Aggro changes= annoying tbh [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Vydar

08-01-2007, 08:10 AM

Are they raid busters or group killers? No. Do they make zones more challenging? Well, as a scout, not really. I just switched to ignorant bliss/mental breach rather than the hemotoxin/fettering I was using and used elude more often, no real issues. Watching my caster brothers drop repeatedly because the assassin transfer got nerfed? (BTw, before some nay sayer who says its cuz we don't know how to play speaks up, no I wasn't the one transferring hate, or I wouldn't be reducing my own) That's sad. A class that's already tough to play without taking aggro is now even harder. Taunts got ninja nerfed (look at your taunts, they are about 200 less each in t7), which was NOT in the update notes and got snuck in, just as so many other nerfs are. What is going on here? Trying to make raids/zones really tough so that when RoK comes out it lasts longer than EoF did before another expansion is needed to keep people's attention? /sigh

KBern

08-01-2007, 10:18 AM

Our raid had no agro issues whatsoever last night. I am not saying you dont know how to play by that statement, but we expected the worst and no one even really noticed a change across the board.

Saratane

08-01-2007, 11:43 AM

I don't see where you get your reference about the Taunts nerfed by 200 . confront master pre and post GU is at the same exact same value ie 1126-1377.

lilmohi

08-01-2007, 03:35 PM

In fact my monk got some nice taunt upgrades with this update.

Vydar

08-01-2007, 03:36 PM

Saratane@Befallen wrote: <blockquote>I don't see where you get your reference about the Taunts nerfed by 200 . confront master pre and post GU is at the same exact same value ie 1126-1377.</blockquote> Mine appeared to be lower on my guardian alt. And the only aggro issues we had were with our warlocks/necro's stripping more often than before, and spamming every taunt + max burning for our guardian + assassin hate transfer wasn't doing it. Our coercer was sick and couldn't attend, we'll see what happens when he's there to help with the crowd control.

Eboluh

08-01-2007, 05:30 PM

I was running thru MMC castle with some friends and an incredible tank that I trust with my life! I play a lvl 70 warlock and everyone compliments me how well I play it. However, I did notice that the tank suddenly had a very hard time keeping agro off me, even using all my hate decreasers and doing everything I could to get them off me. Same thing with the assassin. The two of us had died more in one zone than during a raid last week. I say that I noticed a change as well as everyone else.

Windowlicker

08-01-2007, 05:52 PM

I took my Warlock through MMC last night with a properly setup group and had absolutely no problems whatsoever.DPS wise I was ranging between 1900 on singles, and 4k on multi's.I'm not spec'd for any form of hate reduction.

Cocytus

08-01-2007, 05:52 PM

I just find it annoying that the players said we don't want an aggro nerf, then sony lessened it and said "Yeah? Well, we hate our players. Stop whining and die tbh."

lilmohi

08-01-2007, 06:36 PM

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just find it annoying that the players said we don't want an aggro nerf, then sony lessened it and said "Yeah? Well, we hate our players. Stop whining and die tbh."</blockquote> Believe it or not the devs don't hate the players; we after all pay their salaries. In fact from what i've seen most of them are very passionate about making the game as fun and exciting for the players as they can. Just because players want something or don't want something doesn't mean they should automatically go try to please our whims. If they did Bards, brawlers, and rangers would be the best classes in the game, able to solo epics while sipping a martini... at least until the other classes started outposting them.<img src="/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />The fact is except for a few cases agro control has become trivial and the next tier the tanks will get taunt upgrades so it will probably get even worse. The devs obviously know this and are acting to keep the game fun & challenging. Is this the right move? Perhaps, and perhaps not, but to suggest they are doing this out of some kind of spite is just childish.

Controlor

08-01-2007, 06:44 PM

<cite>lilmohi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just find it annoying that the players said we don't want an aggro nerf, then sony lessened it and said "Yeah? Well, we hate our players. Stop whining and die tbh."</blockquote> Believe it or not the devs don't hate the players; we after all pay their salaries. In fact from what i've seen most of them are very passionate about making the game as fun and exciting for the players as they can. Just because players want something or don't want something doesn't mean they should automatically go try to please our whims. If they did Bards, brawlers, and rangers would be the best classes in the game, able to solo epics while sipping a martini... at least until the other classes started outposting them.<img src="/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />The fact is except for a few cases agro control has become trivial and the next tier the tanks will get taunt upgrades so it will probably get even worse. The devs obviously know this and are acting to keep the game fun & challenging. Is this the right move? Perhaps, and perhaps not, but to suggest they are doing this out of some kind of spite is just childish.</blockquote>QFE

Spyrit

08-01-2007, 07:27 PM

Did a run through Labs last night with a "lite" raid force. We did not have our normal MT and were a bit short on healers and DPS. We did not have any agro issues at all. Group was doing 15k - 20k with a few individuals pushing 2.5k on some fights. Seemed like a normal run to me.but ......... the loot was really crap!

Controlor

08-01-2007, 07:58 PM

I Just posted this onto the Guardian Forums:Here are the diff combos really and the % (based off M1)MT, 2 healers, 3 haters<ul><li>Dirge, Coercer, Swash/assassin (BEST) </li></ul>Increaser - 36 + 17 = 50% (capped)Transfer - 18 + 17 = 35%<ul><li>Dirge, Swash, Assassin</li></ul>Increaser = 36%Transfer - 18 + 18 = 36%<ul><li>Coercre, Swash, Assassin</li></ul>Increaser = 17%Transfer - 18 + 18 + 17 = 50% (capped)MT, 3 Healers, 2 Hates<ul><li>Dirge, Coercer</li></ul>Increaser - 36 + 17 = 50% capTransfer = 17%<ul><li>Dirge, Assassin/Swash</li></ul>Increaser = 36%Transfer = 18%<ul><li>Coercer, Assassin/Swash</li></ul>Increaser = 17%Transfer - 18 + 17 = 35%<ul><li>Assassin, Swash (WORST)</li></ul>Increaser = 0%Transfer - 18 + 18% = 36%*Notes*I dont know warrior or brawler aa's enough to say if they have modifiers to their hate. I think they do tho. I also dont know any gear that adjusts it.SK's as MT. Str line + Siphon Hate. If the SK has both of these lines than Add +10% hate increaser and +15% transfer (3% from 5 people in group).Pally's as MT. Str line + Amends If the Paladin took str line than add +10% hate increaser and +41% transfer. However for a paladin the groups would be over rated to have a swash/assassin in them. Instead replaced with a Warlock, Zerker, or some other high aoe dps person. *PS*For the Warriors and Brawlers if you have any AA that has % increase to either hate or transfer than would ask you post the aa line and % just so others can compare.

PaganSaint

08-01-2007, 08:28 PM

<cite>lilmohi wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact is except for a few cases agro control has become trivial and the next tier the tanks will get taunt upgrades so it will probably get even worse. The devs obviously know this and are acting to keep the game fun & challenging. Is this the right move? Perhaps, and perhaps not, but to suggest they are doing this out of some kind of spite is just childish.</blockquote>Yeah.Another person that doesn't understand how aggro is held. Taunts do not hold aggro, Taunts cement the fighters aggro that was gained through DPS and Hate Transfers. Using a Guardian for example, 50% hate modifier being applied, so fully raid MT buffed trying to hold aggro from his top parsers of anywhere from 2.4k sustained DPSers to 3k DPS sustained DPSers de-aggro'ing at a rate of roughly 300 per second.A Guardian will currently put out ~600 threat per second from taunt amounts alone. Taunts aren't going to cut it, lets see what does. This means that the Guardian needs to either do roughly 1.8k-2.4k sustained DPS or this Guardian will need to do 1.5k-2k sustained DPS with someone hate transferring at the old value of ~27% at around 2.4k-3k DPS.Now with the new transfer numbers, to hold the same DPS, a tank will be needing to up his DPS by the same amount of aggro that is being lost in the decreased transfer. That will be anywhere from 200-300 DPS he will be needing to make up.Taunts do not hold aggro. Detaunts don't get rid of aggro.DPS holds aggro. Hate transfers hold aggro.Looking at the poster above me quoting out 15k to 20k raid wide DPS, of course you're not going to be having problems with aggro at those low of numbers. Those low of numbers any MT worth his salt doesn't even need a transfer unless you have one person that is doing 20% of your raid DPS by himself.These changes will be fine for the heroic group runs; the small time raid guilds; the people who do not have players geared up, skilled out, and grouped properly. Once you put together a group of people that is skilled, geared and grouped properly you will start to see problems.With these new changes the classes that struggled to MT raids previously against higher DPS, the crusaders have a much worse time with aggro now. The Guardians who held onto their tank positions through survivability and although doing lower DPS, taunting for more with better aggro maintence/ripping tools will now be looking less attractive. Berserkers on the other hand, being able to dish out anywhere from 1.8k to 3k+ DPS depending upon encounter, player, gear and MT group setup will not notice a difference hardly at all.

Dasein

08-01-2007, 08:52 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>lilmohi wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact is except for a few cases agro control has become trivial and the next tier the tanks will get taunt upgrades so it will probably get even worse. The devs obviously know this and are acting to keep the game fun & challenging. Is this the right move? Perhaps, and perhaps not, but to suggest they are doing this out of some kind of spite is just childish.</blockquote>Yeah.Another person that doesn't understand how aggro is held.</blockquote>The devs have provided next to nothing about the mechanics of agro and hate, so you provide lots of speculation and no hard evidence. What we need is transparency for the agro/hate mechanics coming from the devs directly and backed up with some way to monitor hate and agro in game.

PaganSaint

08-01-2007, 09:16 PM

One point of damage equals one point of hate. One point of threat equals one point of hate. One point of de-aggro negates one point of hate.The percent modifiers from dirge and coercer buffs, warrior and crusader AAs effect how much hate is generated by each point of taunt. With maxed hate gain, 50%, one point of threat equals 1.5 hate. The percent modifiers for hate decreasers work like, with 5% hate decrease, one point of damage equals .95 points of hate.One of the only things the developers have been vague on in the past, and this has been confirmed as true in the recent past, is if 50% is the max hate gain modifier possible. I have not seen any real proof of this, but have heard multiple times from multiple sources that one point of healing/warding equals .33 points of hate.And while I would love an actualy number shown above the mobs head like for damage, wards, heals, etc for taunts, the only way to monitor that is if they showed how much threat each taunt generated like damage is displayed in the combat log and then a third party program like ACT had the functionality to see not only how much DPS that character is generating, but how much taunt hate the person has accrued.I would also like to see some sort of static numbers on how much hate debuffs create. Something like having a small taunt on every debuff and removing the non shown hate generated, only show how much threat the debuff's taunt is producing. But debuffs generate apparently such a miniscule amount of hate now unlike t5, that I don't think that would even be worth the programming head aches and bugs it would cause. Pair that with the above and you have the only way to monitor hate. So yes, we DO almost fully understand and have had revealed to us the mechanics of hate.

Gareorn

08-01-2007, 10:06 PM

<cite>lilmohi wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just because players want something or don't want something doesn't mean they should automatically go try to please our whims. If they did Bards, brawlers, and rangers would be the best classes in the game, able to solo epics while sipping a martini... at least until the other classes started outposting them.<img src="/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>That's weak. The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right. -- Mark Twain

Moonlance

08-02-2007, 12:49 AM

crazy idea/ I have to admit it sure would be nice to have a hate bar, right below the power bar to see how much hate we have relative to everyone else. Perhaps give tanks the ability to use a CA to "reveal" this for a 10 second period every minute or so, and keep it invisible at all other times. I know the game already keeps track of the raw numbers for hate, so this could be implimented. Might be game breaking, but hey, it would help with understanding hate. /crazy idea

DMIstar

08-02-2007, 12:57 AM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>So yes, we DO almost fully understand and have had revealed to us the mechanics of hate.</blockquote> Sorry, but i have to realy disagree with this.. as a whole The full mechanic of Aggro is realtivily unknown.. We learn from testing individual spells/combos and what gives reaction results.. What is primarily known: 1dmg = # threat 1heal = # threat Stuns = #threat Spells (yes non damage spells have a number of hate alloted to it.. Some Really high Some minimum But its there and known in game buffs/debuffs/hate/dehate/anything) Example Death March.. and Siphon Hate Initial proximity = #threat Just to many unknown numbers to say its fully grasped ;/

Controlor

08-02-2007, 01:41 AM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>So yes, we DO almost fully understand and have had revealed to us the mechanics of hate.</blockquote>I would have to go with the poster above on this one. What we know. <ol><li>1 dmg = 1 hate</li><li>1 threat = 1 hate</li><li>1 heal = less than 1 hate</li><li>Transfer and increaser cap at 50%.</li><li>1 deagro = -1 hate</li><li>How transfer and increaser effect the target both are being used on</li></ol> What we dont know. <ol><li>Does threat spells crit</li><li>Does deagro crit</li><li>Which acts first decreaser or transfer (for them warlocks)</li><li>How much hate is generated by each other buff/debuff</li><li>How much hate is generated by CC spells (Stun stifle daze mez)</li><li>Does 1 pt of pr loss = 1 pt of hate</li><li>The exact # of hate that heal gives</li><li>Ability to see through a parse who is on what order of the hate list (as you can with heal / dps)</li><li>How Sigil interacts with the hate cap. (Since its is a temp buff that transfers 32% from each person in group to paladin with 5 peeps that would add up to 160% being transfered to the paladin.)</li><li>How much agro that proximity will give (It should be greater than 0 in order to get agro in first place)</li></ol>There is just so much we dont know about agro. The fact we cant parse it is hard to tell. We can get a ball park feel at your agro for a given situation. However that takes time to learn as a tank. It also takes time to learn as a caster. Learning casting orders and getting a feel for situations.

Dasein

08-02-2007, 02:09 AM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>One point of damage equals one point of hate. One point of threat equals one point of hate. One point of de-aggro negates one point of hate.The percent modifiers from dirge and coercer buffs, warrior and crusader AAs effect how much hate is generated by each point of taunt. With maxed hate gain, 50%, one point of threat equals 1.5 hate. The percent modifiers for hate decreasers work like, with 5% hate decrease, one point of damage equals .95 points of hate.One of the only things the developers have been vague on in the past, and this has been confirmed as true in the recent past, is if 50% is the max hate gain modifier possible. I have not seen any real proof of this, but have heard multiple times from multiple sources that one point of healing/warding equals .33 points of hate.And while I would love an actualy number shown above the mobs head like for damage, wards, heals, etc for taunts, the only way to monitor that is if they showed how much threat each taunt generated like damage is displayed in the combat log and then a third party program like ACT had the functionality to see not only how much DPS that character is generating, but how much taunt hate the person has accrued.I would also like to see some sort of static numbers on how much hate debuffs create. Something like having a small taunt on every debuff and removing the non shown hate generated, only show how much threat the debuff's taunt is producing. But debuffs generate apparently such a miniscule amount of hate now unlike t5, that I don't think that would even be worth the programming head aches and bugs it would cause. Pair that with the above and you have the only way to monitor hate. So yes, we DO almost fully understand and have had revealed to us the mechanics of hate.</blockquote>How does threat correspond to hate list position? For example, a spell like Rescue has both a taunt component and a hate position increase - what's the relation between the two? What determines who the mob is actually targetting - for example, why does agro sometimes seem to bounce between characters, and other times the tank will have agro locked down without any trouble?

Besual

08-02-2007, 03:56 AM

<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I Just posted this onto the Guardian Forums:Here are the diff combos really and the % (based off M1)MT, 2 healers, 3 haters<ul><li>Dirge, Coercer, Swash/assassin (BEST) </li></ul>Increaser - 36 + 17 = 50% (capped)Transfer - 18 + 17 = 35%<ul><li>Dirge, Swash, Assassin</li></ul>Increaser = 36%Transfer - 18 + 18 = 36%<ul><li>Coercre, Swash, Assassin</li></ul>Increaser = 17%Transfer - 18 + 18 + 17 = 50% (capped)<snip></blockquote>I'm not sure, how to read this part of the patch notes: Coercer - Smirking Demeanor: Reduced hate increase component, but added a hate transfer component. This allows it provide additional hate transfer bonuses, even when the hate increase percentage cap is reached. The patch notes mention both parts: hate increaser and hate transfer. This could mean for dirge + coercer = increaser 36 + 17 = 53% (over capped) or coercer +swashy + assi = transfer 18 + 18 + 17 = 53% (over capped).

PaganSaint

08-02-2007, 04:30 AM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>How does threat correspond to hate list position? For example, a spell like Rescue has both a taunt component and a hate position increase - what's the relation between the two? What determines who the mob is actually targetting - for example, why does agro sometimes seem to bounce between characters, and other times the tank will have agro locked down without any trouble? </blockquote>Aggro bounces between characters because damage is not dealt at a perfect xxxx per second for their DPS. It is dealt through larger or smaller spikes that is measured to determine the damage done over time, hence damage per second not just damage being dealt. Large damage spikes can increase the average damage per second that that character is doing. Swinging aggro their way untill either the tank gets aggro back through taunts; spike damage of their own; ripping aggro back with position increasers untill the original characters hate per second drops back down; healers keep them alive till their average DPS/hate per second drops back below the tank's; they die; or they de-aggro. Hate is not generated past the initial informing of the mob to attack from just being near something, proximity pull and as soon as anything even a level one taunt is done to the mob, as long as no other action than proximity pulling was done by that original character or any effects on that character trigger, the mob will go to the person who used a level one taunt or sub level 6 debuff for an even lower threat creating device. Stuns/Roots do not cause any visible aggro from anything I have seen and tested, they do plant the mob next to whoever they were standing next to and the highest person on its hate list that is within auto attack range will be targetted. Stifle and Daze would be handled just like any other debuff, but in all likelihood a little more threat creating than most. As I said before some spells/debuffs create varying degrees of hate, only one I have seen, Death March, can actively be used to gain aggro. It would be great for all of the aggro that a spell/debuff generates be removed as an unseen and added as a taunt, so that we can see what exactly it is doing. And having taunts show in combat logs so they can be tracked by a parser. This is all stuff I have said. I do not believe taunts/detaunts can crit. Why? Because they have listed and shown all of the critical chances possible, spell, heal, melee and ranged. What would taunts/detaunts fall under? Logically it would be spell crit for SKs and the same for Paladins, while the rest of the fighters and for rogues would be based off of Melee Crit if that was true. Which would skew crusader taunts to be much more effective than they are. Possible but highly unlikely in my opinion.

Spangles

08-02-2007, 06:03 AM

Why some people seem to want to analyse the game down to the minutest detail? Personally, I would prefer not to know how aggro is managed in game. I want there to be some mystery to the game; I like the mystery factor, even when I am trying to get the best out of a raid. As a part time Raid Leader I appreciate how frustrating it can be when things just don't seem to go as expected, but I can think of little that is as boring that a scientifically calculated raid. I hear complaints that things are too easy in the game, that there is no challenge, then in the next breath I hear demands to know the detailed game mechanics so they can effectively cheat. Give it up and just play.Oh, and I feel I should add some more info to the discussion. We did Talendor a couple of weeks ago with our Guardian MT. We did it again last night with me tanking with my Shadowknight. I had more solid aggro control last night than the Guardian did a couple of weeks ago, even though he is more raid equipped than me. Yes, I am MT specced with the STR line and Siphon Hate, but hey, he is a MT specced Guardian.

Gareorn

08-02-2007, 09:32 AM

Scayre@Oasis wrote: <blockquote>crazy idea/ I have to admit it sure would be nice to have a hate bar, right below the power bar to see how much hate we have relative to everyone else. Perhaps give tanks the ability to use a CA to "reveal" this for a 10 second period every minute or so, and keep it invisible at all other times. I know the game already keeps track of the raw numbers for hate, so this could be implimented. Might be game breaking, but hey, it would help with understanding hate. /crazy idea </blockquote>We sort of have something like this. The color of your name changes as you gain hate. Red is bad. The only problem is that it doesn't reset between encounters. Once you turn red, you stay red until you log.

Yourbestfriend

08-02-2007, 09:44 AM

I like it, they made it so you can't have slackers if your raids wants to succeed, what it did was it made Coercer's a huge part of your agro which I think is a good thing. Then again my Coercer parses 2k Zonewides, so I could understand if your coercer doesn't dps then your agro will suck. In all honest I haven't noticed a change.

Dasein

08-02-2007, 11:13 AM

<cite>Spangles wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why some people seem to want to analyse the game down to the minutest detail? Personally, I would prefer not to know how aggro is managed in game. I want there to be some mystery to the game; I like the mystery factor, even when I am trying to get the best out of a raid. As a part time Raid Leader I appreciate how frustrating it can be when things just don't seem to go as expected, but I can think of little that is as boring that a scientifically calculated raid. I hear complaints that things are too easy in the game, that there is no challenge, then in the next breath I hear demands to know the detailed game mechanics so they can effectively cheat. Give it up and just play.Oh, and I feel I should add some more info to the discussion. We did Talendor a couple of weeks ago with our Guardian MT. We did it again last night with me tanking with my Shadowknight. I had more solid aggro control last night than the Guardian did a couple of weeks ago, even though he is more raid equipped than me. Yes, I am MT specced with the STR line and Siphon Hate, but hey, he is a MT specced Guardian.</blockquote>For intelligent gameplay to be possible, there must be tactical transparency - that is, one must understand and have visibility of the mechanics at work in order to formulate intelligent responses to events. Take a game like Chess: the entire game is transparent with both players being able to see the positions of all the pieces and both players knowing exactly what each piece can and cannot do. There is no 'mystery' to the game, and the game is better off for it. If one were to begin restricting knowledge - adding a fog of war if you will - it would make the game less strategic and more of a random/fastest type game, like rock-paper-scissors.

Gareorn

08-02-2007, 11:18 AM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spangles wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why some people seem to want to analyse the game down to the minutest detail? Personally, I would prefer not to know how aggro is managed in game. I want there to be some mystery to the game; I like the mystery factor, even when I am trying to get the best out of a raid. As a part time Raid Leader I appreciate how frustrating it can be when things just don't seem to go as expected, but I can think of little that is as boring that a scientifically calculated raid. I hear complaints that things are too easy in the game, that there is no challenge, then in the next breath I hear demands to know the detailed game mechanics so they can effectively cheat. Give it up and just play.Oh, and I feel I should add some more info to the discussion. We did Talendor a couple of weeks ago with our Guardian MT. We did it again last night with me tanking with my Shadowknight. I had more solid aggro control last night than the Guardian did a couple of weeks ago, even though he is more raid equipped than me. Yes, I am MT specced with the STR line and Siphon Hate, but hey, he is a MT specced Guardian.</blockquote>For intelligent gameplay to be possible, there must be tactical transparency - that is, one must understand and have visibility of the mechanics at work in order to formulate intelligent responses to events. Take a game like Chess: the entire game is transparent with both players being able to see the positions of all the pieces and both players knowing exactly what each piece can and cannot do. There is no 'mystery' to the game, and the game is better off for it. If one were to begin restricting knowledge - adding a fog of war if you will - it would make the game less strategic and more of a random/fastest type game, like rock-paper-scissors. </blockquote>Yea, if I wanted to play a console type game, I'd play it on a console. I have an Xbox and a PS3 and I find them very boring.

lilmohi

08-02-2007, 04:38 PM

<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>So yes, we DO almost fully understand and have had revealed to us the mechanics of hate.</blockquote>I would have to go with the poster above on this one. What we know. <ol><li>1 dmg = 1 hate</li><li>1 threat = 1 hate</li><li>1 heal = less than 1 hate</li><li>Transfer and increaser cap at 50%.</li><li>1 deagro = -1 hate</li><li>How transfer and increaser effect the target both are being used on</li></ol> What we dont know. <ol><li>Does threat spells crit</li><li>Does deagro crit</li><li>Which acts first decreaser or transfer (for them warlocks)</li><li>How much hate is generated by each other buff/debuff</li><li>How much hate is generated by CC spells (Stun stifle daze mez)</li><li>Does 1 pt of pr loss = 1 pt of hate</li><li>The exact # of hate that heal gives</li><li>Ability to see through a parse who is on what order of the hate list (as you can with heal / dps)</li><li>How Sigil interacts with the hate cap. (Since its is a temp buff that transfers 32% from each person in group to paladin with 5 peeps that would add up to 160% being transfered to the paladin.)</li><li>How much agro that proximity will give (It should be greater than 0 in order to get agro in first place)</li></ol>There is just so much we dont know about agro. The fact we cant parse it is hard to tell. We can get a ball park feel at your agro for a given situation. However that takes time to learn as a tank. It also takes time to learn as a caster. Learning casting orders and getting a feel for situations. </blockquote> Another thing we don't know much about is hate decay. Is it significant? Is it linear or exponential? I know i've seen a developer post that hate decay does exist, but never seen any hint about how fast it decays. However i do remember in eq1 warriors found that fast low damage weapons were better for holding agro than slow high damage weapons. Even if the slow weapon had a greater averge. Of course eq1 warriors only had kick for a CA so their ability to hold agro was almost purely weapon dependant (i suspect things might have changed since i last played however).As for Gareorn... Seriously have you read the forums? There are tons of 10+ page threads about people who think this class or that needs to be boosted or nerfed. And while some have legitimate concerns a lot are either operating on bad information or can't see the big picture beyond their own class. When rangers got the proc bug that allowed them to solo yelow heroics with ease, (I could solo a group of yellow heroics faster than a 3-4 person group) believe it or not there was a huge thread started by some rangers complaining that they still sucked and they absolutely had to get upgraded more. Of course that thread was dwarfed by the threads by other classes who saw the ranger dps numbers and wanted them nerfed. For the record at that time my ranger had a only one master crafted item (bow) and all the rest of his gear was treasured or below, however in a group using only 1-2 CA's i could usually out dps the wizi that i grouped with.

Dasein

08-02-2007, 05:22 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>How does threat correspond to hate list position? For example, a spell like Rescue has both a taunt component and a hate position increase - what's the relation between the two? What determines who the mob is actually targetting - for example, why does agro sometimes seem to bounce between characters, and other times the tank will have agro locked down without any trouble? </blockquote>Aggro bounces between characters because damage is not dealt at a perfect xxxx per second for their DPS. It is dealt through larger or smaller spikes that is measured to determine the damage done over time, hence damage per second not just damage being dealt. Large damage spikes can increase the average damage per second that that character is doing. Swinging aggro their way untill either the tank gets aggro back through taunts; spike damage of their own; ripping aggro back with position increasers untill the original characters hate per second drops back down; healers keep them alive till their average DPS/hate per second drops back below the tank's; they die; or they de-aggro. Hate is not generated past the initial informing of the mob to attack from just being near something, proximity pull and as soon as anything even a level one taunt is done to the mob, as long as no other action than proximity pulling was done by that original character or any effects on that character trigger, the mob will go to the person who used a level one taunt or sub level 6 debuff for an even lower threat creating device. Stuns/Roots do not cause any visible aggro from anything I have seen and tested, they do plant the mob next to whoever they were standing next to and the highest person on its hate list that is within auto attack range will be targetted. Stifle and Daze would be handled just like any other debuff, but in all likelihood a little more threat creating than most. As I said before some spells/debuffs create varying degrees of hate, only one I have seen, Death March, can actively be used to gain aggro. It would be great for all of the aggro that a spell/debuff generates be removed as an unseen and added as a taunt, so that we can see what exactly it is doing. And having taunts show in combat logs so they can be tracked by a parser. This is all stuff I have said. I do not believe taunts/detaunts can crit. Why? Because they have listed and shown all of the critical chances possible, spell, heal, melee and ranged. What would taunts/detaunts fall under? Logically it would be spell crit for SKs and the same for Paladins, while the rest of the fighters and for rogues would be based off of Melee Crit if that was true. Which would skew crusader taunts to be much more effective than they are. Possible but highly unlikely in my opinion. </blockquote>You didn't really answer the question, so let me rephrase it a bit: We know there are two different parts of the agro/hate mechanic: threat, which accumulates based on taunts, damage, heals, debuffs and other abilities and hate list position, which seems to be affected by a few abilities like Rescue. The question is, how does threat affect hate list position, and does hate list position or total threat determine who has agro?

PaganSaint

08-02-2007, 05:30 PM

Flamewi

08-02-2007, 05:54 PM

The aggro changes in this latest GU absolutely sucked <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Aranieq

08-02-2007, 06:51 PM

I moved my comments to the GU37 feedback thread.. sorry for double post.

Zabjade

08-02-2007, 07:22 PM

The solution that I see is have a couple of Monks join your raids and groups, we are the aggro eaters, or are we still on the Raid/Guild "untouchable" list?

Aven Elonis

08-02-2007, 11:08 PM

MiS after LU 37 - +5 - 7 additional wizard deaths, +4 additional ranger deaths, +2 necro deaths (FD with LB for the win), no additional raid wipes.Thinking wizards and warlocks needs something to get them back to the normal level of deaths on a raid. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Gareorn

08-03-2007, 09:41 AM

I didn't notice much of a difference last night. But then again, it was just a 3 group Harla Dar run and I was playing the Dirge. We'll see how different it is in a tough zone with no Dirge.

Vydar

08-03-2007, 02:28 PM

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote>The solution that I see is have a couple of Monks join your raids and groups, we are the aggro eaters, or are we still on the Raid/Guild "untouchable" list?</blockquote> Not an option. PvP server.

Shankalot

08-03-2007, 03:43 PM

hmmm i dont aggree with monk joining the wizzies untill they can control thier aggro but to keep them under control id reccomen a bruiser, the 20% hate increase/decrease is nice and since it just modifies the actual value it statcks with any other form.for example, my taunt used to be about 1100-1300 or so now its just about 1350-1700 and it would work same with deaggros, also affects procs that increase and lower hate, so mages could try for 1 de aggro peice and have the extra increwase to it, and raid tanks with the proc hate gear would get a significant hate boost.a pair of gloves i own increases hate by 700 now they do 840.but id have to say for mage dps particularly wiz/lock thier casting speed increase would be nice i belive its aroung 18%

Dejah

08-03-2007, 04:53 PM

<cite>Besual wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not sure, how to read this part of the patch notes: Coercer - Smirking Demeanor: Reduced hate increase component, but added a hate transfer component. This allows it provide additional hate transfer bonuses, even when the hate increase percentage cap is reached. The patch notes mention both parts: hate increaser and hate transfer. This could mean for dirge + coercer = increaser 36 + 17 = 53% (over capped) or coercer +swashy + assi = transfer 18 + 18 + 17 = 53% (over capped). </blockquote> Hate Transfers don't cap in that way. The transfer cap is on the person giving the hate, not the person receiving the hate. In the situation you mentioned the transfer cap is not reached for any of the three seperate hate transfers.As far as I know, the only way possible to hit the hate transfer cap is when a Paladin's Amends (41% hate siphon) is stacked with another hate transfer.

Wilin

08-03-2007, 05:38 PM

Dehah@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote><cite>Besual wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not sure, how to read this part of the patch notes: Coercer - Smirking Demeanor: Reduced hate increase component, but added a hate transfer component. This allows it provide additional hate transfer bonuses, even when the hate increase percentage cap is reached. The patch notes mention both parts: hate increaser and hate transfer. This could mean for dirge + coercer = increaser 36 + 17 = 53% (over capped) or coercer +swashy + assi = transfer 18 + 18 + 17 = 53% (over capped). </blockquote> Hate Transfers don't cap in that way. The transfer cap is on the person giving the hate, not the person receiving the hate. In the situation you mentioned the transfer cap is not reached for any of the three seperate hate transfers.As far as I know, the only way possible to hit the hate transfer cap is when a Paladin's Amends (41% hate siphon) is stacked with another hate transfer.</blockquote>Do you have a link where that was officially stated? I'm not saying that I doubt you, I'm just saying that I've never seen that clearly stated. And to me at least, it makes more sense from a game design view, to cap 50% hate on the receiver. Otherwise, you could theoretically end up with 5 people giving half their hate to 1 person.Anyway, if anyone has a concrete reference on this, please let us know.

NiteWolfe

08-03-2007, 08:03 PM

Dehah@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote><cite>Besual wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not sure, how to read this part of the patch notes: Coercer - Smirking Demeanor: Reduced hate increase component, but added a hate transfer component. This allows it provide additional hate transfer bonuses, even when the hate increase percentage cap is reached. The patch notes mention both parts: hate increaser and hate transfer. This could mean for dirge + coercer = increaser 36 + 17 = 53% (over capped) or coercer +swashy + assi = transfer 18 + 18 + 17 = 53% (over capped). </blockquote> Hate Transfers don't cap in that way. The transfer cap is on the person giving the hate, not the person receiving the hate. In the situation you mentioned the transfer cap is not reached for any of the three seperate hate transfers.As far as I know, the only way possible to hit the hate transfer cap is when a Paladin's Amends (41% hate siphon) is stacked with another hate transfer.</blockquote> Pretty sure your wrong there The cap for hate transfer is 50% to the person recieveing the hate.

Zabjade

08-03-2007, 08:21 PM

Vydar@Vox wrote: <blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote>The solution that I see is have a couple of Monks join your raids and groups, we are the aggro eaters, or are we still on the Raid/Guild "untouchable" list?</blockquote> Not an option. PvP server. </blockquote> Buiser might have a tool or two as well.

Moonlance

08-04-2007, 02:45 AM

Dehah@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote><cite>Besual wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not sure, how to read this part of the patch notes: Coercer - Smirking Demeanor: Reduced hate increase component, but added a hate transfer component. This allows it provide additional hate transfer bonuses, even when the hate increase percentage cap is reached. The patch notes mention both parts: hate increaser and hate transfer. This could mean for dirge + coercer = increaser 36 + 17 = 53% (over capped) or coercer +swashy + assi = transfer 18 + 18 + 17 = 53% (over capped). </blockquote> Hate Transfers don't cap in that way. The transfer cap is on the person giving the hate, not the person receiving the hate. In the situation you mentioned the transfer cap is not reached for any of the three seperate hate transfers.As far as I know, the only way possible to hit the hate transfer cap is when a Paladin's Amends (41% hate siphon) is stacked with another hate transfer.</blockquote>Per dev: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=373033�" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...33�</a> Hate transfer caps at 50%. Hate transferred to the tank caps at 50%.