thx as well for ts writ xp <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Went from 46-70 in 3 days. Made lvling up so much easier plus i got the envoy title which is kool<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>That sounds fast even for whats reported already. How many hours was that?Use potions or anything? </blockquote>was about 15 ish or so hrs of crafting no potions or vit. Was off from work and didn't raid till late at night so grinded all morning edit-forgot to say my ts class which is alchy prob why it went so fast lotta recipes. </blockquote>Ah, yeah, that all makes sense. I was trying to wrap my brain around an average person at about a craft a minute and taking all the normal human breaks, doing it in 12 hours or less. Thanks for the details.

KerowynnKaotic

08-13-2007, 05:32 AM

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>*snipped* You'll still get your fuel cost back though, exactly as you do now, since you just get the fuel back directly. So I don't think you'd be any more likely to lose any money than you are now, unless I'm missing something (which is quite possible as it's Sunday night and I just got back from dinner). It's also worth noting that there are writs available that don't have a time limit, which you certainly can't lose money doing. So, if you don't feel like risking your coin, simply take a non-rush work order. They give the same amount of tradeskill XP bonus on completion as the timed ones, and there's no monetary risk at all. The rush orders are supposed to have an element of risk - if they were 100% guaranteed to succeed, they wouldn't be much fun or challenge now would they? And having the two different options would be pointless. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> The only Rush Writ you can completely lose out on a 100% worth are those few writs that require (6) of (1) item type. Carpenter & Woodworker X0 writs come to mind .. Those you will lose your fuel on even if you get pristine on all but your final; since it's not broken up to give you even a partial pay-out. *shrug* But as you say .. Rush Writs carry the potential for risk .. you either win or you lose.

Calthine

08-13-2007, 12:25 PM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>baddog wrote:</cite><blockquote> its been awhile, but I though they used to be in your inventory on failure, and you could vendor them ? </blockquote> No, not since this writ system was implemented. </blockquote> Since the current writ system has been in and as of about 2-3weeks ago, non-pristine results went into my inventory(I get lazy when it's not for someone) and I've either brokered the result for profit or vendored it back for fuel.Unless something has changed recently,the only ways I know of to lose fuel costs are to cancel before crude level or,be a woodworker/alchemist/provisioner making a consumable. Under the system Domino is planning out now though, it will indeed be possible to lose money in other ways since you'll only get the product on pristine. </blockquote> Ah - I guess I never made a non-pristine during a writ.

Illmarr

08-13-2007, 01:18 PM

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>baddog wrote:</cite><blockquote> its been awhile, but I though they used to be in your inventory on failure, and you could vendor them ? </blockquote> No, not since this writ system was implemented. </blockquote> Since the current writ system has been in and as of about 2-3weeks ago, non-pristine results went into my inventory(I get lazy when it's not for someone) and I've either brokered the result for profit or vendored it back for fuel.Unless something has changed recently,the only ways I know of to lose fuel costs are to cancel before crude level or,be a woodworker/alchemist/provisioner making a consumable. Under the system Domino is planning out now though, it will indeed be possible to lose money in other ways since you'll only get the product on pristine. </blockquote> Ah - I guess I never made a non-pristine during a writ. </blockquote>I do it now and then when I turn around to watch an important at bat on TV. That's why they give us 8 minutes instead of 6 to finish, isn't it? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But yeah,I just sell it back for the fuel cost. No harm no foul

kelesia

08-13-2007, 02:45 PM

I have to say I hate the non-rush orders. 'Please make me twice as much stuff for less status and less faction' I almost always take the non-timed ones because I have lots of distracting things going on around me. I know the rushed ones are supposed to be a bit of a risk, but the non-timed ones are painful. Is there any way to a. up the status and faction to match the rush or b. cut down the number of things to be made? At least by a little bit? maybe require 4 more instead of 6 more? It just seems like a double penalty against those who can't do timed write for whatever reason. btw, the extra 4% on completing the writ was wonderful <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

baddog

08-13-2007, 11:58 PM

<cite>KerowynnKaotic wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>*snipped* You'll still get your fuel cost back though, exactly as you do now, since you just get the fuel back directly. So I don't think you'd be any more likely to lose any money than you are now, unless I'm missing something (which is quite possible as it's Sunday night and I just got back from dinner). It's also worth noting that there are writs available that don't have a time limit, which you certainly can't lose money doing. So, if you don't feel like risking your coin, simply take a non-rush work order. They give the same amount of tradeskill XP bonus on completion as the timed ones, and there's no monetary risk at all. The rush orders are supposed to have an element of risk - if they were 100% guaranteed to succeed, they wouldn't be much fun or challenge now would they? And having the two different options would be pointless. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> The only Rush Writ you can completely lose out on a 100% worth are those few writs that require (6) of (1) item type. Carpenter & Woodworker X0 writs come to mind .. Those you will lose your fuel on even if you get pristine on all but your final; since it's not broken up to give you even a partial pay-out. *shrug* But as you say .. Rush Writs carry the potential for risk .. you either win or you lose. </blockquote>yes, this was with my woodworker. you also lose everything if you don't finish in time. it was a rude awakening, since it didn't used to be this way . are all the tradeskills blessed with the new 'risk' ?

Deson

08-14-2007, 12:18 AM

<cite>baddog wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>KerowynnKaotic wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>*snipped* You'll still get your fuel cost back though, exactly as you do now, since you just get the fuel back directly. So I don't think you'd be any more likely to lose any money than you are now, unless I'm missing something (which is quite possible as it's Sunday night and I just got back from dinner). It's also worth noting that there are writs available that don't have a time limit, which you certainly can't lose money doing. So, if you don't feel like risking your coin, simply take a non-rush work order. They give the same amount of tradeskill XP bonus on completion as the timed ones, and there's no monetary risk at all. The rush orders are supposed to have an element of risk - if they were 100% guaranteed to succeed, they wouldn't be much fun or challenge now would they? And having the two different options would be pointless. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> The only Rush Writ you can completely lose out on a 100% worth are those few writs that require (6) of (1) item type. Carpenter & Woodworker X0 writs come to mind .. Those you will lose your fuel on even if you get pristine on all but your final; since it's not broken up to give you even a partial pay-out. *shrug* But as you say .. Rush Writs carry the potential for risk .. you either win or you lose. </blockquote>yes, this was with my woodworker. you also lose everything if you don't finish in time. it was a rude awakening, since it didn't used to be this way . are all the tradeskills blessed with the new 'risk' ? </blockquote>Nope, always been there. I take it you leveled recently to that new set of writs? I didn't think about it because by the time the new writs hit, my woodworker was capped and I only watched it for one set of writs on my carp. Technically, all classes are blessed with it because you only get reimbursed for what part of the writ you complete. Is the risk "fair"? not really since some classes never see it,good thing to feedback though.